JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 6 Nov 2008

General Affairs and External Relations Council: Discussion.

Chairman

Item No. 1 is the discussion on the forthcoming General Affairs and External Relations Council agenda. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister of State for European affairs are not available today to meet with the committee despite their best efforts, and ours. Nevertheless, it is important that we discuss the forthcoming agenda items for the GAERC. The Department has supplied the usual briefing for the joint committee. If members have a particular point they wish to raise or emphasise to the Minister, this can be done by the secretariat after the meeting.

The monthly meeting will take place in Brussels on 10 and 11 November. As is the practice every six months, the Ministers for Foreign Affairs will meet jointly with the European Union defence Ministers for the part of the GAERC meeting on 10 November. The issues to be discussed include European security and defence policy in general, and the situation in the western Balkans and Afghanistan in particular.

The GAERC will also meet on 11 November with the foreign and development Ministers who will discuss food security and economic partnership agreements, EPAs. As part of their normal business, the Foreign Ministers will discuss Iraq, Burma, the Democratic Republic of Congo, preparations for the EU-Russia summit on 14 November as well as preparations for the European Council meeting on 11 and 12 December.

Second, as France holds the current Presidency of the EU, President Sarkozy will host President Medvedev on 14 November for the annual EU-Russia summit. The summit is expected to focus on three areas: EU-Russia relations, the financial crisis and international issues. It will also review progress on the four common spaces under the EU-Russia strategic partnership agreement. These are freedom, security and justice, external security, and economic research and education. There will also be a discussion on how the EU and Russia can work better together on conflict resolution in Georgia, Moldova-Transnistria and Nargorny-Karabakh. Ireland holds the position that despite difficulties, it is important to maintain dialogue with Russia. The EU and Russia remain essential partners on a whole range of issues. On the EU-Russia summit, there are issues that members may wish to comment on because the situation in that area is somewhat fluid. There have been developments in the past few days which it is hoped will be resolved or at least discussed in the course of the EU-Russia summit.

Third, Ministers may discuss Iraq in order to review developments but a detailed discussion is not expected. The GAERC is expected to adopt conclusions focusing on the importance of political reconciliation in Iraq and restating the EU’s continuing support. The agreement aims to regularise the position of US forces in Iraq after the expiry of the UN mandate on 31 December. If this is not agreed by 31 December, Iraq has indicated that it would seek an extension to the UN mandate.

Fourth, the discussion on the Democratic Republic of Congo will focus on the recent deterioration of the security and humanitarian situation in the east of the country. The current unrest has its roots in the Rwanda genocide of 1994 and is essentially a conflict between Hutus who fled the conflict in Rwanda and Tutsi rebels based in DRC led by General Nkunda. The fighting has extended to fierce clashes between the Tutsi rebels and the DRC Government troops, which has led to the displacement of thousands of civilians. Members are fairly familiar with that conflict. I ask them to bear in mind that particular part of the GAERC.

Fifth, Ministers will hold a general discussion on Burma and are likely to agree conclusions. The human rights, political and humanitarian situation in Burma remains a matter of deep concern. Despite indications, the regime has failed to engage in political dialogue following the crackdown on unarmed protestors in September 2007. On 24 May, the regime completed its referendum on a new constitution with claims that there was a 98% turnout and 92% support. That is almost unique in political history. It is an extraordinary arrangement.

Deputy Joe Costello

We could do with that here.

Chairman

We could do with some of the flavour of that but we will not worry about it. The regime has also refused to engage with the UN. It appears the EU will be encouraging the UN Secretary General to become involved personally in the political track, building on the goodwill he generated in convincing the regime to accept help from the UN following cyclone Nargis. Until now he has been reluctant to become involved but a visit by the Secretary General to Burma in December has been hinted at.

The sixth item is the joint meeting with Defence Ministers, a very important topic as far as this country is concerned. The GAERC, meeting in foreign and defence formation, will adopt conclusions on the operation of the ESDP and will review current and planned military and civilian missions. The conclusions will refer to four areas: (i) civilian missions, of which there are currently eight, and capabilities; (ii) military missions, of which there are two in Chad and Bosnia Herzegovina, and capabilities; (iii) a political declaration on co-operation between the European Defence Agency and the Organisation Conjointe de Cooperation en Matiere d’Armement, OOCAR, which will address administrative arrangements for the management of armament projects; and (iv) an agreement of a declaration on an Erasmus style exchange scheme for military officers within the EU aimed at enhancing the capacity of EU armies to work together. That is an issue that I am sure engaged the general public in the recent referendum. I ask members to note it with a view to making comments later.

