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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND REFORM debate -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2011

Scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals

Item No. 6 is the scrutiny of EU legislative proposals, COM (2011) 452 and COM (2011) 453. I welcome Mr. Michael Torpey, Mr. Frank Maughan and Mr. Aidan Carrigan from the Department of Finance; and Mr. Dwayne Price and Ms Eida Mullins from the Central Bank. Mr. Kevin Nolan and Mr. Barry Harrington are also in attendance. Mr. Carrigan will make some opening remarks, which we will follow with a question and answer session. I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery that all mobile telephones must be switched off completely.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We had some preliminary discussion of these matters in private session and we have had the benefit of the helpful and comprehensive presentation prepared for us. We have had the opportunity to consider and read it. Rather than going through it line by line, I ask Mr. Carrigan to speak to it for a number of minutes and then take questions. We will publish Mr. Carrigan's document on the website so that it is available as a document from the meeting.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I thank the Chairman and the committee for inviting us to discuss this proposal. The proposal was published earlier this year and is currently subject to negotiation. There has already been considerable negotiation of this instrument, both in preparatory working groups and in Council working groups, where consideration is ongoing. It was considered in great detail at G20 and in Basel III through the Basel committee and at each stage we have been conscious of working with and trying to influence the process so that our interests are represented.

Regarding the CRD legislative framework, there has been a capital requirements directive in place for some time. It was updated in the mid-2000s and further updated as developments in the financial services area occurred, of which there have been many in recent years. This is the third iteration of Basel and the directive is referred to as CRD IV. It is structured slightly differently from other CRD directives in that there is a regulation and a directive. The regulation means that it will have direct effect across the European Union and will become European Union law. The requirements to be met by financial institutions will be equivalent across the European Union. The regulation side is more flexible and focuses on areas of governance and supervision and administrative sanction, where there must be recognition of the wider varying circumstances and environments in member states. In that context, it is structured as part directive and part regulation.

The main objectives of the directive are to implement Basel III, to effect consolidation of previous capital requirement directives and to address some additional supervision and governance arrangements. The main aspects of Basel III, which is being transposed here, are capital requirements. Across the EU, the directive raises the capital requirements to be held by banks against expected losses. This is being raised to a common level across Europe, which is seen as more consistent with requirements based on the experience of the financial crises of recent years. In addition, a capital buffer is provided for. The capital is calculated against risk-rated assets and our Central Bank colleagues can provide more detail on the breakdown of the calculations. On top of the basic capital requirements, there is provision for a capital buffer, which gives room for corrective action to be taken by an institution before it gets down to the bone of breaching its capital requirements, where there are particular difficulties. That buffer is 2.5%.

A second buffer is provided for in CRD, which is a new concept of a countercyclical buffer. The concept is that in times of bubble type growth, a financial institution can be required to increase the buffer in particular areas to try to slow to the expansionary impact of what is going on. That can be further corrected when times are tight by reducing the buffer to allow the banks more flexibility to operate in difficult environments. Within the CRD, they have introduced a liquidity coverage ratio and this recognises a shortfall that was recognised through the financial crisis, that there was no control across Europe on liquidity requirements. We can provide more detail on this. There are also capital requirements for counterparty credit exposures which needed to be addressed. There is also the new concept of leverage ratio. Our experience of the Basel examination has shown us that some banks were over-leveraged. When that was corrected, it had an impact on the ability of these banks to provide credit. It was considered that it was important to try to protect against this happening in the future. The structure of the liquidity requirements and the leverage ratio which are relatively new concepts in bank supervision will necessitate a number of years of observation. After certain requirements are met, there will be a number of years of observation before the final requirement is imposed. We will monitor that observation process and make sure it recognises our needs.

I would like to speak about the supervision regime. Additional provisions are being made in relation to corporate governance. They are focused on the composition of the banks' boards of directors and the range of directorships that can be held by any one person. They also focus on risk management to try to ensure the directors and boards of banks recognise and manage their risks properly. The directive introduces administrative sanctions across the European Union. A significant regime of administrative sanctions has been put in place by the Central Bank. What is being proposed is largely consistent with the regime in place in this country. We are working to deal with any issues that are not consistent. I highlight the additional supervisory powers being provided for. Powers relating to the supervision of the new liquidity regime, in particular, have to be provided for.

