JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union) debate -
Thursday, 20 Nov 2008

Ireland’s Future Engagement in the EU: Discussion with Cóir.

Chairman

I welcome our three guests to this meeting of the sub-committee, which was set up after the Lisbon referendum result to look at Ireland's future in the European Union. Our task is to produce a report by the end of November, based on our deliberations. We have four terms of reference, each of which is a work module. We have drawn up a list of witnesses and experts to speak to us on these various areas. This is the last week of public hearings. Next week we will produce our report.

The reasons we have invited you are twofold. The sub-committee is considering particular policy areas within Ireland that will be important as we move forward in the European Union, matters that will be affected by what happens in the European Union and, second, the views people hold of the European Union and what can be done to inform and to influence us. For these reasons we have invited you to participate in our meeting. Each organisation will have ten minutes to make an opening submission. Members of the committee will then ask questions.

Members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I have to remind my colleagues of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Richard Greene

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to state the reasons Cóir took such an active part in the Lisbon campaign. On 12 June the Irish people voted "No" to the Lisbon treaty. Their decision has not been respected by the Oireachtas or the European Union, which have refused to declare the treaty dead. Instead the current Government intends to press ahead with a second referendum. To sweeten the deal, it has been reported that the electorate will be offered declarations on important issues such as abortion, taxation and defence. As the committee fully understands, these declarations will be utterly useless since they can have no legal effect. The Lisbon treaty cannot and will not be changed one iota. Neither should it be changed. It should be scrapped, abandoned, declared dead.

Cóir's 2,000 volunteers spent six months knocking on doors, listening to people's concerns and offering information on the treaty. That was a meaningful consultation, one which means that we understand the many reasons people rejected the Lisbon treaty. Some 862,415 people voted "No" to Lisbon. On behalf of each of those people, we ask the committee today if it will show its respect for the Irish "No" vote by declaring the treaty dead and calling on EU leaders to end the treaty ratification process immediately. If the committee refuses to do so, then Cóir believes that the sole objective of this committee is to attempt to overturn the democratic wishes of the majority of the people who voted "No" to Lisbon.

This brazen effrontery and blatant denial of democracy shows the contempt in which the political parties hold the people. Suppressing the sovereign will of the people in such a fashion would be an act of treason, the likes of which has not been seen since the Act of Union. I would therefore ask the Chairman to answer the only pressing question now before this committee. Will you declare the treaty dead and call on EU leaders to end the treaty ratification process immediately?

Chairman

I have so far limited my participation in these sessions to focusing on our terms of reference and raising any points that I believe are relevant to our discussions, but when the work of the committee is brought up by guest or by anybody else it is incumbent on me to say what we are doing and to respond to any charges that are being made. I have to say that in the seven weeks that we have been here I have never heard such an outrageous allegation as the suggestion that anybody in this committee, including myself, is perpetrating an act of treason.

Mr. Richard Greene

You are. Article 6 of the Constitution says that once the people have been consulted——

Chairman

Mr. Greene, you will allow me to finish. I did not interrupt you.

Mr. Richard Greene

The Constitution means something.

Chairman

Excuse me, Mr. Greene.

Mr. Richard Greene

You are accusing me of saying a falsehood. I am not. I am quoting the Constitution to you. Once the people in a referendum have made a decision, the Constitution is absolutely clear that the people's wishes have to be represented and acted upon. In the American election recently, one of the first things the defeated candidate, John McCain, said to his very disappointed supporters was, "The people have spoken". That is a famous phrase, "The people have spoken". You know about that. Here we have a democratic Government refusing to recognise the right of 862,000 people. A very large majority expressed a "No" vote. This is the second time that a democratically elected Government has actually refused to recognise the wishes of the people in a referendum. In the case of the Nice treaty, the reason given was that there was a very small majority. In this case there is no such excuse. It is appalling that democratically elected politicians will refuse to honour the Constitution.

Chairman

Mr. Greene, I ask you to stop speaking. I was happy to let you interrupt me one more time because I wanted to hear the full brunt of your argument, but in the seven weeks of chairing this meeting, before which we have had a wide variety of guests, I as Chairman have never once been interrupted by a guest or member of this committee.

Mr. Richard Greene

I am concerned about my country.

Chairman

Let me complete. If you interrupt me one more time I will adjourn this meeting and I will decide that, as witnesses, you are not fit to come in here and participate in this discussion in this way.

