The first item on the agenda is to welcome our delegation from the Bundestag. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the delegation and hope its visit has been beneficial, that it has learned something and has given us something to learn. I thank the delegation for meeting the joint committee today. I note for the information of members of the committee that we have another meeting at 2.45 p.m. so we are under pressure for time.
EU’s Response to Financial Situation: Discussion.
Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen
I thank the Chairman for the welcome in these very difficult times. Coming from Berlin we also had a week of much political turbulence. I understand the situation in Dublin is not very much different. My colleague, Ms Veronika Bellman, from the Christian Democratic Party, is our specialist on Europe. She is a member of the European committee in the Bundestag. My colleague, Mr. Axel Fischer, also from the Christian Democratic Party, is a member of the committee for science and further education. We are missing Ms Marian Capers-Merk from the Social Democratic Party who was invited by students of Trinity College to give a lecture on German politicians. She is excused.
I am a member of the New Left Party and the committee for culture and media. We have an interest in the question of European progress being looked at by our colleagues from Ireland. We have learned quite an amount about Ireland's newly elected sub-committee. I saw a very interesting advertisement in The Irish Times today where people are invited to make written submissions to the sub-committee on their ideas. Perhaps members of the joint committee wish to ask some questions. We are honoured to appear before the committee.
I thank Dr. Jochimsen. I should also mention that the delegation is welcome in the sense that we European parliamentarians from national parliaments do not meet and exchange views as regularly as we used to some years ago. I believe that is a mistake and I thank the delegation for being with us. In these times of turmoil, to which Dr. Jochimsen referred, it is important that Europeans stand for Europe, particularly those countries that are committed to the European concept so that we can exchange views and understand each other and that we are there for one another. I invite Ms Bellman to comment. The decimated numbers are an explanation in itself for the turmoil to which Dr. Jochimsen referred.
Ms Veronika Bellman
I am very happy to be here. It is my first time in Ireland. I understand what the Chairman has said in regard to the Lisbon treaty. In the Bundestag, when we first voted on it, when it was called the constitution I voted against it so I can well understand the critical attitude towards it. However, once the constitution was changed into a treaty I had also changed my mind and I hope the same may happen in Ireland. I used the time before the second vote to check many aspects and to get into the details of the treaty. I hope you also will use the time until the next vote to do the same.
For me, the strengthening of the parliament according to the Lisbon treaty is very important. In Germany we have decided to have a co-operation agreement between the various organisations involved in Europe so that anything that comes from the European Union will have to be discussed in Parliament well ahead of decisions being made. For Ireland, it is important to discuss all these things and not to be discriminated against because Ireland is a small country. I will leave it at that as an introduction to the discussion.
Does anybody else wish to contribute?
Mr. Axel Fischer
Thank you very much for the very friendly welcome. I remember sitting here in this room the last time we came here and we discussed the treaty. There were many critical comments from every side. I agree with what my colleague Ms Bellman said. We also were very critical at the time. Still, in the meantime the Lisbon treaty has been ratified by many countries and now the question is how Ireland will deal with the situation. We require either new or partly new negotiations before a new decision is made, or Ireland will have to present the agreement again and, depending on the outcome, perhaps Europe will have to continue without Ireland. However, that would be very unfortunate. How will the committee deal with the situation?
Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen
This delegation is not a representative group of parliamentarians from the Bundestag. Ms Veronika Bellman had a critical attitude and only Mr. Axel Fischer presented the view that my party, the left party, understands very well the "No" vote of the Irish people in the referendum. We went to the supreme court in Germany to see whether the Lisbon treaty is in accordance with our constitution and we have our doubts. My sympathies and those of my party are more or less with those who voted "No" in the Irish referendum.
I agree with the remarks of Mr. Fischer that we must look to the future and examine how we deal with the situation. The worst course of action would be not to spend enough time doing this. The "No" vote represents a kind of moratorium, whether or not we like it. It is important to think and rethink these matters deeply, to consider the feelings of the population and to consider its sentiments, because a united Europe is not only a question of thoughts, ideas and political structures but of sentiment. Therefore, I hope every country, including those that have ratified the treaty in the meantime, will think again about the question of how we can form a new Europe in accordance with the wishes of our population.
