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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2006

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

The committee is joined by Mr. John Burke and Ms Lynda Finneran from the excise policy and budget and economic division of the Department of Finance and Mr. Kieran Coyle and Mr. Paddy Barrett from the Revenue Commissioners. On behalf of the committee, I welcome them and thank them for their attendance today. Before the discussion begins, I advise them that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. I remind members that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committee or the Houses. We will commence with a short presentation by Mr. Burke which will be followed by an open discussion with members of the committee.

May we publish Mr. Burke's opening statement?

Mr. John Burke

Yes. In a communication dated September 2002 the European Commission initiated a discussion of policy options for the taxation of passenger cars at national and Community level. Following consultations with interested parties in 2003 and 2004, the Commission published a draft directive in July 2005. It states its objectives in bringing forward the draft directive are to improve the functioning of the Single Market and implementation of the Community's strategy to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. It argues that the functioning of the Single Market is impeded by registration taxes in some member states. In addition, it argues that individuals face double taxation when transferring their vehicles from one member state to another and believes environmental concerns should be to the fore in framing passenger car taxation systems.

The proposed directive has three specific elements, namely, the abolition of registration taxes on a phased basis by 2016; restructuring of the tax base in order that by 31 December 2008 at least 25% of total tax revenue from registration and annual circulation taxes would originate from a carbon dioxide based element of those taxes and that this proportion would increase to at least 50% by 31 December 2010, and a refund system for those passenger cars registered in one member state and subsequently exported or permanently transferred to another.

There is a wide discrepancy within the 25 EU countries in how each approaches the taxation of cars. Nine member states do not have a registration tax, while the member states that do apply different rates. In many ways, this simply reflects the different approaches to taxation generally across the European Union. A good illustration of this is that while the United Kingdom has no registration tax, motorists there pay the highest fuel taxes within the European Union. In addition, the UK annual excise charge, the equivalent of our motor tax, is by reference to the CO2 emissions from the car.

Ireland has taken the general approach in all discussions with the European Commission and other member states that taxation is the responsibility of each member state. This is long-standing policy in Ireland. We regard VRT as a national tax that falls within national competence. Simply, the policy is that the mix of taxes, their levels and rates are matters for EU member states based on legitimate choices. As regards the balance of taxation, Ireland prioritised tax reductions on income earned by employees in preference to other tax areas, which policy has helped create record employment levels.

We have stated we are willing to enter into the debate with the European Commission and other EU member states about the merits or otherwise of this proposal. However, from our perspective, it must be stated VRT raises significant revenue for the Exchequer, a total of €1.15 billion in 2005, which is used to fund vital public services. The collection of this tax is also cost efficient, with the large majority of transactions now done on-line. In addition, its collection, while obviously not popular, has not impacted negatively on car sales in the State. Latest data show an 11.5% increase in new registrations for 2005 compared with the figure for 2004 and strong sales are expected throughout 2006. Sales of new cars last month were likely to amount to more than 40,000, an increase of approximately 8% on the figures for January 2005. Given such a buoyant market, any move towards reducing taxes on new cars could be seen by many as unnecessarily reducing the revenue streams required to fund the level of public services the country requires. In addition, a range of issues within the transport and environment areas would point people towards criticising such a decision from a public policy perspective.

I referred to the concept of reducing VRT and how that might be perceived in isolation. However, in fairness to the Commission, its proposal would require that, while VRT would be abolished over time, the funds generated by VRT should be substituted by other forms of taxation on the cost of motoring. It is important that those willing to enter the debate on the draft directive understand this is the case. Comment suggesting the Irish Administration is resisting EU moves that would benefit motorists does not present the whole picture.

Would an Irish motorist be happier paying less tax on the price of a new car but instead paying higher annual motor taxes and/or higher fuel taxes? This is an open question but it might be worth noting that someone who is in a position to buy a new car every two or three years would benefit much more under such a regime than a motorist driving the same car over a number of years. The flip side of this argument is that new cars tend to have lower emissions as manufacturers continue to make improvements in this area. However, some figures for the committee to consider are that replacing VRT with higher motor tax would result in average motor tax payments increasing from €400 to €960 per annum. Alternatively, replacing VRT with higher fuel taxes would increase prices at the pump by more than 20 cents per litre.

VRT is charged by reference to a fixed percentage of the open market selling price and these percentages are categorised by reference to engine size. Motor tax is charged by reference to engine size. Ideally, the Commission wants to see taxes being charged by reference to CO2 emissions from the vehicle. While there is generally a correlation between engine size and level of emissions, we accept there may be scope to examine this further. However, the design and administration of such a system would not be without difficulty.

The Commission strongly supports the capacity of individuals to move cars between member states and stresses that car registration taxes cannot discriminate between those bringing their cars from another member state and those purchasing cars in Ireland. Ireland complies with these principles in that an individual importing a car into Ireland will pay the same VRT that would have been paid if it had been purchased in Ireland. Alternatively, if the individual owned the car for more than six months in another member state, no VRT charge applies. While the tax rules in place concerning private importation arrangements appear to satisfy the Commission and the European Court of Justice, the Commission now seeks in the proposed directive to ensure cars exported from Ireland would be subject to a refund of VRT in order to avoid double taxation. The Commission wishes to see such refunds operational immediately.

