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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Thursday, 19 Sep 2013

Forthcoming General Affairs Council: Discussion

Before we commence, I remind all those present to turn off their mobile phones. It is not good enough to leave them in silent mode because they interfere with the communications equipment.

I welcome to the joint committee two new members, Senator Catherine Noone and Deputy Dara Murphy. This is their first meeting.

Today's discussion is on the September General Affairs Council, GAC, meeting. We are delighted to be joined by our new Minister of State with special responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Paschal Donohoe. Everybody will be aware that he is an ex-member of the committee and was its Vice Chairman. On a personal note, I must say that while he served as Vice Chairman, he was exemplary in the role, extremely helpful and diligent. His promotion is very well deserved. He will bring to his role a unique knowledge of European affairs, having served on the committee and led the sub-committee that examined the issues involved in one of the previous referendums. While we are saddened that he has left the committee, we are delighted to have someone of his calibre in the position of Minister of State. He is very welcome. He will attend the General Affairs Council meeting in Brussels on 30 September when the Council is expected to discuss EU cohesion policy which, as we all know, has a profound impact on Europe's poorer regions. We would like to hear from him on how he expects the GAC meeting to go.

Thank you very much for your kind words, Chairman. I am delighted to be with the committee members. My appearance at the committee is striking for two reasons - at least, it is striking for me - the first being that I spent seven very happy years working with it on matters about which we were concerned. I had the privilege of being a member of the committee as a Senator and then being its Vice Chairman.

I then worked with some members, most notably Deputy Timmy Dooley, on an Oireachtas sub-committee in which I was involved while serving as a Senator. It is a real privilege for me to be present working with members in my new role.

Another reason my appearance before the committee is particularly striking for me is that today is my birthday. I could not think of a nicer group of people with whom I would want to spend the afternoon of my birthday and if that does not get our relationship off to a good start, I am not sure what will. On that relationship, I wish to make clear a couple of points. I note the value with which I hold the committee and with which I accord my ability to work effectively with members. In this regard, this meeting is an opportunity to speak to members about both the forthcoming General Affairs Council, GAC, meeting and what my priorities will be as Minister of State. In the weeks since my appointment I have had the opportunity to consult colleagues and stakeholders and have a discussion on what I believe my important priorities should be and on how I will deliver on them. That is now clear in my mind and while there will be little in the discussion I will have with members that will surprise or be new to them, this is the first place in which I will have that discussion. I have not spoken about my priorities elsewhere since my appointment and it is appropriate that the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs be the place within which these priorities and ideas are enunciated and I have the opportunity to talk to members, get their feedback on them and hear what areas they believe are particularly important. In the time available to me I also wish to address that issue and to make a few comments on where the European Union stands. Previous summits the committee has discussed have been characterised by the frequency of economic crises and difficulty. Recent weeks and months have I hope provided some signs on where the European Union, its institutions, peoples and economy stand. I also wish to make some overall comments in that regard.

Before turning to those areas, I will take up the committee's invitation to speak about the forthcoming General Affairs Council. I make the point that I am speaking to members a considerable time before the meeting takes place. Consequently, a fair amount of detail will only be filled in between now and the actual Council meeting. This is because some decisions have yet to be taken. If any member probes or asks me about these particular points, I simply will be obliged to acknowledge them and state that when there is greater clarity on how matters have progressed before the meeting, I will be in a better position to address such questions and appear again before the committee.

The forthcoming General Affairs Council is notable for being the first formal General Affairs Council meeting that will take place as a Union of 28 member states. Many members were highly supportive of the accession of Croatia to the European Union and I had an opportunity to meet my new colleague at the informal meeting that took place in Vilnius at the end of August. The value Croatia accords to membership of the European Union is greatly striking both because of the journey it has made to get to that point and because of the value it believes such membership to have. I will take the opportunity to formally indicate how warmly the Government welcomes Croatia to the European Union and state it looks forward to working with it. I have alluded to the point that the forthcoming gathering of the General Affairs Council is not actually the first Lithuanian Presidency event for Ministers such as me. I attended the informal meeting the Presidency held at the end of August and I will return to that meeting presently.

As for the GAC agenda which has been circulated to members, the main item for discussion at the meeting is the cohesion policy legislative package. Members are aware that one of the main roles of such meetings is to prepare the agenda for the subsequent European Council meeting, that is, the meeting of the Heads of Government and State. The General Affairs Council plays a key role in preparing the agenda for that meeting. I do not need to tell this committee about the huge importance of the European Union’s cohesion spending or policy for the Union or Ireland. It lies at the heart of the jobs and growth agenda for the Continent in the future, just as it has been a primary instrument in the past in ensuring counrties such as Ireland can prosper and make the most of the opportunities the European Union can afford to them. In the future it will be one of the primary instruments available to the Union to drive investment and promote growth and job creation. As I have emphasised, the Government is well aware of the value of this policy, its investment and the big difference it has made to Ireland. It is expected that during the lifetime of the forthcoming programme Ireland will receive approximately €1 billion in Structural Funds between the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, and the European Social Fund, ESF. Notably, I acknowledge the special provisions of €100 million for the Border, midlands and western region and €50 million for the PEACE programme which the Government secured in the negotiations on the multi-annual financial framework, MFF.

