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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jul 2008

Taxes Consolidation Act 1997: Discussion with Dyslexia Association of Ireland.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I draw attention to the fact that while members have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee.

The Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service has invited Ms Rosie Bissett, director of the Dyslexia Association of Ireland, to discuss a submission by the association to have the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 amended. The relevant section of the Act, the original submission and a letter from the Department of Education and Science concerning it have been circulated. Ms Bissett is accompanied by Ms Jo Gannon, national president, and Ms Mary Ball, director of education. I welcome the delegation and thank its members for being available. I understand that prior to my taking up the position of Chairman there were several meetings arranged which, for reasons we all know, had to be cancelled. We are pleased the delegation is here today to make its case.

Ms Rosie Bissett

Thank you. We are pleased to be here. We thank the committee for the invitation to meet it to discuss our campaign to have tax legislation amended in order that tuition fees for children attending Dyslexia Association of Ireland workshops can be made tax deductible. The campaign was undertaken because of the inadequate State funding of the services of the Dyslexia Association of Ireland which had resulted in hardship for many families. That is the background to the campaign.

The Dyslexia Association of Ireland is a voluntary organisation with 31 branches nationwide. One of the key services our branches offer is specialist outside-of-school workshop classes for children diagnosed with dyslexia. These classes offer targeted specialist tuition in small groups and a balanced programme to develop children's learning, covering phonics, basic reading, reading fluency, reading comprehension strategies, spelling, writing skills, oral language development, computer skills, study and memory strategies. The pupil-teacher ratio is as low as 4:1 or 5:1, which is necessary because of the specialist input the children require.

On average, tuition workshops cost approximately €900 per year. The fees are necessary to pay for rent of premises, materials and the hourly rate due to teachers who provide the specialist tuition. All workshops are fully tax compliant. We estimate that in 2007 Revenue earned more than €200,000 in tax and PRSI from our workshops which are not competing with the learning supports offered by the school system; they are supplementary. They are not an optional extra that parents choose as a luxury, but a necessity for the children concerned. They provide targeted, specialist support for children who have been assessed as needing this support. Many of them are not getting enough help in school, which is the reason they attend a Dyslexia Association of Ireland workshop. I extend an invitation to members of the committee to visit a workshop to see the valuable work being done and meet teachers, parents and children to see exactly how they work.

The supports available in schools are not meeting the specialised needs of pupils with dyslexia, despite their best efforts. The school service provides learning support targeted at the most severely affected children. At second level, resource teaching is only available to children at the second percentile or lower, the bottom 2% in terms of their literacy ability for their age group. Children at primary level have no entitlement to resource teaching, which is one to one, as opposed to learning support. The allocation of learning support hours is up to each school; schools are allocated hours which they then decide how to distribute best among their pupils. The Department of Education and Science learning support guidelines advise concentrating on children whose literacy skills would be at the 12th percentile or under, but in practice children at that level may not receive learning support because there is such a demand for the service.

In a Dyslexia Association of Ireland survey earlier this year almost 50% of parents reported difficulty in receiving any learning support in school. Many children miss out on it in school because their needs are not being identified or perceived as being sufficiently severe to warrant the provision of support. Assessment in school is not based on stringent group tests; many children are not undergoing the psycho-educational assessment they need which would provide a comprehensive assessment of their actual learning needs and recommendations for the support needed to remediate them. The right to a fair assessment of needs is enshrined in the Disability Bill, but we do not see it happening in a timely fashion.

The assessments made in school such as the Micra-T and Drumcondra tests only look at basic literacy and numeracy levels. They do not assess reading fluency, comprehension, memory and free writing ability. As a result, the true nature and degree of many children's difficulties are not being identified. School tests only measure children against their peers, not their own potential or ability. It is possible and often happens that a child could be hugely under-performing relative to his or her ability and potential, yet it does not show up because of the tests used in schools.

Generally, the support on offer in school is not specific to dyslexia. Even children whose difficulties are deemed severe enough to obtain support are often dealt with in a general learning support class, in which they are in a mixed group with children of wide ranging difficulties; support is not targeted at individual need. Teachers in learning support posts do not always have the necessary expertise in dyslexia to address it. The service offered by Dyslexia Association of Ireland workshops is specialised and targeted, making it highly cost effective. Recent research done by a PhD student at Trinity College Dublin which compared the supports on offer in the school system with Dyslexia Association of Ireland workshops found that our workshop system was the most targeted and specialised and offered the most balanced and thorough programme of intervention for children with dyslexia. The services workshops provide are meeting the shortfall in the school system, with which we are not competing. What the workshops offer is the kind of programme recommended in the 2005 report, Succeeding in Reading, commissioned for the Department of Education and Science and compiled by the Educational Research Centre, Drumcondra, which stated, "Children at risk of reading difficulties should receive a greater amount of reading instruction through a combination of increased English lesson time in school and participation in targeted outside-of-school support programmes", which is where our service comes in.

Ideally, we would prefer if the Dyslexia Association of Ireland was given adequate funding towards the running costs of these specialist workshops. We would then be able to offer subsidised fees on a sliding scale which we could target at the families most in need. We rely on our own limited fund-raising efforts to enable us to support some families, but we are not able to support all those who need assistance. Some services have been discontinued because of financial difficulties. Due to the reluctance of the Department of Education and Science to provide comprehensive funding or give any commitment to provide ongoing funding, we campaigned for an amendment to section 469 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to have workshop fees included as allowable expenses on the MED 1 form. Parents in the tax system would be able to obtain some relief on the fees payable and the Dyslexia Association of Ireland could concentrate on assisting families at the low end of the income scale and those not even in the tax system.