The delegation has presented a very interesting cross-section of views. There is a slight difference between the emphasis placed in Germany and Ireland on the future of Europe and our participation in it. The larger countries in Europe will survive in any event. It does not make any great difference whether Europe is going forward as a cohesive unit, as a European Union. The major players will always survive in that territory. The smaller countries however have a different agenda. It is important for the smaller countries, such as Ireland, that we are part and parcel of the European Union, that the European Union and the member states within the Union recognise not necessarily that we are a special case but that by virtue of living in Europe we have an important and influential role to play, which we have done in the past and, I hope, will continue to do in the future.
Europe is now at a crossroads. Europe is hesitating and looking to see which way it will turn. A debate is taking place as to whether Europe should continue as it was, or look elsewhere or abandon the cohesiveness it espoused over the years. That would be a mistake. That is my view and my party's view and the view of 90% of the representatives in both Houses of this parliament. In fact, 95% to 97% of the elected membership of our Parliament are of the view that is pro-European, pro the European Union, and they voted and campaigned for the Lisbon treaty and were unsuccessful. Perhaps there are reasons for that at this time.
The Lisbon treaty paid the price for the indifference of Europe in the run-up to the Nice treaty No. 1 in particular, when we all had concerns about the way Europe was going at that time and we expressed those views. I strongly believe as do my colleagues that the Lisbon treaty has addressed the issues of democracy, subsidiarity and the need for member state parliaments to be involved in the European evolution, not necessarily to bring it to a halt but to be able to be positively involved in an influential way.
I had the pleasure of meeting the delegation last night. I learned something today in regard to the way in which the delegation can help us to join Europe with the Lisbon treaty. I gather that when the Maastricht treaty was turned down by Denmark and was later voted on, it was all about the fact that Denmark won the European football cup. Anything the delegation can do to enable Ireland to win the European football trophy would enable us to, perhaps, solve this problem.
The Senator will have to speak with the Cypriot ambassador.
That would be quite impossible. However, we need to talk to Cyprus first.
I have two questions. Germany is Ireland's fourth largest trading partner. This figure impressed me because of the success of that trading relationship. Is there anything we can do to ensure that trading relationship between Germany and Ireland continues in the manner it has in the past with such success? My second question is pertinent because Germany more than some other countries has an aging population. Can the delegation touch on the relationships it has with the older people, those over 70 years of age, and its system for looking after them in their old age, particularly in regard to the medical welfare?
I apologise to the chairman and delegation for being late as I was detained briefly at another meeting. There is no doubt that Germany is a major player in European politics and has played a major role in transforming the European Union into what it is today.
As a member of the EPU, I was delighted to read in the briefing note that Chancellor Merkel is a very popular politician in Germany at the moment. I had the pleasure of meeting her in Strasbourg recently when she addressed the Council of Europe meeting, which went down very well with all the members of the delegation.
I did not hear what the witnesses had to say but I am sure they wish to listen to the views of Irish politicians on the Lisbon treaty. I know they met some of us last night and will go home with a better understanding of why the Irish people voted "No" in the referendum earlier this year. There are times when we feel we do not understand why we voted "No", in light of the fact that 97% of politicians are in favour of Europe. Do the witnesses think the response of European leaders, particularly Chancellor Merkel, to the financial situation which has affected all the countries of Europe will help Ireland as regards the Lisbon treaty next year? Do they think the fact that Europe has responded so quickly and has worked together will influence the Irish people?
Senator Feargal Quinn asked about industry but I will ask a question about tourism. Ireland and Germany have a very close relationship in the area of tourism, brought about by the fact that a low-cost airline, Ryanair, and Aer Lingus serve many German cities. We welcome the large number of tourists who come to Ireland from Germany, particularly those who travel to the west coast from airports such as Frankfurt Hahn and others. How can we build closer relationships in the field of tourism? Germany and Ireland have a great deal in common and I would like more work to be done on building tourism links between the two countries.
I welcome the delegation. I am conscious of the wonderful role the reborn Germany has played in promoting peace and European union. Since Konrad Adenauer, Germany has been the paymaster and the promoter of much that is good in Europe. I trust that its essential role will continue as it makes objective decisions for Europe on the world stage. I would welcome increased economic and cultural links to promote the island of Ireland in Germany, which is a great nation and does wonderful work within Europe.
It is important we seek continually closer ties in Europe. I hope the Lisbon treaty can be passed in the future and that many of the fears surrounding its contents, which are unfounded but which have gained ground, will be answered comprehensively. Perhaps those answers need to come from Europe rather than from our own politicians. I hope Germany continues with its role, that it continues to support the expansion of Europe to the east and that it continues, as an example to all, to promote co-operation among countries which have fought in the past. Ireland has blossomed beyond all recognition since it joined the EU and Germany has been a major part of that.
Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen
If we had met three or four weeks ago I would have been able to answer a number of the questions in a better way than I now can. On tourism, there have always been wonderful links between Germany and Ireland. For the most part, tourism depends on people's economic situation and, in the past, that has enabled them to travel and take holidays. It depends on the future economic situation in Germany. Will there be a recession that will have an effect on tourism and exports? At the moment our newspapers foresee that exports, the strongest aspect of the German economy, will be damaged by what is going on.
Germany has major problems with an ageing population that needs medical help. Medicine can provide longer life and better health in old age. In this respect, it is a pity that Ms Caspers-Merk, junior Minister at the Ministry of Health, is not with us today because for some years she has addressed the ways in which politics and a state with diminishing means can deal with an ageing population.
I have addressed the areas of tourism, exports and the ageing population as best I can. Perhaps my colleagues can add to this; Mr. Fischer can answer the football question.
Mr. Fischer will do his best.
Outside the financial crisis, how strong is the German economy at the moment?
Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen
Could the Deputy ask me an easier question? There is nothing "outside the financial crisis". At the moment there is a great deal of insecurity in Germany; politicians, bankers and those involved in enterprise cannot say what the effect of the current situation will be.
Mr. Axel Fischer
The German economy is good and we hope it is good enough.
Let me start with the football question. It would be okay if Ireland wants to follow the Danish example and ratify the treaty after winning the European football cup. However, we could discuss the order in which it would happen, win first and then ratify the treaty or would it be the other way round?
I agree that the Chancellor made an excellent speech at the Council of Europe. Chancellor Merkel specifically visited the European Court of Human Rights in recognition of the important role of that organisation. We hope that other countries such as Russia will accept the importance of this organisation.
The outcome of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty gives rise to concerns. The Irish people rejected the Lisbon treaty and now we must consider how we continue. It is in all our interests to have Ireland with us. I am horrified when I hear some colleagues say that in the end if Ireland is not with us, we will be a Union without Ireland. I think that should not be a possibility. I think that Ireland should be part of the European Union, even though we do not have much room for manoeuvre. I do not think it will be possible to have extensive new negotiations.
We are coming to an end as the delegation has another appointment.
Germany is a major manufacturing country, with companies such as Daimler-Benz, BMW, BASF and Siemens. Is Germany experiencing a similar problem to Ireland with manufacturing moving to low-cost countries, such as India and so on?
Ms Veronika Bellman
We have the problem referred to at home, but only to a limited extent. Those branches that could move to low cost countries have already done so and there are not many left which could still move. In Saxony, from where I come, there was much fear when EU enlargement took place to include the Czech Republic and Poland that many companies would move across the border to these countries and further away also. However, many companies have since come back, as they have learned to appreciate the rule of law and the fact that things work, even though it may be somewhat bureaucratic. Also, the labour force maintains good discipline which is not always the case in these other countries. These are the reasons some of the companies are returning.
I refer to the comments of Senator Hanafin. We must increase and strengthen the relationships within the countries of the European Union before we move further afield to the east, except perhaps for countries that are candidates to join the Union. Given the situation with EU enlargement and the possibility that there will be a new member, namely, Croatia, perhaps next year would be a good time for Ireland to reconsider the treaty in a referendum. However, Ireland must make this decision. A "No" vote in the referendum is not a good reason to keep existing relationships between Ireland and Germany in the industry and tourism sectors. In these circumstances there is no question that we should stop such good relationships. However, a good relationship could help Ireland.
The EU decided on an umbrella solution to address the financial situation. It suggests everyone must do their share, but in the end solutions must be found at national level, which is a very good and helpful umbrella. I agree with the committee that we should meet more often to develop our political relationships.
I thank the delegation for an interesting discussion. I understand we will meet later this evening. I wish the delegation success for the remainder of its trip which we hope has been of benefit in gathering vital information to meet European requirements for which we all have responsibility.
Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen
We will take many ideas home with us. Before leaving, I wish to make a presentation of classical music from Berlin for enjoyment during hours that are not so turbulent.
I thank the delegation and, in return, offer a token or memento of its visit to Ireland. It is a flavour of Ireland which the delegation can bring back home.
Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen
I thank the committee.