As far as Ireland is concerned, we treat VRT as a once-off tax on registration. Therefore, the question of refunds does not arise. The car industry has lobbied for this for a number of years. There is a feeling among the industry that there is an oversupply of used cars which are impacting on the values that some might achieve on a trade-in. Car dealers point to potential Exchequer gains from facilitating the export of used cars as VRT refunds obtained would be fed into new cars. However, where used cars exported are simply replaced by other used cars, any such Exchequer benefits would be negated. This is the kernel of the issue since it is possible that the end result of such a scheme will be that the stock of used cars will be made up of cars of a reduced age. This may be environmentally positive, with the industry churn being facilitated and financed by the Exchequer. It is also worth noting that while the industry points to low second-hand car prices and the problems that this creates, this set of circumstances is of benefit to prospective first-time car purchasers who generally buy older second-hand cars.

This proposal was discussed at official level by the 25 member states in October 2005. There was no great support evident for the proposal to abolish vehicle registration taxes. Some countries, including Ireland, stated that such an issue is a matter for countries to decide by themselves. A number of member states drew attention to the role that registration taxes play in discouraging car purchase and its abolition could result in increasing car numbers and emissions. Incorporation of a CO2 element in the structure of car taxation was received slightly more warmly but serious questions were raised about how practical this might prove to be, given the different systems in place.

There is some support for action on double taxation and the refund element of the proposal. The Austrian Presidency is expected to convene a second meeting to discuss the proposal in the coming months but it is clear that the directive may be the subject of discussions for some time.

The Minister for Finance has stated previously that we are willing to enter into the debate with the European Commission and other member states of the EU about the merits or otherwise of this proposal. However, he has pointed out that VRT is a national tax that falls within the national competence.

We accept that the Commission in its proposal is attempting to design a structure which ideally would go some way towards incentivising behaviour that reduces carbon emissions and as discussions progress we will be interested in the further views of the Commission in this area in conjunction with the views of other member states as well as the views of this committee. However, designing a system that is fiscal-neutral, as proposed by the Commission, is not without difficulty. It is worth pointing out there is an acceptance that the tax system can assist in reducing emissions in the transport sector as borne out by the existing incentives for purchasing hybrid cars and the initiatives in the area of flexible fuel vehicles and the promotion of biofuels.

We are happy to answer questions that committee members may have subject to the usual constraints applying to civil servants at this forum which I hope will not prevent a full discussion.

I am particularly interested in the final comment in regard to answering questions. I welcome our distinguished guests and thank them for the presentation. I am pleased to note under point 17, that the points of committee will be taken into account in moving forward. It is good to know we will have an input into such an important sector. When one looks at the motoring sector in Ireland and some of the facts associated with it, it is quite frightening. In taxation the motorist pays something of the order of €5 billion per annum into the Exchequer. The amount spent on motoring facilities, such as roads, and so on, does not come to half that amount. There is general taxation on motorists here amounting to approximately €2.5 billion. The number of motor vehicles here was approximately 2.3 million the last time I checked. The motorist is contributing a huge amount into general taxation on an annual basis.

In the context of the debate on this proposed EU directive that VRT should be reduced, if one were to ask a cross section of people on the street if VRT should be abolished——

The Deputy is——

——there would be a 100% "yes" response. It is an awful tax. In the earlier part of his presentation, Mr. Burke said it militates against the Single Market. I can buy a washing machine or an electric cooker in Britain and pay the going rate of tax in Britain and bring it back here and I do not have to pay a washing machine tax or an electric cooker tax. However, as soon as I decide to go down the road of purchasing a vehicle suddenly the huge imposition of VRT is imposed on me. That militates against the single market. It is preventing Irish people from availing of the facilities within the market and hence purchasing vehicles in other member states. There is a fundamental problem with its existence and it is one this Government, the next Government or some Government will have to address.

I am old enough to remember, as are most people in the room, that when we were becoming a member of the EU in the 1970s, for the Irish motor sector there was a derogation on buying cars abroad until 1998 to protect manufacturing here. It was a 25 year derogation and we were all led to believe at the time and subsequently that once that 25 years expired we would have the open market and would be able to buy our vehicles across the Border. Then, suddenly, somebody thought up the idea of VRT and we have this colossal imposition upon us. On the one hand the Minister for Finance is saying we are willing to enter into the debate but on the other hand, the presentation states that, "Ireland has taken the general approach in all discussions with the European Commission and other member states that tax is the responsibility of each member state". In other words, he is saying we will sit down and talk to you but we will not do anything. If there is one message the delegation can take away from a lowly member of the committee — it said it would take on board the views of the committee — it is that there is no point in creating the charade of going into the discussions with the Commission if the overriding prerogative is "hands-off our tax, we do not want to do anything about it". In that case one might as well stay out of the debate. One should not create the charade that we are looking towards the Single Market.

I appreciate I cannot blame the delegation as it does not make the policy, it merely implements it. Please forgive me for the little rant at the same time, although I have quoted from the delegation's document. In all seriousness there has to be a move towards opening up the Single Market. More and more people in this nation say that Europe is irrelevant to us, that we are not part of it, that we are left out in mid-Atlantic and nobody cares too much about us. Yes, Ireland is a small State and many people feel we are not gaining the advantages. One of the big advantages would be a reduction in VRT and it can be withdrawn over a ten-year period as suggested. The cost, albeit on a cumulative basis, is €100 million per year. It sounds simple when put like that but the Chairman, being an accountant, will be aware that when one adds the cumulative basis it is more expensive. After ten years the write-off will be €1 billion but it has to be done.

Of the €1.15 billion collected in VRT last year does any part of it relate to commercial vehicles? Is there a VRT component for commercial vehicles? The tourist bus sector and those who operate the school transport system purchase large volumes of commercial vehicles from outside the State. There appears to be a huge importation of second-hand buses, most of which, are used in community circles, that is, providing school transport and, in my area, community transport initiatives. They are being heavily hit by the imposition of VRT and it must be examined.

