The first item on the agenda is the election of the Chairman. Accordingly I ask for nominations.
Election of Chairman.
Clerk to the Sub-Committee
I nominate Senator Paschal Donohoe for the position of Chairman.
I second that.
Clerk to the Sub-Committee
As there are no other nominations, I deem Senator Paschal Donohoe to be elected as Chairman of the sub-committee. I now call on Senator Donohoe to take the Chair.
Senator Paschal Donohoe took the Chair.
Thank you all for your support. I will begin by reflecting on the important work of this sub-committee, which I am very privileged to chair. I am also very conscious of the responsibilities faced by all of us in doing this work, the volume of work involved and the time frame within which it must be completed. We have a clear choice regarding the work we will do. We can re-run the debate we had in the past; we can re-work the campaign; or we can look to the future and consider the possibilities and the work that needs to be done. I urge that we look to the future and consider the options. If we reiterate what happened in the past, we will bore people who are interested in our work and whose support we need. We know the referendum is finished and that the campaign is over.
The role of this sub-committee is twofold. We have to understand the consequences of the decision the people have taken and look to the future as legislators. We have to consider the options and speak to the people and to the Oireachtas about those options. I will undertake this work without any preconditions and I will set aside party interest. In the very uncertain world in which we operate, the issues are so important that the sub-committee must work efficiently, fairly and quickly, otherwise we will not get the work done. I thank you for your expertise and patience in undertaking this work. I will do my utmost to be an efficient and impartial Chairman. Everything must be completed by 28 November and I am certain we will rise to the challenge.
The terms of reference given to us in the nation's interest are fourfold. We have to analyse the implications of the referendum result and the challenge this poses for Ireland; second, we have to examine the key issues of concern to the people in regard to Ireland's membership of the Union, including economic, social and defence policies, as well as Ireland's influence within the EU; third, we have to consider how the role of the Houses of the Oireachtas in EU affairs could be enhanced and public understanding of the EU improved; and, most important of all, we have to consider Ireland's future in the European Union. In working with the members of the sub-committee to fulfil that remit, I want to make clear from the outset that the sub-committee will be a doorway for all members of the European family. We must find a way to accommodate everybody, regardless of their view or their persuasion. This must be done efficiently because we need to deliver an impartial report on time.
With the greatest respect to everybody who has been front and centre of this debate so far, with the consent of members we will ask for new voices, left or right, Government or Opposition, "Yes" or "No". We need to hear the broadest spectrum of opinion to assist us to do our work well. I am conscious that this is the first such sub-committee and I want the way it does its work to be a first as well. I do want talking heads in here; I do not want us to become talking heads. I want us to talk to each other. I do not want just the Ministers, the millionaires and the interest groups we have had in the past; I want new voices as well. Our mandate is wide and challenging and we know we have a responsibility to fulfil it. I am certain we will rise to that challenge and I look forward to working with you in making that happen on time, fairly and efficiently.
I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment. Although there is a great deal of work to be done in a short time, I look forward to it. It is important that the public understand that this is not a committee established to see how we can run a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty. There is a danger that there will be a very narrow perception of what we have been established to do. Ireland is in a very privileged position because we as Members of the Oireachtas are trying to understand the nature of the problem that has presented itself, not just in Ireland but in other member states, beginning with the first Danish "No" vote to the Maastricht treaty, the first Irish "No" vote to the Nice treaty and the Dutch and French "No" votes to the draft constitutional treaty. There is a problem in Europe regarding the engagement of its citizens with the project in general. It manifests itself every so often, usually in the rejection of a treaty which is put before the people in a popular referendum. As well as looking at the specifics of why the Irish people had concerns about the Lisbon treaty and the policy issues that arose for them, I hope this committee will be able to make recommendations that can be brought back to the European institutions about how to tackle that fundamental problem. We are very privileged to be charged with this task and, I hope, in the time available we will be able to do some real thinking and come up with recommendations that will influence the future direction of the European Union.
I welcome your appointment as Chairman and wish you the very best. I know from my experience as a colleague on Dublin City Council and here in Leinster House that you are a very capable and formidable Chairman and will handle the position with the utmost fairness.
