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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union) debate -
Thursday, 30 Oct 2008

Impact of Lisbon Treaty Referendum Result: Discussion.

I welcome our guests, Mr. David Byrne and Dr. Noel Dorr. I shall explain where we stand and what we hope to do this morning. The sub-committee was set up to examine Ireland's future in the European Union. We have broken our terms of reference into a work programme with four modules. We have invited a variety of guests, experts and speakers to discuss each module. This morning the sub-committee is looking at two particular points, on which it would appreciate the testimony of its guests. We ask for their views on the impact the Lisbon treaty referendum result has had on Ireland's influence within the European Union, in particular within the institutions of the European Council and the European Commission. Much of the work the sub-committee is doing in this module involves an examination of the European institutions. Yesterday we looked at the European Parliament. The sub-committee would be grateful if our guests focused on the European Council and the Commission. Ten minutes are allowed to each guest in which to make points. The discussion will then be opened to the floor. There is a lead speaker programme, with each speaker having ten minutes to put questions to and receive answers from our guests. The discussion will then be opened up to the entire meeting.

I thank our guests for attending. I have some procedural business regarding privilege to attend to, with which they will be familiar. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee. I remind my colleagues of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. David Byrne

I thank the Chairman and members of the sub-committee. It is a pleasure for me to be invited to address them.

I have been invited to express my views on Ireland's future in the European Union, the challenges it faces and the implications of the Lisbon treaty referendum result with regard to Ireland's influence within the European Union and globally, with particular reference to the perspective of the European Commisssion. My remarks are based mainly on my experience during the period I served as European Commissioner under Mr. Romano Prodi, 1999 to 2004, and also on my observations of events since, particularly leading up to the Lisbon treaty referendum and its aftermath.

I thought I would commence with some words on Irish attitudes to the European Union and how these are reflected. In my judgment and from speaking to contacts and colleagues and people I know in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe, the result of the Lisbon treaty referendum caused dismay and incomprehension, particularly on the Continent. The country that had gained most from membership of the European Union had blocked progress that had been identified by the elected leaders of Europe and was thought required by the hugely enlarged European Union that had occurred since May 2004.

Europe found it difficult to understand the "No" decision for a number of reasons. First, prior to the referendum a Eurobarometer study had shown that Irish attitudes to the European Union are quite positive. Second, the realisation that the campaign had focused on issues and that the outcome was determined by concerns unassociated with Lisbon, or issues that had already been comprehensively dealt with in previous referendum campaigns. In one or two instances issues were raised that demonstrably had absolutely nothing to do with Lisbon. Even the people putting forward those arguments accepted that was the case. That was surprising to observers from outside Ireland.

Let me return briefly to the Eurobarometer study and examine some of the trends emerging immediately prior to the vote. It was found that Irish levels of support for the European Union have remained high over the past 20 years at a time when support for the Union across member states had shown a decline. The study was carried out in March 2008. A total of 82% of Irish people surveyed believed Ireland had benefited from membership of the European Union, the highest such score in Europe. That compares with a European average of 54%. A total of 73% thought that membership had been a good thing. However, attitudes to the European Union are obviously shaped by knowledge of the institutions and how Europe works. That Eurobarometer study showed that Irish knowledge of European Union affairs is below average. More than one fifth of Irish respondents were unable to answer any one of a set of questions asked, which was below average.

Identity was also an issue throughout the referendum campaign that may have affected the outcome. A total of 59% of people felt very attached to Ireland. However, only 10% felt the same about the European Union. A similar significant number felt no sense of European identity at all. A total of 46% said they felt no attachment to the European Union. When asked to look at their future identity, three fifths opted exclusively for an Irish identity rather than a combination of Irish and European. The European Commission took the view that the results placed Ireland among the most nationally-oriented member states of the European Union. I concur with that view, which is probably an important finding.

That raises the question of sovereignty and our attitude to it. It must be remembered that the Irish people agreed to the concept of the pooling of sovereignty in the original European referendum in 1972. It follows that the concept of the pooling of sovereignty is recognised by the Constitution, as amended at that time. Successive referenda have confirmed that. I have often explained the pooling of sovereignty as giving a little and getting a lot. The benefits Ireland has enjoyed from the European Union over the years have been enormous and there has been no price to pay for that.

If we look at the current circumstances in which we find ourselves and pose a few pertinent questions I believe that becomes self-evident. What would have happened to an independent Irish currency in recent weeks? How much more would mortgage holders have been paying for the price of an independent sovereign currency? Would Ireland Inc. be at the complete mercy of international sovereign wealth funds? Would Ireland have a say in shaping new global financial governance systems? What would Ireland's influence be in the WTO as the 153rd member fighting on its own to defend its key agricultural interests? Could Ireland negotiate international investment treaties to protect foreign direct investment in third countries without the weight of the European Union behind it? Looking at the issue from another perspective, to my knowledge, Ireland has preserved all of its key national interests intact as a member of the European Union club.

To return to the issue of foreign direct investment, there certainly has been anecdotal evidence — this has also been said to me — that considerable surprise has been expressed in quarters other than the European Union, including the United States from where substantial investment is attracted into Ireland and on which we have relied heavily. The economy has greatly benefited as a result. I do not want to overemphasise it, but it has been raised as an issue, essentially by way of a query, "Where stands Ireland in relation to the European Union? What is the nature of its relationship and the level of contact?"

We know from studies that have been undertaken that US companies like to invest in Ireland because there is access to the European Union, because of its place within the European Union and its acknowledged influence within the systems of decision making. The relationship between Ireland and the European Union is an important underpinning influential factor for US companies investing in Ireland. Any challenge to this status, or belief Ireland is going weak in its relationship with the European Union, or feeling Ireland's influence at the heart of Europe is reducing is likely to have ongoing consequences for the relationship between US companies investing here and Ireland. I do not want to overemphasise this as an issue, as it can be fixed. After all, we had a previous referendum in which the people voted "No" and the matter was subsequently resolved by holding another referendum. However, this is an issue that should be kept in mind.

The next point on which I want to touch is the role of the Commission and the expression, "the elites of Europe". During the referendum campaign references were made to the elites of Europe. This was an unfair characterisation, on which I want to touch briefly. Some of those who made the remark were among those who had never put themselves forward for election. They formed part of a membership of an elite of their own. Some of the people who expressed themselves in that manner had recently failed in election campaigns here in Ireland. If one looks at the various European institutions involved in decision making, Members of the European Parliament are elected by the people; the Council of Europe is made up of Ministers from member states, elected by their own populations, while the members of the Commission are nominated by the governments of member states and fully accountable to the European Parliament. Oftentimes I was called at short notice to attend the European Parliament to make a presentation to its Members on some issue within my portfolio which had given rise to a controversy relating to health such as foot and mouth disease, SARS or avian influenza. I was required to present myself at very short notice. The Commission has very limited powers when it comes to legislation, but retains the sole right of initiative, which is extremely important. This means that, in effect, it holds the ring to ensure the protection of the interests of small member states.

The Lisbon treaty is necessary. It is a pity that the role of the press during the election campaign was seen in many quarters to be against the referendum campaign. A study conducted by the European Commission subsequently indicated that there was a deep vein of Euroscepticism in the Irish media, particularly but not exclusively in the British-owned press. Many commentators repeatedly suggested the treaty was not necessary. That analysis was fundamentally wrong. I will not go into all the reasons the treaty is necessary, but want to draw the sub-committee's attention to one aspect, the need to have a permanent President of the European Council. The rotating Presidencies lack continuity and create confusion for our partners outside Europe. France currently holds the rotating Presidency. We have seen the strong, clear leadership of the European Union provided by President Sarkozy during two recent crises, namely, the conflict between Georgia and Russia and, more recently, the crisis on the financial markets. The French President has demonstrated that Europe can take its responsibility to show leadership in the world. This is of critical importance and, had it been passed, the Lisbon treaty would have had a crucial role in this regard.

It should not be up to the president or prime minister of one of the member states of the European Union to provide leadership. It is much better if such leadership is provided by an institution of the European Union, whether the Commission or, as in the case of President Sarkozy, the President of the Council. In the case of the Council, the President is seen to be a leader for the European Union as opposed to a leader of one of the member states. While President Sarkozy did a good job, I would prefer if this job were done by a president of one of the institutions holding the ring, as it were, for the entire membership of the EU. I will withhold further comment until the question and answer session.

Dr. Noel Dorr

I thank the Chairman and members of the sub-committee for inviting me to appear before them. I should make clear that I am a retired official of the Department of Foreign Affairs and, as such, my remarks will be based on past experience and what I read in newspapers. While I am flattered to be described as Dr. Dorr, I am embarrassed at using the title as it is arises from an honorary degree. Notwithstanding the fact that I chair the governing authority of NUI, Galway, I do not represent the university.

I appreciate that the sub-committee's concern in this module is not the Lisbon treaty or European Union but the effect of Ireland's "No" vote. Nevertheless, with the permission of the sub-committee, I will begin with some general comments which lead directly into what I wish to say about Ireland's role.

Over the years, I have become more convinced of the importance of the European Union and, correspondingly, glad of Ireland's role in its construction. This is because I am old enough to remember Europe without the European Union. When I was a child, Europe was at war. A totalitarian state occupied most of the European land mass, thousands of bomber air raids were devastating the central part of the Continent and European railway lines were carrying hundreds of thousands of people to genocidal death on an industrial scale.

After the war and for most of my adult life, the Continent was split into two hostile parts by a line running down the centre of Germany. Across that line two nuclear armed alliances confronted each other and one was willing to use nuclear weapons if the massed tanks of the other advanced across the north German plain. That was still true only 20 years ago.

In Europe today, 27 states, stretching from Connemara to Bulgaria and Sweden to Cyprus, have come together voluntarily and by democratic choice to form a wholly new kind of international structure, namely, a union of states and peoples — I emphasise the importance of the words "states" and "peoples". This union involves a certain pooling of sovereignty in limited, specified areas, which is exercised by institutions that are carefully structured to reflect the union's character as a union of states and peoples. The European Union is explicitly based on the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and the rule of law. The relevant article, which was written by Ireland in precisely these terms, was incorporated into the Treaty of Amsterdam in 1997.

While the European Union is not without its problems and difficulties, the contrast with the past and the childhood I described is so great that for all its inadequacies I marvel at and value greatly what has been achieved. I emphasise also the part played by Ireland in that achievement. We tend to talk about the vision of the founders of the European Community in the 1950s. What we have today is not only what Monnet and others planned but an organic growth which was shaped according to what successive generations of political leaders in European states, including Ireland, found it possible to agree together in a series of treaties over a half a century. Their negotiations reflected, on the one hand, a pragmatic concern by each member state to safeguard its identity and interest and, on the other, a shared commitment to a larger and more generous vision of a European continent at peace with itself for the first time in its history and capable of playing a constructive role in the world.

In July 1961, Ireland became the first state outside the original six members to apply for membership of the European Economic Community and has played a full part in the Community since joining 35 years ago. I emphasise that Ireland has played a part in shaping the European Union of today. It is in some part our creation and is shaped in a way that safeguards our interests and those of other small member states. In international life, larger countries can thrive without much structure, but smaller countries depend on a structured system. We have achieved that to a high degree in the European Union. This is evident from the fact that the Union has proved enormously attractive, in growing from six to 27 members. It has a sort of economic and political gravitational pull which has drawn country after country towards it. It is a kind of soft power exercise throughout the European region, a power based not on an impulse to control or dominate, but on attraction. This persuades other countries to accept its principles and values. They are willing to adopt democracy, commit themselves to it and human rights and share sovereignty in carefully specified areas. This pull is still at work in the Balkan area today and is quite important.

I turn now more specifically to Ireland's position as a member state. We are all rightly proud of the assertion of Ireland's sovereign independence by our parents and grandparents and we are right in wanting to maintain it. However, the world around us changes and it is important to understand how the sovereignty our ancestors achieved can best be preserved and exercised in the complex, interconnected, international system of today. I was very struck by a definition I came across some time ago. It suggests that sovereignty for a small country nowadays means having a seat at the table where the decisions which affect it deeply are made. Because Seán Lemass realised that, he submitted our application to join the Union in 1961. This has been fundamental to our membership over the years. It has also informed our decision to be in at the foundation of economic and monetary union. This idea of being at the centre of things, where one's interests are affected, is not too far from an Irish proverb I remember from my school days — Muna bhfuil ach pocaide gabhair agat, bí i lár an aonaigh leis. If you have nothing to sell but a he-goat, be in the centre of the fair with it.

I stress that from the outset, Ireland has followed the principle of seeking as far as possible to be fully involved and to play a full part, because that was in our interest. The question I am being asked to comment on by the sub-committee is whether our ability to do that has been affected by the Lisbon vote. I think it has. I say that, because from my experience, the fundamental point about the European Union is that it is built not on domination, but on compromise and the key to Ireland's success within it has been influence, not power — soft power. We have been influential within the Union.

At home, the focus has often been on the economic and financial benefits of membership, the CAP and Structural Funds. However, in Brussels, from the beginning, as far back as the public statements of Lemass in 1961 and of Jack Lynch in 1972 during the negotiations, we have presented ourselves not as a reluctant member, but as a small democratic country that understood the fundamental concepts underlying the European project and wanted to work to achieve them. Naturally, Ireland had its own interests and concerns, but once they were safeguarded, we showed a willingness to work with others and help to find compromises. This was most evident in the handling by Irish Ministers and officials of six successive Presidencies of the Union.

For all these reasons, we were seen by our partners as a good member state. We benefited accordingly and also gained a reputation for having put the funds we received to good use. I do not want to labour the point, but we must remember that the benefits Ireland received from the various EU funds were never simply there for the taking. They were a matter for negotiation at all times and Ireland gained in that negotiation from its good reputation. I venture to say that the high point of this positive image of Ireland must have been that May morning in 2004 when 27 Heads of State and Government gathered at Áras an Uachtaráin to welcome the ten new members. We were at the pinnacle of our influence in Europe at that time.

The sub-committee might ask why I say this good reputation has been affected by the result of the Lisbon referendum. Before I respond, I wish to make it clear that the Irish electorate was fully entitled to make the decision it did. That is not in dispute, nor do I dispute it. The treaty can come into force only if it is ratified in due form by all 27 member states, but by a substantial majority, we have said "No" to it. However, in this, as in every aspect of human life, decisions have consequences. These often give rise to other decisions and choices for the road ahead. One consequence of our decision of 12 June was to leave most of our EU partners puzzled and disappointed. This, in turn, has weakened our influence and standing among them, which had been very high. It has temporarily weakened the position of the Union itself because it is still regarded as being divided.

Two reasons added in a particular way to the reaction of other member states. First, the treaty was the outcome of seven years of difficult negotiations. It was certainly not perfect, but for the most part our partners were ready to accept it as a reasonable compromise that would not give them all they wanted but would free the Union for a long time from the seemingly interminable debate on its own structures and procedures — this has been called naval gazing — and allow it to focus more effectively on the many serious and substantive issues it faces and on what it could do about them. For this reason, our partners accepted it as a compromise and persuaded their respective parliaments to accept and ratify it, as the Irish Government did through the Dáil and Seanad. The member states now face a dilemma. They are willing to allow Ireland time to think through its position but, as I read it — I am dependent on what I read — they have absolutely no appetite for renegotiation.

The second reason that has added to member states' disappointment is that while they accept the right of the Irish electorate to say "No", as they must, they find it rather hard to understand clearly just why it did so. We know ourselves there was a variety of reasons, some of which were based on legitimate criticisms of the treaty or on its complexity and others of which were based on simple misunderstandings or misinformation. Our partners are that much less patient with our decision because they believe that even if they were open to renegotiation, which I do not believe they are, we would find it very hard to suggest what reasonable changes the Irish Government could look for. Even if the electorate was fully within its rights, we must accept there was a consequence to its decision. What we did has greatly weakened our influence among member states. This matters because, as I stated, influence and the ability to build alliances and coalitions within the Council have been the key to our success in the Union.

It is deeply ironic that the argument that the Lisbon treaty would mean a loss of power by Ireland carried such weight in our referendum. Our present voting weight in the Council is seven out of 345, which is just over 2% of the total. Votes are rare in the Council but if there were a vote, waiving our 2% would count for little. It is strange that, in an endeavour to hold on to what we believed was power, we may have given up much of the influence that was always of real importance and benefit to us.

