On my own behalf and that of the joint committee, I express our condolences to Deputy Bruton, Fine Gael spokesperson on Finance and an active member of the committee, on the death of his mother. Deputy McGrath would like to say a few words.
Business of Joint Committee.
I propose that the committee send a message of sympathy to the Bruton family. Richard has been an honourable member of the committee for a long time and it is difficult for somebody when he or she loses his or her mother, albeit, she had reached a great age. His brother, John, is also a former colleague. I am sure the committee will have no difficulty in agreeing to send a message of sympathy to the Bruton family.
On behalf of the Labour Party, I would like to be associated with the sentiments expressed by the Chairman and Deputy McGrath.
I am a member of the Fianna Fáil group and have been a member of this committee for nine or ten years with Deputy Bruton. I, too, wish to be associated with the vote of sympathy. As Deputy McGrath said, even though the lady had reached a good age, it is still a great loss to the family. I extend my sympathy to Deputy Bruton and the Bruton family.
On behalf of the members of the committee, the secretariat has arranged for a wreath to be sent to the funeral.
The first item on the agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 5 July. The draft minutes have been circulated. Are they agreed?
What is the status of the minutes regarding decisions on a number of matters? Are they recommendations or decisions? My understanding was that a decision on a particular matter would be put to the committee. Will you indicate the position on what is recorded in the minutes?
The position is that on the previous day we discussed the review of section 32(2) of certain provisions of the Freedom of Information Act. There were 40 items of legislation before the committee, on which there was a difference of opinion between the Information Commissioner and the relevant Minister. We proceeded to discuss approximately half of these in departmental alphabetical order. There was consensus among members who contributed at the meeting. The intention is to resume our discussion on the remaining sections today and next week the committee will decide to approve a report. A report has not been approved at this time. We will draft a report on——
Can I take it that while there was discussion, no decision has been reached on any of the matters?
There was consensus at the meeting.
Yes and the Chairman was responsible for chairing it.
I am clarifying the matter. We discussed all the items. There was clear consensus among those members who contributed to certain items. We will resume the discussion today and next week the committee will draft a report——
No. There was not——
——on our views. This has not yet been done, nor has a vote been taken to date. We have to agree a report.
At that stage the committee will make a decision on these matters.
No.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Chairman——
Regarding what occurred at that meeting, did somebody issue a statement about——
(Interruptions).
It was the Chairman.
I understand it was issued by the Chairman.
I did not issue any statement.
The Chairman was interviewed.
No. I——
The Chairman was interviewed. I heard the interview.
——informed the journalist what had happened. We were very clear that there was consensus among those who had spoken. The committee has not made any decision on a report on this topic and it is an item on the agenda for the next meeting.
On a point of clarification, I received a telephone call from a journalist who said you had issued a statement to the effect that the committee had unanimously agreed on the publication of league tables.
That is untrue.
Did the Chairman tell her the committee had unanimously agreed to this?
No. Who is she? I did not speak to a female journalist.
Did the Chairman read the Irish Independent last week?
I did.
There was a statement in it which indicated that you had——
No. The statement in the Irish Independent only indicated that I had chaired the meeting. There was no comment whatever from me in the article.
In the conversation with me she said the Chairman had indicated that there was unanimous agreement.
It is interesting that the Deputy uses the word "she". I did not speak to any female journalist on the topic.
That is not the issue.
It is not.
It is not the issue for this meeting one way or the other.
Deputy Finucane has intervened several times on this issue.
Deputy Finucane is not here.
The Chairman had a broad discussion on the principles of our approach which was that we would support the Information Commissioner's request for greater freedom of information. There were no dissenting voices, including that of Deputy Finucane, at this committee.
Deputy Finucane is not here.
I apologise. I meant to say Deputy Finneran. He was not here when those principles were discussed. In fact, he chaired one of the meetings in the Chairm an's absence at which the discussions took place.
Second, in terms of the agenda——
On a point of order, the purpose of the meeting I chaired on this matter was to establish a procedure under which the discussion would take place.
Yes. At that meeting I spoke about the broad principles we might adopt——
It was accepted by the meeting.
——which would be to support, in principle, the extension of freedom of information where it was being recommended. All I am saying is that there were no dissenting voices. In fact, Deputy Finneran will recall there was a good deal of agreement that this was the correct approach by the committee. What we did not discuss and what I do not believe is a matter for the committee is the issue of the difficult wickets on which different political parties may find themselves or they might find themselves at odds with the Minister or other party spokespersons. Our job is not to go into the minutiae of education policy but to examine the principles of freedom of information. I know the Fianna Fáil hedge school sat today and last week——
The Deputy is out of order.
——where Deputies get to meet Minsters.
The Deputy should confine her comments to the business at hand.
It must be the silly season.
I do not know if Ministers have been having a word in——
The silly season has started a few weeks early.
The committee did its business by taking an overall approach.
Correct.
I must say that in the interviews I heard the Chairman give he was faithful to what the committee did in that regard.
