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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 27 Oct 2004

Public Service Decentralisation Programme: Ministerial Presentation

We will now discuss No. 4 on our agenda, the public service decentralisation programme. Since July of this year the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service has been examining aspects of the Government's public service decentralisation programme. At the end of July we met three people working in the academic field, two locally-based organisations with direct interests in the contribution decentralisation can make to balanced regional development and two Departments which successfully carried out decentralisation programmes during the 1990s. We also met a delegation from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions comprising representatives of unions whose members are directly affected by decentralisation. In September we met a delegation of the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies. Three weeks ago the committee met senior officials responsible for the central applications facility, and the chairman of the Decentralisation Implementation Group, Mr. Phil Flynn.

From the beginning of this process it was the intention of the committee that we would hear from a Minister with responsibility in this area. The attendance today of the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, gives us an opportunity to explore issues which have arisen in the course of our previous meetings and to clarify aspects of the Government's programme. On behalf of the committee I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. The Minister of State is accompanied by Mr. Seán Benton, chairman of the Commissioners of the Office of Public Works, Mr. Michael Errity, a principal officer in the Department of Finance and Mr. Paul Molloy, a principal officer in the Office of Public Works.

Before proceeding I propose that the Minister of State make a presentation and that we allow each political party perhaps ten minutes for questions and answers. If there are further questions later we will try to accommodate them.

I wish good afternoon to the Chairman and members of the committee. I am delighted to take up the invitation to talk to the committee members about the Government's decentralisation programme. The chairman of the decentralisation implementation committee, Mr. Phil Flynn, came here on 6 October and gave the committee a detailed update on the work of the group to date. On the same date the committee received a presentation on the position regarding the priority applications to the central applications facility from the chief executive of what was then the Civil Service Commission, Mr. Bryan Andrews.

I do not intend to go over that ground again but I reiterate my view that the level of applications to the central applications facility represents a very healthy base from which to drive forward the overall implementation of the programme. I accept that there are distinct differences in the level of applications from the Civil Service and the State agencies. Mr. Flynn sketched out for the committee why this difference in approach may arise and I do not propose to go over that ground again.

The programme was first mooted by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement in December 1999. This announcement was made in the light of the very positive experience the Government, staff and customers of the public service had of the previous phases of the decentralisation programme. Following the Government's announcement at the end of 1999 the Minister for Finance heard from a very wide spectrum of opinion ranging from trade unions and individuals to groups representing the towns seeking the relocation of staff to their areas. In all, representations were received on behalf of over 130 towns across the country, seeking the decentralisation of either sections or whole Departments to their areas. This response in itself showed a groundswell of support for the idea from all corners of the country. As well as the submissions, the Department of Finance faced a constant stream of parliamentary questions and representations from local representatives anxious for news of commencement of the programme.

The Government could not be accused of rushing to announce the programme. A long period of deliberation took place before the Minister made his announcement of the Government's programme on 3 December 2003. There were two major elements to the decision. The first related to the selection of the Department and agencies to be relocated. As announced on budget day, in selecting these, the Government was aware that customer services should not be affected by decentralisation. In addition, there was a need to look at the core business of the agency and the location of its customer base. Finally there was a need to ensure that the units transferring to each location would be of sufficient size to provide career opportunities for staff either at that location or in another organisation within a reasonable distance.

The locations were chosen on the basis of a number of criteria. These included the need to achieve a fit with the national spatial strategy and the location of existing decentralised offices. As stated earlier, it is preferable to cluster a Department's offices within a single region. From a wider viewpoint, there is a recognition of the importance of respecting the scale and character of locations in terms of their capacity to absorb the number of new jobs involved. The existence of good transport links and the general infrastructural capacity was also an issue in the Government's deliberations.

The Government has started this process, which I am satisfied is good for the whole country. However, it should not end there. I am hopeful that the private sector in its location and investment decisions will replicate what we have done and decide to invest in balanced regional development by locating its operations in the provinces. The Government has acted to facilitate the private sector in this regard, not only by its relocation decision but also by its actions under the national development plan. The constantly improved nature of infrastructure across the country means that the private sector can decide to locate in all provincial areas with total confidence.

The decentralised programme, as announced in the 2003 Budget Statement, involves the relocation of some 10,500 civil and public servants to 56 locations throughout the country. The Office of Public Works has been given primary responsibility for delivering the property aspects of the programme. These include the sourcing of property solutions at the various locations concerned, which mainly involves the acquisition of development sites; the procurement of accommodation solutions to the office and facility requirements of the Departments and agencies involved; the rationalisation and consolidation of the use of Dublin office space, both owned and leased, following decentralisation; and the management of the disposal of surplus Dublin office accommodation.

In late December 2003, the OPW placed advertisements in the national press seeking expressions of interest from those willing to provide suitable good quality modern offices, either existing or under construction, and suitable sites, with planning permission or appropriate planning zoning, which would facilitate the construction of new office buildings. Following the requests for property proposals, the Office of Public Works received in excess of 700 proposed property solutions in respect of the decentralisation programme scheduled for the various locations around the country. Detailed evaluation of these proposals has been undertaken and the Office of Public Works has made significant progress in sourcing possible sites at the locations concerned.

The evaluation process involves the following three-strand approach: an architectural assessment by OPW architects; a valuation process undertaken by both OPW and private sector valuers; and an assessment by reference to the business needs and staff requirements of each decentralising Department or agency. To date, eight property solutions have been agreed in principle and a further 20 are at an advanced stage in the acquisition process. The balance of the sites will be pursued during the coming months.

A broad range of factors will influence the cost of acquiring sites and these include the following: proximity of the site to commercial, leisure and educational facilities; proximity to public transport; access to and from a good quality road network; and zoning for development. The prevailing property market conditions in each geographical area will also have a significant bearing on the cost of acquiring sites. In the circumstances and taking into account that the acquisition process is still in progress, it is not possible at this stage to provide a precise estimate of the cost of the site acquisition programme. However, for working purposes only, an indicative figure of between €75 million and €100 million is being used by the OPW.

The next stage in the decentralisation process will focus on the construction of office accommodation on the sites being procured by OPW. As members are aware, the implementation committee has recommended that, where appropriate, a design, build, fit-out, maintain and finance approach should be considered as the preferred mechanism for procuring the construction of office accommodation. This does not rule out other procurement options and, in some cases, a design-build approach may be utilised.

It is estimated that the construction of circa 210,000 sq. m. of office space will be required to accommodate the total staff numbers involved in the programme. Based on current cost indicators and the assumption that current space norms are adhered to, the indicative broad cost estimate for construction and fit-out could be of the order of €815 million. This figure excludes the cost of information and communication technology and specialised equipment requirements.

The implementation committee will be reporting to the Cabinet sub-committee within the next few weeks with its views on the sequencing and timing of the relocation of Departments and offices, having regard to the CAF analysis, the business implications and the property solutions. The precise sequencing of moves will have an impact on how programme costs will develop over the coming years and the overall estimate for the cost of construction may need to be reviewed when this sequencing issue has been finalised. In the final analysis, a firmer scale of costs for the decentralisation programme will only emerge on foot of actual construction cost proposals being received from the market.

The decentralisation programme will have a considerable impact on the existing Dublin portfolio of Government occupied properties. As already stated, it is likely that in excess of 200,000 sq. m. of office accommodation will be required in the regions for staff moving out of Dublin. As a consequence, a broadly equivalent amount of space will no longer be required in the Dublin area and will fall to be disposed of. The space to be disposed of will consist of both leased and State-owned properties and the precise mix has yet to be established. However, at this stage, it is likely that several prominent State-owned properties in the city will fall to be sold. The process of disposing of State properties has already begun and so far this year some €85 million in proceeds have been secured from property sales.