I will conclude by acknowledging that the Lisbon treaty referendum result in Ireland and the similar results of referenda on the constitutional treaty in France and the Netherlands point to a serious problem of communication with the public that the institutions and the political leaders of the European Union need to address. It is not entirely on our side. In the future, when a treaty is being negotiated, serious thought will have to be given to how it is presented. It must be explained to the citizens of the Union. I have suggested elsewhere that, as a minimum, the Council's secretariat in Brussels should be asked to provide an authoritative explanatory memorandum to the treaty in readable terms, just as a complex Bill before the Dáil is accompanied by an explanatory memorandum. The Council's explanatory memorandum could, if necessary, be approved by the EU leaders. That would be a basis for discussion and debate, especially in a country like ours which seems to need to have referenda.

I am glad the Irish feel a sense of ownership of their Constitution but I do not believe they should be asked to vote in a referendum on a complex treaty of that kind if it is not necessary to do so. If it is not necessary to change the Constitution, people should not be asked to do so. As I have suggested elsewhere, just as we have a provision in the Constitution that allows the President to refer a Bill to the Supreme Court for a decision on its constitutionality before signing it, at some future date it will be important to have a similar provision to allow the President to refer a draft treaty to the Supreme Court for a judgment on whether a constitutional amendment is necessary before ratification. These, however, are very long-term issues and are not immediately relevant. I mentioned them because they are important.

I was asked for my view on whether the referendum result has affected Ireland's position of influence in the European Union. Sadly, I believe it has.

I thank both delegates for their submissions.

I will emphasise again how time will be allocated. We will now proceed to our lead speaker programme, in which every contributor will have ten minutes. I shall remind speakers when four minutes have elapsed and they will know how much time is left. After that, every speaker will have six minutes and we shall conclude with one minute for final questions. My role as chairman will be to ensure that everybody keeps time and it will be up to people to make use of that time as they see fit. When we start drafting the report we shall then decide what is within or outside our terms of reference. All this work is leading towards getting that report ready.

I welcome Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr and thank them for their contributions which have been insightful and helpful in the context of our deliberations on Ireland's future role in the EU.

I will pick up on some points and pose some questions to the guests. I would like to get a sense from Mr. Byrne, as a former EU Commissioner, of how he feels Ireland, the country that rejected the Lisbon treaty, is now viewed within the European Commission. Given that the Commission operates on the basis of collegiality and collective responsibility, does he feel that Ireland's influence within the Commission, and generally within the EU institutions, has been weakened or undermined pending the outcome of the Lisbon reform process in the interim period?

Might Mr. Byrne comment on the issue of the reduction of the size of the Commission? One of the main points put forward by the "No" side during the campaign was that Ireland would lose its Commissioner. Given that the Nice treaty provided for a reduction in the Commission, I ask Mr. Byrne to outline how that reduction might take effect if Lisbon is not ratified. What will happen from November onwards?

I have a question for both guests. Both have alluded to a sense that there is no willingness or determination within other member states to re-open the negotiation process in terms of the key Lisbon reforms. One of the issues put forward during the campaign was that we should go back and seek a better deal. I respect the opinions of both guests. Do they believe there is a better deal to be negotiated for Ireland? Is that a realistic prospect? If we do not hold a second referendum on Lisbon, or if we do and it is again rejected by the people, do the guests believe that the other member states are determined enough to find a legal mechanism to implement the key reforms? Or might they introduce a second tier within Europe to which Ireland would be relegated?

Yesterday we had delegations from the IDA and Enterprise Ireland that touched on one of the points made by Mr. Byrne in respect of foreign direct investment but also covering decisions that indigenous Irish businesses must make about where they will invest their funding. The delegates made it clear that there are no immediate consequences from our rejection of Lisbon but they said that was based on an expectation in the corporate world that this issue will be resolved. If it is not resolved and if Ireland does not put forward a second referendum, or if it does and the treaty is again rejected, do the guests believe there will be consequences in terms of flows of investment into Ireland?

Dr. Dorr gave a very good oversight of the origin of the European project and how it has resolved some of the fundamental issues of conflict since the Second World War. Where does he believe Europe is going? That is one of the questions I was asked during the referendum debate. How far will the process of integration go? We are all aware of the competences that have been conferred on Europe but there is a degree of suspicion among the general public that we are signing away our sovereignty bit by bit and that the process of European integration is going to an unknown destination. Perhaps Dr. Dorr will comment on that.

Dr. Noel Dorr

I have made a note of Deputy McGrath's questions.

I believe there is no willingness to renegotiate the treaty but that is a judgment and I said at the outset that I am retired from the Department of Foreign Affairs. However, it is a judgment based on my own experience. My most recent official involvement was after I retired in 1995 as what is now called Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs. I was asked to take on the role of personal representative of the Minister for Foreign Affairs for the negotiation of the Amsterdam treaty and subsequently the Nice treaty. In that role I was the Irish representative supported by a small team from the Department of Foreign Affairs on the working group that did the drafting. We met every week in Brussels and we chaired the group in 1996 during our Presidency and produced the first draft of the treaty. I have had some experience of the difficultly of negotiation and the need for compromise. We believe that we safeguarded all of Ireland's concerns and interests in those negotiations. My judgment from a distance is that it would be extremely difficult now to renegotiate. There is no second deal available in so far as I can see.

As to whether there will be a second referendum or a second tier, I do not think that would come immediately. It is clear that we are entitled to say "No". We are even entitled to sit on our hands and do nothing further. That is the way the law is, so to speak, but in the real world it is hardly an option. If the electorate in one small member state with less than 1% of the total population decides to block a treaty, which all other members have ratified, and does so for a variety of reasons that one cannot fully explain and are not easily understood, and if the government refuses to do anything except sit on its hands then it would arouse a high degree of impatience. Where that would lead is a matter of speculation. There are provisions in the existing treaties for what is called enhanced co-operation. That provides for a smaller group, such as the euro group, going ahead within the larger whole. However, the provisions which I was involved in drafting are very tightly drawn. We did not want that to happen and those provisions are so tight as they stand that I do not see that as realistic but I imagine that people would look for some way ahead.

Deputy McGrath asked about the origins of the European Union and where Europe is going. I am struck by the fact that political scientists somehow see the origin of our present world of nation states as going back to Europe a few centuries ago. It evolved in Europe so to speak and then became worldwide. I am intrigued by the thought that perhaps in Europe after all the turmoil and trouble of our history, which troubled the rest of the world through colonial rule, we are painfully and slowly evolving some new kind of system which is a union of states and of peoples. It is neither a state, and does not want to be one, nor is it a federal or confederal state, but it is more than any other international organisation because it reaches down to the people and involves a system of law. It is a very carefully balanced structure and people always want to push it in one direction or the other. Some want to make it more of a federal state and some want to make it more of a popular system with, for example, people voting for the Commission. It is a novel and unique experiment and I hope it is a model the world will move towards a bit more.

As to how far this process will go in Europe, there is a careful pooling of sovereignty and it is very carefully spelled out. The sovereignty that is pooled is limited. One of the merits of the new treaty was that it spelled out very clearly issues of competence, what is a competence and what is not. It depends on the principle of conferral. As I understand it, unless one confers a competence on the institutions, it remains with the member state. It is all carefully spelled out and it is carefully negotiated. It has taken seven years to negotiate. It may not succeed down the line in 50 or 100 years. Who knows? I am very interested in seeing it as what John Hume once called the greatest peace process. Its effect on the Continent is remarkable when I consider my childhood. I remember as a child reading the newspapers with a big black arrow showing the armies advancing towards each other across central Europe and the contrast is so great. I accept the European Union has faults but I am very enthusiastic about it still and I hope it develops. I do not know how far it will go but I too am interested in Irish sovereignty. I do not want to give it away unnecessarily but I am prepared to pool it and we have done so with the approval of the people in a number of referenda and I hope we can continue.

Mr. David Byrne

The first question Deputy McGrath asked me was how Ireland is viewed in the European Commission following the referendum decision and whether there has been any undermining of Ireland's influence there. I cast my mind back to when I served as a Commissioner in the EU, at the time of the first Nice referendum campaign, when there was a "No" finding. Once again, there was quite a degree of dismay and surprise on that occasion. However, the fact that happened has two different effects. One is the belief that the Commission and the institutions of the European Union now know that this has happened before and was resolved, leading to an expectation that it can be resolved again. The belief is that we are in some sense in a place of suspension until there is a clear outcome as regards how we move forward. On the one hand there is a feeling of co-operation and understanding and a willingness to help resolve the issue. We have certainly heard soundings from the European Council, the Council of Ministers and in particular the legal service of the Council to the effect that whatever assistance they can give will be provided. That is a very positive aspect.

On the other side of the coin is the reaction to the effect, "They have done it again". This is the second time where the Government of a member state, Ireland, signed a treaty but failed to get it ratified. We have done it twice in succession within less than a decade. Does that raise the question in people's minds in the European Union as to whether we are reliable partners? Can Europe be sure that if the Irish Government goes in a particular direction, it can deliver? That undoubtedly puts a question mark over our reliability as partners in Europe. The fact that our population is equivalent to 1% of the EU's population is not to say that we are not entitled to our view. We are, and Europe recognises that each member state is entitled to have its own ratification process, which we have, and that is fully respected. However, it is also recognised that a ratification process by way of referendum is difficult, complex, with a good deal of politics involved and needs extremely careful handling.

The Supreme Court expressed a view on this in the various Crotty, McKenna and Coughlan decisions. In the Coughlan case it is interesting to look at what Judge Barrington said, admittedly in a minority judgement. He said:

The people are the ultimate sovereign, but there is no constitutional device which will ensure that their ultimate decision will be infallible, or even that it will be prudent, just or wise. The most we can hope for in relation to any sovereign, including the sovereign people, is that before making any decision it will be well informed and well advised. In this context, to play down or neutralise the role of political leaders in favour of committed amateurs, would be, to say the least, unwise.

There is an element of that in what we have just seen.

I welcome both speakers to the sub-committee today and thank them for their contributions. Both touch on the issue of Ireland's influence within the European Union and perhaps they might give us some concrete examples of occasions in the past where, because of its standing in the EU, Ireland was able to promote its own interests or particular policy positions.

The second issue refers to Dr. Dorr's point about the EU being a Union of states and peoples. I certainly agree. The EU over the past 15 years has been largely a Union of states. I am not so sure as regards the Union of peoples and that is where the challenge lies in terms of trying to engage the citizens of Europe. Mr. Byrne mentioned the low levels of knowledge here about EU institutions. We have had several referendums in Ireland, so we have had to go to the people, consult them and inform them. One can only imagine what the levels of information might be like in other member states where parliamentary ratification has been the mode for ratifying various European treaties. Do either speakers believe there is a need for something like a permanent EU information service in each member state to try to provide relevant information to citizens about the European Union, its institutions and how they function?

On the issue of European identity and Europeanisation, it was interesting to learn that Ireland has been identified as one of the most nationally oriented member states. We have a strong attachment to our national identity. One of the useful aspects of the Lisbon treaty was that it set out a concept of European citizenship which complemented rather than competed with national citizenship. Should the European Union establish a cultural programme to help citizens reconcile the idea of a European and national citizenship, in other words, that they can have multiple or dual citizenship?

Mr. Byrne referred to popular ideas about elites running the European Union. Unfortunately, the Commission, with which Mr. Byrne will be familiar, is often viewed as exemplifying the idea that unelected bureaucrats run the EU and make decisions which are then imposed on the citizens of Europe. How does he respond to that view? Commissioners are appointed rather than elected and have significant power. Do Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr have any suggestions about how the Commission could become more connected to citizens and national parliaments or a little more visible given that Commissioners are regarded as faceless and nameless? With the exception of one or two high profile individuals, few Commissioners are known to citizens. Should the Commission be a little more visible and connected to member states and citizens?

Mr. David Byrne

On the question of the influence of Ireland in the European Union, two directors-general of the Commission, the leaders of the civil service of the European Union, have been Irish. One of them, Ms Catherine Day, addressed the sub-committee last week. Mr. David O'Sullivan was also a director-general of the European Commission.

Ireland had a significant influence on the agreement on the constitution for Europe, the precursor to the Lisbon treaty. When the Italian Presidency, which preceded the Irish Presidency, failed to produce an agreement, there was a general concern that the Presidency of a small state such as Ireland would not be able to handle the issue and it would be preferable to leave it for the Dutch, who assumed the Presidency after Ireland, to resolve. The Irish Presidency successfully delivered an agreement. I concur with Noel Dorr that 1 May 2004 was the high point of Ireland's membership of the European Union. I was present in Áras an Uachtaráin on that occasion and the sense of pride was tremendous.

As regards the contribution I made on various issues and Ireland's support for extending food safety, I established the European Food Safety Authority on which Ireland had a strong influence. The work I did on tobacco gave impetus to a view in Ireland that it would be positive to move in a similar direction. My work was done for the entire European Union, rather than only on behalf of Ireland.

On the issue of elites in Europe, we expect the institutions of the European Union to follow what might be loosely described as the Westminster model with members of the executive being elected. This model is unique to Ireland and Britain and is not often adopted by other member states where elected members of parliament who are appointed to the government must resign their parliamentary position. The reason is that the separation of powers is taken seriously on the Continent, whereas in Ireland the concept of the separation of powers tends to refer to the separation of the Executive from the Judiciary. On the Continent, the concept also extends to the separation of the legislature from the executive. This notion permeates the institutions of the European Union.

As I indicated, Commissioners are nominated by the elected members of their respective countries and are accountable to the European Parliament in the same way as many national governments in the European Union are accountable to their parliaments. The Commission has vestigial legislative powers. Its legislative role is minor because the legislative bodies of the EU are the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. The Commission's principal power is that it has sole right of initiative. The advantage of that is that it is able to hold the ring and is not answerable to any individual member state. If it were otherwise and member states could bring forward legislative proposals, there would be a strong possibility that the powerful member states with large civil services would present ideas without fully taking into account the interests of the smaller member states. To that extent, we must understand the role of the European Commission before it can be criticised for it being unelected and so on. It is not intended that it be elected and it is better it is not, for the reasons I have identified. However, with regard to whether the Commissioners should be more visible, I believe they should be. They should be out and about more, should be known more and be more visible. I tried to do that in my time and had some good spokespersons working for me, one of whom was Irish. I always believed that was important. I remember Romano Prodi said to me at the beginning:

You have the portfolio of consumer protection. You must get out there and be known. Speak yourself, be on television more than others. Do not rely on your spokespersons because being the representative for consumer interests, you must be known.

I sought to do that. More should be done in that area.

Dr. Noel Dorr

Senator de Búrca asked five questions to which I will try to give a brief response. The most obvious public example of influence would be in the Structural Funds area where we benefited from the approval of Chancellor Kohl, François Mitterand and Jacques Delors. They all felt that Ireland was doing its bit, was an enthusiastic member state and was using the funds well. That came through in the granting of the funds, which were not there for the taking, but had to be negotiated. We benefited substantially from them. I found our influence important again when negotiating and chairing the group drafting the Amsterdam treaty in 1996.

The Union is largely a union of states and peoples over the past 50 years. However, it is carefully structured. There is a separation of powers between the institutions. We have direct democracy in the election to the Parliament and representative democracy in the attendance of Ministers at the Council. They are now co-legislators and must both approve legislation. It is a carefully structured system. It is not similar to the United States nor to a national state. It reflects the character of what I described, namely, a union of states and peoples, but everyone wants to push it one side or the other.

I agree with the Senator that the people must be brought along more. The great theme after the Danes rejected the Maastricht referendum in 1992 was to get closer to the people and citizens. That has been a theme for a long time, but is not always well carried through. In 1996, when the Irish Presidency was drafting the first draft of the Amsterdam treaty for presentation in December 1996, we were very conscious of that theme. We worked hard to present the treaty in a form which had a page or two of explanation of each proposal and the need for it and then the legal text proposed. That was well received and understood at the time by journalists. I admit it is easier to do a first draft than to produce the final treaty. However, the European Union, once it adopts a treaty, loses sight of the need to explain it. What happens then is the treaty goes to the legal people and what results is often unreadable. I am more convinced than ever that Ireland, because it so often has a referendum, has a particular role for the future in insisting that equal weight be given to the presentation of what is agreed as to the agreement itself. I have suggested some ways of doing that. We seem to have lost sight of this, but it is vital we try to do it.