How did Mr. Burke compute his estimated cost that annual motor tax would increase from an average of €400 to €960 per annum if we were to abolish VRT? Is that simply calculated on the basis that €1.1 billion in revenue must be collected and given there are 2.3 billion cars, the sum works out at €550 a piece? Is that the way Mr. Burke did his computation?

Mr. Burke

Yes.

What is the Government's increased revenue take on an increase of 5 cent on a litre of fuel?

Mr. Burke

On the matter of buses, Revenue might be able to assist me as to whether an issue arises regarding buses.

With regard to the costs set out in the paper, the Commission proposal is strict. It is not seeking an abolition of registration taxes. It wants to ensure that where registration taxes are abolished they are replaced by something else. If we were to abolish registration taxes and not increase taxation on motoring elsewhere, we would be in trouble with the Commission with this proposal. That is clear-cut.

The Department's overriding argument is that Ireland can indicate that our taxation policy is our own. How could the Department be in trouble with the Commission if that is the overriding argument?

Mr. Burke

I am referring to this proposal. We are at this meeting to discuss it.

Mr. Burke

The comment in the paper states that we would be open-minded and that the Minister said he would be so. At these discussions we may learn that other member states are putting together different frameworks outside this Commission proposal from which we could learn and which could be replicated here. That is what will probably happen in many member states, namely, that they will change their taxation structures and introduce a CO2 element, even outside the provisions of this proposal. That is the source of that comment, namely, that we may learn about some measures other member states are taking.

In relation to the €5 billion figure, I do not have the exact revenue figure that is collected from motoring, but VRT revenue is up at €1.15 billion. That is as a result of increased car sales and that many people buy big cars that attract the higher level of VRT. That figure is a result of that change rather than the VRT being increased in recent budgets.

How did the Department reach those figures on taxation?

Mr. Burke

Basically, €1.15 billion is the take from VRT and approximately €800 million is the take from motor tax. If we had to source that revenue from motor tax, it would mean that motor tax revenue would increase from €800 million to €1.95 billion. That is the type of percentage increases involved. It follows through that average motor tax would increase by 57%. It is quite a crude measurement.

On the fuel side, on what is the 20 cent a litre figure based?

Mr. Burke

The 20 cent a litre figure is based on an increase of 1 cent yielding €20 million. The intake from fuel taxes is €2 billion. Effectively, if we had to make up the extra €1 billion we would lose if VRT were abolished, we would have to bring in €3 billion from fuel taxes. Currently, the excise on petrol is 44 cent per litre and on diesel it is 36 cent per litre. On a 50:50 usage, the excise is approximately 40 cent a litre on fuel taxes. We would have to increase that by 50%, hence there would be an extra 20 cent on a litre of fuel. I can give the Deputy more details on that if he wishes.

I am confused. Mr. Burke will have to go through that a little more slowly. I understand that the Government tax take is 62.5% on petrol and 60% on diesel. If I put €40 worth of petrol in my car, I give the Revenue €25. Fuel is just over €1 a litre and Mr. Burke is suggesting that the Government tax take on that is approximately 40 cent.

Mr. Burke

I was referring to the excise element. The Deputy is also including the VAT element. When I referred to an intake of €2 billion from fuel taxes, I was referring to excise fuel taxes. There is a VAT component in the price of petrol. The excise element of diesel is 36 cent per litre and of petrol it is 44 cent per litre. The intake from that charge is approximately €2 billion. To substitute the €1 billion that would be lost if VRT were abolished, we would have to increase the intake from excise fuel taxes from €2 billion to €3 billion. On the basis of the average 50:50 petrol-diesel usage, the excise is approximately 40 cent per litre. That would have to be increased to 60 cent per litre, which is the source of the 20 cent figure referred to in the paper. I can supply the Deputy with more detail on it.

That would result in fuel prices increasing by 20 cent at the far end. If I were an old age pensioner, which I will be soon, and I wanted to purchase a vehicle, would it not be fairer to me and fairer across the board that any additional charge imposed on motoring should be related to additional mileage, additional use of the roads and additional CO2 emissions rather than to the initial purchase? If I were to purchase a car and one of my main journeys was to travel to collect my pension on a regular basis and I were to clock up 3,000 to 5,000 miles per annum, would I not be much more friendly towards the environment than a commercial representative who clocks up 40,000 or 50,000 miles per annum? Should the additional motor charge not be imposed on that latter road user as opposed to the current position? If I purchased a car for €22,000, I would give Mr. Burke's friends in Revenue €8,500 as a gift. It would make much more sense that if I were a pensioner, I should pay less for my car and pay as I use it rather than have to pay the initial charge, which is a major disadvantage to people who have low annual mileage. Has Mr. Burke a view on that?

Mr. Burke

It is a policy decision for the Minister, but the Deputy is getting at the crux of what is in proposal, namely, that the tax system should be more structured around usage rather than ownership.

As I notice from the monitor that I am due to speak in the Dáil soon, I will confine myself to a few points. The first matter I noted was the method of voting. The fact that there is less than a warm welcome for the directive tends to indicate that it will not survive in its current format and that Ireland is participating in the process in the context of ascertaining what might come out of it and what changes might be made to it. That is my reading of it. We are informed by the briefing document that the proposal seeks to achieve two objectives. One relates to the Single Market. I am not sure if the objectives are in equal proportion, so to speak. The other objective relates to carbon taxes. I note from the documentation that our road transport alone represents 84% of all transport-related CO2 emissions. Clearly, that is an issue. Mr. Burke also said there was a warmer reception for that element of it.

