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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 18 May 2010

Regulation of Lobbyists: Discussion with Representative from Trinity College

Item No. 1 is a discussion with Dr. Raj Chari from the department of political science, Trinity College Dublin, on the regulation of lobbyists in the EU. One aspect of the political process which we do not often consider is the influence of lobbyists. This has been a subject of discussion in Ireland and throughout Europe. As legislators, we are sometimes asked whether we respond to lobbyists or whether we act as lobbyists. As an elected member of Parliament, I do not act as a lobbyist nor do I see myself as a lobbyist. However, there are procedures whereby people can lobby on behalf of various interest groups, sometimes with success. It is generally believed that there is a need for regulation in this area, to enable us to determine the extent to which particular influences prevail on legislators in certain cases.

Before we begin, I would like to say that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. Dr. Chari will be delighted to know that. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

That is very sound advice.

There is no charge for it. I ask Dr. Chari to make his presentation.

Dr. Raj Chari

I thank the joint committee for its kind invitation to present my work, which is co-authored with Professor Gary Murphy of DCU and Dr. John Hogan of DIT. We are about to publish a book on the regulation of lobbying, in which we make global comparisons. International observers will probably notice that some of the countries with lobbying regulations have established them since the 1980s — in the 1990s or the 2000s. We have received funding from the Irish Research Council for the Humanities and Social Sciences. We are grateful to the council for allowing us to do this work.

I will start by giving the committee a simple definition of lobbying. I do not need to discuss it in great detail with those present, who are involved in political and economic activities. We define lobbying as an act of individual groups, each of which may have varying and specific interests, that attempts to influence a decision taken by public officials at a political level. A key aspect of this idea is that lobbying involves an attempt by private actors to influence public actors. Such attempts may involve direct communication with government officials, offers of presentations, draft reports or something as simple as a telephone conversation. All of this is underpinned by the idea that lobbying is a central and legitimate part of the democratic process. There is nothing wrong with lobbying. It should be accepted as something that exists in democracy today. We know it exists. Lobbying helps to inform political actors when they take decisions. From that perspective, it can be suggested that there are two forms of lobbying — that done through consultancies and that done in-house. Lobbyists may come from the corporate world, non-governmental organisations, trade unions, religious organisations and think tanks.

The concept of lobbying as an attempt to influence has been pretty well established. Therefore, we need to consider what we mean when we talk about the regulation of lobbying. The idea is that political systems have established rules that lobby groups have to follow when they try to influence government officials. If one does not comply with the mandatory regulations, one can be penalised. I will mention some examples of rules that can be established when lobbying is being regulated. In most political systems that have regulations, the first and most common rule provides that lobbyists have to register with the state before contact can be made with a public official. During the registration process, the lobbyist is required to indicate what exactly he or she intends to influence, in terms of ministries or specific legislation that may be considered by government or parliament. I will refer to the various lobbying and regulatory systems. In some cases, lobbyists have to file individual or employer spending reports to reveal how much money is being used on their lobbying activity. Throughout all systems, a list of registered lobbyists is generally publicly available to enable citizens to see who is lobbying who and on what proposal. A somewhat contentious dimension of this issue is that provision is often made for a cooling off period, to avoid the revolving door phenomenon. This means that a person who leaves the world of politics has to refrain from entering into a lobbying profession for a period which can range, according to the legislation, from six months to — in the case of Canada, at federal level — five years.

I make it clear that the regulation of lobbying is not about preventing corruption. Generally speaking, all established democratic systems already have laws to prevent corruption. The objective of lobbying registration is to create transparency in the political process so people know who politicians and high-level civil servants are talking to. Accountability in the political system is ensured on that basis. In the late 1800s, the United States became the first country to establish lobbying laws at state level. It followed that up with federal laws in the mid-1940s. All of its states currently have lobbying laws, which also exist at federal level. Germany enacted legislation in this area in the 1950s and Canada followed suit in the 1980s. The European Parliament provided for the regulation of lobbying in the mid-1990s. Four political systems had established lobbying regulations by the end of the 21st century. That number has more than doubled in the past decade. Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Taiwan and Australia introduced lobbying legislation in the 2000s. The most recent countries to do so were France and Israel.