I echo the Chairman's point regarding the need to hear new voices in this debate. The one lesson we have all learnt on both the "Yes" and "No" sides of the Lisbon campaign is that politicians and politics have become very much disengaged from the public at large on European affairs, the role of Europe, Ireland's relationship with Europe, the citizen's relationship with Europe and the European Union specifically. It is very important that we allow not just for impartial voices but for people who have strong views one way or the other. It is very important that we listen to those views and that this committee should reflect them. Ireland finds itself in the aftermath of the Lisbon treaty referendum in a changed relationship with the European Union. It is a huge challenge for this committee to analyse and assess that position and see where Ireland will lie in relation to the European Union in the future. I am not talking solely about the Lisbon treaty but in terms of our future engagement with the European Union and where Ireland will stand in relation to the other 26 member states.
Everybody here, either individually or on the basis of party membership, had a clear and strong position on the Lisbon treaty. It will be difficult to discard those positions or put them to one side. However, that is the task of the committee. We all have views on Europe but ultimately this is dealing with Ireland's future engagement with Europe. We must be conscious of that so that we can do our work in a somewhat impartial fashion and facilitate all views and all voices. We have a very tight time frame and it is a huge task for us to come forward with concrete and positive solutions. Everybody will do their best to find ideas and suggestions for Ireland's future path in Europe which is so critical to all of us.
I am delighted you have been elected to the Chairmanship of this sub-committee. We are constituency colleagues and I know your abilities. I am sure you will do a thorough, comprehensive and effective job. I offer my congratulations.
I was pleased too with the tenor of the Chairman's remarks about the breadth of our terms of reference. We must respond in terms of the extent to which we seek opinions. It should be clear from the beginning that this committee is not a "bail out" for the Government. It is not our intention, nor is it the intention in the terms of reference, to provide a solution to the Government's current dilemma. It is much broader than that. We have to look at the entirety of the relationship between the Irish people and the European Union. The more we remind ourselves of that the less we are likely to get bogged down in sectoral interests in the way we conduct our business. It is the views of the people that we need to reflect not certain stakeholders or sectoral areas. We will have to do difficult and concentrated work in the very short time available. I hope we can find a mechanism to reflect effectively and efficiently the broader interests and views.
We in the Oireachtas must look into our hearts and consider whether we have dealt adequately with the challenges in terms of engagement with the European Union. Approximately 75% of all domestic legislation emanates from Europe, yet this is not reflected in the manner in which we conduct our business. That will have to be reflected soberly in the manner in which conduct our business in the future. All these are matters which will broaden the agenda and deal with the perceived democratic deficit. All the surveys indicate that the Irish people wholly support Europe. Nevertheless, they have considerable difficulties about the way Europe is presented and certain operations of the European institutions. Our function is to break down that barrier and face up to the challenges and relationships Ireland will have in the future.
I join others in welcoming your appointment and I wish you well in your endeavours. A specific time frame has been set for the work to be completed and I look forward to working with the Chairman and colleagues.
I welcome the indication that this should not be considered a re-run of the Lisbon campaign. We have to respect the decision of the people. There are very significant issues in terms of reforming the institutions of Europe and our relationship in that regard. I hope we will be able to adhere to our very specific terms of reference. If we do so, we will enhance the capacity of the people to understand our current relationship with Europe. It is necessary to define this, as well as to identify how to improve that relationship. I agree that it will be critical to find some new level of interaction with witnesses who may not have come before committees before. We must seek to interact with people who do not necessarily represent interest groups but whose views are more reflective of the research we have seen. We must try to get to the core of the real issues.
Déanaim comghairdeas leat, a Chathaoirligh, as ucht tú a bheith ceaptha mar Chathaoirleach don chomhchoiste seo. It is our party's intention to work positively and constructively on this committee. It is not just the responsibility of those who supported the Lisbon treaty to address the aftermath of its rejection. Those of us who campaigned against it must play our part in pursuing a better deal for Ireland and for the European Union. However, I and my party will fight tooth and nail should it be decided cynically to manipulate the work of this committee to set aside the democratic wishes of the people. We continue to be deeply concerned that it is the Government's intention, with the support of the other parties, to use this committee as space to prepare the groundwork for a re-run of the Lisbon treaty referendum.