Seventh, there will be a general discussion on the western Balkans. Members are quite familiar with that subject. I note from a recent meeting of COSAC that the entire programme of EU enlargement is continuing apace. The fact that the referendum failed here does not mean that they all stop and head in the opposite direction. That is an area the committee proposes to visit in the not too distant future. I hope preparations are well in hand for that.

Eighth, the Ministers of Foreign Affairs and Defence will hold a general discussion on the situation in Afghanistan in the presence of the Secretary General of NATO. That will be discussed at some length. The situation in Pakistan is also affecting the situation in Afghanistan. Ireland’s key priorities regarding Afghanistan remain the attainment of security, stability, and development; Afghan responsibility for the reconstruction process; good governance; respect for human rights, including gender-rights; and the rule of law. Ireland is particularly concerned about the impact the continuing deterioration in the security situation is having on the operations of aid agencies in Afghanistan, including Irish NGOs. Members might like to comment on that.

The ninth item is the meeting of development Ministers. The main issues for discussion by the development Ministers are food security, the EPAs and preparations for the Doha International Conference on Financing for Development on 29 November to 2 December. The EU recognises that there is a global poverty crisis and is committed to tackling it through its commitments under the millennium development goals. Food security is an integral part of Ireland's aid programme and the Government established a hunger task force which reported in September. Do members wish to comment on any of those items?

Deputy Noel Treacy

It would be an opportunity for all of us, with the Chairman's leadership and support, to acknowledge President-elect Barack Obama's conclusive victory in the United States on Tuesday and to wish him well in the many challenges ahead, both for the United States and the world. It would be our wish, as members of the European Union, that we would be able to join with the President-elect, when he takes up office in January, in ensuring a bilateral approach to global affairs, taking into account the serious challenges that exist, the difficulties that have been compounded by the situation in Iraq and the challenges that will place on him, and the difficulties in other regions of the world, be it the DRC, Burma, the western Balkans, Afghanistan or any of the other areas. It is hoped that together we can work in parallel with the United States, through the European Union, in a way that will minimise military armaments and activity, strengthen mobility of people, including in transport, goods, services and aviation, and reintroduce a new trust to the world order, something that has been lacking in the past few years and that has impinged on economic activity across the world.

I hope our Ministers will take the opportunity presented by the forthcoming GAERC meeting to encourage the European Union to be ready to partner the United States and to bring this matter to its attention as we face uncertain economic times in the next three to five years. It is vital to recognise the global challenges faced by small or large member states of the European Union and countries outside the Union in respect of which the United States will play an important role in giving leadership. I hope the European Union will not be found wanting in giving leadership. We salute President Sarkozy in his leadership of the Presidency of the Union.

There is a demand on Europe to take account of the serious crisis in the financial world, particularly within the Union. Some movements have taken place in the markets, particularly in bank interest rates and so on. The European Central Bank will have to respond to that and all our banks will have to respond. In particular, there is a requirement for the Union to examine its resources, instruments and structures and to ensure that, as during the crisis in the 1970s when cash was made available to member states at a particular fixed rate of interest to stimulate development, economic activity and business sustainability, such a facility will again be made rapidly available, particularly from January onwards. During the two months to January 2009 it should be possible for the European Investment Bank, with the support and co-operation of the Union, its Council, Commission and college of Commissioners, to ensure that such resources will be made available to each member state to reignite the economic opportunities that are critical to the sustainability of each member state and thereby provide for the citizens of the Union. I hope that together with European leadership and a bilateral effort with the United States of America, we can contribute to bringing global stability and economic activity back to normal levels of performance as quickly as possible.

Deputy Joe Costello

I would like to be associated with Deputy Treacy's remarks congratulating Barack Obama as President-elect of the US. I hope he is able to effect the change he spoke about during the past almost two years of campaigning that took place. More than anything else what is required is global stability in the financial sector, the economic sector in terms of employment and in banking and financial institutions and on the other hand to sort out much of the military aggression that has prevailed under the current Administration. In that respect, in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan, we still have the little matter of extraordinary rendition, about which members of the Irish Government recently announced some initiatives would be taken on the Irish side. Could we get the Minister for Foreign Affairs to clarify the position in the context of those initiatives and to establish the position of the Irish Government because extraordinary renditions often related to European Union citizens and to the alleged use of Shannon Airport in that regard?