In our comparative analysis, we try to take all of the different political systems with lobbying regulations and ask how they compare with each other. One way to analyse this is to take a series of questions, as drawn up by the US Centre for Public Integrity, do a textual analysis of the different forms of legislation that exist and, on a scale between one and 100, determine where each of the jurisdictions with lobbying legislation fits in. We use eight different parameters to that end — the definition of a lobbyist; the procedures for individual registration; whether spending disclosures are required on the part of individuals and employers; whether everything can be done electronically on the Internet; whether clear public access to a registry exists; whether the rules are enforced by independent regulators; and the revolving door provisions. We try to do two things on that basis — to ascertain where the different jurisdictions with lobbying rules are placed on this scale and, on the basis of the scale, to ascertain whether there are qualitative similarities between the different types of systems. In the latter case, we have come up with a hypothesis in which there are three different types of regulatory environments in the world of regulated lobbying. It is a pretty simple classification.

The three types of system are those which are lowly regulated, those which are medium regulated and those which are highly regulated. I will set out the differences between them. When designating which of the three systems applies, we consider whether certain factors are in place. Are there tight rules on individual registration? Are rigorous standards applied when lobbyists are asked to provide a certain amount of information when registering? In highly regulated systems, individual lobbyists have to provide a great deal of information about themselves. In lowly regulated systems, they have to give few details. Very few spending disclosures, if any, are required of lobbyists in lowly regulated systems. The system of spending disclosure is very robust in highly regulated systems. Another of the distinguishing features is each system's degree of public access, in terms of citizens being able to see the full details of each of the lobbyists. Lowly regulated systems do not have very robust rules with regard to the revolving door phenomenon, whereas highly regulated systems do.

I understand that a copy of table 4.3 on page 109 of our book, Regulating Lobbying: A Global Comparison, was forwarded to the committee last week. I will set out some of the ballpark figures. We generally find that the American jurisdictions in the US, including the federal level since 2007 when the latest round of reforms took place, have highly regulated systems. This means they have tighter rules when it comes to registering. The Canadian federal system is a medium regulated system, as are the systems in Hungary, Lithuania, Taiwan and Australia. The system used in the European Parliament and the voluntary registry system of the European Commission are lowly-regulated systems. It would be of direct interest to the joint committee to know where the developments are at European level. To be fair, the European Parliament was one of the first institutions to invoke this legislation in 1996, but it works more as a door-pass system. Therefore, if a lobbyist wished to talk to somebody outside Parliament, he or she does not have to register. If one goes through the doors, however, one does have to be registered. Many people have criticised this as being more of a door-pass system.

In 2008, the Commission started with what is referred to as a voluntary registry scheme. The idea at Commission level has been that self-regulation is sufficient and that lobbyists should not have to follow any rules when it comes to registering. With that in mind, they made this voluntary initiative in 2008. It is difficult to assess the statistics of how effective it has been. No one has ever come to a firm number as to how many lobbyists are active in Brussels. It ranges from 10,000 to 20,000 but the academic position is that it is 15,000. I do not know if anyone really knows the number. What we can say though is that, as of this morning, of the apparent 15,000, some 2,729 had registered. We do not know if that is a high or low percentage. However, if one was to take the 15,000 number as a guide, it is a relatively low percentage. Of these, we can see that professional consultancies make up the smallest number of those who are registered, whereas the largest number comprises in-house corporate lobbyists and trade associations. More than half the registries belong to different companies that will be pursuing lobbying activity in Brussels. There are also different NGOs and think tanks.

One of the criticisms we have made in our work, which is based on talking to Commission officials, as well as interviews and surveys, is that there is a political will to have a mandatory registry at Commission level. Why is that? There is no penalty if one does not register and, effectively, if there is no penalty there is no incentive to register. The European Commission did think about having a mandatory system, but decided not to have one. It is still thinking about whether or not to have it, but from what I understand I do not think it will.