It is clear from the committee's terms of reference that the Government is endeavouring to change and reshape public debate away from the Lisbon treaty itself to Ireland's membership of the EU. The Chairman stated that the most important of the terms of reference was that which dealt with Ireland's future within the European Union. This is a deeply dishonest move and one that we in Sinn Féin will try to address in proposing changes to the terms of reference. We will not facilitate a narrowly defined stock-taking exercise, nor will we participate in an exercise clearing the ground for the re-run of the Lisbon treaty. Opt-outs and declarations do not change the treaty. We need a robust debate on the future of the European Union.
We must agree a schedule of work that engages with public opinion across the board, including the community and voluntary sectors, the development agencies and the unions. We need to bring the debate to the schools and universities. It needs to be led by the community, not just the politicians, the majority of whom in these Houses were out of touch with public opinion on this issue. The outcome of this debate needs to inform us as a committee and inform the Government's policy on the European Union. The EU partners are not questioning this State's role within Europe. Our standing within the European Union has not been compromised; it is secure. We have a very good relationship with the Union and a good reputation for hard work and negotiation. We should not give the impression that our role within the European Union is in question.
Senator de Búrca said it was important that the committee should establish from the start that this is not about facilitating a re-run of the Lisbon treaty. The Chairman in his opening remarks mentioned that the referendum is finished. If we want seriously to inform people and put their concerns to rest, each of us as a member of this committee should state not just that the referendum is finished but that the Lisbon treaty is finished and that the committee respects the democratic views and wishes of the people of this island. That would deal with the issue once and for all.
I re-emphasise that we will play a very constructive role in this committee. This debate needs to be about the future direction of Europe, not Ireland's role within Europe. It needs to be about moving away from centralisation, militarisation and the privatising agenda of Europe toward a more democratic, social and peaceful role. I will seek to ensure this is part of our programme of work. The majority of people voted against the Lisbon treaty. I and my party hold a minority view on this committee. I hope there is fairness and balance in the conduct of our business and that all views will be facilitated.
It is important to set the tone for these meetings early on. Senator Doherty said I was dishonest in laying out——
No, I did not.
Just let me finish. You said I was dishonest in what I said. I read out the terms of reference laid down for us. In my opening comments, some of which you acknowledged, I emphasised two things. The first is that I will bend over backwards to be impartial and to accommodate all voices within society and the Oireachtas. If at any point during the term of this committee you feel I am not doing that, please let me know publicly or privately. The second point is that members of the committee will see in the work plan for discussion and agreement the efforts already made to accommodate as many people as we can and to ensure we have a discussion that looks to the future. I emphasise my commitment to being impartial and honest in implementing the terms of reference, over which I have no choice.
I said that the Government in drawing up the terms of reference has sought to shape public opinion and shift the debate from the Lisbon treaty by placing a question mark over Ireland's role within the European Union. I noted that the Chairman specified as most important among the terms of reference that which dealt with Ireland's future within the European Union. I said that the terms of reference, which we sought to amend in the Dáil, are deeply dishonest. It is the Government which is responsible for framing those terms of reference, but the Oireachtas is responsible for agreeing them.
I join in congratulating you on your election as Chairman of this important sub-committee. I wish you well in your work and offer my full support and that of my colleagues. The work of this committee will be extremely important and we have a very tight time frame. I welcome the Chairman's statement that this will not be a re-run of Lisbon or of the work of our plenary committee which for several months brought in speakers and delegations on both sides of the debate. The focus of this committee is on the future.
Members of political parties and of none, by joining this committee, have accepted the terms of reference and the responsibility individually and collectively to address the situation in which we find ourselves, the issues that emerged during the Lisbon campaign and those that will determine Ireland's future role within the EU. Ireland is at a crossroads in terms of its engagement with the European Union. If the work of this committee helps to engage the public in debate, to identify the issues and the direction in which Ireland should go in terms of its membership and role within the European Union, then we will have fulfilled our function. What could be more important in the terms of reference than discussing Ireland's future role with the European Union? What else are we about? I cannot think of a more important subject to debate. This includes the issues that arose during the referendum such as defence, security policy, our status within the EU, the transparency and accountability of the institutions, public understanding of the work of the European Union and how it interacts with our domestic political system. These are fundamental issues of strategic importance to Ireland's national interests.