I point out to the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, via the Fianna Fáil members present, that there are many ways of approaching implementation of the concept of freedom of information. Our debate was neither for nor against school league tables; it was about the principle as per the Information Commissioner's report being published. We did not comment on school league tables good, bad or indifferent. That is not our job. Our job is to deal with the matter of freedom of information and we should be in favour of extending the concept.
We heard that the committee of 15, 16 or whatever was in favour of the members opposite taking a stand. This is their chance because the Minister has many ways of approaching the issue. What is the function of a hedge school other than to give Ministers an opportunity to interact with them?
I take grave offence to that remark. It is derogatory and should be withdrawn.
Deputy Burton's point is not relevant.
It is the second time the remark was made and should be withdrawn. It is a derogatory remark against my party.
Will Deputy Burton withdraw the remark?
The hedge school has a fantastic history and tradition——
That is the third time Deputy Burton has made the remark and it should be withdrawn.
——in Irish culture. I would have thought Fianna Fáil, Deputy Cregan in particular, would be delighted to be in line with a centuries old Irish cultural tradition.
(Interruptions).
However, if the Deputy is offended by the remark, I will withdraw it.
If the Chairman wants to open up that discussion, we can handle it easily on this side.
I understand it was Deputy McGrath's party which selectively leaked this item from the table on education, which is a sensitive issue. He is now trying to put the blame on the Chairman who was approached by a journalist having been told about it by Deputy McGrath's party. I am sorry but we must correct the Deputy. I remind Deputy Burton that she was very lonely on radio the other morning on the census figures. We might be able to enlarge that constituency to secure her future. A hedge school might be an advantage to her also.
I am simply clarifying what was said to me by a journalist. I quoted what she said.
The Deputy is being very selective.
The cat is out of the bag.
I thought we were in public session, as we were on the last occasion. It was an open discussion on that occasion which is correctly represented in the minutes. I question the statement that "the following is agreed in respect of the inclusion-exclusion of provisions of the Third Schedule to the Act...". It then lists the various topics. I question the purpose of this meeting if we have to reconvene next week and open up the discussion again. Either we have gone through it and come to conclusions, which I would have thought were decisions, or we have not. I thought we would then go through the outstanding sections and agree the report. That was my understanding of what we were going to do.
Exactly and that is what we did. A meeting was not scheduled for the next week.
The intention is to resume our discussion today on the second half. We are not reopening the debate but next week the committee will——
No. This was to be our last meeting. That is what you advised us.
No. We will meet next Wednesday, 26 July, when the Irish Bankers Federation will come before the committee. We also invited the credit unions representatives to appear.
It was not listed.
It was an item on the agenda. We have to compile a joint report. We had discussions last week. We will have further discussions today and will try to adopt the report next week. When we come to adopting a report from the committee, members will have agreements or disagreements with the final report.
If the report is to be prepared following today's meeting, how will it be drafted if we have to come back——
A draft report will be presented and members may agree or disagree with it. That will have to be decided by the committee at that stage.
Will it have to go through any other process, whereby it must be agreed by people outside these Houses to ensure it does not deviate from Government policy?
No, it only requires the agreement of the committee.
We have agreed that the minutes are an accurate representation of what was discussed at the last meeting. What is in the minutes will be reflected in the draft report. When we come to consider the report, members will have to make a decision on it before it is issued by the committee.
The next item on the agenda is correspondence.
We had a recommendation before us to which the Minister's response was to exclude it. We represent the Minister; we are on the Minister's side of the House. To be straight about this matter, we did not handle it efficiently or intelligently. I had reservations about it such that we were proceeding in the wrong direction. We must rethink this matter. It is in the interests of the Opposition members to have all the information available because they want to be a good Opposition. It is in our interests to represent the Government side and that is what we will do.
Is it in the Deputy's interest to close access to information? That is what the Deputy has just said.
That is not the issue.
That is a matter relevant to the Government. We might as well have no Government if we do not have a correct democracy. We live in a democracy.
Is the Deputy saying this must stack up with Government policy otherwise he cannot agree with it?
We will rethink it.
The intention is to have a draft report prepared for the next day and the committee will consider the report and agree, amend or adopt it.
I propose we defer——
No, we are proceeding with the remainder of the business that we did not discuss the last day. Members should be conscious of the fact that it is the members of the committee who will agree the report.
I have a problem with that. We agreed in principle on an approach and the Chairman is now inviting us to examine the rest of the material. We will have to wait until the Fianna Fáil Ministers read it and they will second-guess what this committee has done. Why do we not ask the Fianna Fáil representatives to bring the list to the attention of their Ministers at the next general meeting with Ministers — Ministers are in communication with Deputies — and ask them how they should vote on this proposal or what should they recommend? Today's procedure is nonsensical now.
The Deputy should not try to——
The Deputy is making a laughing stock of the committee.
I have written on the sheet of paper before me that we exclude this. We overlooked the matter and we should be honest about it.
No, the Deputy did not.
We did.
No, the Deputy did not.
The Deputy is trying to bulldoze this through but she will not do so.
I thought all the bulldozing was done on the Government side because it has the numbers.
