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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jan 2005

Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority: Presentation.

We are meeting representatives of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority to discuss two matters, the first of which is the report of the inspector appointed under section 8 of the Companies Act 1990 to investigate the affairs of National Irish Bank Limited and National Irish Bank Financial Services Limited while the second is the IFSRA report on the investigation into the AIB Group on foreign exchange and other charging issues as well as deal allocations and associated issues. The chief executive of IFSRA, Dr. Liam O'Reilly, is joined by Ms Mary O'Dea, the authority's consumer director, Mr. Patrick Neary, prudential director, and Mr. Martin Moloney, head of the legal and financial department. On behalf of the committee, I welcome them to today's meeting. The committee regards as very serious the issues raised in the reports which prompt important questions about the strength and structure of systems for the regulation of banks. Members are especially interested in the issues of fitness and probity. We are also concerned with the protection and promotion of the rights of consumers.

Before the discussion begins, I advise the representatives that while the comments of members of the committee are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not. I remind members that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committee or the Houses. We will commence with a short presentation by IFSRA on the report of the inspectors appointed to investigate the affairs of National Irish Bank and National Irish Bank Financial Services Limited. It will be followed by an open discussion with members after which we will proceed to separate consideration of the other report.

Dr. Liam O’Reilly

I thank the Chairman for giving us the opportunity to address the committee this afternoon. My colleagues and I are happy to discuss with it the recent public reports on NIB and AIB. I note from the invitation to us that it wishes to discuss the two issues separately and has asked me to deliver two brief opening statements. I will, therefore, confine my initial statement to general, relevant issues and matters relating to the NIB High Court inspector's report. Later in the session I will deliver a statement on our own report on AIB.

I will start by briefly updating the committee on recent relevant developments on the role of the financial regulator which have occurred since I last addressed members. The most significant development has been the introduction of new legislation, the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2004 which came into effect on 1 August 2004. The Act provides us with a range of new powers to promote compliance with our regulatory requirements. We can now impose sanctions for the contravention of financial services regulations prescribed under the Act. The new legislation also gives us discretion to require compliance statements.

Under the Act, we have the power to impose sanctions for breaches of regulatory requirements and to publicise the findings and sanctions imposed. These include fines of up to €5 million in the case of a regulated entity and €500,000 in the case of a person. The Act further allows for the disqualification of a person from the management of a financial services firm. There are various other administrative sanctions we can impose, including a caution or reprimand, a direction to refund consumers where appropriate and a direction to pay the costs of investigations. These sanctions have been available since 1 August last year and cannot be applied retrospectively. We could not, therefore, apply the sanctions in the cases under discussion today. The powers are significant and will serve to promote compliance with regulatory requirements, thereby assisting IFSRA to protect consumers of financial services.

To devise and implement a fair and efficient procedure, we have entered into a process of public consultation on administrative sanctions. We actively seek the views of members of the public, representative bodies, industry and the new consumer and industry panels on our approach. The process will help us to facilitate the development of an appropriate sanctions policy. We are also interested in any views members of the committee have on this issue. It is important to stress that we are not deferring the use of the sanctions or powers granted until the consultations are complete. IFSRA reserves the right to use all of our powers to address any contravention committed on or after 1 August 2004.

As part of the ongoing development and implementation or our three year strategy, in November we published an outline of the focus of our work in 2005. The approach we continue to take is principles based. Regulation will be driven less by prescriptive rules and box ticking and more by the promotion of high standards of competence and integrity at the very top of our financial institutions. Our major focus in the coming year will be on the development and implementation of harmonised codes of conduct for various industry sectors. The codes will set out how financial institutions are expected to behave towards consumers. Institutions which breach the codes may be subject to financial penalty under the new powers I have outlined.

Among our values as an organisation are openness, transparency and receptivity to our stakeholders' views. The recent establishment of the consumer and industry consultative panels and the forthcoming appointment of the financial services ombudsman will strengthen and enhance our approach to financial services regulation. In the context of NIB, we are working to ensure consumer rights and entitlements are given a high priority in the systems and processes of all financial services providers. Our future strategic planning will be informed by the outcome on issues arising from the investigations into AIB and NIB.

I will discuss our report on AIB later in the session but first intend to say a few words on the report on the investigations into the affairs of National Irish Bank Limited and National Irish Bank Financial Services Limited by the High Court inspectors. I will refer to issues arising from the investigation relevant to IFSRA and the regulation of financial services.

On 12 July last year the inspectors reported on their investigations, which focused on events in NIB that first came to light in 1998. The inspectors identified two main issues, one concerning the provision of advice on tax evasion, and the other concerning overcharging of customers. These can be broken down as follows. In the case of tax issues, bogus non-resident deposit accounts were opened and maintained by the bank; fictitiously named accounts were opened and maintained in the branches; CMI policies were promoted as a secure investment for funds undisclosed to the Revenue Commissioners; special savings accounts had DIRT deducted at a reduced rate, notwithstanding that the applicable statutory conditions were not observed; and at no time prior to the inspectors' appointment did the bank address the issue of the potential retrospective liability to the Revenue Commissioners for tax arising from the irregularities in the operation of DIRT.

In the case of overcharging, there was improper charging of interest and fees to customers. The report concluded that responsibility for improper practices rested with senior management of the bank during the period covered by the investigations. It also concluded that the internal audit function, the external auditors, audit committee and board of directors were not responsible for improper practices which pertained. However, it is also the inspectors' expressed opinion that both the external auditors and the audit committee were remiss in not requesting that management quantify the potential retrospective liability to the Revenue Commissioners arising from the high level of non-compliance by branch staff with the DIRT statutory requirements reported by the internal audit in December 1994.

On 23 July 2004 Mr. Justice Peter Kelly ordered that copies of the report be provided to several parties, including the financial regulator, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Director of Corporate Enforcement in the Revenue Commissioners and the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is now the responsibility of these parties, including IFSRA, to take any action deemed appropriate in light of the findings of the report.

The financial regulator has welcomed the publication of the report and we are satisfied with the actions taken by NIB to address the issues identified. We will continue to monitor NIB's progress. While I will deal with our approach to the fitness and probity of persons in leading positions in the financial services industry at greater length in my statement regarding AIB, I will say a few words about it at this point. A number of persons, 19 in total, are identified in the NIB report as having been involved in improper practices and certain statements are made about their role in the events investigated.

I emphasise at this point that our approach, as a principles-based regulator, is to assess the fitness and probity of persons who are in key leadership positions and have a general role or responsibility in determining the overall corporate governance strategy of regulated entities. Thus, we focus on persons who are members of the key decision-making bodies within regulated entities, whether the board or executive board. The detail of what constitutes a key leadership position depends on the management structure of a particular regulated entity.

It is perhaps worth noting that the financial regulator in the past has dealt with persons who were not proper by confirming they had resigned, removing them from the industry or denying them entry to the industry in the first place. However, this is not always straightforward. The law rightly protects us all from unwarranted accusations. Further, it protects our right to earn a living. Accordingly, when there is a suspicion, even an apparently well-grounded one, about the probity of an individual, the financial regulator must act within the law. Sometimes there is insufficient evidence to enable us either to remove someone from the financial services industry or to deny the person in question entry.

The law requires us to consider any case in light of the circumstances surrounding the case, including the facts established. Even where facts are established that suggest wrongdoing on the part of an individual, it is necessary to inquire further into the circumstances surrounding the case, with particular regard to issues of proportionality and any mitigating factors.

We have examined the position of each of the persons named in the NIB report. Of the 19 persons identified in the report, all have left NIB and all have left or are in the process of leaving the industry. A small number remain and we are actively involved in assessing their positions. In doing so, we are liaising with the individuals themselves, their employers and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, which is also involved in considering the report.

The joint committee will understand that I cannot go into detail with regard to any individual. However, I can state that the fitness and probity issues arising from the NIB report have been a matter of serious concern for the financial regulator. Our focus is to ensure that the persons in regulated entities with responsibility for compliance culture and corporate governance of the entity are persons of integrity. Where a person has been named in the report and the findings regarding that person raise fitness and probity issues, no such person will be approved in future without a thorough assessment as to his or her competence and integrity to take a position of influence in the industry.

In my opening statement regarding the AIB report, I will speak at greater length about our plans to put in place a comprehensive framework for testing the fitness and probity of directors and managers of financial services firms. At this point, it will be of interest to members to note that we expect to issue a consultation document on this matter towards the end of the month. Any discussion of this issue today will be most welcome as a contribution to developing our views on the matter before the consultation. We will make the consultation paper available to the joint committee when it is ready for members considered views in due course will be welcomed.

As regards tax matters raised in the report, the financial regulator views seriously any financial institution or individual engaged in any type of activity which could facilitate such practice. Under the legislation established for the financial services regulator, we now have a legal avenue to the Revenue Commissioners, which allows us to bring appropriate issues directly to their attention.

In terms of the actions taken, the financial regulator has been in continuous contact with NIB regarding steps being taken to rectify the issues identified by the report. Among the steps taken are the following: the financial advice and services division responsible for selling CMI products has been closed; all branch and business centre procedures manuals have been reviewed, rewritten and reissued to ensure there is complete clarity that the behaviours identified on charging and tax matters are not tolerated; and additional resources have been allocated to training; and NIB has settled all liabilities arising from the DIRT investigations.