In the forthcoming discussion the focus will be on finalising the package of cohesion-related legislative instruments on which the Irish Presidency had been leading until the summer. As many members will be aware, during that period the Irish Presidency made significant progress in advancing this dossier and, in particular, the negotiations with the European Parliament. An enormous effort went into this, for which I thank everyone involved. It consisted of almost 90 trilogues under the Irish Presidency alone across the six files that comprise the legislative package. This is very technical with links to the multi-annual financial framework and the logistical challenges of dealing with six separate parliamentary negotiating teams. Under Ireland's chairmanship, the Council endorsed agreements reached between the Parliament and the Irish Presidency on four of the regulations that form part of the overall €325 billion package of cohesion funding. Agreement was also reached on 90% of the key common provisions regulations. In addition, agreement was reached on a key element of the European Social Fund regulation, namely, a minimum share for the ESF. However, our colleagues in the Lithuanian Presidency still have a number of significant issues to be addressed, most notably on macroeconomic conditionality and the performance reserve, both of which are related to the multi-annual financial framework. The priorities for the different funds will be threefold, namely, combating long-term and youth unemployment and social exclusion, the promotion of research and development investment and the competitiveness of the business sector and the promotion of an environmentally-friendly and resource-efficient economy.

The ERDF funding primarily will be allocated for research and innovation, supporting SMEs and energy efficiency, while the ESF funding will support important human capital programmes in the labour market such as upskilling and activation measures. Consideration will also be given to supporting territorial co-operation programmes such as the PEACE and INTERREG programmes. Given the importance of cohesion spending for the growth agenda, I wish the Lithuanian Presidency the best of luck in making progress on this programme. It will be crucial for agreement to be reached on the nuts and bolts behind all of these programmes in order that member states, obviously including Ireland, can get on with spending and investing this money on the important priorities.

The next item on the GAC agenda is the formal presentation of the annotated draft agenda for the October European Council. In this regard, I reiterate that one of the main roles of the General Affairs Council is to prepare the agenda for the European Council. In the outline work programme for the European Council up to 2014 President Van Rompuy has earmarked the digital agenda and innovation policy for attention at the October meeting. In so far as the digital agenda is concerned, members will recall that the compact for growth and jobs sets the clear objective of having a well functioning digital single market by 2014. This is an area in which important progress was made during the Irish Presidency, including taking forward work on the collective rights management, data protection and e-identification files.

We also hosted a very successful Digital Agenda Assembly in Dublin Castle at the end of June. As signalled in her contribution to the Digital Agenda Assembly, the Commissioner, Ms Kroes, produced important proposals on 12 September for the development of a single telecommunications market. These are positioned as a key enabler for further development of the digital economy. In so far as innovation policy is concerned, the key contribution of the Irish Presidency was, of course, finalisation of the political agreement on the €70 billion Horizon 2020 package under the new MFF. The next step is to seek to maximise the impact of what will be the world's largest public research programme. This agenda for the October European Council will be available on Monday. The final item is a possible update from the Lithuanian Presidency on files in the co-decision process with Parliament, which is a useful reference list, but not intended for any discussion.

I stated at the outset that I wanted to give the committee an update on the discussion that took place in the informal meeting in which I participated in Vilnius at the end of August. The theme of that discussion is something that this committee has grappled with and discussed over the past number of years. The two themes were clear and straightforward; first, how do we ensure democratic accountability of European political institutions; and second, how can we promote greater public engagement in EU affairs. These are vital issues all the time but they are hugely important now in the run-up to the European Parliament elections next summer. The informal meeting in Vilnius focused very much on these issues in the context of those elections but also, importantly, in the context of relations between the Council and the European Parliament after the summer elections.

Under the terms of the Lisbon treaty, the European Parliament has been given increased capacity in many areas that matter deeply to citizens, and a subject of discussion was how that capacity would be exercised in the future, what the role of the Parliament would be, how the MEPs would exercise their responsibilities and how Council would respond. A theme of the discussion that took place was the declining voter turnout at recent European elections. There was broad agreement on the need to communicate actions taken at EU level to citizens between now and the poll in order to reverse this trend. The benefits of EU membership are all too often taken for granted - for example, the Single Market and the role that European institutions play in the national economy and in protecting countless jobs across Ireland and the EU. In other words, we must find a way of focusing the debate on the bread-and-butter issues impacting on citizens' lives rather than on institutional discussions that mean little to them. I am of the view that we should ban the use of the word "institution" in public discussions. Given everything in which Europe is involved and given the role that the national Parliament plays within it, we need to refocus on language that is meaningful to citizens. We in Ireland are best positioned to do that because of the role of referendums in our decision making, but we will all be aware that when we talk to those we represent about issues such as the two-pack, the six-pack, automaticity, the Stability and Growth Pact and trialogue, we wonder what they mean to them. Of course we know about the outputs; what matters to people is their lives, their health, their work and their ability to access work. However, I am struck by how much time we spend talking about the inputs and processes involved, as opposed to the outputs of all of this work, which makes a difference to people and which we know they all care about. These issues will also feature prominently in COSAC meeting discussions next month under the Lithuanian Presidency, which I will miss attending, because I always found them informative and interesting. I am sure the committee will continue to play an important role in it.

The core theme of my contribution in that meeting was the role of the European Parliament. The point that I underscored to colleagues is that, while we all appreciate the increased role of the European Parliament under the Lisbon treaty, when a country is involved in delivering a Presidency, the Parliament and the amount of time one must spend with the Parliament become exceptionally important. The Parliament's role in co-decision making and in all the different ways in which decisions are made is immensely important, and a point we made is that this needs to be recognised in terms of time set aside as colleagues prepare for and deliver future Presidencies.

