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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 2005

Annual Report of the Information Commissioner 2004: Presentation.

Ms O’Reilly

I would like to speak about my annual report for 2004 in terms of my role as Information Commissioner. There are a number of items that I propose to bring to its attention, with the committee's permission.

The first, and most pressing, is the continued decline in usage of the Freedom of Information Act. This decline is reflected both in the number of requests made to public bodies and in applications to my office. In all, just over 12,500 requests were made to public bodies under the FOI Act in 2004. This represents a decrease of nearly 6,000 requests, or 32%, on 2003. The overall fall between 2003 and 2004 is in line with the pattern of decline identified in my June 2004 investigation on which I reported to the committee last July. I am on record as saying that I believe that this decline is directly attributable to the introduction of fees for non-personal requests.

The Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu said that people are difficult to govern because they have too much knowledge. I am not implying that the thoughts of Lao Tzu were uppermost in the mind of the then Minister for Finance when he introduced the fees and restricted the Act. However, I have not detected any concern within the Government, or indeed the wider Civil Service administration, at the decline in FOI requests. The question of whether we are any easier to govern might make for an interesting debate.

In some ways the attitude towards FOI in certain quarters mirrors the approach adopted by officialdom, in some respects, towards the appearance of the first newspapers in Great Britain in Cromwell's time. Andrew Marr, in his excellent book on the history of British journalism entitled My Trade, recalls the life of Roger L’Estrange, the official censor charged with hunting down those who peddled and printed uncensored material. L’Estrange, according to Marr, was against the idea of any public newspapers at all and the censor wrote “because I think it makes the multitude too familiar with the actions and counsels of their superiors ... and gives them, not only an itch, but a kind of colourable right and licence to be meddling with the Government”.

On page 10 of the report, the effect of the dramatic drop in non-personal requests on some of the key Departments is evident. In 2002, the Department of the Taoiseach received 141 FOI requests, while, in 2004, that number had dropped to just 45. The Department of Finance received 326 requests in 2002. In 2004, that number had dropped to 78 and, in the case of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the figures were 205 and 52 respectively.

Since the introduction of fees and amendments to the legislation, the media uses the Act far less than before. Prior to the introduction of fees, journalists accounted for 13% of all requests submitted under the Act, whereas they now make up only 7%. The number of applications to my office has fallen considerably in the past two years. In 2004, they totalled 434. This represented a decrease of 61% on 2003 and a fall of 37% on 2002.

At this stage, applications are currently running at a level lower than that seen for most of the period since the Act became operational. I regard this as a very serious matter, not just for the requesters, who have almost certainly been deterred by the €150 it costs to appeal to my office, but also in terms of my role in monitoring the working of the Act. I do not believe that the Oireachtas, in introducing the amendments to the Act and approving the introduction of fees, appreciated just how draconian they would prove to be.

The Chairman of this committee recently stated that the Information Commissioner has expressed the view that she is the only information commissioner in Europe to whom people must make substantial payments in order to instigate appeals and that if we are out of line with the rest of Europe, we should come back into line. Not alone are we out of line with the European Commission, which does not charge a fee for freedom of information requests, but we are out of line globally with jurisdictions similar to ours. My investigation report showed that only Ontario charges for appeals to the information commissioner. The cost there is €15.60 compared with the €150 charged here.

Last year I reported to the committee that progress was being made in dealing with the backlog of cases on hands which, at that stage, stood at 663. I am pleased to state that 2004 saw significant improvements in this regard to the point that the backlog has been more than halved during the past 20 months, falling from 946 in September 2003, to 501 by December 2004 and to 428 by the end of June 2005. In all, the number of reviews completed by my office totalled 628 in 2004. In the months and years ahead, the office will be focusing to a greater degree on the other important areas of its statutory remit. It intends to disseminate best practice to public bodies and carry out specific investigations into the FOI practices of those bodies which this office has found wanting in the past.

The report details the obstruction faced by this office from the National Maternity Hospital, HolIes Street, regarding a review involving records concerning the post mortem or Dunne inquiry. In this case, the hospital, speaking at almost all times through its legal advisers, refused me the records necessary for the review to begin. It was only at the eleventh hour, faced with a threat of staff from my office entering the hospital and retrieving the records, that the hospital backed down and provided the records.