It is ultimately estimated that upwards of €400 million can be generated from the sell off of surplus State properties post-decentralisation. This is very much a broad estimate and the precise figure will depend significantly on the prevailing property market conditions applying at the time of the property sales involved. A managed approach will be taken in scheduling the Dublin property disposals to avoid flooding of the property market, which, if it were to happen, could prove detrimental to the disposal values realised. Apart from the sell off of surplus State-owned properties, the disposal programme also will involve the early surrender of a number of leased properties which are currently occupied by Government Departments and offices earmarked for decentralisation.

It is clear that the delivery of the property element of the decentralisation programme amounts to a major challenge for the OPW. It will require a concentrated effort from all areas of the OPW in the months and years ahead. I am confident that this effort will be forthcoming and that progress to date, which has been significant, will be maintained.

I thank the Minister of State. I accept that the figures are only projections but this is the first occasion on which, as far as I am aware, the amount of €815 million has been mentioned. Given that 10,000 staff will be decentralised, this comes to a cost of €81,500 per staff member in respect of office accommodation. The Minister referred to design, fit-out and finance. Over what period will the money to which I refer be spent?

The figure of €815 million would come into play if we were to proceed, based on current industry cost norms, to provide all the accommodation immediately. That would be the cost if we were to pay for it all on a once-off basis.

It would be a once-off cost.

If we were to embark on a design-build-finance approach or pursue a full PPP, those expenses would relate to the period the project took to complete.

Are the National Treasury Management Agency or the National Development Finance Agency involved in assessing the financing relating to the various decentralisation projects?

If we were to embark on a PPP, they would be directly involved in providing advice with regard to the viability thereof.

I wish to pursue that issue. As the Chairman stated, €815 million is the Department's estimate of the cost of the new accommodation. I am surprised that the figure for the proceeds from the sale of Dublin property — which one would expect to be much more valuable — is only €400 million. There will, therefore, be a net cost of €415 million. I had thought the Minister of State indicated at budget time, when the figure of €20 million was estimated as the cost to OPW of this move, that the sale of property in Dublin would well meet the costs involved. There now appears to be a deficit of €400 million. Has something happened in the intervening period which has resulted in this outcome?

No. The €815 million to which I referred is the once-off cost of providing all the buildings at the same time. I do not expect that will be the case.

As regards the figure of €400 million from property sales, when we investigate the remaining State property portfolio in Dublin, we will choose to sell a mix of State owned buildings and surrender a mix of leases, on which we will have to make an estimate. The figure of €400 million applies to the buildings we would sell. The leases, which account for €100 million per annum, would deliver another annual saving.

The Office of Public Works will acquire 210,000 sq. m. of additional office space. Is the estimate of office space to be released in Dublin comparable?

Yes, that is the plan. The mix will be between the buildings we own and those we lease.

The Minister of State said the locations were chosen on the basis of a number of criteria, including the fit with the national strategy, the location of decentralised offices and their customer base. Was he a party to the evaluation of the locations? Is this evaluation available in written form? Was the outcome of this work included in a Government memorandum and circulated, as is the norm when decisions of this nature are taken?

Is the Deputy referring to the criteria regarding the evaluation and selection of sites?

No, my questions refer to the selection of locations for agencies, in other words, the 77 decentralisation projects, of which 30 are in respect of semi-State bodies and 47 in respect of public bodies.

That was a Government decision announced in the budget.

There was no Government memorandum.

The decision followed the normal process for budget decisions. I assume a memorandum was circulated to the Cabinet prior to the budget meeting.

Is the Minister of State's assumption correct? Was a Government memorandum circulated to other Departments, as is the norm, to give them an opportunity to consult their agencies, reflect on the proposals and issue advice to the Government in a timely manner to ensure no foolish choices were made?

I am not a member of the Cabinet. I understand different criteria are applied to budget decisions and the budget in question would have been discussed in the usual manner by the Cabinet.

Precisely. Is it not the case that the procedures governing budget decisions are covered by secrecy of tax related measures, a special procedure which avoids the circulation of memoranda to Departments? Did the Government not use the budget as a way of pushing through decentralisation without the standard scrutiny which applies to Government decisions of this nature?

As I stated, I am not a member of the Cabinet. I am not, therefore, in a position to comment on what took place at Cabinet.

Perhaps the Minister of State will consult the relevant member of Cabinet and respond in writing.

As I stated, the decentralisation policy has been on the books since December 1999. In that period 103 different locations made propositions to the Minister for Finance with regard to——

I am aware of that. The central point I am trying to explore is whether it is an abuse of Government power not to use the normal procedures which ensure proper scrutiny of decisions. While the Minister of State is not in a position to answer this question, it is my view that the proper procedures were not in place, no Government memorandum, strategy statement or human resources plan was drawn up and no business case was made for the individual changes. As a result we are left with a series of decisions, many of which will not be viable.

Only 8% of staff of State agencies are willing to move with their respective agencies. I understand the equivalent figure in the Civil Service is approximately 20%. How does the Government intend to deal with the facts that more than 90% of the staff of State agencies will not move and it will have to replace 80% of Civil Servants affected by the process? Has it anticipated the impact on the delivery of service such a massive churning of staff will have?

What are the Government's plans for promotion and new recruitment? In the case of successful decentralisation projects, about which the joint committee has been informed, 50% of positions were filled either by new promotions or new recruits, yet it appears to be Government policy to cap all new recruitment and not create new promotional opportunities. How does it intend to deliver in view of the personnel constraints it has imposed and past experience with decentralisation projects? If it must replace approximately 80% of staff, it can only achieve this through promotions and new recruitment. How does the Government propose to square that circle?

In principle, I see no reason State agencies cannot operate outside Dublin. It has been clear from the outset that specific issues would arise regarding State agencies, which are different from Civil Service Departments in that inter-agency transfers are not an option. Civil servants expect to be able to transfer to other parts of the Civil Service and have a history and tradition of decentralisation. While I accept that certain issues arise with regard to the State agencies and must be addressed, the way to do so is to tease out the problems and develop long-term solutions in consultation with the agencies in question.

Will some of the projects be abandoned if they are not feasible? Will others take much longer than three years due to the long-term strategy to which the Minister of State has alluded? For example, not a single probation officer is willing to move to Navan, which is a great distance from where most of the client base of probation officers is located. Similarly, it appears there was no proper foundation for moving Bus Éireann jobs to Mitchelstown. Does the Minister of State accept that some of the proposals are not feasible?

Does his response apply to the relocation of Bus Éireann to Mitchelstown?

As regards Bus Éireann, the Budget Statement referred to a figure of 200 places. This figure has since been amended in the CAF to 90 places. Some minor adjustments have been made and in some cases the CAF figures are lower than those in the Budget Statement, although it also includes substantially higher figures in other cases. There are clearly issues to be resolved. The CAF was not acceptable to State agency employees, nor did it fit as well as it did with regard to general Civil Service employees, which is the reason we have a much more substantial take-up among the latter.

Therefore, the process will need to be changed and delayed.

No, as I stated——

The Minister of State said the process would be completed on time within the three year framework.

If the Deputy gives me an opportunity, I will attempt to answer the question. I mentioned that the implementation group under Mr. Phil Flynn will shortly make a recommendation to the Government which will take into account sequencing. It will announce a number of——

Mr. Flynn indicated to the joint committee that he believed some elements of the plans were not feasible.

I read Mr. Flynn's comments carefully. He said the process is feasible in all cases.

He did not say that.

He said there were difficulties.

He said some of the plans were not feasible. We can check the record.

One of the first steps we took was to seek an implementation plan from all affected Departments. Each Secretary General was asked to identify risks which could arise as a result of decentralisation and these have been taken on board. The Secretaries General were also asked to produce mitigation plans.

Has the Government taken on board the risk that no probation office staff will move to the proposed new location? How does it propose to address this risk? We will suddenly have no experienced probation officers.

