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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 19 Jul 2012

Developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina: Discussion

The committee is now in public session. I ask members, guests and those in the public Gallery to switch off all mobile telephones. It is not sufficient to put them on silent because that will not prevent them interfering with broadcasting equipment.

I am delighted to welcome the distinguished journalist Mr. Ed Vulliamy who will address the committee on developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Mr. Vuillamy reported extensively in the mid-1990s on the war in Bosnia and he is the author of two books on the subject of the conflict in the region. Today's discussion is particularly relevant given that the committee intends to visit the region in six weeks' time. We are pleased to listen to Mr. Vulliamy and to hear his views on current developments.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. I do not know if members are a little fed up with people coming here and attempting to establish their Irish credentials because everyone seems to do so. However, despite my accent, birthplace and passport and being a complete ethnic mongrel, I have two Irish grandmothers and part of my business over the coming months in Dublin will be to research and find a home for some extraordinary letters that Desmond FitzGerald senior wrote to my great-aunt. Quite what their relationship was I do not know but towards the end of the time, the letters are written on what must be some of the first letterheads of the Dáil when he was the Minister for Propaganda. The committee might wish to investigate the personal use of Dáil stationery - very personal actually.

More important and more cogently, the trail to the most savage war criminals of the calamity in Bosnia by the name of Lucic began here in Dublin, thanks to a young man who is unable to attend the meeting. This refers to the trail to Lucic by me as a journalist in 1996 and then by The Hague investigators. He is now serving a life sentence for some of the most appalling crimes such as locking families, children and elderly people into their houses and burning them down and also mass slaughter on the bridge at Visegrad. I give thanks for the survival of this extraordinary young man and to the Ireland Action for Bosnia group which helped him out and have indirectly brought me here. I thank the committee for its interest in the subject, which is invaluable. It is also rare and a hallmark of this committee, famously so, among the community of people who follow the calamity and aftermath in Bosnia, the genocide and the killing. This committee did not think that Serbia's ride into the European Union should be a free and unconditional one. Implied in this is that the European Union is not just a map but it is also an idea and it is supposed to stand for something.

I am not a regular in the corridors of politics and power and this is the professional brief I have set myself. I am preceded by my friend, Paddy Ashdown, and I agree with 90% of his views so there is no point in repeating them. I am someone who tends to work more with the powerless and they do not come much more powerless than the survivors and the bereaved of this bloodshed in Bosnia so I thought it might be most helpful if I were able to offer a kind of human rip tide, not so much views but ideas, that will infuse some of the more formal proceedings on which the committee deliberates and which members will encounter on their visit to the region.

It was my curse and honour to uncover the concentration camps in north west Bosnia, including at Omarska. I will speak about that part of the country both per se and as a metaphor for what is happening in so many other parts of the country, especially in the still strife-ridden Drina valley to the east.

The day we uncovered those camps was the day that changed my life. I went in with my colleague from ITN, Penny Marshall. She asked me recently whether we were crazy to allow this event to dominate our lives but I think we would be pretty weird if it did not do so. Not everyone gets the chance to walk into an echo - I use the word carefully and it is authorised by survivors of the Holocaust - of that previous calamity in Europe. This was the worst of its kind since the Holocaust.

Our uncovering of the camps was not the end of the war but rather it was the beginning as it was followed by three long bloody years of people like me going mad as we tried to reveal the mass enforced ethnic cleansing; deportation and mass murder; mass violation of women night after night in camps especially established for that purpose; the torture and siege of Sarajevo. This went on for three years until the general in charge of the United Nations "protection force" so called, in my view, had lunch with Ratko Mladic three days before the latter sent his death squads into Srebrenica.his was allowed to happen because of an appeasement, at best and an encouragement at worst, of the violence, by elements of the diplomatic community. I know what I say is privileged but we will not bother with the names. Most of them were British or French.

We need to examine why that happened, what was guiding this sort of appeasement and-or encouragement of the violence. It was neutrality in a situation where neutrality is not neutral but complicit in the crime. In Ireland, it is best expressed by the neutrality of Britain during the Famine, when the warehouses were full. I cannot put it any better than that and I do not mean to be tendentious. My concern has been - and more so now - that echoes of that same neutrality will pertain in the peace. It is what David Owen called the level playing field, the level killing field between perpetrator and victim, the notion that the different elements in this narrative can be dealt with in the same way. I think this is a very dangerous way to proceed but it is generally done in the cause of what is called reconciliation, time to forget and to move on. I leave that rhetoric to people in other professions than my own. It is my job to be interested not in the post-conflict resolution which is a buzz word and has become quite a lucrative industry for many people but rather in the irresolution in people's lives. Therefore, instead of reconciliation I use the word, "reckoning".