From time to time, some public bodies can be less than fully committed to assisting the review process. However, this difficulty is normally resolved once they are reminded of section 37 of the Freedom of Information Act, which provides that any hindrance in the performance of my functions is a criminal offence. In this case, the National Maternity Hospital, through its solicitors, adopted an adversarial attitude which was totally at variance with the informal approach to reviews taken by my office. In the end, the matter was resolved and I hope that the hospital and all other public bodies will reflect on this case when considering advice received from solicitors and when instructing their legal representatives during any such reviews in the future.

I want to bring to members' attention decisions of some interest made during the year. In one particular case I found that all communications and findings by the South Eastern Health Board relating to incidents alleged to have occurred in a particular nursing home should be released. During the course of my review, both the board and the home claimed that some records should not be released on the grounds of commercial sensitivity. However, I took the view that there is a significant public interest in people knowing how health boards carry out nursing home inspections in individual cases, that the regulatory functions assigned to the boards achieve the purpose of the relevant legislation and that this public interest overrode any commercial sensitivity that may have applied in the case in question. While it is now the intention of the Health Service Executive to release all such reports in the future, there appears to be some doubt over whether the names of the nursing homes should be released. I would say to the HSE that, in considering the release of such records under FOI, significant weight should be apportioned to the public interest factors just described.

For similar reasons I overturned a decision by the Eastern Health Board not to release a report on a serious outbreak of salmonella poisoning among customers of a fast food restaurant. Other decisions made in 2004 included the overturning of a decision by the Department of Education and Science to refuse access to records relating to the decision to close St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics and to relocate it to Sligo. In another decision, I directed the release of details of an out of court settlement between a senior hospital consultant and the North Eastern Health Board.

I thank the Information Commissioner for her presentation. The curbing of the Freedom of Information Act was the worst bit of work done by this committee in its tenure since the last general election. Ms O'Reilly has expressed some optimism that there has been a change of heart in the Government and that the penny has dropped. The truth is that the penny dropped long before her review. People knew what they were doing when they brought in this legislation. They knew they were curbing access to information and they knew they were setting out to do unconscionable things like levying charges for an appeal that would not be refunded even if the appeal was successful. These issues were drawn to the attention of the Government at the time, yet it pushed ahead. I do not share Ms O'Reilly's optimism that the scales have fallen from the eyes of the Taoiseach and his Ministers.

This was a stitch up. A number of high level civil servants, who were not independent by any stretch of the imagination, decided, along with Ministers, to do a stitch up job on the Freedom of Information Act. They did not even consult Ms O'Reilly's predecessor, who had a statutory responsibility for reviewing the legislation. We are now seeing the consequences of these decisions. The Act has virtually become a non-existent source of material for journalism. We all believe in the importance of the Fourth Estate and in the investigative powers of journalism. Effectively, however, the FOI Act has been neutered.

The Information Commissioner made some recommendations to the Minister on the last occasion she came before the committee. These included refunding the fees of an appeal when the appeal succeeds, improvement in record management policies, providing details of the waivers of fees and how things could be made more accessible. Has she had confirmation from the Minister that he is making any of these changes? That strange little working group sounds suspiciously like the last high level group which seemed to act as an intermediary between the responsible Minister and the Office of the Information Commissioner.

I would like to ask about the Information Commissioner's review procedures. There is always the concern that it is easy for refusals to be kicked off into a lengthy review procedure in the Office of the Information Commissioner. While over 600 reviews were completed, nearly 20% of them were three years old or more. How effective is a review mechanism that can take such a long period to determine? Is there a need for changing the legislative framework? These reviews have clearly become legalistic processes if it taking over three years for many cases. Do we need to consider streamlining the net decisions that have to be made by the Office of the Information Commissioner?

When speaking of some of the successes when she last came before the committee, Ms O'Reilly told us that the health board reports on inspections of nursing homes were automatically available. Am I correct in stating that subsequent experience suggests that it was not quite as automatic as we may have hoped? It seems that access to these reports is quite difficult in some cases, especially for third parties. There are commercial and other defences put up to prevent access to this kind of information. Does Ms O'Reilly see some need to change legislation to make it clearer on what must be reported in public? Defences of commercial sensitivity seemed to be spurious. These are commercial matters but the primary responsibility is to provide public safety and commercial sensitivity cannot override that.

Given that Ms O'Reilly's background is in journalism, why does she think that the Freedom of Information has been deserted by the journalism profession as a source of information? What changes does she consider must be made at this stage in order to have greater accountability through the Freedom of Information Act? People who are governed are entitled to see how they are being governed and the way in which decisions are made on their behalf. We should not run away from that level of accountability.