We also had a discussion on the idea of how we can ensure respect for the institutional - there I am, using the word "institution" again - balance laid out in the treaties regarding who should do what and how, and how to ensure that the roles that different persons play are in accordance with the roles assigned to them under the treaties for which the people have voted. This is something on which I and everybody else who contributed on that day focused.

I look forward to attending the next plenary session of the European Parliament in October and to meeting key contacts to underline the priority that the Government attaches to the European Parliament and to the main issues on which it is working that are crucial to the national interest, such as the MFF, completion of the banking union and agreement on legislation that supports growth and job creation.

I have already mentioned the October European Council on the digital agenda and innovation policy for Europe. The themes of the European Council in December will be enlargement, defence and the report from President Van Rompuy on economic and monetary union.

As the committee will be aware, the focus of the European semester in the second half of the year is on national implementation of the country-specific recommendations through the budget processes, which, of course, is one of the reasons our budget will be held sooner this year. The European semester is all about how national budgets are put together and the role of others in having a look at those budgets and understanding the impact they will have on their own economy and the economy across Europe. This is a new system. It is one with which we in Ireland are familiar regarding the discussion on the fiscal governance treaty last year. The operation of the European semester in the first half of the year will be subjected to a review and a lessons-learned paper will be produced and brought to the General Affairs Council in November-December. The Irish Presidency's management of the semester process in the first half of 2013 was successful, but in a new and complex process it is helpful to review and refine procedures for the following year, and the GAC will do this.

On enlargement, the accession of Croatia to the Union was a great start to this six-month period. In the lead-up to consideration at the December European Council, the Lithuanian Presidency will have to see what progress can be made on advancement with Montenegro, Turkey and Serbia. The enlargement package will be published in October, with draft Council conclusions discussed at the October GAC.

Finally, the GAC is scheduled to consider the draft directive on maritime spatial planning in November, with the aim of agreeing a general approach on the text for future negotiations with the European Parliament. The Greek Presidency in 2014 will then lead the negotiations with the Parliament.

I am happy to listen to the views of members of this committee on the General Affairs Council agenda, and to answer questions in that regard as well as I can. I am conscious of how long I have been speaking but I want to conclude with some observations on the areas on which I want to work that I have identified as being priorities for my time in this role, which I look forward to speaking to the committee about in the weeks and months to come. There are four areas that I have identified as being both appropriate to this role and essential to delivering the programme for Government commitments that are laid down with regard to our engagement with Europe and the engagement of our institutions - there I go again - of Parliament here in Ireland with Europe. The first, an obvious one but one that we know really matters, is effective representation through ministerial engagements and public diplomacy.

That means that throughout the coming months I will be a frequent visitor to the European Parliament during plenary session. In my earlier contribution I identified for members the important role the European Parliament is playing and will play. By attending frequently during plenary session, I will have the opportunity to meet contacts in the European Parliament and make advances on issues we know to be important and in the national interest. Alongside this, I will be representing the country with the Tánaiste at the General Affairs Council and travelling with both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to various meetings. In particular, I will be travelling to the European Council meetings with the Taoiseach. I look forward to engaging at these meetings and with public media. In my first foray abroad, when I visited Copenhagen, I spent some of the afternoon in a discussion with Danish media on what was happening regarding Ireland’s engagement with the European Union. I outlined the difficulties we had in talking about the European Union and what we did well when we talked about it at home. I was delighted to participate in a radio interview in that regard and I am looking forward to visiting Lisbon next Tuesday. I will be participating in a conference with journalists on what is happening in Ireland and the work that is under way.

The second area of great importance is cross-government engagement and work. Simply put, what matters very much to all of us stretches across more than one Department in terms of how we engage with the European Union. My colleagues from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are the key people in developing and implementing our cohesion policy. Their work has considerable consequences for other Departments. Work on which we are engaging in the European Union on unemployment, including youth unemployment, and the digital economy stretches across more than just one Department. I will have a role in accelerating the work of our engagement group to ensure we can identify cross-departmental priorities and work on and communicate them effectively.

The third area on which I want to touch is our proposals and scrutiny by our national Parliament of EU directives. I spent the morning in the Seanad debating a directive on child pornography and the dissemination over the Internet of images of violence against children. I would very much welcome the opportunity to work with the Chairman and colleagues on our scrutiny processes, as they stand, particularly the change we have made regarding sectoral evaluation. Transport issues, for example, will be handled by the committee responsible for transport, as opposed to the committee responsible for European scrutiny, as was the case when Deputy Bernard J. Durkan was Chairman.

The final area I have identified is public understanding of the European Union. I want to examine what we are doing in regard to the Blue Star Programme for primary schools and how it can be developed and strengthened. I will be looking forward to many public engagements on how we talk about the European Union to the people, schools, trade unions, businesses and academics. I am particularly conscious of the view people hold on the European Union because I was involved in work on this issue a number of years ago. I refer to people younger than me who may have a different view on the European Union than the one I held when I grew up. They look at debates and events in the European Union very differently from previous generations.

I have identified the four areas on which I want to focus. While I am conscious that there is nothing that will come as a surprise to any of the members, I have made a point of making the committee the first place at which I have talked about my objectives. Thus, members know where I am coming from.