On the issue of a permanent EU information service in each member state, there are offices of the Parliament and the Commission, but perhaps they could be more active. I agree on the need for European identity and cultural programmes. One of the programmes we have that creates the idea of our dual identities is the Erasmus programme for young people that gives them the freedom to travel all over Europe. How different this is from 50 years ago when I was student. Such programmes create a sense that we can be proud of being Irish and of our sovereignty, but at the same time be honest and willing partakers in this wonderful compromise structure we are creating together in Europe.

With regard to elites, Mr. Byrne has talked about the Commission. I would not dare to talk about it, as he is a distinguished former member of it. The Commission is appointed, but so are judges. We accept judges are appointed and do not wish to elect them, at least on this side of the Atlantic. Under the new treaty considerable progress was made in this area. The President of the Commission would have to be approved by the Parliament. The appointment would take account of the result of the elections to the Parliament. In other words, the implication was that the majority in the Parliament would be reflected to some extent in the Commission. Second, the body of the Commission, once appointed, would have to go before the Parliament for a vote of approval, as is already the case. Third, the Parliament can sack the Commission, as it has done. There is this check. The idea of electing Commissioners who are mostly former politicians seems appealing at first sight and is spoken about a lot but the more one moves towards the direct election of Commissioners, the more one is moving towards a federal state. My point is always that there should be a balance between a union of states and peoples. There is a direct election process for the Parliament and representative democracy in the Council, at which Ministers represent governments and speak for states. However, the direct election of Commissioners is exactly the kind of step of which those who want to move towards a more federal model would approve. We must not overlook this point.

I thank both delegates for their very valuable contributions. Dr. Dorr stated the Lisbon treaty was largely to free the European Union from interminable debate on structures and procedures. The debate was obviously focused largely on the institutions. Was the writing not on the wall immediately when we tried to pass a treaty about institutions about which the people knew very little? They know little enough about local authority and Oireachtas institutions and very few know anything about EU institutions. The manner in which the EU institutions were to be dealt with was perceived as a grab for power by these institutions in that the Commission was to be reduced in size and there was to be a permanent Presidency. The rotating Presidency involving member states which resulted in equality might have been perceived as being reduced. As the delegates stated, the Irish Presidency of the Union was a massive triumph for this small country and, therefore, the rotating Presidency was regarded as a mechanism that should be jealously guarded. That a great number of veto powers was being eliminated was a factor. Would all of these factors not have led to a suspicion that we were giving power to what the "No" campaign described frequently as "elite institutions"?

The perceptions that obtain certainly suggest there should be readable explanatory memoranda to the treaties, as Dr. Dorr suggested. Even so, if the Lisbon treaty is to be put to the people again, one could be a devil's advocate and state it is essentially to reform the institutions, notwithstanding that I believe it is for the better. Can we expect the people to be more knowledgeable the next time around? Is it still possible to make an explanatory memorandum available?

Dr. Dorr made an interesting point on the question of the President referring a treaty to the Supreme Court for a decision on its constitutionality. Is this legally possible? If, as has happened, the Attorney General rules that a treaty offends the Constitution, what scope is there for the Government to refer it to the President such that it could be referred to the Supreme Court?

I have some questions for Mr. Byrne on the Commission which is regarded as the most bureaucratic and remote of the institutions. It has pretty much the sole right to initiate legislation. In an earlier module we discussed how this Parliament could participate at the earliest stage in the production of legislation. How can our national Parliament have a greater input? How does the Commission put together its annual work programme? What level of consultation is there? Who are the stakeholders of the Commission? Does it consult with various bodies such as the institutions of the European Union and outside stakeholders? Is there any reason it cannot consult with national parliaments at the very earliest stage in the production of legislation?

In terms of our response to the Lisbon referendum, do the guests envisage any way forward without a second referendum? Is there any other mechanism available that might achieve what we seek without that referendum? How do they view the area of declarations and opt-outs?

Dr. Noel Dorr

Deputy Costello talked about the interminable debate to which I referred and about the difficulty in getting across the changes in the institutions and the possibility of seeing this as a grab for power. We are the only member state that seems to find it necessary to have a referendum to change our Constitution. As a citizen, I am proud of our attachment and ownership of the Constitution and am proud that the people must be consulted. At the same time I realise it is extremely difficult to explain a complex legal document just as it would be to have a referendum on the Finance Bill. I assume that would be very difficult. That puts a particular onus on us to explain issues to the people. It is common ground now that the explanations and the campaign for this treaty were not as well handled as they should have been.

Deputy Costello talked about the Commission being reduced and the question of a permanent president. I mentioned earlier that I was the Irish representative on the official level drafting group for both the Amsterdam and Nice treaties, with the help of a small team from the Department of Foreign Affairs. I spent two years working on the Amsterdam treaty and almost a year on the Nice treaty. All along I argued on behalf of Ireland for one Commissioner per member state as a minimum. We argued strongly that it was important, not that the Commissioners represent a country because they must be above that, but that the voice of the country would be heard when initial proposals were made and that this would be understood around the Commission table. The final judgment in the Commission is made by majority vote so even though there is only one Commissioner at least explanations of what Ireland needs and how it would be affected by proposals would be made. We argued that very strongly up to the very end.

For a long time we had the support of other small member states but gradually, especially during the Nice treaty, they came to accept the argument that as the Commission gets to 27 members and perhaps to 34 eventually, it becomes more a debating society than an effective body. Furthermore the argument was that if Commissioners were appointed from each member state, inevitably they will begin to feel themselves as representing the member states which is not the way the Commission was originally designed. We argued to the very end but it did not carry. There was also a feeling that it was important to do a deal on voting weights and other issues. There are arguments both ways as to having one Commissioner per member state or having a smaller, more effective Commission, namely, effectiveness and representation. It proved an important point in this country, however, and I wonder if this is not something that might have to be reconsidered. I am no longer involved directly.

As to the idea of a permanent president of the European Council, I have always thought it a good thing that the Presidency rotated. It gave each member state a feeling of belonging and participation and also socialised it with regard to the difficulties of getting agreement and compromise. When a member state has the Presidency it must work damn hard to get the compromises. There was the feeling also that when a member state gave up the Presidency it was a bit more open to helping others. On the other hand, lately I have become more convinced by the other argument. This is particularly so when I saw what happened with regard to Georgia and Russia, and what President Sarkozy was able to do, and also when I look at the financial and economic situation and the stock markets. We are dealing with all of these issues which have been described as a tsunami. As I understand it, President Sarkozy is asking to have his role extended beyond the Presidency so that he would be the chairman of the euro group dealing with the euro until the next euro member state takes over, which would be Spain in 2010. That leads me to think it is better to have someone chosen by the Union to speak for the Union than to have one of the more powerful member states, so to speak, acting on behalf of the Union. At the same time it is important to have someone who can be an interlocutor with Russia and can be accepted as such. For all our merits perhaps Ireland might have found it difficult to go to Russia and negotiate a deal. Perhaps we could have done it but I am a little more inclined now to see the merit of a permanent presidency than I was a year ago.

Mr. David Byrne

Deputy Costello inquired about my views on the European Commission. We should not lose sight of the fact that the European Commission has two functions; one is that it is a civil service and the other is that it is the executive body of the European Union. In so far as it performs its civil service function, it is bureaucratic. It is meant to be; that is not a bad word. It is a bureaucracy. In so far as that description might be made of those who carry out the executive function, namely, the Commissioners, I agree that would be a form of description Commissioners would not like to have attached to them. They see themselves as being more akin to a Minister in a member state and therefore should be more political and more visible as Senator de Búrca said earlier. I hesitate to use that description, but it is a loose analogy.

The sole right of initiative is an important protection for small member states. Otherwise, there is a risk that the institutions of the European Union and the laws that are put forward in the Parliament and the Council of Ministers might well be those that are put on the table by the large, powerful civil services of the big member states. The structure that was set up initially was structured in this way to protect the interests of the smaller member states.

Stakeholder consultation is a very important question. It is one of the issues that drives much of the thinking in the European Union at the moment. In fact, the Commission has come forward with and is now operating what it describes as the better regulation initiative. That requires impact assessments on all legislation and stakeholder consultation. That system is in place. I worked with the system, which is now probably operating in a wider and better way than when I was there up to 2004 and I would encourage that development.

The role of national parliaments as stakeholders is something that was considered by the convention in terms of what should be in the constitution and later in the reform treaty. One will find in that document that there is far greater scope for the involvement of national parliaments in that kind of exercise. The Deputy's instinct is absolutely right. We realise that in the past a sufficient degree of attention was not given to the subsidiarity principle, that is, that things that can be done at a lower level — at a non-European Union level — should be done at that level. It was in recognition of the need to promote that concept that the reform treaty was drafted in such a way as to involve national parliaments much more. It contains also the watchdog proposal and the yellow card proposal so that if nine parliaments get together they can stop something happening in certain circumstances. They can certainly slow things up and require that further and deeper consideration would be given to something.

I thank Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr for their contributions. I watched some of what Mr. Byrne had to say on the monitor and I wish to put a few questions to him first about the importance of a Commissioner to Ireland in the context of protecting Irish interests, as opposed to dealing exclusively with an area of responsibility. Those of us on the "Yes" side during the campaign made the case that a Commissioner was not there to represent his or her country but rather to carry out the responsibilities of his or her office. I put the same question last week to Ms Catherine Day, the EU Secretary General, and was surprised by her answer. Dr. Dorr takes much the same line. It is desirable that there be a Commissioner for each country, on which I would welcome the speakers' views.

When Mr. Byrne was a Commissioner, did the Government contact him often, lobby him on issues and use him as a conduit? Was he seen as an Irish Commissioner as opposed to being Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection? Did the Government attempt to involve him in other areas or perhaps brief him accordingly? Did the Irish MEPs contact him much to get him to use his influence to achieve certain policies or block initiatives or have them amended? As he had been Attorney General, one might have said he had been involved in politics per se. What was the one issue that struck him about the European Union and the Commission? Was there any issue that surprised him such that he considered something should be changed? Were there particular shortcomings he had not expected? Often someone coming from outside an institution will see things that others do not.

I have a couple of other points for Mr. Byrne which I will also address to Dr. Dorr. In respect of the Lisbon treaty, does he believe we should have opted in completely to the judicial and home affairs section rather than adopting an à la carte approach? What are his thoughts on Ireland playing a full role in the Common Foreign and Security Policy?

I have a couple of questions for Dr. Dorr. What would he say to people who claim to be pro-European Union and want to be at the heart of Europe, but oppose the Lisbon treaty? Can he reconcile these views? People are perfectly entitled to articulate the view that they are pro-European Union but oppose every treaty and various groups have done this during the years. Has Dr. Dorr ever seen an alternative European model? Has there ever been a cogent coherent model as regards how the European Union might work from those on that side of the argument?

Given his long experience in serving there, does Dr. Dorr have a view on how the Irish vote is viewed from an American perspective? How might the Americans interpret our vote on the Lisbon treaty and what does he believe the impact will be?

Dr. Dorr mentioned changes in EU work practices in the context of power and influence. He also spoke about QMV. Does he believe the new QMV voting arrangements will improve our position? I am not trying to rerun the campaign but one thing that irked me was the claim that we were losing half our voting strength. One could equally have argued that it was actually being doubled. Does Dr. Dorr have a view on whether the QMV arrangements proposed under the Lisbon treaty would give us greater strength in the voting system?

If Ireland does not ratify the Lisbon treaty, how does Dr. Dorr see the European Union developing? What role, if any, would there be for Ireland? What will the position be if the treaty is not ratified before the next British general election and the Conservative Party gains office and holds a referendum as promised, with a "No" vote?

Dr. Dorr has mentioned that he was involved in the negotiations on the Nice treaty. If this does not ring a bell with him, it is perfectly understandable. I actually read the Lisbon treaty, although I found it difficult to do so. I also read the Nice treaty, of which Declaration 20 or 21 dealt with the question of a blocking minority. Declarations are sacrosanct, as opposed to protocols, and have to be renegotiated. On that declaration — Dr. Dorr may check this afterwards if he cannot remember — due to an error in the figures, there was a situation where a majority might not be achieved, but neither would a blocking minority. There was a difference of three votes. If that rings a bell with Dr. Dorr, perhaps he might allude to it because at the time I raised the issue in correspondence with the Minister for Foreign Affairs but never received a satisfactory answer. I am interested in discovering how the problem was overcome because the error exemplifies the claim that deals are done behind closed doors.

Dr. Noel Dorr

I hope I will be able to keep within the time constraints in answering the Deputy's many questions.

On the question of whether we should have opted in to the judicial and home affairs aspects of the Lisbon treaty, while I am not an expert, in general our policy has been to try, in as far as possible, to be at the centre. For this reason, I would be reluctant to opt out if opting in was a possibility. As I indicated, however, I am not an expert in that field.

On the Common Foreign and Security Policy, this is carefully structured. As a citizen, I do not want Ireland to be involved in what I would describe as military adventures, which opponents of the European Union sometimes believe it will do. However, I am proud of the capacity of the European Union, one it is developing in response to requests from the United Nations, to be able to respond when the United Nations needs some type of peacekeeping force. While I do not want Ireland to become more militarised, the CFSP is carefully drafted and the safeguard for Ireland's position is repeated time and again. Drafted by ourselves, inserted in the Maastricht treaty and carried forward in every subsequent treaty, it states nothing in the treaty shall affect the policies of certain member states, for which one should read "Ireland". The treaties also include a reference to NATO because other member states belong to that organisation. I would like Ireland to participate to the greatest possible extent in the good things done. Irish people do not have a full understanding of the good being done in various parts of the world by Irish troops under the CFSP.

Referring to those who opposed the Lisbon treaty and every previous treaty but are pro-European Union, Deputy Timmins asked if I was aware of an alternative model for the Union. I have tried to describe the European Union as I see it, namely, as a union which emerged from the vision of certain people — Jean Monnet and others — in the 1950s and which has grown organically in western Europe and, later, the wider Europe for the past 50 years. It is the outcome of what successive governments were able to negotiate. While all governments looked out for their interests, they had a common commitment to finding solutions. It is hard to imagine an alternative model to the one I describe. It is important to emphasise that the European Union is an organic growth which governments of various political outlooks have managed to negotiate together. It has developed in this way, rather than being imposed from above. I cannot easily see an alternative model.

As to the view in the United States, I am not an expert on this issue and have not been in the United States for a long time. I imagine, however, that its view is probably mixed. While the ordinary American probably does not have a strong view about the European Union, US Administrations always at least say they encourage the coming together of countries in Europe, although they may have some difficulties on particular issues.

On whether Ireland loses strength under the double majority requirement in the new qualified majority voting arrangements, I agree with the Deputy that this issue was misunderstood in the referendum. Ireland's voting strength is 2.03% of the total. When one considers that passing a decision by qualified majority requires around 72% or 73% of votes and our vote accounts for slightly more than 2% of the total, our strength does not cut much ice when votes are taken, which seldom occurs. The new arrangement introduces two requirements. The first is that a particular majority of states must be achieved, while the other is a criterion based on population. If one wants to count in this way which I do not particularly like to do, Ireland benefits and gains from the new arrangement.

Under the Lisbon treaty, where the Council acts on a proposal from the Commission, qualified majority voting will require at least 55% of the member states, comprising at least 15 member states and representing at least 65% of the population. Where the Council is not acting on a proposal from the Commission or High Representative, a qualified majority must be at least 72% of the members of the Council or member states, comprising at least 65% of the population. Therefore, a provision requiring the assent of at least 15 member states, with Ireland having one of 26 votes, appears to be preferable to having a voting weight of 2%. I do not believe, however, that the arrangement really matters because it is not the way decisions are reached. I emphasise again that influence rather than power is what matters. Ireland has had influence which I hope we have not dissipated.

