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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jan 2009

Situation in Gaza: Discussion.

I welcome Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri, Delegate General of the Palestinian General Delegation. We had the pleasure of Dr. Ajjuri's company previously, when he was joined by his Israeli colleague. I compliment both of them on the manner in which they addressed the issues concerned on that day as that discussion was constructive and useful. Events have overtaken us in the meantime, unfortunately — events that have not been helpful.

The purpose of today's discussion is not to condemn anybody or review or rerun the events of the past few days and weeks. Like Dr. Ajjuri, the Israeli ambassador will shortly address the committee. I ask members of the committee to take a different perspective and focus on the issues. They should address the areas most likely to be common areas, where both Dr. Ajjuri and the Israeli ambassador recognise a positive contribution can be made with a view to achieving a lasting agreement and peace in the region.

I hope there will be less emphasis on the past. Both communities have a past and I am sure neither contributor wants to continue discussion in that regard because that will resolve nothing. The conclusion one must come to in a situation of this nature, as we know here, is that while one must acknowledge the events of history, one must leave history behind if we are to achieve progress. I will now call on Dr. Ajjuri.

On a point of order, is this part of the process initiated by the motion last week?

No, this was previously agreed, but it falls into the same area.

When people give testimony and comments are made on that testimony, that will form part of a file for that motion.

Absolutely.

Therefore, this discussion is not a formal part of the motion.

No, the call to meet the diplomatic representatives of both the Israeli and Palestinian sides arose and was agreed prior to the meeting. All discussions will be used in the context of whatever influence the committee has with regard to the issues involved.

I request that the representative and the ambassador be formally informed of the motion and asked whether they wish to make a contribution pursuant to it.

We can do so. However, we cannot spend a long time on this matter as there are other issues for the committee to consider.

I appreciate that.

This sequence of events was already in train before the motion was passed. It happens that this falls in line with the content of the motion. The two diplomatic representatives are coming before the committee and I suggest we allow them to proceed. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite Dr. Ajjuri to speak.

Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting me to brief the committee on the most immoral offensive on the Palestinians in Gaza since the occupation of Palestine or the Palestinian territories and to take the opportunity to convey through the committee the sincere appreciation of my people and leadership of Ireland, the friendly nation and its political leaders, legislators and Government for their continued support for the cause of peace in our region.

For 22 days prior to the Israeli declaration of a unilateral ceasefire on 18 January 2009, Israel, the occupying power, continued with impunity to unleash its military wrath on the defenceless population in the Gaza Strip. The immediate result of this offensive is over 1,300 dead and more than 5,450 injured, half of them women and children. The victims were not only trapped, traumatised and terrorised along with the 1.5 million inhabitants there, but they were deprived of the protection accorded to civilian persons under international law.

In the hope of avoiding this offensive and others before and after it, we, the Palestinians, have always appealed for the UN Security Council's engagement and called upon it to shoulder its responsibility. However, the lack of any favourable response from the council has encouraged Israel to ignore more than 30 of the UNSCR resolutions that require action by Israel alone. If Israel had taken the action required by the UN Security Council resolutions, then Israel would have removed Jewish settlements in the occupied territories; would have reversed its annexation of east Jerusalem and the Golan Heights; would have opened its nuclear facilities to the International Atomic Energy Agency inspection; and, most important, would have lived by now in peace and harmony side by side with the Palestinian state. On the other hand, Israel has arrogantly refused to dismantle the wall in the West Bank which was deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice in July 2004.

Ironically, and in spite of those violations of the international law, Israel, the occupying power, has continued to receive unconditional support and extraordinary immunity from Western leaders, in particular the Americans, who have exercised their veto power more than 41 times in favour of Israel. This, coupled with the latest decision of the EU to upgrade trading and political relations with Israel, has made Israel, in addition to being the fifth most powerful country in the world, the most arrogant, the most intransigent. Indeed, it is almost a licensed outlaw country. Israel has the right to protect its citizens like any other country but, as an occupying power, it is obliged under international law and the fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a signatory, to protect the civilian persons under its occupation and to desist from harming them.