Mr. Richard Greene

I am so concerned about my country that I do not care what people think of me.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Will you answer——-

Chairman

You will let me complete.

Mr. Richard Greene

You have not answered my question.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Will you answer?

Chairman

I will respond as Chairman of this committee to points that have been made.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Will you answer the only meaningful question before this committee?

Chairman

I demand that you give me the time to do so, or I will adjourn this meeting and we will terminate this part of our day's work.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Can you answer the question that was put to you?

Chairman

You have come in here, you have made an allegation that this sub-committee is participating in an act of treason.

Mr. Richard Greene

It is not an allegation — it is the truth. You are in the process of trying to run another referendum. That is what you are doing. It is very clear.

Chairman

As Chairman of this sub-committee, I am asserting very clearly that the sub-committee is deliberating on terms of reference delivered by a democratically elected Government. The democratically elected representatives of this people are here to participate openly in public session.

Mr. Richard Greene

Yes, but the democratically elected people are not respecting the vote.

Chairman

They are participating in this in such a way as to deliver our work. On the basis of the contribution you have made, Mr. Greene, I am adjourning this meeting and we will not go ahead with this session.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Will you respect the vote?

Mr. Richard Greene

I am asking if you will respect the vote. Will you answer the question?

Chairman

I have a point of order from a colleague. I will not have a group of people come in here——

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Who represent 862,000 people.

Chairman

——--accuse this committee or me of treason, accuse us of trying to bully anybody and make a blatant and failed attempt to subvert our work and accuse us of things which any fair-minded person knows we are not capable of.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

It is a simple question. Will you respect the Irish vote?

Chairman

I call Deputy Costello on a point of order.

Deputy Joe Costello

We have spent approximately two months dealing with terms of reference. There is a procedure whereby everybody comes in, makes a presentation and asks us questions. They do not get into conflict with the Chairman. It may well be that the witnesses have not got the full terms of reference. Perhaps we should clarify those terms of reference. It is not our function to make any proposals about re-running a referendum.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

Your function is to rescind the vote of the Irish people.

Chairman

You will let Deputy Costello complete his point of order.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

The only function of this Government is ——

Chairman

This is an Oireachtas committee, Ms Greene.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

My name is not Ms Greene.

Chairman

You will let Deputy Costello complete his point of order or I will adjourn.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

The only function of this committee and of this Government is to respect the Irish people.

Chairman

I will ask you one more time to terminate what you are saying or we will adjourn this meeting.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

We are not going to engage in this meaningless farce. We are going to terminate this interview.

Chairman

Deputy Costello should complete his point. If we are to be interrupted in this fashion we will adjourn.

Ms Niamh Uí Bhriain

This is a meaningless farce. It is an insult to the Irish people and we are leaving this meeting.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We have seen democracy at work. These people have come before us and they are not even prepared to engage. I am talking about the principle of democracy. Will you sit down and let us hear your argument? You are dictators. You have not the capacity to understand democracy. We are elected, you are not. Will you sit down and discuss it with us? You do not recognise the legitimacy of this House.

Chairman

I am adjourning this meeting.

Mr. Peter Murphy

No vote.

The witnesses withdrew.

Chairman

I have never seen such a disgraceful performance from any group which has come before us. Neither the committee nor I has ever been treated in such a way. It is a clear sign of their intent and the quality of contribution they were looking to make. It was a disgraceful performance. To accuse any member of this committee of an act of treason is the most appalling and disgraceful comment yet made in this House. I reject it and I am disappointed I did not get an opportunity to reject it more forcefully if they had had the courtesy to stay.

Senator Phil Prendergast

I join the Chairman in expressing disappointment at that performance. It was quite clear from the outset that they were not going to engage. It was clear that they were not going to listen and operate within the terms of reference. It was clear they came here to shout and make a grand statement, exiting without any meaningful debate. My colleague, Deputy Costello, tried to dilute their ire in their interpretation of events. I am very disappointed. We have heard many conflicting opinions but it has never ended in a farcical debate of this type.

Chairman

We did not even start our discussions.

Deputy Joe Costello

I am very disappointed that things worked out as they did because we could have done with the views of Cóir. The whole purpose of this committee is to see how we can move forward. Obviously they are not prepared to move forward on the Lisbon treaty. To declare that in some way this committee is engaged in an act of treason is outrageous. It appears from their attack that they had no intention of engaging with us. That is a shame. We gave them every opportunity.

