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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 1 Nov 2006

EU Regional Maritime Policy: Presentation.

Apologies have been received from Deputies Allen and Dan Wallace.

The first item on our agenda is a discussion on the future direction of EU regional maritime policy. I welcome Dr. Peter Heffernan, chief executive officer, and Mr. Geoffrey O'Sullivan, international affairs manager, of the Marine Institute. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Dr. Heffernan is welcome to make his PowerPoint presentation. I will then open the discussion to members of the committee.

Dr. Peter Heffernan

I thank the Chairman and the committee for inviting the Marine Institute to address today's session on this very important development in international maritime affairs. Rather than working laboriously through the text of the Green Paper it would be more beneficial to set the context within which the Green Paper was generated and the role Ireland played in that process. I will also give an overview of the high level ingredients of the strategy and outline for the committee the planned consultation exercise to prepare a national response. I will be happy to take ongoing questions as I work through the presentation. I am not married to PowerPoint technology.

When the new European Commission was put in place early in January 2005, Commissioner Borg, at the behest of the leader of the Commission, undertook to prepare an all-embracing marine policy. This was a first at European level and recognised the fact that an all-embracing maritime policy aimed at developing a dynamic marine economy in harmony with the marine environment, supported by sound marine scientific research and technology which allows human beings to continue to reap the rich harvest in the oceans in a sustainable manner, was required. The Green Paper was published in June this year and one of the first briefing sessions on it took place when Commissioner Borg was at Dublin Castle for the law of the sea conference. I have copied through the secretariat the Commissioner's address in which he stated that the Green Paper did not seek to answer questions instantaneously but rather to set out at a high level the strategic questions European maritime policy should address.

The Green Paper asked openly for stakeholders and member states to consider what has been proposed, ask questions, advise whether it fits and provide feedback. A consultation period of one year was set out, which is one of the most generous I have seen, due to the complexity of the subject matter and governance embraced in the Green Paper. The Commissioner was kind enough to acknowledge the lead role Ireland played in the genesis of the initiative to develop an all-embracing, over-arching approach to maritime policy. In particular, he acknowledged the role during the Irish EU Presidency of the Marine Institute, which held a major conference in Galway attended by more than 500 policy-makers, scientists and industry representatives. The Commissioner advised that marine science in Europe must step up to the great challenges of governance and sustainably taking forward the opportunities marine resources represent. He acknowledged that the Commission shared the vision Ireland provided in this area.

The Galway Declaration asked member states and the Commission to ensure the recognition of the crucial role of oceans to climate, the carbon cycle and the very essence of life on Earth. According to the declaration, marine industries have a significant contribution to make to achieving the social and economic development goals of the Lisbon Agenda which science must underpin at European and member state levels. The declaration set out that Europe's next significant opportunity to advance the Lisbon Agenda would be in deciding the framework research programme.

In his speech at Dublin Castle, the Commissioner acknowledged the fact that the vision of the Green Paper was one which originated in Ireland. In 2002, the Marine Institute published a vision for the maritime sector in Ireland which contemplated a thriving maritime economy existing in harmony with the ecosystem and supported by the delivery of excellence in our science services. The vision was developed into a challenge for research at European level in a presentation we made to the European Parliament in Brussels in 2004 and evolved into one of a thriving maritime economy existing in harmony with the environment and supported by excellence in European research.

I should have asked members who have to leave at 2.30 p.m. if they would like to ask questions before they go.

Not at the moment.

I would like to come in on one point as I am very innocent. I am not sure what the basic concept of the Marine Institute's remit is. Can that be explained in a couple of sentences to ensure I understand what it does as opposed to what other organisations do?

Dr. Heffernan

The institute has two general roles. We undertake a significant amount of scientific research for the Government in partnership with Europe. For example, we provide the scientific advice on €1.4 billion worth of European fish stocks every year. We provide scientific advice on food safety and food chain safety for all marine food products grown in the marine environment and fund competitive research programmes at national level which involve the public and private sectors, nationally and internationally. We plan for the future to advise the Government where investments in marine research and innovation should be targeted and established. We carry out our role in a manner which is unique in Europe as we analyse from the market back. We analyse the global market opportunities associated with the diversity of marine businesses in place.

To put the matter in context, in Ireland the marine ocean economy is worth €3 billion per annum across the services, manufacturing and technology sectors. The global market is worth €4,300 billion, with strong growth trends expected in the majority of sectors through to the end of the decade. That global market analysis is a most cited document in the Green Paper and has established a framework in which to judge not only science and its contributions but also the governance challenge. The analysis outlines for Europe the reality of its maritime resources as expressed in business and commerce terms and highlights the underachievement at European and national level in unlocking potential. However, it also identifies the technological, scientific and governance challenges to wisely take forward those opportunities in balance.

Is there any area in which the work of the Marine Institute overlaps with that of Bord Iascaigh Mhara?

Dr. Heffernan

We work closely with Bord Iascaigh Mhara across the entire area of food. In any matters relating to marine food, we are natural partners. As the Senator is aware, Bord Iascaigh Mhara works effectively in the development of the commercial sector and the marketing of marine food products. We provide advice for all stakeholders which is published every year on the state of stocks and the environmental aspects of the resource within which stocks are grown. We also articulate the opportunities in Ireland in growing increasingly niche green-blue high-quality products in that environment which we can assure consumers is of extremely good quality.

I apologise for intervening at this point but I am obliged to attend the meeting of the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources in respect of the matter relating to the drift net fishing of salmon. As I understand it, salmon do not come under the aegis of the Common Fisheries Policy. The Marine Institute has a role with regard to freshwater fish. We also discussed the work on salmon of Dr. Whelan who is an international authority on the matter. Do fish and salmon farming come within the ambit of marine policy?