Ideally if the Dyslexia Association of Ireland had sufficient funds, it could subsidise families and target the most financially disadvantaged. It gets an annual grant from the Department of Education and Science of €63,500 which goes towards its information service and national office, and what is left over goes towards providing assessments subsidising fees for children from disadvantaged families. This funding has never been increased since it was first obtained in 2001. There is no guarantee that the Dyslexia Association of Ireland will get money year on year. Despite several submissions we have not heard whether it is to get any money this year. Unfortunately this is what usually happens. We are very limited in terms of planning because of that. From our 2007 allocation, only €3,500 was available to subsidise fees for children in workshops.

Through fund-raising initiatives in which we have been involved in the past couple of years we have raised some income which we have used to subsidise fees. Last year we used more than €30,000 from fund-raising to subsidise fees and another €30,000 was raised locally by our network of local branches around the country of which there are more than 30. Much of the money we raised recently was from a fund-raising initiative, the Hasbro National Game Playing Week Fund. Unfortunately that fund is now exhausted. That is why in 2007 and again this year we have applied to the Department of Education and Science for approximately €70,000 in additional funding each year to make up the shortfall and enable the Dyslexia Association of Ireland to continue to support financially disadvantaged families.

An example of the difficulties caused by lack of funding is that a very popular and successful summer school for students with dyslexia has had to be discontinued because parents cannot afford to pay the fees. Parents would have had to pay the full economic cost because the Dyslexia Association of Ireland, owing to its financial situation, is not in a position to subsidise the fees in any way and, unlike the summer colleges in the Gaeltacht areas, no subsidy was forthcoming from the Department of Education and Science. We estimate that the cost of allowing tax relief on workshop fees to parents is not likely to exceed €200,000 in a year. Coincidentally, that is the amount we estimate Revenue gains in terms of tax and PRSI from our workshops.

In the context of tax relief, the implementation of the MED 1 system appears to discriminate against children with dyslexia. As matters stand, if someone has a speech and language assessment and requires speech and language therapy, both are allowed on the MED 1 form. If someone has medical tests and requires medical treatment both are allowed. In the case of dyslexia, the psycho-educational assessment which diagnoses the difficulty is allowed but there is no allowance or relief for any follow-up treatment recommended following the assessment. How can this be justified? It makes no sense.

Irish language summer colleges are heavily subsidised, to the tune of €1.228 million in 2006. Irish is taught in every school already, and all other learning is not dependent on a good level of Irish, whereas, if a child with dyslexia is struggling with English, this will impact on his or her ability to learn across the whole curriculum.

The Government gives generous tax relief on fees to private third level colleges, on some foreign language and IT courses. It also gives generous tax relief on pensions. However, there is no real financial assistance given to families struggling to cover the additional costs associated with getting necessary help for a child with a diagnosed specific learning disability such as dyslexia. One parent commented in our recent survey that even bin charges are tax deductible, yet there is no relief for fees to Dyslexia Association of Ireland specialist classes.

In their pre-budget submissions in recent years, the Disability Federation of Ireland and many other disability organisations have called on the Government to introduce a cost of disability payment to help address the additional expenses incurred which are above and beyond those experienced by people without a disability. This is backed up by research done by the National Disability Authority. Parents of children with dyslexia face a great deal of extra expense, and many have to make huge sacrifices to secure the extra tuition their children need. They do not undertake these expenses lightly, and some even resort to taking out loans to get the necessary help for their children.

I want to give members an example of one of the families we have helped recently and quote an extract from one of their letters. It states:

Myself and X are finding it very hard to pay for the workshop for the past few years. X is on Disability pension and is very sick. She has Multiple Sclerosis and Ulcerative Colitis. I have no overtime at work. I would be very grateful if you could help us out.

That application, which was evidenced by their local community welfare officer, showed that the family had an income of €530 for four people, one of whom was seriously ill. The family would not lightly send their daughter for extra tuition and incur that extra expense if it was not essential but they recognise the benefit this girl was getting from attending the workshop. We were glad to help them out and offer them some subsidy for the fees.

All disability and equality legislation is underpinned by the concept of fairness, something that comes up regularly in the disability field. The concept of fairness does not mean treating everyone the same, and this is where people sometimes get it wrong. People believe everyone must be treated identically to be doing the best for them but fairness means treating everyone individually and giving everyone what they need. Fairness is essential also for good governance.

In terms of bringing that argument for fairness in this area, to us it would seem unfair. Relief is allowed for fees for courses which will enrich a child's cultural experience, for example, with Irish or for courses that advance career prospects at third level but no relief is given on courses that provide a vital educational benefit to these children and without adequate literacy, educational progress is extremely difficult and sometimes impossible. It appears the relief system as it currently stands is very unfair in terms of where the reliefs are targeted.

Our request today is that this committee would support our requests for, first, realistic, secure and multi-annual funding to ensure the Dyslexia Association of Ireland can develop a rational three year plan. If we have a commitment to funding, that enables us to plan our services much better. Second, we request an amendment to section 469 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to allow Dyslexia Association of Ireland workshop fees to be tax deductible.

The Dyslexia Association of Ireland believes a combination of both additional funding and tax relief may be the best approach. Amending section 469 of the Taxes Consolidation Act allowing for tax relief on workshop fees will assist those families that fall within the tax net. Additional secure funding to the association will enable us to continue to subsidise those families who are financially disadvantaged, and particularly those who will not fall into the tax net. That will allow us target those most at need.

Any resources spent on this type of early and timely targeted intervention for children with dyslexia will be well spent. That will be backed up by cost benefit analysis done by the National Economic and Social Forum in 2006, which suggested that every €1 invested in targeted early education initiatives would yield a return of €7, both in terms of having a more educated and productive workforce but also in terms of the costs saved on unemployment benefit and adult literacy costs, let alone the costs of incarceration if, unfortunately, people fall in that direction.

