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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 28 Jul 2004

Business of Joint Committee.

This is a short meeting to clear up some routine housekeeping matters and following a short suspension, the meeting on decentralisation will commence. Apologies have been received from Deputies Burton, McGuinness, Finneran and Ó Caoláin and Senators Higgins and Mansergh. The draft minutes of the meeting of 14 July have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

Before I proceed to correspondence, as Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service I congratulate the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, on his nomination as the Irish Commissioner and wish him every success. He has been a strong Minister and I hope he brings his talents to bear at European level for the benefit not only of Europe, but also of Ireland.

There are a number of items of correspondence to be considered. The first is a letter from Deputy Ned O'Keeffe concerning the receivership of Tralee Beef and Lamb which was deferred at the last meeting. Deputy O'Keeffe requests that the committee carry out an investigation into the way the receivership was managed, particularly in view of an allegation that the factory was sold by the receiver allegedly without fulfilling a commitment to first consult with the IFA. This committee has no role in investigating the conduct of receiverships. I propose that a reply to that effect be issued and suggesting that the matter be brought to the attention of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. Is that agreed?

No. This is a very serious issue. Many of these people have been short-changed by the bank which pulled the plug on that company. Many people who were supplying stock, materials and goods have been left without payment. It is a difficult issue.

The banks have been in the news all this year but this is the most serious situation that has arisen because much more money was involved. The other issues only had to do with charges which were mismanaged, but on this issue people's livelihoods have been at stake. Many of these people's businesses have been closed down. I suggest that we call in the bank and that we meet the people who were involved in the difficulties. A Mr. Healy is the man who was to the forefront——

To which bank is the Deputy referring?

Anglo Irish Bank. The people who have not been paid are entitled to a fair hearing. They should come before this committee as soon as possible so that we may hear their views and the bank should come before us at the same time.

From the committee's point of view, the only issue is that corporate investigations of this kind do not come within our terms of reference.

I support the proposal made by Deputy O'Keeffe. As I live in the constituency, I am intimately aware of what happened. Almost 300 farmer creditors are at a loss of over €3 million as a result of what happened. The closure of Tralee Beef and Lamb is a great loss to the town and, as an industry, to the north Kerry, west Cork and west Limerick area.

I am also aware of the discrepancies in what happened, where a company trading was being monitored by the Bank of Ireland through which all the payments to the farmers were made. Bank of Ireland would have been in a position to know what was happening and the financial state of the company. In addition, the auditors working for the company would have been acutely aware of what was happening. Nothing was done to prevent this enormous loss to the entire area. It is a disgrace that a company can go into liquidation, hold up and let down a constituency of small farmers, who are supplying that company and who are totally dependent upon it. These small farmers have suffered an enormous loss, so much so that many of them will not recover from it.

I fully endorse and support Deputy O'Keeffe's proposal that this be investigated because there is something very wrong here. The investigation should also include the Department of Agriculture and Food, which had access to and was part of the monitoring of that company. It cannot wash its hands and ignore it.

Over a week ago we saw the results of the court hearing, which declared that the directors are suspended from being directors for the next five years. That is the only sanction that has been taken. Where lie the rights and entitlements of ordinary decent people? It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that there is a proper and thorough investigation into the circumstances surrounding Tralee Beef and Lamb.

I understand that but our committee is probably not the right one to investigate it. That is all I am saying.

Our committee is the finance committee which has the responsibility of dealing with financial institutions.

Not for receivership. The Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business is the one which, I presume, would have a role in that matter.

These people have come to see me about this matter because they happen to know I have an involvement in these kinds of issues. I told them I would make an application here and that I would get a hearing for them. The position is that they are being pushed from Billy to Jack and this is not good enough. We should take the bull by the horns and get this matter on the agenda here. We should bring in the relevant people and, if necessary, having heard their views and the difficulties that have arisen because of their treatment by a financial institution in taking their livelihoods from them, we could transfer it to another committee. Chairman, I am asking you, as an honourable and fair person, to give these people a decent hearing.