Dr. Heffernan

Yes. We provide a range of environmental, management and technical services in the broad area of finfish farming.

Is it part of European maritime policy?

Dr. Heffernan

Yes. It would be difficult to find any commercial or governance activity that is not potentially embraced by the Green Paper. It is wide-ranging and of potentially broad significance to member states.

I thank Dr. Heffernan.

Dr. Heffernan has stated the Marine Institute provides scientific advice for the Government. Salmon may not come within its remit but surely it would have given advice on that aspect of the matter.

Dr. Heffernan

In case I gave the wrong impression, scientific matters relating to salmon come within the institute's remit.

However, not the European policy.

I apologise for interrupting.

Dr. Heffernan

I welcome interventions as they arise. It is easier for me to answer questions relevant to matters as we discuss them.

As a small nation and a relative newcomer to the area of marine science in Europe, we are proud of the fact that a European Commissioner will come to Ireland to acknowledge the influence this country and our organisation have had in promoting a broader vision of the reality of the marine resource as it has developed into the Green Paper. One of the important aspects of considering that resource is trying to place a value on it. Any student of economics will appreciate that much of the value of the marine resource escapes the collective capabilities of statisticians at the moment. A great number of marine activities in Ireland, in many other member states and at European level, fall between the existing pillars of statistical collection. That does a disservice to the sector and is an impediment to its prioritisation. We have made our best effort at European level to quantify the market place as it exists at the moment, to which end we have published Marine Industries Global Market Analysis and a report on the reality of the Irish ocean economy in its diversity. Copies are available to committee members from the secretariat.

Arising from the Irish Presidency of the EU, we advised Government that it was in the national interest to prioritise, at a European level, marine research across the seven or eight main areas that have been structured for European support for research. We did that in the knowledge of the evolving picture in Ireland and our experience of working at European level over the past decade. We are glad to report that the Government took on board our advice and was successful in negotiating the ingredient within the framework programme at EU level whereby the marine would be treated as an important horizontal focal area for research management at a European level, across all the activity areas.

It is vital when planning for the future that science responds to our national needs but has a happy and convenient mechanism for partnership with science at the European level. Ireland is well positioned to take that opportunity in the next seven years. This approach to the planning of science appealed to the Commission, in the context of a maritime policy, in the way it connected with the market and embraced the diversity of existing businesses and in the opportunities to which it can give rise in the future, while recognising that it cannot exist in isolation.

The ocean amounts to 70% of our planet. Having heard this week how topical the climate change agenda is, it is vital we understand that the ocean is the biggest driver of our planetary climate systems. The area west of Ireland, as I will point out later on, is an exceptionally important one in the European context. A global market of more than €4 trillion, of which more than 50% is made up by the service sector, 30% by natural resources, such as harvesting and growing seafood, 12% by manufacturing, 1% by education and 1% by research provides a quantum within which maritime policy can be positioned.

In terms of bringing forward plans whereby science can stand up to the challenge of supporting society's opportunity to develop that resource and manage it wisely, Ireland is at the fore at European level. The main ingredients of the plan at national level are summarised in the Government's Strategy for Science, Technology and Innovation 2006-2013, which was published in June 2006. It summarises the main ingredients for a national strategy from 2007 to 2013 set out in the Marine Institute publication, Sea Change — A Marine Knowledge, Research and Innovation Strategy for Ireland, which identifies and targets what needs to be done in transforming, and supporting the transformation of, existing businesses, in supporting the governance challenges associated with managing the marine resource, in taking forward new opportunities in areas such as health food, biotechnology, functional foods and ocean energy and in continuing critical investment in infrastructure.

That is the backdrop to Ireland's role in the development of the maritime Green Paper. An Irish expert group from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will have contributed to the drafting of the Green Paper, along with member state representatives from all countries and the Commission.

I will go through the Green Paper, highlight its seven main ingredients, draw the committee's attention to some of the early high priority areas suggested therein and describe the national process to prepare Ireland's response. A main approach taken by the Green Paper is to ask questions of the European Union and its member states rather than to prescribe answers. The first of the paper's seven main chapters asks why a European maritime policy is needed, the second addresses the challenge to retain Europe's leadership in sustainable maritime development and the third deals with maximising the quality of life issues arising in coastal regions in particular. The fourth main chapter deals with providing the tools to manage relations with the oceans, the fifth addresses the issue of maritime governance, the sixth relates to reclaiming Europe's maritime heritage and reaffirming its maritime identity and the seventh outlines the Commission's proposals on the way forward.

Returning to the matter of first principles and why there should be a maritime policy, it may surprise committee members that half of Europe's land is under the ocean. This provides a significant drive. Putting it in a broader context, while 70% of the globe is submerged, 90% of land over which Ireland has sovereignty — more than 200 million acres — is under water. The many internal drivers for the development of a European policy are summarised in our powerpoint presentation, but there are also external drivers, particularly the evolution of governance mechanisms in jurisdictions like the United States of America, Australia and Japan, which have mature maritime policies, and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, under which Ireland's territorial claims will be adjudicated. The convention will be important in the near future because it will present opportunities at national and European levels. In the Commission's view, now is the right time to ask whether a maritime policy is required.

Regarding the retention of Europe's leadership in sustainable maritime development, the Green Paper points out the reality of the maritime economy, the history of Europe as a leader in shipbuilding, exploration, fishing developments and other maritime activities, and asks whether Europe is still a leader, can it continue in that role and what must it do. The paper emphasises the importance of the marine environment and its protection for reasons relating to quality of life and the sustainability of relevant industries. The paper poses the challenge that science must face at European and member state levels, namely, to support the ambition of the paper, the Lisbon Agenda and other pertinent policies.