A programme is also in place to refund all customers who were overcharged as a result of the interest and fees overcharging and those who were affected by the misselling of offshore products. We are monitoring this fee and interest reimbursement programme and I can now update the joint committee on how it is progressing. I have also attached a table to copies of this statement for members' information.

The total estimated amount to be paid out is €12.5 million, of which €5.3 million has already been paid. This includes €1.9 million paid out in 1998 and 1999. There are three broad categories within the reimbursement programme. The first covers low value payments of less than €13. To date, 43,000 customers in this category have been reimbursed, with work continuing to identify a further 9,000 former customers affected. A total of €4.5 million was set aside for this low value category, of which €3.4 million has been paid, including payment of €1 million to NIB's nominated charity. This charity payment relates to amounts that cannot be reimbursed as it is not possible to identify the customers involved. Payments in this category are due to be completed by the end of July.

A second category covering higher value payments of more than €13 involves more detailed work and about 8,000 accounts. The total amount involved in this category is estimated at €4.9 million. Payments to customers under this category will commence in April, with completion due during the final quarter of this year. A final category involves interest amendments, with final amounts payable expected to be in the region of €1.2 million. These reimbursements are due to be completed by the end of this month.

To date, NIB has made considerable efforts to deal with these matters since they emerged. After some initial reluctance, which was referred to in the High Court inspectors' report, it is clear that the bank is now working very hard to put matters right, both in terms of how it deals with its customers and how it manages to run its business. We have been working with NIB in ensuring that all these matters are put right and we will continue to do so. The improper charging of interest and fees to customers is of great concern. This is in relation to both their impact on consumers and to the matter in which the High Court inspector's report detailed how the charges were imposed.

Finally, it is important to note that on 14 December 2004, National Australia Bank announced it had reached agreement to sell National Irish Bank and Northern Bank toDanske Bank Group. The transaction is conditional on certain regulatory approvals, including that of the financial regulator in Ireland. Danske is the largest bank in Denmark and the second largest financial services enterprise in Scandinavia.

The type of activity described in the High Court inspector's report is utterly unacceptable. As a regulator with a strong consumer mandate we are absolutely determined to ensure there is no place for this type of activity, or the activity that took place in AIB, in the financial services industry of today. We are strongly of the view that in considering how to deal with the regulatory issues, financial institutions must consider factors outside their specific legal and regulatory obligations. In particular, financial institutions should seriously consider their responsibility to maintain the trust and confidence of their customers. It is clear from the cases we are talking about today that institutions that put short-term profit ahead of the interests of consumers and their customers will suffer financially and reputationally.

Deputy Bruton

I suppose with any misdemeanour two things are crucial; one is the chance of being caught and the second is the consequences if one is caught. Looking at this saga one is left with the impression that the consequences of getting caught are not very high. Essentially, the individuals involved have been let go and the bank has mended its ways and is moving on. According to the report, the only penalties I can see which have been imposed are payment for the cost of the investigation and the payment of any tax that was due, which is not exactly penal. They are very minimal penalties if they can even be called such.

The Tánaiste referred the interim report to the DPP seven years ago in June 1998. Presumably that was because she believed action needed to taken on some important issues. I may be wrong but it appears seven years on that no case of any sort has been initiated against anyone. The bank has clearly been found to have been aiding and abetting tax evasion. Is there no offence sufficiently robust for action to be taken on that? The financial regulator ought to be able to inform us if there is a lacuna in the law that allows financial institutions to aid and abet tax evasion without their being open to prosecution.

In regard to the disqualification procedure, I accept that one has to be careful and that due process should apply but reading the report it appears that no process will be initiated. It appears that the regulator would only consider blocking re-entry to the industry in cases where the individuals concerned have not moved out of the industry. Perhaps I am misreading it but there does not appear to be an IFSRA initiative to disqualify anyone. The impression I got from what Dr. O'Reilly said is that if they re-enter the industry the regulator would be disposed to block it. This does not give the impression of regulation that is seriously prosecuting a misdemeanour in any of these areas. I accept that prior to August 2004 the regulator did not have the sanction to impose a €5 million penalty but it had the option to withdraw licences and other obligations that were within the regulatory armoury. Were any of those sanctions considered following the extremely alarming findings outlined in the report?

Parent company responsibility is also an issue as the company is now being sold. Is there a residual responsibility on the company for wrongdoing in the event of a resale, as is the case here? The deal is now awaiting final approval. If the DPP, the corporate enforcer or the financial regulator catches up and decides they will prosecute, whom do they prosecute? What arrangements are made for the transfer of responsibility in regard to these misdemeanours?

I accept the regulator is moving down the route of principle-based regulation but surely the quid pro quo is that if one is caught the consequences are extremely high. How realistic is an approach of that nature in the context of a penalty of €5 million, which is probably less than one day’s profit for some of the companies being regulated? Would institutions be in any way intimidated by a penalty of €5 million?

Clearly the internal report and the audit were found to be grossly remiss, as Dr. O'Reilly said, in not asking questions that ought to have been asked. New compliance requirements are being imposed and presumably companies are much more alert. Does IFSRA now receive all these internal audit documents as a matter of routine, as is allowed under legislation? Is there a danger that IFSRA may again be catching up breathless and late when some new misdemeanour occurs in a financial institution? The crucial issue is whether this can happen again and if the regulator is arming itself with both the internal expertise and the procedures so that it can hope to twig misdemeanours and have penalties sufficiently strong that act as a real disincentive.

Dr. O’Reilly

Deputy Bruton asked about penalties and what penalties could be imposed. As he is aware, under the new legislation we have the power to impose penalties. The wider issue of jailing people was raised in a sub-question. A High Court inspector's report lists the various misdemeanours and as a regulator we are involved in this matter, as is the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. As Deputy Bruton can imagine, a large element of the investigation relates to tax matters so the Revenue Commissioners are also involved. Making an assessment of culpability in these cases is long and protracted. It is certainly not a matter for us alone but one for both the Revenue Commissioners and the Director of Corporate Enforcement. We are ensuring as a priority that where wrongdoing is proven, these people no longer work in the industry. That should be our priority. It would be wrong to say that we forget about it after that and do not need to take action in regard to residual issues. We liaise with the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

Deputy Bruton

We know some of the individuals involved in evasion paid six or seven times their liability because of all the penalties and other clauses but it does appear here that individuals and a company that was systematically advising people to evade tax are not paying anything. They are not paying one or seven times the liability — they are paying nothing.

Is it Dr. O'Reilly's view that the company should be liable for those charges that have been passed on to those individuals who have had to pay such factors of the money they invested on the advice of the bank? Should the bank be responsible for the full charges rather than it all falling on individuals who took its advice?

Dr. O’Reilly

I will answer the first part of the question. We certainly cannot determine guilt in this circumstance which concerns tax evasion. That is a matter for other parties who are expert in the law in this area and can provide proof. We have no powers to require that tax liabilities be paid by another individual. This is also a matter for the Revenue Commissioners. As regulator, we want to ensure that where it is proven people have engaged in inappropriate behaviour, they will no longer be part of the financial services industry. That is my mandate. We never want to see them in the industry again if it is proven they have acted inappropriately. From that point of view, we believe we have done our job. That is why the new legislation requires that we liaise closely with the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Revenue Commissioners to ensure all appropriate information is provided for the authority.

Deputy Bruton

IFSRA's predecessors in the Central Bank comprised the licensing authority. IFSRA is still part of the family. Did the nuclear option of withdrawing a licence or some measure short of this ever come up for consideration?

Dr. O’Reilly

Of course, it did. It was one of the issues we considered very carefully. Not only did we consider it very carefully but we also obtained the views of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. The issue also arose in the High Court case in which Mr. Justice Kelly was asked the same question. However, our firm conclusion was that the nuclear option would have been more harmful to customers in terms of getting their money back where they were overcharged and would have put in danger the position and deposits of other depositors within the institution. We did not believe it would be in the best interests of consumers to exercise that option.

Deputy Bruton

Would Dr. O'Reilly like to comment on the transfer of responsibility to future owners?

Dr. O’Reilly

I have a couple of other questions which I will try to deal with in order. We have a process which we are pursuing regarding any individuals who remain in the industry inappropriately. There is a small number in this category. As I stated, we are liaising with the Director of Corporate Enforcement in this regard. We are also trying to firm up the process to ensure the expectations of individuals are clear. Over the next few weeks we will be consulting the industry and this committee in an effort to determine the criteria under which people may remain in the financial services industry. I have dealt with the withdrawing of a licence.

On the parent company issue, we have to follow the recommendations of the High Court inspectors' report. It was clear that the report was not allocating any responsibility to the board of the institution. From this perspective, it would be difficult to see how one would be able to apply responsibility to the parent company if the board was not found responsible. The Dáil decided on the adequacy of the €5 million penalty. The reputational damage and costs of undertaking an investigation and paying back the institution's customers, including interest, are significant in their own right. What the institution should eventually be fined is ultimately a matter for the Dáil.

Deputy Bruton

The audit committee was found to have been remiss.