I do not want to involve the committee officially in this type of business because it is not within our terms of reference, but I suggest that, as Chairman, I and perhaps Deputy Ned O'Keeffe and one or two other members of the committee meet them informally, hear what they have to say and then offer our suggestion and report back to the committee on where it should go. I still believe that this issue is outside the terms of reference of this committee but I would be willing to meet them informally with a group of people who have an interest in it in the first place and take it from there.

Could we not meet them in private session?

No. I do not think this committee has a role in the first instance, but I think that is a reasonable first step.

I am taken aback. We danced jigs when there were issues in other banks which did not take the livelihood from anyone. Here the livelihoods of people have been taken away and we are prepared to let this bank off scot-free. They roam the newspapers with massive profits and high ratings on the stock market, yet these unfortunate people in north Kerry and parts of south-west Cork suffer.

What other avenue of redress have they other than the courts?

I have not been sufficiently informed on the issues to know the answer to that question.

They are unsecured creditors and therefore they have no other means of redress. They have no other forum. Deputy O'Keeffe is correct. They need to be able to come and put their case, but not informally. An informal presentation has no status. We need to let them come in here and put their position formally and we need to make a formal decision on it.

There are millions of euro involved.

If it is a just case, there is no harm in extending our remit and giving people a hearing. We said at the outset that we were here to look after the public's interest in financial matters.

Should we write to the bank in the first instances, like we have written to AIB on other issues, to get some response?

It is not for me to say. I do not want to dominate the meeting and take over because there is an important matter under discussion here.

We want to move on.

I cannot understand why the committee cannot extend an invitation to the creditors, to the company and to the bank, and allocate an hour in the near future to this hearing. This is our job.

I am concerned that it is not within the committee's terms of reference to undertake an investigation into a matter like this. We get our terms of reference from the Dáil, not from ourselves.

It is within our terms of reference to give them a hearing so that they can put their case.

It may not be a matter for everybody. We will inform members and those who have a particular interest. Does anybody else wish to comment on it?

I understand the Chairman's difficulty. Many financial injustices occur around the country and we cannot investigate them all. Much though we might like to set ourselves up as a fora or might see deficiencies in the law where there are not fora where issues like this can be thrashed out on behalf of creditors, the Chairman is correct in saying that the committee would be going on a journey for which we have no mandate to investigate a case of injustice of this nature. We do not have any powers of enforcement over the various bodies involved.

That is not to say that I do not feel, as Deputy N. O'Keeffe does, that some of the ways in which receiverships are handled are questionable. I would have serious doubts about the extent to which people who are unprotected creditors get even transparency on what is happening, but the Chairman is in a dilemma as to how we advance this. We cannot offer people any avenue of redress here. We bring them in, they will have a chance to talk but they will go home as empty-handed as when they arrived. From our point of view, we cannot make rulings.

Perhaps it would be possible to call in the Director of Corporate Enforcement and talk about the types of protection in place for unsecured creditors and the extent to which this system is working effectively. Deputy O'Keeffe and others familiar with this case could then put instances which are drawn on this experience to the Director of Corporate Enforcement and perhaps we would begin to shed some light on the issue.

Like you, Chairman, I would be a little worried if we set ourselves up as a star chamber to hear cases. On the banks issue, we received a sack full of letters from people who believed they were treated unfairly and unjustly by the banks but we are in a difficulty in trying to hear those.

Perhaps there is some middle way in which we can call in the responsible bodies. Deputy O'Keeffe, and other Deputies who are familiar with this particular case, could put pointed questions based on that experience and see if the law is deficient. We could start to make recommendations on legal change which would give greater protection to such people.

I do not disagree with Deputy Bruton who speaks of bringing in the Director of Corporate Enforcement but we are talking about what happened yesterday and he will talk about tomorrow. These people have suffered substantial loss. I have known these people since my days in the IFA. They are credible people. They are good farmers who have been put out of business. They are entitled to a forum and I think this is that forum.