The Green Paper poses questions on maximising the quality of life in coastal regions. Given that a significant proportion of Europe's population lives within 50 km of the sea, how well is it positioned to manage the attractiveness of living on the coast and to retain the value of living in such regions while balancing the pressures placed on the very thing people want to live beside and appreciate?

I draw the committee's attention to the map on the screen which shows northern Europe from a southern perspective. This challenges our ability to look upside down, although not intentionally. As we hear about studies of climate change we have become familiar with the ozone holes above the North Pole and Antarctica. How will we notice and experience changes in climate? Media reports this week have drawn our attention to this issue. We will experience flood events, more extreme weather events and changes in the distribution of species. When one considers that 70% of the planet is under the ocean, that 90% of Ireland is ocean territory west of the country and that the biggest influence on European climate is the ocean west of Ireland and when one appreciates that the cold northern ocean species and the warm southern ocean species meet on a line west of Ireland the geographic importance of Ireland and the area west of us to understanding the rate at which climate change is happening becomes clear. When one considers the actual impact as measured through the fish species and the environment, we see that Ireland is in a very important position and has a very significant opportunity to be a global player in this science in the future. That is real knowledge economy action for Ireland in the future.

The graph members can now see shows the Gulf Stream. This is a warm water current which comes from the Caribbean, flows by Ireland within a hand's reach of our shore and continues past Norway. It goes down deep. One of the surprising aspects of the ocean is that the same water can move in opposite directions at different depths. While surface water is moving from south to north the deep water layers can be moving in a different direction.

Dr. Heffernan has touched on something in which I am interested. I live by the sea and I have been interested recently to see dolphins in the Irish Sea, which I had never seen before. We are also fishing for razor fish off Howth, which we did not do in the past. Dr. Heffernan is touching on things I have noticed as a layman watching the sea. If Dr. Heffernan had a magic wand is there one change he would love to see happen? He refers to the possibility of Ireland as a global player. I do not think we have made full use of the waters around our coast.

I am not sure I understand him when he says 90% of Ireland is under the ocean. Is he making a 300 km territorial claim? There was talk some years ago of Ireland claiming Rockall as part of the national territory. I believe this had something to do with oil exploration. Does that claim come into Dr. Heffernan's area?

Dr. Heffernan

Can Senator Quinn clarify his first question regarding a magic wand and the change I would like to see. Does he refer to climate change?

I was not thinking of a wand with quite that much magic. Is there a decision, perhaps at European level, which Dr. Heffernan would like to see taken if he had a magic wand?

Dr. Heffernan

I would like to see Ireland achieve its potential. Given that 90% of our national territorial asset consists of ocean, I would like us to accept the challenge of being able to develop that potential wisely. In so doing, we will have to become world-class performers in key areas, which will include the provision of the best scientific advice in the world on the management of our territorial asset.

I have a graphic I can show the committee later to demonstrate that Ireland's area includes the land asset under the ocean which is claimed according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. In some areas, the asset stretches north-west of the coast to nearly 600 km. I will show the committee the different delineations of the area on a graph shortly. I will also describe the mapping work done on the resource to inform Ireland's claim.

What about Britain? I presume Ireland and Britain, as islands, are the member states with the most significant land masses under the ocean. How extensive is Britain's? Has the institute calculated the proportion of Ireland's combined land and under-sea area in the context of Europe as a whole?

Dr. Heffernan

I will ask my colleague to work out the maths and inform the committee when I get to the graph.

Mr. Brendan Tuohy, the Secretary General of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, was before the committee a couple of weeks ago to discuss the seabed survey. Some of the survey's subject matter is undetermined. A claim has been made which means the survey cannot be finalised. Is it the case that when the end of the continental shelf has been determined, we will be in a position to make a better claim?

Dr. Heffernan

Ireland, France and the UK have agreed delineation lines in the areas that overlap. Subject to correction, these coastal states have made the first such submissions under the UN convention setting out an agreed position on land delineation. There are other areas the Secretary General will have pointed out to the committee which are still open to determination and are the subject of counter-claims from Iceland and the Faroe Islands. The UN will seek to have coastal states agree a position before it is submitted for a decision under the UN convention. Ireland is to the fore in preparing, mapping and submitting the relevant material for the actions in question and has been very pro-active in this area.

When the current land survey is completed what will be the benefits of having spent tens of millions of euro on it? Will there be mineral rights or will there be benefits for fishermen?

Dr. Heffernan

If members try to imagine attempting to carry out any project or make a planning or development decision in respect of land above the water without maps or ordnance survey data, they will realise how difficult it would be to manage an underwater land mass ten times as large on the same basis. The seabed map is a foundation asset to facilitate wise development. It places at the disposal of Ireland the best three-dimensional map in the world on the basis of which to take things forward. If I were in a betting game, I would like to face the odds with the best information available. We will have the best map to explore coral at a depth of a mile. We are all familiar with coral but only from scuba diving or films of scuba diving. One cannot scuba dive at a depth of a mile where the pressure is great enough to crush a person to death. However, these organisms live at this and greater depths, which offers potential for enzyme and protein production for use in functional food areas, health foods, pharmaceutical production and medicine. That offers potential in the production of enzymes and proteins that can be used in the production of functional and health foods, as well as in the pharmaceutical and medical areas. We are preparing a detailed plan on how Ireland might discover these resources. Having the best map to facilitate zoning in on particular areas is, in the view of our international advisers, a tremendous and almost unique asset.

Therefore, the Marine Institute has already taken the next step in anticipating that those territories will be suitable.

Dr. Heffernan

Absolutely.

Is it money well spent from the institute's standpoint?

Dr. Heffernan

Yes.