Dr. O’Reilly

On audit reports, as a principles based regulator, we are very much interested in compliance and audit reports that eventually appear with the audit committee. We have found — it is certainly a learning point for both us and the institutions — that where there were audit reports, there were two problems generally. The first was that the recognition of a problem and investigation was not clear. Certainly, the bias towards risks other than customer and operational risks was such that there was a certain blind spot regarding interest in consumer matters. However, we also found that when there were audit reports, they did not necessarily find their way to the audit committee. There seemed to be a general problem associated with the upward reporting of issues and problems within both bodies. There are common issues and forms of behaviour that need to be changed.

I understand NIB has now been sold to its new owners at a profit of approximately €1 billion to the original bank. Does Dr. O'Reilly disagree with this ballpark figure? If it is correct, it seems the costs of penalties accruing to NIB amount to a total of not more than €15 million.

Dr. O’Reilly

The figure is €12.5 million.

Yes. That is a very small percentage of the profit. The sum of €1 million paid to the nominated charity as a result of the institution's not being able to find certain account holders amounts to 1% of the profit. The original board, shareholders and holding company have got away with it because all they had to do was refund money to the people from whom they had taken it improperly and probably illegally in the first instance.

Contrast this with the position of individual customers of the bank who were approached by one of the 19 people selling an offshore investment product. The salespersons called to their farms or businesses and stated they had a product that would ensure confidentiality from the taxman in the Isle of Man. The individuals were persuaded or jumped at the opportunity to hide earnings from the taxman. Under Irish law, the Revenue Commissioners are correctly holding these individuals to account, irrespective of whether they jumped at the opportunity or succumbed to the persuasion of one of the 19 salespersons involved. I have spoken to some individuals who stated they were sold the product against their better judgment. The Revenue Commissioners are taking more than a pound of flesh from them. The penalty rates are very high. I do not believe any member of this committee disagree with this. However, there is no proportionate response affecting the bank which established the product. There were 19 individuals involved but the board of the bank seems to have been given a get-out-of-jail card and is not held responsible. The individuals who invested in the products have been held responsible, rightly so.

In the interests of ensuring public confidence in the overall integrity of the banking system, why should the board of the bank not be made to share the pain considering that it has now received over €1 billion in profit from the deal resulting in the sale of the bank? I agree that those who took responsibility within the bank subsequent to these discoveries have made attempts to find the people whose money was taken by the bank and to change the framework within it but at the end of the day those in charge at the bank seem to have got away scot-free. If the people who invested in the scheme are now paying the penalty, I fail to see why the board of the bank should not be held responsibile to some extent, punished and made to pay for what has happened commensurate with what the investors have been made to pay. Dr. O'Reilly states there are mechanisms now in place to approach the Revenue Commissioners on these issues. I ask him to outline these mechanisms and whether the Revenue Commissioners will approach the corporate entity of the bank seeking similiar penalties to what they have sought from individual investors.

Implicit in the statement that of the 19 individuals identified in the report, the vast majority have left, or are in the process of leaving the industry, is that some of them remain. I would like to know the positions they hold and what action, if any, IFSRA will take.

On fitness and probity issues, the report states that when a firm proposes to appoint a person to such a position, it is obliged to demonstrate to the financial regulator that the person concerned is competent to carry out the duties of the post. Does this imply that some of the identified individuals who have left may be in counterpart areas of financial services and may be allowed back in at some time in the future? I would like to know the timescale for the references to the fitness and probity of directors and managers of financial services. Will Dr. O'Reilly expand on the legal avenue open to the Revenue Commissioners which allows IFSRA to bring matters to their attention?

On the issue of Allied Irish Banks——

We wish to deal only with NIB as AIB is the subject of a separate statement. We are conducting our business in two halves.

I have specific queries on AIB.

NIB has got away with paying buttons, yet a profit of €1 billion has been made on the sale of the bank. Where is the proportionality?

Dr. O’Reilly

I do not think the Deputy will be over the moon when she hears that while the repayments were €12.5 million, the total amount in costs to the institutions is €64 million. IFSRA has to deal with facts. The facts were examined very closely for six or seven years by High Court inspectors and it was they who made the judgment as to who was responsible. They identified the 19 people responsible. IFSRA then examined the case to see what could and should be done. Our major concern is to ensure we deal with the financial services industry. The Director of Corporate Enforcement is looking at the issue more widely, in terms of the fitness of a person to be a director of a firm. My memory is that the Revenue Commissioners also received a copy of this report and will examine it.

The major offence is collusion in providing tax evasion advice. It is then a question of who should pursue the case. We do not believe this is a job for the financial regulator but a matter for the Revenue Commissioners. The mechanisms for pursuing it with the Revenue Commissioners are covered under the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2003, of which sections 33A to 33K allow us to talk to anybody if we have suspicions of criminal actions having taken place. That is a new avenue of approach which we have found very useful, both in this case and also in the case of the AIB inquiry where we were able to talk to the Revenue Commissioners at a very early stage in the investigations.

Under the powers of sections 33A to 33K, does IFSRA simply report the matter to the Revenue Commissioners which then deals with it or is there ongoing dialogue between IFSRA and the Revenue Commissioners?

Dr. O’Reilly

We have talked to the Revenue Commissioners and worked out mechanisms whereby we provide them with the information. If there is proven criminal activity, the Revenue Commissioners report back to us on those issues. The precise manner in which we do this has yet to be tested in cases to see how exactly this two way communication takes place.

It was stated the takeover of NIB by Danske Bank Group was subject to regulatory agreements, including regulatory agreement by IFSRA. Does this mean the takeover is conditional on NIB meeting its contingent liability provisions when the case is pursued by the Revenue Commissioners? Will IFSRA take an active interest in this issue?

Dr. O’Reilly

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Patrick Neary, to answer that question.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Dankse Bank Group addressed this point on 14 December 2004 when it stated on its website that the seller had agreed to indemnify Dankse Bank fully for any future claims or issues arising. Of course, we will continue to follow this up with the Revenue Commissioners.

Has IFSRA calculated a figure for the indemnity in order that members may get some idea of the figure involved?

Mr. Neary

I do not have that information.

Why does IFSRA, as regulator, not have that figure?

Mr. Neary

The authority has yet to make an adjudication on the proposed acquisition in which this matter will be taken into account. The indemnity will be filled by National Australia Bank.

I wish to follow up on two specific points raised by Deputy Burton. The Irish Financial Service Regulatory Authority now has a legal avenue to the Revenue Commissioners which allows it to bring appropriate issues to them. However, if the Revenue Commissioners come across issues of concern in financial services companies, are they obliged to inform IFSRA?

Dr. O’Reilly

I call on my colleague, Mr. Martin Moloney, to respond.

There is a separate, though not identical, provision in regard to the Revenue Commissioners providing IFSRA with information on breaches by a regulated entity of any of our rules or regulations.

Does it include breaches of Revenue's rules?

To tease out the point further, if the Revenue Commissioners in the course of their inquiries come across breaches of IFSRA's regulations, they will inform IFSRA but there is no obligation on the Revenue Commissioners to inform IFSRA of any tax issues in regard to the financial institution.

We are talking to the Revenue Commissioners to see if the legislation will provide an appropriate framework for us to exchange information on all matters of concern to us, including fitness and probity. Those discussions have not yet reached a conclusion, but we are quite optimistic that we will be able to get an effective exchange of information about matters that are relevant for fitness and probity purposes. That would include people's tax compliance.

Does Mr. Moloney expect it will require a change in legislation by the Oireachtas?

If it did require a change we would advise the Minister of that.

I am sure taxation affairs are confidential now.

Compliance with taxation involves compliance with the law. In any fitness and probity regulation, compliance with the law is fundamental.

We do not anticipate having a difficulty in this area.

My understanding is that three recent pieces of legislation broke down those paper Chinese walls between the institutions. They include two of the companies Bills and the IASA Bill. Dr. O'Reilly explained one of these Bills in his last visit here. We were led to believe that these Bills would lead to a free flow of information between the various groups such as the Central Bank. These groups were previously constricted in what they could bring to our attention.

Dr. O’Reilly

That is our expectation as well. In working out the detail, we want to make sure that is the case. In making agreements with the Revenue Commissioners, we are interested in whether it is currently involved in a case about proven tax evasion or proven tax advice on evasion. If someone is being convicted by the Revenue Commissioners on these issues, then we want to know about it. We especially want to know if such persons are directors or chief executives and so on. It is not an absolute mirror requirement, yet we want enough powers within the present legislation to get the information.

Dr. O'Reilly used the word "proven". By that does he mean proven in a court of law?

Dr. O’Reilly

No. I mean it in the sense where the Revenue Commissioners have come to an assessment where a serious issue will not end in a settlement.

Has anyone within the banking structures objected to IFSRA obtaining such information from Revenue? There is no legal case.

I ask that when such an agreement is reached, the committee be notified. With regard to the takeover by Danske Bank, will the Irish subsidiary of the bank be registered under the jurisdiction of IFSRA? It could be possible for the National Irish Bank network to operate directly as a branch of Danske Bank, which might not be registered here.

