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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jul 2008

Banking Sector: Discussion.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the joint committee have absolute privilege but that this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Apologies have been received from Deputy Grealish.

The joint committee has invited representatives from the banking sector to discuss lending policy and money supply in the current economic climate. I welcome the representatives and thank them for making themselves available at such short notice to meet the committee. I welcome Mr. Donal Forde, managing director, Republic of Ireland, AIB; Mr. Richie Boucher, chief executive, retail financial services Ireland, Bank of Ireland; Mr. David Guinane, chief executive, Permanent TSB; Mr. Willie McAteer, executive director, Anglo Irish Bank; and Mr. Pat Farrell, chief executive, Irish Banking Federation. I ask Mr. Farrell to make a presentation to the committee. I understand he was here not so long ago when he made a similar presentation. Perhaps he could cut it from 15 or 20 minutes to a maximum of ten, if possible, in order that we will have more time to ask questions.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The presentation is different from the previous one. When I finish, I might formally introduce the four other representatives and ask them to speak briefly about their institutions.

We are pleased to accept the invitation of the committee. The Irish Banking Federation is the trade representative body for international and domestic banks in Ireland. We have a clear purpose, which is to foster an innovative, stable and dynamic banking system which contributes not just to the economic life of the country but also its social well-being. We take this seriously and it is subscribed to by all our members.

It is important to make a number of key points about the banking system. It is a key driver of economic development and growth. It does not just operate within the economy in its own right but oils the wheels of business and life generally. In addition, it is not said sufficiently often that the sector has a very strong service export performance. International financial services now represent about one third of our internationally traded services. Thus, it is a key component of growth in this country. To a large degree, it has taken up the slack in the shift from manufacturing to services. It is also a major employer. Banking and financial services employ more than 100,000 people, making them one of the largest private sector employers, representing more than one in 50 people employed in the economy. The sector is a significant contributor to wealth generation by virtue of the activities in which banks are engaged. It is also important to state it is very competitive. There are a large number of players in the market and the sector is well capitalised and profitable and has strong shock absorption capacity. It has negligible exposure to the subprime market, of which much has been said and written, and has consistently received a clean bill of health from respected agencies both locally and internationally. We have recently had reviews by the International Monetary Fund, the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority which conducts stability reviews on which it has a mandate to report to this forum and others, and the OECD which also carried out a report on Ireland recently.

The economy is advanced and as such, needs a well developed, internationally active banking system. The sector has delivered this very strongly in the last couple of decades and it has kept pace with the level of economic growth. While we have been challenged in other aspects of our infrastructure, the banking system has delivered. We also contribute about €2 billion in taxes and spend another €6 billion on purchasing goods and services in the economy.

In the last ten years there has been a significant number of new entrants into the market. We now have ten providers of business banking services, as opposed to four or five at the start of the decade, and 20-plus banks and building societies offering personal banking services such as current accounts, mortgages and so on. That number, again, has almost doubled over the same period. In recent weeks an established UK provider has announced its entry into the Irish savings market. The entry of new providers is continuous. In the international sector, a few months ago we saw Goldman Sachs, a global investment bank, establish a presence in the IFSC. Thus, there continues to be new entrants at both international and domestic level. Ownership is highly diversified, as our banks are owned by both local and foreign players.

There is a changed reality in the economy, both globally and locally. It is important to dwell on this for a minute or two because it sets the context for discussion. There has been continued turmoil in the global financial markets for almost a year now. We have had adverse changes in exchange rates with our major trading partners which have been well chronicled. We have also seen sharp rises in commodity and food prices. There have been changes at regulatory level, principally with regard to the introduction of the capital requirements directive. Locally, there has been an economic slowdown, as well as uncertainty. We are going through a housing market correction and, generally, consumer sentiment is more negative. Any one of these factors would have a negative impact but together they pose a considerable challenge. They all have consequences and a range of stakeholders — consumers, the Government, business and banks — must adjust to these new realities.

These adjustments are not confined to Ireland. They are having an impact globally, principally in Europe and the USA. This has resulted in changes in the funding landscape. Financial institutions must have access to funding in order to lend to the productive sectors of the economy and personal customers. The way in which financial institutions in the economy and many advanced economies access funding has changed in recent years. Under the old model — at a time when economic growth was at a much lower level than today — it was possible to fund most of the lending from traditional retail deposits which included both business and customer deposits, mainly from Irish customers. However, the world in which we live today is different, not just in Ireland but in all advanced economies. Some 40% of lending to Irish customers is now funded from international and wholesale sources. This is important because such sources have become more restricted in some cases. There has been a freeing up of funds in recent times but, generally, access to funds is less available than in the past and also much more costly.

Since the international turmoil began, access to funding has become much more expensive, not just for Irish banks but for the whole banking system. Before the events in the autumn of 2007 with which we are all familiar, there was relative stability in bank funding costs, but since that time there has been major and continued volatility in international markets which has significantly increased the cost of funds for the banking system. The market in securitisation, also a source of funding for Irish banks, has been largely inactive since the commencement of the turmoil in international markets. Interbank lending has also dried up and funds are generally harder to access and much more expensive.

That, in turn, has had an impact on mortgage rates. I have read some commentary about the linkage between the ECB rate and the charges banks pass on to their customers. The reality, as all commentators acknowledge, is that while there was little variation between the benchmarking of the mortgage rate against the ECB rate before August 2007, there has been a sharp and sustained spike in the interbank rates since. That benchmark is the one against which banks must price their funds in terms of lending to borrowers. The cost of funds for banks is at least 5%, and upwards. The Euribor three-monthly interbank rate, namely, the gross cost of funds to lenders, has increased significantly and has stayed well above the ECB rate.

There have also been changes on the regulatory front. The Irish regime for capital requirements is stricter under the Basel II accord. This is not specific to Ireland but has happened across the EU with the result that banks have to set aside more capital to lend higher loan-to-value ratios. That has had an impact and in one particular area, lending on land bank developments, the weighting on those is now 150%. This is unique to Ireland. The regulator's consumer protection code imposes additional requirements on banks when assessing customers and potential customers for loans.

Last and by no means least, due to regulatory changes which had their origins in the EU in the first instance, the liquidity risk management framework is recognised as a tough one. That was put in place some time ago and banks are now more regularly reporting their requirements. That predates the market turmoil.

The full impact of Basel II took effect on 1 January 2008 and affects countries across Europe. They have had the same issues in having to adjust policies in consequence.

There have also been changes in the housing market and an overhang of supply remains to be cleared, as is well recognised. There has been a change in buyer sentiment and house values continue to fall from historic highs. This is important because it has implications for the loan-to-value ratios at which banks lend. It is prudent for banks to take such factors into account when they lend in order to avoid negative equity situations.

There has been a corresponding effect on the borrowing capacity of customers because, ultimately, their ability to borrow is based on their capacity to repay. If we remind ourselves of the impact of this on changing economic circumstances and look at the increased cost of commodities in utilities and foodstuffs, people have less disposable income. Therefore their capacity to borrow is reduced. There is also greater caution among borrowers reflected in the fact that consumer sentiment is generally weaker. Against this backdrop lenders must continue to take a prudent and responsible approach.

On the business banking side there is and has been strong lending support to the private sector. This is across all sectors and covers various types of finance. As we speak, almost €155 billion is outstanding to business in different types of finance, both short and long-term. In the area of agriculture, forestry and fisheries, for example, €5.6 billion is outstanding.

In the accompanying slide material members will notice how the banking system, from 2004 to the last quarter for which we have details, is providing finance to all those sectors with which they will be familiar.

There is a current myth that banks are not open for business. They are very much so. The graph depicting standard overdraft loans for both under and over €1 million reveals that a degree of leaning has returned. For the period April to April, the latest figures from the Central Bank show that there is a consistently strong level of lending to business. That is indisputable and is verified by the Central Bank. However, there has been an impact on business. The cost of funds to the sector is higher, just as it is to personal customers. Credit has tightened somewhat but it is important to know that the most pressing concern for SMEs is not access to finance or the cost of it. The greatest concern is about costs associated with staffing and energy which also impact on personal customers. When one looks at interest rates and access to finance, for example, these factors rank much lower than many other factors.

The accompanying material includes an up-to-date survey undertaken by the Small Firms Association. Top of the list is economic uncertainty, followed by managing costs, recruiting and retaining staff and so on. Access to finance and its cost rank much lower on the list of concerns for business than might be assumed from some of the current commentary.

In the mortgage market there is very strong lending support to housebuyers. The value of the mortgage book is seen in loans that total €145 billion, loans that have enabled Ireland to have one of the highest owner-occupier levels in the EU, a very desirable social objective. In the period since 2005, about 110,000 first-time buyers have been provided with mortgages. This is a constituency on which we will all, rightly, focus. The graph available shows that from the first quarter of 2005 to the one just past, the figure has been steadily building to a point where there is €145 billion outstanding.

The most important of the charts shows the Irish Banking Federation's own data which we report into the market on a quarterly basis, and about which I spoke on my last meeting with this committee. Members will see that the volume of lending has gone down in the first quarter of 2008 but I emphasise that less lending takes place during that particular period because of cyclical factors. This is evident in figures for the same quarters of 2006 and 2005. The volume of lending is sustained and across all segments, top-ups, re-mortgages, first-time purchases and all the others. If we look at the figure for the first quarter of 2008, benchmarked against the same for 2005, the same value of mortgage lending was distributed by the banks to would-be house purchasers and borrowers. I would ask what was wrong in 2005. That is a very creditable performance against a backdrop where demand has decreased and house prices are falling.

Regarding mortgage finance generally, the next figures show that the decline in the housing market began in the first quarter of 2006. The chart clearly shows this from a number of indicators such as house registrations and house completions. My point is that the decline in the housing market began much earlier than the present credit crunch and much earlier than banks had reasons to adjust their lending policies. On the other hand, it is important to point out that the private sector and the banks and building societies are the engines for home ownership. The graph shows that while there were a number of other players in the market such as social and rented accommodation, affordable housing, etc., the lion's share of provision of home ownership and the ability to acquire a home comes from the private sector and the banking system, namely, our members, banks, building societies, etc.