Profiting from the international silence, Israel on 27 December 2008 launched operation Cast Lead, until now the bloodiest offensive by Israel against the Gazans since the occupation of Palestine. The proportionality of this offensive on Gaza is reflected not merely in the death toll, but also in the gruesome images of this most brutal aggression ever conducted by a democratic state, which are shown daily on our television screens. This proportionality, which transformed Gaza from a big prison into an abattoir, should induce all those with a sense of humanity to raise their voices, calling for the protection of all Palestinians under the Israeli occupation and the end of this occupation.

In the field, the Israeli attacking forces gave the Palestinians, who have nowhere to go in this militarily sealed off strip, five minutes to evacuate their homes before they bombarded them. According to the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, UNOCHA, in the week before last, the Israeli army ordered 100 Palestinian members of one large extended family to evacuate their homes in the Zeitoun neighbourhood in Gaza city and to go and shelter in a nearby house. The following day the army shelled that very house, killing 30 and injuring the rest of the family. It was only after four days that the Israeli army allowed paramedics to reach that house, only to find starving, horrified children next to their dead mothers.

Last week, the Israeli army shelled the UN headquarters and completely destroyed its warehouse. This was referred to by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in his concluding remarks. The Tuesday before last, the Israeli army shelled al-Fakhura UN school in Jabaliya to become the 17th UN school to be shelled by the Israeli army, in spite of prior information given to the Israeli army by the UN agency that all its schools were being used as shelters for civilians. It had also furnished the army with the GPS co-ordinates of all its installations. The shelling by the Israeli army of the aforementioned school resulted in the killing of 45 people and the injuring of more than 100 innocent civilians, many of them women and children. These attacks can only remind us of Qana 1 in 1996 and Qana 2 in 2006 in Lebanon, when the Israeli army shelled those two air raid shelters which resulted in the deaths of more than 150 Lebanese civilians. Furthermore, the humanitarian agencies and foreign doctors in Gaza confirmed the Israeli use of internationally illegal weapons, depleted uranium and white phosphorus.

The belief that the Israeli occupying power has in fact committed war crimes is also being reported by several human rights organisations which are now working on the ground in Gaza. In this regard, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and the Human Rights Council in its resolution of 12 January 2009 called for an independent investigation of crimes committed by Israel, the occupying power, in Gaza.

On the other hand, in Gaza, the civilian population continues to suffer from unlawful collective punishment measures being imposed by the occupying power. The situation before the Israeli offensive on Gaza was already dire due to Israel's 19-month inhumane siege, by which it deliberately obstructed humanitarian access, the movement of persons, including sick persons needing treatment, and the movement of all goods, including the most essential goods such as food, medical and fuel supplies. All aspects of life were severely impacted with poverty, hunger, disease and instability rising to alarming levels, particularly among the refugee population and especially among children who constitute almost 56% of the population. This exacerbated the humanitarian crisis to catastrophic proportions. In spite of all these facts, Israel once again continues to elude world sentiment by launching this offensive under the pretext of security and allegedly to stop the ineffective and primitive Hamas home-made rockets being thrown at them.

My leadership and I are totally against the use of the so-called Hamas rockets and still are committed to non-violent means to ending this struggle, yet one cannot ignore the fact that these rockets over the past eight years have killed 20 Israelis, while in retaliation for unfortunate loss of innocent Israeli lives, Israel has killed more than 3,500 people. I believe that these Israeli practices are not at all a reflection of the Jewish values but of the Zionist strategy of ethnic cleansing of Palestine since 1948. Ulan Pappe, the renowned Israeli historian and chair in the department of history at the University of Exeter in the UK, argues in his latest piece: "We have to try and explain not only to the world but also to the Israelis themselves, that Zionism is an ideology that endorses ethnic cleansing, occupation and now massive massacres". Gedion Levy, an Israeli political analyst, writing in the Israeli Haaretz newspaper, commented on earlier Israeli offensives in Gaza as follows: “A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization”.

