Item No. 1 is a discussion on current developments in Ukraine, European integration, energy security, the free trade area and bilateral relations with Ireland. Our special guest is the Ukrainian ambassador, His Excellency Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi, who is very welcome.
Current Developments in Ukraine: Discussion with Ukrainian Ambassador.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
Thank you.
Apologies have been received from Deputies Lucinda Creighton and Joanna Tuffy and Senator Feargal Quinn.
Apologies have also been received from Deputy Billy Timmins.
I welcome the ambassador who joins us to discuss the current developments in the Ukraine as well as a Ukrainian perspective on European integration, energy security, the free trade area and bilateral relations with Ireland.
I remind the witness that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such way as to make him or her identifiable.
I invite the ambassador to make his presentation. The normal procedure is that the visiting guest speaks for ten or 12 minutes and there is a question and answer session thereafter.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
I thank the honourable Chairman and honourable members of the joint committee.
First, I congratulate you on Ireland's success in the referendum in favour of the Lisbon treaty. The Irish people have demonstrated the will to support and further develop the unity of Europe. This success was possible because of the unprecedented unanimity of all political parties in Ireland to stand for a strong and united Europe.
I thank the honourable Chairman and honourable members of the joint committee for the invitation and for this unique opportunity to present information on current developments in Ukraine and on the vision of its future perspectives.
This year marks the 18th anniversary of the independent Ukraine. The independence of our country had a major impact on democratic developments on the European continent. During this period, Ukraine has gone through many changes. The most significant was our transition from being a part of the totalitarian Soviet empire to an independent democratic state with a market economy.
Ukraine is the main transit route of Russian gas to Europe, which gets a quarter of its gas from Russia. As members of the committee may be aware, Ukraine and the EU launched the programme to upgrade the Ukrainian gas transmission system to high international standards. We consider this project as a step towards integration of the Ukrainian energy system into the common European system and the speediest consent of the EU institutions on the accession of Ukraine into the EU common energy area. After the January gas crisis with Russia, the new long-term Ukraine-Russia gas agreement was signed to guarantee the supply of gas for Ukraine and European countries. We confirm our strong commitment to its implementation.
Ukraine is consistent in supporting the development of pragmatic economic relations with Russia, including those in the energy sector. We are confident that future energy security in Europe will be established by implementation of international agreements in this sphere by all parties, including Russia, which has not yet ratified the Energy Charter Treaty signed by this State. In this connection Ukraine would welcome the EU position to encourage Russia to ratify the charter or to include provisions of this international document in a new EU-Russia enhanced co-operation agreement.
As a part of the energy security issue, Ukraine pays great attention to adjusting its transit potential. The current Ukrainian Odessa-Brody oil pipeline will be extended to the Polish cities of Plotsk and Gdansk to transfer Caspian oil from Azerbaijan to Ukraine and Europe. Ukraine has agreed the oil transfer with Azerbaijan. In accordance with the terms of the project presented to the experts of the European Commission on 14 October, the transit of Azerbaijan oil will start with 5 million tonnes to 10 million tonnes a year, with future prospective capacity of the pipeline up to 40 million tonnes. For this purpose, the project New Sarmatia has been initiated, in which Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia and Azerbaijan have agreed to participate.
Integration into the European Union has been and is among Ukraine's main foreign policy objectives since its independence. This course of action has become a true national idea which unites all leading political forces in Ukraine. Since early 2007 Ukraine has been negotiating an association agreement with the European Union. We consider this document an important step towards future accession. The association agreement will provide for the creation of a free trade area between Ukraine and the Union. In conformity with last year's accession to the World Trade Organisation, the free trade area will facilitate further integration of the Ukrainian economy into the European market, as well as the world economy. Fruitful political dialogue with the Union is complemented by active development of bilateral trade. Last year its volume exceeded $60 billion and accounted for 32% of Ukraine's foreign trade, which ranks the Union as the top trading partner of Ukraine.
Ukraine's aspirations on European accession are supported by examples in our neighbouring eastern European countries that showed fast progress in achieving high standards of living with EU membership. Another impressive experience of EU membership is the Irish experience. The Irish experience of 36 years of EU membership strongly supports Ukraine's aspirations on European integration. The policy of acquiring EU membership — no matter how difficult and sometimes distant it might seem — is supported by 60% to 70% of Ukrainians. We expect the association agreement will open the road to the fully fledged EU membership.