The final question concerned how the European Union would develop if Ireland did not ratify the Lisbon treaty. I do not know, nor do I think anybody knows. I hope it does not come to this.

The Deputy talked about a declaration being sacrosanct, as opposed to a protocol. It is the other way round. A protocol is part of the treaty, whereas a declaration is a political commitment by those who negotiate the treaty.

Sorry, I meant a protocol.

Dr. Noel Dorr

The Deputy mentioned something and I agree with him. There was a strange anomaly in the Nice treaty. Its final negotiation was not very edifying. It happened late at night, at 4 a.m., and there was an oddity in it. Happily, as I disappeared into retirement afterwards, I never got to work on it.

Everybody who has put points will have the opportunity to come back in on any points on which they seek clarification. I ask members to try to keep their questions within the four minute timeframe.

I welcome Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr and apologise for being unable to be here for all of the session.

I wish to put a question to Mr. Byrne wearing his lawyer's hat. It relates to what occurred earlier this year when the European Commission sent reasoned opinions to various member states to fully implement EU rules prohibiting discrimination. The reasoned opinion sent to Ireland complained about a number of issues, but specifically that the exemption granted to religious run institutions which allowed them to uphold their ethos in employment decisions as set out in section 37 of the Employment Equality Act was too broad, given the terms of the EU directive under which the legislation had been introduced. Article 4.2 of the directive in question, of the year 2000, had a more restricted view of exemptions for religious run institutions than the Employment Equality Act 1998. No less a person than Professor Gerry White in the Dublin University Law Journal took the view that the Commission’s reasoned opinion was on solid legal ground in that the directive in question was more restrictive than the exemption provided for in the implementing Irish legislation. From the point of view of those who desired such an exemption, arguably, one could say the reason this happened was that when negotiating at directive stage, the Government did not negotiate broadly enough. Therefore, the Commission was on solid legal ground with its reasoned opinion and in challenging the Irish legislation. We know what happened then. The Commission’s pursuit of Ireland on the issue ended in the midst of the debate on the Lisbon treaty. It is widely accepted that people in Ireland got in touch with others in Brussels and told them to get lost and they duly obliged. Does Mr. Byrne think this shows a certain arbitrariness in how initiatives are taken and power is exercised? Is this arbitrariness troubling to those who might ask: “If a referendum was not being held, would there have been the same result?”

My main question is this: if I were to get my solicitor to brief Mr. Byrne to come up with a mechanism to allow Ireland to have autonomy in such areas — we might call them areas of conscience — but without wanting to opt out, what mechanism would he produce? All this is possible because of the Amsterdam treaty and equality being justiciable. We want this to be the case but there are circumstances in which we might feel that the Commission calling into question our laws cuts across our constitutional and legal values regarding a sensitive social issue. I refer to the right of religious employers to hire and fire according to their ethos and to the extent necessary to protect that ethos as they see it.

If I were to brief the delegates with the task of producing a mechanism, without prescinding from the generality of EU competence or the generality of a directive in this area, that would allow Ireland to go its own way on an issue such as this, ignore a Commission initiative of the kind in question and claim we should decide on the matter because we regard it to be of national importance and socially sensitive, what would they produce? What mechanism would allow us to state we recognise the good intentions of the directive and express happiness that the Union has competence in the area, while contending that we none the less desire a mechanism that would allow us to go our own way where we see fit on certain issues that are socially sensitive?

Mr. David Byrne

I have two preliminary points before I answer the question. First, happily I am not in a legal practice any more and could not take on the brief for the Senator. Having said that, I will attempt to respond to the Senator's question. Second, it is important to state a regulation is directly applicable when passed into law at EU level and a directive becomes law in member states when transposed into national law by those member states. Once these exercises are undertaken in the Irish case, European law becomes coexistent with our national law and does not have a separate existence as EU law. Therefore, judges in Ireland have developed jurisprudence to the effect that laws that emanate from the Oireachtas and laws that originate in Brussels, in the form of directives transposed into Irish law, are all treated as Irish law.

The challenge the Senator identifies would first have to come before the courts in Ireland. Judges would have to read the two pieces of legislation the Senator is identifying, with which I am not familiar, to determine whether there is a conflict or whether there could be an interpretation consistent with the Irish intention and the intention of what emanated from Brussels. If there is divergence and a more narrowly drawn interpretation in the law emanating from Brussels than the interpretation in the law originating in Ireland, as the Senator suggests, it would be this way for a purpose. In seeking to pursue equality, there would only be exemptions that would be as narrowly drawn as possible to achieve the best possible outcome. This would ensure the exempted circumstances are dealt with fairly while at the same time not allowing for any erosion of the general principle the Union and all of us seek to pursue, namely, equality.

The Senator stated a reasoned opinion was sent by the European Commission. Reasoned opinions are sent by the Commission as a precursor to the initiation of proceedings by the Commission if there is a failure to comply. However, it does not always happen. Sometimes when a reasoned opinion is sent, it is just as described — a reasoned opinion. It is a belief rationalised on a certain basis and it is sent to the authorities in the relevant member states — in this case, Ireland — for an opinion. The response might very well be that the authorities agree with the Commission's assessment and will modify their position. Alternatively, they may state they do not agree with the reasoned opinion, in which case the Commission adjudicates on the issue. It may take the view that the Irish opinion is the correct one and back off, or it may hold to the view it originally had and initiate proceedings. It is then a matter for the courts to determine, first in Ireland and ultimately the European Court of Justice will make a decision. This will mean that the Irish authorities will have a say in the passing of that law. There is, of course, an Irish judge in the European Court of Justice who will be familiar with the ethos of Irish law.

I thank Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr for their presentations. I apologise for arriving late but have been very interested to hear their views and reflections.

For the sake of expediency I shall follow on from the last point made by Senator Mullen. The nub of some of the problems that arose in Ireland during the referendum on the Lisbon treaty is that there is a lack of certainty and a sense of fear of the unknown in respect to the powers of the European Union. People have a certain sense of Europe intervening and acting in areas that they believe should be the reserve of the Irish people and the Irish Constitution. Do both guests have views on how there might be a greater level of clarity as to the competences of the European Union?

From my perspective, the Lisbon treaty went a long way and provided a certain amount of assurance and security because it set out for the first time the competences of the European Union and the shared competences. By implication, everything else was to be the reserve of the member states. If the powers and competences of the member states were to be more prescriptive, perhaps set in stone, would this provide greater clarity regarding the European Court of Justice in terms of interpreting the treaties and the European Commission in terms of the type of legislation it initiates? During the course of the debate we heard concerns expressed in respect of abortion and other issues but there are broader concerns about moral and social issues which span everything from family law to civil union, and further. There is a fear and I wonder whether this might be one possible way of alleviating it.

A related point concerns the future of the European Union and the future of Ireland's role in Europe. In many debates in which I participated during the Lisbon treaty campaign, speakers on the "Yes" side said that the European project was like getting on a train — one does not know at what station one will alight. That is fine but in itself raises certain fears among the people here and probably also among those in other member states. There is no definitive end point and nobody understands fully what the ultimate level of integration is or should be.

I believe we should have a more honest debate about this. I am very committed to integration and I believe that the Lisbon treaty probably does not go far enough. In a European sense, I consider myself to be something of a federalist, not in the sense of wanting a US federal apparatus but in terms of seeking a greater level of federalism throughout the European Union, a greater sense of co-operation and united action on very many fronts, whether on foreign policy or security policy. In the context of the financial crisis this becomes more and more compelling. What do Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr believe to be the end point? Do they see the Lisbon treaty as the end point or do they believe there should be something more? This last point might ultimately be a constitution, which I would favour and did so with regard to the constitutional treaty that was proposed.

Mr. David Byrne

I will take the first question on the fear of the unknown. Deputy Creighton has put her finger on something that is very important. There is no doubt that there is fear, much of it genuine. However, I must enter a slightly critical note in that I was sorry to see that during the referendum campaign some fears were unfairly fanned by misinformation. People believed that things would happen that will clearly not happen. They were clearly not included in the Lisbon treaty. They were not envisaged and would not happen. Clear declarations and assurances had already been given in earlier referendum campaigns on some other issues such as abortion. Where people had expressed fear previously in campaigns, it was addressed by those proposing the treaties and the fear did not materialised. Yet, time and time again we see the same issues coming up in discussion and people remain afraid.

Deputy Creighton put her finger on a very important point, namely, why we cannot have more clarity. It is a complex issue to shape the transfer of competences from national states to the European Union. We are dealing with complex legal documents. I agree with Dr. Dorr's suggestion of an explanatory memorandum such as we have for proposed legislation here. While they are not the law they help enormously in the understanding of what is in the legal texts. More should be done in that regard. Our friends and colleagues in Europe should be more careful of the need to ensure there is full understanding of what is involved so that when they propound that this is what the treaty says, it can be made clear to the people that it is the case.

Sometimes issues were raised during the referendum campaign and I know that to answer the question one had to enter into an area of arcane legal detail that made it difficult for people to understand. That results in people losing confidence in the explanation given. Something needs to be done. The Government needs to spend more money to explain Europe so that people become more open to it and are more engaged in the entire process and not just the legal details of one text.

Dr. Noel Dorr

There is fear of the unknown about the powers of the European Union. That was demonstrated in the referendum campaign. Ireland is in a unique position in that we seem to have a referendum on every treaty and we have a corresponding need to explain to people if we ask them to vote on a treaty. That has not been handled and we have not come to grips fully with that yet. I wish we would.

I saw recently on RTE 2 the film "The Pianist", set in the Warsaw ghetto about a Jewish pianist. One scene showed Nazi troops lining up people to ship them off in wagons to concentration camps. I am sorry for reminiscing but that happened in my childhood and I am completely struck when I look at the Europe today of 27 member states that have created this structure by their own choice that is committed to democracy and human rights. I know it is inadequate in many ways, that it has faults and needs to be improved in so many ways but the contrast is so great that it seems to me we have to value it.

Members referred to greater clarity about competences. I was not altogether clear about what was said about powers set in stone. Does that refer to the powers of national states? I was not involved in this treaty although I was involved in some of the other treaties but I was pleasantly surprised to read so clearly in Article 5.2, under the principle of conferral that the Union shall act only within the limits of the competences conferred upon it by member states to attain the objectives and it must do it with subsidiarity and proportionality. In my judgment, that is clearer than it has ever been in the earlier treaties.

The point was made that we do not know which station we get off at, that there is no definite end port, whether it is Lisbon or something further. The hope was that Lisbon would settle those issues for at least ten years ahead.

We should not try to set in stone what the final outcome will be, either, at the national level. It is somewhat like Parnell's saying that no one has the right to set bounds to the march of a nation. We just do not know. That is not a plea for going a great deal further in the European Union, but I do not want to determine what a future generation might find important.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

I thank both speakers for their very interesting and thought-provoking presentations. I harbour the suspicion that this sub-committee is a piece of the choreography for a re-run of the referendum on Lisbon. I am alarmed to hear my friend, Deputy Costello, and others seek advice from the witnesses on how even a referendum might be side-stepped.

Both speakers have expressed in rather vague, though undoubtedly, sincere terms a sense that Ireland has lost influence post-Lisbon. Could they please give concrete examples because my sense, as somebody elected to one of the institutions and in very regular contact with EU officialdom, does not tally with that? When the French and the Dutch, respectively, voted down the constitution, there was no collateral damage to their influence, so please be more specific in making a claim such as that. I am glad to hear they share the view of Enterprise Ireland and others that there has been no damage to Ireland's foreign direct investment prospects arising from Lisbon. I am sure they would agree that failure to invest in infrastructure, not least education, has far more immediate and long-term implications for that project.

Do both speakers share my view that the Taoiseach and the Government making clear that Ireland is and remains at the heart of Europe was reassurance that perhaps the international and corporate community need to hear? Both speakers have claimed there is no appetite for renegotiation, yet each has openly conceded that the issue of the Commission is something that needs to be, and can be, addressed. I see a contradiction there.

On the issue of communications, I believe we are in real danger of almost deluding ourselves. I note that the issue of communications was never in play when Maastricht, an immensely more complex treaty, was ratified. Of course the result was right, so the communication issue was not so pressing. Perhaps the speakers might accept that it is not so much people fearing the unknown as people fearing and rejecting the known. Two of the core questions that arose in the course of the campaign — and I campaigned extensively on these — were around issues of workers' rights and public service provision. The people are sovereign on these matters, they have voted and the view, it seems to me, is that people will not accept a scenario where competition, the rule of the market is given primacy of position over these basic social rights. We need to be careful that we do not make the assumption that the vote the Irish people returned was a vote of ignorance. Certainly, the rationale for "No" votes was diverse, as might have happened in any other member state had it had the political confidence to put the matter of Lisbon to a referendum.

I put it to the two gentlemen that any of the annoyance, irritation and so on felt by EU leaders on the basis of Ireland's verdict is tempered very directly by the clear knowledge among them that had referendums been held in their jurisdictions these core issues would have arisen and there would have been a real chance Lisbon would have been rejected in at least some member states. If our influence in Europe is to mean anything, it needs to be influence that is not simply exercised by political establishments, elites or whatever. The influence needs to be derived from and exercised by the people.

Dr. Noel Dorr

I share the view that there is a particular need for the European Union to explain itself more closely to people. If referenda were held in other member states, some countries would have considerable difficulty in having them passed.

Someone described the start of the European Union as a conspiracy of elites. This description was intended as a positive idea. We have, however, moved from that position as Europe can no longer be a conspiracy of elites but must be explained and explicable to people. It has not succeeded very well in this respect. As I noted in my opening statement, there is also a problem at the wider European level.

Ms McDonald asked for concrete examples of Ireland's loss of influence. As I indicated, I am retired and no longer involved in the game. All I can do is look at my experience when I was involved in it. My participation dates back to the 1960s when I was a low level official in Brussels during the original negotiations when there were a great many comings and goings. I remember a great deal about how things were and I know that influence was always important. The way we succeeded and presented ourselves resulted in the influence we enjoyed in Brussels. All I can say, judging from a distance, is that if influence is important and Ireland is now regarded as the very awkward member state, we will have lost some of our influence, which is a pity. The argument that we were concerned about power was misplaced because Ireland was gaining influence.

I do not assume that the vote against the Lisbon treaty was one of ignorance. While some ignorance was involved, there were also genuine objections to the treaty, some of which I can accept and understand. On balance, Lisbon was a good treaty. To paraphrase Mr. Eamon Dunphy, it was a good treaty, not a great treaty.

I will not comment on the issue of workers' rights or public service powers but perhaps Mr. Byrne will do so. On communications, perhaps it was not a major issue at the time of the Maastricht treaty. Given that I was a civil servant who was involved in the process at the time, perhaps I should not talk about the issue. I had some role in the White Paper on the Amsterdam treaty. In writing the treaty we were at great pains to make it explicable and understandable and to explain the current position, the reason changes should be made and what was being done in the treaty. The White Paper was well received at the time. I am sure this has also been the case in the intervening period. It is very difficult to get the message across to people.

Ireland must hold a referendum every time a treaty is signed, which means we have a particular duty to explain Europe better. European integration is a worthy project. I keep returning to my memories of childhood and looking at Europe today. I am, therefore, of the strong view that we have to explain the European project better.

Mr. David Byrne

I was working in the Commission in Brussels after the first Nice treaty referendum was held. I have no doubt there was a sense of dismay as a consequence of the Irish vote. Whether we lost influence at that time is difficult to say because people are polite and will not express dismay to one's face. However, I certainly picked up and was aware of a sense of dismay at the time.

I draw attention to an issue I briefly referred to earlier, namely, the debate that unfolded after the Italian Presidency failed to secure agreement on the proposed constitution for Europe at the end of 2003. The question which then arose was whether there should be a period of reflection or whether Ireland should assume the task of making progress on the issue. While it was never expressed openly, there was a belief that Ireland, as a small member state with a small civil service, would not be able to bring the ball to the line. When it was suggested that a period of reflection should ensue, the subtext was that the Dutch Presidency which followed the Irish Presidency would be better able to deal with the issue. It came as a considerable surprise to many of those who adopted this view that Ireland was successful in adopting the constitution.