The other area that will be of real interest to me, on which I touched publicly, is the debate in the United Kingdom on the European Union. We should be very clear that Ireland, as a country that regularly holds referendums, recognises fully the right of any other country to do exactly the same as us. However, I hope to work with members publicly on the consequences for Ireland of a debate in another country on future membership of the European Union. What could it mean? What will happen is unclear, for very obvious reasons. So much is contingent on the composition of the next UK Parliament and who will be in government. I will emphasise again that we recognise and appreciate the need for other countries to have such debates and make their own decisions, but in doing so we must not be blind to the fact that decisions other countries make can have considerable consequences for us. We are well capable of engaging publicly in the necessary nuanced manner.

I have outlined the various blocks of work on which I hope to follow up. I thank members for giving me the opportunity to attend. I am sorry I have spoken for so long, but this is my first time here. I will do my best to be briefer in the future.

I welcome Deputy Paschal Donohoe who is present for the first time in his capacity as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs. I wish him well in his role as Minister of State and congratulate him on his assessment of circumstances Europe-wide. I have a couple of questions that I believe need to be addressed.

At the June Council meeting the Heads of State agreed on the issue of youth unemployment and identified certain procedures in that regard. Will the Minister of State comment on the progress made because it affects us all in each member state? If possible, I would like to receive an update.

The investment plan for Europe reflects SMEs and the mobilisation of European Investment Bank resources. It has come to my attention recently that citizens are affected in this and other European countries by the fact that many SMEs have had their credit ratings seriously damaged. As we know, the damage to the credit rating of the country can seriously debilitate its ability to assert itself economically and make progress. The principal of a company or small business, for example, might have found the company’s credit rating damaged and might have had the business referred to the credit bureau, with the consequence that it could not make progress, borrow money or receive any consideration for five years. For five years the company must remain stagnant. This should be dealt with at national and European level. The Minister of State might consider this.

I particularly welcome the Minister of State’s appraisal of the enlargement process and the necessity to keep it on track. He might indicate the extent of progress on banking union because it was mentioned at the June Council meeting.

Ireland has made huge sacrifices in recent years, as the Chairman and every member knows. There has been considerable progress and improvement in recent years as a result of these sacrifices. I hope our European colleagues are fully conversant with the sacrifices made and the progress made to date. An example of progress is the net rate of job creation in the country in the past 12 months or so. It has been spectacular.

The Minister of State has commented on the possible withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union in the aftermath of a referendum. What would be the consequences of such an outcome for the European Union in general, the special Ireland-UK relationship and the common travel area, etc.? What is the potential for damage to the very concept of the European Union in the event that one country is seen to withdraw from it?

In any such situation negotiations have to take place. As the Minister of State has said, each member state has the right to determine its own future in this regard. However, we are in a Union and there are consequences in the event of any fallout. If one country breaks from that Union the concept of the Union is gone and may be irreparably damaged. In my opinion it will have disastrous consequences for the UK. It will certainly have disastrous consequences for this country and for Northern Ireland, as well as for the European Union itself. The withdrawal of a major power from the Union will be hugely negative in terms of the perception of that Union worldwide.

I am sure the Minister of State and others have noticed that there is currently a growth in fervent nationalism within the EU, which is not conducive to a Union. As the Minister of State said, the EU's institutions constantly strive to make themselves more relevant to the electorate. However, it is equally essential that that nationalism be recognised and addressed in some way. If we do have the development of ultra-nationalism in the future there will be no Union because the two cannot co-exist. There could be further disastrous consequences. There are many issues that the EU and its institutions have to address in the near future rather than in the long term.

The Minister of State has presented a lot of interesting information and ideas on how he sees his role. He is as familiar as anyone with the problem of youth unemployment. There is a lack of urgency across Europe concerning this matter. I hope that in his new role the Minister of State will try to tackle that problem urgently. According to those involved in youth work, both here and abroad, many young people are disengaging. There are 2,249 people on the live register in my own area of Tallaght. In the neighbouring constituency, there are 1,223 on the live register in Clondalkin. However, a significant number of young people are not signing on. They are outside the system and are disengaging, which will cause difficulties. I can guarantee that that is happening right across Europe as well. It is clearly urgent that we deal with this problem. How does the Minister of State propose to speed up and front-load youth employment initiatives, including the youth guarantee? How can we instil urgency in dealing with the difficulties involved? Can the Minister of State outline what the Government will do to speed up and expand such initiatives?

The Minister of State referred to social inclusion. Role models are the key for those who are excluded from society. From our local authority work we know what can be done about that. There is no point in local or national government discussing the matter unless they create specific plans. For instance, South Dublin County Council put Travellers in front-line positions such as customer care. People with disabilities are also being put in front so that the public meet them. The Government should come up with novel ideas in this area.

One of the areas we examined in trying to deal with youth unemployment was the use of JobBridge interns. We had the example of 14 Departments employing 228 interns, but not one of them was kept on due to the jobs embargo. What message does that send out to the rest of society if the Government is not taking a lead? Whom can we ask to take the lead if the Administration does not do so?

The Minister of State talked about cross-Border initiatives and he is familiar with the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

The Narrow Water Bridge project is a key component of that, which symbolises the unity of people rather than the divisions between them. That initiative is also important for opening up tourism in that region.