We work with borrowers. I take issue with the view that seems to be held by some people, that we are in some way uncaring, or unwilling to work with borrowers who have issues. That is not the case. A regulatory consumer protection code exists which imposes additional requirements and assessment requirements on banks, building societies and borrowers in general. They are required to establish the suitability of the product for the customer and are also required to stress test it at 2.5% above the ECB rate. There is a range of measures. That statutory code follows on a voluntary code to which we still adhere, one we established ourselves concerning mortgage arrears, in which we undertake to alert customers who are in difficulties to contact the lender at the earliest opportunity. We practise this code. Both parties can then work out an arrangement and find terms that can deal with the matter to the satisfaction of everyone. That will always be the first approach of a lender, but it is also important that the borrower approaches the lender.

On repossessions, many figures have been mentioned but in 2007 there were 50 repossessions in total. All of these were voluntary and I understand that in all of these situations family units broke up and there was a voluntary surrender of the property. Figures have been circulated which are higher but in reality that is the number of repossessions for 2007 and for the previous year. The figures we have to date this year suggest there is no appreciable change in that number.

I will talk briefly about savers and investors as I do not wish for them to be left out of the debate. Borrowing is one side of the balance sheet but savings and asset accumulation is the other. Financial institutions have a responsibility to savers and investors and they have many of both. There is a very strong savings culture in this country and it is important people understand and appreciate this when discussing the balance sheet of Ireland Inc. and our individual balance sheets. According to the ESRI the savings rate in Ireland in 2008 is 5.8%. This compares with a savings rate of 1.1% in the UK as measured by the authoritative body there. The Central Bank and the ESRI data show strong growth in financial assets. Banks need to ensure their savings and investment customers' assets are secure. This chart, which has come from an authoritative source — the ESRI — shows the accumulation of wealth in household assets that has taken place in the country from 2001 to date. It is substantial and shows the balance sheet is strong.

In summary, there are global challenges and the international economic environment is challenging. These challenges are by no means unique to Ireland, as we all understand and appreciate. I have many press cuttings from European newspapers all showing the same message, which is that credit conditions are tightening and banks are having to adjust lending policies. The situation is not unique to this country. In recent days I saw a headline in most of the UK media publications stating there was a mortgage market collapse in the UK. This is not unique to this country. The banks operating in this environment cannot be immune to what is happening in the rest of the world, especially in a country with a small, open and exposed economy. We are exposed to what happens in the global international environment more than most because of the open economy. The banks here are well positioned but they must maintain financial strength so that they are best placed to continue serving their customers, not just in the short term but also in the long term. Banks are in the business of building long-term relationships with their customers, including both their borrowing customers and their savings and investment customers.

Banks have obligations to meet for a broad group of stakeholders. These include obligations to customers, employees, the regulatory authorities — it is a very heavily regulated sector — shareholders and investors. They also have obligations to pension funds. There are between 950,000 and 1 million people in this country who depend, notwithstanding current share values, on the performance of shares such as bank shares to provide for their long-term financial future and retirement. Last but not least, one of our stakeholders is Ireland Inc., of which we are very conscious. We have been part of the story of the growth and development of Ireland and this will continue.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I am responsible for Bank of Ireland's retail operations in Ireland. This consists of our branch network, mortgage banking businesses, leasing businesses, life and pensions, private banking and business banking. Our group employs 12,000 people in Ireland. We have almost €70 billion lent to Irish borrowers. We lend millions of euro every week and we earn more than 50% of our profits in Ireland. We have the No. 1 and No. 2 market shares in all the markets in which we operate. We have 276 branches and are present in every community in Ireland. I hope through that coverage that we have a sense of the challenges, opportunities and issues facing the communities we serve. We have a strong brand and high levels of customer service. We compete intensively with my banking colleagues present and the other banks not represented at this meeting.

In 2006 we anticipated the Irish property market would commence slowing. We expected this to have an impact on the broader economy. As Mr. Farrell mentioned, in August 2007 severe cracks developed in the world financial system. At first those cracks appeared in the USA. It was believed for a period the issues would be contained there. However, the issues which first appeared in the US banking system have translated into the wider world economy. Significant amounts of banks' capital has been written off and several banks — not in Ireland but in other countries — have had to go cap in hand to their shareholders for substantial injections of capital.

How is Ireland caught up in this global turmoil? In the first place, we have a very well developed and sophisticated financial system. This is not limited to the domestic banks which operate primarily in Ireland but extends to the very significant presence of large international banking operations working out of the Irish Financial Services Centre. The liquidity and capital regimes introduced and operated by the Financial Regulator are at least as tough as in any jurisdiction in which Bank of Ireland operates. These regimes have assisted in giving greater transparency to the way Irish banks manage capital and liquidity. Nevertheless, Irish banks are significantly impacted by global phenomena. There has been significant volatility in financial markets, rapid increases in commodity price inflation and a strengthening of the euro. All these factors have contributed to the Irish economy slowing down at a much faster pace than most of us anticipated. At the same time, interest rates have been rising. They have increased sharply from 3.25% in October 2006 to 4% today and will likely rise to 4.25% tomorrow. As Mr. Farrell also mentioned, the ECB rate is not the real cost of money to banks who borrow marginal money in the money markets to engage in new lending. The real cost of funds to us is more than 5% in the money markets.

A slowdown in the economy has happened. It is exacerbating problems in the property market. At the same time most commentators believe that the longer term prospects for the Irish economy are good. Most commentators believe Ireland will come out of the current downturn and that growth will continue again at some time. Against that background, I understand the validity of several comments which public representatives have made in recent weeks. Bank of Ireland has confidence in our business and in the economy. We lend substantial sums to the economy and we take substantial sums from depositors. We have responsibilities to our depositors and borrowers. We recognise that some of our borrowers suffer and we have borrowers who encounter problems in good times as well as bad. We are used to working with them and we wish to continue working with them, but we must remember our responsibilities to all our staff, customers, depositors and shareholders.

Mr. Donal Forde

Most members of the committee will be familiar with AIB's position in the marketplace. We have a relationship with one in every two businesses. We are the main loan provider to one third of Irish businesses. We have a relationship with one in three personal customers and we are mortgage provider for 150,000 customers, approximately 20% of the market.

The committee has heard Mr. Pat Farrell speak about a very challenging environment in international financial markets and the constraints that have come with it and the complex set of developments which have brought it about. That has been exacerbated by a slow-down in our domestic economy. That reality needs to be acknowledged as well as the fact that those difficulties simply cannot be attributed to the behaviour of banks, as has sometimes been suggested, and neither can banks alone provide the solution. However, that is certainly not to say that banks do not have responsibilities — we do and we have a role to play in tackling those same issues.

I can say categorically from an AIB point of view that we recognise those responsibilities and we take them seriously. We are taking every action that is possible to ensure we play our part in sustaining the success of the economy by remaining a strong and secure institution and from that base providing the best support for our customers. I wish to state clearly that AIB is very much open for business and our actions demonstrate that convincingly.

I wish to make three points, the first of which relates to the provision of credit. We have not changed our mortgage lending criteria. We did not relax them through the boom years and we have not tightened them in the past 12 months. We have not changed our consumer lending criteria and we have not changed our SME lending criteria. What has happened through the last 12 months is that the standing of potential borrowers has deteriorated. Their assets have fallen in value. Their cashflows have become more uncertain and the cost of servicing loans, as interest rates rise, is a greater burden for them. That combination of factors undermines to some degree their strength and capacity as borrowers.

Notwithstanding that, we are supporting AIB customers with the same volume of mortgage approvals as was the case through this period last year. In the three months to May, the volume of approvals we have advanced to customers is precisely the same. What is instructive is that the level of drawdowns from those approvals is 12% or 15% less. That indicates it is not so much the absence of credit, it is their confidence to make a commitment and make a purchase.

We have advanced 15% more credit to our personal customers than we did during the same period last year and we have advanced the same level of credit to new and start-up businesses. In terms of more substantial commercial lending, the demand for new loans is much reduced and the emphasis is more on supporting customers in managing through their existing borrowings. However, we are enthusiastically prepared to consider any new proposals. Our disposition is to support anything that can be shown to have good prospects of success. We are open for business and remain so. I wish to make that message clear and those figures are proof of that.

On the issue of interest rates and margins, we are working hard to protect customers from what has happened in the marketplace. The increase in the cost of funds has come about since August last year. We have absorbed a significant part of that increase and we have delayed any pass-through to customers for as long as possible. That is a fact that has been acknowledged. Far from any suggestion of growing profits, growing margins or behaving irresponsibly, bank margins have in fact reduced. I can illustrate that with one summary statistic.

In the business for which I am responsible, this time last year its gross margin on all loans across all sectors for the Republic of Ireland was 1.5% and today it is 1.25%. That statistic is a definitive answer to those who would suggest we are taking advantage of customers in the current climate. I remind the committee that this is gross margin against which must be levied the cost of bad debts and capital, all of which are on the increase.

In regard to lending standards in AIB, we have behaved very responsibly in recent years and we have maintained a very prudent credit stance. I will hold up one statistic to demonstrate that fact. AIB's published bad debt charge at the end of last year was one tenth of 1%. I have all the figures to hand but I will not bore the committee with the details, save to say that if it wants to compare that to any one of the UK clearers, it will find that it is a multiple of five or ten. If the committee chooses to compare it to any selection of European banks, it will find that it is also a fraction of it. That speaks for itself.

Specifically, with respect to mortgages, we have been operating in a very prudent way. We were not advocates of 100% mortgages and we did not promote them. As a result of that stance, unsurprisingly, mortgage arrears in AIB are very low. The proportion of arrears in AIB is about one third of 1%. If the committee wants to draw any comparisons, a good comparator would be Halifax Bank of Scotland, the principal mortgage provider in the UK; its figure is five times that number. The number of our customers who are in arrears, and those who additionally are in negative equity, is negligible and would be counted in tens rather than anything else. Those numbers show AIB as a measured and responsible lender. We endeavour to get it right for customers in the long run and I think we succeed in doing so better than most of our peers internationally. That belies any suggestion that we have ever lent recklessly or irresponsibly to our customers.

We are, have been and continue to be fully open for business. The figures I have shared with the committee in terms of personal lending mortgages and SME financing show that clearly. We have absorbed a significant part of the increased cost of funds that has come about since last August. I have talked about the margins and I have plenty more if the committee wishes to speak of them for evidence in that regard.