Dr. O’Reilly

At present the deal is not concluded. Therefore, we do not know what will be the precise organisational structure. We envisage that it would be a subsidiary and that it would be fully regulated by the financial regulator from a safety and soundness point of view and from a consumer point of view. If Danske Bank branched in here and decided not to have a subsidiary, we would still be responsible from a consumer point of view. It would be registered here.

What about a regulatory aspect?

Dr. O’Reilly

I am sorry, it would not be a regulated from a safety and soundness point of view, but from a regulatory consumer of view.

There are a number of issues to be raised. However well the witnesses feel they are doing the job, this committee feels that they are still not putting the boot in hard enough. We feel that it is our role to give strength to what IFSRA is doing.

Dr. O'Reilly said that he did not think it his responsibility to pursue these people beyond the areas in the presentation and that is the job of the DPP or the Revenue Commissioners. Why did he come to that conclusion? Does he have the powers to take it further? We want to see that happening. There is also an issue of credibility in the eyes of the public. The report clearly states that the board of directors is not responsible. It then states that the audit committee was remiss. I thought that the audit committee has to report directly to the board of directors and that the board has to accept, acknowledge, approve and endorse the audit committee report. Where does that link come from? In the more recent legislation, there are very important issues here. It brings us back to the importance of having legislation where directors sign off on the probity and the compliance of their company.

Those of us in politics get letters from people in corner shops who are a week late with their tax returns and where the Revenue Commissioners have come down like a ton of bricks on them. They are individually found to be in difficulty. A housewife has been put in jail for not being able to repay on a fridge and pubs lose their licence for selling to people who are aged under 18. These are far lesser breaches of the law than what we are dealing with here. We feel that this has not been reflected in the report. No one will disagree with the points in the report, but it is about what is not in the report. Words are used like "bogus non-resident account", "fictitious named account" and "undisclosed". This is serious language and it would imply a need for serious action. It seems that there is a great problem of credibility and we depend on IFSRA to reflect our needs, our views and our worries on behalf of the taxpayer and on behalf of the consumer.

Who paid for all of this? The shareholders of the bank paid, yet they have done nothing wrong. It has not cost the perpetrators a penny. This is the third time this has happened, where the shareholders of the company are the people who carry the can. Not one of the 19 officers named as responsible has had to pay an extra shilling nor has been threatened with the inside of a court. This has happened in a week where a woman went down a back street and sold her body to a banker. She went to jail and the banker walked free. There is something completely wrong with all of that and it is frustrating that we are trying to explain it to ordinary consumers and taxpayers. If IFSRA does not have the authority to do that, then we should be told what changes need to be made. What can we do to give more authority and power to IFSRA, so that it can obtain the credibility to show the public what is going on?

Dr. O’Reilly

I appreciate the backing because we need it from the Oireachtas to act firmly. Powers now exist which did not exist then. It is about powers that can be applied to offences that occurred after 1 August 2004. If we are to use our forces efficiently and effectively, it is important the right bodies pursue such offences. A tax offence or company law offence, for example, should be pursued by the relevant authorities. Offences against regulations imposed by IFSRA should be pursued by us. No matter what happens, we must work together to ensure an eye is kept on the ball and that individuals who are found guilty are adequately dealt with within the system. I could not agree more that this should be the objective of everybody here.

I understand there is nobody around who was on the audit committee. I can verify this for the committee.

The board accepted the report of the audit committee. There is a link there which has not been travelled.

Dr. O’Reilly

There is a question as to what we follow. Much effort went into the production of a report in which 19 people were named. We should concentrate on the ball in this regard.

Dr. O'Reilly suggested that the audit committee did not even receive some part of the audit report. The fundamental aspect of an audit committee is that it should be a quasi-independent group to which auditors can present. The traditional structure is that of a powerful chief executive by whom even the auditors are intimidated. That the audit report did not even get to the audit committee indicates a significant level of breakdown in the reporting structure and the lack of a quasi-independent space within the bank where practices that were wrong or inappropriate could be addressed. The members of the audit committee are paid to address such issues.

Dr. O’Reilly

Regarding decisions as to which issues are brought to the audit committee, there has been in the past a certain lack of consciousness among the internal auditors, executives and others as to the importance of such issues.

If the information was not presented to the audit committee, this implies in turn that it did not go to the Central Bank, which was the ultimate regulatory body at the time. This means there was a significant gap in the information available to the Central Bank, which is entitled in its role as a licensing and issuing body to every audit report. To perform its function of prudential supervision, it is critical that the Central Bank is aware of information such as that contained in the audit reports and the reports from the audit committee. Has anyone sought to discover why the reports were not received by the audit committee and, in turn, by the Central Bank? Were there lacunae in the area of supervision about which the audit committee was unhappy?

Dr. O’Reilly

This is a weakness we have found generally in the system and is something that must be corrected. It relates to a consciousness of what is or is not important. We are talking about a financial services industry dealing with billions of transactions and employing some 56,000. Much activity is taking place within those institutions. As a principles-based regulator, we must have systems of control, in the same manner as management within an institution. Priorities must be set. Operational and reputational risk are issues that were not very high on the radar until recently.

Dr. O'Reilly has explained this to the committee on a previous occasion and it is a point we understand. Members have previously questioned the actions of the Central Bank at the time, which saw its prudential role as more important than an examination of these issues. However, given the time shift to where we are today, I cannot understand why NIB's licence to function as a bank was not threatened. It seems that everybody's accounts could have been shifted, as we have discussed. I would like to know the thinking behind IFSRA's conclusion that the bank should be allowed to continue regardless. Unlike the local pub, it was not closed down for a day or week, for example, and its licence was not withdrawn. That would certainly shift much of the €1 billion with which it walked out the door.

Dr. O’Reilly

We should clarify to whom we are referring when we speak of the "bank". What is the bank but the individuals making up its management?

If that were the case there would be no difficulty but we do not believe it to be so. The bank constitutes the 19 people who ran it as they saw fit.

Dr. O’Reilly

I apologise for any misunderstanding. We should concentrate on those 19 people.

Perhaps now we should move onto the AIB report as we have spent an hour on this topic. I invite Dr. O'Reilly to make his opening statement on the IFSRA Report on Investigations in the AIB Group on Foreign Exchange and Other Charging Issues and Deal Allocations and Associated Issues.

Dr. O’Reilly

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee on this matter. While my statement in this part of the session is focused on our investigations and report into AIB, it is important to note that much of my earlier statement on NIB and on the relevant regulatory developments that are taking place, particularly relating to fitness and probity matters, equally applies to the matters we are now about to discuss.

The committee is aware that we published an interim report in July last year and a final report on 7 December following our investigations into AIB on two issues, foreign exchange and other charging issues, and deal allocation and associated issues. The report outlined the background to these issues and detailed the actions we are taking, on foot of our investigations, to ensure AIB fully rectifies the situation in regard to its customers, those responsible for these activities, and its own internal practices, systems and controls. The committee will understand that I cannot go into detail with regard to any individual. The report also set out clear lessons for the financial services industry as a whole.

I wish to summarise the findings of our investigations, beginning with those into the foreign exchange and other charging issues. This part of our report dealt with the period from 1996, following the commencement of the Consumer Credit Act 1995. It showed that AIB failed in its regulatory obligations to comply with the law for a period of almost eight years. Certain members of staff and management within certain areas of AIB appear to have been aware, over different periods of time, that AIB was charging over the amount notified to the regulator for some foreign exchange transactions.

The report confirmed that the total amount of excess charges by AIB to be refunded to customers is €34.2 million, including interest. This amount can be divided into three categories. Some €25.6 million relates to the foreign exchange charges subject to statutory notification under section 149 of the Consumer Credit Act, €500,000 refers to non-foreign exchange charges also subject to the statutory notification and €8.1 million applies to other charges not requiring notification under section 149. To date, €14.55 million of the €25.6 million foreign exchange refund has been repaid to customers. Of the remaining refunds for other charges, totalling €8.6 million, €2.2 million has been repaid to customers. In addition, repayments totalling €645,000 to closed accounts have been identified and AIB is endeavouring to make contact with these customers.

As stated in our report, it appears that at least seven opportunities arose between 1998 and 2003 for certain staff and management within certain areas of AIB to identify and-or disclose the discrepancies to the relevant regulator. This was not done. These opportunities ranged from requests from the regulators to confirm that notified charges were correctly applied, to a situation where an internal document in 2002 analysed the issue and drew attention to the need to inform the regulator.

Our investigations also showed that between January and April of last year, AIB took a number of deliberate measures to reduce the foreign exchange charge being applied. The charge was reduced in April 2004 to the level that had originally been notified in 1996. This was done without informing the regulator. These matters are open to the interpretation that AIB intended to notify the regulator subsequently of a proposed increase and to do so without ever drawing attention to the previous breach, which had persisted for almost eight years.

There was inadequate documentary evidence of decisions made in regard to changes in charges, including the original notification. The procedures to raise matters up the line in AIB were inadequate and contributed to this matter persisting for so long. Controls within AIB were also weak in terms of monitoring customer charges.

AIB has a group internal audit function which reports directly to the audit committee of the bank. There is no evidence to suggest that group internal audit was aware of the issues with regard to foreign exchange overcharging prior to May 2004, or that these were brought to its attention. The financial regulator has been satisfied with the co-operation it received from group internal audit during its investigation of the issue. AIB is now strengthening, developing and refining its internal audit function as part of a review of the role of, and resources available to, group internal audit.