The core of my message to members of the committee, as legislators, is to look beyond the immediate Israeli atrocity and establish the real, undeclared objectives behind this Israeli offensive. Members should bear in mind the following. The Israeli media reported that with every shell dropped on Gaza the popularity of the Israeli Minister of Defence, Mr. Barak, and the Foreign Affairs Minister, Ms Livni, rises. Poll ratings in Israel show that Mr. Barak's party jumped from nine seats to 17 and Ms Livni who was very much behind is now neck and neck with Mr. Netanyahu in the campaign for next month's scheduled Israeli election. Israel lost its power of deterrence against the neighbouring population in Lebanon in 2006 and needs to restore it, in order to impose unilateral humiliating agreements on its neighbours including the Palestinians. The indiscriminate nature of the Israeli offensive on Gaza and the great losses prove that the real targets of the Israelis are not extremists or their weapons, but the will and resolve of the Palestinians to achieve the aforementioned goals.

The shameful and unacceptable silence of world leaders is, to a certain extent, responsible for the pain the inhabitants of the Holy Land, Israelis and Palestinians alike, have endured for decades. This silence blatantly reflects the leaders' impotence and failure to face the intransigence and irresponsibility of the Israeli political leadership. Since the early 1990s, world leaders have distanced themselves from attempting to resolve the crisis and have called on both sides to settle their differences on their own, as if this were a fight between equal contenders rather than a struggle between a powerful and ruthless occupying power and the people whose territory is occupied. This is in spite of the fact that these leaders know very well that the Israeli-Palestinian struggle constitutes a real threat to world peace and stability.

Since the Madrid conference of 1991, the best the Israelis and Palestinians could have achieved through bilateral negotiations was the Oslo agreement. However, I believe that agreement reflected the political decency of those who designed and signed it, yet its guarantors — the world leaders — know that it has been shelved since the assassination of its Israeli instigator, the late brave Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

In August 2005 Israel redeployed its forces from the Gaza Strip and declared it a "non-occupied Palestinian territory", while in fact retaining its grip on all the border crossings, the sky and the sea of Gaza. Furthermore Israel insisted on conducting this step unilaterally and without consultation with the Palestinian Authority, thus depriving it of any strategic value as a lasting peace initiative. Instead Gaza has become a virtual prison, cut off completely from the world, with massive economic consequences amounting to a humanitarian disaster. These conditions created a suitable environment for inter-Palestinian factional fighting. I, for one, believe that the entire sequence of events in Gaza since that redeployment was anticipated by the planner of that move, Ariel Sharon. In reality, that unilateral step allowed Mr. Sharon to achieve a significant demographic gain and evade obligations towards a bilateral peace agreement, while allowing Israel to define the borders of any future Palestinian entity on Israel's terms.

Six months before 19 December 2008, Egypt brokered a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. The first four months marked the most peaceful period for years between Gaza and Israel. Had Israel been serious regarding its peaceful intentions, one would have expected it to benefit from that lull by intensifying its peace negotiations with its moderate Palestinian interlocutor, President Abbas, and could have transformed President Bush's vision of a two-state solution into a reality. What happened is the direct opposite. Israel never respected the terms of the ceasefire by not lifting the siege and not opening the border crossings. On the contrary, profiting from the world's concentration on the American elections, Israel launched a cross-border raid on 4 November 2008 — the same day as the American elections — deliberately killing six Palestinians. In addition there is the other disastrous story of the Israeli daily incursions into the West Bank, killing, arresting and injuring Palestinian activists, and the Israeli expansion of its illegal settlements and the construction of the wall.

These provocative Israeli practices were the actual reasons behind the non-renewal of the Egyptian brokered ceasefire and the launch of this offensive after two years of military training. These Israeli practices have turned the Annapolis process of 27 November 2007 from an historic opportunity to end the occupation into yet another missed opportunity. The same fate met the Oslo process of 1993 and the Arab initiative of 2002. Mr. Sharon referred to the Oslo process as "national suicide" and responded to the Arab initiative by saying that "It is not worth the ink it was written with". Consequently, since the Oslo process, bilateral Israeli-Palestinian negotiations have achieved little tangible progress because of Israel's bullying tactics and its determination to impose its terms unilaterally on us and on the rest of the region. I do not know whether this is a secret. The majority of the Israeli political leaders believe that the Occupied Territories are liberated Jewish lands and at best disputed territory.

I conclude by emphasising that the rules of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle need to be changed. Unless pressure is exerted on Israel I very much doubt that the current bilateral negotiations will be able to provide us with what we — both Israelis and Palestinians in the Holy Land — badly need, which is peace and security.