We are, and always have been, a responsible lender, as our track record demonstrates. We are operating in a difficult financial market and we have to maintain the confidence of a variety of stakeholders. I am confident about getting the balance right. I reassure the committee that we are determined to manage our business in the best interests of our customers and of the continuing development of the economy.

I invite Mr. McAteer to make his presentation and to avoid repetition.

Mr. Willie McAteer

I will be brief and will try to avoid repetition as requested. I am an executive director of Anglo Irish Bank for the past 16 years. We are not a universal bank but a focused business bank operating in Ireland for the past 35 years in our current guise. We expanded into the UK 22 years ago and into the US 11 years ago. Our predominant focus is actually in Ireland. We employ 1,800 people, 1,200 of whom are employed in Ireland.

During the past five years, we have lent €80 billion to business and of that amount, €60 billion was lent to businesses in Ireland. In the past six months, which is probably more relevant, our total amount of lending was €12 billion. In excess of €8 billion of that €12 billion was lent to businesses in Ireland. One cannot lend money unless one is funded. What we have done for many years is put down various channels of funding. Today, we take in funding from 16 countries around the world in customer deposits. Clearly, the whole perception of Ireland and the negative sentiment towards it are obviously of concern to us. However, this sentiment is not borne out by fundamentals. We are travelling, as are many of the people here, to try to make sure that the perception of Ireland internationally is true and not a false, sentiment driven one.

In regard to the debt capital markets, the term debt capital markets have effectively been closed since last August. That is a source of funding that clearly curtails lending. Nonetheless, we have been working hard for many years to ensure we have well diversified and various sources of funding. That has paid off well, particularly in the past nine months, even in the past six months when we lent €12 billion, €8 billion of which was in Ireland. We are committed very much to the Irish market and to the business sector in Ireland.

Mr. David Guinane

I am conscious of the Chairman's comments and will attempt to be brief. I am chief executive of Permanent TSB. Perhaps I can take a minute to put Permanent TSB in context in the banking industry. We were formed out of what was a merger between Irish Permanent and the Trustee Savings Bank seven years ago. The real motivation for that was to get to a scale that would allow us to compete in a very competitive market that was already full of strong local and international players. We believe we have done that successfully. We are the largest provider of mortgage finance in Ireland and have 193,000 mortgage customers. We are very dependent on the economy which is best seen by the fact that over 80% of our annual earnings come from Ireland. In the wider Irish Life and Permanent Group we have in excess of 5,000 staff. We are very conscious of our responsibilities within the economy.

Of the 193,000 mortgages to which I referred, 88% are residential mortgages. We are not players in the development or investment finance part of the business. We have prided ourselves for many years on our innovation and customer services, which is best reflected by the fact that in two of the past three years we have been voted the best mortgage provider as per MoneyMate. We are very conscious of our responsibility to a customer when lending a mortgage. Everyone would agree that, for most people, it is the largest financial transaction they will enter into in their lives. We are very conscious of that.

We pride ourselves on the fact that we have been and continue to be very prudent and responsible. That again is best reflected by the fact that our mortgage arrears statistics which were market available at the end of last year were the lowest we have ever had. I am delighted to say that trend has continued to the half year. It is important to point out that Permanent TSB would not lend in a situation that would put customers under undue pressure in any of their financial dealings.

Moving to the market, our belief is that demand began to slow in early 2007, and this has been well documented. The first movement was that developers held back on new developments, prices started to fall and customers lost confidence in the overall economy. The well documented credit crunch was another factor. Like other industries where there are higher ingredients, namely, pricing, that has been passed on in increased costs.

We see continuing prudence in the new market and not a return at any time in the near future to the approval of 100% mortgages which were granted for a brief period. As mentioned, we believe deposit holders are now getting a far better return on their savings. It is one positive effect of the current situation.

While we are in a closed period now, we are optimistic about the medium to short term. We are happy with the business volumes we have been experiencing. We expect the credit squeeze to pass. We believe employment creation will significantly help market stability and this in turn will lead to improved affordability, especially for first-time borrowers.

I thank the members for this opportunity to address them. I reiterate that we rely greatly on the economy and we look forward to working with all stakeholders to ensure we can have a bright future.

I thank the gentlemen for their presentations. I am sure my colleagues have many questions to put to them but prior to their doing so I would like to ask the delegates one or two questions. Could one of the delegates give the committee a profile of the indebtedness of the average Irish consumer? There has been much commentary in the newspapers on the reduction in lending and difficulties in getting mortgages approved, to which Mr. Forde referred. What is the total value of 100% mortgages as a percentage of the overall mortgage book? Are any 100% mortgages being approved now? Furthermore, what impact has Basel II had on the banks' lending policies?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I will respond to the question of the profile of personal indebtedness. Obviously the economy has grown very quickly during the past decade or two and there is catch-up in terms of home ownership and home formation. We would be among the top of four or five countries in terms of mortgage debt. However, we would not be ranked first; a number of other countries would be ahead of us. The characteristics of debt in this country is that about 87% of it is secured on property. The vast majority of debt is property related and that is very directly linked to home ownership, not second or additional properties. We carried out a survey on that recently and it showed that the percentage of people holding additional properties was quite small in the overall order of things.

Another way of considering this issue is in terms of the value of the housing stock in the country. I refer the Chairman to a chart I showed earlier which shows that people's net wholesale assets are very strong. One needs to take into account the savings ratio. While people have borrowed quite strongly, they also have saved quite strongly. Our savings ratio is very strong. The total value of residential property, even in these discounted times, is of the order of €500 billion. The amount of secured mortgage debt against that is approximately €145 billion, which is only a fraction of the value of the housing stock.

Basel II is a regulatory development. The European Commission's name for it was the capital requirements directive. Effectively, it has required banks, not only in Ireland but across the globe, to set aside more capital than they would have heretofore for certain types of lending. One type of lending for which banks are required to set aside more capital is in the area of loan to value. We talk about this in terms of 75%, 80%, 90% or whatever and the higher the loan to value, the more capital that must be set aside. This is a disincentive to lending higher loans to values. In terms of development land, the weighting is 150%, which is very high.

Was there a Basel I?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes.

Did all the banks subscribe to it?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes, they all would have been part of it.

I also asked about the value of 100% mortgages.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The value of 100% mortgages as a percentage of the total value of the overall mortgage book is approximately 4%. If we take the value of the total mortgage book as being approximately €145 billion, the value of 100% mortgages is 4% of that. Someone else brighter than me can do that sum. It is not a substantial sum of money. Such mortgages were given during a brief development in the Irish market over a short period.

Are they causing any problems?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We in the Bank of Ireland provide and have provided 100% mortgages. We have always said we do so. We do not provide any of our products on a nudge nudge, wink wink basis, so to speak. If we say we provide products, we provide them. We describe the criteria under which we provide them. We do not have any arrears on our 100% mortgages.

I would like to share my time with Deputy O'Donnell who initially offered and he will speak first.

That is agreed.

I thank Deputy Bruton for sharing his time. I welcome the delegates from the banks. I am a little disappointed that the chief executive officers of the groups are not present. They were requested to attend and it is to be hoped we will see them at a future meeting. In saying that, I am not being in any way disrespectful to the delegates present. We treat this matter with the utmost importance.

I listened to the contributions of the delegates. Business people across a range of sectors approached me about two weeks ago and said that they were experiencing difficulties both in obtaining credit and with the money supply. Mr. Farrell made the point that banks oil the wheels of business and life generally in Ireland and that is done by way of the money supply. The purpose of this meeting is to ensure banks will keep the money supply flowing through the economy. It is like blood supply for the human body. Certainly, the money supply has slowed down.

Mr. Farrell referred to April being the most recent month for the availability of interbank figures. However, May is the most recent month and the figures for that month show that for the two months up to end of May 2008, the level of finance provided by way of overdraft decreased by approximately €750,000 to €709 million, which is an 8% reduction on March. That does not seem to marry with the fact that we have a large increase in credit card debt.

The first question I want to put to the delegates is whether the reduction in the overdraft level in terms of provision of finance is as a result of the credit squeeze? The banks have a key role to play. Two phrases were mentioned: "recession" and "bank charges". We are in a recession. The ESRI has said that this year there will be negative growth rate of 0.4%. That was not mentioned by the banks. One would take it from the delegates' presentations that there are no problems but there are and major ones in terms of the availability of credit for business.

In regard to the criteria for lending, it was stated that in the case of commercial lending, the Euribor is the base rate from which the banks work. I understand that the three-month interbank rate is 4.95% today. A year ago I am aware, anecdotally, that banks were offering loans to commercial enterprises at 1% to 1.5% above that interbank rate. Now they are offering them at 3% above that rate. Why has there been a change in the criteria for lending? The customer is paying for this. Mr. Forde said the banks were taking the hit, but they are clearly charging a higher margin. Why? Very few new mortgages are being approved. In our role as public representatives, we find young people from across a range of sectors who cannot get approval for mortgages, while they may have been approved a year ago. I would like to know what change in criteria has occurred.

As regards bank charges, Mr. Forde referred to competition. I phoned the respective banks and had difficulties in finding the level of surcharge for overdrafts. They range more or less from 11% to 12%. AIB raised its surcharge rate by 33% three weeks ago. How can such charges be justified? What appears to be happening is that the banks are blackmailing customers. They are saying to customers: "We supply the capital money, which is scarce, so we are going to hike up the rates." The banks are effectively blackmailing customers into paying these prohibitive rates. Someone with an overdraft at the moment is paying a surcharge of about 11%, a loan rate of just under 11%, and €3.30 or €5.50 — the banks vary on that — for unpaid cheques that are cleared. Some of these cheques may not be cleared, however.

The biggest problem is that businesses cannot operate. They cannot pay bills because the overdraft facility is not available. The banks should look at this on a medium-term basis, even though the housing market is being looked at in the short term. I know from my own work as an accountant that in the early 1990s small businesses were finding it impossible to get bank loans. Suddenly, the property boom occurred and the housing market took off. The attachment that banks put to property by way of security for a business loan became more important than the business proposal itself. Property has now fallen in price and banks appear to be compensating for the fall in security by raising charges to customers. I want the banks to justify how they are charging such prohibitive rates. Charges in the order of 20% apply to credit cards.