I would not have come in here with this otherwise. I know the procedures of the House. I have been here a long time representing agriculture and the small business area. It is a financial matter.

I do not understand, Chairman. I wish you well because you may be going to greener pastures and we will still be sitting around this table. There are vacancies being created.

He has had his hair cut.

And a new lovely tie. This is the forum. We spent weeks chasing other banks and they put nobody out of business, but these are people out of business who do not have bread on the table.

You have won.

I take it you might give us a hearing.

Correct. It will be in September.

Could we make it the first week in September or the last week in August? We all will be back from Majorca, the Canaries and such places.

Chairman, will you try to get a deputation from the Tralee Beef and Lamb creditors?

Who is proposed?

A deputation from the Tralee Beef and Lamb creditors, who are being accredited.

I do not want them building up false hope——

No, we are talking specifically about the farmers.

Mr. Healy is the principal there, and I can send a copy of his letter to you, Chairman.

Will the banks be given an option of reply?

We also need an answer from officials from the Department of Agriculture and Food who were present in the factory at that point. This all went on under their hands.

I do not wish to convict them after the event, but we should hear from the creditors and the bank. We should invite the bank also and let it——

We will invite the bank.

We will keep it simple.

If others are going to be invited, it is important that the case be set out first. We should get written submissions in advance.

Yes, this is not a position for us to go on.

It is, so that we can pass on the submissions to whoever else we invite in and say that this is the case that will be made and to which we expect them to respond. That is the first step.

All the beef farmers in Mullingar are being paid.

To conclude on this, we will write to both the bank and the creditors and ask them for a statement——

The last week in August would be fine to bring them in together.

I am not sure of the August date. We will write to both parties in the next few days. They might take a week or two to respond. The commitment we will give is to set an early date. The banks might get solicitors and others to consider their response. We will inform the parties in the letter that it is our intention to invite them to a meeting as early as possible, once we have considered the matter. I want to give both parties a chance to respond first and submit their case to us. We will then invite them to an early meeting.

I do not want anybody building up false hope. We have no legal authority to solve their problem, and I do not want people leaving here saying that it was a waste of time. It is merely a forum for them to present their case. This is not a court in which matters can be resolved.

I am present in substitution for Senator Mansergh. I fully support Deputy Ned O'Keeffe. Whatever else we can extend to them, we can offer hope to the people concerned. They need a lot of hope and encouragement at the moment. While we do not perhaps have the necessary powers, we are at least making a stab at doing something about this.

That is agreed. I want to proceed as quickly as possible because the recording equipment necessitates a ten minute break to turnaround in advance of the next meeting.

There are a number of other items in regard to EU scrutiny. The sub-committee on EU scrutiny has sent the committee a list of documents, proposals considered and decisions taken at its meeting of 1 July 2004. The sub-committee has referred one proposal to this committee — COM 2004/273 — which seeks to establish a harmonised framework for reinsurance supervision in the EU. The Department of Finance regards this as purely technical and as having no major implications for Ireland.

I understand that there are some concerns within the insurance industry, and some member states have raised issues concerning the harmonisation of solvency requirements. A target date for implementation is due in 2005. Is it agreed to scrutinise this proposal in the autumn?

What is that, Chairman?

To agree the EU proposal——

It was a 77-page document circulated at the meeting before last. It is an EU scrutiny proposal to be——

I have the document in my car.

We are not discussing it today. We are just agreeing to consider the matter in the autumn.

What is it about?

It is about solvency agreements and a harmonisation framework for reinsurance supervision within the EU. Is it agreed to consider that in the autumn? Agreed. Is it agreed that none of the other proposals agreed by the sub-committee on 1 July warrant further scrutiny? Agreed.