The European Commission has requested changes to budget 2014 after it has been approved by the Oireachtas in October. It is a worrying development, particularly given the extent to which the Commission has been driving the troika's austerity programme. Can the Minister of State outline the timeline for this potential interference in our budgetary process by the Commission? Can he guarantee that any changes proposed by the Commission will revert to the Oireachtas for discussion? Can he outline what the procedure would be if there was a disagreement between the Government and the Commission over the proposed budgetary changes demanded by the latter?

The Minister of State is right about the language being used, including terms such as "six-pack" and "two-pack". People just switch off when they hear that. We do need to engage young people about what happens in Europe but we also need to bring it home to them in their own communities and make it relevant to their lives.

I join with the Chairman and other colleagues in welcoming the Minister of State to the committee. He has a considerable track record and I have no doubt that he will continue his work in a non-partisan manner, demonstrating humility every step of the way. It has been a hallmark of his time on this committee. I am being absolutely sincere about it because for seven or eight years I worked on this committee with Deputy Donohoe before he was appointed to his new ministerial portfolio. We have always had a good working relationship that was based on putting the interests of the country ahead of any self-interest. That is why I am delighted he was chosen for ministerial office. He can maintain that non-partisanship which is so important for this country. We should not divide along standard political lines, which has happened in more recent times, on the issue of Europe. I have no doubt that the Minister of State will continue with the non-partisan approach. There are huge challenges, which he has set out today. They include issues that have arisen at the European Council and elsewhere. I look forward to seeing the Minister of State's efforts in that regard.

The crisis of spiralling unemployment is the big issue that Europe is attempting to resolve. It is bedevilling not just us but the rest of Europe also. The Minister of State has identified the necessity of front-loading youth employment initiatives as well as speeding up the implementation of the youth guarantee. These are hugely important matters. I hope the Minister of State will be able to suggest more ideas to resolve that problem.

He also referred to institutional reform and his work with the European Parliament. It is important to assist the citizens of this State in having a better understanding of what our participation in Europe can do for us. We have been good at blaming Europe for so much, but that will not be a feature of the Minister of State's period in office. I am sure he will explain what we can and cannot expect from Europe. Anything we can do to focus on job creation is critical.

The Minister of State referred to the digital agenda and innovation policy, but we also need to focus on mainstream, blue-collar jobs. Because the central focus in Europe is the drive for innovation and new technology, we often lose sight of blue-collar jobs which are the bedrock of economic activity across Europe.

That has been a loss to Ireland. While it does not fall within the Minister’s remit, we have focused too much on this notional value chain. The higher up one goes, the further one gets from the notion of being a low-cost economy and there is potential for everyone. The fact of the matter is for many there will not be. We have got to bring that back into the discussion. When one raises the digital agenda and new technologies, it can turn many off.

The Minister of State referred to the necessity to deal with the banking crisis and the European banking union. Unfortunately, the relatively slow pace of development in this area is damaging to the perception of Europe. We have identified the lack of a banking union as a significant problem to the eurozone. We have set ourselves the task of implementing such a union but we are slow in our approach. I am not suggesting this is the fault of the Irish but our citizens would like to see a much speedier resolution to this matter. I understand there are significant issues concerning its establishment but we need to see a greater involvement.

I wish the Minister of State well. He has a difficult task but he is the right person for the job. I look forward to him attending the committee in the future.

I thank the Chairman and colleagues for their comments. I wish Deputy Dara Murphy and Senator Noone, the new members of the committee, the best of luck and hope they enjoy it as much as I did.

Yesterday, I read an interesting newspaper article on the UK’s Liberal Democrats recent conference. When delegates get up to speak, a set of traffic lights appear behind them. If they speak for longer than a minute, it goes red and then after another while the microphone stops. This applies to all delegates from councillors to Nick Clegg. This is an interesting insight into how we talk about Europe and the language we use. For example, how did the word “six-pack” become-----

It became mainstreamed.

-----appropriate to mean a set of economic governance procedures that would be used to overview how member states operate their economies and national budgets? I have no doubt during my tenure in office I will get sucked into using the same language. At the beginning of my opening statement, I spoke about banning the use of the word "institution" and then used it throughout my contribution. I welcome the fact that many members spoke about outputs and what comes out of Europe.

Deputies Durkan and Crowe spoke about the tragedy of youth unemployment. I agree with Deputy Crowe’s point about the impact it has on young people for the rest of their lives. It changes the options a young person will have as they move through life. The multi-annual financial framework has set aside moneys for projects, such as the youth guarantee, to tackle youth unemployment.

The reason the banking union is so important is that we need to get credit in Europe flowing for businesses and families. The three elements of the union will be the single supervisory mechanism, which will deal with how banks, particularly those that stretch across many borders, are regulated, the resolution framework to deal with failed banks and the deposit guarantee scheme. We are expecting the Lithuanian EU Presidency to produce clear proposals on the latter element. Much work is being done on the supervisory mechanism and the role of the European Central Bank in this. It is expected to have it up and running at a near and credible date. We expect further negotiations with the European Parliament to take place on the resolution element.

Deputy Durkan made the point about the sacrifice of the Irish people. I will never miss an opportunity to make that point in Europe. Along with commentary on Ireland’s progress in dealing with its programme, we need to point out the terrible sacrifices our people have made in dealing with the mistakes of the past. I always offer the example of the changes in our budgets to bridge the gap between taxation and spending. By the time our commitments are upheld, we will have implemented a total package of adjustment that represents one fifth of our national income. That is an extraordinary level of change for any country to undergo. It is at the very top of adjustments any country has made since the Second World War. I will never miss the opportunity to make clear to European colleagues that whatever progress we have made has been due to the sacrifices our people have made.