I wish to discuss something that we can work on together. The capital requirements directive, Basel II, has already been mentioned. The Central Bank has a key role to play in this area. How would the banks view the Central Bank changing weightings in terms of risk for loans to relax the capital requirements? Would that enable the banks to lend more money to businesses? That should be examined in order to work proactively.

In terms of overdrafts, banks need to be flexible in their relationship with their existing customers. They also need to be positive in terms of new lending. We are in a recession and if the money supply is not allowed to flow by the banks, which are restricting it, the facts speak for themselves. There has been a reduction in overdrafts of some €709 million, which is the key. I suspect the reason is that the banks have a lack of security in overdrafts, whereas they might have it on loans.

Those are the questions I want the banks to answer. I want a commitment from the banks that they will be flexible with existing customers, support Irish business and support hard-pressed mortgage holders. They should work with us to ensure that this recession is short term.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I wish to make a few comments and my colleagues will pick up on other aspects.

We look forward to Mr. Farrell's comments.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Chairman mentioned the arrangements for who would be here today. I am a bit disappointed in that, to be frank, because I made it clear through my dialogue with the committee who would be coming in. I did not get any sense that there was dissatisfaction with the representation. These people are all chief executives of banks.

No one is questioning that.

Mr. Pat Farrell

No, but they are the chief executives.

The question really is that we are public representatives and the situation on the ground is very serious. We have a 100% turnout today. The gentlemen in front of me are excellent at their jobs but ultimately they report to the group chief executives of the relevant banks, who are the bosses. We want a policy statement from the banks today.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes, but I want to make the point that they would be very well placed to deal with the matter because they are the people who run these businesses in the Republic. They are the best people to have here. It is no disrespect to the committee. I am sure members of the committee will also be conscious of the fact that it is a holiday period. In addition, the matter was arranged at short notice, which we were happy to do. There should be some understanding of those points.

As regards the CRD, at the end of the day that is a policy matter for the regulator. We are not disagreeing with what the regulator has done. The regulator is the prudential supervisor and has to take its view of the world. To a large degree that is shaped by what has been handed down at EU level in terms of the capital requirements directive.

May I make a few points quickly? First, the Central Bank and various other institutions have said that the banking system in Ireland is robust. Do the witnesses believe it is robust? I assume they do because they all referred to it. Second, I am seeking an avenue through which to work with the banks so that capital can be freed up to be loaned to hard-pressed business people and mortgage holders. I am wondering what is the view of the respective chief executives on that.

Mr. Donal Forde

I will take that question. I respect the fact that that comment was offered as something that could be helpful and it is, on the face of it. The difficulty, however, is as follows. Part of our dilemma as banks is that we are trying to maintain the competence of the international system because we are relying on that system for funds and money. Part of the reassurance they take about the standing of Irish banks is that we do have a high quality regulatory regime. It forces us to apply the dimensions of Basel II and gives transparency to our business. They can then evaluate our business and can compare it with the business of other banks across the world, and find comfort that we are what we say we are — robust and stable.

If we were to do as the Deputy suggests, while on the face of it it would release capacity, the danger is that it diminishes the standing of Irish banks. Essentially, it would hold us up as exceptional in the international arena and as banks who are observing lesser standards than anybody else. That will not give confidence to our bond holders, the people whom we rely on for money. That would be the difficulty with it.

To put it another way, does Mr. Forde think it would have been——

With respect, on a point of order, the Deputy has asked a number of questions. He continues to come in and ask further questions. Other people will also have questions to pose. Some control should be exercised on that particular Deputy.

I have one final question and will finish then.Does Mr. Forde think it would have been helpful during the property boom if the Governor of the Central Bank had effectively tightened the capital requirements? Would that have been helpful in terms of making it more sustainable in that situation?

Mr. Donal Forde

That is what has happened through the introduction of Basel II; those capital requirements have been progressively tightened. All the banks would have known that was coming. We would have known that we had to answer to our international stakeholders.

That was after the property boom.

Mr. Donal Forde

I am simply making the point that we all knew that was coming. Basel II had been well signalled years ahead. We all knew that was the standard that would apply. We knew that we were going to have to answer for our property and other exposures in that light. We have been managing our business in the shadow of the imposition of Basel II for the last three or four years.

Do the gentlemen have any other comments?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Obviously, as a system, we would always like to work with the regulatory authorities. I reiterate that we would be concerned about any issues which might potentially, pursuant to banks or public representatives, be seen by international investors to interfere with the independence of the Financial Regulator and the transparency of the capital regimes. We do have certain features in Ireland which concern a problem with liquidity. Primarily, the issues we face are more down to liquidity than capital. With the federation, we would welcome working with the appropriate authorities to discuss mechanisms by which we might get some liquidity into the system, rather than capital. As we sit here today, we do not believe we have capital problems. We have liquidity issues.

How do the banks justify surcharges of 12%, and credit card charges?

Mr. Donal Forde

I would like to answer that question because Deputy O'Donnell mentioned AIB specifically. If he bears with me for a minute, there are a few important points to make about this.

Surcharge applies where people have broken the terms of their agreement with the bank. I just want to make that point to begin with. Let me tell the committee about the experience in AIB. Some 90% of the people who incur surcharges in AIB are strong credit grade customers. One in ten could be described as somebody who is in difficulty. Such customers simply are not managing their accounts with the same discipline as the rest of us — that is the issue. When that happens, there are two consequences for the bank. We then have an unscheduled borrowing requirement and, from all that has been said, everybody will appreciate the import of that in the current climate. As a result we have to put up multiples of the capital to support that facility. In the case of a mortgage, that could be 20 times the amount. In the case of a business loan, it could be five times the amount. If we do that, we are diminishing our capacity to provide that capital or funding to other more compliant customers. It makes no sense for us to facilitate customers who simply are not managing their accounts with the discipline that we would expect or in terms of the cost to the bank and the cost of our capacity to meet the requirements of other borrowers. That is the rationale for us raising our surcharge.

Mr. Donal Forde

I stand over it. It makes no sense, as I stated, to indulge customers who have no reason to have their accounts out of order. One must remember that all that is required of someone to avoid surcharge is simply to engage with the bank and re-determine the terms of their contact with us.

The banks may not extend an increased overdraft.

Mr. Donal Forde

We have no reason not to do so. We are not looking for people to bear surcharge. We are looking for it to act essentially as a charge that discourages people from running their accounts in a way that is costly to us and to our franchise. I stand over it. It is rational in the current climate.

I appreciate that many people have waited a while to meet the banks. As was stated, every day we meet people, whether first-time buyers or small or big business owners, who are really worried. There is this phenomenon of the 11 a.m. e-mail on a Friday morning, particularly in the construction and related businesses, where people are being told that their services are probably not required or they are being put on protective notice. It is in that context that we are meeting today. The delegation is very welcome.

I want to raise a point, made by both Mr. Farrell and Mr. McAteer, which was made previously by Mr. Farrell when he was before the committee approximately six months ago. It is the question of negative sentiment in the broader financial markets towards Ireland, and particularly towards the valuation of the banks' shares. There is almost a fear that if we talk about the difficulties, we are in a sense making them worse.

I accept what has been said about capitalisation, prudential lending and some of the controls that have been put in place. That may be true of the banks represented here, but it is not true of the entire Irish banking sector. To what extent do the banks have themselves to blame for their current position where, whether they like it or not, there is extreme suspicion of the quality of some of their balance sheets and of some of their lending? Take for example lending to allow people to buy land at grotesquely inflated prices where, essentially, the banks have either driven or got sucked into the business of inflating the construction and the housing bubble? If we are to return to more normal conditions, money must go, not just to speculators in land but to real businesses in the economy and to real first-time buyers who are buying houses in which to live rather than simply to become buy-to-let landlords.

The second factor contributing to the situation and the poor sentiment towards quite a number of bankers is the gross remuneration of many of those in the senior echelons of banking, mostly in terms of share options but also in salaries. With banking being particularly global, the banks might say that such salaries and rewards are very much geared to global levels. Now that matters are a bit more difficult in this country, will banks show some sense of responsibility in the kind of money and rewards — or compensation, to use their own phrase — they take out of the banking system? For many ordinary people and businesses, it is excessive.

I asked this question previously of Mr. Farrell and of the regulator. On the key perceived difficulties in some banks' balance sheets, what is the position on loans advanced for land speculation in the property market? Now that the property market has come down, what is likely to be the value on those loans and have the banks in their accounts already discounted the falls in the property market?

I note that Bank of Ireland and AIB stated they really were never in the 100% mortgage game, and I accept that. What is now the acceptable level of mortgage advance for first-time buyers? Is it 92%? There are many middle-class parents, probably many of those in this room, advancing their kids money. What is the present set-up? One hears that some banks are returning to a level below 90%. For first-time buyers getting into the property market, particularly as there is perhaps more value in the market now with prices falling, what will be the lending practices of the banks?

For those who are in a buy-to-let situation, I am not suggesting that anybody at this table is involved in this. In my constituency, for example, where people with one or two children went to buy a house on getting married, and one was a painter and decorator, a plumber or somebody in the construction industry working off certificates and employing a couple of people, they were encouraged by many banks to not just buy one house but to buy a second property on a buy-to-let basis. I continually get calls from some of those people, who now find that the buy-to-let property somewhere on the fringes of one of our towns or cities, has lost capital value. They really cannot afford to finance it because construction industry work is really drying up and, as the delegation stated, liquidity and cashflow is the name of the game. What have the banks to say to such people? Some such people have not bought-to-let at 100% on the second property, but some are in difficulty. Does the delegation have a response in their regard?

There is the issue of those with negative equity. I wish to ask Mr. Farrell about mortgage finance. The slide relating to this matter tells its own story. However, I would like Mr. Farrell to elaborate on the position as it stands. The slide to which I refer indicates that, in the first quarters of 2005 and 2008, the number of first-time buyers or purchasers halved. That is the extent of what happened in respect of first-time buyers. Therefore, not everything is rosy in the garden.

To whom do the top-up and remortgage figures relate? Do they refer to parents who remortgage to assist their children or to smaller interests in the construction industry? In a way, our concerns lie with such smaller interests. Those in this category take out top-up mortgages to shore up their position with the banks vis-à-vis lending.