While I do not want to pre-empt the recommendations of the Flynn group in terms of sequencing, I doubt the probation board will be in the first group to be announced because certain issues must first be resolved.

The Minister of State is hiding behind the Flynn group in respect of the many issues which arise concerning the practical implementation of the decentralisation process. How does the Government propose to deal with those who will not move as the relocation phase approaches? Will there be shadow posts where people are occupying the position of a map maker in the Ordnance Survey, for example, who will continue to operate somewhere in Dublin although the work is now located somewhere else? How does the Minister propose to deal with those people? What job offers does he propose to make to them? Will they be compelled to move at that point or will the Minister continue to accommodate them in these shadow posts?

The Government had the good sense to appoint an expert implementation group under Mr. Phil Flynn, who has substantial experience both in business and in trade unions. He also has——

Is the Minister telling the committee that Ministers will not be accountable for these questions, that it will hide——

——behind an implementation committee and the Oireachtas will not be able to scrutinise any of these questions?

Chairman, I am not getting a word in edgewise here.

Let the Minister reply.

He is answering nothing.

The expert implementation group was set up to make recommendations to Government. The decisions will be taken by the Government, as was the original decentralisation decision. That decision is being implemented vigorously. The decentralisation implementation group is composed of Seán Benton, the chairman of the Office of Public Works, OPW; the Secretary General of the Department of Finance; Phil Flynn; experts on property; experts on communications and a former chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, who has substantial experience with a successful decentralisation of his Department.

It is an expert group established by the Government to make recommendations to the Government. I commend the members of the group on their work so far. They are working intensively and will bring forward their recommendations. Initially, they will deal with timing and sequencing. The group is dealing with the different issues and is liaising through the OPW and the Department of Finance and directly with Secretaries General of the Departments to deal with issues, concerns and difficulties.

Is it not a concern for the Minister that a string of experts have come before this committee and indicated that the decentralisation decision was not built on a proper foundation and risks damaging the operation of Government and the quality of delivery? Even ardent supporters of decentralisation, among whom I include myself, are extremely anxious about the proposals that have been put forward. Does that surprise the Minister?

It surprises me that the Deputy would have that interpretation of the presentations made to the committee. I went through them in great detail during the last couple of days and read all the transcripts. The first three experts, who represented the universities, had diametrically opposing views as to whether it was a fabulous or not so good idea. Doctors differ and patients die. There were different angles to the different presentations made to the committee. However, the Government is determined. It accepts that there are difficulties and challenges but they are being dealt with in every case. I am confident that we will find solutions to all the difficulties.

The trouble is that the patients who will die in this case are people who depend on public services. It will not be the people who travel in State cars.

It must be reiterated that the absolute priority of the Government, the Department of Finance and the Flynn group is maintaining services to the public. Before the Flynn group makes its recommendations, it will be satisfied of that and Mr. Flynn made that clear to the committee. He is dealing with three areas — people, business and property. First, the people need to be available to go, and a substantial number of Departments are over subscribed. Second, he will look closely at the efficiency of the operation and that it will be able to deliver services to the public. Finally, the OPW must have a property solution if the service is moving. He outlined that to the committee. He is linking those three areas in terms of deciding what will be prioritised in the first sequence of movement.

If I understood the Minister of State correctly, he said that he assumed a memo was sent to Government about decentralisation. Does he, as Minister of State, have written delegation of functions and does that include decentralisation? It is commonplace for Ministers of State to have identified delegation of functions. It is the way Government works. They are normally written down. Do the Minister of State's delegated functions include decentralisation?

The delegated functions clearly include responsibility for the Office of Public Works and that office has responsibility for the property solutions for decentralisation in the 55 locations.

The Minister of State made a number of statements. If the Minister of State has the delegated functions and he said he assumes that a memo was sent to Government, why should the Government withhold the memo from the Minister of State and what steps has he taken to access all the papers relating to decentralisation, including the memo for Government?

As I said earlier, I am not a member of the Cabinet and I am not familiar with how Cabinet business is conducted. It is generally confidential and there is not a high level of disclosure. The budget is different in terms of the need for secrecy in advance of budget announcements.

The Minister was putting up posters.

The fact that this was a budget announcement meant it was not handled in the normal way by the Cabinet. With regard to it being a surprise, the Minister, Deputy McCreevy, announced in December 1999 that it was Government policy. I understand decentralisation was also part of the rainbow Government policy. It should have not come as a surprise.

As to whether a memo was circulated, I assume the normal procedures relating to the Cabinet committee in advance of the budget were pursued.

I have never heard of a situation where a Minister of State with delegated functions, as the Minister confirms he has with regard to the OPW, has never seen a memo on a Government policy which the Minister of State is expected to be in charge of executing. That is extraordinary.

I refer the Deputy to the budget for 2004 which provides full details about the decentralisation package.

No, it does not.

The statement the Minister of State has produced today is a disgrace. It contains almost no detailed financial information about the costs of the decentralisation programme.

I thought it was specific.

It is not specific. We received a report, dated September 2004, which on a town by town and Department by Department basis gives us chapter and verse about who has opted for what and who is to go where. The minimum the finance committee is entitled to is a matching of the layout in this report on who is going where with what that will cost.

I have given a definitive figure. We will require 210,000 sq. m. of accommodation. In theory, there will be 55 buildings in 55 different locations. They will be open to full public scrutiny and tender. I am sure there will be different tenders and that some people will get higher rates and so forth. Going on industry norms, however, we estimate it will cost €815 million to provide that amount of accommodation.

Why can the Minister not give the committee a breakdown of that figure? Why will he not do so? This is the finance committee. We have already heard from Mr. Flynn the ball park figures the Minister is giving. Furthermore, Mr. Flynn, in his presentation to the committee as chairman of the implementation committee, referred to the issue of sequencing. I asked Mr. Flynn about this. The Minister said that the programme of decentralisation would be significantly under way, if not completed, by the time of the next general election, that is, 2007. Mr. Flynn sat exactly where the Minister of State is sitting and said no. In fact, he anticipated a much longer period of sequencing, partly based on the data contained in this report which in many cases indicated, particularly where State agencies were involved, that few people had offered to move.

I do not know why New Ross has fared so badly but relatively few staff indicated a desire to go there. It has for many years been an unemployment black spot, with one of the highest unemployment rates in the country, and badly needs to do well in the decentralisation process. However, Mr. Flynn told the committee the sequencing process in regard to the State agencies was such that much of this was unlikely to happen for a very long time.

What are the revised proposals in regard to specific towns and institutions? What is the take-up by expert and general staff in specific institutions? Deputy Richard Bruton gave the example of the probation and welfare service and we can pick towns to which the number wishing to transfer is very low. Does the Minister of State want to revise what he told the committee? Will he tell us what is proposed by the Government in the context of what has happened?

I have other questions. In his presentation Mr. Flynn stated that in the surveys of staff child care emerged as a very important issue. He announced, presumably on behalf of the implementation committee, that funding under the national development plan, including from the equal opportunities child care programme, would be available for the selected towns and locations to utilise. What does this leave for poorer areas of towns and cities which have received practically nothing in the dispersal of equal opportunities child care programme funding to date? Will the Minister of State make a statement on the impact on the take-up of child care funds if, as it now appears, the bulk of the remaining child care funds will be used to support the decentralisation programme? What does this say to poor communities in Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Galway which will not now have funds to take up? We deserve an answer on this issue in the context of the statement made by Mr. Flynn when he attended the committee.

The Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention in his recent report to an episode involving the Dublin Milk Board where employees were left without work as a consequence of the changes to the milk board——

Can we keep to the subject?