Reckoning is different and it has different meanings for different people. It is a prerequisite to whatever happens in Bosnia, in or out of the European Union. For the perpetrators it is in acts of self-exposure, a coming to terms with what they have done and then coughing up, so to speak. The obvious and extreme example is that Germany has reckoned estimably with what it did and as a result, Jewry, quite rightly, owns the history of what happened. For those people, the survivors and the bereaved, it locates them in history and it allows them to move with time and with their country - Bosnia in this case - to progress and to become a member of the European Union, the international community. There is always the forgotten voice of the dead whose voice, in my view, should be the loudest. It needs to be given a name to be found and to be given back to the living. Much of what the committee will deliberate upon as it contemplates Bosnia and the European Union depends on those things happening. Outside Sarajevo and outside the political discourse and much of the rhetoric, the reckoning is not happening.

Among much of the Bosnian community, there is a type of crazy waltz between justification and denial. It is an oxymoronic stance. On the one hand there are claims that they did not do it and it was all a media conspiracy concocted by ITN and, on the other, they are saying they had to do it because there was going to be jihad in Europe and they were not prepared to have a Slavonic Islamic state. The reality, of course, is that what happened had about as much to do with jihad as I do. Incidentally, there is a more cogent Islamic movement now.

In terms of activity on the ground, there is a group in Prijedor which organises on behalf of the families of the missing and other issues. Members of this organisation have had their windows smashed and their electricity cut off. They are currently being threatened with prosecution if they use the word genocide because that charge has not been proven at The Hague. I could go on. The bottom line is that the perpetrators are not really reckoning with what they have done.

In regard to the plight of survivors, all I can do is talk about individuals. We met a man in the camp who said on film that he did not want to tell any lies but could not tell the truth. I met him in London some eight years later when he told me that if he sleeps for an hour and half at night and his wife touches him, he is back in the camp. Members might remember the famous picture of the man behind barbed wire in 1992. I understand he is not doing too badly. His brother, however, after being okay for 15 years, woke up one morning and started babbling on about the camp and about people being raped and killed. When he did the same thing the next morning he was brought to a mental hospital and diagnosed with schizophrenia. His Danish psychiatrists are trying to break the hex but have had little success after three years. What has happened with victims like these does not amount to a reckoning for the perpetrators. These people are not seeking to own the history of what happened. If anything, I am here to register their disappearance, if that is not a contradiction in terms.

With regard to the burying of the dead in mass graves, there are primal instincts at play. Since the time we supposedly evolved into homo sapiens, we have buried our dead and built monuments to them. It is what we do. If members get the chance to visit some of these places, they will witness a miracle of science and human rights in the efforts to exhume the graves and reassemble the bodies, including some that were moved to secondary and tertiary graves. The excavators are using DNA testing to identify the remains and return them to the living. It is a remarkable achievement. Efforts are being impeded, however, at both official and institutional level by the Republika Srpska, which is the partitioned Bosnian Serb half of the country. At the vernacular level, which concerns me particularly as a reporter, I am aware that people who know where these mass graves are have had rifle butts smashed across their face and a warning not to assist the investigators seeking to locate the dead. The site of the Omarska camp has been restored to a mines complex, as it was before the war, and is now in the ownership of the ArcelorMittal steel corporation - I must be careful with my privilege here - which is almost the only corporation left in the world of any comparable size. There is no memorial to the dead of Omarska because the company insists that any such memorial must be agreed upon by the local community. I have strong views on this notion that somehow the dead cannot get their monument because the descendants of the people who committed these atrocities do not want them to have one.

These issues matter, even though many of them are not well documented. If the committee is now aware of them, they will not be included in its deliberations. These issues really count on the ground because they tore apart the lives of people who were scattered and shattered throughout the world. Some of them have gone back but many have not. Some return only for the summer months. We are talking about a nation in which only one part of its population is resident in the country itself. Any Irish person will know what I am talking about here. Large numbers of Bosnians live in the United States, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, the United Kingdom and indeed in Ireland, driving trucks 24-7 to build the houses that were levelled into the dust of their own stone. In other words, the community that seeks to join the European Union is not limited by the borders of the country itself. One hardly needs to explain that situation to Irish Deputies and Senators.

I realise that committee members will be working to a tight schedule on their visit to Sarajevo. It is fantastic that they are even interested in this and their engagement is more valuable than perhaps they know, because the reality is that most people are not interested. However, Sarajevo is not Bosnia no more than a consideration of Notting Hill Gate would give me an accurate read on youth unemployment in the United Kingdom. I understand that members cannot go everywhere but if any of them, either as individuals or in their capacity as Deputies, are interested in exploring further, I would be delighted to help. In the north west, for example, where the camps were located, the wounds are still raw and very much unresolved. In the east, particularly in the Drina Valley and in locations less famous than Srebrenica, it is still very dangerous for people to return. As I said, I can provide contacts and other assistance to any members who require it.