I found Dr. Chari's presentation fascinating. Although I did not read his book, I read his paper earlier and learned so much from it.

Dr. Raj Chari

The book launch is taking place at 5.30 p.m. tomorrow in European Union House. The Senator is more than welcome to come.

I will get it tomorrow.

We may get a sneak preview today.

Dr. Raj Chari

There you go.

It is a topic that has always interested me. I have been a Member of the Seanad for almost 18 years and I did not know that lobbying existed before I came in. I discovered the benefits of lobbyists when I first came to the Seanad, but I also discovered the disadvantages. First, wherever a topic was coming up it was very beneficial to have somebody who could explain their view on it. If there were two opposing views, one had to make one's decision on that basis. What concerned me, however, was that I did not realise that lobbying took place. Earlier today, I checked an address I made in December 1999. I produced a paper on lobbying in which I proposed that the Seanad should change and become the only place where lobbyists could operate on every piece of legislation. They could use the Upper House as an open forum for lobbying. There is still a great deal to be said for having a ban on hidden lobbyists. Some lobbyists deal with Government, parliamentarians and officials but democracy would be healthier if it were all in the open. I am not sure how that is being achieved elsewhere.

I noted Dr. Chari's description of the three different levels of lobbying and how they work. What I had in mind was to ban any lobbying other than that which occurs in the full glare of public scrutiny. There is a benefit behind that. I was impressed by the fact that there are various levels of lobbying. Very often, lobbyists will approach officials rather than decision-makers in the long term. That is very useful to learn, but I still believe it should be done in the open. I am not sure if Dr. Chari is able to help us in that regard.

Four years ago, I became a lobbyist myself without knowing it. I became chairman of EuroCommerce, which is based in Brussels and represents the international wholesale, retail and distributive trades in Europe. It is a fairly large organisation. I realised that its main purpose was to represent the views of international traders, including distributors, wholesalers and retailers. The arguments EuroCommerce has to make are needed in Europe to oppose alternative views that have much stronger lobbying. Manufacturers, farmers and consumers have strong lobby groups. Unless there was a lobby representing the business and trade sectors, many of their views would not be expressed.

How can we ensure that lobbying takes place in the full glare of publicity, open to public scrutiny? In that way, everybody could see what lobbying was going on, and it would not happen behind closed doors. I would welcome Dr. Chari's view on how that has been achieved in other countries. I look forward to seeing his book. I will look in particular at the list he has given us of the three levels — what he calls the low, medium and high regulation systems — in all those areas.

Dr. Chari touched on the revolving door provision, which I had not recognised. There is a certain discussion going on at the moment with regard to a former European Commissioner accepting a position on the board of an airline. I am not seeking a comment on that particular case, but who decides whether or not that cooling off period can take place? I thank Dr. Chari for opening my eyes to a topic about which I had not realised so much work had already been done.

I welcome Dr. Chari to the committee and wish him well with the launch of his book. I hope we will get invitations for tomorrow evening's event. I hope to attend it. From my experience, having been out of here for a period, I was approached by an advertising agency to act on its behalf. I declined the offer and it went out of business afterwards, so I was pretty relieved that I did not join it.

Perhaps it went out of business because the Senator did not join it.

Maybe so. The cooling off period is important. There have been too many such experiences in the European Parliament. For instance, former Commissioner Martin Bangermann joined a major telecommunications company in the Netherlands soon after he had been the Commissioner in charge of telecommunications for the European Union. That is an example of what happens in real life. Former Ministers, Deputies and Senators have enormous access to government through the Members' bar, which is open to all former Members of the Oireachtas who are useful contacts for organisations. Many of them have joined organisations and I see them regularly in the House, although I will not name any names.

It is a reasonable suggestion to have a register of lobbyists. Yesterday, for example, I was lobbied about subcontractors by the Construction Industry Federation concerning Senator Quinn's Bill which will be before the Seanad tomorrow evening. The CIF is keen for us to support the Bill on Second Stage tomorrow.