AlB has confirmed all customers will be able to obtain repayments due indefinitely. In addition, AIB will not benefit financially in any way from any amount not repaid to customers who cannot be identified.

With regard to deal allocation and associated issues, the investigation found that between 1989 and 1996, funds of certain senior executives of AIB at the time, and-or related parties, were managed by Allied Irish Investment Managers Limited, now AIBIM, through a British Virgin Islands investment company, Faldor Limited. Certain taxation issues arose and these are being dealt with by the Revenue Commissioners.

Faldor benefited from inappropriate favourable deal allocations, by way of artificial deals, amounting to approximately £48,000 out of AIBIM's own funds. We have no evidence to indicate the beneficiaries of Faldor influenced or were aware of these allocations. AIBIM's own trading funds were also used to boost, through the unacceptable practice of artificial deals, the performance of certain clients' portfolios, other than those of Faldor.

Further inappropriate deal allocation practices relating to eight transactions in the period 1991 to 1993 were identified which adversely affected the performance of two specialist unit trusts, amounting to a total of £174,000, to the advantage of other clients. These were unrelated to Faldor. While the internal audit function of AIB did identify some inappropriate dealing practices in 1991 and 1993, there is no evidence that the Faldor account was identified in these audits.

No disciplinary action was taken against individuals involved in these practices at the time and compensation was not paid to the unit trusts affected. A disciplinary process is now underway within AIB and compensation has been paid to those who were disadvantaged.

There has been a fundamental change in the way client relationships are managed by investment firms, such as AIBIM, following the enactment of the Investment Intermediaries Act 1995. Since that time, codes of conduct and client money rules, which require deals to be allocated immediately to the specific client, have been issued and investment managers have been required to invest substantially in compliance functions. Breaches of these, should they occur today, could be subject to sanctions under the new legislation.

AIB is undertaking a number of required actions. These include making all efforts to refund the full amounts identified in the charges issues investigation, totalling €34.2 million, including interest, to affected customers; undertaking a fundamental review of product pricing policy and systems; and introducing a centralised register of all charges levied on products. In addition, AIB will ensure full compliance with an effective policy of escalating matters "up the line" to include an ongoing training programme for management and staff. It will also accelerate and complete a programme of strengthening its compliance function and further developing its internal audit and operational risk management functions. AIB will consider and apply appropriate disciplinary actions against individuals found responsible and will report the outcome to the financial regulator. AIB will undertake an action programme to enhance regular reviews of risk management, controls and governance and to submit those results to the financial regulator. We will continue to monitor the implementation of all required actions.

In response to your request, I will say a few words about the issue of fitness and probity. In a principles-based supervision system heavy reliance is placed on persons in key leadership positions of financial services firms to act in compliance with applicable legislation and in the best interest of customers. For that reason, when a firm proposes to appoint a person to such a position it is obliged to demonstrate to the financial regulator that the person is competent to carry out the duties of the post and is of good character.

We will shortly publish a consultation paper setting out proposals for a comprehensive framework of standards for testing the probity and competence of directors and managers of financial services firms. The framework covers the standards to be observed and the means by which proposed directors and managers are to be tested. It also raises issues about scope, frequency and treatment of old offences.

In principle the standards of competence and probity do not change. However, in the context of the review, we have been considering how they might be elaborated to leave no doubt as to the comprehensive nature of the standards and to ensure there is complete clarity as to what is expected. Rather than describing the standards in terms of definitions or lists of qualities, which risks a suggestion that issues not explicitly mentioned are therefore not relevant, a description in terms of principles is more inclusive. With regard to probity and trustworthiness, for example, the principle would be that a proper person is one who would always act in a manner that is in the interest of the customers of the firm and which complies with all legislative and regulatory obligations of the firm.

In judging whether people are likely to meet, or are continuing to meet, our standards of probity, we suggest that in addition to looking at the individual's personal record, we also look at whether they are clearly committed to a compliant culture in their firm. This would include playing a part in supporting and rewarding staff within a firm for taking an ethical approach to their work.

As part of encouraging a compliant ethos in firms, we see merit in the firm that proposes a person as a director or manager taking the initial responsibility for checking the fitness and probity of that person before submitting their name to the financial regulator. In addition, there is merit in the firm itself applying a fit and proper test to employees below the level subject to scrutiny by the financial services regulator. These are issues on which we are seeking views from the industry, consumers, the general public and this committee for the purposes of the consultation paper.

Requirements of fair procedure also mean that we are required to apply high standards of proof in exercising these powers, since exercising those powers may involve taking away or significantly impairing someone's livelihood. In practice that means we would seek to rely on proven misdeeds in drawing the conclusion that someone falls short of the required standards of probity.

Other agencies, such as the Companies Registration Office or the Director of Corporate Enforcement, may be of assistance to us in establishing the facts of a case. Tax compliance is an issue where we need to consult with the Revenue Commissioners to help us to form a judgment about whether persons or institutions are tax compliant or have aided tax evasion. We are, as part of our consultation regarding fitness and probity, discussing the matter with the Revenue Commissioners.

Lessons arise, from both the NIB and AIB affairs, which relate to the financial services industry and its regulation. Staff members of financial institutions should not feel that they have to go to outside agencies in order to raise issues of importance to that institution. They should feel comfortable raising issues up the line. Those who wish to raise such issues should not be held responsible for the issue simply because they have raised the matter. The financial regulator would expect these issues, where relevant, to be brought to it through the normal compliance channels. However, we will listen, on a strictly confidential basis, to any staff members of any financial institution who may have relevant regulatory information and, where appropriate, we will act on that information.

We have required all credit institutions and bureaux de change to conduct a review of charges imposed on customers. We are examining all charges advised and are checking them to ensure all charges have been correctly notified and approved.

We have already commenced consumer-focused inspections of banks' headquarters and branches. These inspections are designed to test, on a random basis, the banks' own compliance systems and to raise compliance standards. This will not, however, eliminate breaches of requirements. In the new consumer-focused environment, financial institutions will be required to demonstrate their systems of control and audit cover consumer issues and consumer law. The key responsibility for the prevention of breaches of consumer-focused requirements remains squarely with the board and management of each firm.

Proven serious misbehaviour, including deliberate tax evasion, deliberate misleading of customers or deliberate concealment of facts from the financial regulator are taken extremely seriously when assessing a person's fitness and probity. Such proven behaviour or action will lead the financial regulator to disqualify persons from holding approved posts in the financial services industry.

In publishing our report on AIB within months of these issues arising, we ensured the key findings of our investigations were highlighted and put into the public domain in a timely manner in the public interest. It was very important — for the customers of AIB, for AIB itself, for consumers and the financial services industry in general — that the facts behind the issues covered in this report were highlighted and published without any delay. We wanted to raise these issues early and ensure that the appropriate remedial actions by AIB were clearly identified and acted upon. We will continue to monitor the implementation of the action programme under way in AIB to ensure this is the case.

It is also, of course, important that the financial services industry as a whole learns from this so that the consumer is always put centre-stage and that the type of activities described in both the AIB and the NIB reports do not recur. The failures uncovered by the investigations are completely unacceptable. We will not tolerate such practices within the financial services industry. Customers deserve better than this. As I have already stated, financial institutions that put short-term cost considerations before their customers and their regulatory obligations will ultimately suffer in the long term, as these events have shown.

I thank Dr. O'Reilly. He and his organisation are working in good faith. Having perused the two documents presented today, am I correct in saying it was media people and whistleblowers who exposed these issues?

Dr. O’Reilly

In the case of the charges, we were informed by a whistleblower before the media were informed, and we were taking action on the issue as a result of that. The question seems to be whether we are always going to arrive breathless, as Deputy Burton put it. The answer to that is "No". That is why we are designing our systems in a way that will get to these issues much earlier. The culture within organisations is one of the most important elements in ensuring that such issues are reported in a proper manner and that the boards and management take proper responsibility.

I am sorry to interrupt Dr. O'Reilly, but in the second-last paragraph of the statement it is stated that judging whether people are meeting standards of probity will include supporting and rewarding staff within a firm for taking an ethical approach to their work. I do not know what that means.

Dr. O’Reilly

One of the major advantages is that a financial firm that puts the customer at the centre of its concerns will benefit in the long run. If a customer is dealt with in a shoddy manner or if concerns about, for example, bonuses or short-term profits are not reported upwards for whatever reason, that is not the way to run a firm. That is what we mean by behaviours.

From my experience in business, people are honest or they are not. People know themselves. Dr. O'Reilly knows the point I am making.

Dr. O’Reilly

One of the major things we found is that perhaps more than that is needed. The culture of honesty and integrity and what is expected of a person within an organisation must be inculcated through training programmes throughout the institution.

Is it not top-down? Do the people at the top not set the culture?

Dr. O’Reilly

That is why we concentrate on assessing firms on the probity and integrity of the people at the top.

Mr. Neary

I have a comment to add to Dr. O'Reilly's. In assessing managerial performance or achievement of objectives by key staff, the measure is not just the bottom line. One of the essential measures should be to what extent they have shown their support of ethical standards and have contributed to a proper culture in the organisation. We would like to see that culture being established in organisations rather than emphasis on the bottom line. That is what this is about.