Ukraine has launched a dialogue with the European Union on visa liberalisation following conclusion of the agreement on visa facilitation in 2007. As a result, we expect that next year the criteria for introducing a visa-free regime for Ukrainian nationals will be elaborated on by the EU side. We hope to have a visa-free regime for Ukrainians by 2012 when we co-host the European soccer championships with Poland.
Ukraine values its relations with the European Union as a whole and the neighbouring EU member states, in particular. We consider them as strategically important to the security and further development of Ukraine as an independent and democratic state. We consider the eastern partnership initiative developed by Poland and Sweden as an important instrument of support by the Union of reforms in Ukraine that will help our state to further develop up to the standards of the Union and help to make accession easier.
We understand Ireland is a neutral state but I wish to speak about collective security issues. Ukraine pays great attention to ensuring its national security through integration into European and Euro-Atlantic collective security systems. In April 2008 the Bucharest Summit declared that Ukraine would become a member of the alliance. Recent approval by the Ukrainian President, Viktor Yushchenko, of the first annual national programme for Ukraine's NATO membership has become an important new step in the achievement of our Euro-Atlantic aspirations. Ukraine's aspiration to accede to the alliance is not directed against Russia in any way; the ultimate decision on NATO membership is to be taken following a nationwide referendum.
Relations with our largest neighbour, Russia, remain the priority of Ukraine's foreign policy. Since 1991 when Ukraine and Russia became sovereign states, our relations have gone through different stages. I could compare current Ukraine-Russia relations with the experience of every country that has become independent after being part of an empire. Apart from the issues of energy security and NATO membership, there are a number of questions to be resolved. One of these concerns the location of the Russian Black Sea fleet in the Ukrainian region of Crimea. Ukraine keeps faith with its international contractual obligations on the deployment of the Russian Black Sea fleet on its territory until 28 May 2017 and honours fully the provisions of the corresponding framework treaties of 1997. The Ukrainian side has committed to build relations with Russia on the basis of mutual respect, mutual benefit and pragmatism. Nevertheless, Ukraine wishes to determine and conduct its internal and foreign policy, including on issues such as EU and NATO membership. We would not admit to being viewed as an area of priority interest of any foreign country.
Ukraine pays great attention to developing its relations with Ireland as a traditionally friendly country and a successful member of the European Union. In 2003 Ukraine opened an embassy in Dublin that allowed us to improve communications between both sides. In this connection, the Ukrainian side would welcome the establishment of an Irish Embassy in Kiev on the basis of reciprocity.
I stress the existence of mutual understanding on all issues of bilateral relations. We very much appreciate Ireland's support for Ukraine's aspirations to join the European Union, in particular its practical aspect. Members will be aware that Ireland supports the UN programme to reform the Ukrainian civil service in accordance with European standards. We would welcome Ireland's participation in other similar projects with our state.
There are two issues of the highest priority. One is to finalise the negotiations on a double taxation agreement that is regarded by both sides as an important step in further improving bilateral economic relations and trade. The other issue that is of vital importance for Ukrainians is that of visa facilitation. In 2007 Ukraine signed an agreement with the European Union which includes a number of provisions to facilitate the issue of visas to Ukrainians. The joint Ukraine-EU declaration on the agreement foresees the possible conclusion of a similar agreement between Ukraine and Ireland. Taking into account the introduction in 2005 of a visa-free regime for Irish citizens and other EU nationals while travelling to Ukraine, we expect the Irish side will move towards visa liberalisation for Ukrainian nationals. The Ukrainian side is ready to negotiate on this issue.
Ukraine is one of the biggest countries in Europe, with a sound industrial base, rich farmlands, a highly trained labour force and an advanced education system. It has been following the path of creating a competitive, market-oriented economic environment. Before the beginning of the global financial crisis, the Ukrainian economy had been experiencing very robust annual growth of 8% to 10%. Ukraine had become one of the world's leading exporters of grain, vegetable oils and metal products. Rapidly growing foreign direct investment had reached almost $40 billion in 2008. In 2008 Ukraine joined the World Trade Organisation. Notwithstanding the effect of the global economic crisis which caused a reduction in Ukraine's GDP, our economy, in particular the metallurgical and chemical sectors, is gradually rebounding. We hope the world economic system will successfully pass this test and come out of it even stronger and better equipped to deal with new challenges. Ukraine proceeds from the fundamental economic principle upheld at the G20 summit that common remedies and approaches have to be worked out to combat this common problem.