When the Financial Regulator was first established, certain financial institutions were engaged in predatory practices in respect of penalty clauses. Our guests will be familiar with the institutions to which I refer. If a person defaulted on a loan or failed to meet any of the conditions relating to it, the penalty clauses in place at the time were extraordinarily severe. One building society in particular was notorious in this regard. I am not referring to Smart Mortgages or the other subprime lenders which, thankfully, only obtained a minor foothold in the Irish market. However, the financial institutions which engaged in the practices I have outlined claimed major fees from people in circumstances where the provision of repayment holidays or whatever would have allowed individuals to renegotiate their loans.

We are seeking a response of this nature from our guests. We appreciate that the institutions they represent are in business to make money. I hope, however, they are not interested in making the substantial sums that have been the norm in recent years. The financial institutions can make money but they can also help business people and those trying to purchase houses.

I accept the point that was made about many of the fundamentals being in very good shape. However, we must ask how much of the negative sentiment towards Ireland was brought about by the financial institutions themselves.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I will deal with the issues relating to mortgages and matters relating to first-time buyers. Deputy Burton inquired about criteria. The principal criterion that Bank of Ireland and, I believe, its competitors employ relates to people's capacity to repay. It is difficult, therefore, to indicate what would be the absolute loan to value, LTV, we would advance to a customer. The LTV we would advance would relate to the customer's capacity to repay.

Does Bank of Ireland currently offer mortgages of 90% or 92%? First-time buyers and their parents want to know the amount the bank is willing to advance to them.

Mr. Richie Boucher

The typical first-time buyer mortgage is between 85% and 92%. Interest rates in particular impact on a first-time buyer's ability to repay. Interest rates have moved. Most of the financial institutions stress test. In other words, we take the income capacity of the borrower and we stress test in respect of a fall in respect of it. We also stress test with regard to rises in interest rates. When we stress test, increases in interest rates have a particular impact on the capacity to repay. When the ECB rates or interests rates in general rise and as we examine the position of new borrowers, the sums just do not add up in respect of their capacity to repay. People are choked off as a result.

Typically, first-time buyers are starting off in their careers or in their married lives together so their incomes tend to be lower. That is a factor. We have to be responsible and ensure they have the capacity to repay. Increases in interest rates impact on the latter. As the prospects for overtime or bonus payments reduce, this is taken into account. These form part of the stress testing we carry out with our customers. It is not just a function of LTV rates; it is primarily related to our assessment of the capacity to repay, which is based on certain models that we employ. Those models are experiential and are developed over time. As interest rates change, so too do our models. I hope I have clarified the position with regard to the way in which we assess people's suitability in respect of mortgages. It does not just primarily relate to the value of the property.

On negative equity, property prices fluctuate — they rise and fall. In our experience, the actual value of a property has a limited impact on the customers ability to repay.

Let us consider the position of someone who finds himself or herself in a position of negative equity. According to the statistics provided, 110,000 people obtained mortgages in recent years. I accept that the fall in value of modest properties would be nothing like that which obtains in respect of, for example, the French Embassy building or homes on Ailesbury Road, which are trophy properties. People who bought modest new homes in the past 15 months are discovering that the values relating to their properties are not holding.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Average customers who take out mortgages do not do so to speculate. Most of our customers purchase properties in areas in which they can afford to live, where they want to live and where they have determined they want their children to attend school. When we question customers who take out first-time mortgages regarding how long they intend to live in the properties they wish to purchase, on average they state they will do so for seven years. It is not the fluctuations in value or our assessment of a customer at any point in time as we are managing our relationship with him or her that impact on his or her ability to repay. It is primarily his or her employment prospects and interest rates that have an impact. It is not the underlying value of the property that comes into play.

The Deputy inquired about those who remortgage. In our experience at Bank of Ireland, a significant amount of remortgaging is often done in respect of the building of kitchen, bedroom or similar extensions. We have limited experience of customers who take equity out of a property for lifestyle maintenance or other reasons because that impacts on our repayment capacity assessments.

I wish to inquire about bank executives' salaries. Perhaps it is appropriate that I pose this question to the representative from the Bank of Ireland because that financial institution is trying to persuade a number of its staff that a previous agreement relating to the awards should be significantly diminished. Is Mr. Boucher of the opinion that the salaries of senior bank executives are excessive and that because times are becoming difficult, the banks might — as we have been encouraging members of the Government to do — moderate those salaries?

Mr. Richie Boucher

First, we have not changed the agreement. The interpretation of that agreement is what is being discussed and negotiated with our employees. Executive salaries are considered across the board on a national and international basis. A significant number of such salaries are based on variable pay, namely, bonuses. The latter are based on the performance of the business and on share options, which are dependent on the ultimate value of that business. These fluctuate significantly depending on the performance of the business.

What is the position regarding the construction sector and loans for land purchases?

Mr. Willie McAteer

In my experience, the banks have been prudent in this regard. The banks want to get their money back at the end of the day. They, therefore, continually consider the ultimate cash flows that might be generated from any particular transaction. Even the Financial Regulator has moderated banks' appetites by imposing, as Mr. Farrell noted, 150% risk weighting in respect of speculative development relating to land. This means that an additional one third of capital must be put against a loan. I reject the suggestion that banks have been foolhardy in recklessly lending and driving up values. We are in competition right across the board and I cannot think of a bank that has been reckless. Perhaps in the UK between 2005 and early 2007, there was a degree of irrationality with Conduit, which was set up to give large loans to value and then bonds were issued out of those vehicles into the market in general.

Every loan we make is on our balance sheet and, therefore, we are lending our own money. Every loan goes through a central credit committee and is properly underwritten. With regard to questions about asset quality, the last set of audit results we had were for the first six months to 31 March 2008 and the figures speak for themselves in that regard.

I am puzzled by what Mr. McAteer said. Nobody can understand how people obtained money for sites in Ballsbridge based on the density requirements of the planning authority. All over my constituency it does not make commercial sense to have paid significant amounts for one and two acres of land, other than people depending on high rise development that was not included in the development plan. Adhering to the requirement of 150% risk rating on landmark developments is all dependent on what planning permissions will be granted by a local authority. There is no basic value to such properties and one can see what is happening around the place. People pay huge prices and then seek the maximum development. They are shot down and now there is chaos. I do not understand where the risk weighting is taken into account when money is being handed out. How can anybody justify paying €150 million or €200 million for a couple of acres before he or she even knows what can be built on it? It is astonishing.

I agree with many comments by the delegation but I am afraid there are many questions to be answered on this issue. It is solely tied to density and planning permissions. Many people have egg on their faces. A man paid €22 million for a two-acre site with one house on it near where I live. He was depending solely on knocking a perfectly habitable house and seeking a high rise development in an area that is totally unsuitable to it. Thankfully, he was refused planning permission. Who is funding him to the tune of €22 million? There is no value to land other than what one can build on it.

Mr. Donal Forde

I cannot comment on specifics but it is not so much about how much a developer or an individual pays for something. We are a country of free choice. The issue for us is what they borrowed from us and where we are going to get our repayment. There are instances where people have paid what might be regarded as foolhardy sums for assets but, from our perspective, the funding of the asset is coming from somewhere entirely different. We do that for a customer in those circumstances and we do not make a commentary on the wisdom of what he is doing. We examine the debt he is raising with us and where we will get paid and it is not at odds with the scenario described by the Deputy. Somebody may well have a debt attaching to that site that is of a much more modest proportion and that may be repaid from a totally different asset. Things are not often what they seem. The issue is what the debt is and where we will be repaid from, not the amount paid.

The delegation raised the issue of negative sentiment towards Irish banks. Their shares are being badly hit on a continual basis. The greatest fear people who examine the balance sheets of banks have is the excessive carnival of speculation involved in the construction boom. Do the representatives have any responsibility for adding to the bubble?

Mr. Donal Forde

At the end of the day, we are business people and I concur with my colleague's comment that it is not in our interest to lend money we do not believe can be repaid to us. We go through elaborate processes and we are held to account for them through a variety of different regulations and so on to make sure we assess cases properly. I am trying to emphasis to Deputy Barrett that the issue is sometimes that there is a perception about what has happened that may not be a reality of the way a deal is structured. I accept our job is to make sure people abroad understand we have conducted our business responsibly and that we can demonstrate this to them. AIB will be more resilient than some would like to think through the property cycle. Bad debts will increase because they have been at historic lows for the past number of years. I outlined AIB's bad debt statistics and they speak for themselves. I have every confidence that our processes will prove to be robust but every deal people may, on the face of it, regard as irrational may not be constructed or funded in anything like the way they think.

I accept the witnesses are business people but they are also very much an integral part of a free, democratic society. For us to get out of the mess we are in, we need a strong banking system in which there is full confidence and availability of finance. If mistakes were made, we would be better off saying that and correcting them in order that they do not recur. However, I cannot envisage how we can get out of this mess unless faith is restored in our banking system and people are confident. That is not the case when one considers the share prices of our banks. I am fearful that we will return to the old mess.

There are two ways to solve a problem in any business. If its expenditure does not match its income, it reduces its expenditure to match its income or increases its income to match its expenditure. I favour the latter because that creates activity. Has our banking system learned lessons? Will it be able to fund its way out of this mess? If not, we should find ways of making that possible. I do not know how unless everybody recognises there is a problem. A medical doctor is beside me. If I do not recognise I have a medical problem, I will never solve it. A great deal of beating around the bush is taking place on many of these issues. People took out 100% mortgages borrowed against their own personal assets to invest in apartments and banks fuelled that while driving up prices. However, they cannot be let now. This is a useful exercise and I would like us to be honest and open.

Mr. David Guinane

The Deputy referred to what was driving 100% mortgages. A limited segment of the population was lent such mortgages and we only lent for house purchases and, therefore, people buying apartments and buy-to-lets were not given these mortgages. It was purely for houses purchases to a segment of the population that we believed was appropriate at the time.

Were they not also available to buy-to-let investors? Many people in my constituency bought to let.

I welcome the delegation and the important discussion we are having.

Will Mr. Farrell outline whether there is any liquidity problem in the Irish banking system? Are there any Northern Rocks? It would be important to have reassurance on this point so that consumers and the business community would be reassured that the banking system is in a strong position and does not have any liquidity problems.