Deputy Bruton

I do not want to prolong this. However, it strikes me that AIB has suffered no penalty. Dr. O'Reilly says it suffers reputational damage. It is certainly not clear in its share value or in any of the indicators that people look at.

This began with little attention to the importance of consumer loss. It was not observed. When it was discovered, many were aware and did nothing. We are told that as recently as November 2003 when there was an opportunity to answer, AIB did not answer. Again in April 2004, only last year, it seems to have been trying to mend its hand surreptitiously but did not own up to its history of non-compliance. Then there were artificial deals. Perhaps the 1995 Act changed things. However, it seems almost criminal to do a deal and then decide arbitrarily which person gets the benefit. Is that not what burglars do? They arbitrarily decide who ought to get the benefit of certain properties. Perhaps that is seeing the issue with the benefit of hindsight, but the bottom line here is that AIB suffers no penalty. It is having to carry out internal investigations of the fitness to practice of individuals which, I am sure, is very painful and difficult for the organisation. That reflects that IFSRA cannot do it because there does not appear to have been offences at the time.

What worries me is that there will be a process in which individuals will be fingered as being culpable, but the organisation itself does not seem to bear penalties. It strikes me that something is amiss in the regulatory system. Dr. O'Reilly said in regard to the last case that IFSRA must concentrate on the 19 individuals. However, there is also the environment in which individuals work. There must be organisational responsibility and organisational culpability. I do not see how that is being addressed in the way in which IFSRA is approaching both of these regulatory breakdowns. Individuals will suffer. Eventually they will lose their chance to make their livelihood in the financial industry. Perhaps that is all they will lose. That is what leaves me with a feeling that there is something missing in the way in which we are handling these regulatory non-compliance issues.

Dr. O’Reilly

I share the Deputy's frustration. We need to draw a distinction between those matters that occurred before 1 August and those that occur after 1 August, when the sanctions of fines, of naming and shaming, are available to us under the legislation. There is a moot point regarding the level of the fine. However, there will be regulatory requirements and fines for breaches of regulatory requirements. Regarding whether we are happy that an institution should not have been fined in this case, it would be invidious of me to try and draw distinctions. I have to deal with the powers I have at present. I cannot, therefore, say today whether AIB will be fined, but our processes and procedures would be different in a fining regime than they were during this one. Our major objective was to make sure that customers were repaid, that we got to the bottom of the problem and that the individuals who were culpable would be disciplined.

We are in the middle of a disciplinary process and therefore cannot go into individuals' names. It would be inappropriate and irresponsible of me to do that. However, this is not over from the point of view of who will suffer. The institution has paid a large amount of money in terms of the investigations, the amount it is repaying to customers and its reputation among customers, in Ireland certainly, notwithstanding what happens to the share price. If I knew why share prices moved, perhaps I would not be here today.

Deputy Bruton

It will be slightly disproportionate because an individual loses his or her livelihood but the institution pays €5 million, which is buttons in terms of most of these institutions. Has the Legislature got the balance wrong to some extent?

Dr. O’Reilly

That is a matter for the Legislature. As a financial regulator I am interested in ensuring the individuals within the institution are the right people and that the systems and controls in the institution are such that problems will come to light as quickly as possible. That is my first priority. I could be dealing with court cases about individuals and dragging down all my resources while the institution is continuing to have these problems. My first priority is to solve the problems. In terms of what we do in the future, we are in a consultation process on the sanctions and the way we intend to apply them. The way that dovetails into the fitness and probity consultation and how we will operate the two together is something on which we have to dot the i's and cross the t's, and we would be grateful for the committee's views on how we should go forward.

One of the major discoveries in examining this is that, amazingly, people working in institutions do not appear to know what is expected of them. That appears to be down to a major lack of training. For example, when do they report upwards? What responsibility do they have to report something to their boss? Who sets the priorities on compliance regarding the internal audit reports? Regarding the foreign exchange charges, there was no priority on checking out the compliance with the FX charges and as a result that fell through the cracks. As a regulator I have to make sure that I set up this super structure properly in order that we can deal with problems as they go forward.

Dr. O'Reilly and his staff have done an immense amount of work. I am not happy with all the outcomes but I acknowledge that he has worked very hard to get us to this state. If we appear unhappy it is because we might like to see higher levels of perfection and action.

Regarding the trades where inappropriate deal allocations were made, the reality is that in other professions such as solicitors or accountants where clients' money is held and used in a particular way, it is an offence to dip into clients' funds improperly and deal with it outside of the instructions the client has left. In the case of Allied Irish Bank investment managers, at the time it was one of the major holders of pension funds on behalf of workers throughout the country. We do not know who these accounts were for but in the case of AIBIM, along with a number of other pension fund managers, that was the bulk of their business. I remain concerned that they could have inappropriate deals in respect of their holding of funds on behalf of other people, particularly on behalf of workers or others who were putting money into their pension fund for their retirement. That is serious.

I accept Dr. O'Reilly's point that the Investment Intermediaries Act has cleaned up much of that practice but is he satisfied that will remain the case in the future? Investment funds for pension purposes are a major area of banking investment and if the inappropriate deal allocation is not shown to be punished relatively severely, what does that say to others who are getting large chunks of people's cash to put into investment funds? It must be remembered that investment fund managers do not offer their services at a cheap price. They charge very expensive rates, and always have done, for their services. I would like an assurance from Dr. O'Reilly that when the investigations are completed the persons involved will be named. It is not adequate that they not be named because this is an important point of principle. It is dealing with other people's money wrongly and hiding that fact.

We heard that some people in the senior echelons of AIB management did not know that they or their spouses had these accounts. This story has to be told in full and I would like Dr. O'Reilly's assurance that there will be full accounting in respect of this matter. We have no evidence to indicate that the beneficiaries of Faldor influenced or were aware of these allocations. We are back to the same point in all these banking inquires of mysterious perpetrators. We do not know who they were. Sometimes it appears they were the clerks at the front desk in the most junior positions but the banks, boards and so on appeared to have no responsibility for this practice, and that is very frustrating.

On the actions required on page 5, the second point refers to undertaking a fundamental review of product pricing policy and systems. As I understand it, much of modern marketing in banking is about the constant promotion of new or revised products. If banks produce a genuinely improved product, that is welcome, but if they are simply churning products, that is the point at which customers end up paying a great deal of money because new forms of account are set up for them and once a new product is produced, they have to pay the entry fees all over again. Is the issue of churning being addressed? It is a mechanism for charging very hefty fees, whether it is to business or individual customers.

The question of audit and internal audit is fundamental. In the course of the debate on the two Bills providing for the establishment of IFSRA I asked the Minister for Finance if internal audit should be given a recognised role in law. The answer from the Minister, and presumably from the Department, was "no" because in law the auditor is the external auditor. In banking the internal auditors are critical because they do the ongoing day to day supervision and it is to them that breakdowns or lapses in systems should first become apparent. I am aware that AIB external auditors were practically living in the place once much of this practice became public, with whole floors of accounting firms and people slaving over AIB stuff because it was so complex.

Would Dr. O'Reilly agree that the time has come to give legal recognition to the role of the internal auditor, particularly in the context of banking? Regardless of how good an established audit committee is, and he said earlier that the audit committee in NIB did not even get the full audit reports, can we create a legal strength for the role of the internal auditor? Would Dr. O'Reilly give that some consideration?

Regarding the tax issues, particularly as they arose in respect of Faldor, it must be remembered that Faldor was an offshore investment and tax avoidance vehicle. What is the position regarding the Revenue Commissioners? Are the representatives using their mechanisms with the Revenue Commissioners to explore that?

I wish to return to an item covered in Dr. O'Reilly's original report in December and which he specifically mentioned at the start of page 3 of his presentation. He said that in investigating the FX charges, the charge was reduced in April 2004 to the level that had originally been notified in 1996. This was done without informing Dr. O'Reilly, the regulator. These matters are open to the interpretation that AIB then intended to notify the regulator subsequently of a proposed increase and to do this without ever drawing attention to the previous breach which had persisted for almost eight years. Dr. O'Reilly said that the curtain came down in regard to penalties only in August and this was an attempt to have a cover-up — I think that is what Dr. O'Reilly is politely saying and he might agree with me on that — to change the charges. As this was an ongoing inquiry, why does that action fall outside the scope of it? It seems this, in very polite language, was a cover-up. This was an attempt by AIB to undo what had been happening for the previous eight years, to skip it past Dr. O'Reilly's notice, but he was vigilant enough to notice it. As the inquiry was ongoing, how did they get away with it?

Dr. O’Reilly

In regard to trades and inappropriate dealing, there was a sea change in 1995. After that the requirements on individual firms as regards the actual allocation of deals was much clearer and every deal had to be allocated according to the customer. The practice of adding up the deals and allocating at the end of the day was an unacceptable practice that pervaded the industry, but there were other elements of this situation in respect of which we have transmitted our views to AIB, with which it agrees, that what happened was totally inappropriate in any era. As a result of that — I do not want to go into this any further — a disciplinary process is taking place. It is not only junior people who are involved. I want to make that point.