As Mr. Dorr and I both noted, the high point of Ireland's membership of the European Union was 1 May 2004 when the Irish Presidency negotiated the constitution, found a new President for the Commission and finally delivered on enlargement. However, I have no doubt that Ireland's influence had dipped prior to our Presidency as a result of the first vote on the Nice treaty, although our standing was enhanced when we rectified that decision.

I believe we have lost standing in Europe as a result of our vote, principally because people do not understand why a country like Ireland, which has expressed itself to be pro Europe, has voted "No" for reasons that do not appear to be either associated with the Lisbon treaty, have been already dealt with, or, more particularly, are not issues that are of national interest to Ireland specifically, rather than Europe as a whole. We have ended up in a situation where people in Europe are saying the Irish, this population of 1%, have voted "No" and by this will, in effect, stall the progress of Europe in areas where they want progress. I predict that by the end of this year, 26 member states will have ratified the Lisbon treaty. We will then have some serious thinking to do about what we will do. We will then be alone.

Each speaker has the right to put one further question.

I would like to pick up on a question I asked Mr. Byrne previously on the role of national parliaments. We are anxious as parliamentarians to enhance the role of the national parliament. Other than at scrutiny level, can we have a greater input into something that has already been drafted by the Commission? Can we have an input when the work programme is being put together? As we know, those who make the original decisions are those in the position of power. How is the work programme drawn up? Who makes the original input and what level of pre-consultation takes place before it is drawn up?

With regard to the fact that the Lisbon treaty would create a new legal entity for the European Union, what is Mr. Byrne's legal opinion on that? Does that mean we would have constitutional problems? The Charter of Fundamental Rights is something that is very good for workers' rights. We were told yesterday that the Laval case could not have happened in Ireland, because it resulted from the limited way in which Sweden transposed the workers' directive. Does the Commission not check legislation that is being put through by member states to ensure it conforms to the basic tenets of directives?

I would like to ask about the final destination of Europe and the future of the Union expert group that has been established by the European Union. Pat Cox was mentioned initially as someone who might chair that group. Do either Mr. Byrne or Dr. Dorr think Ireland's rejection of the Lisbon treaty was related to the fact he was not appointed as a member of that group? How adequate is the establishment of that group as a response to the issue of the final destination of Europe or to the matter of bringing greater clarity to the issue? Is the group inclusive enough and should every member state be represented on it?

The issue of abortion was not one I raised in the course of the campaign, but I am not sure I would agree the issue is as clear cut as stated. There might be scope for our getting a legal opinion on the issue. In the Polish context, the Tysiac case in the European Court of Human Rights, ECHR, looked at where abortion was legal and at what that court thought the Polish Government should do. It is arguable that if the European Court of Justice was at any point in the future to take that line of reasoning — there is often more than a nod to the ECHR's reasoning — it might be the case that notwithstanding the protocol, there could be interference, given there is not complete protection for the unborn in Article 40.3.3o. This is a matter we need to consider further as it is not completely clear cut.

On a more political point, it is all very well to say individuals made unfounded arguments they should not have made but it must be realised that people's confidence is sapped. This is a political process and not just a matter of legal nicety. For example, at the UN summit on children in 2002, the European Union, including Ireland, was fighting for what were called reproductive health services for adolescents even after a Canadian delegate admitted such services included abortion. It is important to grasp just how much this saps the confidence of the ordinary voter. It suggests a drift in the European Union and that Ireland seems to be going along with it. This is much more important than any legal analysis when people go to vote. This must be addressed.

I agreed with Dr. Dorr's excellent summary of existing circumstances. It is ultimately the European Court of Justice that would decide in the event of a conflict between the provisions of a directive and the Irish implementation thereof. However, given that the Irish Government might be in a minority voting on what a directive should require and that the majority might have a different vision of what equality might mean in certain circumstances, could Dr. Dorr come up with a mechanism, if asked, that would return the final say on such matters to Ireland, either by way of an amendment to our Constitution or by way of a protocol to the Lisbon treaty? Is this possible without denying that it is, in general, an area of EU competence?

Dr. Noel Dorr

I did not answer a question by Deputy Costello on the referral of a treaty to the Supreme Court by the President. I was suggesting that, at some time in the future, we might add to the Constitution a power for the President to make such a referral, just as she can now refer a Bill to the Supreme Court. I appreciate this power does not exist at present.

The point has been made that the Irish want to be at the heart of Europe. I agree but the paradox and conflict at present are associated with the fact that the Lisbon treaty referendum seems to have moved us from the heart of Europe. It is a matter of how one reconciles the two perspectives.

Deputy Costello stated the Union would become a legal entity if the Lisbon treaty were ratified. We should remember that the European Communities already have international legal personality. What is in question is whether the Union as such should have it. Some European lawyers argue it already has de facto legal personality in that everybody accepts this. If I am not mistaken, the two remaining European Communities already have international legal personality.

Globalisation and tides washing across internationally are such that we have integration anyway. It is a question of ascertaining the best position for a small country. To me, it is to be in a carefully judged structure that we have helped to negotiate. The structure has considerable power globally because of its economic power but it uses only soft power. It is attractive rather than trying to be a militarily dominant power. This seems quite striking. Structure is always important for small countries in international life and the big countries can get by without it.

The European Union has never been a hostile environment for us. On the contrary, it has been a very positive one in which we have had great influence and have been highly regarded. It is a fallacy to talk of large and small as that is not how it works when there is a division. Our interests may lie with France on agriculture and with a small country on another matter. We place too much emphasis on the large-small debate.

My overall theme is that, over the past 50 years in Europe, we have organically created something novel. I hope it works. It has inadequacies but we can correct them. We are part of the Union and I am proud of the part we played in building it. Each generation must decide how far to take it. What we have done so far is carefully judged. For all the Union's inadequacies, it is to Ireland's benefit. I would like to see us genuinely at the heart of Europe and that is what people seem to want. Even opponents of the Lisbon treaty want us to be at the heart of Europe. We are shifting ourselves imperceptibly from the heart of Europe the more we create difficulties. Although we are entitled to do so, we cannot sit on our hands and fail to respect the degree of partnership we have already established and to recognise the benefits we have already obtained, although I do not want to overemphasise this point. The partnership we are in requires us to try to work together and to compromise. That is what we have benefited from in the past and I would like to see us continue to do that in the future. However, we must communicate better with people on what is being done.

Mr. David Byrne

The Deputy is perfectly right. I did not respond to his question in the way he put it and I apologise for that. I shall do so now if I can. He asked about the role of the national parliaments in stakeholder consultation at the time when the programme is being drawn up for a period ahead. I am not aware of any mechanism whereby the Commission engages directly with a parliament of a member state in drawing up a programme for future legislation. I may be wrong about this because I do not remember engaging in it. At the commencement of every Presidency each Commissioner meets his or her opposite number, the relevant Minister in his or her own member state, and they have a discussion about which objectives are desirable to pursue within the term of that Presidency. To that extent there is an engagement between the Commission and the Council or the governments of the member states. In so far as the governments are representative of the parliamentary framework there is an involvement.

Up to now the way parliaments have been involved is that a parliamentary committee here or in other member states engages with its own Ministers before they attend the relevant Councils to determine what line they will take in any piece of legislation. Some countries take this very strictly. In Denmark, for instance, the Minister is given riding instructions by the relevant committee and must stay within the confines of those instructions. Most other member states are more flexible and the Minister will take into account the views expressed by the parliamentary sub-committee. That is how it is done.

In the Lisbon treaty it is intended to have greater connection and association between the European Parliament and the national parliaments rather than between the parliaments and the Commission. However, even at this stage the Commission is sending details of all legislation in the pipeline to the member states. Within the framework of the Lisbon treaty, given that there is now to be the so-called watchdog provision, the European Commission will be required to keep national parliaments apprised of what is on the horizon. This, as I understand it, will be done with all legislation.

I would like clarification on that point. Is there anything to prevent the Commission writing to national parliaments before it begins to compile its work programme and asking them if there is something they feel should be put into this annual——

Mr. David Byrne

Does the Deputy mean at the commencement of a Commission's five-year life or at the beginning of a Presidency?

Let us say both. There is an annual work programme. I do not know what kind of brainstorming sessions or committee get-togethers there are before that is put together. Is there any reason a letter should not be sent to the national parliaments——

Mr. David Byrne

I do not see why not.

It could be done under the present dispensation. There is no need for anything——

Mr. David Byrne

Exactly. As far as I know there has been a development in that direction. From what I have been reading recently this is being undertaken.

I ask the speakers to conclude that point.

Mr. David Byrne

My belief is that if the European Union did not exist it would be necessary to invent it. We now find that given the way the world is globalised, Ireland must be involved in a regional structural and political entity that gives us influence and a voice in the world. We have seen that during the events of the past three or four months on the world stage Ireland has effectively had a say through its engagement with the European Union. If we were not involved in that, or not involved in the way it has been structured, we would have had no say in these matters. The power that a smaller member state has by way of its involvement in a political entity the size of the European Union is derived from the influence it has at the table.

My original question was whether it is possible to devise a mechanism that would return the final say to Ireland in areas of possible conflict such as in the interpretation of a directive, rather than the final say being——

Mr. David Byrne

I think that is unlikely. I cannot see how a structure could be arranged in such a way that an individual member state would be given the power to determine the interpretation of European law. That would seem to run counter to the integration process. I imagine other member states and the European Commission would have concerns about that.

Is it politically unlikely rather than legally unlikely?

Mr. David Byrne

I think the European Parliament would also have concerns about that. I cannot see how one would have a reversion to an individual member state so that it, solely, would have the power to determine the interpretation of European law. I cannot see how that would happen.

I wish to make one further point that I forgot to make earlier. In all the time that I was working in Brussels, whenever an issue arose that was clearly of national importance to a member state, others recognised that and accommodated to it. There was a flexibility in the system such that people backed away. People were never forced into a situation where ministers or members of parliament had to go back home and say "I am afraid we have lost this. This is an issue of huge national importance but they are making us do it." In my experience that has never happened to Ireland or to any other member state. I accept individual member states have cribs here and there over various things that happened. Germany was not happy about the Volkswagen debate for instance but it has accommodated to it and brought forward other legislation and it now deals with it. There are many other instances relating to other member states. An accommodation is always found. When people talk about the exercise of the veto, there is never any need for it because the fact is that when an individual member state makes it clear to other colleagues and other decision makers that it is a route it cannot go down, nobody is forced to do so.

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP

Can I interrupt please? I apologise for being late. A colleague put it very well recently when he said that in the adversarial system we get up every day with the intention of trying to find out how we can wrong-foot the government. The difference is that in Europe we get up every day with the intention of trying to find out how we can accommodate each other. I wanted to put that point on the record.

Mr. David Byrne

I am very happy that a distinguished member of another European Union institution — the European Parliament — agrees with my memory of working in the European Commission.

We must finish on that note.

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP

The European Parliament has the last word after all.

Mr. David Byrne

The interpretation was the Commission's.

I am sorry to have cut across both of our guests at different stages but we are sitting all day and we must ensure we reach certain deadlines or we will be here until tomorrow trying to finish today's work. I thank both Mr. Byrne and Dr. Dorr for attending and for their testimonies, which have been very helpful to our work.

Dr. Noel Dorr

I thank the Chairman and the sub-committee. I do not know whether the sub-committee wants copies of my opening statement but I have some if they are required.

Yes, please. That would be very helpful.

Mr. David Byrne

I add my voice of thanks to Dr. Dorr's. I compliment the sub-committee on the important work it is undertaking. It is a very important task and I look forward to reading the sub-committee's report in due course.

I thank Mr. Byrne. It would be helpful to have a copy of his opening statement also.

The sub-committee went into private session at 11.44 a.m. and suspended at 12 p.m. until 2.30 p.m.

I welcome our guest, Mr. John Bruton, head of delegation of the European Commission to the United States. Mr. Bruton has been invited here to follow up on one of our work modules. As he will be aware, the sub-committee was established to consider Ireland's future in the European Union. We have divided our work into four modules, one of which focuses on what will be the impact of the Irish decision on the Lisbon treaty referendum on our standing internationally and in the European Union. I am pleased to welcome Mr. Bruton and thank him for agreeing to meet members of the sub-committee at short notice.

Mr. Bruton may speak for ten minutes, after which the lead speaker of each group will have ten minutes to raise questions. Thereafter, the discussion will be open to the floor. Although Mr. Bruton will be familiar with procedure, I must remind him that while members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. John Bruton

I do not propose to read the detailed statement I circulated to members as it would take me 22 minutes to do so. The reaction in the United States where I now live to the rejection of the Lisbon treaty was one of complete bafflement. Americans could not understand how Ireland, which was portrayed to them as Europe's number one success story, as was the case, would not once but twice reject a European treaty to which the Irish Government had agreed. While I was able to explain that Ireland remains strongly pro-European, the Lisbon treaty was far from readable and Ireland was perfectly entitled to exercise this option. I do not need to tell politicians that when one is explaining, one is losing.

Will the decision affect American investment in Ireland? Many Americans remember the IDA poster in Dublin Airport emblazoned with the slogan "The Young Europeans" and showing a number of young Irish people. It was used as an argument for investing in Ireland as a gateway to Europe. While it is impossible to tell what decisions will be made in future, psychological factors play an important role in decision making and a perception that a country is moving away from the heart of Europe could have a psychological impact. More concretely, companies are increasingly concerned by what may be described as regulatory risks to their investment. These include risks in regard to patent law, copyright, accounting standards and matters of a similar nature. Such investors want to be satisfied that the country in which they are investing has a government that is not only sympathetic in domestic law to their regulatory concerns but also has the clout to look after their regulatory interests on the wider stage, for example, in Europe.

Before the rejection of the Lisbon treaty, Ireland was perceived as a country which had clout in Brussels and its officials and Ministers were considered to have the smarts necessary to get the job done. That perception has been diminished. The reality is that it is hard for a country to lead if it has a problem. If one is perceived as contributing to the European Union's success, one will have more influence. However, if one is perceived to be holding back the rest of the Union from doing things it wants to do, one will have less influence. That is a simple demonstration of human psychology.

One must also bear in mind the impact Ireland's decision will have on opinion in Europe with regard to what it wanted to achieve through the Lisbon treaty that it has now been prevented from achieving by our decision. I have identified nine particular changes others in Europe would have wanted that our decision will now impede. First is the strengthening of the Community method. The Community method is a method of making legislation whereby the European Commission on its own draws up a proposal that represents the interests, fairly, of all the member states. That then goes through a process of approval in the Council and the democratically-elected Parliament.

The alternative to that is intergovernmental decision making, where a few big countries get together. We have seen some of this in the wake of the rejection of the Lisbon treaty. We have seen a few big countries get together in a small meeting, decide what they want to do and then, more or less tell the Commission what it must produce. The Lisbon treaty, if it had gone into effect, would have increased and strengthened the Community method to the advantage of all countries, particularly smaller countries. Its rejection will increase and strengthen the intergovernmental method — the big countries getting together and smaller countries having to more or less accept what they decide.

Second, other member states wanted to see stronger powers on cross-border crime. When we think about it, virtually every crime committed in any constituency here has an international dimension. It may be committed to fuel a drug habit, the drugs having come in from another country, a weapon used may have come from another country or the proceeds of the crime may be moved to another country. The Lisbon treaty would have strengthened the powers of the European Union and police authorities working across borders to stamp out crime. In the absence of the Lisbon treaty, we have a situation where borders within Europe are a barrier to the police and prosecutors, but not to criminals. That must change.

The third area concerns social issues. Article 17 of the treaty would have strengthened the independence of churches. The articles in the charter would have made it clear that human life was sacred, that human dignity must be preserved and that marriage law was a matter for national legislation. Those protections were important to those who want to preserve traditional values in Europe. They were covered in the Lisbon treaty, but have now been stopped.

The fourth area relates to energy policy. Article 194 would have increased energy security for all member states. Europeans do not want a situation in which one country, because it is dependent on another for energy supply, can be politically blackmailed. Nor do they want a situation where a country which is an island, with few energy resources of its own, could be blackmailed by any supplier upon which it is dependent. Article 194 would have helped in that regard.