The issue of lending criteria has been discussed and it was raised by Deputy Burton a few moments ago. Some of the respondents have stated that there has been no change in lending criteria or policy. I have anecdotal evidence about constituents who last year were given approval for €350,000, returned to the bank this year in no worse-off a position from an employment or financial point of view and they are now being approved for no more than €300,000. There seems to be a tightening-up of the availability of credit in the banks' application of their lending criteria. I note the statement that 85% to 92% mortgages would be the average. I understand it is linked to capacity to repay and to stress testing. Will the delegation confirm there is no policy to cap the percentage in terms of loan to value that is being sanctioned for mortgage approvals?

On the issue of competition within the banking system, is Mr. Farrell satisfied there is strong competition between banks? Will he give the committee some examples of the competitive instruments? I know different banks focus on different markets but in what areas are they competing, such as fees, interest rates and surcharges? Where are the tangible differences between banks as a means of demonstrating the existence of clear and strong competition?

Deputy Burton raised the issue of negative equity and this is an important issue with which we must deal. It has been confirmed today that about 4% of the mortgage book of up to €150 billion is accounted for by 100% mortgages. Approximately €6 billion of mortgages approved in recent years were of the 100% variety. If house prices have reduced by 15% to 20%, then with regard to 100% mortgages alone, there are mortgage holders with collective negative equity of a probable €1.5 billion. If one adds in those people with 90% and 95% mortgages, then the figure will be much higher and it is certainly at least €1.5 billion. While this is not an issue for the banks because their only commercial concern is that the loan will be repaid, it is an issue for consumers who now have an asset that is, unfortunately, worth significantly less than what they paid for it. The banks should acknowledge that it was, if not commercially irresponsible because the banks have confirmed the loans are being repaid, socially irresponsible to have given people 100% loans when they are now in negative equity of between 10% and 20%.

With regard to the interbank rate which has been confirmed as the main determinant of the interest rates charged in the retail banking sector, what are the forecasts of where that rate is going? We are expecting a further European Central Bank increase. What are the forecasts for the months ahead? Does the delegation foresee any improvement in the availability of credit in the international banking system and the wholesale markets generally?

On the issue of bank profits, what were the level of profits generated in Ireland in 2006 to 2007 and what is the forecast for 2008? What will be the impact on pension funds of the depression in the share prices in the banking system and the general downturn in the economy? The level of bad debts continues to be low and the level of defaults on loan repayments is at low levels compared with recent years. Will the delegation confirm that in recent months there has not been an appreciable increase in arrears of loan repayments? This would be an important confirmation.

Mr. Richie Boucher

The most fundamental question for all of us, both here in this room and outside, is the liquidity of the Irish banking system. Unequivocally we do not believe there is a Northern Rock lurking in Ireland. One can never be certain about anything in life but as a bank, we provide significant money in the interbank to Irish banks. We assess them and Irish banks take liquidity in the international markets. The liquidity regime which the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator operate is tougher and a more extensive and intensive regime than that operated in the United Kingdom where we also have businesses. Therefore, we do not believe there is a Northern Rock lurking in Ireland.

The second question asked by Deputy McGrath was how long the interbank funding will stay. Unfortunately, I would have to admit that if I was here in September or October of last year, I would have said it would be until January, February or March, as the banks' published accounts came out and as people began to trust each other in the interbank market. This has lasted much longer than any of us anticipated. We believe it will continue at least during the course of the current year. However, we do not believe the rates will move materially above where they are today. This is driven by one factor which is the activities of the central banks in the marketplace. Unfortunately, central banks, who would usually try to deal with an economic slowdown by bringing interest rates down, have been hit in this situation by commodity prices going up and they are trying to control inflation. This is an unusual set of circumstances. However, we think the interbank rates are roughly where they are but it would be difficult for us to foresee them falling rapidly in a short period and that is the factor we are dealing with in the marketplace at the moment.

On the question about the banks' profits, Bank of Ireland profits are a matter of record and we do not anticipate we will make the same amount of money this year as we did last year. Our customers are not buying investment products; they are keeping their cash. There is not as much activity in the market and our bad debts will go up. Those are the factors that will impact on our profits.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I will address the question about competition. I can only repeat what I said earlier to the Deputy. I showed the number of new entrants into the market over the past decade. The Irish Banking Federation is here representing all the banks operating in the market. We are delighted we represent a diversity of banks, both foreign-owned and domestic. They all provide a valuable service in the market and strong competition for each other which has been intensified in recent years. The IBF introduced a switching code for current accounts and this has been quite successful to the point where it is now being propagated across Europe by the Internal Market and Services Commissioner as a model for other European countries.

We have gone from a situation where we had five or six providers of finance and business banking a decade ago to the current position of ten, approximately a doubling of the number. We also have approximately a doubling in the number of providers on the personal finance side, with ten a decade ago and now 20. Most of this increase is due to foreign-owned or international banks which have come into this market. They have been attracted to this market by the growing economy and population and the increase in the number of economically active people with earning capacity. This market has attracted more activity from retail banks. This has been good for consumers because we have been independently validated as having some of the most competitive mortgage markets in Europe. We are now in a different situation because of the volatility in the markets and the pricing of the interbank rate but in more normal times we are adjudicated as having one of the most competitive mortgage market rates.

We have also heard that margins have been driven down as instanced by some of the representatives from the banks present. The competition exists. Within the past month a new provider of current accounts has entered the market. Almost all the banks provide accounts that are free of charges for customers who want to opt for that service. There is considerable competition in the market, which has evolved strongly in recent years.

Mr. Donal Forde

Deputy McGrath asked about lending criteria and asked to confirm no change in policy. I have confirmed already that we have not changed policy. Policy is set according to people's capacity to repay. The difficulty, however, is that each time interest rates rise it generates a lower net amount. Absent that dynamic, there is no change in policy.

I asked a question that was not answered. How can the bank justify adding 3% to the Euribor rate whereas it was adding 1% a year ago?

Mr. Donal Forde

In responding to Deputy McGrath, I was talking about mortgages. That was the context of the discussion. I recognise Deputy O'Donnell made that point. I have no doubt he is referring to some specific instance. If that has happened in AIB, it is a very exceptional circumstance and would only be done when there is extreme risk attaching to a proposal.

Is AIB still only adding 1% over the interbank rate?

Mr. Donal Forde

Earlier I spoke about the margin. I informed the committee that a year ago the margin for the business, for which I am responsible, was 1.5% and today it is 1.25%, which speaks for itself. Individual cases will depend on the specifics of the situation. The one the Deputy described would be extreme and I cannot imagine what the context might be.

Does the Irish Banking Federation have a general policy on penalties? Some years ago some well known institutions charged extraordinary levels of penalties. This is where it is at for many people. If they go above the limit or need to renegotiate, they can be hit with very severe penalties.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We do not because obviously that is a competitive issue between banks. We do not want to get ourselves into competition law issues. However, we have a code of practice on mortgage arrears which has been supplemented by the consumer protection code that was introduced in the past year. It sets out clear criteria for how to assess customers' suitability for products and also to work with them where they may encounter difficulties. We have operated that code successfully through good times and bad times. It can be said that in all cases we have operated in a fair and transparent manner. We have operated under the terms of that code. We always try to make an arrangement with customers to enable them in some way to service their borrowing or to make repayment of some kind. The absolutely last resort for any financial institution would be to go the route of repossession. That is validated and vindicated by the figures I shared with the committee. Those were the repossession figures in the market for the year just gone by, for the year before that and, indeed, the figures we have for the year to date.

Mr. Donal Forde

Deputy McGrath asked about the forecast for bank profits. Ours are a matter of record. As we are in a closed period I will not be too specific, save to say that we have given some guidance and that still holds. The Deputy also asked whether there had been an increase in arrears. Arrears are rising, but modestly so and not in a way that is incompatible with having reached the bottom of the cycle, and we are now in an upturn. It is not in a way that should change the perception that what we are now seeing is an adjustment and a correction.

Mr. Richie Boucher

The Deputy also asked about the impact of bank share prices on pensions. It goes back to what Deputy Burton said and I understand where she is coming from. Time will tell whether what we are saying about our bad debts will come true. We cannot prove today what our bad debt profile will be. We must say what we think it is. We need to look at rating agencies who have been through our books much more intensively than an external investigator can. However, time will tell.

Regarding the issue of sentiment, I would note that some very good and substantial Irish companies have a very limited exposure to the Irish economy and have no banking crisis issues related to them, for example CRH, with only 6% or 7% of its profits coming from Ireland. However, it is suffering from an Irish taint. All share prices, with some exceptions in mining and commodities, have reduced substantially in the past 12 months. There is a significant downturn and in some countries a recession. That has severely impacted on the value of investments, which is feeding through into pensions. That is a serious issue for us all. I agree with Deputy Barrett that we are talking about very serious issues. Ireland and the world at large are facing serious issues and we certainly are not shying away from that.

I thank our speakers. My father, who is a wise man in his 100th year, says a patient would not argue with his doctor about the price of his services when his breeches are down around his ankles. The point being made is that it is also difficult to argue with a bank when a customer owes it a considerable sum of money. Anecdotally we are hearing different stories from what the witnesses are saying. We are hearing that lending practices are changing, there are significant increases in facilitation fees, the mark-up on interest rates is much higher, and when loans are rolled over, as Deputy McGrath has said, there is a different approach. The representative of AIB continues to insist there is no change in its criteria. Perhaps the other banks might indicate whether there has been a change in theirs. These are businesses and, therefore, non-consumers. Consumers have the protection of the consumer director within the Financial Regulator. To ensure these practices are fair, does the Irish Banking Federation operate a code of practice and keep an eye on what is going on? It is no coincidence that every contributor around this table related at least anecdotally different stories to what we are hearing from the witnesses.

Apart from fair play for customers, we obviously expect sound practices from banks. The 2006 report of the Central Bank complained that we had excessive credit growth, concentration in property related business, a private sector funding gap, falling net interest margins and a persistent reduction in providing for bad debts. Those still seem to be the crux issues. It begs the question whether these warnings from the regulator were heeded. To judge from the figures of the extension of lending after that and the nature of the lending which has been highly concentrated in property related business, even after its warning, it would suggest they were not being heeded. Perhaps that is a question of regulatory failure. Banks compete and will do whatever they think. Will the witnesses comment on that issue?