Ms O'Reilly has drawn the attention of the Oireachtas and this committee in particular to our failure to honour our responsibilities under section 32, which relates to the non-disclosure of records. Is she referring to cases whereby the Secretary General certifies decisions as part of a deliberative process which therefore cannot be disclosed? Perhaps Ms O'Reilly would elaborate on the committee's specific role and how we should now set about exercising our obligations under the Act to have the review. Perhaps she would also comment on the extent to which these certificates and special exemptions regarding secrecy have been exercised by different Departments.

Ms O’Reilly

Deputy Bruton is talking about secrecy provisions and some 22 different pieces of legislation. Under the Act, these should be reviewed to see whether there is still justification for remaining outside the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.

These do not include the newer certificates regarding deliberative processes.

Ms O’Reilly

No, this is quite a separate issue.

This relates to national security and diplomatic immunity.

Ms O’Reilly

These are provisions in approximately 70 different pieces of legislation. The review process began a few years ago but was not completed. It has now begun again and Departments have made submissions with regard to secrecy provisions. We are in the process of commenting on these, and whether in our view there is justification for the retention of the secrecy provisions.

A number of years ago, when the freedom of information provisions were being introduced, various Departments sought and successfully excluded certain items of legislation from the process from day one. Under the freedom of information legislation, this committee is obliged, every five years, to ascertain whether the original reasons are still valid. Over the past several months, each Department has done a detailed assessment and submitted it to the clerk of the committee. The Office of the Information Commissioner is going through these and she will comment on them. The submissions and assessments will then come back to this committee. In cases where the commissioner concurs with the Department, we will most likely accept the views of both. However, where the commissioner states that the reason is no longer valid and the Department states that it is, we will have to make the call. That item is scheduled for a work programme later this year.

Ms O’Reilly

We are attempting, with some success, to get to grips with the backlog of cases. An historical backlog arose from the establishment of the office when very lengthy decisions were issued because we intended them to be seminal, given that we were entering into a new area. This created a backlog and certain measures have since been taken to reduce it. I realise there are quite a few cases in the backlog, but we dealt with some 60% of cases in 2004 within a four-month period. We are getting to grips with the situation and are all concerned about it because we are aware that information delayed can sometimes be information denied.

With regard to journalists and freedom of information, I was disappointed when I issued the report and highlighted the issue that there was no more debate within the media as to why this was the case.

Sitting suspended at 2.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.48 p.m.

We are now back in public session. Perhaps somebody did not want to hear what Ms O'Reilly had to say.

Ms O’Reilly

By complete coincidence I was talking about the media when the fire alarm went off. From anecdotal evidence cited by former media colleagues, the fee is an issue. The initial fee of €15 is not so large, but sometimes the sheer administrative hassle of having to secure and process the €15 acts as an impediment. Beforehand, one could be sitting in front of one's computer and immediately dash off a request. That seems somewhat facile, but it is an impediment.

Also, because of many of the amendments, many journalists feel that they are not getting as close to the workings of central Government as they possibly were able to do before the amendments. I sometimes find myself in a difficult position because, as Information Commissioner, it is not my role to be a propagandist for freedom of information. My role is to administer the legislation that relates to my job and to do what the legislation tells me to do. Sometimes I feel forced into that position when nothing is coming from other quarters. I sensed some time ago, around the time "Prime Time" aired the programme on nursing homes, that FOI came back into focus again because the issue of whether nursing home reports could be released under the Freedom of Information Act was raised and because of the action that followed. Some people saw the value of that and why it was introduced in the first place. It is not meant to be an impediment to good government but an aid to good government and also a tool of democracy.

Many eastern European countries now see the introduction of freedom of information legislation as one of the hallmarks of their new democracies, and some of the legislation is very radical. It might not be easy for brand new governments and fresh faces to bring in radical legislation, but they are doing it. Even in Slovenia, Cabinet records are potentially releasable under freedom of information legislation.

In contrast to that, many of the older democracies, such as Canada, the USA, and certain of the Western European democracies, are scaling back on freedom of information, sometimes for security reasons and sometimes because the appetite for it has gone. I do not detect any great appetite for freedom of information within the Government or the wider Administration. It would sound ridiculous if I said otherwise. My colleague, Mr. Liam Kelly, tells me that some small administrative changes have been made arising out of my report, but nothing substantial. The Minister for Finance has stated that he does not intend to change the fee structure or further amend the Bill. That is where matters lie. My job is to perform my function as Information Commissioner within the parameters of the legislation.