I welcome efforts of the international community to establish a set of co-ordinated policies that would be to the benefit of us all. The Ukrainian authorities are trying to use a rather broad menu of anti-crisis measures that include cutting unproductive budgetary spending, a programme of sanitation and recapitalisation of banks, besides recapitalisation of systemic banks by the central bank. Most of the foreign parent banks and firms pledged to support their branches in the Ukraine, creating a stabilisation fund and a deposit insurance fund. The authorities are also providing support for infrastructure and investment projects and decreasing interest rates for small and medium-size business. Our inter action with the IFOs is of special importance for the stabilisation on the financial market. Our current budget deficit is under 3% and the state debt is at 11% of GDP.
There are ample opportunities for investment in the Ukraine. Among the most profitable fields are the high-tech sector, air and space industries, mechanical engineering, light industry, and agriculture — the Ukraine has almost 30 per cent of the world's black soil and holds fifth place in the world's grain export. Currently, the Ukraine, together with Poland, is getting ready to host the 2012 European Football Championship, Euro 2012. Preparations for this exceptional event entail implementation of numerous projects such as building new roads, stadiums, hotels and other elements of infrastructure, which create unique opportunities for large-scale investment.
Notwithstanding that, to an outside observer political life in the Ukraine in the past five years may look somewhat turbulent or even tumultuous, including heated discussions on the tactics and pace of reforms. I have no doubt that the Orange revolution and ensuing period have brought about a number of fundamental and irreversible changes in Ukrainian society. First and foremost, the Ukraine has evolved into a true democracy, being the only country among the Soviet successor states and non-member of the EU ranked as free by Freedom House and other international human rights NGOs. It should be acknowledged, however, that the Ukraine is yet to cover a substantial distance on the way to truly mature democracy. Major tasks are lying in the fields of judicial reform, including updating active codes of law, ensuring genuine independence and efficiency of the Judiciary, adopting new election law, combating corruption, reforming the civil service and improving the system of governance at all levels.
To a very great extent, present political difficulties have been caused by the deficiencies of the latest changes to the current constitution. The urgency of constitutional reform is recognised by all political parties. The latest constitutional draft has been proposed by the President and is guided by the best practices in leading democracies, envisaging devolution of power to the regions based upon the principle of subsidiarity, and clear delineation of the authority between the president and the coalition government. One thing is clear: irrespective of the temperature of the political discussions in the Ukraine, all decisions will be taken in conformity with existing legal norms and democratic principles. I firmly believe that a culture of a political compromise that we have managed to create here since 1991 will also be a positive factor.
The last century has been a time of the greatest hardships and the greatest triumph. Speaking about the losses, we first and foremost remember the famine-genocide of 1932-33, when up to 10 million Ukrainians were deliberately starved to death by Stalin and his regime. We know that Ireland had a similar experience during the Great Famine. That is the reason the Ukrainian side would highly appreciate if the Irish Parliament would join the legislative bodies of a number of the EU member states in recognising the Holodomor as an act of genocide. This is an issue of great importance for Ukrainians.
Honourable Chairman and honourable members of the joint committee, I convey greetings from Mr. Borys Tarasuyk, the Chairman of the European integration committee of the Verkhovna Rada, the Parliament of the Ukraine, and his colleagues who are members of the respective committee of the Ukrainian parliament. We are confident that closer co-operation between the legislative bodies of our states and their European affairs committees in particular will be of benefit to the people of our friendly countries.
Mr. Tarasyuk, who is also a co-chairman of the joint committee on the parliamentary co-operation between the Ukraine and the EU, informed me a couple of hours ago that the working body that consists of the members of the Ukrainian Parliament and the European parliament held a meeting in Kiev. As a result of the meeting, which is a happy coincidence with our meeting here in Dublin, the said committee has adopted a number of recommendations on intensifying the process of integration of the Ukraine into the EU institutions.
I hope my presentation will help the honourable members of the joint committee to have a better understanding of present day Ukraine. I consider the opportunity to appear before the joint committee as a gesture of support for Ukrainian aspirations to join the EU. I am convinced that by our joint efforts, Europe will be more prosperous, which will benefit our people.
I thank His Excellency Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi.
I welcome the ambassador of the Ukraine, His Excellency Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi. It is important that ambassadors from various countries appear before the joint committee.