They said at the outset that they had 2,000 volunteers. I think they have represented those volunteers very badly. I am sure they volunteered because they felt they were working for a worthwhile cause. If that is what the leadership of Cóir displays, it is certainly very poor. It is also letting down people who obviously gave their time during the Lisbon campaign for what they believed in. We gave them the opportunity to engage in meaningful discussion about the aftermath of the Lisbon treaty. They were not prepared to take that opportunity. It was clear from the beginning that they were here for argy bargy and then to walk out. It was extremely disappointing and has not done justice to anybody who might be a supporter of Cóir views.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

It is clear that this was an orchestrated media or PR exercise. This group, represented by Richard Greene and Ms Uí Bhriain, had no intention of engaging with the committee and came with an agenda to usurp the work the Chairman and committee have been doing. You handled it appropriately. This committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas has been working on a daily basis to find solutions to our problems relating to Ireland's place in the European Union. We have been doing that in a very constructive fashion with people from across the spectrum of the Lisbon debate. This is the only group to come here with the clear intention not to engage in any meaningful way.

I agree with Deputy Costello that Cóir represents the views of a certain percentage of society. Some of the views expressed by supporters of Cóir are valid. They have expressed legitimate concerns about the European Union, but I do not believe those who came here today represent the ordinary, decent and hard-working Irish people who had, and may still have, reservations. I am aghast at the attitude of these people who claim to represent 2,000 volunteers and have nothing constructive to say. They speak of treason. I wonder what their aspiration is. From the attitude displayed today, I would think it is nothing short of national sabotage.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I compliment the Chairman on the way he handled that outburst by our guests. I too am disappointed because, like everybody here, I worked hard on the Lisbon campaign. I sought to explain the document to the people I met and canvassed. I met very genuine people who worked on the "No" side of the campaign. Many of them represented Cóir. Unfortunately, we have not had an opportunity to tease through the false allegations put forward in their documentation and in the diatribe delivered in the course of the campaign. It is clear that their understanding of democracy is different from that of most people. They are not interested in engaging in debate. They made wild allegations which in my view cannot be substantiated. Today's outburst is a clear indication that there is nothing to support the arguments they put forward in the campaign, yet they influenced a number of people who believed in the one-liners they delivered. They have not been able to assist the committee in understanding why their people voted "No".

I am concerned that a group who talk about democracy are not here to answer simple questions. What constitution do they have? How did Mr. Greene become the leader of Cóir? What position does Ms Uí Bhriain hold, or Mr. Murphy? How did he take his role? What democratic process brought them to represent a group like Cóir? We do not know and we have had no opportunity to ask them what they stand for, what they believe in, where they come from or where they want us as a society to go in terms of our engagement with Europe. The Chairman was right to point out that this is part of our terms of reference.

I am particularly disappointed that we are not going to be able to advance the debate. If there has been any affront to democracy, it is that Mr. Murphy, Mr. Greene and Ms Uí Bhriain have not taken the opportunity to put forward the supporting argument they used in asking people to vote "No".

Chairman

Thank you all for your comments. If we compare the performance of the group we have just had before us with the performance of some other organisations which might share some similar points of view and look at the quality of the discussion we had with them a week ago, it is very clear that there was a missed opportunity this morning. I would have liked the opportunity to discuss ideas with them, such as the constitutional filter which different members have evaluated and raised. I would also have liked to discuss the role of the European Court of Justice and what role they believe it is playing, or not playing, in influencing the issues about which they feel strongly. Having said that, I will not allow this sub-committee, nor myself, to be accused by the witnesses of treason. I will not have that. While I was happy to let Mr. Greene interrupt me once in the hope of him suggesting he was going to make a meaningful contribution to this debate, it became clear to me that the witnesses had no intention of doing so. I will not tolerate the Houses of the Oireachtas being treated in that manner. I will not have it and I will not have the work of these people and my colleagues treated in such a manner.

As Chairman I have always put the participation of this sub-committee above my own role in it. I believe that is my job and I will not have that participation threatened by people who come in and purport to be reasonable. The stance taken by the witnesses was very disappointing. I will speak to my colleagues to see what more, if anything, needs to be done to respond to the claim of treason, beyond what we have done this morning.

I am sorry on my colleagues' behalf that members of the sub-committee came in here and wasted the morning and have not had an opportunity to put points to the witnesses which would have merited a good discussion. Unless anyone has a further comment to make we will adjourn.

Sitting suspended at 10.01 a.m. and resumed at 11.45 a.m.