The question of whether the Republika Srpska can proceed without the Dayton Agreement is irrelevant. That agreement exists but it is important to talk about the difference between partition and devolution. Throughout the war and since, Bosnians have expressed the desire for their country to be like Belgium and Switzerland. The reality, however, it that it simply is not. We are dealing with partition along ethnic lines based on mass murder, mass rape and mass deportation. It is not a case of devolution. The Bosnian Croats fought a pale but unmistakable imitation of what the Bosnian Serbs tried to do during the war and now seek to do the same in peace. The Bosniak polity is not guilt free either. There was a constituency during the war that was quite happy to be a big fish in a small pond and have its own little area of influence. That is still around.

It will be difficult for Europe, Europeans and passionate pro-Europeans - among whom I include myself, as I am sure do the committee members - to walk that high wire between wanting the country to be included while wondering what type of place it is. As Lord Ashdown observed, the partition is firmly cemented at institutional level. The impact on people's everyday lives is sometimes crazy. There is a train, for instance, that travels across the country from the Croatian coast to Zagreb and has to keep changing engines, depending on whether it is in the jurisdiction of the Bosnian Federation railway company, the Republika Srpska railway or the Croatian rail company. Yet all of these people want to be in the European Union. There is an insanity in that. If one buys a postage stamp in Sarajevo and then drives ten minutes past the airport, the stamp is no longer valid even though one has only travelled from one side of the city to the other. This is apparent everywhere. Places have different names and people spray out the one they do not like on the road signs. There are three different mobile telephone codes, reflecting Croat, Muslim and Serb, for want of a better way of putting it. These issues must be addressed.

I am slightly sticking my neck out in raising the next issue, but what is the point of coming here if I do not? It relates to the deportment of the international institutions in Sarajevo. I know this is common to everywhere, but there is a particularly antagonism which is evident in the canteen and at the bus stop, a sort of status stratum whereby it is terribly important that these people behave slightly differently to everybody else. The reality is that the people one tends to see are not necessarily the best policemen or whatever they are in their own country. They go to Bosnia to earn a good salary and live tax free and they often treat very intelligent people who cannot get a job as morons. This is one of those vernacular issues that creates a toxic atmosphere.

There is an issue in regard to passports. A Bosnian Croat is permitted to obtain a Croatian passport and most have done so. So, when Croatia becomes a member of the European Union, although they are Bosnians, they will basically be classed as being Croatian. Bosnian Serbs are not doing it quite so quickly but they will catch on fast when it becomes clear that Serbia is going to become a member of the European Union before Bosnia-Herzegovina, which I think will be pretty disastrous for the latter. We will end up with a group of Bosnians who will not have either passport. As a result, there will be a strange situation whereby some 55% of the population will, as far as their passports state, already be in the European Union, while the remaining 45% will not. If members wish to pursue that matter, I can put them in contact with a woman who works in Mr. Sorensen's office.

What I fear most is that awful sight of members of the international community and diplomats shaking Radovan Karadzic's hand under the chandeliers in Geneva, Paris and London during the war being echoed in the peace. Again, most of them were British and perhaps that is why partition happened because that appears to be their modus operandi everywhere they go. I do not need to talk about that in this country. Other great success stories such as Palestine and Cyprus also involved partition. No doubt, it will also be tried in Iraq before long. Anyway, we will not go there yet. For me, there is an echo such as that to which I refer when the Republika Srpska is regarded almost as a nation state in itself, which is what it wants to be or at least something that accedes to Serbia proper. I cannot bear to see those habits of the war extended into the peace. I will say the same thing, very carefully, about corporate responsibility. Companies that go in and do not allow, for example, for there to be a monument on a particular site, have a responsibility and cannot just threaten, as they do, disinvestment.

It may just be me but it takes people in a country such as Ireland, with its very special history, to roll up their sleeves and deal with some of these difficult issues that are not necessarily contemplated on bits of paper. There are not, shall we say, gorse bushes in the way of accession to the European Union on the part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the other hand, however, we must consider what type of country we want to accede to the Union. It seems right that a country such as Ireland, with its exceptional history, should ensure that there is some kind of sanction on a refusal to deal with these basic issues of reckoning.

I am hugely grateful for the opportunity to address the committee on these matters. I hope that any pessimism on my part will not be taken as disrespect because it is certainly not meant as such. I thank members very much indeed for their time.

I thank Mr. Vulliamy. We will now take questions from members.