We should be guided by the aforementioned narrative and the European vision on national interests and foreign policy, as expressed by the EU High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy, Mr. Solana, who stated "foreign policy which is not informed by our values is neither possible nor acceptable". I call on the EU member states through members of the committee, as European legislators, to reconsider the EU decision to upgrade its relations with Israel until such time as Israel abides by international and human rights law and allows the Palestinian people to enjoy the same neighbourly relations with the EU as other nations in the region; and support the resurrection of the viable contiguous sovereign Palestinian state based on United Nations resolutions as a legitimate answer to the Palestinian question, exactly as Europe did 61 years ago when it supported the resurrection of Israel as an answer to the Jewish question.

I thank the Chairman for giving me this great chance to brief the committee on the current circumstances in our region. I would be more than happy to answer any questions should members have any.

I thank Dr. Ajjuri.

I welcome Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri, the delegate general of the Palestinian General Delegation. He has submitted a very comprehensive and accurate document on the recent conflict and the history of the region. We have to move on. I remind the Palestinian representative that there is disunity between Hamas and Fatah. Mahmoud Abbas has been very progressive. He has been the voice of the Palestinian people. He will negotiate and discuss with all elements to create a two-state solution. That must be a fundamental issue at this stage.

Hamas has inflicted genuine damage on the region. However, the response has not been in proportion to the effect of the rockets. There had been provocation over a long period of time. It gave the Israelis an excuse to move in and inflict massive damage. The butchery of so many women and children in that region cries out for revenge. There is no question about it — they have caused continuous conflict in that region. Those families will never forgive what has been done to them. Their children's children will continue the struggle. That is what creates the situation. Hamas must be brought into the circle. It must be spoken to. Hamas is being used by Iran and Syria to supply weapons to the region. That must be fully discussed. There is no reason progress cannot be made with the general efforts in respect of the port and airport in the Gaza Strip. Quite frankly, I do not believe Israel wants a two-state solution. It wants a one-state solution in the region. It is opposed in the region. It wants to continue in that way. We are in favour of a two-state solution. Most reasonable Palestinians are also in favour of that. It will be difficult for the Palestinian region to succeed economically. That will never happen if Palestine cannot work with and support its neighbours in an atmosphere of goodwill.

I do not want to delay the meeting. We have discussed this issue with the Minister, Deputy Martin, who has been even-handed, fair and reasoned in this regard. I support his views. He will attend next week's meeting of the EU Ministers. He will point out that the negotiations on Israel's trade relations with the Union must be reviewed in light of the terrible conflict that happened in the region over 22 days. The world stood idly by when the conflict was taking place. No states have spoken out in favour of, or provided physical support to, the Palestinian cause. The Palestinians were on their own when they were bombarded and attacked by superior forces. As I said, trade is vital. People should examine their shopping trolleys. Every time they buy Israeli products in their supermarkets, they help to provide bullets and bombs to destroy the Palestinian state. That is the reality. We have to discuss facts and figures.

I hope the inauguration of the new US President, Mr. Obama, in an hour's time and the subsequent appointment of Hillary Clinton as the US Secretary of State will lead to change. The Israeli authorities moved quickly in advance of the coming to power of the new Administration in the United States. The Bush Administration stood idly by in this regard. After eight years in power, it was only in the last 12 months that it took any interest in this region. The only good thing Mr. Bush said was that he supports a two-state solution. It is likely that the ambassador will attend a further Oireachtas committee meeting on 3 February, in the presence of representatives of the Friends of Palestine organisation, which is to be reactivated. It is a long struggle and debate. The people of Palestine are oppressed. We need to show solidarity with them. Hamas will have to be spoken to. One cannot ignore the strength of Hamas, which has been increased by the bombardment of the Gaza Strip. Hamas cannot be ignored. There will have to be indirect negotiations with Hamas if a two-state solution is to be achieved.

I remind members that there will be a division in the Dáil shortly. We will adjourn temporarily after Deputy Breen has spoken.

Will I have time?

The Deputy can speak for a couple of minutes. We will see how it goes.

I welcome the representative of Palestine, Mr. Ajjuri. I met him a few months ago, before the conflict started at the end of December. I agree that the world has stood idly by over the last 12 months. Other matters such as the conflict between Russia and Georgia and the election of a new US President took centre stage. Developments in Palestine were ignored, unfortunately. This is a very complex issue.