Deputy Costello inquired about the position relative to Britain. In the European context, Ireland is in the smaller quartile of countries with land above water. If land below water was included, Ireland would be in the upper quartile. As a result of territories it holds around the Azores, only Portugal has a higher proportion of land than Ireland which is under water. No member state other than Portugal has anything approaching 90% of land under water. I often ask how Ireland, as a maritime nation, is relatively unaware of these proportions. Most Irish citizens are well educated but few of them are aware of the land we own that is under water. I do not know whether this is because the ocean makes such land invisible and man has traditionally had difficulty visualising the ocean. With new technological developments, in the next decade mankind will map, visualise and see more of the ocean than it has done in the past 100 years.

I will profile for the committee one such development. It is proposed to develop on the sea floor a network of broadband cabled, permanent technologies that will provide information on the environment, early warnings of seismic activity and a real-time picture of what is happening in the ocean. It will be possible to put such a network in place within a decade. We are playing a role in Europe to ensure Ireland will obtain a node on that network which will stretch from north of Norway in the Arctic to the Mediterranean and on to the Black Sea.

I understand the need for early warnings of seismic activity. However, will Dr. Heffernan outline some of the practical benefits in putting in place such a network?

Dr. Heffernan

In the context of the Gulf Stream, as it passes Ireland, and events that may be occurring as a result of climate change, we have the advantage of possessing good scientific records that date back decades. In fisheries such records date back over 100 years. Given the pace of climate change and the effect it will have on the food chain, by the time changes in fish species are identified, changes will already have occurred in what those species eat. Being able to detect change earlier by use of sensor technologies that will be permanently available through the proposed network will help provide a much more accurate and real picture of what is happening. If I were to put it in common terms, it is well accepted that mankind knows more about the surface of the moon than about what is on the floor of the deep ocean. In the next decade, however, it will be possible to bridge that gap. This will be done, on a global scale, as part of a national and international exercise. That is why Irish participation in European programmes is so important in the context of the opportunities that will arise for us regarding the marine resource.

Is it Dr. Heffernan's experience that where, for example, exploration companies make approaches to the Government, that mapping would have had to have been carried out previously? It would obviously be a bonus if the floor of the sea was mapped. Would such mapping be requested immediately? Is it a major consideration for exploration companies?

Dr. Heffernan

It would be a significant asset to them in narrowing matters down in the prospecting activity in which they engage. It would also be useful in the context of cable laying or any technology involving the need to anchor structures to the sea floor, which could apply in several different sectors. Having such a map gives Ireland a competitive advantage.

I presume protection will be built in so that there is no exploitation of whatever resources are found by private corporations. Companies do not plough hundreds of millions of euro into exploration unless they will benefit substantially from it. Governments right across Europe seem to have allowed that to happen in past decades without them benefiting from the exploration. Will that form part of the discussion paper?

Dr. Heffernan

Yes. One of the key areas at European level is concerned with harmonising maritime governance. The Green Paper asks all readers and member states in particular, what their view is of the balance between the competence of the European Commission to regulate maritime activities, such as the licensing of offshore activities, and that of the member states. It asks what the existing balance is and what the desired balance is. All activities licensed for development of the sea floor at the moment are under Irish jurisdiction. Ireland is much better positioned to so govern with the deeper, better map it is preparing for itself and with a greater knowledge of the nature of those resources and their potential, as well as of the balance between the national and the private good. One governs better with knowledge.

When Dr. Heffernan talks about mapping the ocean he refers to a visual map. Does he also mean digging into the underlying deposits, be they clay, rock or other material? Will the exercise determine the type of soil underneath the ocean as well as map the contours?

Dr. Heffernan

That is a very good question. The national research vessel, the Celtic Explorer, is equipped with technologies that can measure, using soundwaves, the height and depth of the sea floor or its jaggedness. It then produces a map as of the mountains above land. It can also acoustically penetrate the sea floor to extract information about the surface geology. Other techniques include seismically penetrating shallow layers to produce information on the underlying geology. A process known as ground truthing can be deployed in soft sediment, which can be determined from the sound echo, in which a “coal bucket”, a type of sampling device, can be dropped to a depth of, say, four miles to take a sample which can then be analysed. The whole purpose is to get as much information that can be used by as many potential users as possible.

Parallel work builds on that asset and we have earned more than €5 million in research funding for scientific activity on the basis of having the map already. It will not only reveal whether the sea bed consists of gravel, sand or mud but will develop the methodology to describe its ecological community. On land one can describe meadows, different types of forest or whether land is blanket bog. Equally, in the ocean techniques have been developed, with Ireland at the forefront, to describe the living community that rests on or lives in the mapped area.

The maps must be enormously valuable to gas and oil exploration if they can describe geology as well as contours.

Dr. Heffernan

They are a significant national asset and are also useful for governance, licensing and the identification of potentially new areas of exploration into the future.

Do they provide the institute with shares in Shell and other companies?

Dr. Heffernan

No.

The seabed survey, in which the institute and the Department were key players, began in 1999. Dr. Heffernan referred to a figure of €5 million, but what financial reward has the State accrued from the survey? Eventually we will spent €80 million in this regard. Will Dr. Heffernan give an example of a spin-off?

Dr. Heffernan

Significant spin-offs will appear in the medium term. The Government has approved the nearshore component of the map's completion which will have more immediate and tangible spin-offs. If one can envisage software companies developing software devices, products and services based on the best digital map in the world, one is entering the area in which some of the spin-offs will accrue. I can quantify some of them such as Ireland's earnings of €5 million from research, a necessary activity for Ireland, the level of which will grow in the years ahead. The purpose of the exercise was to provide the baseline map upon which added value would be layered and grown. It would have been a challenge for the ordnance surveyors of the 1800s to outline the immediate economic spin-offs that would accrue from their maps between 1845 and 1850, but those maps proved invaluable.