I fully support the Chairman in the important work of this committee. We have a tight time frame and I welcome the Chairman's stated intention to be efficient in running the business of the committee. We have accepted the terms of reference and the deadline and we must fulfil our commitments.
Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabháil leat, a Chathaoirligh, as ucht do thoghchán inniu mar Chathaoirleach an fo-choiste seo. I agreed with much that Senator Doherty said about not re-running the Lisbon treaty referendum. Perhaps he did not mean to adopt the tone he did, but Sinn Féin has a huge role to play in this process. Clearly many people agreed with it in the referendum.
Our future role in the European Union is very important. Many of the issues that arose in the referendum campaign are already covered in the Maastricht treaty, the Amsterdam treaty and the Treaty of Rome. There was debate about issues that are already set in stone and in law. Are people happy with this? Do they realise what is there and are they happy to continue with some of the things we are involved with? The survey carried out by the Government indicates that public understanding of how the EU works is generally quite low. That is partly because it is a relatively complicated body but also because the EU and we have not attempted to disseminate information. The issue of public understanding will be a very big challenge for us. We in Fianna Fáil are keen to work with all sides of the political debate and to be as co-operative as possible. We do not want to engage in a political slamming act. We want to get our job done as quickly as possible. Perhaps at the end of the day we will not all agree but we should tease out the issues as best we can and address the concerns people have. It is great to see Senators Mullen and Doherty on the committee and I know they will make a really important contribution.
Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta Thomas Byrne as ucht an méid a dúirt sé. Gabhaim chomhghairdeas leis an Chathaoirleach as ucht a bheith tofa mar Chathaoirleach. Tá a fhios agam go mbeidh sé neamhclaonta. Is léir, tar éis dom éisteacht leis an Chathaoirleach sa Seanad, gur duine éirimiúil agus thar a bheith cúirtéiseach é. Tá sé soiléir go ndéanfaidh sé a taighde roimh ré, rud a bheidh an-tábhachtach anseo, go háirithe os rud é go mbeidh rudaí á mholadh agam, ag an Seanadóir Doherty, ag na Teachtaí Thomas Byrne agus Creighton agus ag daoine eile. Guím gach rath ort, a Chathaoirligh, agus tú ag tabhairt faoin post tábhachtach seo.
I welcome the Chairman's appointment and I have every confidence in his impartiality, ability and attention to detail. I am also very grateful to have been invited to join this sub-committee. A number of issues should guide us in our reflections. I welcome the broad nature of the terms of reference which allow us considerable scope to identify the net issues we must consider in dealing with the outcome of the Lisbon referendum. It behoves us to take a reflective approach. The referendum was marked by accusation and spin tactics on both sides. People made the most of the arguments that suited their point of view. Not everybody had regard to the full unvarnished truth when they made certain claims about what Lisbon did or did not involve — I am talking about both sides. Let us have an end to judgmentalism on any side of the debate. Let us focus on where we are and the issues with which we have to deal.
I would strongly urge the sub-committee to avoid some of the extraneous issues that have characterised the debate to date. I do not know how many times I have heard that very soon 26 out of 27 states will have ratified the Lisbon treaty. It is a relevant consideration, but the more we reflect on that the more we diminish our sense of the very important system we have in Ireland for ratifying treaties. We have to conduct our deliberations as though one or two member states had ratified or were going to ratify. Politically it is a relevant consideration that there might expectation from external governments, but we really cannot afford to dwell on that if we are to put the national interest first, as is our duty.