I sympathise with Mr. Ajjuri on the deaths of many of his fellow citizens. Innocent people are always caught up in conflicts, unfortunately. Almost 1,300 people have been killed in the most recent conflict, which should never have taken place. It is obvious that a humanitarian crisis is developing in Gaza. Our priority should be the 80% of people in the region who are unable to cope or look after themselves. Quite rightly, the UN has a role in investigating why this conflict took place. Were the rules of conflict adhered to? If this were a simpler issue, it would have been solved over the years by Tony Blair or others. As Senator Leyden has said, a golden opportunity is being presented by the election of a new President in the United States. We cannot forget the events of the last 18 days. Television pictures will always remind us of the killings of innocent people, 40% of whom were women or children, which is sad.

I am delighted that a representative of Palestine is present at today's meeting. He presented a comprehensive report to us. We will have an opportunity to meet the Israeli ambassador at a future date. We would like to continue the discussions at this forum. An emergency motion on this issue will be considered by the Council of Europe next week, at a meeting to be attended by Senator Leyden. I intend to speak on the matter at the meeting, at which representatives of Palestine will also be present. I will conclude on that note, as I am caught for time. We will discuss this matter again.

Sitting suspended at 4.10 p.m. and resumed at 4.20 p.m.

We will resume our deliberations with Deputy Pat Breen who was in possession.

The Delegate General, Dr. Ajjuri, has presented a comprehensive document which the joint committee should explore. It will also be debated in the Council of Europe in Strasbourg next week. The more this issue is debated in different institutions, the greater will be the emphasis placed on it.

As I indicated, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict had been forgotten about until recently. I attended a tripartite forum in Rhodes, Greece, with representatives of the PLO and Israeli Knesset. The only way to solve the problem is to learn from the conflict in Northern Ireland. We have a golden opportunity to make progress.

I am not sure about the claim that Israel is the fifth most powerful country in the world.

Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri

That is a matter of record.

I do not accept that is the case. Some of the other contenders would be upset by the idea. While it is not a major issue, it is not factually correct.

Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri

It is on record.

I do not accept that. The United States, Japan, Germany——

Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri

I refer to military capacity.

Some of the countries to which I have referred take great pride in their military prowess.

Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri

Japan is not such a country.

What is the likelihood of Hamas recognising Israel? We need to bring about some type of peace, even if it is temporary in nature, as we had until the most recent outbreak of violence. The removal of the wall is correctly an objective. However, before the wall was built suicide bombings occurred daily. One cannot have one without the other or vice versa. We need to examine this issue and the influence of Iran in the region.

Dr. Ajjuri made a progressive contribution at a previous meeting of the joint committee. I emphasise again to both the Israelis and Palestinians that, while we are one step removed from developments in the Middle East, we have some experience in this area. This reminds me of an occasion when one of my colleagues from the province of Ulster set about explaining to me that the rest of this country did not understand the problems in Northern Ireland. Interestingly, however, it was former President Bill Clinton and former Prime Minister Tony Blair who exerted the greatest influence on those problems. My point is that it is important that both sides recognise that the positive influence of outsiders can only succeed if the protagonists show willingness.

The events I have observed in recent weeks have not been helpful to achieving a peaceful and satisfactory outcome. We must not rerun the history of the problem. People on both sides have been victims. It is important that we address the issue in a positive manner with a view to exerting whatever positive influence we can to bring about a scenario in which talks can take place which will ultimately lead to a positive and, I hope, permanent outcome.

Did Egypt do enough in the past 18 days to end the conflict, particularly given that it has a border with Gaza? What role will President Mubarak have in the new beginning to which Dr. Ajjuri referred? The Delegate General's statement that new rules need to be put in place if peace is to be achieved for the Israelis and Palestinians in the Holy Land is important. Peace and security are badly needed.

Dr. Hikmat Ajjuri

A number of interesting points have been raised. Senator Leyden referred to Hamas and Fatah, while the Chairman raised points other members would perhaps have liked to raise. The role of Egypt, to which Deputy Breen alluded, is also an important issue.