There is necessarily a great deal of detail to these changes, over which I have scanned. I have not provided all of the details for the committee. I have highlighted what I see as the innovations and the main matters that arise in the package. I emphasise that, overall, we are reasonably satisfied with the proposal presented by the Commission. It reflects the fact that it has already been the subject of significant analysis and input among member states and industry stakeholders. It has been considered in the European Union and at a wider international level through the Basel and G20 processes. These proposals will require significant changes to the capital positions of European banks. It is important to note that our banks are reasonably well positioned in this respect as a result of the significant capital injections made through the Central Bank's prudential capital assessment review and the liquidity arrangements that resulted from the prudential liquidity assessment review.

The proposed new liquidity requirements will have significant implications for the funding profiles of many European banks. Obviously, they will have a further impact on Irish banks, to some extent. The Central Bank's requirement for significant deleveraging by the Irish banks has gone some way towards meeting the deleveraging and CRD requirements. We are continuing to work with the working committees and groups. As the process proceeds, we will work at a political level. We will work with the European Parliament to ensure the existing proposal can be further refined, where necessary, to enable the Central Bank to fulfil its regulatory functions. We will ensure the impact of the directive will be to provide for the balance and flexibility we consider necessary.

We expect that the Council deliberations will conclude by mid-2012. The target of the European Commission is that the CRD 4 process will be in place by the start of 2013, which is probably a little ambitious. We are working towards achieving that target. After the Council has completed its work, the process will move towards the trialogue stage, when the Council, the Parliament and the Presidency will work together to finalise a directive. The Parliament is working in parallel with the Council. Various contacts with the Council are under way, or will be soon, at rapporteur level.

I have given a broad overview. We will respond to any questions asked and deal with any issues raised.

We appreciate that summary. I emphasise that Mr. Carrigan's comprehensive, detailed and helpful presentation was circulated to members in advance of the meeting and that they have had an opportunity to consider it. We will place it on the website also.

I thank Mr. Carrigan for his presentation. I have a number of questions about the proposal before us. My first question relates to the concern expressed by the IMF that Basel III has not been fully interpreted. There is a suggestion we are applying the minimum requirements as the maximum. I am sure the Department is aware of the IMF's concerns. Where does it stand on the IMF's concerns about weak common standards and the dilution of the capital and liquidity ratio by comparison with what is set out in Basel III? There is a fear that this is a dilution of Basel III and light touch regulation. We know from where that has come. Basel III calls on us to take more stringent measures.

Why does the Department believe this proposal does not breach the principle of subsidiarity? Will Mr. Carrigan outline why the Department differs from the House of Commons ruling that it does breach the principle of subsidiarity? Will he state whether the Department is aware of any other EU member states with the same concern as Britain on this matter?

I would like to mention a concern linked with the issue of subsidiarity. The crisis in Europe is continuing to evolve. Given what has happened in Germany in recent days, I suggest it is about to enter a new phase. I think we will see an acceleration of the crisis and, as a result, a more extreme response whereby more sovereignty will seep into the core. It is mentioned on page 3 of the Department's written submission that the CRD 4 process will remove a number of existing national options and discretions from member states. This was not covered in Mr. Carrigan's oral synopsis of the submission made. Will he list the available national options and discretions in relation to the financial institutions and which we will no longer have if the regulation is passed?

Will Mr. Carrigan give the committee quite a bit of detail on the impact on the Irish banks of the Commission's proposals, as they stand, regarding the CRD 4 directive? Will he provide a similar level of information on the impact of the proposals if they were amended to meet the maximum Basel requirements? If he does not have such details, I would appreciate it if they were circulated to members of this committee at a later stage. In particular, what impact will the regulation, as it stands, have on the capital requirements of the likes of Anglo Irish Bank? How will it affect the two liquidity requirements - the 30-day requirement and one year requirement? What effect will it have on all the other banks supported by the State?