I welcome Mr. Vulliamy. I apologise for the fact that I was not present for the beginning of his contribution but I was obliged to attend another meeting. I am halfway through Mr. Vulliamy's book and I must admit that I am finding it a very difficult read. I suppose that is to be expected, particularly in light of the matter to which it relates. I actually had to put the book down last night when reading the chapter entitled "Violation", which refers to the use of sexual violence as a political and military tool. I could not finish the chapter.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

I apologise for ruining the Deputy's evening.

No, that is the value of books such as Mr. Vulliamy's. We were aware for a short period that Mr. Vulliamy was going to be coming before us. The committee has a real interest in this area. I do not know if Mr. Vulliamy is aware of some of the work we did in our previous session in respect of the stabilisation agreement with Serbia. Although, he may perhaps have referred to that matter when I was not present.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

Yes, I am aware of it.

There are many big issues dealt with in Mr. Vulliamy's book in respect of which I would like to put questions to him. There are also some smaller issues which are of interest to me. One of the matters to which I refer involves neighbours killing each other and denying that they knew each other. These people are Europeans; they are individuals like me. There is one incident recounted in the book where Mr. Vulliamy spoke to a young man who had gone missing and who was wondering when the next Stone Roses album was coming out. Another incident related to an individual who began playing a Bob Dylan album. That is the type of stuff I do. There is one comment in the book to the effect that everything relating to the war was happening down the river from Venice.

This all provides a stark reminder for us with regard to what actually happened. When Mr. Vulliamy was covering the war, I was just a teenager. I recall seeing television news reports relating to the conflict at the time but the value of a book such as Mr. Vulliamy's is that it makes a stark point to people such as ourselves in respect of what occurred in Bosnia-Herzegovina and to consequences relating thereto.

In his book, Mr. Vulliamy quite regularly returns to a particular, theme, namely, a sense of a reckoning. In view of the terrible history he details in his work, will he indicate how and when a proper and moral reckoning might occur in the region? What does Mr. Vulliamy make of the role of the European Union-sponsored institutions in terms of trying to develop stability and finding a way to move forward? Representatives from many of those institutions have come before the committee. I would be very interested in hearing his perspective on this matter.

My third question is more general in nature and relates to Ireland. What does Mr. Vulliamy make of a country such as Ireland being neutral when concentration camps were in place in other parts of Europe? I am a supporter of our neutrality but I could not help but think about it when reading what Mr. Vulliamy wrote with regard to what happened a relatively short distance away from us in Europe.

One of the aspects relating to Mr. Vulliamy's book is the amount of criticism that has evidently been aimed at him by other members of the journalistic community in respect of the testimony he has provided and the stance he has taken. I am of the view that the latter is an integral part of what an independent journalist and commentator should do. I was struck, I must admit, by the evident resistance with which Mr. Vulliamy met when seeking to do his work. I thank him for coming before us and also for the courage he has shown.

I recall many years ago watching a documentary made by John Pilger about a country that was then known as East Timor. I was utterly devastated by the end of it. Something of the order of one third of that country's population was wiped out as a result of genocide perpetrated by Indonesian forces. I recall feeling a sense of anger at the active compliance of the West - which supplied military equipment to the Indonesians - in respect of what occurred. I discovered in later years that a man called Tom Hyland who lived in Dublin decided to do something about this matter and he had a very big impact. Mr. Hyland was just one citizen who decided to do something and who made a difference. As a result of what he did, independence has been restored to Timor-Leste, as it is now known, and the country is moving in the right direction.

I am pleased that, in some small way, Ireland made a contribution towards facilitating Mr. Vulliamy's work. I have not had an opportunity to read his book but I have read excerpts, thanks to the magnificent Valerie Hughes who is present in the Gallery. She e-mails all the TDs regularly, particularly the members of this committee, to update us on the issues and ensure we raise them at this committee and in the Dáil. Individual citizens may wonder whether this place functions but Valerie Hughes's work with the Deputies proves that it does We are informed by that input and can raise the issue with the Tánaiste and the Minister of State and they, in turn, with their officials can raise them at European level. That proves that when a citizen decides to take an active role, he or she can make a real impact. The fact that Mr. Vulliamy and Paddy Ashdown are here today is thanks to one woman who decided to take responsibility and be a participant in finding a solution and not merely an observer. It is powerful to have Mr. Vulliamy here today.

Moving to the politics of the situation, I would like to get Mr. Vulliamy's thoughts. He will know Paddy Ashdown's view. He has been concerned for a long time. He believes that the way the provisions of the Dayton Agreement are materialising on the ground is very worrying. There is a sense that the Republika Srpska has been trying to obstruct the functioning of the overall state. There is a sense that the Serbian Government has been working with Serbs to undermine it actively in various ways and the more that goes on the more disillusioned the Bosniaks and Croats will become. Will Mr. Vulliamy outline what he believes needs to happen politically? Ireland will hold the EU Presidency for six months shortly. Our Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs is the Chairman of the OSCE. What can he do in that role to lead and ensure those people who are brutalised victims of mass genocide will have their rights honoured and will have a real future with all the hope that entails? How can we get to the point where Bosnia can start to advance its entry into the European Union? I would like to get Mr. Vulliamy's thoughts on that. I imagine if he had a solution down on paper, we would not need to have these meetings. The outlining of his views on the record would be helpful and instructive for us. I ask that the transcript of this meeting in terms of Mr. Vulliamy's recommendations be forwarded to the Tánaiste and the Minister of State.