In the budget in December we essentially engaged in emissions trading as a means of complying with the Kyoto Protocol and that is the least attractive option to use. Mr. Burke said it would cost €1.15 billion to replace VRT if it was abolished now. The public, if asked, would agree with VRT being scrapped but if one asked people if they would like to see it replaced with an increase of 57% in motor tax, an extra 20 cent on the litre for petrol and, if that does not compensate for it, a reduction in the money spent on schools and health care, there would not be the same positive reaction. The issue is what question one puts to the public about this tax. It is possible for us to reduce our CO2 emissions from transport by, for example, providing a comprehensive public transport system. If that was done and VRT was scrapped, one then starts to impact on the money available to allocate for public services.

One of the matters that struck me was the convergence criteria for the euro, whereby we must be mindful of inflation, borrowing and so forth. When one asks about a more equitable way of funding infrastructural projects, such as building roads without tolls, one is told that it cannot be put on to the cost of fuel because it will cause inflation and that would get us into trouble with the European Union. I find that a little difficult to reconcile in the context of the proposition here. It is also difficult to understand that it is in the interest of people with low income when changing cars, although it makes it much more transparent in terms of the cost of cars. If someone cannot afford to change his or her car and must pay additional motor tax and higher prices for fuel, I cannot see how he or she would end up better off. Perhaps if one looks at it over the lifespan of a car rather than immediately, but there is a transition issue if it were introduced immediately. Maybe Mr. Burke would answer regarding how we comply in terms of the euro.

Mr. Burke

I am not sure of the exact question about complying with the euro. With regard to the last point about people on low income, it is mentioned in the paper. It would appear that it has the potential to favour people who can change their cars more often. The charges proposed by the Commission would impact on people who have an older car because they would not replace the car as often and, consequently, would not benefit from a tax free car under this proposal. It is interesting that the Deputy picked up on that.

Not long ago the former Minister for Finance, who is now the European Commissioner, got into trouble with the European Union for breaching the criteria. We have adopted the euro and there are certain criteria we must comply with to maintain the value of the euro. We are told that if we increase fuel prices, it will increase the rate of inflation. That is the context of my question.

Mr. Burke

There are minimum excise rates in place under the EU energy tax directive. Apart from the inflation considerations, we are not allowed to reduce excise below a certain level under the energy tax directive. That is another angle to this issue.

Mr. Kieran Coyle

Deputy Paul McGrath asked about the VRT on commercial vehicles. We charge a minimum rate of VRT. On buses and commercial vehicles, we charge €50 regardless of size or value of the vehicle, purely to aid industry and commerce.

Mr. Coyle

Yes. It is €50.

I join my colleagues in welcoming our guests. Recently there was a review — I believe it is ongoing — of tax reliefs and exemptions. Is there a review of the myriad taxation, including vehicle registration tax that applies to the transport sector, particularly to the private car? If such a review is not in place, would it be undertaken, specifically in the context of introducing an alternative to VRT that would be positively disposed towards vehicles that are more environmentally friendly, which would lead to less use of fossil fuels and which would be geared towards offering further encouragement to the public transport system as against the spiralling number of cars on our roads?

This is currently creating massive difficulties, some of which have been highlighted in the Dáil in recent days. In 1994, for example, there were 78,000 new private car registrations but in 2004 the figure was 150,000. That is almost double, a huge increase in a decade. That has an impact on the over-stretched road infrastructure and is a further concern with regard to environmental issues. It must point to a review of VRT and other motor taxation methods that is, I hope, geared in the way I described. We need more fuel efficiency and sustainability. That is not only in our domestic interest but is a global concern and one which I hope we will play our part in addressing.

I would be deeply uneasy and greatly concerned by any move towards a harmonisation of taxation. In some ways the jury is out because we would have to appraise the environmental elements in any proposition that might be presented. By and large, however, I am guided by the view that we should have the competency to determine our taxation codes. That is my natural disposition on this issue and I have not yet heard an argument that displaces that view.

I am anxious to know whether a review has or is about to be undertaken. If it has happened already with regard to tax reliefs and exemptions, which was a critical focus of this committee, there are justifiable arguments to spur such an initiative. I would like to know what the disposition of the Revenue Commissioners is in this respect.

Mr. Burke

A formal review of VRT and associated transport taxation issues is not in place. There is a tax strategy group which includes representatives of the Department of Finance and other relevant Departments which discusses tax issues. This is the sort of issue that would come within its remit. This proposal would be of interest to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Transport and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. We will be discussing it with them, in addition to other associated issues concerning car taxation generally. The Deputy may be aware that in the Budget Statement an extensive scheme of reliefs for biofuels and flexible fuel vehicles was announced. In the past few years we have examined incentives for new technology. There is arguably an acceptance that the car is part of the modern economy and that the best thing we can do is try to provide incentives for alternative fuels for use in cars.

I join other members in welcoming the representatives of the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners. Taxation policy being an instrument of a member state is a concept Irish Governments have held dear during the years. It is a good policy which is reiterated in the document before us to some extent. As Mr. Burke said, discussions are taking place; there was a meeting in October 2005 and there will be a further one under the aegis of the Austrian Presidency this year. I have no doubt that all avenues will be explored at that meeting but ultimately it is a matter of balancing the books. The argument is about whether it would be more equitable to raise revenue by way of VRT or elsewhere. One way or the other one must raise a certain level. Ireland has adopted a different approach from Denmark, for example, where the cost of cars is extraordinarily high, as are Danish income tax levels. One may praise its great services but in certain circumstances the Danes pay over 60% in income tax. Ireland has adopted a different approach, including low income tax rates, in the belief this is in the best interests of providing employment. This policy has been well and truly tested and proved to be a good one for our circumstances.

Excise duty accounts for 36 cent on diesel and 44 cent on petrol but for how long has this situation pertained? When were those duties imposed? When was the last increase in excise duty on diesel and petrol?