I take the opportunity to congratulate His Excellency on the performance of a woman from the Ukraine who was first past the post in the Dublin City Marathon. The ambassador is already on a winner.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
I thank the Deputy.
The Ukraine is a young democracy but has had an embassy in Dublin since 1993. I had the pleasure of meeting the president of the Ukraine in Strasbourg at the Council of Europe meeting. Deputy Noel Treacy, the then Minister of State, also met President Viktor Yushchenko in Shannon Airport. A picture of that meeting featured in the local Clare newspaper.
Very important elections will take place on 17 January 2010, with three high profile candidates standing for election, President Yushchenko, Mrs. Yulia Tymoshenko and the former prime minister, Mr. Viktor Yanukovych. I understand that Mr. Yanukovych is doing extremely well in the opinion polls and if the trend continues in that direction, it is possible that there will be major changes in the Ukraine, and in its relationship with Russia in the new year. Should Mr. Yanukovych win the presidential elections in January how would that affect the relationship of the Ukraine with Europe? President Yushchenko is very pro-Europe and enjoys a very good relationship with all western leaders.
Will His Excellency address the political situation, the lead-up to the elections and how a change of regime could affect the Ukraine's aspiration to join the European Union?
Second, the gas dispute dominated the headlines last year and affected many countries in Europe. The fact that the Ukraine is so dependent on Russian oil supplies going through its territory on the way to Europe will give rise to further disputes. Will the Ukraine's bid to join NATO, which it is anxious to do — but which Russia would like to stop — be affected? Will Mr. Bazylevskyi elaborate on how the recession has affected the Ukraine?
I welcome His Excellency, Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi, and I am delighted that he is based in Ireland. I congratulate him and his Government on the tremendous success achieved in the past 18 years. I am delighted Ireland has bilateral arrangements with Ukraine and that Aer Rianta, the Quinn Group and CRH have significant investments in the country. We have a link with the people of Ukraine. I acknowledge that it would be welcome if an Irish Embassy were established. In these difficult economic times it may not be possible to do so, but as trade increases and links are strengthened, it may become a reality
The gas pipeline from Russia is a very sensitive issue and the recent disruption caused great difficulties. I understand the ambassador said Ukraine was looking at bringing gas from Azerbaijan through Ukraine.
The aspiration of Ukraine to join the European Union will be considered favourably by the Union and I think Ireland will be supportive.
Why is Ukraine pursuing its application to join NATO? Ireland is not a member and has no intention of seeking to become one but yet is a member of the European Union. Membership of NATO is not a prerequisite for joining the Union. Does the ambassador not think such a step would be provocative to its Russian neighbours? What status has the Crimea vis-à-vis Ukraine and Russia?
I welcome His Excellency, Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi. I concur with Deputy Breen that it is important to have meetings with ambassadors of countries surrounding the European Union on the European neighbourhood policy, partnership and bilateral arrangements to be up to speed on what is going on. This will benefit the relationship with Ukraine and the broader European Union and global relationships. We are cognisant of the Ukrainian football team which is preparing for the European championships. Ukraine has a great history of being the bread basket of the Soviet Union and Europe. That brings us to the modern day difficulties and the gas supply crisis last spring. Vast quantities of gas are being channelled to the European Union from Russia through Ukraine. Will the ambassador elaborate on gas reserves, the pipeline, the penalties and fines applicable and outline the financial as well as the political relationship with Russia? Will he also comment on how this ties in with Ukraine's application for membership of NATO, which is not favoured by Russia? Is Ukraine walking a tightrope between its application for EU membership and the fact that the majority of its trade is with Russia?
The ambassador mentioned the Holodomor holocaust. What impact will raising this issue as an act of genocide by Russia in 1932-33 have on the present day relationship with Russia? I will limit my questions to the nexus of relationships between Ukraine's past history and current business connections with Russia and the European Union.
I thank the ambassador, His Excellency, Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi, for his informative address in which he covered a wide range of issues.
Following on from Deputy Costello's remarks on the European championships in 2012, does it mean that should Ireland qualify, we will have a contact in Mr. Bazylevskyi when we are looking for tickets?
Members on this side agree that building a relationship with Ukraine and having greater co-operation between our countries would be of mutual benefit. It is important that we make every effort to improve the situation. The ambassador raised two issues that were of immediate concern, the lack of progress on a double taxation agreement and the need to advance visa liberalisation for Ukrainian nationals. Can we assist in progressing these issues?