I do not know about that analogy. Dr. Heffernan does not have an example.

Dr. Heffernan

The quantum is limited. My colleague points out that one could classify environmental protection as valuable. In that regard three special areas have been identified in the maps, including deep-water coral reefs, that warrant State intervention to protect and preserve national and international assets.

The sixth main chapter of the Green Paper addresses the matter of reclaiming of Europe's maritime heritage and reaffirming its maritime identity. Its self-explanatory objectives are to seek to highlight how our citizens are not always well informed about the importance of the oceans, to identify the opportunity presented by a better informed European citizen to introduce appropriate governance measures and to ask whether there is a role for better education at European level.

The final section of the Green Paper focuses on describing for stakeholders the consultative process. An exceptionally long consultative period from June this year to the end of June 2007 is being allowed. My PowerPoint presentation details the website where observations are logged. In the opinion of the Commission and its authors, the Green Paper will be considered a success if it forges a consensus among stakeholders — the member states and citizens — that the European Union must examine the oceans and seas in an integrated manner to retain their resource base and remain competitive in maritime affairs.

I will describe the designations associated with Ireland's offshore territories. We have the 12-mile limit, the more familiar 200 nautical mile limit for fisheries purposes and the outer continental shelf, which is the area to which Ireland will seek to lay claim under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

Is that shown in lighter green?

Dr. Heffernan

It is the largest area.

Can Dr. Heffernan read the headlines on the map? I cannot see them.

Dr. Heffernan

The white area nearest the shore shows internal waters, the next dark area represents the 12 nautical mile limit of the historically designated territorial seas and the next is the 200 mile limit of the EU exclusive fishing zone. The most extreme is the outer continental shelf, the land area over which Ireland would seek to claim sovereignty under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

How much of the area outlined on the map has been mapped in the way Dr. Heffernan has described?

Dr. Heffernan

At present more than 87% of the area shown has been mapped. It is a phenomenal area.

It is phenomenal for that amount of money.

Why is the extended area the shape it is? Why does it not mirror the line of the coast?

Dr. Heffernan

It relates to the continental shelf, when the land as it goes off our shore drops very dramatically into the deep ocean and the point at which that happens. That does not follow the contour of the coast. It follows a very different contour. That influences the claim, as laid down by the parameters and rules under the UN convention.

How much of a commitment does Dr. Heffernan expect continental EU countries to have to an issue like this? Until I heard him speak about the considerable land mass under the ocean around our shores I was not aware of it. I studied geography at school but not to the extent explained by Dr. Heffernan. It sounds very exciting. Will we get the commitment of the EU to the kind of work Dr. Heffernan would like to see happen? He is very enthused by it all.

Dr. Heffernan

I do not know. I cannot read how the member states will respond. One would be surprised how many members of the European network of marine scientists are from non-coastal states and the significant role many of them play in this area. I am advised that 21 of the 25 member states have coastline. That may address some of the balance.

Have we any oil or gas off Donegal?

Dr. Heffernan

I am not competent to answer that question.

Who wrote the Green Paper?

Dr. Heffernan

The Green Paper was drafted by an expert group led by the Commission services. The Director-General of Maritime Affairs and the Director-General of Environment were central. An advisory paper from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to the committee gives some detail and background. Member states had an involvement, in an expert group capacity, in advising on the drafting of the Green Paper.

I like the quotations, particularly the final one from "Julius Caesar".

On such a full tide are we now afloat

And we must take the current when it serves

Or lose our ventures.

It is interesting to see the outer part of the continental shelf. What about going in the other direction — towards Britain? How is the portion in the Irish Sea being resolved? The blue and white lines do not extend to Northern Ireland. They are all part of the British sea and land area, presumably. What about the rest of the area from Drogheda down? Is it included in the proposals?

Dr. Heffernan

To my knowledge, the Irish and UK authorities have agreed the line between them and submitted it to the UN under the convention. A bilateral agreement is in place between the states on where the boundaries lie.

I will ask two questions, but put a gun to Dr. Heffernan's head to answer only one of them. He may not want to answer the other. Can Dr. Heffernan explain the figure of €3 billion per annum and the 44,000 jobs to which he referred? What is Dr. Heffernan's opinion of today's Cabinet decision on salmon drift-netting? His involvement in maritime affairs and fishing must give him a feel for the best approach in that context. I will allow him not to answer the question.

Dr. Heffernan

I am not aware of the decision which has been arrived at as I did not hear it.

Dr. Heffernan would make a good politician. The decision is to create a compensation package for the elimination of drift-netting. I will not force Dr. Heffernan to respond.

Dr. Heffernan

The figure of €3 billion per annum profiles the productivity of the marine sector. I will put it in context by referring to three similar-sized member states, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway. In the ocean economy, Denmark does four times that amount of business, the Netherlands does five times that amount of business and Norway does seven times that amount of business. If one examines the trends in the global market analysis which point to significant growth opportunities in the majority of the marine commercial sectors, one will see the scale of opportunity ahead of Ireland.

Can Dr. Heffernan explain what he means by "ocean economy"?

Dr. Heffernan

We have a publication the secretariat has received a copy of for all members which sets that out. The ocean economy is all of the marine businesses including traditional fishing, aquaculture, food processing, shipping, tourism and the financial, banking and legal services associated with shipping. The cruise industry for example, which is a component of the marine tourism sector, did not exist five or six years ago but is now worth approximately €100 million per annum. All of these business sectors are based on the marine resource. They are very diverse.

In that case, I must revert to my question on drift-netting and the decision to establish a compensation fund on foot of its cessation. It is based on the economy and the matters to which Dr. Heffernan is referring and the institute is likely to have an opinion on it.