We can arrange for that to be done.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

I thank the two members for their contributions. Deputy Donohoe's point about neighbours is hugely cogent to the understanding or attempt to understand what happened - that macabre intimacy - and to what could happen next. I thank the Deputy for reading the book. It is not my form to recommend it to anybody - I would not wish it on anybody. There is a story in it of a survivor of a massacre who said that if they had not known these people, at least what they were doing would have made sense to them. It was the fact that they were their teachers and people they played football with who were not only killing them, but jumping up and down on our backs until they snapped. I will not defile the record with too much detail. I do not think there will be another war as Bosnia is too exhausted for it but the fact is that sense is there. There was that recreational aspect to it. This was much closer to the Shankill butchers than the Third Reich because of the recreational, drunken, intimate dark part of it. That is the hardest part the survivors have in understanding what happened to them and it is one thing that we should be wary of in the future. It is the dark heart of this.

Deputy Donohoe's point about the Stone Roses is also important. We must not sit here and say it is that much more appalling that people get killed because they have to live near us and listen to Bob Dylan because one cannot say the same for Rwanda or East Timor, or perhaps one can. That was another issue. After we found the camps Radovan Karadzic's No. 2, Nickola Koljevic, the Deputy President of the then Republika Srpska, took me to tea at the Hyatt in Belgrade which he thought was what one should do with someone from England. He teased me and made the point they were all so worried about Sarajevo, the lovely Winter Olympics, the pretty girls and the university. He congratulated us on finding the camps but pointed out that had carried on for so long and was so near Venice. He said it with a satanic taunt but he had a point. Those points are crucial both in terms of our understanding then and of the problems and risks now.

With regard to how the reckoning can happen, I should deal with that at the end of dealing with the two Deputies' questions because they asked a question about the EU and specifically what could be done by way of a common approach. If I combine the two questions and do justice to neither of them in my response I ask the Deputies to correct me. I will try to address what can be done politically, what the EU can do and what Ireland can do when it holds the EU Presidency. There are some specific issues that can be addressed. One is discrimination in the workplace. This is a basic civil right and a human right, it is part of every UN and EU charter but it simply does not happen in practice. The corporations, whether they are international or domestic, will say that they have in place a diversity programme, an anti-discriminatory policy. Mittal recited it at length when I asked it how many Bosniaks have returned to work at the mine. It was about 50-50 before the war. It said it do not count how many people there are and that it had a policy, but the answer to that question was two. That is a nettle to grasp.

I have touched on the matter of deportment. I do not want to be too vernacular about that but there is a toxic relationship between the expensive dinner eating stratum and the PhDs, and the people who work for them, who get treated rather like servants. That is something to address. We should take seriously the institutions of state, however beleaguered they appear. I am thinking specifically of the Republika Srpska but also those of the Croats and of elements in the SDA, the Bosniak political leadership. We should be wary of that sectarianism, of the partitionists, the people who want to join the EU because they want the money, passports and kudos. What they do not want is that their children would sit in the same class. That is another thing that could be specified in terms of discrimination in the workplace, a common core curriculum, and the teaching of all of this in school. We talk too much about the Bosnian Serbs in Mostar where the Bosnian Croats and the Bosniaks live in a fairly antagonistic relationship with each other. One has two sets of children going though two different entrances to the same school. This is the last country in the world that needs to be persuaded about the evil, ghastliness and the cogent dangers of that. There are these specifics and we can talk more about that.

As regards Republika Srpska, the matter of the partitionist institutions should be challenged. Lord Ashdown has talked about the court and that has been much discussed. The issue of the dead is crucial. Most Bosnian survivors of the war, most refugees or deportees will tell one that the fact they do not have, say, Uncle Ibrahim's body back after 20 years is the most important thing for them. They would say even if it is only his shinbone, they want to bury it. They want to know something about how he died. I do not like statistics. I am a journalist but most survivors will tell one that is the No. 1 issue.