What about the employees who have indicated in this report that they are not moving from Dublin? Can the Minister of State provide figures for the cost of allowing these employees to stay in Dublin, including the ongoing cost of public services? The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Dublin Milk Board concerned eight employees who had served over a long period. The September report deals with many thousands of employees who do not wish to move out of Dublin, despite the fact that their institutions are moving. Will the Minister of State outline the cost in regard to such employees, particularly specialists staying in Dublin? Will this cost be borne out of general taxation?

The overall costs will only be known when tenders for buildings are advertised and all sites are acquired. We have attempted to be as fair and straightforward as possible and to use industry norms. The figure we used was 20 sq. m. per person, which is an acceptable area size. The cost of this can range, in terms of the provision of office space, from €1,450 to €2,000. That is why we picked the figure of €815 million as a halfway point between the possible figures. To evaluate an area which is to hold 260 staff, one would multiply 260 by 20 sq. m. or the cost per person.

On that point——

The Minister of State was responding. Let him complete his reply.

He is a big boy who can look after himself. He has been down on the farm.

I could have continued by reading a list of the 55 locations and the actual amounts for each but I did not think that would be a good use of the committee's time.

Could the Minister of State supply——

The Deputy should let him finish. She can then come back in.

It is a simple mathematical calculation. If the Deputy needs assistance to work out the cost for individual locations, we will be able to provide it. I have made it clear the figures represent an estimation. However, we can be definitive in this regard because there is little risk involved in estimating construction costs.

With regard to the Flynn recommendation that we provide child care facilities, it is our intention to do so. Whether the Deputy is in favour of such a policy, it is the intention to provide such facilities in the newly decentralised offices.

Mr. Flynn stated the funding for child care facilities would come from national development plan moneys and the equal opportunities child care programme fund. My point is that the fund has been very difficult for poor communities to access. If the fund, in its remaining phases, is largely to be taken up, as Mr. Flynn announced, by the public service in support of decentralisation, what are poor communities with no child care facilities supposed to do? This is a perfectly reasonable question. I support the provision of child care facilities. If the Minister intends to use the national development plan funds for Civil Service decentralisation, what happens to child care funds for the rest of the country?

We have a national policy on the provision of child care support. In terms of the new facilities that will be provided by the Office of Public Works for the decentralised Departments, I expect they will in all cases include crèche facilities, the management of which is a matter to be worked out. However, I do not expect the issue to have a negative impact on the existing fund.

Mr. Flynn stated funding would come from the national development plan fund. Will the Minister of State tell the committee from where the money is coming? Mr. Flynn made an announcement that this was an important heading in discussing implementation. He stated the funding was coming from these funds. Is the Minister of State aware of this?

I am aware that it is our brief to provide the buildings and that we will provide crèche facilities.

Is the funding coming from national development plan funds?

The €815 million I have to use will cater for crèche facilities.

At this stage I call——

I asked several other questions.

The Deputy will have an opportunity——

The ten minutes are up.

I began just after 4.20 p.m. The Minister of State spoke——

The Deputy began at 4.12 p.m. and it is now 4.28 p.m. The Deputy took 16 minutes. There will be an opportunity for her to come back in. I call Deputy Finneran. Will he share time with Deputy O'Keeffe?

Yes. Deputy O'Keeffe will take the south and I will take the midlands.

I welcome the Minister of State and compliment him and the Government on a very innovative programme of decentralisation, announced in the budget of 2003. If I were to take any measure announced by the Government in my 25 years in political life, this has been received better than any other proposal of which I know. It is the most comprehensive regional development programme I have experienced in that period and the public is very much in favour of it. In answer to what has been said by Opposition spokespersons throughout 2004, I am glad to say the Civil Service is also in favour of it, as evidenced by the fact that more than 9,000 civil servants have applied to relocate. Those are two important components of the programme.

I am amazed at the nit-picking in which the main Opposition spokespersons have engaged in implying that staff will be forced to change jobs. It should be remembered that this is a voluntary scheme. This has been reiterated by the Minister and others. It is extraordinary that in Dublin the main Opposition parties question the programme to an extent that implies they wish it was not going ahead. However, their members do not say this publicly in their constituencies for fear of being politically offside. Publicly they are totally in support of the programme. They announce it regularly in local newspapers and on local radio and call for its early implementation. Despite this, for more than 12 months their spokespersons at this committee have been nit-picking and talking out of both sides of their mouth.

It is proposed to transfer some 1,200 civil servants to the area I represent, Roscommon-Longford up until now — Roscommon-South Leitrim in the future — and the midlands generally. They eagerly await implementation of the programme. I, therefore, ask the Minister of State to consider the region for inclusion in the first phase. Adequate numbers have indicated they want to relocate there and there is an oversupply of interest in the provision of buildings and sites.

Comment has been made about the child care programme. For the committee's information, all of the buildings put up recently by the Office of Public Works have a child care facility. The one that houses the General Register Office in Roscommon town has a child care facility for 24 children. That is the proper way to proceed. Such a facility should have been provided in Leinster House for Members and staff. This should be a priority for the OPW, the Department of Finance and, perhaps, the new body dealing with the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am glad the OPW is being innovative in this area.

The areas which are to benefit in the midlands region are Roscommon town, Carrick-on-Shannon, Longford, Athlone and Ballinasloe.

The Minister of State should right a wrong and include Tuam.

I spoke about tax breaks and the good reasons they were brought forward, particularly the rural renewal scheme. If we are to reach a balance, programmes such as the decentralisation programme are necessary.

Does the Deputy have a question?

It took initiative on the part of the Government to introduce a decentralisation programme which should be implemented because the decision, announced in December last year, has been backed up the civil servants. If the State agencies have problems, they can be dealt with along the way.

The decentralisation programme can be implemented immediately in several areas and the sooner it is implemented in the midlands region, in particular my constituency of Roscommon-Longford, the better. The people of Roscommon and Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath and east Galway are waiting and willing to implement this Government decision. There are very few questions being asked by the people in that region like the ones being put here today, many of which could be considered to be obstructive to the Government's intention to decentralise. There is no opposition whatsoever in the region to the decentralisation programme. As public representatives, we are very pleased that so many civil servants have identified the towns in the region as ones to which they wish to relocate. The Minister of State should get on with the job and implement the Government decision as soon as he can. He will have the support of the general public.

I welcome the Minister of State who has been here often before. I praise him for being so available.

The decentralisation programme was the brainchild of the former Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, whom I wish well in his new portfolio.

He might be back.

There is no vacancy.

I am not as positive about decentralisation as Deputy Finneran. Having read today's newspaper I am taken aback because all of the currently designated towns are in the midlands and the most prosperous area of this island in the environs of Dublin. They include Drogheda and Tullamore, in the Minister of State's area, for which I do not blame him because he must be loyal to his constituency. The Chairman will also be delighted by the inclusion of Trim, Newbridge and Longford, a town I would have exempted as it has been included in the RAPID programme.

The southern region is experiencing employment difficulties and the purpose of decentralisation should be to help towns in such areas and give employment in order to create a prosperity they have experienced in the past. It was suggested that Bus Éireann be relocated to Mitchelstown. There is not a pup's chance of it relocating to Mitchelstown because it is being privatised. Having marketed and sold the idea as a Government Deputy, I found it misleading that it was included in the list. Mitchelstown has been devastated through rationalisation and what is happening in the food industry. There will be practically no jobs where there were once 1,300.

Mallow is a similar town and has been designated as the location for a semi-State organisation. However, there has been no movement. While I do not wish to be too parochial, I would like to see some action. I would like to see a move away from the prosperous environs of Dublin where we are told more than one third of Irish people will live in the not too distant future. Dublin is not Ireland. Towns like Newbridge — satellite towns of Dublin — are not Ireland. As a rural person, the Minister of State should deal with rural areas and towns.

Those are my concerns about this issue. There are three towns in my constituency which have been designated under the decentralisation programme. I do not know when it will happen or what Government will be in power when it does.