Dr. Heffernan

The institute's service to Government was to advise on the state of fish stocks. We have published that advice publicly on a number of occasions and the standing scientific committee has advised the salmon commission as well as Government. The advice is in the public domain.

Some people have claimed that it was impossible to collect adequate scientific data as the fish counters were not there. The institute was in charge of the collection of the data. How does it respond to people who say it is impossible to get a full picture as the counters do not exist in some places?

Dr. Heffernan

I have not heard that claim. I am aware from feedback from various stakeholders involved in the salmon commission that there is a general acceptance of the picture presented by the scientific advice on the overall state of the stock. In contrast, the quantum of scientific information available on salmon, as a fish stock, far exceeds that relating to any other species managed under the Common Fisheries Policy. Given that the institute is the main player in the assessment of more than €1 billion worth of marine fisheries stocks to the west of Ireland, it is qualified to draw that comparison.

So Dr. Heffernan disputes the position and believes that adequate data is available.

Dr. Heffernan

The scientific information is unequivocal and adequate.

I wish to return the point raised by Deputy Sexton. Ireland's marine ocean economy is worth €3 billion, while the global market is worth €4,363 billion. Even though countries such as Norway and the Netherlands might have economies worth between four to seven times that of Ireland, the European Union is actually quite a small player in the global market. The EU's market probably accounts for €100 billion out of the total of €4,363 billion to which I refer. Where are the major players to be found and what steps is the EU likely to take to ensure that it becomes a serious player.

Dr. Heffernan

The global market analysis indicates that Europe accounts 30% plus of the global market.

It is stated in the presentation that the global market is estimated at €4,363 billion.

Dr. Heffernan

Yes.

However, the entire European marine economy would hardly be worth more than €100 billion. Denmark's marine economy is worth four times that of Ireland, or €12 billion, the Netherlands' marine economy is five times that of Ireland, or €15 billion, and Norway's marine economy is seven times that of Ireland, or €21 billion. When the marine economies of all the other European countries are added to those figures, the overall worth is scarcely more than €100 billion, which is much less than 30% of the global market.

Dr. Heffernan

I only compared nations of similar demographic and economic size with Ireland. Some of the larger European Union member states would make up extremely large proportions——

Some of the major ocean areas lie off the coasts of France, Spain and Portugal.

Dr. Heffernan

However, businesses in economies such as that of the UK involved in financing the shipping sector in Germany, France and Greece are very large. Subject to correction, it is pointed out that the statistics available leave many gaps. However, I understand Europe's share of the global economy to be more than 30%.

The Deputy was correct to point out that Ireland, as a player in the market, is very small. However, significant gains on Ireland's part would not require huge market share. We are positive in our viewpoint regarding the scope for growth in Ireland in light of the global market analysis, the trends in different sub-sectors and our analysis of the opportunities that will arise for Ireland. We have used that analysis to guide us in identifying the areas on which science should focus in the next seven years.

Dr. Heffernan stated that 87% of the seabed survey had been completed. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report indicates that there are three zones in this regard and Dr. Heffernan stated that the zone closest to our landmass is the least complete. Why was the survey relating to that zone not completed first? Surely that would have taken priority as far as mapping is concerned. Why has only 12.6% of zone 1 been completed in the past seven years? What was the rationale behind commencing with the area furthest out?

Dr. Heffernan

The plan presented to the Government in 1999 proposed mapping from the deep water areas inward in light of the outer-continental claims and the importance thereof. Those boundaries are the priority and the plan was linked to works therein. It is much more expensive per acre to map in shallow waters and the Government at the time may have considered it prohibitively expensive to attack only the inshore area.

The good news is that the Government has approved the mapping of the inshore area and that is being done as we speak.

There is no potential for us to make progress in the area of shipping, which makes up 56% of global product, because we do not have any ships. Much of the work on natural resources, such as prospecting etc., is carried out by the multinationals. What direction will the Marine Institute advise the Government to take in terms of expansion?

Dr. Heffernan

The Deputy can read an overview of the sea change plans in the Strategy for Science, Technology and Innovation 2006-2013, and I can provide copies to the committee. He may be surprised at the extent of Irish-owned shipping activity in the sectors of the economy that are strong at the moment. In global terms it is relatively small but strong, small, independent companies in the shipping sector are growing. In recent years there has been significant growth in the services sector associated with shipping, with a number of Irish financial institutions now having loan books of the order of €1 billion, a situation which would have not existed a decade ago. Equally, financial services and services relating to asset management in shipping now exist so there is growth in services associated with shipping. Through the Irish Maritime Development Office we have been involved in attracting inward investment in software technologies associated with logistics management for the supply chain through ports.

We will advise maximising the commercial potential associated with niche foods, such as green, blue and high-value marine food products. Significant opportunities for Ireland are presented by sea bed observatories, environmental sensors and aquatic sensor technologies and the linking of software and engineering. There is potential in the next ten to 15 years in discovering biological resources that we do not exploit at the moment such as functional foods, health foods and pharmaceuticals. Again, the most accurate map will be an asset to us in that process.

We will also point out opportunities in renewable ocean energy, such as tidal energy, and in international sales of science and education services.

Dr. Heffernan will never finish his presentation.

Dr. Heffernan

I thank the Chairman for reminding me. There is only one thing left to show members, namely the process ahead. A cross-Government initiative is under way. The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will be the lead Department but will work in partnership with the Department of Transport and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in preparing Ireland's response material. Other Departments with significant inputs include the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the Department of Defence.

Regarding the timetable, a great deal of preparatory material will be prepared across the relevant Departments by the end of this year through the analysis of the Green Paper, a public consultation will take place in the first quarter of 2007 and the finalisation of the national response will be prepared and submitted in the second quarter.