On Deputy Durkan's point about the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, it is in our and the EU’s interest for the United Kingdom to be a positive and significant player in the Union for years to come. We have to weigh up the UK’s expectations alongside our national interests. We must also recognise that the European Union cannot renegotiate itself from scratch now. Member states have joined with a knowledge of what it is to be a member along with its commitments and responsibilities.

I have tried to respond to some points made by Deputy Crowe and will return to one more in respect of the role of the Commission. I will touch on a point made by Deputy Dooley and I thank him in his absence for the nice things he said about me. I assure him I will always do my best to maintain it as long as he does.

I appreciate the point he made about my interest in Europe and how I talk about it but that is underpinned by my real belief that if the parties of the centre, centre-left and centre-right cannot come together to deal with the vast crisis we face, who can? What will replace parties in the future if we cannot rise to the historic challenge Europe faces? I am certain that we will and am confident we are making progress in that regard but it behoves us to acknowledge that amidst the debate in Ireland among most, though not all, of us, we agree about more things in Europe than we differ on.

In respect of the point made by Deputy Crowe about the role of the Commission in our budget, this is a consequence of the different governance measures that are already in place like the misnamed six-pack, the two-pack and the fiscal governance treaty. I genuinely take a different view of this compared to that held by Deputy Crowe. I believe the difficulties we have had in Ireland have been compounded by the difficulties in other countries at the same time.

There are two reasons I believe the new procedures are in our national interest. If we act in a way that is in accordance with what our own fiscal advisory council will recommend and in a way that recognises our own understanding of how we need to frame good national budgets in the future, the kind of restraints and oversight that are there will, hopefully, never been encountered. I strongly believe that as we frame budgets in the future in line with suggestions from the fiscal advisory council and the new oversight mechanisms within the Oireachtas, we will not trigger the role of the Commission and other bodies. In respect of the warnings made by other bodies regarding the overheating of our economy in the past, which we in Ireland chose not to heed, if we all had our time again and those warnings were articulated again, we might act differently.

My second point concerning the role of the Commission and other bodies goes back to the point that if other countries have the opportunity to frame their budgets in particular ways, it will, hopefully, prevent the kind of events that have happened in the past from happening again. What we now know is that as significant as they are, if we were only faced with our difficulties, we would probably have the measure of them on our own. What has made the past few years so difficult is the fact that we have had to deal with our own difficulties and the consequences of different countries' difficulties. I believe the treaty we passed and the new procedures in which we will be participating constitute the best and most rational way of ensuring that does not happen again.

I thank the Chairman and welcome the Minister of State to the meeting. In respect of the priorities he highlighted, I very much agree with him regarding the understanding of people's views of Europe and what Europe is about. I am not sure whether this has been adequately done over the years by members of the European Parliament. In many cases, they are more involved in many local issues than in the European project, which is regrettable. It might be interesting to see what words come to mind when one mentions the European Parliament to people. Do they think of austerity, EU directives, regulations or unemployment? It might be interesting to compare that in terms of generations because people of a different age would look at the EU in terms of stability, growth and what it has done for Ireland and other countries across the region. It would be interesting to do that survey and see what results one would get.

I know the youth guarantee is very important. There is a pilot project in Ballymun at the moment. The Minister for Social Protection has stated that the European Parliament and the Commission have yet to reach agreement on the qualifying criteria for funding the youth employment initiative. This is delaying applications for funding so it is important that this is sorted.

In respect of the Cohesion Fund, we lost out in the last round because we were higher than the 90% average of European funding, which is a positive thing. Unfortunately, we lost out in that last round so are there any plans to change the criteria in respect of the next round? Ireland's average figure at that time was €38,970, while the EU average was €33,609 so we were higher than 90% of the European average. Are there plans for that?

In respect of the European Regional Development Fund and European territorial co-operation which is one of the European regional policies and involves cross-border activities and the development of transnational co-operation, we have one trans-European border, which is Northern Ireland as part of the UK. Do countries with large numbers of EU neighbours like France, Belgium and the Netherlands benefit disproportionately, particularly if we are losing out in respect of the Cohesion Fund? The Minister of State might have some views on that.

Is that in respect of regional funding?

Regional funding relating to the European territorial co-operation objective. It is part of the RDF and relates to the development of economic and social cross-border activities. The Minister of State might have a few comments on that.

I welcome the Minister of State and will begin my contribution by reminding him that I think I am sitting in the same seat he used to occupy. When I was elected to the Dáil, I was allocated the office of Deputy Rabbitte who had to vacate it because he was promoted to Minister. With the reshuffle coming down the line, am I on a trajectory? I am a big admirer of the Minister of State and very much value his contribution.

I want to follow up some issues he raised this morning. In respect of language, believe it or not but I do try to read my agendas and the documentation that accompany them before I come here. I started with the 2012 report on inter-parliamentary relations between the European Parliament and national parliaments under the Treaty of Lisbon. I got as far as the three-page introduction. Frankly, for those of us who are supposed to be educated parliamentarians to expect the punter on the road to be able to understand any of the language in it is really pushing it.