The ambassador referred to the new long-term gas agreement with Russia which will guarantee the supply of gas not only to Ukraine but to European countries. We appreciate the security that will give us following the difficulties experienced last year. That highlighted the difficulties in the relationship between Ukraine and Russia and how vulnerable Ukraine is in many respects. Will the ambassador expand on the relationship with Russia and the progress made in recent years?
I wish the ambassador well in his efforts to realise the aspiration of Ukraine to become a member of the European Union.
I would like to be associated with the words of welcome to His Excellency Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi. I thank him for his detailed address to the joint committee and ask him to convey our greetings and best wishes to the President, Mr. Viktor Yushchenko. I had the privilege shortly after the Orange Revolution and his subsequent election as President of hosting him when he visited Ireland. I walked and talked with him, his wife and officials for nearly two hours in the mid-west, as Deputy Breen mentioned. That was at an early stage of the democratic genesis and I salute him on the leadership he has given and the success Ukraine has achieved in the intervening period in making significant progress. We very much admire the success Ukraine has achieved.
We see Ukraine as both a partner and an intermediary with Russia. From an Irish perspective of the European Union, it is vitally import that Ukraine be a parallel partner and provide a link with Russia. The European neighbourhood policy is one of the hallmarks of the European Union. We can develop that policy with Russia and the Ukraine as partners. We can consolidate that partnership so that it would be mutually beneficial to the European Union, to Ireland as a member of the Union, to the Ukraine as a trading partner with the Union and to Russia as a key supplier of energy and other resources through the Ukraine into the European Union. The Ukraine has developed that process.
The Ukraine has a lot of similarities with Ireland, not least the disposition of its people. The history of the Ukraine mirrors our own history and evolution. We understand the difficulties the Ukraine may have had, and might still have, in the shadow of a greater neighbour. We believe that partnership, dialogue and trade are critically important so that we can develop northern Europe in particular to the advantage of the Ukraine and the European Union in partnership with Russia.
We would like the European energy charter to be signed by all partners. That is most important. We will raise the matter with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to ensure there is diplomatic effort to bring that to full signatory status so that we can all be assured of the energy supplies that are critical to economic growth across the European Union and that all citizens of the Union can benefit and have certainty on it in the future.
From a European perspective, food policy in Europe is vital. The Common Agricultural Policy is a key pillar of the Union. On that basis we see much potential at the world trade talks from both Europe and the Ukraine taking a Common Position, especially on food supplies. That is important for the future and is something that can be developed.
We wish the Ukraine well with its election. We wish all the candidates well, in particular the president. I, personally, wish him well because his leadership is critical for the future. We look forward to having dialogue and partnership with the Ukraine as both of our countries evolve and prosper in a new and strong Europe.
I welcome the ambassador. Similarly to other speakers, I have an interest in the relationship between the Ukraine, its neighbours and the European Union and support the further accession of states to the east into the EU. It is logical that those states would join.
I am conscious of the fact that Ireland is a good template for the Ukraine in its relations with its neighbours. We, in particular, have had similar experiences in that food was exported in large quantities during a famine. A British Prime Minister even apologised in our Parliament. That same man is the one whom the Government is supporting for the top job of President of the European Council. It is probably a story of hope and better relations.
It is interesting to note relations within a European context. We were dependent financially and economically on the United Kingdom, just as the Ukraine was on Russia. There is a new, democratic Russia. In a recent report the EU clearly stated that Georgia started the aggression in the recent hostilities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It appears to be correct that that was the case. As a potential member of the EU the Prime Minister of the Ukraine wrote an interesting article for The Economist. Ms Tymoshenko proposed a new Treaty of Rome-type agreement between the EU and Russia. That was broadly welcomed. It is difficult to see at this time but it would put Poland and the east European states such as the Ukraine at the centre of Europe in terms of commerce, activity and trade once the potential of Russia has been realised. There is a new Ukraine and a new Russia. Surely, if Germany and Russia can have good trading and political relations and even Germany and Israel, in recognition that there is an old Germany and a new Germany, as Konrad Adenauer stated in the 1950s, there is a new Russia and the relationship the Ukraine will have with Russia will be important for all of us in the future.