The sub-committee on EU scrutiny has sent the committee a list of documents and proposals considered and decisions taken at its meeting on 21 July. The sub-committee has drawn our attention to the following proposals but has not recommended that we scrutinise them: COM 2004/327, which provides for a Green Paper on public private partnership and community law on public contracting concessions; SEC 2004/910, which provides for a preliminary draft amendment to the budget 2004. The amendment budget is concerned with financial support for northern Cyprus; COM 2004/455, which concerns the taxation of savings income in the form of interest payments; and COM 2004/374, which proposes a White Paper on the services of general interest. Information on these proposals has been circulated to the committee——

What document is that?

There is a voluminous amount of documentation.

Have they been sent to our post boxes?

No, they were sent out last week with the agenda.

They are probably in my car.

That is a big car.

Is it agreed that, in line with the recommendations of the sub-committee on EU scrutiny, these proposals do not warrant scrutiny by the committee? Agreed.

On 17 June the committee deferred a decision on the scrutiny of COM 2004/227 until members had an opportunity to review the material provided at the time by the sub-committee on EU scrutiny. The proposal concerned general arrangements for products which are subject to excise duty and on the holding, movement and monitoring of such products. This is regarded as being of major significance. Unanimous agreement is required but it is not anticipated that agreement will be reached on the proposal as it stands. The sub-committee has recommended that we scrutinise the proposal. Is it agreed that the proposal warrants scrutiny by the committee in the autumn? Agreed.

Three statutory instruments have been sent to the committee by the Department of Finance. Under our orders of reference the committee has power to consider such statutory instruments made by the Minister for Finance and laid before both Houses as it may select. The time within which the Houses can annul a statutory instrument is usually limited by statute to 21 sitting days after it is laid.

SI 407 of 2004 was laid before the Houses on 13 July. I understand that it appoints 30 June for the coming in to operation of section 52 of the Finance Act 2004 and that the order removes a requirement to present a vehicle registration certificate or other evidence at the first time of licensing a vehicle. The 21-day review period does not apply, as seems to be the norm, for commencement provisions. Is it agreed not to consider this statutory instrument? Agreed.

SI 408 of 2004 was laid before the Houses on 13 July. I understand that it appoints 30 June for the coming into effect of section 53(1)(a), paragraph 1 of the Finance Act 2004. I understand that the order removes the authority of the Revenue Commissioners to prescribe the form and contents of vehicle registration certificates. The 21-day period does not apply, as seems to be the norm in commencement provisions. Is it agreed not to consider this statutory instrument? Agreed.

SI 425 of 2004 was laid before the Houses on 9 July. I understand that it appoints 1 January 2004 for the coming into operation of section 33 of the Finance Act 2004. I understand that section 33 gives effect to the tax credit provisions for research and development. The 21-day period does not apply, as seems to be the norm for commencement provisions. Is it agreed not to consider this statutory provision? Agreed.

Regarding other items of correspondence, the South Korean embassy has asked whether the committee can facilitate a meeting with a delegation of the South Korean parliamentary committee on finance. The delegation visits Ireland on Friday, 13 August 2004. I understand that it will also visit a number of other European countries. It will be very difficult, if not impossible, to convene a formal meeting of the committee in mid-August. I would be reluctant to commit ourselves to an informal meeting unless members are in a position to confirm definitively that they will be able to attend. It would be too dicey. We could be embarrassed. The embassy has recognised the difficulties involved. The safest thing is to pass on this. It is too much of a commitment and we might embarrass the delegation by not having a group here to meet it.

A letter has been received from the chairman of AIB, Mr. Dermot Gleeson, indicating that, on the basis of the progress report on the investigations into foreign exchange and charging issues within AIB, published last Friday, AIB is now in a position to meet this committee.

Hear, hear.

I propose that we issue a reply to Mr. Gleeson confirming that the committee welcomes the opportunity to meet with him and that a date will be confirmed as soon as practical. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will meet AIB in September.