I will tell the Minister of State why I am concerned about language and I concur with him. During the last fiscal treaty debate, I was doing tallies. The boxes at which I was looking were those for Cherry Orchard and Ballyfermot. The "No" votes in these boxes were between 80% and 90%. As the boxes were being opened, it seemed that the more one approached the Terenure-Rathgar and Terenure-Rathfarnham end of the constituency, the vote was 80% in favour. It is very telling that everybody is not an Irish Times reader. There is a huge segment of our society that is disconnected from national politics but, more clearly, does not know much about European politics. As public representatives, we are regularly invited to schools to speak to schoolchildren - ostensibly as Deputies. There is an incredible confusion on the part of teaching staff and students as to what a Deputy does in the Parliament and confusion about the role of local government and that of the European Parliament and our role in Europe.

We have to send an important message to the grassroots about our role in Europe and its importance to us as citizens. The Minister of State referred to the blue star programme. I worry that the funding we have successfully drawn from Europe may be absorbed into central government funding in some shape or form so that when it is regurgitated to communities, there is no awareness of its composition. They will think it is coming from the Government. When European moneys are spent on social purposes, we should emphasise that the benefits accruing to disadvantaged communities are due to Europe's role in funding and developing society. I am particularly fond of the URBAN programme in Ballyfermot which transformed the area to the point where it is unrecognisable as a result of the EU's investment. There are other forms of social investment in respect of which we are not able to point to the results of our membership of the EU.

In regard to the international projection of Europe and the role of Britain, Germany and France, certain countries - the Minister mentioned Lithuania - have undergone tremendous pain. This committee will be visiting Latvia, which I understand would put the Croke Park agreement to shame. Pay cuts of 40% were imposed on the country's public service. These countries are suffering just as we are suffering. We should develop greater cohesion with the people of these countries. Other examples are Portugal, Spain, Greece and Cyprus. I understand Slovenia may also be facing financial difficulties. Is the political system so divided, even on national terms, that we cannot create an Irish cohesiveness in the European Parliament in order to liaise with these countries? In other words, the Fine Gael group is affiliated to the liberal whatever and the Labour Party group is affiliated to social democrats. Does that undermine the unity of purpose of our MEPs?

We have been successful in stabilising the euro as a world currency. I congratulate Croatia and applaud the progressive steps being taken by other countries. Latvia will be in the eurozone from 1 January 2014. The biggest demands on the Irish Presidency were growth, jobs and stability. We achieved stability but jobs and growth are the next tasks.

I wish the Minister of State every success on the Cohesion Fund and social funding. Perhaps one day he will report back in regard to my cynicism about the €50 million being spent on the peace agreement. It appears to me that Northern Ireland is becoming more sectarian. It does not appear that the loyalist working class see any benefits. We might also address the divide in Cyprus some day and find out whether we can reopen the port of Famagusta. As Europeans, we are responsible to our neighbours. We are spending a lot of money on the peace agreement and I would like to know where it is being spent. There are dangerous tensions in Northern Ireland between the increasing sophistication of paramilitaries and the likelihood of a bombing campaign that will kill people. That would set this country back years, notwithstanding the growth of business links and the attempts of business people in Northern Ireland to obtain international recognition as a civilised modern region. Where is this money going and is it going to the Cherry Orchards and Ballyfermots of Belfast?

I thank the Chairman for his kind words of welcome and I look forward to playing a constructive role as a member. I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment. We have worked well together in the past and I agree with Deputy Dooley that he possesses characteristics that will allow him to be an excellent Minister of State. He is coming into the position at a time of great opportunity for Ireland. We are in a good place reputationally and he will enjoy legitimacy in arguing his case with other countries facing economic difficulties.

I understand Cohesion Funding has been ring-fenced for the Border, midland and western, BMW, region but we do not yet know the exact amount we will get. It is estimated that we will receive in the region of €1 billion. What sort of process is envisaged for dealing with the money and what is the Minister of State's position in regard to it?

In regard to democratic legitimacy, what is the Minister of State's opinion on directly electing presidents of the institutions? Citizens feel a lack of connection with these areas and that nut will have to be cracked at some point.

I thank my colleagues for their contributions. Deputy Kyne suggested an interesting research project that would ask people what they think of when they think about Europe. The research with which I am familiar includes the Eurobarometer polls conducted across Europe. These polls clearly demonstrate that people's faith in European institutions declined during the crisis. However, I would put this in context with two other findings from the same polls. First, faith and trust in European political institutions are higher in many cases than their faith in national political institutions, although faith in both sets of institutions has fallen dramatically. Second, when people were asked what they consider the right level of response to the current difficulties, many, and the majority in some cases, think the right level is higher than their own national governments.

Many people understand - as we do in this room - that just as the causes of our difficulties stretch beyond what happens within our borders, so too do the levels of an effective response, and they are greater than that which we can influence on our own.

The Deputy is correct to say that the levels of engagement and understanding shift across age groups. For many years the narrative of peace - Europe in the context of the end of the Second World War and the Cold War - kept Europe going. As that began to mean less to some people, a new narrative came along that drove policies such as the Single Market and the euro, which are ideas about a prosperous Europe with economic growth. That vision is now in the difficulty we are grappling with. We all need to work together to come up with new ideas that energise people again.