Mr. Burke

I would have to check but there was certainly no increase in the last two budgets. There may have been an increase three years ago but I will revert to the Deputy when I have checked the matter.

Therefore, there has not been an increase in the past two years——

Mr. Burke

No.

——and possibly even longer.

Mr. Burke

Even three years, perhaps.

Therefore, the inflated price of petrol was not contributed to by budgetary measures in the past two or three years.

Mr. Burke

The Deputy is correct

If members of the public were asked whether they wished to see VRT removed from the purchase price of a new car, they would, of course, jump at this but one cannot pose that question in isolation. It must be posed in a context where the public would want a similar amount to be raised from alternative sources. That is what the argument is about. Perhaps some day the country will be able to afford not to charge VRT on cars without introducing a replacement tax elsewhere but we are not at that stage, unless we want to close down public services which must be paid for. In that case, income tax would have to be raised or the tax base changed.

In Mr. Burke's experience, how determined is the European Commission to impose changes in tax regimes? Currently, member states hold onto their own systems, on which Ireland has stood its ground. How determined is the Commission to break this arrangement? Does he foresee it happening in the future or is Ireland in a position to maintain the status quo? Will a new treaty be required to change the system or can such a change be imposed? The issue is wide-ranging in that it applies also to corporation tax and other taxes. This would have implications for foreign direct investment in this country. Is the taxation code a sacred cow which is here to stay or can it be undermined, diminished or otherwise amended?

Mr. Burke

The Deputy is correct in saying there are some big issues concerning taxation and the European Commission. As regards this proposal, however, it must be agreed to by the 25 member states, like all proposals that arise in this form. Therefore, if one member state does not agree, the proposal cannot proceed. That is the mechanism under which it has arisen. Other issues can arise. For instance, the European Court of Justice can make rulings, particularly on indirect taxes, to which member states may have to respond. In time this area can influence policy on indirect taxation.

What criteria apply where a motor vehicle is exported from this country? Is there a refund of VRT? Given what Mr. Burke said, it appears the Commission wants to impose such an arrangement. Do we have a structure in place for this?

Mr. Burke

No. There is no refund scheme in place. Part of this proposal is that the Commission would like to see such a scheme in place. However, as set out in the paper, we do not think there is a great need for a VRT refund scheme. On the flip side, we have proper and appropriate arrangements in place for those who import cars. That is a much more pertinent issue with many moving to Ireland. While the European Court of Justice and the Commission are happy with these arrangements, the Commission wants to introduce this export refund scheme, on which we are not too keen.

Would there be financial implications if it was imposed on us? Has Mr. Burke done any calculations in that respect?

Mr. Burke

We have done some initial work but it is hard to quantify what the cost would be. It could be very expensive in year one because it may flush out an over-supply of used cars from Ireland in the first year. Beyond that, however, we do not have firm costings.

Does the Department have figures for the number of cars imported from other EU countries on which VRT has had to be paid? Are figures available on a country by country basis for last year? What information is available?

Mr. Coyle

We just have the total number of used cars imported into the country.

From other EU countries.

Mr. Coyle

No. We do not make a distinction. It is the number of used cars on which VRT was charged.

How many would there have been?

Mr. Coyle

For 2005 there were 35,000 plus and for 2004 there were 18,000 plus.

Is Revenue getting the VRT on a significant percentage of the cars? That 35,000 is a tiny percentage of the number of cars. In the village in which I live, I see many registration plates with LV, P etc. on them.

Mr. Coyle

Those cars are probably exempt from VRT under EU Council Directive 83/182/EU which allows residents from any EU state to temporarily import cars into another member state. It is a directive with which we comply completely. It basically means that a worker coming to Ireland from another member state may bring his or her car with him or her on a temporary basis while seeking employment, while on a contract of fixed duration or while working here when his or her main residence is abroad.

What does "temporary" mean?

Mr. Coyle

"Temporary" means 185 days in any 12-month period or six months in a year. However, it is a rolling figure where an individual who comes in for a number of months goes home and comes back on another contract. He or she may retain the temporary status. It also means that a person on a contract of fixed duration, which may be over one year, can retain his or her temporary status. Likewise, an individual from another member state whose main residence — by that we mean, his or her family — is in another member state may retain his or her temporary status for quite some time.

Most of the 35,000 are from non-EU states.

Mr. Coyle

Those 35,000 would be people who paid VRT.

Would they be from non-EU countries?

Mr. Coyle

They could also be people from EU countries who came here to live permanently.

Mr. Coyle does not know——

Mr. Coyle

We do not know from day to day the number of cars in this country on temporary imports but we know anecdotally and from talking to our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that there are a significant number.

That is at what I am trying to get. We know the number of cars registered each year but we do not know how many cars are coming in. We do not really know the number of cars on the road in Ireland.

Mr. Coyle

We do not because we are not allowed to have——

How do we gather statistics if we do not know the number of cars on the road? It is hard to plan for traffic if we do not know the number of cars in the country.

Mr. Coyle

That is true but under EU directives, we cannot impose border controls at our borders. If I want to drive to France or Poland, I am free to drive and take up employment there without having to report at a border station that I am coming into the country.

As regards people who come here to work on a temporary basis from other EU countries, how many cases arose last year where Revenue was satisfied people were not here on a temporary basis and that exemption no longer applied?

Mr. Coyle

We have some figures in that regard. In 2005, our mobile patrols challenged 11,876 vehicles. In these cases, they would have been vehicles our mobile patrols would have spotted a couple of times in an area or where the local gardaí or individuals informed us. In all those cases, we took steps to make sure the laws of the land were complied with. We issued a number of warnings in respect of those 11,876. Some 1,405 had paid their VRT on examination, seven were reported for prosecution, 54 were seized, 303 were granted transfer of residence, five were detained, 144 were granted temporary exemptions, 666 were exported——

What does that mean?