I also want to question the value-for-money aspect of public private partnerships. While it has become Government policy, we have not teased it out sufficiently at this committee. It is always better to handle business and to raise and provide finances oneself. If one gives the job to someone else, one must pay handling charges. I do not agree with this. Recently I was asked by an international organisation whether public private partnership was worthwhile for us. It will prove not to be. That is my value judgment.

I thank Deputies for their positive comments. In reply to Deputy Finneran, the massive improvement in balanced regional development and the impetus and drive decentralisation will give to local towns have been dismissed and ignored by some commentators. However, they are real. That is why there is such an appetite in provincial Ireland for decentralisation and it is our intention to move the project along quickly.

In reply to Deputy O'Keeffe, newspaper reports I read today speculated as to what might happen, extrapolated from the CAF and so on. As Mr. Flynn said and as has been said several times since, in terms of his decision——

There is no point in blaming the newspaper.

I was not. I am not in a position to indicate to which places agencies may move. That is up to the Flynn committee which will make recommendations to the Cabinet sub-committee. I read about some of the cases of agencies and Departments mentioned but these were the Departments which were oversubscribed in the central applications facility. That is one of the criteria Mr. Flynn will use.

Is the Minister of State saying the newspaper report is inaccurate?

I have no idea and will not pre-empt the Flynn committee recommendations. I could extrapolate but I might be as far out as some of the newspaper reports. Mr. Flynn said he needed the staff and the central applications facility will give him that signal. I understand hundreds have signed up since the 7 September deadline and the list will remain open.

Mr. Flynn will examine the question of viability in moving in the first sequence each Department and if it will be able to deliver services efficiently. He will also examine if the Office of Public Works has property solutions for each Department and agency. People have been critical of the amount of work that has gone into the programme. The post hoc negotiations with the Flynn committee, the Department of Finance and every other Department and agency are intense. When Mr. Flynn makes his recommendations and they are accepted by the Government, I expect they will show a good geographical spread. From my extrapolation from the figures in the central applications facility and knowing how far advanced we are on property solutions, I expect this to be the case.

The only town deserving of decentralisation is Longford which has been designated a RAPID programme town. Other towns are more economically buoyant and have a low unemployment rate. The matter must be viewed in an even-handed way. I am not criticising the Minister of State but I would like to see him appointed to the Cabinet sub-committee.

I know that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has visited Longford town where a site has been acquired from the local authority and to where the Prison Service is anxious to move soon. When all the ducks are lined up, it is easy to see something will happen.

I am aware of the problems arising from the job losses in Dairygold in Deputy O'Keeffe's home town, Mitchelstown. The ducks for Bus Éireann are not lined up as clearly as those for the Prison Service. However, it is the intention of the Government, the Flynn committee and the Department of Finance to line them up——

We will take the Prison Service if the Minister of State is offering.

I saw the comments made recently by a Minister on public private partnerships in respect of which there is a timescale. Under the arrangements specified, one needs a substantial scale of expenditure. We will look at each of the projects and their overall cost and the advice received from the Department of Finance and the NDMA consultants on their viability. It may be a variation of the public private partnership model or a design, build and finance arrangement. We will look at value for money for the State in each of the arrangements.

I thank the Minister of State but I am not happy with the overall public private partnership policy.

Sin scéal eile

The Minister of State cited the success of previous office relocation programmes. If they were so successful, why is it that half the number of civil servants applying for places in the current round of office relocations previously decentralised from Dublin? This raises questions about the success of the previous programmes.

The Minister of State gave an ill-defined costing for placement and location. However, no figure was given for ancillary costings such as child care costs as mentioned by Deputy Burton. Neither is there a figure for logistical costs. The heads and secretariats of most Departments and State agencies will still be based in the Dublin area. Obviously, there will be ongoing travel back and forth between Dublin and wherever the new office is located. The figure of €8 million given by the Minister of State must be taken with a grain of salt, given previous costings for measures in respect of abuses in residential institutions, medical cards for the over 70s and the national roads programme. Whenever an estimate is given, it is always an underestimate. The sum of €8 million could be just part of the overall cost of the decentralisation programme.

The constitutency of Cork South Central is the only one outside of Dublin where civil servants are being asked to move out. Will the Minister of State explain the logic of this? Civil servants based in Cork moving to Fermoy and Macroom will still live in Cork, resulting in no economic benefit whatsoever to these two towns.

Almost half the number of civil servants choosing to move again did not choose to move back to Dublin but to a different provincial location. One of the difficulties with previous decentralisation programmes——

Dublin was not on offer.

Dublin was not listed on the form for the central applications facility.

I am answering Deputy Boyle's question. The staff concerned have chosen to move. For those based in Dublin, part of their unhappiness is caused by commuting times. There are also substantial commuting distances in the countryside where people are working in decentralised offices in Limerick, Nenagh, Portlaoise or Mullingar. There is a positive——

No offices have been decentralised to Mullingar.

I meant to say Athlone and Tullamore.

Every other town except Mullingar.

Decentralisation will allow staff to move within their Department to a new decentralised office in their area which may suit them from a commuting viewpoint. They will bring the necessary experience to the churn as Deputy Bruton referred to it.

It defeats the whole purpose of the process which is to get as many civil servants as possible out of Dublin.

In every Department there are substantial waiting lists of staff who want to move. I constantly receive representations from persons who were No. 97 on the list for two years and are now only at No. 95. Not everyone is happy with their place of work in the Civil Service and this provides them with an option to move. The trade unions representing civil servants were insistent that civil servants outside of Dublin city should have the same opportunities for relocation as——

Is the Minister of State suggesting political representations influence whether civil servants can be moved?

Absolutely not but that does not stop people——

Why would people write to the Minister of State?

It does not stop people making representations.

That is part of being a Deputy in a rural constituency. I am sure Deputy Penrose also receives many letters on this subject.

I understood from the Public Appointments Service that it was established rule that such a move would lead to disqualification.

It does not stop people wondering if the system——

The Minister of State has responsibility for the Office of Public Works. I am not happy that he is able to read where staff are on transfer lists.

By way of clarification, this is not for new posts but for transfers to other locations. The CPSU and other public sector unions are heavily involved. No posts are being advertised as these are internal transfers. I do not want anyone to think there is political interference in the appointments process.

If Deputy Burton thinks it is a big secret that staff seek a change within the Civil Service, she should remember there are hundreds on waiting lists in every Department. I am not sure if she is aware of this but I am from people who have been on waiting lists for a long time.

The Minister of State has said he constantly receives letters from people who are on lists——

I said "representations".

——for Civil Service jobs. I suggest to him——

I wish to clarify that it is not a case of seeking jobs; it relates to a transfer list.

The Minister of State has his own agenda.

This is the Technical Group's time slot. We can come back to the Labour Party.

I was answering Deputy Boyle's question when I was interrupted by Deputy Burton. The Civil Service unions insisted that the same opportunities would be available to civil servants outside Dublin city in terms of relocation as otherwise. It is only fair that this should be the case and I would not read anything negative into it. The CAF is still open and staff continue to apply as they see the continued roll-out of the programme. I assume when the Flynn committee makes its report to the Government and the sequencing is announced, we will also see a substantial increase in staff signing up.

We appear to be getting bogged down in the detail. I have grave misgivings about this programme, in part due to the manner in which it was formulated without any great consultation. An effort has been made here today to establish what consultation took place, even within Government, and we have not received answers.

Questions have been asked about the large number of locations involved, the fact that the programme has no logical foundation and that it bears no relationship whatsoever, despite what the Minister of State said, to the national spatial strategy. That is the clearest indication that there is no strategic plan involved in the decentralisation programme. There is no strategic thinking on the part of the Government. There is nothing strategic about the programme. What we have is a political announcement designed to benefit the two parties in government. It is as simple as that because there is no coherent or logical approach to how the country will develop. If we had such an approach or a logical plan, the programme would have been announced to fit in with it, but that is not the case, which is a tragedy because we are waiting long enough for decentralisation.