The Senator should do so.

Will Senator Leyden let us into the secret?

It is a matter for the Government to decide.

I was all fired up for that.

I hope we will give it a Second Reading. I would be influenced by the case made by the Construction Industry Federation on this Bill, because it is worthwhile concerning the right of subcontractors to be paid. They should be guaranteed payment, rather than being left at the end of the foodchain.

I am also interested in the use of the Internet for lobbying. One does not need to be in the building here to be flooded with e-mails about legislation. That is a form of lobbying though it does not take place in the House. There is a need for regulations and for a register and both things are very reasonable in a democracy.

I look forward to reading Dr. Chari's book to learn more about the fundamental issues.

I thank Dr. Chari for his very interesting presentation. There is a right time to put in a formal structure for lobbying but how does one create a register of lobbyists that does not impinge on an individual citizen's entitlement to speak with local public representatives on matters of concern? People may like the low-regulation model but it may not be the best. Does Dr. Chari have a view on that?

I wish Dr. Chari well with his book and I am sure it will be a bestseller.

I welcome Dr. Chari and wish him well with his book. I apologise for being late but I had to keep in touch with events in my own constituency. As public representatives, we are lobbied all the time and it comes in many different forms. A person might make a telephone call to oppose something or send an e-mail explaining why he or she supports a different course of action. Pressure groups and professional people might come to us to present their case. Dr. Chari mentioned three levels of lobbying but is there an accepted definition of lobbying in Europe or around the world?

I apologise for being late but I was at another meeting. I am sorry I missed Dr. Chari's presentation but I wish him well with his publication, which we will read with great interest. Deputy Seán Power asked how wide was the definition of a lobbyist. Ireland is a very broad democracy and access for the citizens of our nation to elected representatives is very open. If one is to survive in national or local politics, one must know one's constituency. In other parts of the world a person backed by the brand of a powerful political party is automatically elected and lobbying seems to be very pronounced in those places.

In the past we were not victims of strong lobbying but, with modern technology, we now receive documentation on a constant basis. We are tracked by people who wish to see how we have responded in Parliament, including in committees, on the issues about which they care. Does Dr. Chari see such a thing as a threat to democracy or an invasion of the integrity of the elected representative?

In addition to the growth in modern technology there have been developments in opening up information. Freedom of information has a detrimental impact in that it ties the hands of government, Cabinet and politicians in general. They have to make decisions for the common good based on the information available but, many years later, their decisions are subjected to scrutiny and politicians are expected to remember them, despite the fact that they have to make decisions all the time.

It is for the common good that politicians can make decisions. Whether they are members of the Cabinet, who are the directors of the nation, Ministers of State, who are the assistant directors, or parliamentarians, politicians all discharge their responsibilities by making decisions, usually by consensus and often by majority. Whether a Member is for or against a decision, he or she is a party to the decision and must accept it. Does Dr. Chari see lobbying or freedom of information as major impediments to the freedom elected politicians have under the Constitution to make decisions without fear or favour?

Dr. Chari has heard an interesting range of views. A number of speakers stressed the need for lobbying to be open and transparent. He also referred to the distinction between direct and indirect, or subliminal, lobbying. To what extent can the parliamentarian, as opposed to politicians generally, ensure a person being lobbied has a balanced view of where a lobbyist is coming from, what his or her objectives are and how best to proceed in those circumstances? Could vital information be withheld so that a person who is lobbied makes a decision which would have been different had it been taken with hindsight? It would be beneficial if everything was done in a transparent fashion and a person being lobbied was in a position to know the background, associations and objectives of the lobbyist. In that way the politician can decide if the matter is for the public good.

Lobbying can be helpful as it brings together the views of a particular group. Those views may be very legitimate but difficult to obtain without the lobbying system. Trade unions, farm organisations and industrial representatives all have the right to lobby Members of Parliament, provided we know where they are coming from.