Fifth, the Lisbon treaty would have helped us with regard to cross-border health threats. I do not need to tell members of this sub-committee about the serious possibility of a global flu pandemic. Articles in the Lisbon treaty would have given the Union legal competence to deal with that matter, particularly with regard to the pooling and sharing of vaccines and, if necessary, restrictions on free movement in order to ensure disease did not spread.

Sixth, other member states looked forward to Article 222 of the treaty, which would have introduced a principle of solidarity between member states in the event of a terrorist attack or a man-made disaster. There would be a requirement to help one another.

Seventh, the Lisbon treaty would have strengthened the euro. I am long enough in public life to remember 1993, when we were not part of the eurozone, when interest rates shot up overnight to 25% and 30% because we were trying to defend our currency. Ireland may have problems currently, but it has not got the problems Iceland has, because we are part of the eurozone, but it is not. However, the euro will only survive as a currency if there are internal disciplines on fiscal policy that work. The Lisbon treaty would have strengthened the euro but that is now put in suspense, unfortunately.

Eighth, the sub-committee should be well aware of the fact that other Europeans were looking forward to greater democratisation of the European Union as a result of the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. The European Parliament, the only directly-elected multinational parliament in the world, was to have increased powers. This sub-committee and similar committees in other jurisdictions were to be given the opportunity of pre-vetting EU legislation as to proportionality and subsidiarity.

There was much complaint in the referendum debate about some rules on turf cutting, probably due to a silly regulation. Had the Lisbon treaty been in effect, this sub-committee would have seen that proposal before it even went to the European Parliament or the Council and it might have stated it did not need to extend so far. Those who did not like and do not like silly rules being made in Brussels should have voted for the Lisbon treaty because it would have introduced a pre-vetting mechanism that would eliminate them.

Ninth, people are concerned that further enlargement of the European Union, which could do much to stabilise the Balkans, is not now going ahead. This is not because of a legal requirement, because one can enlarge underneath, but a number of countries have decided further enlargement will not be possible without the Lisbon treaty. They may be wrong but it is their right to assume this. Our decision, indirectly at least, is denying the prospect of EU membership to a number of troubled countries in the Balkans.

I hope the sub-committee will consider recommending a clarificatory amendment to the European Communities Act 1972 to state exactly when an EU treaty will require a referendum in Ireland and when it will not. For reasons that were never explained, a referendum was deemed not to be required for the enlargement of the European Union from nine member states to 27, although that dramatically changed the scope of the European Union, whereas for even relatively minor changes in the competences or decision-making process of the Union, a referendum has been deemed necessary in every case since the Crotty decision. To be fair to everybody, including the negotiators of future treaties in all other member states, the Oireachtas should pass legislation clarifying when a referendum is necessary and have proposals in this regard referred under Article 26 of the Constitution to the Supreme Court.

My last point concerns opt-outs. I draw attention to the text of the decision of the Danish Institute for International Studies which states the Danish opt-out from defence measures reduced Denmark's freedom. If one opts in to EU security and defence initiatives, one has a say over what is done, and a veto. If one opts out, one has no say or veto but may still be affected by what is done. The best populist argument for the Lisbon treaty, that is, that it would have helped us to fight organised crime, was not made in this country because the Government decided, with UK Government, to opt out of a provision for dealing with cross-border crime. It is very hard to argue in favour of a measure one has opted out of.

The next speakers, Deputies Costello, Ó Snodaigh, Timmins, Creighton and Flynn, will be called in the following party order: Labour Party, Sinn Féin and the Green bloc. Each speaker will have ten minutes and I shall announce when four minutes have elapsed.

I thank Mr. Bruton for presenting a valuable paper to the sub-committee.

My first question relates to Mr. Bruton's opening remarks in which he described complete bafflement in the United States with regard to our rejection of the Lisbon treaty. What form does that bafflement take among the people he meets? In his work as head of the Commission delegation I presume he meets a wide range of political and business people as well as ordinary citizens. What has he done to reassure them that Ireland still wants to be at the heart of Europe despite the rejection of the Lisbon treaty?

Mr. Bruton made a proposal at the end of his paper. He felt the European Communities Act 1972 should be amended to enable the Government or the President to refer the treaty to the Supreme Court for adjudication as to its constitutionality and he said it might be an interesting and useful approach to dealing with the matter so that some treaties might not be unconstitutional. How does that tally with the present situation? The Government referred the Lisbon treaty to the Attorney General who pronounced that there were elements in the treaty that offended our Constitution and that therefore it had to be put to a referendum. Do we not have effectively the same position in this case? What more might the Supreme Court add to the considered opinion of the Government's chief legal adviser?

I agree with much of what Mr. Bruton said about the Lisbon treaty containing many good elements that should be enacted and I would have loved to see them there. He did not mention the Charter of Fundamental Rights and perhaps he might give us his opinion on that.

I have a question concerning opting in and opting out. Mr. Bruton clearly has a strong feeling that the opt-out clause is not a satisfactory way to move forward. Nevertheless, if there is to be some movement forward, some extra measures must be put in place. Has he considered there to be any opt-ins, opt-outs or declarations that might be of use in this regard?

Mr. John Bruton

The bafflement was shared across the political spectrum in the United States. I met many people in the Republican administration who were open-mouthed about this decision and could not understand it. There was none of what some in continental Europe suspect concerning people on the centre-right in American politics rejoicing at this decision. I never came across that anywhere. It may exist in some of the outer reaches of the Heritage Foundation or something like that. However, it is not a common viewpoint among Republicans and certainly not among Democrats that it was a good day's work for the world that the Lisbon treaty was rejected or that the European Union was thereby reduced in influence. The United States knows, increasingly, that as its relative size in the world reduces and that of other blocs increases, it will need a strong Europe and must work with it if it is to achieve anything. Therefore, anything that is seen as weakening the European Union is not welcomed. That is a rational calculation for Americans to make. As far as I am concerned, I gave a lengthy speech to the European Institute in Washington explaining my understanding of what happened. It is always best in a diplomatic situation to face the music, however embarrassing or difficult it may be, and give one's explanations. I did that and I would be happy to supply a copy of what I said on that occasion to the sub-committee if that is of any use.

As to the proposal I made about legislation, what I have in mind is that the Dáil and the Seanad would draw up legislation that would go in some detail into the different sorts of things that might be in a European treaty and would say, in their opinion if there is something that changes this, that should require a referendum, on the other hand if there is something on this, it ought not require a referendum. In that way the Oireachtas would attempt to fill the gaps in the Crotty judgment and clarify those matters. That legislation having been passed by the Oireachtas could, with the agreement of the President, be referred under Article 26 to see whether it had got it right, if one likes, in divining the constitutional restrictions that require referenda.

It is an attempt to produce something that other countries can read. It is not very easy to ask other countries coming into the negotiation of a future treaty to read the Crotty judgment, and say that will tell them everything. It will not. It tells one very little in fact. My argument is that what we need is for the Oireachtas to take on the responsibility, as a member of the European Union, to make it easy for everybody, including Irish negotiators, so that people would know what things would require a referendum.

I did mention the Charter of Fundamental Rights in my address. It is very important. I singled out, however, in particular the provisions in regard to the right to life and human dignity, which are very important. I say to those who are pro-life in this country that rather than taking a defensive approach they should try to promote their pro-life values through the charter throughout Europe. An unborn life saved in Britain or France is just as valuable in the eyes of God as an unborn life saved in Ireland. Those who believe that should be trying to use Europe as a means of promoting what they believe in rather than putting up walls.

On the last question, I do not favour opt-outs at all because they reduce one's influence but still leave one having to pick up the dirty washing afterwards. Opt-ins give one some say and that is why I favour them. Some say that people here would not accept declarations because they are not legally binding. On the other hand people say also that many people did not read the treaty or did not understand it. If declarations simplify and make it easier for them to understand the treaties perhaps they could be good. I do not know. That is a matter for the sub-committee to decide.

Mr. Bruton presented us with the long version of the speech, which I have looked at. He has elaborated on some of the points in his contribution. In it he made clear his absolute support for the Lisbon treaty that was rejected. He made a set of claims I believe he cannot substantiate. I will come to some of them later.

As a senior European Union official, does he not think that somewhere in his speech he should have set out the need for the Irish vote to be respected, and the need to address the political concerns raised in Ireland? In particular, similar to other witnesses who appeared before the sub-committee, Mr. Bruton claimed that Ireland has lost influence in Europe since rejecting the Lisbon treaty. Others who made that claim asserted it without any concrete example or evidence of our loss of influence other than chats with people and the like. Where is the evidence that Ireland's influence has diminished? Can Mr. Bruton give concrete examples? It is not good enough to talk about people being psychologically affected. On the one hand, Mr. Bruton was saying that somebody who did not agree with Ireland rejecting the Lisbon treaty was being slightly hostile, distant and upset, and therefore less likely to deal with us. On the other hand, such persons might be more inclined to accommodate us, to try and win us over. I do not want the psychological argument, but concrete examples as to how Ireland's influence has been diminished, if at all.

Mr. Bruton's claim that the stability of the euro is undermined by Ireland's rejection of the Lisbon treaty is bizarre. Again, I want him to substantiate the claim that the Lisbon rejection has undermined the stability of the euro. Other witnesses to this sub-committee such as Enterprise Ireland, the IDA and Microsoft Ireland have stated explicitly that there is no evidence of damage to inward investment to Ireland since the rejection of the Lisbon treaty. Are they wrong? Rather than increasing the fears about Ireland's engagement with the EU, would it not be better for Mr. Bruton and the Irish Government, to assert categorically that Ireland is, and will remain, at the heart of Europe?

My final point is that Mr. Bruton spoke of the need for economic and fiscal conformity in the EU. What is his position on EU tax harmonisation? Is it the same as his Fine Gael colleagues who supported this concept in the European Parliament?

Mr. John Bruton

I shall deal with the last question first. I was a member of the convention that drafted the constitution. I was on the presidium. I fought exceptionally hard and successfully for two things, from the very beginning to the very end in the convention. One was to ensure absolute equality between member states in regard to seats on the Commission. We won that, although there was serious concern in some of the bigger countries. The other issue was to guarantee that unanimity would remain the rule in regard to tax policy — and we won that too. That is, and remains the case, and I am unashamed in taking some of the credit for the fact that it is so.

I can give the Deputy examples in so far as Ireland's influence is concerned. Recently a committee was set up to examine the future of the European Union after Lisbon. Its members included a number of leaders and it was chaired by the former socialist Prime Minister of Spain, Filipe Gonzalez. No Irish person was included on that committee.

More recently, a committee has been established to examine the very topical matter of cross-border banking supervision in the European Union. No Irish person has been included in that committee either. That is real loss of influence, and I believe it is directly related to the decision the Irish people took.

However, as far as investment is concerned, I know the Deputy and questioners from his party have constantly attended this sub-committee looking for examples. There will only be examples of a loss of investment as a result of this decision when it is too late, when a project has already been lost. I believe judgments going forward into the future must be made before there are examples, on the basis of an assessment of the way one might reach if something one really wanted was thrown back in one's face by another country. It might be useful to attempt to see into the minds of the Germans or French who have invested, in some cases, years of their lives into preparing these proposals, to find they have got them through in every other country except one. Maybe that leaves them totally cold and unaffected when it happens, but if it does, then they are very different to most of the people in this room. If this had happened to us and we were in their position, we would be annoyed — I will not use more colourful language. That is common sense.

It goes without saying that the Irish vote should be respected. One does not need to keep demanding respect. As a member of the European Union, we are entitled to respect for our decision. The fact that this sub-committee is having this deliberation is a sign that those who established it are showing respect for the Irish people's decision.

I welcome Mr. Bruton and apologise for arriving during his presentation. Having had an opportunity to briefly read the paper he circulated, I have a number of questions. I do not agree with his criticism of the Government's decision to opt out of the justice and home affairs provisions of the Lisbon treaty. This was sensible and precautionary measure which was not designed to apply for the long term. The Government agreed to review the position after three years and will decide to opt in or out on a case-by-case basis. In doing so, it secured maximum flexibility for itself. Ireland and Britain have a common law tradition and for this reason we were not sure what impact moving to common decisions in the area of justice and home affairs would have on this tradition.

If the Oireachtas were to accept Mr. Bruton's proposal to amend the European Communities Act 1972 and clarified the circumstances under which it would be necessary to put a treaty to the people by referendum, what impact would such a decision have on the perception of citizens? To date, most major treaties have been ratified by means of popular referendum. What would be the impact of changing the position, particularly given the poor level of citizen engagement? During referendum campaigns people are educated about Europe and its institutions. Would such a decision give rise to a danger that the democratic deficit would widen further?

Mr. John Bruton

The decision of the Irish and British Governments to opt out of the justice and home affairs provisions of the Lisbon treaty was legally and politically mistaken. It was legally mistaken in the sense that important measures such as the pursuit of evidence in other jurisdictions have been lost, not only for the countries which are opting out but for all member states. We are in the doubly difficult position in that we are preventing other countries from advancing on matters in which we are not willing to participate. That is the legal problem.

The political problem is that regardless of the reasons given for opting out of the cross-border crime provisions, the Government decision meant it surrendered the best political argument it could have used to support the Lisbon treaty during the campaign. People are concerned about crime. Deputy Flynn's constituents and people all over Ireland are well aware of crimes fuelled by drugs. To be able to say that the Lisbon treaty would have helped in the battle against crime and the importation of drugs and weapons would have been a tremendous argument in the referendum campaign. By opting out, the Government surrendered this argument, which was a mistake.

I am a barrister by qualification and I do not buy this stuff about common law. There is a certain bewigged superciliousness in the legal profession in England and Ireland — Scotland's legal system is similar to the systems in place in continental Europe — about the civil law which is entirely misplaced. There is due process and protection for the accused in civil law systems. Legal costs are much less in civil law systems than in the famed common law system. It is surprising that a country that worked so hard to separate itself from England should now become so emotionally attached to the common law system that it feels it must follow Britain. Interestingly, Britain opted out of these provisions for Scotland as well, without consulting it.

I must hand over to Deputies Timmins and Creighton. I realise there is an outstanding question, but we can get back to it.

I welcome ambassador Bruton. He offers a unique insight, as a former Taoiseach, a member of the presidium that drew up the original constitution, European ambassador to the United States, and, testament to his durability, a member of the Oireachtas before we joined the EEC. That may be difficult to comprehend from the position we are in today, but fair play to him.

Mr. John Bruton

I campaigned for it.

I have a question with regard to opting out on justice and home affairs, an issue we have continually raised. Strangely, during the course of the campaign, the Government articulated this in its literature as a plus or reason to vote for the Lisbon treaty. Notwithstanding Ireland opted out, the literature mentioned the benefit of signing up to the Lisbon treaty to be able to combat crime. This was somewhat disingenuous.

Something that arises constantly — Deputy Ó Snodaigh raised this earlier — is the idea that we need some tangible evidence of our difficulty. Many people have come to this sub-committee and outlined the fact that we are in difficulty. When I go home, I do not need my wife to throw an egg at me to know I am out of favour. This is something I can detect. I believe that in time we will see the difficulties arising from our vote. Last week, Catherine Day, the Secretary General of the Commission, mentioned the subtle difficulties Irish representatives have at Commission level, for example, they are reluctant to push issues they would have pushed in the past, due to what they feel is their dwindling lack of influence.

I have some questions for Mr. Bruton. He mentioned the USA was perplexed by our decision. How does it feel six months on? Does it see any way we can move forward or has its view changed? Is it still perplexed? He mentioned also that the Community method might be replaced by the intergovernmental method. If Ireland does not ratify the Lisbon treaty, what is the future for us and the Union? He mentioned how important the treaty is with regard to energy supply. What are Mr. Bruton's views in this regard? How do the concerns with respect to energy supply rate in the United States relative to Europe?

I found the reference to the solidarity clause interesting because few people mention it. I would see us as being one of the main beneficiaries of the solidarity clause. We were concerned about what we might have to do for others, but there is little we could do for them. We could only have benefited from that clause. When Mr. Bruton was Taoiseach, did he feel vulnerable because, in theory, we did not have anyone to call on in difficulty? When in Government, did he have concerns or feel it might be necessary to bring in legislation to make referendums unnecessary so that he would not have to face the issue of referring issues to the courts or is this something that has evolved in recent times as a result of our difficulties?