To give members an example, the Dyslexia Association of Ireland currently runs a career paths course, which we run in conjunction with FÁS, and it is for unemployed adults with dyslexia. It is a full-time six months course for these adults designed to train them and get them either back into the workforce or on to specialist career training. Conservatively, we would estimate that the cost per participant per year on one of those courses is approximately €25,000. If that is contrasted with the cost of €900 a year to give a child that early intervention of help in a workshop, the argument is clear.

We hope the committee will support our campaign for additional funding and tax relief on fees and we thank the members for giving us this opportunity to discuss the issue with them today.

Thank you. Would Ms Ball or Ms Gannon like to make any comment?

Ms Mary Ball

Ms Bissett has presented most of our arguments. If members want to ask questions, that is probably the best way to proceed.

We shall start with our teacher, Deputy Behan.

I join the Chairman and other committee members in welcoming the delegation. I congratulate them on the magnificent work the Dyslexia Association of Ireland is doing nationally, as well as the professionalism of their presentation. Effectively, they are seeking our support for the two issues to which they referred.

Dyslexia is a specific learning and reading difficulty, it is not an indication that a person has low intelligence or low ability. Many high achievers across all walks of life have dyslexia but it does not prevent them from living full and successful lives. That message should always go out to people who suffer from that condition. Nonetheless, people who have dyslexia should be encouraged and supported in whatever way possible. As a primary school teacher, I value the work that is done for primary school children with dyslexia. Intervention should be made as early as possible.

Ms Bissett has made a number of very reasonable points, including the interesting issue of tax allowances. The point was made that it could be seen as something that would benefit parents who are wealthy enough to be in the tax code and can benefit from it. Ms Bissett balanced that, however, by saying that if national funding was available to the Dyslexia Association of Ireland it would be targeted at disadvantaged families. I wholeheartedly support that idea. If members of the committee agree with Ms Bissett's request that we should write to the Minister for Finance, we should in principle support what the association has sought. We should also seek a response from the Minister which can be passed on to the Dyslexia Association of Ireland. We might also write to the Department of Education and Science since the association is awaiting word on its funding for this year. We should write to that Department to ask if the matter can be resolved as soon as possible.

I also thank the representatives of the Dyslexia Association of Ireland for attending. Is it the first time the association has appeared before this committee?

As regards funding, did Ms Bissett say that €63,500 is all the association receives annually from the Government to keep all its operational services running? The association's presentation states that "Funding has not been increased to take account of inflation and a significant increase in running costs over the last ten years". Why does the association not receive guaranteed annual funding? Why does it constantly have to revert to the Department, particularly when it provides such a valuable service for young children? Is any extra help given to teachers in order that they can diagnose dyslexia earlier and can then refer pupils to the association? Can Ms Bissett advise me where the association's workshop is located on the northside of Dublin?

Ms Rosie Bissett

I will do my best to deal with all those questions. It is the first time the association has been before this committee. We get some other funding, so the €63,500 is not the only funding. This year, we are getting €120,000 towards our adult services, the majority of which goes to support the career paths course I mentioned - the full-time course for unemployed adults with dyslexia. It also goes towards providing subsidised assessment and tuition for adults who are financially disadvantaged.

The other Government funding we get is from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, under the scheme for supporting nationwide community networks. Thanks to that Department, we are on a programme whereby we will get just over €90,000 each year for three years. The purpose of that funding is to support our network of branches around the country and it is specific to it. It part-funds Ms Mary Ball's role as director of education, going to all our workshops, ensuring best practice and doing in-service with, and training for, teachers. It also supports our branch liaison officer, Ms Deirdre McGuinness, who is in the Visitors Gallery and who visits all the committees. All our branches are run by local voluntary committees. They must deal with issues such as running the committee and fund-raising and raising awareness locally. However, they also have the task of having to register as employers and doing tax, PRSI and so on.

The funding we get from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is very much to support the network and training in that regard. None of the other funding we get goes towards teaching children. The €63,500 from the Department is primarily for the information service. The little left over is available for subsidised assessments for children. Everything else is for adult services. I will send members a copy of our annual report.

The reality for us is that we must charge for many of our services. For example, we must charge €400 for assessments, except in cases we can subsidise. Workshop fees are €900. We do many training courses for teachers and courses for parents. We must charge €250 for training courses for teachers.

We also do fund-raising and we have a membership fee of €40 per year. Families need only pay one membership fee per family. These are the ways we can generate income to enable us to provide services. If we were only to provide services based on any funding we got from the Government, unfortunately, it would be very limited or non-existent.

It seems shameful that funding has not increased even in line with inflation.

Ms Rosie Bissett

It is not for the want of trying. Each year we apply for more funding. We usually apply in the autumn of the previous year. Our 2007 funding came the day before Christmas; therefore, it comes at the end of the year for which one applies. At one point, the previous director was told verbally that our funding does not appear anywhere in the costings or budgets in the Department and that they wait until the end of the year to see if there is anything left over and then we might get something.

The sum of €63,500 is the core amount about which I am talking. The €120,000 we get for adult education comes from the further education section in the Department of Education and Science, which has been very good to us. We have received part of our allocation for adult services. However, each year we are left in limbo in regard to the core grant for the information service and for children.

In the past two years, we have applied for more than €120,000. This year we applied for approximately €130,000. As I said, that is allowing for the €63,500 plus extra money. We have not asked for much extra for our information services. We have asked for extra money to enable us to provide fee subsidies for the financially disadvantaged. We are not asking for a lot of money in order that we can have plush offices or anything like that. If members visit our offices, they will see they are anything but plush.