The Minister of State said the one thing the Government did not do was rush forward with a programme. It did not rush forward. I do not know what the members of the Cabinet were doing because they did not give it any serious consideration while sitting on their bums to try to come up with an announcement. When the national spatial strategy was launched, it was supposed to be the blueprint for future development and while there were misgivings about the programme, it is true to say there was a logic attached to it. There was a planned organised approach which is lacking in the decentralisation programme. If the Government is committed to achieving balanced regional development, it should have shown that was the case in this programme. We are going nowhere with programmes like this if there is no linkage, coherence or connection. It is totally unfair.

I am not sure if the Minister of State is aware of a recent INTO survey which indicates that parents in eastern counties have to enrol children in national schools even before they are born. Let us contrast this with what is happening in the west where national schools have to close because of a lack of population. What will the decentralisation programme do about this? In one case it is transferring jobs from the over-populated eastern county of Dublin to the over-populated eastern county of Kildare. The jobs of some currently living and working in Dublin will be decentralised to Kildare but the people concerned will probably remain living in Dublin and commute to Kildare. That is absolute and total madness.

Deputy Finneran has stated the decentralisation programme has been welcomed in east Galway. That is not true. It cannot be welcomed for two reasons. Tuam is the only town in County Galway that has been designated as a hub town under the national spatial strategy. However — although it should be — it is not even mentioned in the decentralisation programme. The Government should indicate it is willing to support the national spatial strategy at every available opportunity but it did not do so and should stand indicted. It is to blame. As indicated, it is totally lacking in having any kind of regional policy.

The other reason the decentralisation programme has not been welcomed in east Galway is that at the time of the budget 89 National Roads Authority jobs were to be decentralised to Ballinasloe but it now appears only one applicant from the agency has applied to be decentralised. Of the 89 personnel in the National Roads Authority, many are specialist staff, engineers, road designers and so on. As only one member of staff has applied to go to Ballinasloe, does this mean the National Roads Authority will be disbanded, that these specialists will be laid off and that a new recruitment programme will be initiated to find 88 people to replace the 88 staff members who do not wish to relocate? If that is the case, it will break up a successful agency. The whole programme is neither coherent nor well thought out. It is not strategic or good for the country. The Government is not pursuing a programme of balanced regional development.

I totally reject the allegation that there is nothing strategic about the decentralisation programme. The national spatial strategy was certainly taken into account, but not totally. The core business of those Departments to be decentralised was taken into account as was the location of their customer base. To give a few examples, the headquarters of the OPW is being transferred to Trim, County Meath where it already has over 200 staff based. It made eminent good sense that if the OPW was to be moved from Dublin, it should be relocated to somewhere it already had a substantial presence. Likewise with the move of the Department of Agriculture and Food to Portlaoise, there are already several hundred decentralised officials from the Department in the town.

When Mr. Hendrik van der Kamp came before the committee as an expert witness, he spoke at great length and with high praise of the policy to cluster Departments, in particular, the Department of Education and Science, which will be centred on the towns of Athlone, Mullingar and Tullamore. This will give people an opportunity to commute together and also offer greater opportunities for promotion purposes and so on. The same is true of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government which is moving to Wexford where the Department already has a substantial presence in Johnstown Castle with the EPA and other departmental bodies. I can provide a list for the Deputy.

The programme has been well thought out. I sympathise with Deputy McHugh that Tuam did not feature among the 55 locations chosen.

I do not need sympathy. All I need is a bit of proper——

I will not offer my sympathy then. I thought it might be of some solace to him.

What about the situation in Ballinasloe? Will the NRA be disbanded and a new recruitment process initiated?

Does the Deputy suggest we move from some of the other 55 locations; that we pull out of Loughrea, for example, and move to Tuam instead?

The decisions have been made. Even though that is the case, I am still entitled to give my view and be critical, if that is deserved.

Absolutely.

On this occasion, it is. Will the Minister of State address the question of how he will deal with the case of Ballinasloe?

When the Deputy went on at length about his area of east Galway, he failed to refer to Loughrea where 40 staff members are to be relocated.

Why does the Minister of State not answer the question he was asked instead of looking for other figures?

The office in Loughrea has been doubly over-subscribed. The NRA is a State agency which requires personnel with specific expertise. It is carrying out an important duty under the national development plan. I accept there are issues to be addressed. This is typical of some of the agencies being looked at by the Flynn committee. In terms of sequencing, while I do not expect it to be fast-tracked, I do not wish to pre-empt what Mr. Flynn might announce.

I acknowledge what is happening in Loughrea where I understand progress has been made. While this is to be welcomed, it appears from the documentation issued that the situation in Ballinasloe is critical. There is a case to answer in that no attempt was made to include Tuam in the decentralisation programme.

Unfortunately, 130 applications were made to the Minister for Finance from towns seeking to be included in the programme. Unfortunately, as he had 55 locations to choose, a number of towns, including Tuam, were disappointed. While in certain respects it is positive that the Deputy views this as a major loss to the town, I get a different impression from some Opposition Members.

That is an incorrect interpretation of my remarks. If national policies are in place, subsequent programmes and policies should be seen to support them.

I have three questions and hope the Minister of State will attempt to answer them. He stated the decentralisation programme for the Revenue Commissioners was so successful he appointed the former chairman of the Revenue Commissioners to the Flynn committee for doing such a good job. Noting that 50% of those who took up the jobs in the decentralised Revenue office were on promotion and an additional 200 staff had to be recruited at substantial cost to the taxpayer, does the Minister of State consider the project successful?

In terms of the concerns articulated about the ability of Departments to operate efficiently from a decentralised office, the performance of the Revenue Commissioners, particularly in recent years, indicates it has delivered positive results. The representatives of the Revenue Commissioners who appeared before the joint committee stated decentralisation offered positive opportunities in terms of re-engineering — the term they used — its workforce in a new decentralised office. Not all revenue is collected in Dublin.

While I do not know the position in terms of recruitment, I am aware that the Revenue Commissioners have substantially expanded their personnel since decentralisation.

If the Minister of State has read the transcript, as he said he did, he will have noted the Revenue Commissioners statement that 50% of staff were promoted and 200 additional staff were recruited to facilitate decentralisation.

They were recruited on a temporary basis.

That is incorrect; they were recruited on a permanent, full-time basis. I asked the Minister of State the simple question as to whether he considered the project successful, given that it generated substantial additional costs to Revenue. He chose not to answer and waffled.

I would like to answer the question because it depends on how the matter is viewed. My information is that the Revenue Commissioners were significantly expanding their personnel to deal with an extended workload, as is reflected in the revenue they have gathered in recent years. Notwithstanding that the expansion in personnel was coincidental with decentralisation, it was not solely due to it.

I ask the Minister of State to re-read the transcript. My second question relates to last year's Budget Statement. In the small print on the decentralisation announcement the Minister stated no contracts could be entered into in the provincial setting until the corresponding building at central level had been disposed of. The Office of Public Works has entered into a contract in Longford to secure premises for the Prison Service. Has it disposed of the corresponding building in Dublin or made arrangements therefor, in keeping with the Budget Statement of last year?

It would not make sense to dispose of a building which already houses a Department. Would we put staff on the street for a couple of months before relocating them? When I assumed responsibility for the Office of Public Works, I examined the State property portfolio with a view to selling property which was under-utilised by the State. This year we sold the premises of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which became vacant when staff moved out to facilitate a major refit. When decentralisation was announced, we took the opportunity to sell the building and received a good price for it.

The Minister of State has indicated the statement in the budget I cited is irrelevant.

From a practical point of view, the Deputy mentioned the prison service which is——

Is the statement irrelevant?