A state-wide missing persons skeleton assembly institution was established, for want of a better way of putting it. Some of the best people one could hope to meet in that country both local and international, worked for it. It has now been undermined by a missing Bosnian-Serb mass grave institution. It booted out the International Commission for Missing Persons from its offices in Banja Luka. Of course we want to find the Serbian dead. This is all part of the reckoning as well. There are approximately 21% of Serbian dead but most of them are in federation territory, by definition. They are not in Republika Srpska, so what is the point of having this institution that is for the Republika Srpska, by the Republika Srpska looking for their own dead in a place where they are not, when they are on the other side? One must again roll up one's sleeves and grasp that nettle. It has to be the state that searches for the dead and reassembles the skeletons. There are still 1,000 people missing around Prijedor alone – 20 years later. That is a lot. Those sorts of issues - the court and the dead – are important.

Reference was made to Valerie Hughes. I call the organisation by its name - Ireland Action for Bosnia. It is synonymous, but I wanted to get the name of the institution back on the record if I may. She is crucial and this is one of the great things about Ireland that it has people such as them – most countries do not – campaigning for the most powerless and vulnerable people. The reckoning is a huge question. I have not answered the question about East Timor but I will return to it later.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

It is a huge question in terms of the European Union specifically but also in terms of the picture generally. Institutionally, it can only be made to work with perhaps a little more of Paddy Ashdown's attitude than that of others. He did say, "I'm sorry, you 90 police officers were committing war crimes even though you are not indicted. I have got all of these bits of paper on my desk. You're fired." To be honest, it will take a bit more of that. If we want a report on the Srebrenica massacre, they come back and say it did not happen and that they had killed themselves or they were the bodies of other people brought to the area. Paddy Ashdown said, "I'm sorry, go away and do it again." That works. He is what he is. He is a military man and all the rest of it but it works. I wish he had done more. As someone whose Bosnian life revolves around the north west of the country I wish he had said, "Omarska, that is ours and there will be a memorial there. You get to keep that bit as it was as a sort of memorial park."

We do not rubber-stamp the easy route. We will discuss giving the dead back to the living and finding the missing. We will discuss exhuming the mass graves until everyone is found. We will discuss discrimination at work and the safety of returnees. The statistics look pretty good. I am being a little bit negative. I apologise, but I assume that the good news is already on the record such as that 1 million people have gone back. It is pretty grim. If one goes to a town near Srebrenica the 1 million people who have gone back are all hanging around on the street all day. The town is 99% Muslim again, as it was before. The silver mines are open up the road from and in Srebrenica itself, but none of them works there. Those kinds of issues arise. The European Union does not do it this way in Europe anymore.

Then one starts to erode it. Even Ireland will not sort out all of the problem in six months but it would be terrific to get some of the snowballs rolling down the mountainside so that others can pass it on and take on the critical mass. I say it in tribute rather than just being a romantic person with the two grandmothers. This is the country that one hopes has the natural instincts to do so. It is the difference between an Irish Bruce Springsteen crowd and a London one. One does not have to put that on the record but it helps my gist.

I have a few questions as well. Mr. Vulliamy mentioned Rwanda. It reminded me of the book by Romeo Dallaire, Shake Hands with the Devil: The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda. One of the themes in the book was the frustration he and many members of the international community that were based in Rwanda felt about the fact that lessons had not been learned from the situation in the Balkans by the international community and that this could happen again. My question relates to the current state of affairs in the world. Does he think it is easier or more difficult for the international community to step in, in particular as a result of our recent experiences in places such as Iraq? Has that been a game changer in terms of international help?

My second question also relates to what Deputy Mac Lochlainn said about what we specifically can do. The committee will visit Sarajevo in early September. We will have many meetings with various local groups and political organisations there. As Mr. Vulliamy is aware, we are taking on the Presidency from 1 January 2013. It is the 40th anniversary, which we will celebrate, but we will also talk during the Presidency about further expansion, not just a widening of the Union but a deepening of it as well. In that context, for me and the other members of the committee, we are keen to see the rights of the European Union extended to other countries but there are concerns that we do not want to go for the lowest common denominator when it comes to rights. We want to ensure that new countries also live up to the rights that we fought hard to gain. Are there specific things we can do as a committee, both when we are in the Balkans but also during our Presidency, to try to make things easier in terms of future expansion within the Balkan region?

The wife of a colleague has passed away, and I must go to the funeral. I apologise for leaving now. I wish to pick up on a point that was made by the Chairman, which is that when one is in the European Union, one has a role to play in encouraging the development of rights and institutions that get societies and countries to a point that we think is better for them. There is a tension between that and also a point made by Mr. Vulliamy that the point of maximum leverage is before a country gets into the EU. I have made the analogy previously that we understand the issue in terms of the economics of the European Union, that unless a country makes certain changes before it gets in, then it will never make them because then it is in the Union.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

It is not just on economics.