Can the witnesses give the committee some reassurance about bad debt provision? Some newspapers have reported that bad debt provision is exceptionally low in Ireland by international standards and has been falling, as confirmed by the Central Bank's stability report. Is that robust? That is the concern. Are the practices being pursued? People have lost confidence in these rating agencies that used to rate all sorts of things as being triple A. Has there been a fresh review of the banks' bad debt provision practices to ensure they are robust in this new environment? The same rating agencies are now complaining about the capital adequacy ratios of Irish banks. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments on those issues of concern. I was pretty disturbed at the explanation given in answer to Deputy Barrett's question. The answer appeared to be that it does not matter what the project is provided it fits into the bank's model of finding money to service the debt. That is a problematic approach to the extent that if every bank were to do this during a bubble, it would soon no longer be anyone's interests to examine the soundness of the debt being undertaken.

Have we been a victim of model based lending? Some bank managers used to say they had become redundant because they used to apply good judgment which went out the window when model based lending was pushed into the branches. This approach is not based on judgment or an examination of whether, for example, a site could realise what is hoped. Has the drive to find a clean model been responsible for part of the current problem?

The other issue underlying our concerns is the position regarding the public interest at a time when banks appear to be under genuine pressure, wholesale money is dearer and volumes of business are lower. These factors must make business more difficult for the banks.

Mr. Boucher stated the system needed liquidity. Are vehicles available which would allow the banking system to adopt a more anti-cyclical policy with appropriate policies being introduced by the Government? The banks appear to be pulling in their horns at a time when there are unsold homes, pressures are emerging and people are losing their jobs and will have difficulty repaying loans. Is Mr. Boucher hinting at some sensible model for securing liquidity? I understood the European Central Bank was pushing liquidity into the system as rapidly as was required, albeit at a penalty.

Some people have expressed a concern that banks are switching some of their loan activities overseas because it is easier to pick up distressed properties in the United States or elsewhere than to behave in an anti-cyclical manner in the Irish market. This suggestion has been made. Perhaps the delegation will state this is not the case. Will the witnesses outline how we can better address the public interest by avoiding a credit crunch at a time when other areas are vulnerable?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I will try to answer some of Deputy Bruton's questions. On the bad debt provisions, Bank of Ireland and a number of other banks have had an issue with the IFRS accounting rules which were introduced approximately three years ago. In the past, banks were able to make a judgmental assumption that a certain proportion of loans over a certain size were likely to become impaired and put provisions against it. Under the IFRS accounting rules, banks are not allowed to do this. While some of these international accounting standards make a great deal of sense, others sometimes do not make sense. However, banks are governed by them.

Bank of Ireland, in a number of our results statements in recent years, stated the provision levels we hold or are reporting in our accounts are unsustainably low. We have signalled that our provisions will increase.

While it is a rather technical point, it is important to note that we are governed by international accounting standards. In particular, we have less flexibility than we may have had in the past in making judgmental decisions or provisions. The accounting standards, such as Basel II, are increasingly designed to make equity and debt instruments common throughout the world with a view to ensuring one will make the same judgments regardless of whether one is looking at a set of accounts in Tallahassee or Youghal. This is a restriction.

Bank of Ireland definitely acknowledges, as I am sure do the other banks, that in a declining economy in which there is stress, our bad debt provisions will increase. That is a factor. We believe we have enough capital to meet bad debts of a significantly greater magnitude than we believe them to be. This issue has been examined. In life and business, one has expectations and one has to ask what will happen if one is wrong. We are very often wrong but we have a strong belief that we have significant and sufficient capital to meet even worse scenarios than we envisage. If bad debts and the economy get worse, we believe we are sufficiently capitalised. The other Irish banks have stated they are also sufficiently capitalised to take even worse hits than we face. We have not been exposed to the absolute toxic products which have caused huge wipe-outs of the capital of international banks.

We do not believe we are model driven. In most banks, loans above a certain level — relatively low levels — are not done by models and judgmental credit committees meet. It is a factor that the local manager's discretions are often relatively low because we believe it is appropriate and necessary to have another pair of eyes looking at credit decisions to ensure another human is looking over one's shoulders.

I do not believe banks are in the business of saying they do not care what customers do with their money. If one were to say that, customers would do as they wish in different cases. It is important for us to understand and know a project. We are not in the equity risk business and we will ask what other repayment capacity or collateral a customer has if a project does not work. This has been an important factor and may have been what Mr. Forde was trying to say.

Deputy Bruton asked whether I have or was hinting at a solution. There is a significant liquidity issue. In the United States, two very substantial, formerly state-owned bodies, which are very closely aligned to the US Government, namely, the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, take mortgages and create collateral from them. In the German markets, one has the Pfandbriefe system and part of the business of many of the foreign owned banks in the IFSC is in Pfandbriefe, a business which receives significant help from the Financial Regulator and Department of Finance. A number of people have worked very hard on this and we have been bringing in Irish legislation to ensure it goes forward. While I do not have an instant solution, we believe we have had great engagement with the State authorities and banking system to get some framework. We would like to see if, in the coming months, we can work to see how we can make that work better. I wish I had an instant solution but, unfortunately, I do not.

On a point of clarification, did Mr. Boucher indicate he is working with people to produce fresh legislation?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, the legislation is in place. Irish legislation had to be amended to enable Pfandbriefe. It was partly designed to assist the activities taking place in the Irish Financial Services Centre, which are very important for employment in the economy. We need to examine how this can also be used for Irish banks.

On the ECB, all of us, especially those working in the mortgage business, have significant eligible collateral. The Bank of Ireland has more than €27 billion of eligible collateral. We believe this would protect us against a liquidity run. However, we also believe the use of eligible collateral and Central Bank systems such as this are more for short-term needs and do not offer a long-term solution.

To reinforce the remarks I made to Deputy Michael McGrath, the Irish banks as a whole and, in particular, those with mortgages have eligible collateral and can obtain funding from the Central Bank. However, we want to avoid such a scenario because we want to take the stabilisers off our bike and run our businesses in an appropriate fashion, taking in deposits from people who want to give us them and lending these deposits to those who want to borrow money.

I welcome the delegates from the Irish Banking Federation and the banks. The banks are always an easy target at the best of times and in the worst of times it is easy to give them a good kicking. I will resist that urge because we need to take a balanced perspective. It is interesting to hear the banks are being criticised for not mentioning the word "recession". I do not think that is necessary because there are plenty of other people lining up to do so and they will say it as often as they can.

By nature I am an optimist. Having travelled with the committee earlier this year to New York and Washington where we met many of the regulatory bodies and financial institutions I realise from meeting the stakeholders here and listening to the representatives of the banking sector today and at previous committee meetings that the fundamental problems facing the US banks are significantly different. I welcome that fact. It is important to get that message across, although it is quite difficult to do so in the prevailing climate. The priority must be to protect jobs in banks and small businesses.

The Irish Banking Federation's remit covers international banking. Many people employed in that sector live in my constituency of Dublin South-East. I am interested to hear the IBF's views on the outlook for the international banking sector. How many people are employed by the banks in Dublin? What has been the role of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator and what has been the interaction between those bodies and the banks to manage the current difficult and challenging situation? The point has been made previously that we read in the newspapers that banks have stopped lending. I know people who have been approved for mortgages or who are in the process of applying for them. What is the situation in that regard?

The common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB, has been hovering over us for years. What are the IBF's views on whether that will be a threat or an opportunity for the banking sector? What are the biggest challenges we face and are there opportunities at this time for banks in Ireland?

I will share my time with Senator Ross. I have three brief questions, the first one is to Mr. McAteer. Sir Kenneth Cork was the principal liquidator in the UK. He wrote an article some years ago in which he said he had discovered a link between companies that got into difficulty. The common factor was between companies that opened a new head office. Among those companies, it was a certainty that those that put a fountain in the foyer would go out of business. Mr. McAteer indicated he is going into a new head office. Does he know whether there will be a fountain in the foyer?

To the best of my knowledge there is no connection between Lloyds TSB from the UK and the banks that are present. It got into some trouble yesterday because in its search for customers it sent unsolicited debit cards to children as young as 11 years of age. I assume that is not considered as an option by the Irish banks.

My third question relates to banks putting money aside for an emergency and at what cost they can do so? Is there any question of having a rights issue? International banks, including British banks, have done so recently. That question has not cropped up today but most questions have already been asked.

My final question relates to non-performing debt as opposed to bad debt. I am not sure I understand the difference. It seems that if I owe €1,000 to the bank it is my problem but if I owe €1 million it is the bank's problem. I would like to think there is an explanation for that.

I welcome the delegates also. I am somewhat disturbed by the tone of today's discussion in that all the banks appear to be incredibly united and they all speak with the one voice. I would have expected that, as competitors, they would say different things, perhaps about each other, and about the competition between them. Instead, they all spoke at great length about their enormous social responsibility. If we had Michael O'Leary and Dermot Mannion here we would have a very different type of question and answer session.

Does Senator Ross have a question?

I have several. The appearance that all the banks are speaking with a concerted voice is unhealthy and tells us much about the banking system in Ireland.

All the banks appear to speak with a similar voice also about an important issue raised by Deputy Burton, namely, the pay for bank chief executives. The issue is important — not for sensational reasons — although I would like to know what they are all paid and perhaps they can tell us that. That is already a number of questions. It is important because Mr. Goggin of Bank of Ireland was paid a total of €4 million last year. The salary for that poor man has come down this year to approximately €2 million. I do not know how those payments are justified but I know that the financial regulator in the United Kingdom issued a fairly severe warning about the pay bankers give to themselves. That takes us into a different realm from the sort of sensational media area we have been covering. He said, and it has been echoed in a milder way by the Financial Regulator here, that the pay bankers are getting is now a serious issue for the banks themselves and that it is to be taken into account when they measure the risk to the bank. What will the banks do about that? One individual got €4 million.

I do not know what Mr. McAteer, as chief executive, got last year or the year before but it was in excess of €3 million in total remuneration. At a time when the banks claim great social responsibility, and given that the fees ought to be taken into account when the risk of the bank is at stake, those sums are unacceptable. Can the representatives indicate what senior management is getting paid and what they are going to do about it in the light of what the Financial Regulator said and whether they are going to reduce those payments? One spokesperson indicated that the payments are across the board, the pay is variable and is based on performance, options, and so on. The usual excuse is that one has to give a competitive rate. Can someone indicate whether any of the top management employees have been offered jobs elsewhere that makes them invaluable to the extent that one cannot afford to let them go? I do not believe that is happening. This is just a racket. Those individuals are just being paid huge amounts in disguised payments that cannot be justified. Perhaps the spokespersons can help me in that regard.