As to what happens in terms of announcements, I do not want to prejudice what may happen. If I give the Deputy a commitment, it could undermine something in that regard. As much transparency as possible, in which I am a big believer, should surround what happens in the disciplinary process. I will leave the question on product pricing policy to the end and perhaps Mary O'Dea can deal with that.

Deputy Burton asked for my views on the role of the internal audit. When I was on the review group on auditing, I always considered the internal auditor to be an important person within a financial institution. That person has to have due recognition. As to whether that should be covered by law, it would strengthen the position and I would not be averse to that. The internal auditor has a special reporting line to the audit committee and it bypasses management. It could be argued that the audit committee, which is a statutory body, has, as one of its members, the internal auditor who has to report to that committee. In our regulatory requirements, one of the requirements on which we insist is that there is complete and transparent independence between the internal auditor and the executive on the one hand, and in respect of their responsibilities directly to the audit committee on the other hand.

In terms of what goes to the audit committee, there are many issues that the internal auditor has on his or her list and it is a matter for him or her as to whether he or she would prioritise an issue as low or high. That depends to a certain extent on culture, awareness, the sensitivity of the internal auditor as to what is and is not important. The internal auditors in many, if not all, financial firms, were not sensitised to this operational risk issue, but members can be assured that they certainly are now.

Am I correct in saying there are no requirements for qualifications on the part of the internal auditor? The external auditor has to be licensed under company law but is it the case that there is no legal requirement for internal auditors to be qualified, even though in many cases they are highly qualified?

Dr. O’Reilly

If that aided the situation, especially in the larger institutions, we would support that view. As the regulator, generally we pursue the idea of people being professionally qualified in various areas. If we were to talk about AIB, we know that the person who is currently in the internal audit position there is very highly qualified with international experience of international banks. We are very satisfied with the person in that position. In terms of considering individuals and their appointments, one of the key positions we would examine in any routine inspection is to ensure that the internal auditors in financial firms are qualified. It is not alone that they must be qualified but the internal auditor position is one that requires a personality who is independent of mind and is not in any way cowed by his or her environment. On top of that, there is the other side, that more work needs to be done to ensure that the environment encourages that sort of reporting, not alone by the internal auditor but by anyone involved.

As to the story on tax, from the outset of our investigations in September 2003, the Revenue Commissioners were involved in this and we are continuing to liaise with them. Anything that is said in that area is a matter for Revenue. The area in which we are interested is if they come to some conclusions about individuals who continue to be directors or were directors in a financial institution. We would want a report on that but we have no issues of that sort in relation to the Faldor issue.

As regards the Deputy's last question——

It related to Dr. O'Reilly's reference on the top of page 3 of his presentation to a cover-up being attempted.

Dr. O’Reilly

In the usual bureaucratic language, I would not disagree with the Deputy's analysis. She said it was a cover-up and I would not disagree with that analysis. The question in this case is why we cannot pursue this. Martin Moloney is my legal expert, but my understanding is that what is important is not when the inquiry starts but when the offence was committed. That is what must be pursued. Martin, would that be correct?

That is correct. The legislation commenced on 1 August. All these events happened before then.

Dr. O’Reilly

Deputy Burton's point is that the inquiry spanned beyond August, but it is not when the inquiry was going on but when the offence was committed that is important.

It is in relation to breaches after 1 August.

Dr. O’Reilly

It is about breaches by individuals rather than when the inquiry starts. It is about applying retrospectively legislation in regard to a breach.

In regard to the pricing policy, perhaps I could hand over to Mary O'Dea?

The Deputy specifically asked about churning. In the existing codes there are rules prohibiting churning but they have traditionally grown up specifically on the investment side. In developing the new codes, we are examining the applicability of that across many different products. We do not want to stop innovation in terms of good products because in many cases we want products to be actively sold. We also want consumers to switch, to do so between institutions and not to believe that they must accept what they get.

The Deputy is incorrect in that we do not want products to be mis-sold simply on the basis of fees and charges that apply to them. One way of doing that is by considering extending the rule on churning, but another way which would also be effective is to increase transparency on the fees and charges that apply to all products. We have started to address this specifically in regard to insurance products. We have published a consultation paper within the past few weeks which we have forwarded to the committee. This is an opaque area. The customer does not really know for what he or she is paying. The fees are broken down into different categories which customers have to add up. We want to improve transparency in that area.

Another important point to note is that as a result of all these issues arising, there are a number of lessons for us, as the regulator, to learn in terms of how we should look at and best focus our resources for the 7,000 firms we regulate. There are, for example, 900 bank branches. How can we best marshal our resources to protect the consumer?

With regard to the products, in many cases there appears to be a lack of end to end processing in terms of product development. For whom are the products developed, to whom should they be sold and is that what happens on the ground? In the area of discounts, for example, one tends to see more overcharging than undercharging, although one sees undercharging. Discounts are agreed either bilaterally or for groups and those discounts do not feed into the IT system. Nobody is responsible for monitoring them. We believe the most effective way of doing so is to insist on the institution having controls, putting resources into those controls and having audit checks of the controls. We will also follow up with our sample inspections.

Deputy Bruton

Will Dr. O'Reilly comment on the recommendation in the Competition Authority report on banking that notification of charges to IFSRA should be dropped? It struck me as an extraordinary proposal given the present state of confidence.

Dr. O’Reilly

I read the report and I did not get the impression that it was an immediate requirement. Section 149 is, at present, a basic protection for the consumer. It is not adequate as a total protection. It only covers a small proportion of the charges. We need to take a much wider set of actions to protect the consumer. We have been talking to the Competition Authority about switching, among other areas. I strongly believe that competition is the major protection for the consumer but competition must work. A major element of competition is transparency and choice. We have a problem with transparency at present and switching would help in that.

Another area on which we have taken an initiative and made a suggestion is the universal bank account. In other words, there should be a bank account with low, if not zero, charges. That would help many people in the sense of having the right to have an account without any charges attached to it. It would obviate many of the problems we see now with these charges. A plethora of actions need to be taken in terms of encouraging competition before we could envisage section 149 being eliminated.

I apologise for being late and missing the first part of the meeting. I welcome the group from IFSRA. I agree with most of the remarks made by previous speakers. The emphasis Deputy Burton puts on inappropriate dealings relates directly to the confidence the consumer or customer has in financial institutions. That confidence has been greatly shaken over the past number of years. Are the representatives here today confident that the inappropriate dealings that were found in AIB internal marketing in the early 1990s were not taking place in other institutions in the financial services sector at the same time?

We seem to be approaching this issue in a sporadic manner, mainly through the media. I accept that the investigation was underway before it was publicised in the media but members of the public are looking on from the outside and see what is coming out from media investigations and reports. They feel that politicians and financial institutions are only reacting because they are badgered into it when things are uncovered. Are investigations being conducted into whether these activities were ongoing in other institutions at that time?

I compliment IFSRA on its work in this area. I am glad it is there to do that work. I am somewhat surprised by the wording of some of the comments today. I do not detect a sense of outrage among members of the public who use a bank or other financial institution. Perhaps it is ironic for a politician to criticise the comments of non-politicians given that we are often accused of couching our remarks in certain ways. Page 8 of the IFSRA document states that proven serious misdemeanours, and these are listed, are taken extremely seriously when assessing a person's fitness and probity. Surely a proven serious misdemeanour should result in that person not being considered. I am aware that one must be careful in what one says but the ordinary member of the public would prefer more definite statements from IFSRA and, indeed, from politicians and Departments.

When something is proven to be a serious misdemeanour, as mentioned in this case, a definite course of action should be taken. It should not just be taken extremely seriously when assessing a person. There is a danger that the language used is too wishy-washy, for want of a better term. It should be more definite. Deputy Bruton was correct in his earlier comments regarding the section on inappropriate dealings. That is a serious offence and there is no room for equivocation. I am not saying IFSRA is doing that but the language should be more direct and positive when it explains what its investigations have uncovered.

However, I compliment IFSRA on its work. I accept it is looking at something that happened before it was established and that it is a difficult situation for IFSRA. Nevertheless, it should ensure that this practice was not rampant at the time. I have no reason to believe it was but I wish to hear IFSRA's view.

Dr. O’Reilly

The first question we asked AIB was whether it had checked its systems, processes and procedures and whether it was happy with them. We ensured there was independent vetting of that. We can never guarantee that nothing is going on. We have issues with institutions on a daily basis but we can ensure that they are not seriously deliberate and intended and that when mistakes occur they are corrected and so forth. I cannot change the facts of the late 1980s and the culture and problems that existed then. However, that culture and those problems do not exist today. I cannot say more than that.

Mr. Neary

I cannot go further than that. We have to take reassurance from the fact that when this investigation took place, AIB carried out an in-depth trawl through its systems and controls. It was able to confirm that it would not happen again. I do not wish to diminish the Senator's concerns about this.

There were three elements to the deal allocation issue. First, there was the element whereby the house made good for their clients' performance in order that those clients benefited against the house. The second element was the Faldor element, whereby Faldor benefited against the house. Third, and this is where we might be able to draw some comfort, there was a trawl of all the transactions between 1989 and 1996 and only eight transactions came to light. I am not trying to diminish this but to put it in context. Eight transactions out of thousands of transactions offers some comfort as to the scale of activity with regard to one client being disadvantaged in favour of the other. I am not condoning it but putting it into proportion.