Dr. Raj Chari

Members have put five or six questions and I will address them as well as I can. The first was Deputy Seán Power's question as to whether or not there was an accepted definition of lobbying. Our research found that different academics have different definitions of what lobbying is. We decided that the common thread was an attempt to influence. I am not talking about individual citizens, a subject to which I will return when we discuss the 1995 Nolan report in the UK, but a group of people with a specific agenda and specific interests who try to influence decisions at a political level. By "political level" I mean not only politicians but high-level civil servants or even aides working with Ministers, Deputies or Senators.

The reference to the "attempt to influence" is taken from the definition of the Canadian registry of lobbyists but different interest groups have different agendas. That answers the question of what a legislator is supposed to do when visited by an interest group with a specific agenda. The group is trying to influence public policy in a way that reflects its interest but it is the job of politicians to check the organisations they meet and a register would help in this regard. Many of the MPs we spoke to, for example in Canada and the United States, said that before they meet people who want to influence them, including members of lobby groups and interest groups, they go to the registry to see what such people are about. They ascertain whether their organisations are registered, what they are trying to influence, what their mandate is and what they are trying to do. The registry makes all of that information publicly available so that when politicians talk to interest groups, they do not go in blindly.

We can all calculate and weigh the different interests that are presented to us. We do this constantly in life, when different people tell us to do different things. They may be simply giving us advice or they may have their own interests. It is up to elected politicians to determine the agendas of lobbyists — what they want to see done and how seriously it should be taken. That is why there is a multitude of interest groups. If one interest group says corporate taxes should be decreased, another interest group might say that is not a great idea because the social welfare system might not have the money to survive. It is a matter of being able to calculate what each group's agenda is. If one does not have a registry, one might not necessarily know that. As a politician, one will not have the information to hand to know what these people's interests are.

Deputy Treacy asked whether lobbying impedes the freedom and independence of elected officials. I guess I have already provided an answer to that. Members are aware that there are different views about the independence of elected officials. One of the benefits of a registry is that it enables one to know where these people are coming from and gives one a better insight into their views. I do not think lobbying is a threat to democracy. It is a legitimate and accepted part of western liberal democracy. It is normal for different organisations and groups to want to try to influence public policy. Consultancies that are working on behalf of clients, like in-house corporates that work on behalf of different sectors of the economy, such as telecommunications, want regulation and different rules to be pursued in a different way. I do not think that is undemocratic. Democracy is not just about public officials being elected every four or five years; it is about public officials making informed decisions that improve the polity. Sometimes the polity can be bettered by hearing the opinions of different actors in civil society, including lobbyists. It depends how one wants to define democracy. I do not think lobbying is a threat. The idea is that with regulation, one can create transparency and accountability in one's democracy. If one does not have that, people will not know who their politicians and high-level civil servants are talking to. That is how discussions on things like NAMA end up taking place in back doors and wine cellars. I am taking care not to be prosecuted on the basis of not having immunity.

Dr. Chari is safe.

Dr. Raj Chari

In Ireland and other democracies that do not have lobbying legislation, public policy is formulated without the public having full information about who is talking to who about what and how it emerges. In the case of NAMA, did three or four people sit down to decide on a sudden and big change to the long-term public policy of the State on the basis of a few conversations? There would be something fundamentally wrong with that. I suggest that one can restore a type of democratic accountability precisely by having a registry.

In the specific case of NAMA, if we were to turn back the clock, what would Dr. Chari have done differently if he had been in charge? How would he have created NAMA?

Dr. Raj Chari

I will put it this way. If a registry had existed——

The Deputy's question is a loaded one.

I know it is a loaded question. It is a genuine question with multiple answers.

No, it is a very——

Dr. Raj Chari

To be clear, I have absolutely no partisan affiliation with any political party in this country or any other country.

No, we are taking Dr. Chari as being an independent-minded person.