Could the Ombudsman comment on the adequacy of the framework for releasing nursing home reports?

Ms O’Reilly

It is still unclear how this will work in practice. There must be due process. It was not the former health boards that objected to many of the FOI requests for the release of nursing home reports. Often it is the owners of private nursing homes who object and then we must to go through a process because any system must be seen to be fair. At the same time, we saw how intensely important it is to know what goes on behind the doors of nursing homes. Some of our most vulnerable and dependent people are there and we as a society need to ensure that they are looked after. Part of doing that is to ensure that nursing homes are properly investigated and reported on and that those reports are made known.

Do we need to rebalance in terms of the legal right to get information in the nursing home legislation which is being brought forward in the autumn?

Ms O’Reilly

If one takes the Long Title of the Act, one is always balancing the public interest with the right to privacy and so on. I do not have an answer yet. It depends on whether the HSE follows through on what it has said it will do regarding the release of nursing home reports.

The Ombudsman seems to believe the Oireachtas might not have realised how draconian the changes in the amendment Act would have been. Given the result of the vote and the approval of the amendment Bill, that is probably true. However, during the debate on Second Stage and during the committee hearings here it was sad to realise that many of the fears expressed regarding reductions in the number of requests under the freedom of information legislation have been borne out. It should be an underlying principle that the health of a democracy depends on the degree to which questions can be asked and suitable answers provided.

None of us should take satisfaction from the fact that we now have the direct opposite of the position that pertained at the time of the Ombudsman's last presentation in that role, that is, a falling number of such requests. If anything, the success of her office as Information Commissioner should be judged year on year by an increasing number of requests that shows the state and vibrancy of our democracy. Requests from the media are another element of that. It is worse here in that we are talking about a smaller percentage of a smaller amount, which indicates that absolute numbers have decreased drastically from what they were prior to the introduction of the amendment Act.

I have a number of questions regarding what has happened since. My recollection is that an independent monitoring committee existed following the introduction of the first Freedom of Information Act. That committee, which was an advisory body, did not meet for a two year period prior to the introduction and the passage of the amendment Act. Has the committee been reconstituted and does it have any continuing monitoring role? Is that element of independent scrutiny and oversight now gone from the freedom of information process?

One of the arguments at the time was that in respect of really important information that should be on the public record we, as Members of these Houses, had the opportunity to ask Ministers questions either in the Dáil or in the Seanad and to get appropriate answers. Those of us who regularly put down questions know that is far from being the case. I can cite a particular example. One of the first uses of the Freedom of Information Act in Britain was a request regarding who was benefiting from payments received under the Common Agricultural Policy in Britain. It transpired that the biggest recipient was the Tate & Lyle Corporation. I tabled a Dáil question to the Minister for Agriculture and Food asking for similar information. The reply was that such information would not be supplied but that I was quite entitled to make a request for it under the freedom of information legislation. It underlines the nature of the provision of information in our society.

It is also a rich irony that, particularly regarding the appeals process where the Ombudsman investigates whether the means of redress for citizens is appropriate, she must preside over a system where such a high level of fee for the administrative costs is sought and is not even refundable if the appeal is successful. The argument she makes regarding the existence of appeal in other countries and, where it does exist, the amount of costs sought, is pretty much unanswerable. It is doubtful if a significant review will be put in place this side of a general election.

Another issue I want to raise — it relates to the last point I made — is the extent to which citizens' redress is so variable. We have mentioned the €20 planning application fee which is deemed questionable under European law. European directives on environmental information do not seem to be applied, for example those relating to the planning fee. Even fees to the Environmental Protection Agency seem to be directly at variance with European law. In the last week of the Dáil session the Government decided to partially apply the Aarhus Declaration which deals with the right of access to environmental information by citizens. It is curious that a partial application of an internationally signed declaration is being brought in by the Government, I presume on the basis that the aspects being introduced are those that will cause the least difficulty administratively when providing information from the Government. I am not sure if Ms O'Reilly has information on that as Information Commissioner.

That there is such a predominant culture of access to information that is threatening the political interests of those who think they know the best way of running the country is something we should be worried about. Short of changing the legislation I cannot see any way of arresting the trend that occurred since the introduction of the amendment Act in 2003 and 2004. I do not know if that is an issue on which the Information Commission can speak.

Ms O’Reilly

As I said in answer to an earlier question, nothing has happened in regard to administrative changes. That is the position in regard to the monitoring group.