In his position as ambassador, does Mr. Bruton feel more comfortable when a larger nation, like France, heads the Presidency as opposed to a smaller nation like Ireland? Does that make a difference to his position?

I welcome ambassador Bruton. I have just a few questions. Mr. Bruton spoke about the Community method and the European Commission. This is important and is the reason I had no concern about the loss of an Irish Commissioner. I believe all Commissioners are there to represent the interests of the Union, as they sign a pledge to do. Therefore, I have been interested and surprised by the number of speakers we have had before the sub-committee who have expressed the desire to see a Commissioner for every member state. Does Mr. Bruton have a view on that? Does he believe this is very important or is he satisfied with the rotation method proposed in the Lisbon treaty? We all know that under the terms of the Nice treaty, we will suffer a loss in any case, despite what was put forward disingenuously during the Lisbon treaty referendum campaign by those on the "No" side.

On the loss of influence, does Mr. Bruton agree it demonstrates considerable naivety to believe goodwill does not matter at EU level? This is essentially the view of Deputy Ó Snodaigh and his colleagues. We failed to have Mr. Pat Cox, a former President of the European Parliament and a very eminent figure within the European Union, appointed to the group established in recent weeks to discuss the future of the Union. This clearly reduces the influence of Ireland within the Union. Does Mr. Bruton agree?

On social issues, I agree we failed to communicate the safeguards proposed in the Lisbon treaty, particularly the charter and the commitment to the right to life. In Mr. Bruton's view, are there further ways in which people with concerns about social and moral issues, in so far as they bring them to bear on our distinctive constitutional values, can have these concerns met, particularly in respect of the European Court of Justice? We are to have a module on this issue later this afternoon. There is a fear that the European Court of Justice will have latitude to make decisions that contravene our constitutional values. Will Mr. Bruton discuss this issue?

What are Mr. Bruton's views on the contention, aired during the referendum campaign, that workers' rights would be undermined by the Lisbon treaty? This contention contributed greatly to an element of racism and antipathy towards foreign nationals working in Ireland. It was propounded by Sinn Féin, among others, during the campaign.

Mr. John Bruton

To answer Deputy Timmins's question on how Americans feel six months on, I do not have to tell him that attention spans are very short in the United States. They have moved on to other subjects on which I do not have to elaborate unduly.

I have been asked what will happen if Ireland does not ratify the Lisbon treaty. Much depends on the circumstances of how this issue is handled. If Ireland demonstrates best endeavours to ratify it and fails honourably in that endeavour — we have an obligation to use best endeavours under international law — I do not see why anything negative should happen in terms of our rights under the Nice treaty which would continue to be the governing treaty. However, all the intangible effects pertaining to our influence would still stand. There is nothing one can do about these.

It is very important that people in continental Europe realise we were at all times entitled to make our decision. It may have been an incorrect one but we had a right to make it. It is important that nothing be done in EU practice that would ever suggest countries do not have a right not to ratify a particular treaty, regardless of the reasonableness of the grounds for so doing. In dealing with this matter it is very important that this point be made.

As far as the United States is concerned, energy independence is a crucial issue in the current presidential campaign. The United States aspires to be independent in that respect. Senator Obama, for example, supports clean coal which is probably one of the most misnamed technologies one could imagine. It is not clean. The sulphur is removed but not the carbon dioxide. There is the likelihood that if the United States shifts towards so-called clean coal there will be a significant increase in American emissions of CO2 with a resulting negative impact in this and every other country in the world.

I believe we have much more capacity to influence the Americans on climate change with carrots and sticks if we have the Lisbon treaty. Through Europe, Ireland will be much more powerful in the negotiations on climate change if we have the Lisbon treaty. If we want to cope with climate change the Lisbon treaty would be a distinct advantage to us. This issue is very live in the United States at present.

I shall hand Mr. Bruton over to Deputy Flynn shortly.

Mr. John Bruton

I always like to be interviewed by Mayo people. I am interviewed regularly by one. I ask Deputy Flynn to convey my good wishes to her father.

Deputy Timmons made a suggestion concerning the idea I put forward. I did not think of that when I was Taoiseach. This has evolved in my mind only in the past number of months in preparation for coming to talk to the committee. Are we more comfortable with the French Presidency than we might be, for instance, with a Czech or Slovenian Presidency? In the actual mechanics of managing the day-to-day business of the Presidency under the provisions of the Nice treaty, the Slovenians did a fantastic job. It was a credit to all small countries. I have no doubt the Czechs will do the same.

However, there was a particular advantage in having President Sarkozy in the Presidency at this particular time when we face the global financial crisis and the Georgian crisis. He knows all the world leaders and was in a better position to pick up the phone and talk to President Bush or President Putin or to whomsoever he needed to talk than either of his predecessors or his successor would be. That is why the provision with regard to a permanent EU president in the Lisbon treaty is important. I had the opportunity of listening to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice at a private briefing during the past three weeks. She was asked what was the most important thing she had learned during her period as Secretary of State — what the most important thing was that one needed in order to be successful. She said that one needed to have developed personal relations with leaders in other countries. That was more important than crisis management training or any other thing.

If, under the Lisbon treaty, we were to have a permanent EU president for two and a half years and a full-time foreign minister for five years, they would be better able over time to develop those sorts of contacts than a person would be who was in the job for only six months. That is another argument with which I am sure Deputies are familiar.

I shall hand over to Deputy Flynn and there will be an opportunity for speakers to come back to these points in the second half.

Mr. John Bruton

I did not answer Deputy Creighton's questions.

There will be an opportunity to do that.

I welcome ambassador Bruton and thank him for his paper. It did not contain any eurospeak and for that I am very grateful. Even subsidiarity did not feature in it which is great.

Mr. Bruton mentioned lack of influence and gave us some concrete examples. How many people would be on the committees he spoke of and is it the norm that every country is represented? I wish to know if this demonstrates a real lack of influence. Did we have a genuine expectation that we would be included on those committees?

I wish to consider the idea of unanimity and that it takes every country to ratify the Lisbon treaty before it can become a reality. The Irish have rejected it and it is to be hoped that they do not get a cynical attitude, believing that because they rejected the treaty, Lisbon is now dead. From having different speakers before the sub-committee we know that Lisbon is not dead, that other countries have gone on and have ratified it. Now there is talk that there may be a two-tier approach to Europe. I wonder how we can explain this to the people. What does unanimity stand for when we did not achieve it, given that the Lisbon Agenda is still going ahead according to many of the presentations we received?

Much reference has been made to the statements by the IDA and Enterprise Ireland that foreign direct investment has not been affected by the rejection of the Lisbon treaty. It was not pointed out by other speakers who asked the question but it is important to say that the belief among the companies the IDA and Enterprise Ireland deal with is that Ireland will ratify the Lisbon treaty eventually. It is not true to say there is not going to be an impact. It is probably more a belief that we will get there in the end in ratifying the Lisbon treaty somewhere along the way.

The reasons given for the rejection of the treaty by the Irish include, lack of knowledge, corporation tax, the issue of a Commissioner, and social issues. Mr. Bruton referred to many of those in his paper. Speaking in my constituency during the summer, Cardinal Seán Brady referred to the European Union being anti-life, anti-family, and that it was pushing anti-religious policies. Will Mr. Bruton comment on that? The fact that the European Union was not promoting a pro-family or pro-Christian ethos in how it was moving forward may have came to mind when many people voted "No". From what we have heard from previous witnesses, there is no stomach for renegotiation but there seems to be a feeling that we probably could get a Commissioner for each country. I invite Mr. Bruton to comment on whether that is realistic.

If a two-tier Europe develops, which is likely if Ireland decides against running another referendum on the Lisbon treaty, we might end up tying ourselves closely to the United Kingdom in the future rather than being central to the European Union, which is something we have valued greatly as a country since we joined the European Union in 1973. People may not have realised that is a likelihood. That is something that was articulated by a number of speakers who came before the committee in recent days.

Mr. Bruton made an interesting point on what we might do in the future and whether a referendum is required. I am sure we will run it by the senior counsel who come before us later today. Irish people feel very empowered by the fact that they can vote in a referendum on European issues and I would not like to think our inability to sell the Lisbon treaty to them would result in a change of direction in order to find a quick fix to get around the problem in future. I understand the point Mr. Bruton made but I stress that the power to vote on European issues is something people value highly and I would not like to see that power eroded.

Mr. John Bruton

First, I am very concerned to hear suggestions of a two-tier Europe being canvassed. It is not possible for the Lisbon treaty to come into effect without Ireland's approval. It is not possible to introduce a two-tier Europe under the Lisbon treaty for 26 members without the 27. What is possible — this was canvassed by the Centre for European Policy Studies in a document it produced shortly after the Irish decision — is for the other 26 to ratify a new treaty containing all the content of the Lisbon treaty but without Ireland. However, that is an entirely different process and that new treaty for 26 member states would have to go through the ratification process in all of the other countries separately. They would in fact have to set up a new European Union, separate from the existing European Union.

What about the provision for enhanced co-operation?

Mr. John Bruton

I do not think enhanced co-operation is a suitable vehicle for most of the provisions of the Lisbon treaty.

That is good to hear.

Mr. John Bruton

I do not believe enhanced co-operation procedures would work. Certainly if anybody is canvassing the idea of a two-tier Europe on the basis of enhanced co-operation I would ask the senior counsel to go through that with a fine-tooth comb because I do not think it is a runner. I know there is a lot of anger in some European countries about what we did. Something that emanates from that will be unwise and reckless. One hears unwise and reckless statements in this country, too, when people get annoyed. However, I do not believe such statements have the power to do what is being suggested there. That does not mean we should not do everything in our power to seek to ratify the treaty our democratically-elected Government signed up to. We have the obligation to come up with the answer, as far as that is concerned, and I speak as an Irish citizen.

On the suggestion as to when one can clarify whether a referendum is necessary, we have now had examples of several treaties that have not required a referendum and others that did, but no clear statement of the legal basis for this distinction. I am suggesting that in this, just as in other areas, the Oireachtas has an obligation to clarify the law, rather than leaving clarification in the hands of judges. This is the place where laws are made. They are interpreted in the Supreme Court, but this is where they are made. In my view if one wants to make law about when there are to be referenda on EU treaties, make them here in the Oireachtas, not somewhere else. That would be very reassuring, I believe, to other European countries, because they would believe the Irish were taking this seriously. They know there is a problem here and they are trying to give us the clearest guidelines they can as to when, in future treaty referendums, we shall be triggering a referendum or not. That is my argument, but it is entirely a matter for the elected representatives to decide how to propose that legislation.

I read Cardinal Brady's speech, and I would refer him to Article 17 of the Lisbon treaty — an article not contained in any previous treaty — which gives explicit recognition to religious entities and explicitly protects them from, for example, anti-discrimination legislation in the manner in which they run schools and matters such as that. Far from being anti-religious, the Lisbon treaty is the most pro-religion European treaty ever produced. That article was not in any previous treaty and I can say that the Vatican pushed very hard to have Article 17 included. It regards the inclusion of Article 17 as being of primordial importance. It is a big loss, in terms of the protection of religious freedom, that Article 17 is not now coming into effect because Ireland stopped it.

Likewise, if one reads the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the very first article says that human dignity is inviolable and must be respected and protected. That could be a quotation from a papal encyclical. Article 2 says everyone has the right to life and no one shall be condemned to the death penalty or execution. One of the big struggles of Catholic bishops in the United States is against the death penalty there, and it is here in black and white in the European charter, which is being incorporated into the Lisbon treaty. That is a very strong pro-life statement, and it is very important that those who share that view, as I do, should make that case.

I want to come to the issue of the Commissioner which was raised by Deputies Flynn and Creighton. I am agnostic about this matter. I believe a strong Commission is really important and I have something of a problem in seeing how a Commission of 34, as is likely to occur within the next 15 years, will be very strong. There will be a very strong President and a great many Commissioners, not all of whom will be fully employed, attending the meetings of the college every Wednesday, but their input will not be all that great. A Commission of 34 will not be as strong as one of 15 or 20, which could have been the norm had the Lisbon treaty been ratified — with equal representation.

On the other hand, would Irish people feel as comfortable with proposals emanating from a Commission which did not have a Commissioner from Ireland, Germany or France for a five-year period as they would with proposals made in the ten-year period during which the Commission had a German, French and Irish Commissioner? It is difficult to strike a balance on this issue and there are strong arguments on both sides. The argument in favour of having a smaller Commission is good, valid, respectable and decent and is made by people who are concerned about the interests of small countries. Historically, the European Commission has been the protector of small countries against the cabals of the larger countries in the European Union. A strong Commission is, therefore, of vital interest to Ireland. Does one achieve this objective by having a Commission of 34 members? That is a matter for debate and a question on which I am agnostic.

At this stage, I must interrupt Mr. Bruton to allow those present who have not yet spoken an opportunity to contribute. Thereafter, those speakers who have asked questions may follow up on the replies they have received. Before we do so, however, I will put two questions to Mr. Bruton.

Having campaigned during the referendum on the Lisbon treaty, it is apparent to me and other campaigners on both sides of the debate that we need to bring the people of Ireland with us in decisions concerning the future of Europe. Citizens need to believe their interests are embedded in such decisions and their voices have been heard. Is there not a danger that any change we make in law to reduce the number of times the population is consulted on European treaties or changes to the Constitution would widen the democratic deficit that undermines much of the good work taking place and thereby exacerbate some of the difficulties we face?

Some of those who have appeared before the sub-committee have used the opportunity to offer their thoughts about what can be done domestically to ensure Ireland continues to be at the heart of Europe and deals with the challenge of ratifying the Lisbon treaty. What are Mr. Bruton's thoughts in this regard?

Mr. John Bruton

On the first question, making a change in law would create the danger the Chairman describes. The scenario is similar to that which arises regarding the question of Commissioners to the extent that while there are arguments in favour of clarifying when referenda are necessary, there are also dangers in doing so. It is a matter of political judgment. I have put forward the proposal for the sub-committee to consider. It could adopt it at this stage or postpone a decision for five years or until the Lisbon issue has been addressed. The proposal should be considered because, as a member parliament of the European Union, the Oireachtas has an obligation to clarify our law for the other member parliaments of the European Union.

On the question of moving beyond the current position, it is not easy to divine the right course. If a second referendum were held and failed to secure a "Yes" vote, it would be a very serious setback. I do not know what would happen as a result but in my view nothing should happen and we should continue with the Nice treaty. However, no one can guarantee such an outcome. I do not know what other countries would do in the exercise of their sovereign rights because, as I explained to Deputy Flynn, they are free to proceed differently from us.

If I was pushed into a corner to answer the question, I would have to state that I favour a second referendum because a large number of people indicated they did not understand the Lisbon treaty. It is fair to point out that the Lisbon treaty was written in a fashion as to make it almost unreadable. While the constitution we drafted in the convention was long, it was readable. On the other hand, the Lisbon treaty is unreadable because it is a series of amendments. It was legitimate for many people to say they could not understand what it meant, because it was very difficult to understand. It may, therefore, be the case that there is an argument for giving people a second opportunity to look at it. Having had it more fully explained, they could then decide whether they would wish to make a different decision in the interest of the country. However, the timing of that is a matter for fine political judgment, best made by people living in this country. I am not one of those for the moment.

How likely is it that if the Lisbon treaty is not ratified, we will default to the Nice treaty and that no attempt will be made by other countries to move forward?

Mr. John Bruton

That is the most likely scenario, because when other countries look at the legal options, they will find it extremely difficult to move forward with the Lisbon treaty with only 26 countries. They would have to go through the ratification process all over again. A number of countries would probably feel that putting Ireland in a situation where it was being semi-excluded from the European Union might be something that could happen to them at some point in the future and they might not go along with that. Therefore, this could lead to a large split in the 26 that would not be in anybody's interests. It would not be in our interest because we would have contributed to that position and would be blamed for it, even though it might be their response to what we did that caused the direct problem. In addition, it would not be good for them because it would reduce the cohesion of the European Union.