Dr. Raj Chari

No, no——

I am quite happy to——

Dr. Raj Chari

I am responding to the suggestion that I have been asked a loaded question. My response is not a loaded response because I do not have any feelings towards any political party in this State or in my own state of Canada. I want to make that clear. If a lobbying registry had existed in Ireland when NAMA was established, it would have been clear to anyone who tried to influence the State on this specific public policy that they had to publish their details and their actual remit — what they were trying to influence and how — on a registry. The public would have been better informed about what was going on. How can we get information about what happened during the creation of NAMA? All we have is media leaks and a game of "he said, she said". We do not have any real or transparent knowledge of the whole political process that caused NAMA to come about. I do not think I am saying anything most of the public would not agree with. One can curtail——

What degree——

I ask the Deputy to allow Dr. Chari to continue. I will let him back in at the end.

Dr. Raj Chari

Of course one can curtail that sort of black box policy-making by adding transparency and by having a registry. It is a change from the old nod and a wink that happens in Ireland. That takes place a lot around here. If one had a registry, one would be able to say whether a lobbyist is registered and his or her contact with a public official is legal or illegal.

Is Dr. Chari assuming that if we did not have lobbying, we would not have NAMA?

Dr. Raj Chari

Lobbying is a given. In every western liberal democracy, lobbying takes place as public policy is formulated in sectors like education, health, tax and telecommunications. We all know it is taking place. There was a suggestion that lobbying does not take place to the same extent in Ireland as it does in Brussels and other political systems in the western world. Sure it does — of course it does. There is nothing wrong with it. We just do not talk about it here.

I have often pointed out to the committee that subliminal lobbying takes place from time to time, for some unknown reason, through the EU institutions and at national level. What was the genesis of an idea on one occasion reappears on the next occasion as a policy or an intended policy. It is important for legislators to be fully aware of the origins of certain notions. It can be helpful to us as legislators. I want to bring this matter to a conclusion. We have a long agenda. We have to deal with other issues as well.

I am sorry I missed Dr. Chari's presentation. I would like to elaborate on an aspect of this matter. He mentioned that NAMA was constructed behind closed doors. I agree with him that although NAMA is probably one of the most important developments of recent decades, we do not really know where the concept arose from or how it evolved. Does Dr. Chari think it would be helpful if the Minister published documentation on how the concept of NAMA evolved and who had an input into it?

Dr. Chari does not have to answer that question as it is a political one. The purpose of this exercise is to determine the effectiveness of lobbying — its dangers and benefits — rather than to speak about its role in a particular matter.

If the input of lobbyists is not published, is there a danger that a misconstruction can be put on events?

Dr. Raj Chari

I do not know if the existence of a registry of lobbyists or politicians — with the possible exception of Canada, in the new Harper legislation — necessarily means that information is provided on what goes on at meetings with lobbyists. If we know who is talking to whom, we will have a pretty good idea of what is talked about. I do not know if that answers the Deputy's question. One of the things we found in our interviews, particularly in Canada, is that politicians and lobbyists embrace regulation for different reasons. It allows politicians to say openly to the public that they have spoken to certain interests. If people want more details about what such interests represent, politicians can advise them to go to the Internet. Equally, regulation legitimises the profession of lobbyists, who can accept that they try to influence policy. Those who avail of lobbying services, including corporations and non-governmental organisations, know exactly what they are doing. Regulation is not a bad thing — it is the opposite. It helps people to know what is going on and, if they do not like it, to develop a sense of accountability.

There is one other issue. Lobbyists can be paid large fees.

Dr. Raj Chari

Does the Chairman mean contingency fees or just fees in general?

Fees on the basis that they have successfully influenced policy at various levels. Parliamentarians, on the other hand, may well have come to a conclusion on the basis of their own judgment. It may coincide with the views of the lobbyist, but it may not.

Dr. Raj Chari

That is right.

We still have a long agenda.

I am somewhat confused by what Dr. Chari has said. He is creating an impression that we are the victims of lobbyists in this country.

Dr. Raj Chari

No. I am sorry, I did not say that.

One speaker at a time.

Dr. Raj Chari

I simply wanted to say that lobbying takes place in Ireland. We can be ostriches and say "No, it does not", but it does.

That is why I asked for the definition, which I am not satisfied we have received.