Ms Jo Gannon

The organisation was set up in 1972. Since then, we have expanded to 31 branches around the country. One worrying aspect is that we have already closed our summer school this past year because we cannot afford to keep it running.

It is important for the association to be able to plan forward and we cannot do so because we do not have guaranteed funding. If anything underpins the ethos of dyslexia work, it is to plan and be organised. I see that as a new development in the association in this past two years. It is a serious issue from our point of view.

The fund-raising committee is a voluntary group, mostly made up of parents who have children who are dyslexic or who are involved in dyslexia in some way or other. We are totally dependent on that group to do any extra fund raising for the association. If that does not happen, then we are left in a situation where we do not have adequate funds. The association is about our children getting the targeted education they need.

I take it a decision has not been made yet on funding for 2008. When is the association expecting that decision?

Ms Rosie Bissett

If it is like previous years, it will involve us writing and telephoning the Department and, I hope, in December, getting something from it. That has been the routine in recent years.

The association can be sure of my support. The sum of money involved, €200,000, is a small one in the scheme of things. The priority should be educating our children and each child's right to a proper education.

Ms Mary Ball

Deputy Terence Flanagan asked two questions and I do not know if we answered them. The first was about teachers. I missed the question.

Ms Rosie Bissett

It was about diagnosis in the classroom.

At an early stage.

Ms Mary Ball

That is correct, I am sorry. In terms of running teacher courses, for many years the Dyslexia Association of Ireland provided the in-service in specialist methods for dyslexia. It is only in the past two or three years that the teacher training colleges have such a module. Up to this the teacher training colleges expected one to come out of college with a basic knowledge of teaching and if one wanted to work with specialist groups, one did a specialist postgraduate diploma.

Ms Bissett mentioned what we do in terms of running the teacher courses. Mr. Alan Sayles, who is now with the Department, ran the course for approximately 25 years. It is a 25 hour course. Teachers are paying €250 for 20 to 25 hours of specialist teaching. That, by any standards, is good value. I would pay more than that if I were to attend a day seminar in my profession.

We have been tapping into that and it has helped. We would have perhaps 50 to 60 participants per course with, for example, four to five courses a year. Over 25 years that has amounted to the training of a great many teachers. The awareness of dyslexia, even since I started working, has improved enormously but there is still a considerable need.

The other question Deputy Terence Flanagan asked, which might be a personal one, was the names of our workshops on the northside. Starting with Balbriggan, we are also located in Rush, Malahide and Gardiner Street. Have I left out any?

Ms Rosie Bissett

The northside workshop is on Gardiner Street.

Ms Mary Ball

If Deputy Flanagan wants details of that, we can give him contact names and numbers.

I welcome Ms Bissett, Ms Gannon and Ms Ball here today and thank them for their attendance. What percentage of the school-going population is dyslexic? How would they define dyslexia? It is probably a difficult question as we often come across dyslexia in young children.

Reference was made to the Disability Act 2005. As Ms Bissett stated, funding is only available in respect of children under five years of age. Children at primary level are not entitled to access the services of resource teachers. At second level, only those children at the second percentile or lower are entitled to do so. By the time children enter secondary school it is already too late.

What percentage of children in disadvantaged areas suffer with dyslexia? According to the presentation, the Dyslexia Association of Ireland sees 1,000 children and some 300 of the parents of these children do not come within the tax net. I take that these people are on low incomes or are unemployed. Does the Dyslexia Association of Ireland have a waiting list? If so, how many people are on it?

I cannot speak for other members but I am sure they would agree that the funding for the Dyslexia Association of Ireland is way too low and that it should have been provided on time. What should be done within the education system to ensure there are early diagnoses in respect of children who suffer with dyslexia in order that parents and teacher might be better able to deal with the problems those children experience? If dyslexia is detected early, this can have enormous implications for the future of a child.

Will our guests provide a broad overview in respect of the questions I have posed. It is a matter of funding. What should be put in place in schools? I presume the Dyslexia Association of Ireland works with primary and secondary schools. It is vital that dyslexia is detected when children are in their early days in primary school.

Ms Mary Ball

Figures are not available regarding the percentage of children in schools who suffer with dyslexia. A survey to identify the number of such children in Ireland has never been carried out. The UK and US statistics show figures ranging from 2% to 30%. It all depends on how one defines dyslexia, which was the second part of the Deputy's question. We estimate that between 4% and 8% of people - the actual figure would probably lie towards the higher end of the range - have some form of dyslexia which requires that they need more attention than that which can be provided in the general classroom environment.

How do we define dyslexia? Dyslexia has only been the subject of research for 150 years. With the advent of MRI and PET scans and advances in the area of neuroscience since the 1970s, we now know a great deal more about dyslexia than our predecessors and we are in a position to state that there is a genetic component involved. If one or other of a person's parents has dyslexia, he or she has a 50% chance of having some form of it. Dyslexia is a neurological developmental condition. In other words, it does not involve having problems reading and writing, seeing letters back to front and so on; it actually relates to brain structure. It cannot be said absolutely scientifically what causes the block people have but, as far as scientists can say, there are differences in brain structure, there is a genetic component and it is developmental.

At some point in the early development of the foetus or the child, cells divide differently. When it comes to looking at the written word, difficulties emerge and, at that stage, they are into the school system. However, the core feature in dyslexia is a difficulty with phonology and that starts much earlier that with the written word. There is a huge overlap between oral and written language. The most recent research from the research unit in the University of York, which has a reading unit, says there is a high correlation or comorbidity between speech and language impairment and dyslexia. When it comes to defining "dyslexia", these are the scientific facts we know about the neurostructure.