Hamas and Fatah were about to cross the border and make things better than previously. In October 2007 or thereabouts, Egypt called on all the Palestinian factions to meet. The factions discussed the issue and were just about to reach an agreement. On the eve of the meeting between Fatah, Hamas and the rest of the factions, which was to be held in Egypt, Hamas decided not to attend for various reasons. We believe the main reason for its last minute decision was pressure from outsiders. While members should not pressure me to mention names, we know Hamas appears to respond favourably to pressure from regional powers.

This issue was discussed thoroughly at a summit held in Kuwait yesterday. King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia managed to bring the rivals around his dining table. Some differences emerged between certain Arab countries but it appears that we managed to sort out 70% or 80% of them. Every party pulls the rug towards himself which does not help us. Had the issue of the internal Palestinian problem been left to the Palestinians alone, we would have sorted out the problem ages ago.

The issue of recognition of Israel by Hamas has been used as a pretext and is a hot issue all over the place. Hamas is an elected Palestinian faction which has won the majority of our Legislative Council seats. It is just one of many Palestinian factions. On the other side of the table, few political parties in Israel explicitly recognise our right to exist. Avigdor Lieberman of the Yisrael Beiteinu Party called on Israel to nuke Gaza two days ago. His party is the fourth largest in Israel. Former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is expected to become the next Prime Minister of Israel, once told the Associated Press that "a Palestinian state must never be established and Yasser Arafat must be overthrown."

The best outcome the Palestinians and Israelis have achieved to date was the Oslo agreement which has since been shelved. Many Israelis and Palestinians may not share that view. Another former Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, considered the agreement to be national suicide. Palestinians regarded it as a humiliation which gave us very little. It was only just words because, according to the Oslo Accords, a Palestinian state should have been established in May 1999. However, the moment Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, it has been a case of bombing, shelling and putting people into a coma. Hamas accepted at one stage the handing of responsibility for negotiations and recognition to the PLO and, in particular, President Abbas. It indirectly accepted or recognised, by handing the negotiations to Abbas, that whatever Abbas agreed with the Israelis would be put to the Palestinians in a referendum for ratification. Indirectly it has given recognition but it would not accept this for a fact.

Former Prime Minister Haniyeh was quoted as having told the BBC that Hamas would accept a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders. However, one must ask the difference between us and Hamas. We have decided, as representatives of the mainstream, moderate view, to adopt negotiations as a strategy and as our only means of sorting out the issue. However, Hamas does not trust the Israelis because it noted our experience with the Israelis. We gave the Israelis everything they asked us for. In 1988, four or five years before the Oslo accords, the highest legislative body, the Palestinian National Council, recognised the two-state solution. We have ratified the PLO charter to recognise the State of Israel based on pre-1967 borders. What did we get in return but intifada after intifada after operations such as Operation Defensive Shield?

I will give another example. We have managed to convince all the Arabs and Muslims to come on board. Perhaps the members of the committee have heard about the Arab initiative. The Arab initiative refers explicitly to full recognition and normalisation and calls not only on the 22 Arab League states but also the 57 Muslim states to recognise the State of Israel on its pulling out from the territories it has taken by force since the agreement on the 1967 borders and to find an agreeable solution to the refugee question. What more do we need to give the Israelis?

When we went to Annapolis on 27 November 2007, Mr. Abbas invited 16 Arab countries just to reassure the Israelis that the Arabs are on board with us. We have agreed on many things. We have agreed with the Americans and the Israelis that we should implement straightaway what they called at the time the roadmap. The moment we landed in the region we discovered that the Israelis threw everything behind their shoulders. They approved the expansion of settlements and decided to carry on with the construction of the wall. They raised the number of checkpoints from 600 to 680. Nobody knows the humiliation the Palestinians face every day at these checkpoints.

One might believe the wall has reduced the number of suicide bombers. I doubt this very much. It is not the wall that stopped the suicide bombing but the political activity on our side. We do not mind if the Israelis build 2 million walls but they should build them on their territories, not on occupied territory. That is why it has been deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice. If we do not accept the verdict of that court, what do we have to accept? The Israelis ignore it, as usual.