Deputy Sexton raised the issue of salmon. Is Dr. Heffernan versed in the EU habitats directive?

Dr. Heffernan

Not well.

Some press reports have made it clear that the European Commission warned Ireland that it would incur serious fines for breaches of the habitats directive if drift-netting did not end. Is this specified in the document?

Dr. Heffernan

It is my understanding that the Commission has communicated to Ireland that an interceptory fishery that removes salmon stocks originating in other member states is contrary to the habitats directive and Ireland's responsibilities. It has also been communicated that further action will be taken against Ireland if it does not comply with the directive.

Does "interceptory fishery" mean drift-netting?

Dr. Heffernan

Yes. It means any method that removes fish from one habitat and prevents them from returning to the member state's habitat where they originated.

We are discussing the Green Paper and, to a great extent, coastal communities. Some of those communities in my constituency have been devastated and no longer exist. The figure of €30 million in compensation has been mentioned, but would that be adequate? In some cases, people who have fished and been on the sea for all of their lives would only receive €2,000 in lieu of one of their mainstays. Putting the argument about right and wrong aside, does Dr. Heffernan have an opinion on the levels of compensation offered in light of what has happened to coastal communities?

Dr. Heffernan

I would not be competent to engage in a discussion on compensation. The institute's role, to which I have dedicated ten years of my life, is to provide the best scientific advice to enable people who have been democratically elected to make decisions.

According to Dr. Heffernan's knowledge of the directive, would he consider a voluntary compensation package to be in contravention of it?

Dr. Heffernan

A voluntary mechanism means that the activity would continue. My understanding of the matter is that any continuation of the activity would be contrary to the Commission's formal position on the habitats directive.

Dr. Heffernan's definition would suggest that to be the case.

If the drift-net fishermen do not catch fish from member states or threw out member states' fish, no law would be broken.

It would be different if fishermen knew where the fish originated.

How could they prove it?

According to our briefing on drift-net fishing last week, salmon are intricate creatures. This is a fascinating discussion. A massive proportion of young salmon do not survive in the oceans and seas in question. Will what happens to salmon in the oceans being researched? I do not have the notes with me, but only 5% of the entire population survives.

Dr. Heffernan

Yes. It is a good example of the contrast between man's knowledge of the ocean and the land. Salmon spend approximately half their lives at sea and endure significant death and mortality rates from many sources. If the knowledge every nation has managed to gather about salmon at sea was the size of a bungalow, the knowledge we have gathered about the life of salmon in freshwater rivers, lakes and streams would be the size of a skyscraper. This analogy reflects the gap in our knowledge of the ocean. We know much less about the deep ocean than we do about the back of the moon. That is the state of mankind's collective knowledge.

Is drift-netting the main cause of the demise of salmon?

Dr. Heffernan

I defer to the detailed scientific advice which describes comprehensively and in detail the variety of sources which cause mortality in salmon, identifies the gaps in that knowledge and has advised on the role of drift-netting.

Surely Dr. Heffernan has an opinion on the damage being done by drift-netting. Is it the most damaging factor? I will tell him why I ask. Some of the fishermen in my constituency make the claim that sea lice have had a more damaging effect on salmon stocks than drift-net fishermen. They say sea lice, as a factor, are underestimated in some cases. Generally, does Dr. Heffernan have an opinion on that claim?

Dr. Heffernan

I would not have an opinion on the contrasting mortality factors. The detailed scientific advice which is published and available does a very good job of summarising it. I would not do a disservice to that advice by attempting, at a couple of arms' length, to summarise what is a very detailed and publicly available body of work.

Does the Marine Institute consider that there is still a problem regarding sea lice on salmon?

Dr. Heffernan

The Department has called together a review team to re-evaluate the status of the sea lice issue. We will be supporting that exercise and it will be reporting on the question in a matter of months. As far as I know, the report will be made this side of Christmas.

Is fish farming along the coast a contributory factor to the levels of sea lice in salmon stocks and causing problems for wild salmon and other wild fish?

Dr. Heffernan

The general scientific advice is that the levels of sea lice in fish farms in Ireland are analysed more intensively than in any jurisdiction. The results of these analyses are publicly available. A review of the status of sea lice issues is taking place. It is in the interests of all stakeholders, including fish farmers and wild fishery angling owners, that sea lice levels are managed very well. The lice is a naturally occurring wild organism which infects wild salmon and salmon in fish farms. The parasite, a common enemy to all producers, exists in the wild.

Has the domestication of fish in fish farms not increased the incidence of sea lice with the result that its incidence is much greater in the wild than it used to be?

Dr. Heffernan

Published material from the Marine Institute gives a very accurate picture of the levels of sea lice over many years in fish farms, farm by farm. Methodologies for controlling the levels of lice have been documented and are published. They have been shown to be capable of being controlled.

That is a very political response.

I do not mean to be pushy on this, but it seems that if one does not have complete data on sea lice and it has moved in the Department to another committee or working group, how can one determine drift-netting is the main cause of the demise of the salmon where there is an imponderable and a vacuum in the information? Fishermen in my constituency have asked how that decision can be made when the cause is not definitively known. If it is undetermined and unclear what effect sea lice are having, how can it be claimed that drift-netting is the main cause?

Dr. Heffernan

In the context of the discussion and the points raised by Deputy Costello, the focus in the past has been the influence of lice on sea trout and farmed salmon. While I defer to the detailed scientific advice, it is my general understanding that lice are not considered in scientific judgment to be a major mortality factor among salmon, the species in question when considering the impact of drift-netting. The most detailed and publicly available analysis on the levels of sea lice is produced and published in Ireland.