What the Union will probably be forced to do is to return to what is, arguably, a more sensible approach to dealing with treaty amendment. Think of the way we amend our Constitution. We put forward individual amendments to achieve individual objectives. We could easily break up the Lisbon treaty in that manner. I mentioned nine different changes the Lisbon treaty made. We could have nine treaties, one on each of those. The likelihood of people voting "Yes" to them in a referendum here is much higher than it is to a treaty that puts all nine together in one document, where they are asked to take it or leave it. If people felt, for example, they could accept the one on the charter and the one on justice and home affairs and be free not to go for one on energy, that sense of empowerment would create a positive atmosphere in which it would be easier to get a "Yes" to all of them than it would be by the method we have adopted so far of putting them all together.

I strongly suggest that the contents of the Lisbon treaty will stay on the European agenda, no matter how many times we say "No", because the contents of the treaty are needed by Europe. The European Union needs the Lisbon treaty if it is to work. Those provisions are essential to the working of the Union. How they are presented is another matter and we may have to look at that again. There would be great reluctance to go down any of the routes I have mentioned, but the latter course is probably the best in the eventuality that ratification becomes impossible, either because of a second "No" or because there is not a willingness to go ahead with a second referendum. If that happens, the approach of presenting individual treaties and topics, as we do with constitutional amendments, might be the better approach. I stress these are personal opinions and not the opinion of the European Commission delegation in Washington.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

I thank Mr. Bruton for his presentation and paper. Earlier this morning I shared with the sub-committee the suspicion I had as to the purpose of the sub-committee. I suspected it was, in effect, part of the choreography for a rerun of the Lisbon referendum. On the basis of Mr. Bruton's contribution today and the session this morning, it is becoming increasingly clear that the sub-committee is one in which ideas are to be hothoused and sought on how referenda can be set aside. This is an inappropriate function for this sub-committee.

To interrupt, the terms of reference are very clear.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

I am conscious of that. I have read them.

That is ridiculous.

I am allowing everybody six minutes in which to make a contribution. The only time I interrupt is when any doubt is cast upon our terms of reference. They are very clear; the sub-committee's function is to consider Ireland's future in the European Union. So far, every speaker has put forward ideas and thoughts in this regard. We are all present to hear these. It is when we begin to draft our report that we will make decisions. I stress this to Ms McDonald and ask her to proceed.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

I am using my time, as is my right, to express a view. My observation is that the purpose I have outlined is the one to which the sub-committee is being used. That is a very great pity and represents inappropriate use of the committee's time.

As Chairman, it is not my intention that the sub-committee be used in such a way. Furthermore, I do not believe it is the intention of the members of the sub-committee who are making contributions. As Chairman, I make it clear to Ms McDonald that it is my job to work impartially within our terms of reference. I will ensure this happens.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

I thank the Chairman and ask him to allow me impartially to use the six minutes available to me.

Mr. Bruton described the need for a referendum as a problem. For the most part, people would take issue with that. Referenda, as he knows, present an almost unique opportunity for Irish people to adjudicate and cast a democratic verdict on treaty change and the direction of the European project. It is very important that people have maximum input in that regard.

Mr. Bruton seems to take the view that the Oireachtas and the courts should interpret the relationship between this State and the European Union and he amplified this point in his written submission. I disagree with him. Where blue-collar workers demand that their rights be enhanced in any new treaty, for instance, their demand is legitimate. It is not just made by the working class but by its representative organisations, particularly the European Trade Union Confederation. When the demand can be typified in these Houses, including this sub-committee, as some kind of racist clarion call, it further illustrates that these institutions are by no means a replacement for the democratic verdict and adjudication of the people.

Does Mr. Bruton believe it is appropriate for the Government, in the face of the "No" vote, to continue to encourage other member states to proceed with ratification?

Mr. Bruton outlined what he understood to be examples of the undermining of Irish influence by way of reference to different committees in respect of which Ireland has no automatic entitlement. I do not accept they represent any serious deterioration in our standing at EU level. Mr. Bruton made a point on political naivety, which I heard very clearly——

Mr. John Bruton

I never used the term.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

I heard the term. I apologise if I am attributing the comment incorrectly.

Mr. John Bruton

It was a female voice.

Ms Mary Lou McDonald, MEP

That is fine. Mr. Bruton made a point nonetheless about goodwill in political life. Nobody would contest the value of this but goodwill is not sufficient and cannot be the only basis on which to proceed. It is not compelling to argue to the Irish people that they should ratify any and every treaty simply because their failure to do so would put them in the bold corner or because their goodwill stakes would deteriorate at EU level.

As I said, for my party, workers' rights and public services were at the core of our decision to campaign against the Lisbon treaty. I believe they were at the core of the decision many people made to vote against it. These are not so much questions for Mr. Bruton as observations. However, I would like him to tell me whether he is afraid of referendums and substantive ongoing debate on the direction of the European Union project. There is no singular view on how it should and must proceed.

Mr. John Bruton

Ms McDonald has said she disagrees with me. She is perfectly entitled to do so but she is not entitled to misrepresent me, as she has done. I did not say the need to hold referendums presents a problem. I said the lack of clarity with regard to when a referendum is or is not needed is a problem. That is the issue I wish to address in order that there might be clarity in Irish law concerning when referendums are needed. Holding a referendum is part of our constitutional practice. The Government has chosen not to use it with some treaties but not with others. It has not provided guidance for the rest of Europe on when a referendum is necessary.

I can assure the Member of the European Parliament that I am not a participant in any choreography. Anything I have suggested is entirely my own, the words written by me, without reference to anybody. I did not consult anybody about what I would say in terms of seeking permission to say it. These are solely my own ideas. Ms McDonald may disagree with what I bring forward about clarifying when a referendum is needed and she may be right, but this is not part of any choreography.

As far as employment rights are concerned, there is a big title, Article 155 and those which follow it, which deals with employment rights in the European Union and the promotion of employment within the Union. The European Union has been immensely helpful in promoting employment in this country. Many members may not be aware that one of the important foundation stones of the Celtic tiger era was the money spent by the European Union in the 1970s and 1980s in promoting free education in regional technical colleges for the young people who went on to provide the workforce for the American companies which came to this country. Without that EU money supporting the regional technical colleges the transformation that has occurred in the past 20 years would never have happened. We persuade ourselves that we did it all on our own. We did not, although we did a large part of it. A significant part of it was done with the help of the European Union.

Unlike the Nice treaty, the Lisbon treaty contains guarantees in respect of the public service. These were inserted in the Constitution — I remember them being inserted — as a result of demands made by the European trade union movement, in particular in France. In rejecting the Lisbon treaty one rejects these provisions which provide for the protection of public services and reverts to the Nice treaty which does not provide these protections. I do not understand the position of——

Ms Mary Lou McDonald

These matters were debated in the course of the referendum campaign and we do not have the capacity to go through them in detail. The provisions to which Mr. Bruton refers in respect of public services are grossly inadequate and do not offer the protection required. With all due respect to the sub-committee, it should tease out precisely how we might get to a position collectively where we could make a pitch to secure these protections rather than rehash the arguments made during the campaign.

The people have spoken on this issue and made their adjudication. The issues are diverse but clear. Are we going to be serious about finding political remedies and a pathway or are we going to have the same debate again in some kind of virtual reality? I consider that a piece of political choreography but do not say Mr. Bruton is party to it.

Mr. John Bruton

It would be best if Ms McDonald did not.

I will intervene at this point. We will move on. I have allowed everybody to put their points to Mr. Bruton.

Mr. John Bruton

May I respond to the question on the public service?

I will allow Mr. Bruton to respond to it but I wish to make a point in order that Ms McDonald will be aware of it. We will next examine the different points raised and consider what Ireland's future will be in particular policy areas, including the public service, workers' rights and others relating to foreign policy and taxation policy.

On a point of information in response to Ms McDonald's point——

Is it a point of order?

Yes. The Chairman will allow a point of order, but not a point of information.

I will allow a point of order if it is one.

I wish to make a point regarding the participation of my party, in the context of Ms McDonald's point which I absolutely reject, that we came here as a group and that there was some preordained plan for the sub-committee. In fact, the only group which came before it with a preordained plan was Sinn Féin.

I must stop the Deputy.

From the very first meeting Sinn Féin asked for a minority report.

That is not a point of order. I must stop this debate. We must move to the next part of our discussion.

I regret that Ms McDonald made those remarks but the reason I say this——

Does the Senator wish to raise a point of order?

The Senator can use her time later to make any other point she wishes.

The remarks made by Ms McDonald — whether she meant to do this — implicitly cast aspersions on every member of the sub-committee. I do not speak for anybody else but personally reject what is being implied by her. The purpose of the sub-committee is expressed in its terms of reference and I am certainly engaging in that way. If any party represented on the sub-committee is rehashing and re-running the Lisbon treaty campaign, it is Sinn Féin.

That is not a point of order. When Ms McDonald made her point, I set out on behalf of the sub-committee our terms of reference and gave my view on how they were being implemented. In my experience, following many days of meetings, all participants are doing their best to impartially do that work. I invite Mr. Bruton to make a final point and will then hand over to anybody who wishes to put a question to him.

Mr. John Bruton

The provisions protecting public services in the Lisbon treaty may not be adequate in the eyes of some but they are an advance on what is included in the existing treaties. In voting to reject the Lisbon treaty one is voting to reject provisions to protect public services and reverting to the existing treaties which do not include the provisions contained in the Lisbon treaty. One could argue that if there was to be another European Union treaty, one could seek to have stronger provisions on public service included. Perhaps the adoption of another European Union treaty to deal with that matter is something a Member of the European Parliament could advocate. As far as renegotiation of the existing treaty is concerned, it does not look as if there is much prospect of that happening.

It is unwarranted for anyone to come before the sub-committee and imply base motives to its members, to suggest we are only here to re-run the Lisbon treaty referendum campaign. That is uncalled for and should be withdrawn. I echo what has been said, that the only party which seems to have come here with any agenda is Sinn Féin.

There is no doubt that the Lisbon treaty is good for workers' rights. It protects workers' rights down along the line. Mr. Bruton will be aware of the 1974 European case in which a trade union sought to ensure equal pay for equal work. That was very good for women workers who did not have such protection at that time. Will Mr. Bruton agree that the Charter of Fundamental Rights underpins the European Union with a strong commitment to workers' rights as well?

I have two other points. As regards his proposal to amend the European Communities Act 1972, I asked in terms of the fact that the Attorney General gave the legal advice and found this was constitutional and had to be put in the referendum. Could the same objective be achieved by the Attorney General specifying the elements in a particular treaty that might be contrary to the Constitution, so that there could be a focus on them when it is time for a debate on a referendum? As regards the election in the United States with the stated position of one of the candidates to penalise American companies that have foreign direct investment and induce them to bring their money home, what has he to say about that?

Mr. Bruton went into some detail about many of the very good things that were in the Lisbon treaty. However, essentially the treaty was about the institutions and in many ways it could be argued on one side or another that many of the proposed changes would give extra powers to the various institutions in the European Union. Could he please comment on the institutions?

I want to repeat the question I asked earlier as regards the lack of influence, as highlighted by Mr. Bruton — in the two committees he mentioned where Ireland did not have a representative. Was it a realistic expectation that we might have had a representative on both of those committees? On the whole idea of the internal discipline of the euro group that he makes reference to in his script, recently when we had difficulties with the banks, we consulted with Brussels and we were told, in effect, to sort out our own problem as this was a domestic issue. He mentioned nationalistic economic policy making. I just wonder how he might tie in those two areas. When we faced difficulty as regards a national economic issue we were told to sort it out ourselves. Europe got together at a later stage to try to adopt an EU-wide approach.

Mr. John Bruton

It is true, as Deputy Costello points out, that there are numerous protections for workers, both in the Lisbon treaty and in the charter. For example, there is the prohibition on child labour, support for family life as far as the work-life balance is concerned and various other provisions in regard to social security. These are the bases on which the European Union will do its work.

As far as the proposal that is long-established party policy of penalising what Senator Kerry described as "Benedict Arnold companies" — Benedict Arnold being somebody who went over to the side of the British during the 1776 American War of Independence — this is a long-standing Democratic demand. The difficulty, of course, is that if Americans do that, they are likely to suffer retaliation. America is extremely dependent on inward investment into the United States. There is an enormous European investment in the United States, including significant Irish investment. Clearly, if the United States was to place barriers on overseas investment by US companies, I would expect we should retaliate on behalf of the European Union. It would be the right thing to do, in my opinion.

It is very important to maintain open investment here and I do not believe proposals of that nature are going in the right direction. We do not have restrictions about investment into Europe. The United States still retains them in regard to national security, the airlines and shipping — and we should like to see those restrictions removed. Investment across the Atlantic improves the efficiency of the transatlantic economy and is good for everybody.

It is impossible to answer Deputy Flynn's question on whether we might expect to have anyone on those committees. It is true these committees were smaller than the full membership of the European Union might warrant. However, one should remember that the chairman of the committee which drafted the Single European Act was former Senator Jim Dooge from Ireland. The future of Europe committee currently being established will be chaired by a former Spanish Prime Minister and does not have an Irish member. Despite being in the euro zone, Ireland does not have a seat on the committee on the supervision of banks, whereas Britain, which is outside the euro zone, is represented. That tells us something.

With regard to the banking crisis, Europe as a whole did a good job and while it is not my place to say this, the Irish Government was faced with very difficult circumstances and had to deal with them at great speed overnight. While one can criticise the decisions it took, it acted decisively although the European Union has altered some aspects of the decision. Europe and Ireland have done their job in as far as was possible in the circumstances. That we were able to reach a Common Position in Europe and among individual countries as quickly as we did is a sign of the value and strength of the European Union. The Irish Government and the European Union should not be criticised because they did a good job. That is the way to look at the issue.

Most of the questions I asked have been answered in a roundabout way. On the European Court of Justice, has Mr. Bruton seen any improvements in terms of transparency or changes that would improve public confidence in the court?

On the allegation that public services will be privatised, which I regard as complete nonsense, posters were erected all over the country, particularly in Dublin, threatening people that if they voted "Yes" to the Lisbon treaty, their education and health services would be privatised by the European Union. Is this in any way a possibility?

On Mr. Bruton's point about the dismay felt by people in America as a result of the "No" vote, many of us had grave concerns about certain individuals who have economic interests in the military and intelligence sphere in the United States. Has Mr. Bruton, in his role as European Union ambassador in Washington, become conscious of this issue? The Heritage Foundation is one element of the equation. In the past, moves by NATO to strengthen its European base were strongly and vehemently opposed by the United States. Is there a certain agenda among, as it were, the militarists in the United States who resist any advance towards a more coherent Common Foreign and Security Policy in the European Union?

I emphasise the role of the European Court of Justice. It has been regularly pointed out in our considerations that the court is showing a bias in some of its decisions which could undermine many of the commitments made in Mr. Bruton's presentation, for example, as regards the right to life, the inviolability of human dignity and so forth. I ask Mr. Bruton to comment and make any concluding remarks he has in order that we can wrap up.

Mr. John Bruton

The European Court of Justice is bound by the treaties. The Lisbon treaty, in particular, contains very strong provisions in Article 17, which protects religious institutions. Religious institutions run 95% of schools in Ireland and Article 17 is particularly powerful in protecting religious education. I cannot understand how anyone could have justified voting against the treaty on that basis. If we rely on the Nice treaty, it does not contain an article protecting religious institutions. Whatever the risk that the European Court of Justice would go down the route alluded to by the Chairman, we have rejected the Lisbon treaty which would have eliminated any such risk.

As far as the European Court of Justice is concerned, it is very important to speak about its judgments politically and that Members of the European Parliament should comment on them. If they feel judgments go in the wrong direction, they should say so. We have elected members in the European Parliament, so they can, among other things, influence legal developments. I do not believe judges are somehow independent of criticism. They can make mistakes. Judges here at home can also make mistakes. It is important we are vigilant with regard to the European Court of Justice, but we must at the same time respect its independence, because the rule of law and the separation of the judicial process from the political process is fundamental to what the European Union and Irish republicanism are all about.

On behalf of the sub-committee I thank Mr. Bruton for his presentation and for taking the time to travel from America to meet us and help us in our work.

Sitting suspended at 4.17 p.m. and resumed at 4.30 p.m.
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