The Egyptian role is very important. The Egyptians are the most serious and sincere party in the region on the issue of the Rafah border crossing. They opened the crossing from day 1 of the conflict to allow all humanitarian aid, and even paramedics and medical staff, to enter Gaza. Let me outline the problem with Hamas and the Rafah crossing. In his speech yesterday, Mr. Mubarak said it was unfair that we condensed the whole Palestinian issue into Gaza, that of Gaza into border crossings and that of the border crossings into Rafah. There are seven border crossings. There are six between Gaza and Israel and one between Gaza and Egypt. What scares us is the potential for Israel to kill the dream of creating a contiguous Palestinian state. Gaza comprises 6% of the Occupied Territories and is an integral part of the Palestinian territories. When Sharon decided to pull out or deploy unilaterally, he cut off Gaza from the West Bank. The strategic depth of Gaza lies in the West Bank. Israel wants Egypt to shoulder responsibility for Gaza again.

John Bolton, who is very close to the Zionist school, wrote a very interesting article in the The Washington Post ten days ago. He is calling for a solution to the issue by saying there should only be three states, namely, Egypt, Jordan and Israel. This is very serious and this is what the Israelis want. They just want to throw Gaza back to Egypt and what is left of the West Bank to Jordan. We should not let them get away with this. That is why we are calling on the members of this committee, as legislators, to use their influence, either through their colleagues in Europe or through the Irish Government, not to let Israel get away with this or dictate unilaterally what should occur in the region. Should there be no Palestinian state, there will not be peace in the region. We must make links. We do not want to give people like Osama bin Laden the chance to speak on our behalf but when Mr. Bolton uses such rhetoric and expresses such sentiments, we realise we have created more than 100 Osama bin Ladens. There is not only one Osama bin Laden, but many. The only solution to the conflict in the region that will have a positive impact on world peace is the creation of a Palestinian state. I am sure the members will agree with me. Unless we do so, I am sorry to state there will be no peace in the region and no peace anywhere.

I agree with the Chairman on the future. I heard President Sarkozy call today for a global summit, to be held soon after the meeting mentioned earlier by the Minister. The European Foreign Affairs Ministers are meeting in Egypt next month. Mr. Sarkozy is calling for another summit thereafter. Everybody is now talking about 2009. I hope it will not be another Bush dream and just fade away without being realised.

We need the support of the committee and need its members to do whatever they can for us. I am very lucky to be in a country such as Ireland. I know how much it is doing for the cause of peace and that it cares. It is not because it is biased in favour of the Palestinians but I am sure the Irish are biased in favour of their values, which we appreciate. I hope what I propose will become reality soon. I appreciate very much that the members are not bowing to the pressure from the Israelis, be it the Israeli ambassador or Israeli Ministers. Whoever cares for Israel should tell it when it is doing something wrong. I hope that we all agree that when Israel does something wrong we should not let it get away with it. Qana 1 happened and then Qana 2, and Gaza is another Qana. I do not know if the members know about Qana. People were sheltering there but the town was shelled, which was too much. Israel has got away with much in this conflict. The time has come where we must tell Israel that such actions are wrong.

As I stated in my presentation, to leave us at the mercy of Israeli bullying tactics will not achieve anything. Since 1993 we have been negotiating for the sake of negotiations. Nothing tangible has come out of all of these negotiations. To revitalise these negotiations, we must come from the UN, which is meant to cater for the safety and security of the world, with a resolution based on Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter. All previous resolutions have been based on Chapter VI and are not worth the hassle or the energy we put into them. The last UN Security Council Resolution 1860 was ignored by Hamas and Israel because it had no force, no teeth. We need a resolution from the UN with some teeth to be implemented like those dealing with Iraq, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia.

Iran is part of the region and has a good relationship with Hamas. I cannot say more than that.

I thank Dr. Ajjuri for his submission which has been useful and constructive. The committee will be meeting with his counterpart, the Israeli ambassador, shortly and will be asking him similar probing questions. The committee will try to be positive, progressive and influential in a meaningful way. We believe the fundamental issue in situations such as this is that each side recognises each other's position. They do not have to agree with it but must recognise it. This is a basic fundamental in any negotiations, particularly in war. Otherwise, nothing comes about.

Bill Clinton, when he was US President, spent much time trying to bring about a solution to the Middle East situation. Even though he was influential in bringing about peace in this country, it must be remembered even he did not succeed in the Middle East. It is not a simple issue that will go away overnight.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.45 p.m. and adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 27 January 2009.
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