I raise another matter in the same vein, that of the EU-Russian summit that will take place on 14 November. I compliment the current Presidency on the alacrity with which President Sarkozy acted when nobody else seemed to have a handle on the situation in the early days. He came up with a six point plan, went straight to Moscow with it, got it accepted and then got the withdrawal to take place. Now we have a major forum to try to resolve the situation there on 4 November. I am pleased about the Irish participation in the process — four members of the 200 personnel force maintaining the peace there are Irish. I would like some clarification on the situation there because it is a much bigger issue than that of a conflict between a large country and another country that was part of the broader Russian entity that existed prior to the breakdown of the federation. There is also the major issue of energy security. Related to that is our request for a meeting with Russia in some capacity, namely, to have a meeting with the ambassador and discuss the issue and the possibility of a delegation visiting the Russian Federation. I would like further elaboration on that situation.

In terms of the western Balkans, Croatia is in the news and in newspaper reports today as expressing some disappointment that Ireland is part of the roadblock to enlargement in terms of the Lisbon treaty and what we will do now. Is there a mechanism whereby we could get some views from the representatives of Croatia here on how they perceive the issue? It would be valuable to us.

The Czech Presidency of the Union is only around the corner. I understand that the Czech President will visit here next week. Is there any chance he might drop into a meeting of the committee and have a word with us?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Most of what I had intended to say has already been raised by the two previous speakers. There is an opportunity now for Europe to assert itself in a much greater way than it has in recent years on the international and, more particularly, on the global stage from a foreign policy perspective. The change in Administration in the US has potential to create a void during the transition to the new Administration. It is vital that the French Presidency and the forthcoming Czech Presidency of the Union take a lead role in that regard. In terms of relations with Russia, that is of particular importance. The race to somehow embarrass Russia by trying to enlist further membership of NATO on the borders of Russia has been disingenuous and requires reflection. The European Union should and must play a role in encouraging a closer level of relations between contiguous countries to Russia to ensure that we do not end up with a conflict such as one we had recently, which, as I said at the time, was entirely of Georgia's making. Europe must assert itself in that regard. I hope the Government will take that position in the discussions at the GAERC meeting.

Clearly, there will be a change in emphasis from the United States, particularly in regard to Iraq and the whole area of human rights, which Deputy Costello mentioned. I welcome the Government's announcement that it will take a proactive role in encouraging the United States to end the practice of extraordinary rendition. That has given some interest groups support for the theory that Shannon Airport was in some way centrally involved in that. I am glad Deputy Costello referred to the alleged involvement of Shannon Airport — that canard that has been in circulation for quite some time. It is impossible for any airport to know what is the onward destination or the onward intent of those on private aircraft. The notion that searching or boarding planes will enhance Ireland's role in preventing the desecration of human rights is something of a fallacy. The approach being taken by the Government of making strong representations to the incoming US Administration in terms of ending the practice rather than simply suggesting that we would be involved in searching planes landing at Shannon Airport is correct. It has always been my information that the bulk of all those aircraft are boarded by personnel who work in the service industry down in Shannon. Clearly, nothing untoward has ever been identified on the ground or, to the best of my knowledge, ever took place in Shannon. It has been overstated by some groups who sought to suggest that the Irish Government should play a role in trying to understand the onward intentions of the US leased aircraft and of the people on board. That is probably stretching credibility too far. However, I welcome the approach the Government is taking in trying to bring an end to this dastardly practice of waterboarding and the other methods that have become known as extraordinary rendition. I hope the matter will be taken up by other member states in a manner that will put pressure on the incoming administration to deal with the Guantanamo Bay issue, which is still unresolved. President-elect Obama and Senator McCain had both indicated that they would end that policy.

Europe has a role here in making it clear from the early stages, as the Government has done through our ambassador in Washington, that it wants that practice brought to an end. It is extremely difficult when the United States asks other countries to respect human rights when it clearly violates basic human rights with regard to torture and the practice of keeping combatants in a process where they have not had access to justice. That is unacceptable.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

I agree with most of the comments of previous speakers. Obviously it is fortuitous that we are having this meeting today just a day after the election of President-elect Barack Obama, which we should welcome. Even with a sea change in attitude by Washington on the international stage, there will still be a big role for Europe as a middle voice, particularly between Europe and Russia. Chairman, you will recall that I brought up the issue of Russia two meetings ago and on another previous occasion. For several meetings I have stressed the importance of this relationship. There are three different strands — the Europe-Russia relationship, the Irish-Russian commercial and cultural relationship and the issue of energy security and gas supplies from Russia. I am not sure whether the committee has written to the Russian ambassador——

Chairman

We have.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

Did we receive a response?