As I recall a perfectly amiable discussion took place, to which members of all parties and none contributed. There was no contention about this matter until presumably somebody in the Minister's office said that they have messed up — there is a difference between the Minister and the Fianna Fáil members of the committee. I recall the members of the committee being particularly——
The Deputies opposite were trying to divide and conquer. That is their policy; that is what they want to do.
Deputy Bruton should not pre-empt what our decision will be on the report. She might be surprised by the decision of some members. We have a procedure in place to deal with it and I thank the Chairman for outlining it.
The procedure is clear-cut. We discussed 20 or more items the last day and will discuss a further 20. The secretariat will prepare a draft report. No report can be issued until the members of the committee approve it. It will be passed back here for discussion and approval, amendment or otherwise, as members of the committee see fit.
The next item is correspondence. Members have the schedule of correspondence before them. The first item is document No. 458, a letter from the clerk to the Joint Committee on European Affairs enclosing an invitation to a meeting of the European Parliament's committee on budgetary control and relevant committees of the national parliaments in Brussels. I take it that the committee wishes to be represented at this committee. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will produce the costings for the next meeting and decide the number of members who wish to travel at that stage.
The next item is a short letter to the clerk to the committee from the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny enclosing documents on the Finnish Presidency, which we will note. The next item is a letter to the clerk to the committee from the director of AIB Finance regarding mortgage switching. We will deal with this when representatives of the Irish Bankers Federation appear before the committee.
The next item is an e-mail from the director of Gurranebraher credit union, which we will note. We invited representatives of the credit unions to attend next week's meeting, but key members in the Irish League of Credit Unions are due to attend an international conference at that time and they have requested we defer the meeting until September. We will accommodate them at the first available opportunity.
The next item is an acknowledgment of a letter from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners regarding item No. 434. The next item is a European policy newsletter, which is noted. The next item is the French Assembly motion 207 on the EU budget, which is noted.
The next item is a letter to the clerk to the committee from the Registrar of Credit Unions regarding the meeting to which I referred. A list of statutory instruments is given, although reference has not been made to all of them. They are available in the Oireachtas Library or from the committee secretariat if members have an issue regarding them. Substantially they all relate to commencement dates under provisions of the Finance Act 2006.
The next item is No. 466, an e-mail to the clerk to the committee from the Irish League of Credit Unions, which we will note. An e-mail was sent to the clerk to the committee from the managing director of Campbell Gentry regarding item No. 466 from the previous meeting.
We are due to meet that group to discuss the credit card issue and its new proposals. I take it that is agreed.
That is agreed.
The next item is an email to the Chairman requesting that we formally meet the managing director of Visa. We agreed that members of the committee who wished to meet representatives of Visa may do so. The meeting will not be a formal committee meeting, although the members will be engaged in committee business. That concludes the remaining items of correspondence.
We will move on to resume the discussion on section 32(2) of certain provisions under the Freedom of Information Act 1997.
Before we move on to that matter, I wish to raise an issue. I requested some time ago that we include a visit to the CSO office on the work programme. The provisional figures of the census of population were published today, although I have not seen them. Before we adjourn for the summer recess in August, it might be timely if such a visit took place prior to August. I understand from the clerk that the headquarters we would visit is in Swords. I recommend we arrange such a visit before we adjourn for the summer recess.
The preliminary figures were published today.
The provisional figures were published.
It would be better if the visit took place in September because today's figures are provisional. The figures in which many would be interested is the exact figures on the detailed electoral divisions. As I understand it, the figures published today are the result of merely counting information, whereas the more detailed information will be available from the middle of September onwards. That may be the information that will be of most interest to members.
There is considerable information in the figures published today.
There is a good deal of information in the figures published today.
I have no great difficulty with that, but in terms of the debate that will take place on whether the CSO has the necessary capacity and manpower, if we do defer such a meeting until September, it will leave it very tight. If we were to examine what the CSO has at its disposal, we can visit the office again in September. It would be interesting to examine what is happening now in order that we can be informed for September and we can return to the office in September if necessary.
I will ask the clerk to contact the CSO and to return to us immediately with possible dates for a visit. I am sure that by tomorrow he might have an indication in terms of next week. We are due to meet next Wednesday at 3 p.m.
As we will all be involved in that meeting, could we visit the CSO on a Monday or a Friday?
It does not necessarily have to be a Wednesday.
It does not have to be next Wednesday.
It could be on a Monday or a Friday.
Yes, whatever date the clerk can arrange.
We have meetings; we have hedge schools. The Deputies opposite might have a second hedge school to attend which would be enlightening for them.
Where is the office located?
The hedge school.
The office is located in Swords.
The hedge school is held in the mountains.
There are no mountains. The Deputy's geography is wrong in that respect.
We will ask the secretariat to contact the CSO and ring the Government and Opposition convenors to try to settle a date for next week. We will take it from there. It might be informative.
There are two meetings of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business next week. The Greencore and workers' representatives are coming in.
The Committee of Public Accounts is meeting on Tuesday and Thursday.
We could make it Monday or Friday.