I mentioned to Dr. Heffernan before that some of the coastal communities in my constituency and others say their incomes have been wiped out. What is in the Green Paper for them? While Dr. Heffernan said the Green Paper's focus was on questions for member states to address, what kind of future do people in our coastal communities have? Even in the seven years I have been a public representative, I have seen fishermen move to different activities. There are very few boats fishing out of Helvick now. There does not appear to be a great willingness by the Government to provide necessary infrastructural money to ports to allow them to continue doing business. Dunmore East is the main example in my constituency. What hope is there? Dr. Heffernan has spoken of significant figures for the industry as a whole, but what is there in the Green Paper for people in coastal communities to look forward to?

Dr. Heffernan

It is a question I would not dare to answer on behalf of fishermen or other sectors who are well-equipped to determine if there is anything in the Green Paper for them and to convey whether they are happy, dismayed or otherwise have an opinion. In the context of ocean opportunity at a higher level and going forward, it is interesting to note that the Commission has produced an over-arching paper. Development in the USA, Australia and Canada has followed the model set out and the time is right for Europe to ask, as the Chairman has, if there is value in the exercise at all. These fundamental questions are included in what the Green Paper asks, but when one boils matters down to the local, the Chairman is as well placed to answer his question as me.

To take the fundamentals, if I tell someone he will receive only €2,000 having fished salmon all his life, what will the EU do? Will the EU help financially or examine the region and agree to fund various projects? What will be the approach here?

It is unfair to ask the CEO of the Marine Institute about the financial implications of the decision which has been taken. The institute provides the scientific knowledge to the people who make the decisions.

I am talking about the Green Paper on maritime policy in the EU.

Sorry. Are you talking about the future?

I am talking about the Green Paper and coastal communities.

If I am correct, the Chairman is asking how he can explain to fishermen in his constituency that €2,000 is adequate compensation. We cannot expect the Marine Institute to answer that. It is a decision which has been made by the Government.

If that is the case, what does the European Union intend to do to supplement their livelihoods? Many of the communities to which I refer have disappeared from the towns and villages I represent. The industry is no longer to be found in these places.

The argument can also be made that if these measures are not put in place, the industry will completely disappear. Even though they may not be palatable, they must be imposed.

I am not referring specifically to salmon fishermen; I am talking about pot fishermen, whitefish fishermen and salmon fishermen.

I am confident that the measures in the Green Paper which have been outlined for the committee by Dr. Heffernan and which perhaps will be put in place will ensure the industry will not disappear. We have neglected the sector to the point where it is in crisis.

That is what I was asking, namely, what they could expect from the——

From a compensation point of view, I do not believe we can expect an answer from our guest.

To a great extent, money is the issue. People need it to get on in life. Those to whom I refer have lost their livelihoods and need money to exist. Is there a future in fishing or the maritime area for these individuals? What will be the process?

Dr. Heffernan

As pointed out, the Green Paper does not address implementation or detailed operational issues. It poses fundamental questions as to whether Europe requires an overarching, high level, cross-sectoral governance policy on maritime affairs. As drafted, it does not address specific, detailed areas. It certainly does not address the level of detail contained in the Chairman's question. I do not anticipate that a Green Paper of that nature would do so. However, it is open to all stakeholders to provide feedback. If the Chairman or the committee believes that the Green Paper should——

I will try to encapsulate this matter for our guests. If I approach a constituent of mine who has been a fisherman for 20 or 30 years and state the European Union is drafting a Green Paper on maritime affairs, he will state the reason he is in the situation in which he finds himself in the first instance is the European Union. He will indicate that it has put in place quotas and restrictions on what, when and for how long one can fish and ask what it will do for him. Fishermen have some justification for believing this to be the case. There are reasons the European Union acted as it did. I am inquiring about what it proposes to use to supplement fishermen's livelihoods and incomes. That is a fair question and any constituent of mine would ask it. To a certain extent, I do not understand where we are going with this. The Deputy inquired as to whether there was a value to it and the answer is that I do not know.

The Chairman is saying he does not anticipate that the Green Paper will include all of the areas to which he legitimately referred. We need to discover whether it can be widened in scope to include them. I presume submissions can be made by the sectors involved in that regard. Perhaps that is the way to proceed. It is good to know that the Chairman did not anticipate this matter, which places us all on warning.

It indicates how sparse Government policy is in respect of this entire area. I wish to ask a final question but I am sure that, again, it is one our guest will not be in a position to answer. In the light of the enormity of the Irish landmass, of which we were not aware until this meeting began and which is 90 times greater than we heretofore thought, and the major amount of money to be made from the development of the marine resource, does Dr. Heffernan believe a separate Cabinet Ministry should be created in order to properly address the issues he has discussed with us?

Dr. Heffernan

I hope the Deputy will understand that it is not appropriate for me, as chief executive of the Marine Institute, to make a political comment.

I do. However, the present Minister has an amalgam of responsibilities. Has the marine area suffered in not having its individuality and its importance highlighted in this and previous Governments? The question also arises in the context of discussions in the European Union over many decades.

Dr. Heffernan

I can advise on the maritime Green Paper but this discussion is not related to that. The Irish Government will gather a response through a public consultation process and will make it available. We will provide executive support to the cross-Government initiative but the Government policy process will take its course and the response will be framed in that context.

I will limit my comments to marine science in Ireland as that is my area of competence. In the past decade Ireland has progressed in the area of marine science more rapidly than in all previous decades put together. We are now in a position where, whatever democratically-elected Government we serve, Ireland is in a position whereby that scientific service can work to its advantage at a level which was not possible before. I look forward to serving whatever Government the people elect.

I thank Dr. Heffernan and Mr. O'Sullivan for attending today.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.42 p.m. and adjourned at 3.51 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 November 2006.
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