The main group which is sitting is the interdepartmental working group which reviews it on an ongoing basis but the monitoring group has not sat recently.

Ms O’Reilly

In regard to the various charges, obviously there is inconsistency. I do not have a role in deciding what a fee should be or the fairness of it. I merely point out that FOI requests from the European Commission are fee of charge. As has been pointed out before it is our records that are being held by public bodies. I can see cases being taken in regard to this matter.

I wish to refer back to something Deputy Bruton said. I have just remembered the question in regard to streamlining the process because it can take a while for reviews to be completed in the office. We have to be extremely careful in the process because I am not the last line of appeal — rather it is the courts. Recently there have been judgments, some quite significant, that go against the office. Even though sometimes they might be lengthy, that is what we have to go through because lawyers for the other side, the public body, will be more than willing to pick holes in every claim we have made if we do not do it properly. In that sense I am not sure how we can streamline the process because in many cases we are facing the courts when our rulings are appealed.

The report last year referred to the drop in requests particularly in regard to non-person information, which is the public records information. The effect is a great lack of interest and that one has to trust the media in the sense that if they do not feel they can get much out of it, they will not bother using it. A great number of records have been released and many still remain to be released. It is clear from my report this year and last year that despite the changes in the Act, significant records of great public interest were released. Even though the media may think it is not getting to the core of central Government there is still life in FOI. I encourage the media to make greater use of FOI because the media is fundamental in regard to getting information out to the people. If the media is not trying to access it the people will not get it either.

In regard to the European dimension I was speaking about general environmental areas. Increasingly in others areas Irish citizens are excluded from freedom of information because of their particular category, for example, adopted persons. There are restrictions on getting their own personal information about each other. Other European jurisdictions have different legislation that makes information in these areas much easier. For example, Irish people who were adopted through Britain have greater access to information about themselves. These are increasing dichotomies. I use that as only one particular example. Is there a role for your office in highlighting the fact that Irish people can get information about themselves in the European context that they are unable to get in an Irish context?

Ms O’Reilly

Possibly, but in regard to the Irish experience that is Irish public policy and I have to abide by that. I do not see it as fundamental to my role as Information Commissioner. There are many agencies, lobby groups and support groups for adopted persons who should be getting this information into the public domain. We had a case recently which related to the release of a small number of records in regard to an adopted person that was appealed to the High Court. We lost it. There is a public policy and a philosophy on how much access people should get particularly in a case where the birth mother does not want the information in the public domain. We have to abide by that. It is cultural also. Each jurisdiction approaches it from a different cultural backdrop.

I understand that and even having correct information on the public file on people I know who are adopted is an issue. As the birth certificate does not exist, it is an adoption certificate. Everyone who is adopted in the State and adopted through Ireland has on his or her adoption certificate, and all subsequent documentation, such as passports, that he or she was born in Dublin, regardless of whether that was the case. Is there a role for the Office of Information Commissioner in asserting that the correct public information is placed in the public domain?

Ms O’Reilly

This issue is so vexed that it should be dealt with under separate legislation because it is outside the scope of FOI.

In her presentation Ms O'Reilly highlighted a particular case in regard to Holles Street Hospital that she said would be of interest. She made it clear that the hospital was acting virtually exclusively through its legal advisers. She also referred to a criminal offence under section 37 of the Freedom of Information Act. Are changes required to make that clearer to those in the particular agencies or institutions or whatever, in the same way, for example, as the Finance Act did some years ago in differentiating between tax avoidance and tax evasion and in making accountants responsible by highlighting their role? It is obvious they did not see it as a criminal act. The chief executive of a particular hospital would have to be advised of that by his or her legal adviser. Clearly there is an issue that appears to be unsatisfactory with regard to the question of legal advice. I am curious as to whether the Information Commissioner can recommend some changes.

I have limited experience of freedom of information officers from the other side. Often FOI officers in institutions such as local authorities have another job also and regard FOI as almost a waste of time when they could be doing their real job. That is also my experience of how I saw it on the other side. Is the Information Commissioner satisfied that the resources have been provided to those authorities to enable them to meet their obligations under the Freedom of Information Act? If not, there has to be a juggling within the various organisations as to who will do the work of providing the information. There is also an attitudinal problem. I am not surprised the Information Commissioner indicated that has been a recurring issue through the centuries.