I welcome the ambassador to the joint committee. I apologise for my late arrival. I have had an opportunity to read the statement prepared by the ambassador. The significant steps forward the Ukraine has taken are impressive. I note that in 2008 the Ukraine joined the World Trade Organisation and that it is in the process of negotiating an association agreement with the European Union with the aspiration in the longer term of becoming a full member of the European Union. The ambassador mentioned that the Ukraine is the only country among the soviet successor states to be ranked as free by Freedom House and other international human rights NGOs. That is positive. Judicial and constitutional changes require to be made. I am interested to hear what areas the ambassador considers require most change to meet the Copenhagen criteria, which are essential to becoming a member of the European Union.
We are all aware of the tensions that have arisen from time to time between the Ukraine and Russia over energy security. Given the Ukraine's intention to become a member of the European Union, it will be aware that the Lisbon treaty empowers the European Union to develop a common energy policy. How does the Ukraine see its energy future developing in the context of membership of the European Union?
The ambassador has heard the views of members. The committee has expressed an interest in developments in the Ukraine in the past along the lines expressed by members. Everyone recognises that the Ukraine has a role to play in an emerging Europe. That is accepted by most commentators, and is recognised by the European Union as a whole.
Members have correctly expressed concern about the tensions between Russia and the Ukraine in recent years. That is a natural result of emerging from the shadow of a more powerful neighbour. We can empathise with that. We are where we are. That is a horrible phrase that begs the question as to whether we could be anywhere else anyway. The situation that is now developing requires careful diplomatic measurement on both sides. How matters are handled is hugely critical to Russia, the Ukraine and Europe.
We used to read about the Ukraine in the past, when we had time to do so. The population of the Ukraine is huge, more than twice the population of Australia. It is a big country and it must be taken into account in the evolution of Europe. Members referred to NATO membership. That is an important issue. We think we know where the Ukraine is coming from in that regard. Given the situation from which the Ukraine emerged, access to the EU might not be as quick as access to NATO. Most of the neighbouring countries in the region saw that at an early stage and sought access to NATO. That might well have an impact on the Ukraine's neighbour and give rise to concern in that country. The degree to which the Ukraine can establish good relations with its neighbour as equal partners and with the European Union at the same time will be critically important in the future. I invite the ambassador to wrap up proceedings.
I was not present so I did not feel I should contribute as I missed the ambassador's presentation. I thank him for attending. I was interested in the famine in the Ukraine and the ambassador's hope that we could identify with what he said. The ambassador referred to "the legislative bodies of a number of the EU member states in recognising the Holodomor as an act of genocide." How many European states have identified with that?
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
I thank the Chairman, my friends and the esteemed members of the joint committee for their questions that demonstrate their great interest in Ukrainian affairs. With the Chairman's permission I will summarise the replies to all those questions because it would be the easiest way to answer them.
First, in reply to Deputy Breen's question on what the difference is between the candidates running in the presidential election in the Ukraine, it is significant that all the candidates running for the presidency are constructing a triangle of relations for the Ukraine in future. This triangle involves an eagerness to develop a strategic partnership with the European Union, Russia and the United States. Each candidate has emphasised a pro-EU stance for the foreign policy development of the Ukraine. No one rejects that dimension. Even Mr. Yanukovych, who is now in opposition and is considered by the mass media as pro-Russian, has emphasised his interest in developing relations with the European Union, Russia and the United States. That is the same as the President, Mr. Yushchenko, and the Prime Minister, Ms Tymoshenko, not to mention the others.
A total of 70% of Ukrainians wish to see their country as a fully fledged member of the European Union. As for relations with Russia, last week there was a meeting between the Ukrainian Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Poroshenko, and Mr. Lavrov, the Russian Minister for Foreign Affairs. Both sides were satisfied with that meeting. They stated that they are optimistic about the further development of relations between our two countries. It was agreed that all issues are to be solved on the basis of mutual pragmatism and that any misuse of existing political problems between our two countries should be avoided.
Today, two expert groups met to discuss the most difficult question, namely, the Russian Black Sea fleet on Ukrainian territory. It has been agreed that a number of steps are to be undertaken to normalise the situation in that regard. Moreover, both sides have stated that they are not in favour of revising the existing agreements between the two states on the Black Sea fleet and its future.
Regarding gas, after the agreement between the Ukraine and Russia was signed last January and following a number of steps undertaken by both sides, for the first time in two years we could spend a quiet and happy Christmas not having negotiations between our two parties but at our homes. Europe can rest assured that the gas from Russia via the territory of the Ukraine will be supplied and transported without any problem.