Dr. O’Reilly

The next question is whether we can be assured about other firms. We are happy with the regime in place and the systems, controls and processes for exposing problems. We will always have problems. It is really a matter of ensuring that when the problems are thrown up, the proper action is taken and the customers, if they have been short-changed, are compensated. In terms of outrage, I am afraid I do not do"outrage" very well in public, but the committee can be assured that I am determined. Perhaps some of my colleagues could say if I do "outrage" well in private.

We could tell the committee what he does in private but as we are not subject to privilege, I think we had better not.

Dr. O’Reilly

It does not diminish the determination I have and the seriousness with which I take these issues. We put much work into this. My colleagues and I are determined to ensure we have an industry which has a proper culture and attitude towards its customers, itself and to the institution, in order that these reputational issues are a thing of the past. There will always be issues and problems. What we worry about a little is the work we must do to ensure it is not systematic within the system. I think we have some way to go on that yet.

Mr. Neary

On that point, there are two elements to it and I think Dr. O'Reilly touched on them earlier. From now on, the sanctions regime will deal with people who are in the industry and who are not behaving properly. On the other side, there is the fitness and probity of assessment of people trying to get into the industry. I suppose there are two processes trying to operate side by side. In the case of people who are in the industry and where there is proven serious misbehaviour on their part, it is clearly our intention to ensure those people are removed from it. Equally, for people trying to get into the industry and where there is proven serious misbehaviour, it must be taken into account and I think it is a hurdle applicants to get into the industry must overcome. However, there is that sort of dual process which must operate side by side.

Dr. O’Reilly

As well as that, I will watch my language. We should be direct and if we are not, we will certainly look to see how we transmit the seriousness with which we take these things, the fact we are active and that we are serious about our job.

I wish to put a few specific points to Dr. O'Reilly on his presentation on AIB. He states that AIB will consider and apply any appropriate disciplinary action against individuals found responsible and will report the outcome to the financial regulator. Dr. O'Reilly said he will continue to monitor that. That is one of the reasons IFSRA is here. AIB does not have a culture of disciplining people or one of heads rolling. That is one of the reasons there have been all these cover-ups recently, especially in AIB about which we are talking specifically. While not going into the myriad of cases in the past, I know when things went wrong in the USA, heads rolled. However, when there have been problems in Ireland and England, heads have not rolled. We were assured, when the report came out, AIB was quite clear that this would follow. Names could not be mentioned because of the process. We respect the legal right of the people involved. Is there an approximate timetable within which heads will roll?

Dr. O’Reilly

To give an example or a comparison, I think it was as a result of that the NIB report took so long, that is, because we were talking about names and about people's rights. I would not like to give a guarantee as to when it will happen. However, my perception is that there has been a sea-change within AIB at board and at executive levels. They see there is a need to ensure they establish the facts, allocate culpability and take action in relation to those individuals. They see this must be done as fast as possible. We will continue to monitor that to ensure it happens in a timely manner and that it is not dragged out.

By and large, all the people responsible for these issues in AIB are still there.

Dr. O’Reilly

They are under deep scrutiny.

They are still employed by AIB. None of them have left yet.

Dr. O’Reilly

I think if I start to say who left, who might have left and who is intending to leave, I will have started to name names. What I can say is that this is a very active melting pot at the moment.

All I will say is — I think Dr. O'Reilly will have seen some frustration here — that IFSRA is speaking to a doubting Thomas public on this issue. We have heard it from AIB for 20 years but have not seen it happen. IFSRA is here to ensure it happens sooner or later. We want to see this happen. If we are back here in a couple of years and nothing has happened, IFSRA and the committee will have been undermined and AIB will have got off scot-free.

Dr. O’Reilly

I agree. We must be seen to be effective and we need to be respected by the regulated entities. We need to see action on this front. We do not need words alone; we need action.

Dr. O'Reilly said that the firms proposing a person as a director or manager should take initial responsibility for checking the fitness and probity of that person before submitting the name to IFSRA. In terms of a director who has no contact with the organisation up to that point, that is, an external director, what does Dr. O'Reilly suggest the organisation do? Does he believe it should engage a private eye to check the person out?

Dr. O’Reilly

Perhaps Pat Neary could elaborate on this but we would expect the institution to ensure the person's background is thoroughly investigated and that his or her reputation and references are taken up properly and appropriately and that his or her record, from the point of view of whether there are criminal elements, etc., involved, is fully checked out to see if it is clean.

Mr. Neary

We will engage in consultation on this and, obviously, we seek practical guidance and suggestions from all consulted parties. However, we do not want applications from entities proposing individuals if they have not done any homework at all, leaving us to follow up on references, any foreign regulator checks and discussing these people with previous employers. That should all be done. We should be left with a fairly advanced proposal. It makes the process more effective from our point of view.

It makes it a little more disconcerting for somebody who has been proposed to be invited to join a board of a bank. I presume the first question is, "When you checked me out, what did you find?" It is a practical issue which will have to be faced.

In the case of one appointment to Cabinet, it is an awful pity it was not applied.

Dr. O'Reilly stated such proven behaviour or action will lead to the financial regulator disqualifying persons from holding approved posts in the financial services industry. How many people does Dr. O'Reilly believe are in that category, whether directors, executives or managers? These are approved posts in the financial services industry.

Dr. O’Reilly

As we are talking about 6,000 firms, by definition, there are at least 6,000 people.

Is Dr. O'Reilly referring to firms or people?

Dr. O’Reilly

There are 6,000 firms.

Has IFSRA authorised 6,000 firms? Are most of those firms in financial services?

Dr. O’Reilly

We are including intermediaries. We are including everything. Those at the top of the firm in those cases would have to be examined. In the case of banks, we are talking about boards and executive boards where one is talking about 13 or 14 people. We are talking about somewhere in the region of 10,000 people.

This is a mammoth task. I did not appreciate the extent of it.

It is fair to say there are requirements already in place in that regard. Somebody proposed as a director of a bank would have to fill out a very detailed application for the regulator with all their past history, etc., on it.

Dr. O’Reilly

Our consultation document is very detailed in terms of what we require.

We are doing this for two reasons, namely, to discover whether it is overly burdensome and whether there are easier and more effective ways of doing it. If one is trying to monitor 10,000 people and one does not have an effective system in place, it is worse than not having a system at all. We must ensure it is effective.

It is stated in the IFSRA presentation that staff members of financial institutions should not feel they have to go to outside agencies to raise issues of importance to those institutions. Does this refer to agencies such as IFSRA? When they appeared before us, we made a very good suggestion to representatives of AIB that staff members of that organisation should be able to go to an outside firm. This is now in place and it is a much better system than reporting matters up the line. Some of the major ICT companies operate systems under which staff can make complaints to independent outside bodies.

Dr. O’Reilly

In the first instance, the fact that people have to go outside is an indication of fear.

No, I disagree. That is a negative approach. Some major ICT companies, such as Intel, have such systems in place to ensure that top people know what is being said. These systems have not been instituted out of fear, they have been put in place to ensure the best flow of information.

Dr. O’Reilly

I take the Chairman's point. However, our experience to date indicates that fear is driving the issue. We want to ensure that the institutions involved do not have in place the types of culture that cause employees to go outside. I am not stating that they should not have superstructures in place which provide staff with the ability to go outside. Freedom to be able to talk frankly within an institution without fear of repercussions should be encouraged.

As I understand it, neither of the relevant Acts contains sections dealing with whistleblowing. A number of years ago the Labour Party put forward a proposal for a whistleblowers Bill. Does IFSRA face a legal problem in situations where people approach it in confidence, particularly in the absence of a legislative basis to give it the power to assist them? I am not referring to AIB in this instance because it appears to want to clean up its act. What is the position in respect of a person who makes a complaint and the bank involved believes it is being libelled or slandered? There is a serious issue surrounding the protection of individuals. For example, a person may have access to certain information and when IFSRA investigates the complaint, it might be easy to pinpoint, within the management of a bank, that one individual or a limited number of people supplied this confidential information. Does IFSRA require specific powers in this area?

Dr. O’Reilly

We would be talking about a nirvana in which people would not be afraid. We are a long way away from that. The more protections that are in place in the system from that point of view the better. As a regulator, IFSRA always ensures that if someone has spoken to us we would follow up on matters to ensure he or she would not be victimised at some time in the future. That is not to say there is not a need for further strengthening. However, the latter is an issue for the Dáil.

We will conclude our deliberations at that point. We have had a productive meeting and, on behalf of the committee, I thank Dr. O'Reilly, Ms O'Dea, Mr. Neary and Mr. Moloney for their contributions which were much appreciated. I do not doubt that we will meet them again in the future.

Senator O'Toole submitted a letter in respect of NIB and specifically requested that executives thereof be asked to appear before the committee before the sale of the bank is completed. Do members want to consider that issue now or wait until Senator O'Toole is present at the next meeting? I suggest that we wait until the next meeting. Any other items on the agenda are deferred until then.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 February 2005.

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