Chairman

We are awaiting a reply. A reminder has been sent in the past two days.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

Obviously he is a busy person but I am sure he will reply to us. If he does not or there is a problem and given the importance of this relationship and the decision we made at the meeting to visit Russia, I ask the committee to mandate you, Chairman, either through the Ceann Comhairle's office or otherwise, to instigate direct contacts with the equivalent committee of the Russian Parliament. It is unlikely that we could visit the committee this side of Christmas but I propose that a high level delegation visit Russia no later than the end of March 2009.

I attended the COSAC meeting with you, Chairman, and the chairman of the EU scrutiny committee over the weekend. What people from the 26 other member parliaments were saying at that meeting was virtually unanimous, that this business of Lisbon must be finished. It will not go away. We have heard this previously but it is no harm to re-affirm that message. Very politely but very firmly, we were left in no doubt that at least 25 large carriages of a particular train will leave the station and two relatively small carriages will stay behind, and if the two little carriages think the other 25 will return to the station for another few years——

Deputy Noel Treacy

One could be run over by that train.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

——that will not happen. The 25 carriages have left the train station and they will not turn back. People who say we can rest on legalisms and so forth are living in cloud cuckoo-land. The choice is stark — will Ireland stay at the centre of Europe or will it be a member of the slow lane Europe into the future? The Chairman and I are ad idem on this issue. There was an interesting suggestion from Deputy Costello that we invite the president of the Czech parliament to meet us but it seems he is busy having dinner with other people who are not particularly——

Deputy Noel Treacy

He just needs an option of dinner.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

I am told he is busy having dinner——

Deputy Joe Costello

He has meetings anyway.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

According to The Irish Times, it was dinner.

Deputy Noel Treacy

As long as it is convivial.

Deputy Joe Costello

We can give him a sandwich.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy

We do not have the resources to provide as exquisite a dinner menu as the person he is meeting but a plain luncheon in our modest restaurant would not go astray. We should invite him to meet the committee if possible.

Chairman

There was a system whereby members could meet visiting delegations over dinner or lunch. That was the practice when I chaired this committee previously but it appears to have been discontinued to an extent. We should re-examine that. Meeting over lunch is a great means of combining work with pleasure and is also a time saver. We should consider to what extent we can use that practice again. I will come back to the matter of Russia later.

Senator Maurice Cummins

With regard to the Czech representatives, it is essential, regardless of whether we meet over lunch or at one of these meetings, to get an opportunity to have a discussion with them.

Chairman

I am told it is a state visit. It could be connected or unconnected with the business ahead but it is a state visit by the president.

Senator Maurice Cummins

We can twist it whatever way we wish ourselves.

Deputy Joe Costello

If he is meeting individuals, he can be invited.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I am sure there is flexibility.

Chairman

We will do that.

Senator Maurice Cummins

What Croatia is saying about Ireland is also matter of concern. It is clear from my conversations with people from other EU member states that our friends are beginning to get a little scarce because of our stance on Lisbon. There is a sub-committee discussing this issue but we must grasp the nettle at some stage. There cannot be another referendum quite soon without explaining everything. Some would say that we explained it to death on the last occasion but there are still people who are not au fait with the Lisbon treaty and what it means. The nettle will have to be grasped; the question is when. There is no point dealing with that until we are convinced it will be carried, and the public will require a great deal of convincing to do that.

The General Affairs and External Relations Council meeting has a lengthy agenda. I look forward to the report of that meeting with regard to how the EU reacts to some of the matters mentioned in it, such as Burma and particularly the situation in the Congo. The European representative has been very active but, as is stated in the memorandum, it is essential that the African Union gets involved as well in finding a solution to this major problem and we should make representations in that regard. The humanitarian situation is extremely grave. I will welcome the report that will be delivered after the Council meeting is held.

Chairman

Deputy Mulcahy's comments regarding discussions that took place with our EU parliamentary colleagues were absolutely accurate. However, the situation is even more serious than the Deputy suggests. An urgency and impatience that were not previously evident have developed. There is deep concern that the Lisbon treaty will not be ratified before the forthcoming European elections. Such an eventuality will give rise to particular difficulties for certain member states. It was evident from the assessment we carried out on foot of the information made available to us that while everybody was extremely courteous, understanding and conscious of the need not to be seen to be bullying a small nation, some countries — including smaller ones — are concerned with regard to the consequences of a long delay of 12 months or more in the treaty's ratification. There will be consequences for Ireland as a result of what has occurred.