The Department of Education and Science needs to be more specific about that and provide descriptions of dyslexia. Officials will say if somebody is functioning on an IQ test in the average or above average range and the disparity between that and his or her reading and writing levels, when all other conditions are appropriate, is sufficiently wide, he or she is defined as dyslexic. That is a rule of thumb description used by the education system. If that is applied rigidly, people will be diagnosed with dyslexia by number when one could be dealing with cognitive processes that may not fit into that. Perhaps a child has been at risk, the parents are informed and an early intervention strategy adopted. That relates to the second part of the Deputy's question about what the school should do.

The Department and schools have done a great deal in the past five years and the weighting of learning support and resources has been aimed at developing reading skills at an early stage. The learning support guidelines provide for a staged approach. The children do not have to wait until they are aged ten and failing. If they are doing less well than they should be in their end of year tests as they go through the system, they go for learning support, which is reviewed after three months. They are then tested and reviewed again. Once a child is considered to be within an average range of reading, he or she is left in the general classroom.

A child with dyslexia will invariably slip back because one of the features of the condition is the need for more repetition for a skill to become automatic. One of the current theories about the salient features of dyslexia is a difficulty with the mechanism that allows us to learn a skill automatically. The children's difficulty is becoming automatic in the recognition of and matching of letters with sounds, which takes much longer. If the child is left in the general classroom, it is not enough to ensure early intervention in first, second or third class. If they are left with no support they are likely to underachieve. They may be above the second percentile but they are certainly struggling.

The last feature of the dyslexia description is a deficit in working memory. Working memory has huge impacts within the school. When I speak to teachers I always say that if any of them are dyslexic I will have lost them after the first two sentences, because that is what working memory does. We use it all the time. We are able to hold the information long enough to match it with the bit that comes next and so on. If one has a short working memory that cannot happen. If one suffers from memory fatigue one loses attention and learning comes in a scrappy way.

I go into this detail to show that the system is doing as much as it can, in terms of early intervention. However, the system is not recognising the wholeness of the dyslexic problem. It is not a simple matter of fixing a problem and telling a child he or she is okay and can continue alone. The people at the top cognitive level are able to do that because they are able to put in strategies but most of us are plodding average learners and have to be shown strategies to get around difficulties. That is where our workshops are useful. We are able to give that additional time which the schools are not able to provide, unless they look at things differently.

Ms Jo Gannon

Let me cite two examples. It was refreshing to hear Deputy Behan's reference to dyslexia as having nothing to do with intelligence. Most of these children are bright, have above average intelligence and do very well.

I came to dyslexia through my own son, who was diagnosed when he was nine years old. He had input through the Dyslexia Association of Ireland from the age of ten. His last contact with the association was when he was about 16 in a preparation for junior certificate class. He is now doing a master's degree in educational psychology in NUI Galway. I am a teacher and also have a student who is just above the second percentile, which was mentioned. This means 97% of the population are functioning at a higher level than he can achieve. He had resource help in primary school. When he went into secondary school we applied for resource hours for him but because he was not below the second percentile his resource help was withdrawn and he has had no help whatsoever in school. All his help is now outside school. His parents have put him forward for assessment for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, in the hope that they will get a positive result. That is very sad. If he gets a positive result he will get resource hours in school. There is a huge problem in this area. This boy is of average intelligence. He should not have this problem and should do well if he gets the resource help. That is what the school can do. The second percentile cut-off creates a huge difficulty.

Is targeting children below a particular percentile the proper way to go about things? Should the percentile level be increased? My understanding of what the witnesses have said is that at primary level, while initial work is good follow-through is poor and at secondary level help is, effectively, non-existent because it only applies to 2% of students.

Ms Jo Gannon

The boy I referred to is a case in point. He got resource hours in primary school and had a reasonably comfortable time there, although it was difficult for him. Now he is having great difficulties. He is already two and a half years behind in reading. One can imagine his difficulty in trying to access history, geography, science and other subjects.

How long are the waiting lists?

Ms Rosie Bissett

Waiting lists for workshops vary and the waiting times for a place for many of them can be from a couple of months to over a year. Waiting times for assessments are approximately ten or 11 months.

Is that at primary or secondary level or both?

Ms Rosie Bissett

That is for all levels, primary, secondary and adults.

From what age are assessments done?

Ms Rosie Bissett

We do assessments from six and a half upwards. That is about the earliest we can get a definitive diagnosis. There are some early screening tests that can be done prior to that, even in school, that would give an idea of how at risk a child is.

That does not coincide with the Disability Act which provides for screening at under five years of age. There is a case for the age group for these assessments to be extended upwards.

Ms Rosie Bissett

Absolutely. I do not understand why this is not done, but it is probably due to lack of resources. I presume the plan is to raise the age level for those assessments eventually. Due to the nature of children's development, it is difficult to assess not just dyslexia, but various other specific learning difficulties at early ages. We can identify signs, but may not be able to say definitively what kind of support these children need.

We see second level generally as an area where support falls down. Much work has been put into the primary sector and there is more awareness there, but at second level support is minimal. The irony is that if children manage to get through second level and into third level, there are excellent support structures at third level. We would love if second level could avail of similar supports to third level. For example, the cut-off points are so arbitrary that if a person is one point out, he or she will get nothing. Many students with dyslexia at second level may have reasonable compensatory strategies as a result of the help they got at primary level or at workshops. They may have built their up their underlying literacy skills in terms of basic reading and spelling. However, they may have higher order difficulties such as problems with working memory, difficulty taking notes in class, difficulty with exams and timing or difficulty with sequencing and organisation of written work. There should be a more flexible support structure at second level with, perhaps, a dedicated special needs co-ordinator in the school, a structure that students could dip into as required. Some students might need to dip in quite regularly for support, but others who are more able or who have compensated for their difficulties might only need to dip in once or twice a term. They still need that help.