Dr. Raj Chari

I said it at the beginning of the presentation. I can read it again: an act of individuals or a group with varying specific interests attempting to influence decisions at the political level.

I will give a simple example and will ask Dr. Chari a few questions then. I was at a public meeting last night concerning a regional water scheme. I was lobbied seriously by the community to deliver this scheme. Does Dr. Chari think there was something wrong with that, and that I need to report that to my parliamentary party? When I make a case to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to deliver this scheme, should I also report to him that I was lobbied in a public hall by a couple of hundred people to deliver this scheme? That is modern politics in Ireland. It is traditional politics in this country.

Dr. Raj Chari

It gets to the question of——

Can Dr. Chari give us a definition of the difference between a public affairs consultant and a lobbyist? Would he also like to comment on the fact that international organisations with vast resources available to them have, on particular occasions, deployed resources to this country and others in order to influence public decisions being made by the populace? Does Dr. Chari think that the media — which consistently communicates to the public, and through the public to us, to try to influence our decisions — are lobbying and need to be registered also?

Dr. Raj Chari

Can I respond to the questions?

I want to bring all the questions together — one for all and all for one.

I want to offer my apologies for being late, but I think I came in at an interesting point. Dr. Chari is very welcome. There is intense lobbying, so there is no point in anyone saying that it does not happen. It does happen. What Deputy Treacy is talking about is proper and legitimate. One may go to a meeting about a new school or whatever, and one is lobbied. That is part of life as a parliamentarian. I do not know what Dr. Chari said earlier, but having been a Minister for several years, I know that quite a lot of what one might call high-layer lobbying goes on non-stop. Is there a European directive pending on lobbyists?

There may well be. It is being talked about.

Why are we discussing the matter? Did something big happen that we do not know about?

We never know when it could happen.

The book is being launchedtomorrow and this is the preamble to it.

There are also regulations at EU level.

There is no point in saying that lobbying does not happen, because it does. I do not know how one can be cut and dried about it and say that if a person approaches a politician by e-mail, letter or telephone, that is lobbying. If one goes out on a social occasion, one may be lobbied intensely about a particular matter. That happens to individuals and, whatever they may feel about a matter, one must judge the case in point. Lobbying is alive and well in Ireland, or was. Perhaps in these leaner times it is not as flúirseach or plentiful as it was.

I call on Dr. Chari for a final round-up.

Dr. Raj Chari

My final round-up would encompass all three points. One of the things that was written about in the Nolan report in the mid-1990s in the UK, and why they subsequently did not adopt a register of lobbyists, is because many MPs felt that if one had a register, individual citizens might think they had to register on the lobbyists' register in order to talk with their individual MPs. Every political system that has lobbying legislation has MPs or representatives who talk to their individual constituents, and they are obviously not registered. It is a completely different issue.

We are talking about people with a specific group of interests representing either a consultancy which can work on behalf of the corporation, or a corporation itself, or an NGO that tries to influence. We wanted to take this proposition in our research to the different regulators, politicians and lobbyists in Canada and the United States in particular. We wanted to ask what they thought of this idea from the Nolan report, namely, that if one has a registry it will inhibit individual constituents from trying to influence their parliamentary representatives. Most of them laughed us out of the room, as this was not something considered to be involved in having a registry. Of course, one will have to talk to, and be told different things by, one's constituents. It is a separate thing, however, from specific interest or lobby groups that have policy preferences in their interests. They are usually hired and paid to represent their organisation, which is trying to lobby politicians to adopt a different policy. They are two different issues. In fact, when we asked if a registry of lobbyists would make ordinary citizens inhibited about approaching their local representatives, some 80% of the respondents in Canada and the United States disagreed or strongly disagreed with that statement. That is evidence to show that we are talking about two different types of activity.

I thank Dr. Chari for his interesting submission that will obviously generate some subsequent discussion. There may even be responses from lobbyists, for and against. We do not know, but we shall see. We wish Dr. Chari well with his book launch. I thank members of the committee for their participation.

Sitting suspended at 2.57 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
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