It is unfortunate that those who were committed to obtaining a "Yes" vote in the referendum lost out. It has been suggested that the treaty was not adequately explained to people. However, it was obviously adequately explained to allow some people to vote "No". Certain individuals voted "No" on the basis of evidence put forward that a better deal was on the cards and that it would only be a matter of re-negotiating. There will be no re-negotiation and the sooner people realise that the better.

People must recognise the importance of Ireland's being part of and at the heart of the European Union. Ireland must be in a position to contribute to as well as to benefit from its membership. It is recognised by everyone that Ireland, as a small country, has played a major role in the EU and that we provided constructive assistance by being at the forefront. However, people's tolerance will not last for ever. Ireland has a constructive role to play and has reached the stage where it will be a net contributor to the European Union. It was a net beneficiary for many years and one cannot simply take one's football home when, for some reason, the tide in a game turns against one. In any event, the tide has not turned against us.

Our membership of the European Union has been extremely beneficial, particularly in the context of the social, political and economic aspects of the country's development. We know what must be done and we are aware of our responsibilities. It is up to us to try to resolve our difficulties and that matter has been the subject of discussion at meetings of the Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union in recent days.

EU-Russia affairs were the subject of more general discussion in recent weeks. There is recognition on the part of everyone in Europe that good relations should be established between Russia and the EU, for strategic and geographic reasons. The situation that currently exists could have consequences. If a NATO country is threatened by the Russian Federation, problems could arise. The concept behind NATO is that if one member country is threatened, all other member countries must come to its defence. Any northern European countries that may feel threatened in some way will expect European Union or NATO member states — depending on which organisation they hold membership of — to look after their interests. It was never anticipated that this might lead to conflict. However, it will lead to a need for negotiation. As several members pointed out, another aspect of this matter relates to fuel and fuel security. The French have been particularly anxious to improve relations with Russia in this regard for many trading reasons.

Several members referred to the Democratic Republic of Congo. The situation in that country has become extremely serious in recent weeks. Major humanitarian issues will inevitably arise there as a result of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and so on. It is likely that there will be lengthy discussions on this issue at the GAERC meeting. The extent to which other African Union countries will become involved remains to be seen. One of the sad aspects of this matter is that even though technology, negotiating techniques and other things develop and improve, the ability of peaceful nations to deal with situations such as that to which I refer remains less than brilliant. The new administration in the US may have a positive impact in respect of this and other matters and I join other members in congratulating the successful candidate.

Reference was made to the situation in Burma, which has been ongoing for a considerable period. Serious problems will continue to arise in this regard and the Ministers will engage in a discussion on what is taking place in Burma.

European security and defence policy will be discussed at the GAERC. This issue raised many difficulties during the recent referendum. We will be anxious to obtain a response from the Minister on this matter when he returns from the Council. This is the first opportunity we have had to engage in a discussion of this nature without the Minister being present. I regret that it has not always been possible to engage in a discussion with the Minister or to obtain a response from him in the aftermath of GAERC meetings.

Another issue that will be discussed is that which relates to the western Balkans. This matter is extremely important in the context of what is likely to happen in the future. There are political, social and economic issues that must be resolved and the European Union is very much engaged in this region at present. I have no doubt that the Minister will report to the committee on the matter.

We already dealt with the issue of Afghanistan, the meeting of development Ministers and the Doha conference and its implications. Discussions are under way on how to link the Doha conference with the G20 summit on the international financial system which is due to take place in Washington DC on 15 November. The international financial system will obviously engage Ministers and certain respondents for a considerable period.

I request that the committee secretariat might accede to members' requests to meet representatives from the Czech delegation at some level during the course of their visit. The Czech Republic is due to take up the Presidency of the European Union and it may also encounter some difficulties in ratifying the Lisbon treaty. While all other colleague nations were courteous towards the Czechs and deferred to their need to engage in a full and thorough discussion on this matter, they nonetheless hinted gently that they hoped it would not be too long before the Czech Republic ratifies the treaty. It would be helpful if we were given the opportunity to meet members of the delegation during their visit.

We will also need to follow up on the request to meet the Russian authorities. Perhaps we could wait for an informal meeting with the ambassador to ascertain his availability and to emphasise the importance the committee places on establishing better relations with the Russian Federation.

We must also vigorously pursue matters relating to the western Balkans. It is proposed that members of the committee visit the region and, as a result remain firmly in touch with what is happening there.

Is it agreed that we take action in respect of these matters? Agreed. I hope the Minister will not be of the view that I am suborning his role. That is not the intention. It is, however, imperative that we move forward.