It is not just the economics but that is perhaps the strongest and starkest illustration of the phenomenon. When we made our points on the Serbian stabilisation agreement, I was struck that within a few weeks of doing so there was a flood of people coming to this country to address us, including the Deputy Serbian Prime Minister and the Serbian Foreign Minister. My question relates to that kind of trade-off between how one uses the leverage and whether one gets to a point where one says that if people are inside the tent, so to speak, it is easier to work with them and do things than if they are outside. How does one get to that point? I apologise for leaving early. I would love to spend more time at the meeting but I have another duty to attend to. I thank Mr. Vulliamy for coming before the committee.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

My condolences to the family. The Chairman raised the million dollar question. I would be very grateful if the record could reflect the fact that I regret that Deputy Mac Lochlainn has left because he asked about neutrality and I did not answer his question. If I may, I will do so as part of my answer to the Chairman. It is the million dollar question about intervention. The pages of every American journal are replete with the debate between the arguments of Ignatieff, David Rieff and the liberal hawks. Iraq has completely changed the lexicon with regard to this and the notion of stepping in.

For what it is worth, there are many of us who were as passionately opposed to the intervention in Iraq as we were for an intervention in Bosnia. There is a case to answer of inconsistency. It has something to do with the situation on the ground and the potential consequences of intervening. We are not here to discuss Iraq but I believe that intervention in Bosnia of a fairly limited kind, as was shown in 1995, could and should have stopped what was happening. The Bosnian Serbs' bluff could have been called quite easily with limited casualties. That was my judgment, and it was shared by many military strategists.

With regard to Iraq, when I called the State Department in October 2002 and asked for a briefing on the Sunni and the Shia, the response from the man in the press was, "How do you spell that?" It was not foreseen, but to anyone who knew about Iraq it was obvious what was going to happen.

Each case is different. We have gone storming into Libya, supposedly, and now Syria. The Russians say they got tricked into regime change the last time and they will not do that again. Each case is different, and I am always distrustful of the blanket Wolfowitz interventionists and the blanket non-interventionists.

That brings me to the question of neutrality. As a partial answer to the Chairman's question and in an attempt to draw his attention to the record on neutrality, I will not come to Ireland and talk about the years 1939 to 1945 with a Churchillian brouhaha. I can answer Deputy Mac Lochlainn's question by saying my father was a pacifist for two years and refused to fight. He was working in the ambulance corps and in 1941 thought he ought to do something about what was happening and joined up, but I will not preach that. The difference in Bosnia was that the neutrality was an overriding diplomatic cabal that decided there would be an arms embargo and if an arms embargo is imposed in circumstances where the fourth largest army in Europe is up against plumbers, carpenters and school teachers arming themselves to defend their villages, that is not neutral. Dr. Owen talked about the level playing field but if the playing field is already sloping, that is not neutral. The neutrality was different. It was didactic.

I am trying to answer both questions at once. In that situation intervention was warranted. Anyone who knew the ground in Iraq as I did - I had been there in 1991 and had followed Saddam's offensive against the Shiites into the south - knew it was clear that intervention would kick a hornet's nest and result in a horrendous civil war, which is not yet over. Each has its political specialties and merits but the Chairman's point about Rwanda is cogent. It drove him to where it drove him. He could see, and it turned out to be right, that the Hutus could and should have been stopped, and it could have happened quite easily.

In as much as this is retrospective, and learning the lessons from Bosnia, how much longer will the situation in Syria be allowed to go on? At the moment the numbers involved are lower than they were in Bosnia. The situation in terms of who is the opposition is being disingenuously debated, but on their merits these situations have to be judged for and of themselves but always being mindful of the past.

Spain is where all this began and for what it is worth, Bosnia was the Spain of my generation and Sarajevo was Madrid. That is how I saw it, and I think that has been vindicated. It was vindicated in 1995 when NATO sacked the United Nations, bombed a couple of wheelbarrows and Karadic capitulated. That is vernacular shorthand for which I ask the committee to forgive me but it is what happened.

There was a funny exchange in Sarajevo. Micha Glenny had been saying for ages that if the Serbs were hit the Balkans would ignite but Ian Traynor said they would not. When NATO came in and finally bombed them, with minimum casualties, and the Serbs capitulated, Traynor said to Micha, in his inimitable Scottish accent, "Mischa, if you are going to be a prophet, you have got to get it right." Do I have qualified privilege on that one?

You are okay.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

That would be my answer on the neutrality issue.

Are there items that we can address or seek to raise when we are in Sarajevo or during the six months of our Presidency?

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

Yes, including denial of massacres, what happened in the camps, what happened elsewhere, and the issue of equation. In a way we are back to the issue of neutrality. Members will hear repeatedly that terrible things were done by all sides and that it was a tragic civil war. There was an appalling aggression against civilians. It is true that by 1994 the Sarajevo Government had become much more "Islamified" than the country was in 1992. It is true that atrocities were committed by all sides but, proportionately, there is no question that the majority were committed by the Bosnian Serbs and that the majority of the victims were Bosniak Muslims. It is not the case that everybody is the same.