Mr. Coyle

It means the individual decided he or she was no longer a temporary resident in the country and was given the option of either paying the VRT or exporting the car immediately. Some 149 were scrapped, 35 could not be traced and 108 were transferred and dealt with in other stations.

The majority were all right.

Mr. Coyle

Yes. More than 2,000 were dealt with while the others were sent on their way and told to report to a VRT station and prove their residency.

Will Mr. Coyle send a copy of that note to the secretariat because it is interesting? I was not aware that detail was available. Members would appreciate a copy of that note.

I suppose I am coming at this from a slightly different perspective. I am sorry I was not here for the presentation but I have the document. The tone of what the Department of Finance said was that we must defend our high VRT against this potential assault by the EU. I wish to put a different perspective. In the past eight years, the increase in tax revenue the Revenue Commissioners have enjoyed has been over 20 times the amount that is raised currently in VRT. This proposal talks about halving VRT over 16 years and in the process, the remaining half of VRT would become a carbon-based tax. It is being promoted on the basis that it would reduce CO2 emissions and create more of a Single Market.

At least two and a half times more cars are being sold now than eight years ago. The Exchequer has benefited from a bonanza in car purchases. In that time, we have not looked at the potential to restructure this tax in a way that would be more environmentally sound or more Single Market-oriented. As was said, no review of this tax is taking place and it is not being looked at seriously. At the same time, we have signed up to the Kyoto Protocol and have said we will get dramatic reductions in our CO2 emissions. This appears to be saying to us that there is a potential to use a tax to get people to switch to vehicles which emit less carbon.

There is always a reason things cannot be done. Mr. Burke said: "While there is generally a correlation between engine size and level of emissions, we accept there may be scope to examine this further. However, the design and administration of such a system would not be without difficulty." That is a Sir Humphrey answer to the question. To what extent has the Department seriously engaged on this? There seems to be a genuine issue. We are substantially out of line in terms of car costs. We have the scope here to look for a more creative way to do this. In the past eight years, we have not reduced these motor taxes but have increased them. We have increased the VAT that applies to both petrol and car purchase and we have increased motor tax. We have been putting the screws on motorists who have contributed approximately €5 billion to Revenue.

Instead of just defending what we have, do we not need to see whether we can structure a tax system which asks motorists to make a legitimate contribution but which does so in a way that gets a better environmental and CO2 emissions result? Rather than saying "no" to this, should we not say there is scope here for serious reform which could, over time, reduce the cost of motoring and emissions, which would be good?

The overall tone of this is highly defensive. The suggestion is that it is our prerogative and that we will engage but there are hundreds or thousands of difficulties which make it impossible for us to seriously consider doing this. The tone is not sufficiently innovative in terms of trying to do something. It is a long time until 2016. We have a good deal of scope to do things and to be innovative in this area. Perhaps these are some good ideas. Am I judging unfairly the document before me?

Mr. Burke

The Deputy picked up on the comment that there was no formal review in place. However, I also stated the relevant Departments — the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Transport, and Communications, Marine and Natural Resources — engage at the tax strategy group. Such a topic generates cross-departmental opinion. During discussions in Brussels we are examining what other countries are doing. Even outside the directive, member states are doing innovative things, about which we are keen to learn. There will be discussions in the context of future budgets and Finance Bills on providing incentives for cleaner cars and so on. I referred to the budget announcement on biofuels, which is a reflection of us trying to provide incentives for alternative fuels, innovative technology, hybrid and electric cars. These are not encapsulated in the proposal.

Is the Department thinking about linking motor tax or VRT to carbon emissions? This is the core of the proposal.

Mr. Burke

The core of the proposal is that we should examine carbon emissions from cars and link the charge to such emissions. We are considering how this could be framed. Could it be done in such a way that the tax base would be protected and cleaner cars sufficiently rewarded? Is there a significant difference in emission levels between cars——

All that information is available and can be downloaded from any website. What is the outcome of the Department's examination of those issues?

Mr. Burke

Ultimately, the decision on this proposal is a political one. In reply to a number of parliamentary questions, the Minister has stated we have an open mind on this.

Is the proposal doable? Will it have an impact on emissions? The political choice can then be made. Has the Department shown it is doable and it will have an impact on emissions?

Mr. Burke

I refer to the difficulty involved. Of the 25 member states, only the United Kingdom has a CO2 element to its annual excise charge, that is, motor tax. That reflects how difficult this area is. We are examining what other countries are doing and it is significant that only one of the 25 member states has done this. That gives a little insight. This avenue has not been closed off completely.

I welcome the deputation. The Commission paper suggests transport is responsible for approximately 28% of CO2 emissions. Of this amount, road transport, in particular, is responsible for 84%. The Government entered into commitments under the Kyoto Protocol which potentially carry high penalties. The deal negotiated by the Government was not generous, given that our economy has continued to expand. Has the Department a strategy to undergo reviews that will assist the State to meet CO2 emissions targets? If Ireland does not meet the reductions it has agreed, it faces large incremental penalties.

Mr. Burke referred three or four times to the tax strategy group. Do I take it the group has not undertaken a study of this issue and how it will impact on motorists, car owners and the transport industry in Ireland? It is odd that no such study has been undertaken, given that Ireland has signed up to this target.

New cars are expensive in Ireland in comparison to many European countries. There is extraordinary conformity in prices offered by dealers throughout the State. There does not seem to be much competition. The motor industry often attributes this to the high rate of VRT. Has the Department conducted studies of this? Is that a reasonable contention on the part of the motor trade? We read that car prices in other countries are much lower.