Can Ms Bissett explain what supports are available at third level?

Ms Rosie Bissett

At third level, the services vary from college to college. All of the big colleges have a designated disability support service which deals with all disabilities, not just dyslexia. The CAO system allows students to record the fact they have a disability and this notifies the colleges to which they are applying.

Is dyslexia regarded in that way?

Ms Rosie Bissett

It is regarded as a disability. Dyslexia comes under the disability legislation.

I do not mean it in that way but whether it is recognised by the third level system.

Ms Rosie Bissett

Students with dyslexia form the highest percentage of students with disabilities at third level.

Do students going from primary to post-primary level have to give any indication to the new school authorities that they suffer from dyslexia?

I thank the Deputy for asking his questions and thank the three representatives of the Dyslexia Association of Ireland. I found the discussion very educational, although I thought I knew something about the issue beforehand. For five years in the 1990s I was chairman of the committee that introduced the leaving certificate applied and found my experience on that committee very educational. I was particularly impressed by learning of the seven different kinds of intelligence mentioned by Howard Gardner and the ten different kinds of intelligence spoken of by Charles Handy. These men were very careful in the use of the word "intelligence". We did not hear much about dyslexia on that committee, but it was clear that the traditional leaving certificate measured a student's ability to spend two to three hours in an exam situation writing what one knew about the topic in response to the questions. If a student was not good at writing, he or she was a failure. The leaving certificate applied provided continuous assessment on a different basis which measured a person's ability to communicate in different ways. Suddenly, people who had been regarded as failures all their lives were enthusiastic because they were now regarded as being successful. It follows that if one is good at doing one thing, one will be successful at other things. We did not realise in those days the extent of the occurrence of dyslexia.

I am not sure I even understand some of the terms used in the presentation. Ms Bissett referred to resource teaching being only available to children at the second percentile or lower and I ask her to explain this to me in her reply. She stated that dyslexia tuition is not now deemed a medical expense but it must have been until some time ago. I looked up the current tax provisions. There is no provision in tax law to allow relief for expenses relating specifically to dyslexia treatment or instruction. However, section 469 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provides for tax relief under the heading of health expenses in respect of expenses representing the cost of (1) an educational psychological assessment carried out by an educational psychologist or (2) speech and language therapy carried out by a speech and language therapist. The Act states that for the purpose of this tax relief, educational psychologist means a person who is entered on a register maintained by the Minister for Education and Science, in accordance with guidelines set down by the Minister and with the Minister for Finance's consent and a speech and language therapist means a person approved in a different way. I did not understand this and I ask Ms Bissett to explain. When I looked for advice I asked why would the rules on dyslexia have changed. The reply I received was that the Government probably argues that one advantage of the direct expenditure route is that the support may be better targeted at those in need, irrespective of family income, whereas support through the tax system can only benefit those whose incomes are high enough to benefit from tax relief. I am assuming this is the reason and obviously there are figures. It is very easy to jump to the conclusion that this is unfair to everybody but maybe the argument is that this is a better use of money.

An article in the Irish Independent last September stated that in Galway about 100 families previously qualified to claim the relief of up to €400. In addition the newspaper reported a figure of €135 per week to send two children to a tutor and a workshop in Coolock. There was a lovely quote which said, “I cried with relief to hear I was dyslexic”. I do not have the full details of that story.

It seems the association has a very strong case. I would like to hear about the help at primary and secondary school levels. I know something about the help available at third level where a lot of help is provided. My experience of the leaving certificate applied programme was that these youngsters at the age of 16 to 18 who had been regarded as failures, had probably gone to the back of the class when they were five, six or seven years of age and had been almost left behind and had lost their confidence. There is a significant level of talent and intelligence which can be used if we can find the right way to do so. I am asking whether this is the best way.

Ms Rosie Bissett

In terms of the tax relief, it was never written in the legislation that workshop fees were allowable at any point. Parents started claiming them when the Department brought in the assessment fees as being allowable. These claims seem to have been allowed by Revenue officers but when the volume of claims increased, there was a clampdown and they were all being refused and parents were told these fees were not technically covered. They were never technically allowable yet they were in practice allowed and then withdrawn and this sparked the beginning of our campaign for tax relief. We appreciate the argument put forward at the time by the then Minister for Finance with regard to direct provision. There is really not that much direct provision targeted at dyslexia. It is not just our funding. The allocation in schools is general. The model for support at primary school is called the general allocation model which was introduced a number of years ago. Prior to that general allocation model children with dyslexia at the second percentile or lower at primary level could get resource teaching. When the general allocation model was introduced - perhaps to limit the processing of all the applications for resource hours - the idea was that the Department would give a general allocation to the primary school and completely leave it up to the school as to how best to allocate those hours. The child might or might not get learning support or might get it in a group with children with all sorts of other difficulties.

The support at primary level is considerably better than the support at secondary level. The chance of a secondary school pupil who is not below the second percentile getting any support is almost negligible. For some students the leaving certificate applied has been a lifesaver. It has enabled certain students to complete second level where prior to its availability many of them were dropping out and in cases where they stayed they were probably doing very poorly or getting the kinds of grades in their leaving certificate examinations that did not reflect their ability at all because of the memory and processing difficulties and the difficulty of coping with a timed examination, which tends to exacerbate many of the dyslexic traits. This meant they were really underachieving and underperforming. Unfortunately if a person underperforms in the leaving certificate it has quite a knock-on effect on progress thereafter.