However, I am cautious about that approach. Deputy Eric Byrne mentioned the Baltic region. If a person spends any time there, they will find that a Europe that is peaceful and underpins security matters to them too. I am certainly aware that different ideas will mean different things to different countries at different times. I am attending the eastern partnership summit in a few months' time which will consider enlargement and our policy with countries to the east, where the idea of security matters deeply for reasons that the Deputy will be aware of.

That said, Ireland and other western European countries must rethink what Europe will mean as it moves forward. We spend so much time talking about having a banking or a fiscal union, but surely we need to spend as much time talking about the cultural values that underpin the European Union and what we have in common. I look forward to having the opportunity to talk about the simple idea that we will be able to face the challenges and realise the opportunities more successfully if we do it together. National governments are at their best in responding to questions such as how to grow a digital economy when doing it together. Finding ways to talk about working together and, more important, showing people that we are doing it is important in coming up with the next set of ideas that I hope will propel Europe forward.

Deputy Kyne mentioned specific ideas about the youth guarantee. Broadly speaking, while there is agreement at the top level about the quantity of money to be spent, we must reach agreement on the nuts and bolts in order that it can be done quickly. On the perceived losses referred to, we have not lost out on the quantity of funding in different funding negotiations. However, as Deputy Kyne is aware, the BMW region will be more developed than it is at the moment and that will impact on the funding levels that it can access. The Government was successful in securing a special allocation of €100 million for that region to allow us to do all we can to get ourselves well placed for funding negotiations and challenges we may face.

Deputy Eric Byrne concurred with me on some of the language difficulties we face. An analogy crossed my mind when I heard him speak. I have no clue about and I am useless at understanding how engines work. Whenever something breaks down in my car, I reach for the manual in the glove compartment with a sense of terror certain in the fact that I will not understand most of what it says. However, I know how to drive a car from A to B. That takes us back to the point made at the start of the meeting. Deputy Byrne is right. I know that he reads all the material and he grapples with the issues in the same way I do, but perhaps we need to spend as much time talking about the consequences of that work as we do about the work itself. The simple point Deputy Byrne made would appear to be essential in doing that, which is that as we begin to translate the agreements the Government has successfully achieved into work on the ground, we must acknowledge that in the work on the ground. In the past we acknowledged that the roads and all the other projects we benefited from were either co-funded or funded from Europe. We need to do the same for the European funded programmes we are talking about.

I note the point that was made about Northern Ireland. There is no need to say that Deputy Byrne and I feel the same way about the issue, which is that we need to ensure that the dark picture he painted does not happen. I want to praise the extraordinary speech our Tánaiste, the Labour Party leader, made recently at the British-Irish Association conference in Cambridge in which he talked about the need to be courageous in how we develop and advance reconciliation and understanding across communities in the North given such difficulties still exist. I hope to play what role I can in that work.

Deputy Eric Byrne also made an important point about the stability of the euro. When the promissory notes were a problem, that was all we talked about. Now that the Government has successfully dealt with the issue, however, no one talks about it. Bearing in mind the position we were in last summer, reasonable people such as ourselves worried that the euro would break up. Thank God such discussions have come to an end due to the interventions by Governor Draghi of the European Central Bank and those of our Government and other governments across Europe. As Deputy Byrne rightly pointed out, however, we took that for granted when it happened. We must acknowledge that lack of confidence in the euro so that we never take it for granted. We need to ensure we do not end up again in the dark days of the past. I remember when my constituents contacted me to ask where they should put their money.

Silver or gold.

Yes, and I would tell them to buy silver or gold or the dollar or sterling. Those discussions happened a number of years ago, but for the most part they have come to an end and that is huge progress. However, we cannot take that progress for granted in future discussions.

Deputy Dara Murphy asked about the nuts and bolts of how the money will be spent. I will be able to answer those questions in the coming months. The negotiations will discuss where and how the money will be spent. For all our justifiable pride about the money we have identified and secured, that money is useless until it is spent. We are anxious, therefore, for those discussions to come to an end in order that it can be spent in the areas we care about.

What was the other question that Deputy Murphy asked me?

I asked for the Minister of State's thoughts on the democratic legitimacy of the institutions and directly elected-----

The Minister of State will have to be brief because we are expecting a vote in the House.

I see Deputy Durkan is exhorting us about that.

Some of the Members have got up too quickly.

It is the gas Bill, so I will do my best to come to a conclusion.

It is an appropriate name.

I return to Deputy Dara Murphy's point about the legitimacy of our national Parliament. A very important part of how we do that is that when things go very well for our country we must acknowledge Ireland's role in making that happen and the role of Europe and its bodies in allowing that to happen. When things do not go so well we also need to be honest. The semester process which will start soon for our country in a different way as we plan to exit our bailout programme is a very good way for us to have that discussion. While some of us, such as Deputy Crowe, might have concerns about how it will operate, at least we need to be honest, as we all would be, about how it will operate. We must say there are vast areas that are still exclusively areas of national competence, and also new areas of supervision and surveillance which will not apply to Ireland in their implementation if we all do the work well. However, that supervision provides a safety net for our country to ensure the difficulties we have had in the past will not be repeated. We are all united in wanting to ensure that does not happen.

I thank the Minister for answering those questions so thoroughly. We wish him the best at the forthcoming meeting and throughout his role as Minister. We look forward to seeing him again before the committee in due course.

I thank my colleagues for the kind comments they made and assure them that I hope to continue the tone of how I have done things in the past.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.05 p.m. and adjourned at 3.35 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 September 2013.
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