Mr. Burke referred to the different taxes on cars in Ireland but did not include tolling which is becoming increasingly prevalent and expensive. Tolls are high on the new Kilcock-Kinnegad bypass. Does the Department have a grand picture of how much motorists pay in Ireland and how this compares in competitiveness terms to that in other member states? What is the response to our CO2 commitments?

Mr. Burke

With regard to the Kyoto Protocol targets, the initiative announced in the budget on biofuels will meet 52% of our target in the transport sector. That is significant and says a lot about the size of the biofuels initiative. The Finance Bill 2006 will be published tomorrow. Further details on the biofuels scheme will be released by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. The scheme will have a sizeable impact on our commitments in the transport sector.

The Deputy mentioned formal reviews. The tax strategy group is in place. There are discussions between Departments at my level and higher regarding VRT, car taxes, this proposal and how car taxation generally may fit in with better with the Kyoto Protocol commitments, the climate change strategy and so on. Meetings take place all the time.

The tax strategy group has given a commitment to publish documentation and the outcome of its deliberations. Is this available? I have not seen the documentation.

Mr. Burke

Each year, once the Finance Bill has been passed by the Oireachtas, all papers relating to the tax strategy group are published. A group paper dealing with all the issues surrounding VRT should be published. A minute on the meeting should be released in time.

Mr. Burke might appreciate that many motorists are confused by the regime governing the importation of cars by people from other member states who work here. It would be useful if he would explain the regime to the committee. According to his note, "An individual importing a car into Ireland will pay the same VRT that would have been paid if it had been purchased in Ireland". That was what all of us understood to be the case. Alternatively, if the individual owned the car for longer than six months in another member state, no VRT charge applies. This is what makes it difficult for people. As the Chairman said, many cars do not have documentation affixed to their windows. There are insurance and road tax certificates which Irish residents will not receive unless they have complied with the regime relating to the purchase of the car, which includes VRT. There are many cars on the roads now which do not display documentation relating to road tax, VRT or insurance.

Is it possible that these cars will stay permanently outside our regime and not have to pay road tax. I understand that road tax was an annual tax for the upkeep and maintenance of the roads, on which it is not always spent. However, it is broadly what it is called. Given what has been said, will people who go outside the jurisdiction for a period, and who have already paid VRT, never have to comply with this regime? If they go over the Border to Northern Ireland, and come back again, does it mean they have gone outside the jurisdiction and their six months period begins again? What contribution are these cars making to our road tax system, if any?

Mr. Coyle

There are three elements here, including transfer of residence, when a person transfers lock, stock and barrel to this country. These people are exempt from all taxes.

Is someone who transfers residence exempt from all taxes?

Mr. Coyle

Yes, from VRT.

What about normal road tax?

Mr. Coyle

They must register the vehicle within 24 hours of coming into the State. After that they are liable to pay road tax.

Has Mr. Coyle statistics on how many people have done so?

Mr. Coyle

We should have, however, we do not have them with us.

Members are interested in getting these statistics.

Mr. Coyle

The other element is people who come in here on a temporary basis. If a person who lives in another EU member state comes into the country to work, he or she can bring the car with them, which is exempt from VRT. They do not necessarily have to notify us when they arrive in the country, therefore, they do not have to register the car. Because the car is not registered in this country, it is not liable to road tax.

May I follow up on the Chairman's question? Surely from a security point of view at our ports — I presume 99.9% of vehicles come in through our ports — there is some oversight of the numbers of vehicles coming into the country.

Mr. Coyle

That is not the case because the people who come in here on a temporary residency basis come here exactly the same as tourists. As there are no controls at our ports for people coming from other EU member states, they can come here without any checks.

How do such people get penalty points if they do something wrong?

Mr. Coyle

They do not.

Are there no penalty points? It is getting better.

From what Mr. Coyle indicates — 35,000 and 18,000 the previous year — the numbers are significant.

Mr. Coyle

These figures apply to the number of second-hand vehicles on which VRT is paid.

These could be Irish people buying imported second-hand cars?

Mr. Coyle

Yes.

Or people declaring permanent residency.

Mr. Coyle

Yes.

We have no idea about the other people.

Mr. Coyle

No.

There was a discussion yesterday about the erection of gantries for the purposes of tolling the M50. Is Mr. Coyle saying there are no records of these vehicles? Despite the electronic gantries about which the Minister, Deputy Cullen, spoke, will there be no way of tracking the foreign vehicles that come in here?

Mr. Coyle

Even though it is outside my area of expertise, I understand that people will have a tag, and people who do not have a tag will go on to a slip road where they will pay by voucher or something else.

No, the Minister said yesterday that a photograph of the registration and so on will be taken on the slip road. Given what Mr. Coyle is saying, in practice, it means the vehicles will be untraceable.

Mr. Coyle

They will possibly be untraceable.

Is Mr. Coyle saying that someone who comes here on a temporary basis for six months, which may be extended, is not under an obligation to register their vehicle at any time?

Mr. Coyle

That is correct.

What about motor tax?

Mr. Coyle

Because the vehicle is not registered, they are not liable to pay motor tax.

I know it is not Mr. Coyle's area of expertise, but can these people get insurance here?

Mr. Coyle

This is one of the cornerstones of the freedom of movement of people throughout the EU. An Irish citizen can work in England, France, Germany, Poland or wherever under the same guises. They can bring their vehicle with them and have it there while they work on a temporary contract or whatever. If they work for a longer period, while their main residence and family is here, they have the same privileges and rights.