It has been said that if people only understood what Lisbon was about, we would have a different debate. It is probably better not to patronise people, that we try to look at the issues. I hope that we as a committee will test each other's questions, claims, fears and assumptions and bring in the relevant experts to answer some of our questions about what precisely Lisbon imports and what situation would apply if we were or were not to ratify. Recently I wrote in an article that those who voted "No" for social reasons, as I did, perhaps have a duty to state in what circumstances they would be willing to vote "Yes". I was really speaking for myself because I accept that some people voted "No" to Lisbon who would perhaps regard us as being better off if we were not members of the EU. Perhaps we should assume that such people would never vote "Yes". I am not among that number. I voted "No" to the Lisbon treaty for the very specific reason that I am concerned about an over-centralisation at EU level and I believe there are certain sensitive social issues that it is better to decide in Ireland for Ireland. That is not jingoistic nationalism; it is a recognition of the fact that we are supposed to be operating the principle of subsidiarity.
It was not helpful when that concern for sensitive social issues was confined to the issue of abortion, as occurred during the debate. It is about much more than that. As we have seen in the case of Roe v. Wade in America, it is a very negative thing when a federal solution is imposed on member states who have different cultures, traditions and priorities. A range of issues will confront us, touching on the family, marriage, stem cell research, the right to life. There are other issues such as who runs our education system and who decides what kind of education system we have. I voted “No” because I feel we can do more at EU level to make sure Ireland has the opportunity to make some of these decisions for itself. I would expect people who would not necessarily share my point of view on these issues to agree with me nonetheless that if these issues are socially sensitive, then we should make the necessary moves to make sure that Irish people get to decide them for Ireland. I would expect support for that point of view from all sides.
I am conscious that the issues I have raised are not the only issues of concern to people. I intend to contribute as reasonably as I can to the best of my ability on the concerns raised by other people. I hope we will be adventurous in looking at possible solutions, whether opt-outs, protocols, or the way we ratify treaties. There are issues to which there are potential solutions which we have to look at clearly, with full regard to the authority we in Ireland have to decide this issue for ourselves, without undue regard to external pressures.
I congratulate the Chairman and wish him well. I know he will do an excellent job. I will offer him every co-operation.
The biggest challenge facing the committee is getting people interested in receiving information. It is important that people should come to the committee with clean hands and that we should be able to shed any preconceived perceptions regarding the debate. We must not re-run the referendum campaign. It is also important that we should be frank with each other in our efforts to meet the requirements of the terms of reference and that we carry out a critical analysis. I cannot over-emphasise the concept of coming to the committee with clean hands. We will find out fairly soon if people are interested in dealing with the terms of reference or if they have another agenda. If people on either side of the argument have other agendas, the committee will not be successful in reaching a conclusion in accordance with its terms of reference.
I was on the "Yes" side of the campaign and from that perspective it is fairly easy to identify, perhaps inaccurately, the reasons people voted "No". It is also possible that many of those who voted "Yes" may have done so for reasons which would not stand up under analysis.
Ba mhaith liom ar dtús comhghairdeas a thabhairt duit freisin. I am glad of the opportunity to be a member of this sub-committee, particularly in view of the diverse views on all sides. The time ahead will be very interesting. I welcome the fact that the terms of reference are so broad.
While I campaigned in favour of a "Yes" vote on the Lisbon treaty, I come to the committee with an open mind in considering how Ireland can best secure its future within the EU. I fully agree with Senator Mullen on some of the social issues he mentioned and I look forward to exploring those issues with him. This Parliament and sub-committee have a unique opportunity. For the first time a committee will devote itself very intensively over a couple of months to analysing where we are going within the EU. That is my frame of mind in coming to this sub-committee. I want to consider how I can make the EU more relevant to the constituents I meet every day. People are feeling very detached and do not understand the EU institutions or the relevance they have in our lives. Perhaps we as a Parliament have also become detached and not as focused as we might have been. I look forward to examining all these issues. There was a focus on many negative issues brought to the fore during the Lisbon campaign. The positive aspects of Ireland's role within the EU were not fully explored.
I will offer the Chairman my full co-operation and I am highly impressed by the commencement of his chairmanship. I look forward to the committee working in a very effective manner.
I join other members in wishing the Chairman well. I look forward to working with the sub-committee in a very positive way. It enables us to take a fresh perspective on how we do our business and engage with the European Union.
I thank members for their comments. I hope they will be as complimentary to me at the end of our work as they have been today.
The sub-committee went into private session at 2.10 p.m. and adjourned at 2.35 p.m. until 11.45 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 October 2008.