Ms Mary Ball

Senator Quinn asked about the second percentile about which people get terribly confused. Ms Bissett's paper outlined the difference between learning support and resource. The resource is only to the very small group of children. The second percentile refers to the statistical figures on reading tests. It means that if I give a test to 100 six year olds, the person who comes at the second percentile is the second from the bottom. It is really rank ordering. These tests are age related. A person who is at the second percentile at the age of six and is again at the second percentile at seven, is compared with seven year olds and not still compared with the performance as a six year old. The person may have improved and have five more words in his or her vocabulary but is compared relative to the seven year olds. That is the second percentile. Parents can get very confused with this on reports. The tenth percentile is the same.

If you can, imagine what somebody is like at the bottom of that pile. A person at the second percentile at any stage is virtually a non-reader and virtually illiterate. We must do something else for a pupil entering secondary school with a reading age at the second percentile. We need to give them laptops and let them have voice-operated materials. We need to get teachers to differentiate the way in which they present their materials, reducing the reading load. Considerable work needs to be done. The Senator asked about the incidence in areas in which the general level of literacy is very poor. That is a major problem. Secondary teachers have an insurmountable task. They are so overwhelmed by the general level of literacy that they find it quite difficult to differentiate even mentally the child with dyslexia. However, a great injustice can be done there. If we are measuring their ability on reading only, we may not be realising other potential. I have said that in a roundabout way but I hope it is understandable.

I understand it.

Ms Mary Ball

To return to the question from Deputy O'Donnell about what the school needs, at second level there are two huge problems. One is the type of teacher training and the demands on the teacher. Teachers have to get children through the leaving certificate, which is a very rigid type of exam. We are already into an argument about exam accommodations and what is the cut-off point where one gives accommodations to a child who has a difficulty. The second problem is the kind of training teachers receive. In general, there is very little awareness of dyslexia in the second level cohort and the subject teachers tend to leave it to the learning support teachers to deal with the problem. A systemic change is required in addition to what we are doing.

I wish Deputy Michael Ahern well in his new role as Chairman of the committee. I thank him for his marvellous work on behalf of the State as a Minister.

I welcome Ms Rosie Bissett, director, Ms Jo Gannon, national president and Ms Mary Ball, director of education from the Dyslexia Association of Ireland. I was interested to note the matter on the agenda of today's meeting as I have a slight vested interest in that my daughter worked for the organisation for a period. She had great respect for the work of the association. Ms Anne Hughes played a very important role in the formation of the organisation. In 2003-04, I made representations on behalf of the organisation but I see that was without great success. I can confirm that the association runs on a modest budget. I have been in the office on Suffolk Street. Is that where the association is still based?

Ms Rosie Bissett

Yes.

I believe the association was planning to move at one stage to another office.

Ms Rosie Bissett

Finances did not allow for that.

If the Chairman gets an opportunity he should visit the office as it is close to Leinster House. The office is comfortable but modest. It is not suitable for meeting clients with a physical disability.

Ms Mary Ball

That is true.

I know of the work of Ms Ball, the director of education. The recording of the submission could prove to be very useful for teachers. Given the information we have received and the replies to questions asked by my colleagues I am better informed than ever on dyslexia. The issue does not get the recognition it deserves. I am aware of a young student who did not get special assistance at the leaving certificate, which affected their future career and that is a real shame.

I thank the Chairman for allowing the discussion. The submission for funding in 2008 is the same as in 2007. I accept cutbacks are being implemented but we cannot have any cutbacks in this area as funding for it has been cut in recent years. The association has received great support today from the committee members. The former Minister has great knowledge of the tax code. The witnesses made a reasonable case as far as tax concessions are concerned. The point has been made that a number of the association's clients would not benefit from a tax concession. That is a fact. Grant-in-aid is very important and more is required to assist the organisation. The two main points that were made relate to multi-annual funding, which is very important, and the amendment to the tax code, which would be of assistance. I presume the association has charitable status.

Ms Rosie Bissett

Yes.

As an organisation with charitable status, does the association avail of the provision of the tax Act, which would allow a refund of any contributions made to it by contributors who pay taxes?

Ms Rosie Bissett

Where possible. However, many of our donations are quite small and often would not be at a level to qualify for refund but we are signed up to the scheme.

The scheme is a good one and has been availed of by the churches. It is bringing in quite a lot of money to my area, which is very helpful.

I fully support the allocation of multi-annual funding and would like the sum to be increased. The delegates have made a very strong case to the committee and an amendment to the taxation legislation would be helpful. The recognition of multi-annual funding is vital, as is the work of the delegates. I am familiar with the work and have been told about it. I heard that the Chairman tried years ago to obtain grants for the Dyslexia Association of Ireland. I tried and did so but without great success. I hope the association's presence today will help in this regard. I will not ask the delegates any questions because I know many of the answers and heard all the answers given today.

I fully support the association's application for funding and wish it well in its work. I hope some wealthy property owner in Dublin will be in a position to provide new accommodation that will assist the association in its work. Alternatively, I hope the Department will be able to make available accommodation that will arise on foot of decentralisation. I am sure it will hear the call for quality accommodation to be made available to the association, which does such good work for pupils throughout the country.

I, too, thank the delegation for attending. Like some of my colleagues, I have learned a great deal in the past hour or so about dyslexia and what we need to do to improve service provision for children and adults who suffer from the condition. It is very easy for those members of the public who do not have any experience of dyslexia and other learning disabilities to fail to distinguish between them. Deputy Behan summarised the distinctive features of dyslexia very well. While it is a neurological condition, those affected can achieve their full potential.

On some of the specific points and requests made by Ms Bissett, I, like Senator Leyden, feel the best approach is to direct the multi-annual funding appropriately. In general, the provision of tax credits constitutes an untargeted funding mechanism. People do not always claim the credits and allowance to which they are entitled and are forced to endure the associated hassle when they do. I would prefer to see more support given to the Dyslexia Association of Ireland because of its expertise and experience working in this area. It would be best placed to use the resources wisely and invest them in the areas where they are needed. This should be the priority.