Is this part of Mr. Coyle's evaluation? Given the increasing numbers of people from other countries coming to work here, and the Government's policy of encouraging immigration at approximately 50,000 to 90,000 a year, has Mr. Coyle considered that an increasing group of people are using our roads? However, if I travel to France or the UK, much of this taxation is incorporated in petrol prices. If I use the roads in these countries, I will pay. However, given that a significant amount of our taxation is based on VRT, and that a significant number of vehicles are exempted from this, the band of Irish motorists who buy their cars in Ireland and live in Ireland are paying this cost. In terms of modelling the discussions of the tax strategy group, is the change in the patterns of road users and their origin in Ireland included in the examinations?

Mr. Coyle

I cannot comment on the tax strategy group because I am not a member of it. However, from a vehicle registration point of view, we are in discussions with other Departments. We had discussions last January with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Department of Transport, the Garda Síochána and the NCT service. Our next meeting is scheduled for March when we will discuss this and other issues relating to vehicles that are of concern across the different Departments.

Because these vehicles are outside our system, but are using our roads — obviously they are buying petrol and paying tax on it — do regulations in regard to NCT and so on not apply to any of these cars?

Mr. Coyle

That is correct.

Is Mr. Coyle saying that someone here with a two year old car will get notice to have a very expensive NCT test carried out, whereas some of the more mature cars which do not originate here do not have to do such a test?

Mr. Coyle

That is correct.

From anecdotal evidence it appears we now have a situation where these cars are here for extended periods. Obviously the owners do not pay VRT when they bring in their car, the registration numbers are not recorded, our regime does not facilitate them to pay car tax, they cannot get an NCT test and gardaí do not have any way of identifying any of them if they are involved in an accident. My question to the Revenue Commissioners about their job, is how do they protect the revenue due to the State which they are meant to collect in terms of car taxes.

Mr. Coyle

I gave the committee figures earlier about Revenue's involvement. In the course of 2005, we challenged 11,800 drivers and in 2004, we challenged 13,400. Revenue takes a vigorous approach to the problem and to identifying as many foreign registered cars as we can. We try to ensure that they comply with our legislation and EU legislation as regards temporary residence. Where we find they do not, we pursue them vigorously as demonstrated by the figures I have shown.

Let us tease out the process. When a driver is stopped Revenue takes the number, the make and model of the car and the name and address of the owner. Has Revenue now got a database on the 11,800 cars it stopped and does it know the names and addresses and makes and models of those cars?

Mr. Coyle

We do not have an electronic database. We have a paper-based form. Every time we stop a car a form is sent to our vehicle registration office and the individual is given 14 days to produce documents showing he is a temporary resident or whatever. If we find he is in breach of the temporary residence regulations, we take other actions as detailed earlier.

The figures Mr. Coyle gave were quite low. They seemed to be just thousands.

Mr. Coyle

The larger number are entitled to have their cars here under the temporary importation regulations.

How is that established by a mobile checkpoint?

Mr. Coyle

On the basis that they have tickets that show when they arrived in the country, a contract to show they are working here or information to state that they are actively seeking work here etc. We have not got a prescribed list, but leave it to the experience of our mobile patrol officers to interrogate the individual and satisfy themselves of the individual's bona fides.

If a person's car is not compliant or up to date with regulations in the non-national parent country, can it be impounded or taken off the road?

Mr. Coyle

Does the Deputy mean with the road tax in their own country?

With any of the requirements of their own country, NCT, road tax or whatever.

Mr. Coyle

No, we cannot.

Mr. Coyle spoke about discussions with gardaí. I am sure he is aware there have been many dreadful and fatal accidents involving non-nationals. A grouping of people from various Departments are discussing the issue. The Garda Commissioner mentioned alcohol as being a factor. Is the condition of the cars a factor, given that they are exempt from the national car test? Has that been part of the discussion?

Mr. Coyle

It certainly has. We had a preliminary meeting in January at which the NCT was represented. It is an issue that needs further examination. What can be done must be considered in terms of the EU directive. We cannot take a solo run and decide on initiating a regime which is in breach of the EU directive.

Surely gardaí can prosecute people who drive a defective car, even if it is imported.

Mr. Coyle

Absolutely.

If they stop a car on the road, whether driven by an Irish or an EU citizen, and the car has bald tyres, defective brakes, lights or whatever, the driver must face the same rigours of the law as an Irish citizen.

Mr. Coyle

I can only assume they do. When Revenue officers stop a car it is to ensure it complies with vehicle registration regulations.

Mr. Coyle mentioned that the mobile patrol stops people and that Revenue gets information from gardaí and others. Has Revenue a series of spies — as suspected by the public — around the country who report to it and who receive an annual contribution from Revenue? Will Mr. Coyle confirm whether that is the case?

Mr. Coyle

I am not aware of a series of spies nor rocks around the country that provide us with information. However, good citizens will give us information. For example, an individual may complain that his next door neighbour seems to be driving a fairly large, new and good quality foreign car and ask what Revenue is doing about it? In that case, Revenue might investigate it.

The opinion might be that he is driving a new car because Revenue gave him money to hand on information to it.

Mr. Coyle

I know of no such case.

We have moved to issues that may still be relevant to the directive. Perhaps we got to the aspect of the issue that the person on the street finds more interesting. On behalf of the committee I thank those who have attended the committee and assisted with their contributions. We ask them to forward whatever information notes they have on the issue and to keep us informed of progress and developments on the directive.

We will adjourn until 15 February 2006 when we will scrutinise COM (2005) 334, the amended proposal for a Council directive, 77/388EEC, dealing with the supply of services. The other item on the agenda will be a review under section 32(2) of certain provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 and the report received from the Information Commissioner.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.20 p.m. until 15 February 2006.

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