Deputy Boyle raised the issue of planning fees and the recent judgment of the European Commission in that regard. That was deliberately inserted to stop people objecting and to make the process quicker from an administrative point of view. It highlighted an attitude to the value of people participating in a process. In the same way, legislation had to be introduced to ensure local authorities understood the responsibility of allowing the press and members of the public attend certain meetings. There was not a culture that regarded it as an entitlement. That tells us more about the mindset of those receiving some of the freedom of information requests. It is not a culture exclusive to Government; it exists across a range of different State agencies. How do we overcome that culture? That is the easy question for the Ombudsman compared to the previous one. If we do not overcome it the spirit of the legislation will not be respected.

Ms O’Reilly

On the Deputy's last easy question about how to change a culture, the answer is with some difficulty. I have said previously that it is not enough to put freedom of information legislation in place and hope it will work its magic. All legislation is supported by the social, political and legal culture around it. Freedom of information needs support not from its own legislative base but from the various sub-cultures around it — political, legal and so on. We have seen that happen in other countries. Freedom of information legislation is brought in with enthusiasm, the enthusiasm wanes and goes into the doldrums, as I believe is the case in this jurisdiction, and after a period when people begin to see the value of it, that changes again but it does not exist in isolation. Regarding the areas the Deputy talked about — people not being properly staffed or resourced — that is all being imbibed from the outside cultures and I will not change it as an individual. It takes many influences to do that but the politicians are very serious players in that regard.

Regarding the Holles Street case, only a court can decide whether a criminal act has occurred. Holles Street is pretty much an isolated case. We deal with public bodies and most of them deal with us on the basis of good faith. What was strange about this case was that they were perfectly entitled to talk to us through their legal representative but it was quite an adversarial approach, which was at variance with the more informal approach we normally take, and it took a huge amount of time and resources from my office to deal with it. One of the basic fundamentals of freedom of information is that for the Information Commissioner to determine whether an appeal should be upheld, the records have to be seen. It is a basic requirement. How else can I do it? They challenged that and even brought in lawyers to give advice which resulted in major costs for the National Maternity Hospital. It was a very serious case and that is the reason I highlighted it in the way I did.

In regard to people working part-time on FOI requests, some public bodies are small and the level of requests they get is low. That would be legitimate. In other cases that is not the case but as I said in my remarks one of the things I hope to do would be to undertake investigations into public bodies that have not been performing well or have been sloppy regarding FOI in terms of timescales, quality of decisions and so on. When I have done one or two of those I hope that in turn will help to up everybody's game.

Before we conclude I want to ask you about the personal requests people make. I understand there is no fee for personal requests.

Ms O’Reilly

That is right.

I note on page 49 of your report the number of personal request applications accepted by your office reduced from 649 in 2003 to 160 in 2004. What is the reason for that massive drop, even to public bodies, given that there is no fee involved? I understand the argument about the fee discouraging people from making general inquiries under FOI but personal——

Ms O’Reilly

That probably relates to one aspect, namely, people who had been in institutions and were taking cases. We had a huge volume of requests from people seeking records in 2003.

In regard to public bodies generally, has there been a fall-off in requests——

Ms O’Reilly

In personal requests?

——or is the number approximately the same? There should not be a fall-off.

Ms O’Reilly

We noted in the report last year, having reviewed it, that there had been a slight fall-off. That possibly has to do with the overall——

Impression.

Ms O’Reilly

——confusion about the fees and also people believing it applied to them and that they may not be able to access as many records as was the case previously. People got confused about those two aspects but I believe that will pick up.

When the interdepartmental group was asked about that, following on from the commissioner's investigation report, it said that where fees are not received or people do not make it clear that it is an FOI request — in other words, they submit a personal request but not under FOI — it may not be counted. It may well be just a statistical aspect that is driving down the numbers being received.

Requests for personal information might be going in and answered without——

Outside FOI but not even being cleared or captured by the office. It is possible, therefore, that the two were working together.

Ms O’Reilly

Many of these have become almost automatic.

It should happen.

Ms O’Reilly

It should happen, yes.

That concludes our discussion with the Information Commissioner and in her role as Ombudsman. On behalf of the committee I thank you for coming before the committee today. I apologise about the fire alarm but it is nice to know the system works in the national Parliament and that we were able to complete our business early in the afternoon rather than having to defer some of it to another day. As there is no other business the joint committee stands adjourned until Wednesday, 27 July 2005 at 3 p.m. As agreed, the select committee will meet on Wednesday, 20 July 2005 to take Committee Stage of the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.20 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 July 2005.

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