Decentralisation is the main item of our next meeting, but there is one item of correspondence here. A letter from the chairman of the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies has been circulated. Mrs. Barrington has enclosed a copy of a submission made earlier in 2004 to the decentralisation implementation committee and has offered to discuss this submission with the committee.

The committee has already agreed to invite representatives of a State agency within the decentralisation complement which is significantly undersubscribed to a meeting in September. Perhaps a meeting with the association instead of a single agency might give us a broader and more representative perspective. I propose to reply to Mrs. Barrington confirming that the committee would welcome a meeting with the association on a date to be agreed after the August break. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The final item on the agenda is the travel proposal. At the request of the committee the Clerk has examined the possibility of exploring a number of issues on our draft work programme during the visit to Washington DC. An estimate of the cost of the visit has been circulated and there are a number of issues to be considered by the committee. The Irish Embassy has advised that the most suitable dates before the resumption of the Dáil are from Sunday, 19 to Thursday, 23 of September. Is it agreed that a delegation of the committee will visit Washington DC on those dates?

What is the programme?

The embassy is working on the programme, which we will confirm. Having regard to the estimated costs, we will decide how many will attend, and rules governing committee travel require that a proposal for travel by a committee must be directly and explicitly linked to an area of work in which the committee has decided to become involved, pursuant to its orders of reference and in the context of its work programme. We are also required to state the reasons why the travel is considered necessary.

I propose that the delegation explore the following issues which are identified explicitly on our shortlist of matters for examination within our work programme: Revenue powers; tax relief and capital investment; and electronic money transmission. These are issues we can consider as part of the visit to Washington. It is possible that a meeting may be arranged with the World Bank. Is it agreed that these will be some the issues we discuss within our terms of reference on that trip? Agreed.

Travel rules require that any proposal for travel be accompanied by a statement setting out the reason for the particular destination and time of travel chosen. It was agreed that the timing of the visit is determined by a desire to minimise the absence of Members from the Houses when they are sitting. Is it the view of the members that the destination offers us an opportunity to examine the way in which the issues of interest to the committee have contributed to the American economy? Is that agreed?

What is that about?

We must state the reasons why we are travelling, the purpose of the visit and confirm that it is within our work programme. That is normal protocol before any trip can be taken on behalf of the committee. There are CPP rules within the House that we do this. Sometimes other committees do it in private session and move through it quickly, but we do our business in public session.

Travel rules require that economy class should be generally used where practical and reasonable. Is it agreed that an allocation from the travel budget be sent to the working group of committee chairmen? It is a matter for the convenors to decide which members within the Government and Opposition groups will travel and to notify the relevant people. In view of the holiday period and need for visas, the delegation should be nominated as soon as possible.

Members can see the schedule in front of them. For three members to travel economy class costs €11,860, or €17,260 by business class — an extra €1,800 per person. Five members can go economy class for €17,860, the same price as three members going business class. How many people does the committee consider should attend?

What is the duration of the flight?

It could be up to seven hours.

That is not bad. Could I make a suggestion?

We just want to get agreement on this now and then we can start our next meeting in five minutes.

Business class is not great value for a five to seven hour flight. We could take extra people if we went economy.

Yes. Is it agreed to take five members — the chairman plus two Government and two Opposition members? It is a matter for the convenors to notify the Clerk which individuals will be included.

Who are the convenors?

Deputies M. J. Nolan and Twomey.

If we are agreeing to go economy, how many can we take?

I think five might be enough. There may be only that number interested in travelling. Is it agreed to send a maximum of five by economy class? Agreed. The two convenors will consult with the relevant parties and notify the Clerk of who will travel. They can toss a coin, draw lots or fight it out whatever way they want. That is a matter for the two convenors. We will now adjourn before our next meeting.

Sitting suspended at 10.10 a.m. and resumed at 10.20 a.m.
The Joint Committee met at 10.20 a.m.
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