I went to my branch of AIB today and I saw an extraordinary figure on my overdraft.

I do not believe that.

I can show the Deputy afterwards. The current account pays 0.5% on deposits but if I am overdrawn I am charged 12.9%. That is an outrageous margin.

My final question relates to small savers. Why are small savers in this country treated with such contempt by the banks? Much lip-service is paid to this question. Some banks say they are very interested in paying small savers and that they value them so much but the on-demand returns given to them are probably at a rate of 0.5% or 1%. At a rate of approximately 4% below inflation, this represents daylight robbery.

My final question concerns the Bank of Ireland and foreign confidence in the banks. Bank of Ireland shares are now yielding at very close to 12% and people are still not buying them. What does this tell us about foreign confidence in Irish banks at present? What do we intend to do about it? This is at the point of crisis.

Mr. Willie McAteer

Senator Quinn is quite right that there is always an implication that people moving to a head office are losing the run of themselves and getting their feet off the ground. I assure him nothing could be further from the truth. We should be operating in one building but are actually operating in eight in Dublin, which is a measure of our success. There will be no fountain in the foyer. We are capitalised so there will be no rights issues.

On Senator Ross's point on small savers, the Anglo Irish Bank has always paid the money market rate to all depositors and has been doing so for many years. We look after our depositors very well.

Members hear us all talking about the same issues and can view our comments with cynicism or not. We have the best interest of the country at heart and are calling it as we see it. If I happen to view matters in the same way as the representatives of the other institutions, I make no apology for doing so.

Can the point on jobs and the international banks be addressed?

Mr. Pat Farrell

On the several occasions when I have been here — I was here three weeks ago and not six months ago — I spoke about the importance of international banks. I hope that some day, before I die, we will have a discussion at this committee on international banks. They are a critical component of the Irish financial services sector and employ over 20,000 staff. There are at least 20,000 people employed in banking and financial services in Dublin alone. All our major head offices are located here. International banks represent one of the main employers in almost all the constituencies of the Deputies present. The substantial presence of international fund companies and other entities in Limerick, Cork, Wicklow and across the country must be borne in mind. The industry is not concentrated in a shiny location in the Irish Financial Services Centre but operates nationally. The banks are very substantial employers.

The outlook for the international banking sector is quite positive. One of our big global banks, Goldman Sachs, only recently located an operation in the Irish Financial Services Centre. From listening to IDA Ireland, I understand firms are still actively interested in locating there.

On the common consolidated corporate tax base, the reality is that it would not be good for Ireland. International financial services, as with foreign direct investors, are in Ireland because of our competitive tax rate. They are also here because they are enabled to settle into a market of 470 million people. They are not here to service the domestic market of 4 million or 5 million people.

The proposals I have seen to date on the common consolidated corporate tax base involve a calculation that would require the reallocation of tax profits based on the consuming country. The place to which exports go and where products are consumed would get the lion's share of the tax. It is unequivocal that this would involve the big domestic consumers of Europe, such as Germany and France, but particularly the latter, which, not unusually, has been at the forefront of pushing this measure. Our very clear view is that the common consolidated corporate tax base would not be good for Ireland Inc., foreign direct investment or international banks.

Remarkably, the greatest challenge the international banks face in Ireland concerns skills. Members might find this strange given the discussion we have been having in the past two hours. There are quite a number of international banks located in the Irish Financial Services Centre that still have very specialised positions they cannot fill. This has been recognised by Forfás and the clearing house group that operates under the auspices of the Department of the Taoiseach, on foot of which recognition an initiative has commenced to collaborate with the universities and the other providers of training with a view to mobilising new training and education initiatives that will raise the skill levels of staff. These skills are badly needed to service and develop lines of business in the Irish Financial Services Centre. This is remarkable but the reality.

On the question on the regulator, the industry is heavily regulated and we are not always in agreement with it.

That question was answered.

Will I receive answers to my questions?

I call Deputy Behan.

Will I receive answers to my questions?

I hope so.

I welcome the delegation. I am always amazed at attempts by certain Opposition speakers to try to talk down the economy at a challenging time. We have had more evidence of this today. I hope we will not hear continual attempts by certain Opposition speakers to try to sabotage the economy for political reasons.

Many issues were raised and we could follow up on some. There is just one elephant left in the room that has not been mentioned today, namely, the approach of banks and building societies to the purchase of houses, particularly by first-time buyers. I have noticed a major change in the attitude of banks and building societies in the past ten years.

One element of affordability concerns the proportion of a mortgage to the property value, be it 90% or 100%, but another element concerns the obvious change in policy towards the length of the term. When I got a mortgage, the term was 20 years. The average today seems to be 30 or 35 years, and occasionally 40 years. This makes the payment look more affordable to the person taking out the mortgage but it effectively condemns him to a 40-year working life of indebtedness on his first mortgage. This is not a responsible approach for any bank or building society to adopt.

What is the approach of the delegates who deal with domestic mortgages with regard to borrowers and the terms of the mortgages they now offer? This issue presents a significant challenge and comprises one of the reasons for the potential difficulties we face.

What discount are the delegates applying in respect of the valuations of houses in terms of offering mortgages? This question fits in neatly with that of Deputy Behan.

Investors have left Irish banking stocks like summer swallows in the past 12 months. The delegates have not given any indication as to why this has happened. The delegates say business is slower than it used to be, which is obvious, but they are not indicating there is major concern. They do not feel any large debts will pop up in the next four or five months or that any major construction companies will go into liquidation on foot of large debts. They have suggested that business is proceeding as usual.

Senator Ross made the point that investors are not biting although the yield on Bank of Ireland shares is 12%, which seems like a good buy. Have international investors concerns over Irish banking stocks, other stocks in Ireland and the general economy that we should be talking about? Will something else explode in another six or seven months?

Deputy Joe Behan may have concerns about people talking down the economy. Although his former party leader said 12 months ago that anyone talking down the construction industry was being unpatriotic, we are in a different position today. Are the delegates aware of another factor about which we should know?

I thank the chief executives for attending. What measures are the banks putting in place to instil confidence in the housing and financial markets? What new lenient measures are in place for home owners who were given 100% mortgages and are now out of a job? How often are loan books reviewed? Will there be an increase in bad debt provisions on balance sheets? What measures have been put in place to ensure no more cases of rogue solicitors occur?

Mr. Farrell spoke about changes to the funding landscape and how financial institutions' fund lending has changed in recent years. It was previously dominated by retail deposits, mainly from Irish customers. Now, approximately 40% of lending to Irish customers is funded by international wholesale sources. Was this a deliberate policy or did it just float along because money was freely available elsewhere?

There was no great drive in recent years to encourage people to deposit money. Instead, aggressive promotion to engage in other forms of investment took place. One gets a miserable return from a deposit account when the banks are selling other products which offer greater returns. People must be encouraged back into the habit of saving with the banks.

Mr. Donal Forde

I will address the issue of share prices. It is wrong to suggest the fall in Irish bank share prices is an Irish story. The share price of Irish banks has fallen by 40% in the past year. In the same period, the share price of UK banks has fallen by between 45% and 75%. The value and potential returns of the sector are being questioned and this is an international phenomenon, not a peculiarly Irish story.

If the outlook for Irish banking stocks is to improve, it can only happen if there is a better outlook for the Irish economy. We are inextricably tied to the good health of the Irish economy. We want to work with every stakeholder. We must have the national interest at heart to serve our own interests. The banks have their own current difficulties. The international financial markets are in crisis. That is part of the difficulties the banks are dealing with but, ultimately, they must solve them in an Irish context. We are up for that and I do not want that message to be unsaid.

Mr. David Guinane

Regarding Deputy Behan's question on mortgage terms, up to five years ago the maximum term was 20 years. That has now stretched to 40 years. The average term, however, of a mortgage has not changed and is still between five and seven years. The longer the term initially, the lower the repayment will be. Many customers start off that way and then revert to a 20 or 25-year term. The banks are not pushing this in any way.

Regarding the changes in lending policies, it is important to realise the banks are still seeing a healthy level of applications for mortgages. However, mortgage borrowers who have been approved are deliberately holding back. This a phenomenon from the past 12 months. I know it seems anecdotal but members will be aware house prices are falling. There is the scenario of borrowers having been approved for a property not wanting to buy at the top of the market. That accounts for the fall in the level of funded-mortgages.

Permanent TSB is at a record low level with arrears. There has been no change to the number of repossessions in the past three 12-month periods except that one is one too many. If or when it arises in the future, Permanent TSB will deal with this in a responsible manner with our customers.

I asked a specific question on margins and the interbank market. At what level are the banks discounting the valuation provided by valuers?

Mr. David Guinane

It has always been our policy that we have a valuation which is provided to the customer. It protects the lending institution and the bank.

Are these being discounted?

Mr. David Guinane

Permanent TSB has never discounted valuations. The valuation is taken from the valuer and the loan is given according to the type of customer and the maximum limit.

The Financial Regulator and its UK counterpart claimed bank executives' pay could be a risk factor. What are the banks going to do about that?

Mr. Donal Forde

Bank executive pay in Ireland is not the same issue as it is in the UK.

The Financial Regulator claimed in a speech it was watching this carefully in response to matters in the UK.

Mr. Donal Forde

I understood the regulator was saying that pay must be aligned with the best interests of the organisation. Its shareholders and customers were the issue. This is an entirely different point rather than the suggestion that pay in Ireland is excessive. All boards of Irish banking organisations will consider how they ensure pay is aligned with the best interests of all stakeholders. That is a different issue entirely from bank executives' pay in Ireland being completely disproportionate. The Senator is referring to an issue that is far more prevalent in the UK.

That is helpful. Does that mean changes are on the way?

Mr. Donal Forde

I am picking up on the fact that the regulator made this point. In the current environment any responsible institution will be checking to ensure salary polices are reviewed and revisited and to ensure any necessary realignments will be done.

What does Mr. Forde think of the chief executive of the Bank of Ireland getting €4 million last year?

Mr. Donal Forde

I have no views on that. I will leave it to my colleagues.

I thank the delegations for attending. The committee has had a free and open discussion. I hope this meeting will have clarified many of the questions raised in the media. I hope it will assure people that the Irish banking structure is solid and productive.

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