The issue of equation is something to address. I have mentioned concrete actions like obstructing the search for those still missing and buried, and discrimination in the workplace. It is not just the right of return but the security of return. The young man to whom I paid tribute in my opening remarks is from Visegrad which, to put it mildly, is a very uncomfortable place for a Bosniak Muslim to return to. Some have gone back but if members in an individual capacity can get to any of those places they will see they are not nice. There is a woman who was violated all night every night in Omarska. She often sees the people who raped her. She often sees her guards. When she went back the word Omarska was scratched across her door. Outside Srebrenica, a family I met went back and finally got their cow, which was their livelihood. It was killed, flayed and put on the doorstep within a week. These are vernacular stories but it is difficult.

The protection of returnees could be raised. Twenty years later it should be safe for people to go home, but that is not always the case. Crucially, the issue of partition and the state institutions could be raised.

Our own experience of civil war in this country would indicate that these issues can last for generations.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

Yes, and when we were talking about whether the reckoning has occurred, hopefully it will happen because young people will fall in love and start listening to the same music. One cannot overstate the importance of football. The Bosnian football team nearly got to Euro 2012. It was interesting to go to the Serbian part of Sarajevo where they despise the Sarajevo Muslim football team but they could not resist it when Jenco started playing the way he played. The small cogs turn big cogs, as this country knows only too well.

We will not even mention the Croatian football team.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

Absolutely. I watched it in Stoneybatter, and I am still wearing my tricoloured bracelet from that night.

Deputy Donohoe spoke about Bob Dylan and the Stone Roses. Music matters a lot to young people but there must be some bashing of heads together at the institutional level as well.

It is a pessimistic way to put an optimistic point but I got an interesting letter from a very good journalist and good friend, Nijara Ercan, from Sarajevo in which he said that people like me are always going on about the legacy of the war, reckoning and reconciliation. He said that most of their problems day to day are about unemployment, poverty, drugs, knife crime and gangs. He said they are suffering as much as anybody else in Europe with these aggravated aspects of the war.

It was Bosnia's great misfortune, like all the Baltic states, that Europe was liberated from communism at a time when the Anglo-American mechanicalistic extreme view of economics was paramount. One gets the impression that if the Germans and the Swedes had been running it, it would be very different now. Bosnia and all of the former Yugoslavia had a very strong manufacturing base and had they kept it, the picture would look very different. My pessimistic way to make an optimistic point is to say that once the young generation grow up in the very depressing social landscape described by my friend they will understand that they have the common interests of unemployment and trying to find work or, if necessary, of trying to organise their lives without work. These issues will then start to come into play, I hope. It will take institutional muscle, with education, discrimination in the workplace and the hunt for the dead. I am sorry to keep repeating myself.

We had better make sure these things are done in a way that does not entrench the hatred. I fear this is happening in many areas of life, although not all.

Mr. Vulliamy, you talk about children going in different gates to school. Is that widespread or does it happen only in certain places?

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

I wish I could answer that as informedly as I should. In Prijedor returners have gone back to their villages where the primary education is, very much, from their own side. The children then go to secondary school in the town and they pass a monument to the fallen Serbian soldiers as they go into the school, where the war is either not taught or what happened is around them in museums and monuments and is, very much, from the side of the perpetrators. This is widespread in Herzegovina, where the Croats are absolutely determined to have their version of events taught in school. The Bosniaks then want to have nothing to do with that, so the children end up in different classes. That is catastrophic and an example of something concrete that can be done. The dilemma is whether one has more influence within the tent or outside it.

This is a two-way process. With regard to Bosnia, the situation has great potential. The EU can tell the Bosnians they cannot come in unless they are dressed properly, somewhat like the tie I was given to come here. There is the possibility of insisting they put their house in order before they join the club. That is what this committee has sent as a clear signal to Serbia. The same signal can be sent to Bosnia.

On the other hand, this is not a one-way track. Bosnia is not holding out a begging bowl. The European Union has a shameful record from the war in Bosnia. There is a debt to be paid.

Thank you again, Mr. Vulliamy, for attending today. The meeting has been interesting and stimulating and has given us food for thought in advance of our visit to the region.

Chairman, I apologise for my absence. Unfortunately, I was scheduled to attend two meetings at the same time.

We have monitored Mr. Vulliamy's work and his writing. I thank him for the work he has done over the years, which is similar to the work done by William Schuyler many years ago on a similar subject and location.

Mr. Ed Vulliamy

Thank you for the invitation.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.45 p.m. and adjourned at 12.50 p.m. sine die.
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