Please allow the Minister of State to continue.

May I respond to the question? The Prison Service sought planning permission for a headquarters in west Dublin which was subsequently refused. It currently has an opportunity to move to Longford under the decentralisation programme and a site has been acquired. I am not certain of the current position but the service already had plans to relocate its headquarters to a new site in west Dublin. It has enthusiastically embraced the opportunity to move to Longford and transfer its plans to a new site and is proceeding to do so.

The Minister of State has correctly indicated the statement in the budget is irrelevant. Let us takes as an example the headquarters of the Department of Education and Science in Marlborough Street. The Department is supposed to move to Mullingar but cannot dispose of the Marlborough Street site because it includes three listed buildings, a Gaelscoil and other facilities which the Office of Public Works does not own. The statement is, therefore, irrelevant. The Minister of State was about to say as much before suddenly retreating.

I will quote the memorandum precisely:

The overall objective will be to ensure that property being acquired at regional level is matched as closely as possible, both in time and in cost terms, by disposal of property currently held in the Dublin region, whether held on lease or otherwise. The Implementation Committee will oversee the production of a plan by the OPW by March 2004 to give effect to this objective.

Is the Minister of State citing the Budget Statement?

He has the Budget Statement to hand.

The statement I quoted is lifted directly from the Budget Statement.

I will check it in a couple of minutes. According to the Minister of State:

The locations were chosen on the basis of a number of criteria. These included the need to achieve a fit with the national spatial strategy...

Following on from Deputy McHugh's comments, in the light of the effort to achieve a fit with the national spatial strategy, how many of the towns selected for decentralisation were gateway towns and what percentage of the gateway towns do they represent? How many of the towns selected are designated hub towns in the national spatial strategy and what percentage of the hub towns do they represent?

When I stated one of the criteria was to——

Will the Minister of State answer the questions?

I have the information somewhere.

He stated the decentralisation programme was matched to achieve a fit with the national spatial strategy but cannot tell us what it is.

Achieving a fit with the national spatial strategy was one of the criteria.

The bottom line is that the Minister of State is not in touch.

I also mentioned a number of other criteria and the eminent good sense it made to relocate the Office of Public Works to Trim where we already have a base, regardless of the national spatial strategy.

The Minister of State has told us that already.

Does it not make sense to have an education cluster?

Yes, but it does not make sense to produce a national spatial strategy only to ignore it. In some cases the fit, as the Minister of State called it, is 20% or 25%. He introduced the issue by claiming there was a fit with the national spatial strategy. He obviously did not check because in many cases it is low in percentage terms. Why did he state there was a fit?

It was not the only criterion. The fact that the match-up was 25% shows that this criterion was substantially taken on board.

A figure of 75% is substantial.

Deputy McGrath, who is from Westmeath, is aware that there is already a substantial presence of educational facilities in his county and Tullamore, County Offaly. Does it not make eminent sense to locate a substantial new decentralised project in Mullingar, the centre of a cluster, regardless of the national spatial strategy?

That makes sense. In that case, it fits. They were already designated as gateway towns. I do not have a problem with this.

With what place does the Deputy have a problem?

The Minister of State told the committee that he had achieved a fit with the national spatial strategy. However, when one looks at the facts, that is a mis-statement. It does not fit well with the strategy.

I refer the Chairman to Portlaoise which was most disappointed——

It is not included in the national spatial strategy.

——that it was not included in the strategy. However, a new motorway to Portlaoise is due to be opened next Monday. I cannot think of a more important hub for the country. It will host the headquarters of the Department of Agriculture and Food.

On the point raised by Deputy McGrath, 960 of the 10,000 jobs went to gateway centres and 1,245 to hubs, giving a total of 2,205. In other words, 22% went to gateways and hubs. It does not appear that the national spatial strategy, the key tool of regional development, weighed heavily in the Minister of State's agenda. Another statistic which might be of more interest is that 5,500 jobs were located in the 11 counties with Cabinet Ministers. Therefore, a total of 55% went to counties with Cabinet Ministers while only 22% went to locations deemed gateways and hubs under the national spatial strategy. Does this not suggest that there might have been other factors not listed in the Minister of State's opening statement that might have carried weight? I realise that "Parlon country" has a particular attraction and although the Minister of State was not party to this, it was a major consideration in determining the final outcome. Is there not a whiff of political opportunism in the way this was put together and presented, not least by the Minister of State?

My other question refers back to the issue of what will and will not work. The CAF showed that in only 12 of the 77 organisations were more than one fifth of personnel willing to move with their organisation. It also showed that the only areas which were fully subscribed by Dublin based public servants or workers were Drogheda, Kildare, Navan and Trim. They are hardly the centres one would have in mind when considering the development of a regional strategy driven decentralisation programme. Is there not something a little strange about a decentralisation programme in which one is only able to succeed in delivering the objective when it is a reverse commute situation? In none of the other areas has the Minister of State secured anything close to the standard he requires to make this work.

There is another matter which the Minister of State did not clarify. He has wriggled and moved on this. In December 2002 the then Minister for Finance said the Government was removing 5,000 people from the Civil Service. There is now a cap on new recruitment. On the other hand, we are aware that every decentralisation programme was only fulfilled on the basis of new recruitment and promotion. What is the Government's strategy in respect of new recruitment to the public service and new promotion positions?

I said the locations were chosen on the basis of a number of criteria which included the need to achieve a fit with the national spatial strategy and the location of existing decentralised offices. The strategy was a factor but it was not the determining factor when deciding. Deputy Bruton asked which was the biggest attraction, a hub or a Cabinet Minister? I would put my money on the Cabinet Minister any time. I was once obliged to point out to the Deputy and his brother the coincidence of the European headquarters of the veterinary office being located in County Meath. It was not a coincidence but I applaud it. It is a fine place to have it.

The Minister of State is saying, therefore, that the 10,000 job decentralisation programme is about political agendas. It is about the Ministers' political agendas in their constituencies.

The Minister of State just said that.

That is what the Minister of State said.

That is what he managed to convey.

No, I did not say that.

The Minister of State said that if it came to saying whether it would be Cabinet Ministers or a spatial strategy, it would be Cabinet Ministers.

No, I said I would put my money on Cabinet Ministers.

As Deputy Parlon is the responsible Minister of State, I presume his money would go on what will happen or what happened, or is he just out of the loop altogether?

There are 55 locations and 15 Cabinet Ministers. There is a substantial geographical spread, more than anybody would have envisaged. The Deputy is upset and concerned that his town was not included. It was not possible for the Minister for Finance to include every one of the 110 towns. He did not even include the 15 Cabinet Ministers, of whom a substantial number are from Dublin. If decentralisation was based on this factor, it would never have happened in the first place.

How can one decentralise an office to Dublin?

I recall a member of the Opposition — I am not sure if it was the Deputy — making a link with all the Ministers. The only link he could find with Portlaoise as the headquarters for the Department of Agriculture and Food was that the then Minister, Deputy Walsh, travelled through Portlaoise on his way home to Clonakilty. One can devise all types of links that make no sense. The spread of locations was well thought out. It is Government policy and we are about to proceed with implementing it as quickly as possible. We have not received any objections from the towns selected. The only objections are from towns that have not been included.

I asked another two questions. One was about the policy on recruitment and promotion while the other was related to the fact that in only 12 of the 77 organisations were one fifth of the personnel willing to move. We are already one year into the programme.

The numbers policy does not mean that we will not be recruiting and promoting to fill normal course vacancies. I noted when reading the transcripts from the committee that the PSEU had said in July that in the previous year the Civil Service had filled 1,000 clerical officer posts and that 400 had been filled up to July this year.

Mr. Flynn said promotions represented 3%. Natural turnover would be 3%. It would take ten years, therefore, to achieve the figure of 30% that the Minister of State is seeking.