We understand the importance of a further solution on the question of gas supply. That is why the Ukraine is in favour of seeking additional or alternative sources of gas supply, not only from Russia but from other countries. For that reason we are negotiating a gas supply from the Caucasus region and from the territory of central Europe. We expect that our pipeline system will make it possible for us to provide gas from alternative sources other than Russia. Currently, a total of 40% of Russian gas is transported to Europe through Ukrainian territory.
We understand that NATO is the only sophisticated system of collective security that can provide security to the Ukraine. At the same time we realise that there are some ideas on the development of a European security system within the European Union. Many politicians in the Ukraine are considering that possibility, but as of now the NATO system is the only system that the Ukrainian leadership considers to be reliable and which we could find useful in the field of defence. Our leaders have stated that the aspiration of the Ukraine to join NATO is not aimed against Russian interests. We understand that NATO is not an organisation built on an anti-Russian basis. Russia's military structures co-operate closely with NATO. Ukrainian military structures also co-operate closely with it and the Euro-Atlantic system.
On the status of Crimea, this is an area in the Ukraine that has a complicated and difficult history. Different ethnic waves took over this territory. In the Middle Ages it was a Tartar state under the protection of Turkey. Then it was conquered by the Russian Empire. During the Stalinist regime the local population was deported from the territory of Crimea and it was settled with a Russian population. Nowadays it is part of the Ukraine. Much is dependent upon the economic situation there. A Russian base, the status of which is temporary, is situated there. We have witnessed the interference of a number of foreign countries in the Crimean region. A plot by a radical Islamic organisation was recently discovered. We are trying to do our best to maintain peace there. All the political forces in the Crimea are interested in ensuring the stable and peaceful development of that region, which is unique in terms of its climate and the potential it affords for the development of resorts. Ukraine is capable of ensuring the situation in the Crimea remains stable and we shall do our best to improve things there.
With regard to the Holodomor, I recently discovered that the Irish name for the Great Famine, Gorta Mór, sounds like Holodomor.
Yes, Gorta Mór.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
In Ukrainian, the word we have for our great famine is "Holodomor".
The big hunger.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
There were close similarities between them. Deputy Costello and other members were correct in saying that we have much in common in terms of history and destiny. We remember this sad event in our history but not with the purpose of undertaking any steps aimed against Russia in an attempt to blame the regime in the former Soviet Union that ruled at that time. Remembrance of this event is a condemnation of the regime of any totalitarian great empire. We understand many Russians also suffered during that period, but remembrance of the Holodomor in Ukraine will not deprive the right of Russians to remember their victims. That is the factual position.
A conference will be held in the National University of Ireland, Maynooth, next week devoted to comparative studies of the Ukrainian Holodomor and the Great Famine in Ireland in terms of the factors common to them and the differences between them.
I believe the ambassador wished to comment on the European Football Championship.
The ambassador should not let the Deputy lead him down that road.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
If I am here when the tickets are being sold, be assured I would like one. Moreover, it would be a privilege for me to see my friend, the ambassador of Poland.
(Interruptions).
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
We will do our best. Both countries, the Ukraine and Poland — the Polish ambassador could advise on this — are doing their best to provide the best facilities for the 2012 championship. Grandiose work is being undertaken in the Ukraine in particular in constructing new roads and building new stadiums. All members will be most welcome in the Ukraine.
In regard to the double taxation agreement, a talks process is taking place. It is not an easy issue to resolve. The major part of the agreement has been prepared and agreed. There are differences about the percentage of royalties and level of taxation on both sides. Both sides are agreeable to reaching a compromise. I believe I will be successful in bringing a Ukrainian delegation here or an Irish delegation to Ukraine to finalise this agreement, which would open up the potential of our impressive and prospective economic and trade relations. Several respected Irish companies, for example, the Quinn Group and CRH have developed their networks in the Ukraine and CRH has developed cement factories there. The volume of direct investment by Irish businesses in the Ukraine is increasing.
I met the leadership of the Irish Farmers Association recently and we discussed new possibilities for the development of co-operation in regard to agriculture. The Ukraine has a large area with good soil that can be cultivated. Many Irish farmers are interested in growing grain crops in the Ukraine and importation into Ireland.
On the issue of visa facilitation, there are some problems related to the special status of the so-called common visa zone that exists between Ireland and the UK. Developments depend upon the consent of the partners in London, though there are not many arguments in this respect.