It is unsatisfactory that the allocation for 2008, if there is to be any, is not known and that the one for 2007 was announced the day before Christmas. The allocation for the following year should be announced in good time and thus one could make plans. We should address this urgently and achieve clarity on the 2008 position. The association's funding for next year should be given in advance. During the annual Estimates procedures, there should be formal recognition of the funding required, rather than having the Department see what is left over at the end of the year. The current practice is unacceptable and needs to be addressed immediately.

I support Deputy Behan in his call to contact the Minister regarding the multi-annual funding. The current fiscal climate is difficult but an improved package should be made available. The sum in question is very small relative to the funding provided in recent years for disability services and learning supports and resources, particularly at primary level. This is a very small amount of money that would be well targeted through the expertise of the association.

I have a couple of questions on the workshops. Could Ms Bissett say what this involves in terms of the number of hours and sessions a child will benefit from for the average fee of €900? Can dyslexia be definitively diagnosed? I am sure that in some cases a child might have dyslexia along with other learning disabilities, perhaps, and can one distinguish between them? Is it like autism, which is not a continuum? Where there is severe, moderate and mild dyslexia, can the condition be defined in that manner? Does she believe that many children - and adults - are not diagnosed, and how may such people can be brought into the system to avail of diagnosis? That is my concern. We often read about the very high rate of illiteracy in Ireland. Is this because of dyslexia in many cases that has never been identified? I should be interested to have her thoughts on the issue.

Ms Rosie Bissett

On the workshops, the €900 is an average figure. As regards all of our workshops, there can be slight differences between branches, but generally it is a two-hour class one evening a week after school, or occasionally on a Saturday morning. Over the course of the academic year children would normally have, on average, about 24 sessions. That would mean two terms, in effect, one pre-Christmas and the other until April or May. That is what the workshop class will comprise.

That is roughly 48 hours in total.

Ms Rosie Bissett

On average, it is roughly 24 sessions, or 48 hours. Even though €900 a year might sound considerable, when this is broken down into hourly costs, it amounts to about €25 for the two hours. Therefore, it is cost-effective by comparison with what people pay for extra-mural lessons in general. One of the members of our committee said she pays something like €60 per hour for drum lessons for her son. When it is contrasted with the cost of other things, it is competitive. We are a charity and each workshop sets its fees purely to cover the costs it must take into account - rent, expenses, teachers' fees, the numbers of teachers and pupils - and literally keep them as low as possible.

The Deputy asked about the diagnosis of dyslexia. He mentioned a continuum and that is exactly what one has with dyslexia - everything from very mild to very severe and there are cross-continuums, involving other learning difficulties. Some conditions go hand in hand with dyslexia, or sometimes a person might have one primary learning difficulty with some features of another. The common conditions that co-exist are attention deficit disorder, ADD, dyspraxia, which is a motor co-ordination difficulty, speech and language disorder, discalculia, a specific maths difficulty and also Asperger's syndrome, which is at the high functioning end of the autistic spectrum. It really covers a complete continuum, depending on the individual. That is why assessment is so important to establish the profile of each individual and identify what his or her difficulty is. Some people will fit a classic pattern and get a very clear diagnosis. Others might show, on assessment, some features of dyslexia, ADD, dyspraxia and so on, but are not clearly diagnosable as having any single condition, and yet have complex learning needs as a result of the overall learning profiles indicated. Unfortunately, the human brain can be quite complex and varied.

Certainly, a great number of people are not diagnosed. While it is not as bad as years ago, there are still a great number of adults who have not been diagnosed with dyslexia. Some of them may be involved in the general adult literacy field, and are, perhaps, getting help in this area. Others may be too afraid to even broach the subject or address it.

While diagnosis in school has improved a lot, there are still kids going through the system who are not being picked up and slip through the net, as the tests used are not rigorous enough. The screen tests carried out by teachers compare the literacy and numeracy levels of peers but do not examine working memory in detail or measure phonological awareness and so on. If anybody wants to visit our centre in Celbridge and talk to some of the adults, they will find that many of them have negative stories to tell about their experiences in school, where they were put in the corner and presumed to be of low intelligence due to difficulties with reading. The adult literacy services are not specialised when it comes to dyslexia. Most of the adults who come to us have been through the general adult literacy services and experienced the same failures and frustrations that they experienced in school first time around.

Does Ms Bissett know what percentage of the prison population have dyslexia?

Ms Rosie Bissett

Again, there has never been an incident survey done in Ireland. International statistics indicate that at least 50% of any prison population have some literacy difficulty. A good percentage might be due to dyslexia, but there are also high incidences of attention deficit disorders. There are many criss-crossing difficulties, with social disadvantage and so on. As dyslexia is genetic, matters can be compounded. If a parent has undiagnosed dyslexia and left school early with poor literacy skills, his or her employment prospects would have been limited. If his or her child has dyslexia, there are limited means to help that child and it becomes a vicious cycle.

I thank Ms Bissett, Ms Gannon and Ms Ball for attending and making a comprehensive presentation and giving detailed replies. They have educated all of us, even those of us who know something about dyslexia. Given the practical problems they are facing, we will take the road suggested by Deputy Behan. We will make the views expressed known to the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education and Science. The delegates are right in adopting a belt and braces approach to obtaining tax relief or a grant. If they can get either, it will be a way forward. As the Jesuits say, "give them to me young and I will mould them". Having spent a couple of years teaching, I know that the earlier problems are tackled, the better the chance there is of bringing young people along the right road. I thank the delegates for their presentation. I hope we will come back to them with good news in due course but, unfortunately, that will depend on the Minister.

Ms Rosie Bissett

I thank the Chairman and the committee for their support.

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