The CAF is not closed. It merely took on board those who wanted priority access on 7 September. I checked with the CAF today and hundreds have signed up since that date. There is a continuing opportunity to sign up with it. If there continues to be a problem, it will be dealt with by the Secretaries General of the Departments or the chief executives of the agencies involved.

Will there be freedom to recruit at the new venue to fill the remaining posts?

All options will be examined. As the Deputy knows, there is new legislation——

It will make a huge difference to the cost. If positions are filled with new recruits, there will still be staff in Dublin. There will be two people in the post, in effect.

Absolutely. That will be taken on board. New legislation was recently passed by the Oireachtas with regard to Civil Service recruitment. It allows greater flexibility, in that recruitment does not have to be undertaken centrally any more but can be undertaken locally.

According to the information we were given, there are 2,345 jobs in public bodies which are to be decentralised and which were part of the CAF offers. The figures show that only 262 have applied from Dublin and another 66 have applied from outside Dublin, making a total of 328 applications for the public bodies concerned. Deputy McHugh asked the Minister of State a precise question about one of these bodies, the National Roads Authority, which is due, according to the Minister of State's list, to move to Ballinasloe with 89 of its staff. However, only three staff from Dublin and three from outside Dublin have indicated an interest. I will repeat my question. In the context of the take-up from public bodies, many of them highly specialised, does the Minister of State propose, as was suggested by Mr. Flynn, that the period over which these bodies will be decentralised will be far longer? Mr. Flynn hinted that in some cases decentralisation would not happen at all.

I did not pick up any hint.

One of the examples he used was the Combat Poverty Agency moving to Monaghan. The take-up from public bodies is abysmal. How can the decentralisation of public bodies occur in the timescale announced in the budget unless it is agreed to replicate these bodies in their new locations at huge public cost, or, alternatively, decide to extend, as suggested by Mr. Flynn, the timescale for their decentralisation?

I was Minister of State at the then Department of Social Welfare when very successful decentralisation to the north-west took place. However, it took place over an extended period of about seven years. It was also quite costly because many of the jobs had to be filled by means of temporary vacancies and on promotion. In view of the very small number of staff of various specialist agencies offering to move from Dublin, specialists will be left in Dublin during decentralisation, obviously at a cost. Has the Minister of State worked out the cost of the doubling up of many agencies, given that practically nobody is offering to move?

The Railway Safety Commission requires eight staff in Ballinasloe but nobody has indicated an interest. Are we acquiring a new building in Ballinasloe for the commission? Will it sit as a white elephant while its staff stay in Dublin? These are legitimate questions to which we are entitled to have answers.

Somebody on the other side of the table referred to nit-picking. There is an element of trying to find the most negative instance. As I stated, the figures for applications by civil servants are much better than for the State agencies.

I asked a question.

If the Deputy gives me half a minute, I will try to answer it.

The Minister of State sent me this report which states 2,345 staff working in State agencies were to decentralise to a variety of locations. Only a grand total of 328 have indicated they are interested. We have provided the Minister of State with two examples regarding Ballinasloe. What does he propose? Will he extend the timeframe or duplicate the services where specialists have indicated they are not interested in moving? What would be the cost of such duplication? These are the questions.

Obviously, the CAF received a much more positive response from the Civil Service because that is the norm. It was accepted from the outset that there were difficulties with the State agencies. Mr. Flynn referred to this and stated there were challenges that must be met. The Department of Finance is making recommendations to him while he is considering solutions and objectives. The issue is being dealt with.

On sequencing, where there is a personnel problem, I do not expect the staff involved to move. However, Mr. Flynn and his committee, together with the Department of Finance, are dealing with all of the issues involved on an ongoing basis. I am confident they will be dealt with.

To consider this on an individual level, a problem arises because staff who joined the Combat Poverty Agency, FÁS or Bord Bia never envisaged they would be working for Bus Éireann or another agency. They joined a single State agency and do not lend themselves as easily to transfer to different locations as civil servants. While this poses a substantial challenge, it is what the Department of Finance and the Flynn committee are addressing. I doubt they will make any recommendations on moving until the issues are resolved.

Is the Minister of State saying the transfer of the agencies will be delayed because of the lack of take-up? That is the logic of his position.

The Deputy can read whatever she likes into it. Mr. Flynn will make his recommendations but I cannot say what they will be. I am not in a position to pre-empt either the number or names of the Departments or agencies. However, the process will be fully subscribed to and there will be an implementation plan that will guarantee that their services will continue to be delivered efficiently. It is these Departments for which the OPW will have a solution. As soon as they are in train, we will begin dealing with other agencies. Whether this will be in phase two, phase three or otherwise, the Government is fully committed to decentralisation being voluntary.

Is the Minister of State now saying there is a phase two or phase three? Will he give us the basis for this? This is a new issue. We did not know there was a phase two or phase three.

The Government is fully committed to the full delivery of the decentralisation plan announced in budget 2003.

The Minister of State has just referred to a phase two, a phase three and a phase four. The committee has not heard about these phases being set out by the Government. Will the Minister of State elaborate on this?

What the committee should have heard is that Mr. Flynn stated there would be no big bang with regard to moving all of the State agencies overnight.

Will the Minister of State elaborate on his comments about a phase two, phase three and phase four?

We can call it what we like but some body must be first. Mr. Flynn is coming forward with a proposal to the Government with regard to sequencing.

Therefore, there will be a phase two, phase three and phase four.

Of course, until the move to every one of the 55 locations is completed.

This phasing is new. Will the Minister of State share with the committee the timescale for each of the phases? Is it one phase every year or every two years? May we have a ballpark figure of what it is likely to be?

This time last year, close to 1 November last, there was no expectation there was going to be a major announcement on decentralisation. Some 11 months down the road a fabulous amount of work has been done in progressing decentralisation. It is an ambitious plan. It will be the biggest movement of State agencies ever envisaged by the State. It is not a Mickey Mouse operation but a substantial one.

Within the coming weeks I expect the Government will announce the first move. It will announce a number of Departments which will move immediately and the locations to which they will move. It will be up to the OPW to complete the property issues, up to each individual Department to get its personnel in order, whether that is in regard to training or otherwise, and up to individuals who choose to move to begin making their arrangements.

I am conscious of the major change involved for individuals and their families, and the possibility of staff in Dublin being without jobs. All of these issues are being dealt with. The Government is absolutely committed to delivering 100% on the decentralisation plan as outlined, whether it takes two, three or four phases. In the next number of weeks we can expect the first sequencing will be announced.

Which staff in Dublin will find themselves without jobs?

Staff whose Departments and headquarters are being moved and who have chosen, for their own reasons, not to relocate.

Speaking in Cabra and at Beggar's Bush the day before the local elections, the Taoiseach specifically said people in Dublin would not lose jobs. The Minister of State is now saying people in Dublin will lose jobs.

The Deputy is nit-picking. I did not say that.

The Minister of State has just spoken about people in Dublin losing their jobs.

Nobody will lose his or her job.

That is what the Minister of State said. Does he want to reverse himself?

I referred to the specific job they were doing. If somebody is working in the Department——

What specific job will they lose?

If somebody is working in the Department of Agriculture and Food in Kildare Street, that Department moves to Portlaoise and he or she chooses not to move, the specific job he or she has been doing in Kildare Street, be it the job of clerical officer, principal officer, assistant principal or whatever, will cease to exist in Kildare Street because the Department will no longer be located there. However, he or she is guaranteed his or her job and every facility will be provided for him or her to transfer to a corresponding job.

That almost 5,000 people have chosen to move out of Dublin clearly means there will be vacancies and opportunities in other Departments within Dublin.

We have concluded our question and answer session. On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their useful contribution to the meeting. We have had a series of meetings on this topic. We will decide at our next meeting whether we should proceed any further this year with the decentralisation debate.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. sine die.

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