How many Ukrainian nationals live in Ireland?
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
Approximately 3,000. They are well settled and live mainly in Dublin and in the Limerick region.
Not all of them have visas. Some are seeking visa status.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
With regard to visa status, such status would facilitate better cultural exchange, student exchanges and even exchanges in terms of politicians. For example, we are awaiting visas for a delegation of veterinarians who have been invited to Ireland for some consultations and educational purposes. They were forced to apply to the Irish branch of the immigration office in Moscow. To a certain extent that is not understandable. For example, when I recently returned from Kiev to Dublin via London, though I am the Ukrainian ambassador to Ireland, I was forced to pass some immigration formalities at the British immigration checkpoint.
In London?
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
At Heathrow Airport. I have a visa to enter Ireland. From a strictly legal point of view, I am seeking the permission of the British immigration authorities to enter Ireland. I do not see the logic in this.
The ambassador should have diplomatic immunity and mobility there.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
I have an Irish entry visa but I am still forced to have a British entry visa for transit. There are a number of unnecessary obstacles that could be easily removed. In the main area of the European Union covered by the Schengen agreement there is no necessity for formalities when moving from country to country.
What is the benefit of EU membership to Ukraine with regard to its energy resources, and so on? First and foremost, Ukraine is the largest country in Europe — it extends to 600,000 sq. km. and has a population of 47 million. In the current crisis it ranks second in its efforts to increase the production of steel. Only three countries are improving their production of steel — China, Ukraine and Iran.
Iran?
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
Iran ranks third.
Ukraine is the main transit country for gas and oil pipelines to the European Union and has huge experience in developing energy projects. It was one of the most important industrial bases in the Soviet Union in the production of energy turbines, etc. The pipelines are not only from Russia but from the transcaucasian area and central Asia. We export supplies of electricity through our European neighbours.
On being the bread basket of Europe, we produce one third of world supply of sunflower oil. For those who love beer, it may be of interest to know that Ukraine is the number one exporter of barley.
The biggest.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
Yes. We rank third in the export of wheat, etc., not to mention satellites and space rockets. In our relations with Ireland the sector that should be very productive is agriculture. Many Irish farmers are renting huge areas of land in Ukraine and are interested in developing their investments there.
Where will most changes be made according to the Copenhagen criteria? I think the most important changes will be made in the area of judicial reform in combating corruption. This is the disease of any young democracy but we receive vital support from the European Union and the Eastern Partnership Programme which I hope will be productive and helpful in the development of Ukraine.
The ambassador has covered a wide spectrum. I thank him for appearing before the joint committee and giving of his time. Members have expressed a wish to visit his country. As he rightly said, we expect to receive soon a delegation from his country for bilaterals that should take place between countries. The committee already has proposals to visit Russia, Ukraine, Turkey and the western Balkans in the course of its work programme between now and the end of its term of office, whenever that might be. That is in line with the ambassador's view that in order to ascertain what is happening in each other's territory there should be dialogue. There should be an opportunity to meet each other to understand each other better and be in a better position to comment with knowledge instead of off the top of one's head on something with which we are not too familiar. I strongly support the notion expressed by members of the committee that we should do this as part of our work programme, despite the financial constraints within which we all work. That is an important part of our job and if we fail to do it, it amounts to a failure to recognise what is happening around us.
I again thank the ambassador for being with us. We hope to be in touch with him in the not too distant future. We hope to get through our work programme during the next six months to a year. We realise the importance of the western Balkans and Ukraine and the need to speak in terms of European Union enlargement and integration and, particularly, trade with friendly nations joining the Union.
Winter is coming. As we are all aware, there is never a gas supply crisis in the summer; such sensitivities tend to arise in winter. We hope the arrangements that will be put in place through the Union will stand us in good stead and that Ukraine will not suffer in the course of the winter.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to participate in this debate. I regard it as a great honour for me and it shows high respect for my country. I look to forward to members' visit to Ukraine. I will do my best to make their visit as fruitful as possible.
The honourable Deputy Breen has informed me that he will join the group of observers for the forthcoming presidential elections. I invite——
There is no truth to the rumour that his constituency colleague encouraged him to embark on that project.
I do not mind if he brings me.
H.E. Mr. Borys Bazylevskyi
It will strengthen our interparliamentary relations and relations between our two countries.
I thank the ambassador.
The joint committee went into private session at 3.20 p.m. and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 November 2009.