Mr. Carrigan mentioned that "the proposed new liquidity requirements will have significant implications for the funding profiles of many European banks." That applies to Irish banks also. What will the implications be? What will be their cost? How will the banks supported by the State meet them? Can the details of the answer to that question be expressed in figures rather than words, if possible?

I have two other questions, the first of which relates to credit unions. Mr. Carrigan can steer me in the right direction if I go off on th wrong tangent. What impact will the proposals have on the credit requirements to be met by the credit union movement? Have any of the departmental officials consulted the Commission on Credit Unions as part of their discussions on the regulation or directive? What is the commission's opinion?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I will respond to what the Deputy said about the international debate on this matter, including the debate in the United Kingdom. Probably one of the biggest differences in the debate at Council level is that between Basel and the CRD which focuses on maximum harmonisation rather than minimum harmonisation. Maximum harmonisation means that this regulation will set a maximum level of capital to be retained, and individual countries will not be allowed require higher levels beyond that.

I need clarification on this point. The Irish State requires banks to have a large capital ratio or tier one capital ratio. Does this mean that we will not have the power to legislate for it but we can still require it through using our influence by other means?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I will get to that. There is room for some flexibility. It will set a maximum level across Europe. It will be 8%, with a 2.5% buffer above it. The European Commission argues strongly that this is essential to give legal and investment certainty across Europe, so that we can have consistency across Europe. It would also argue that it is important to ensure we do not have regulatory arbitrage whereby financial institutions move from one country to another, and one country is in difficulty and is trying to upgrade its capital levels. The Commission would also argue that this is important for financial stability reasons and that the consistency underpins stability within Europe.

A group of countries disagreed with the European Commission's view on this. They argue that capital requirement is an issue where national states should be allowed to determine their needs, based on their particular interests. This is being championed by the UK, Sweden and a few other countries. For example, the Vickers report in the UK has already set higher capital levels than those set here, and the British Government is arguing that it should be free to maintain higher capital levels.

We have consulted industry in this country on this issue, through the IFSC Clearing House Group, the Irish Banking Federation and the various other banking groups. Nobody has yet told us that it will cause major problems for the State. The view is that the IFSC group would not be unhappy with a standard across Europe within which it can work. Our own view on our domestic banks is that in addition to that requirement for consistency, there should also be flexibility. There is flexibility in respect of the counter-cyclical capital requirement, which allows supervised central banks to increase the capital requirements depending on the circumstances. There is a provision under Pillar II of the directive which provides flexibility to national authorities to intervene in particular institutions, where there are particular risks identified. Between the counter-cyclical flexibility and the Pillar II flexibilities, we feel that there is probably sufficient flexibility to allow us deal with any situation that might arise which requires flexibility in capital requirements.

The position at working party level in Europe is that this debate is still a live one. We do not have a strong input to this debate because our industry and supervisor are not flagging particular difficulties. Arising from the debate, I think there will probably be some further change in this area. We are open to seeing what that change is and to working around any compromise. From a national point of view, we are as well off not to be taking a hard position at this stage until we see how the issue pans out.

The Deputy spoke about the impact of CRD IV on Anglo Irish Bank and mentioned the number of national options that are being ruled out. Perhaps somebody from the Central Bank can comment on this.

Ms Eida Mullins

There are currently 155 national options and discretions. That number has been reduced to about 20 in CRD IV. The discretions have not gone. Most of them have been changed into credit institution discretions, but with stricter criteria. In other words, if a bank wants to get a more lenient proposal across, it has to comply with conditions which are much more strict than currently existing conditions. Discretions have been retained in areas such as real estate. As a regulator, we still have the discretion to increase the risk rates on real estate and this was one of the points made by the Commission on the maximum harmonisation debate. It has retained discretions for member states to increase the requirements. Real estate is probably one of the more important discretions.

Ms Mullins said that our 155 discretions will be reduced to 20, but the remaining 135 are still there, but stricter. Can she explain that again to me?

Ms Eida Mullins

Some of them will have gone altogether. In some of the surveys carried out by the Commission, it found that some of the discretions were not actually used at all. The Commission asked member states about how they applied the discretions, and if it was discovered that some of the discretions were not used at all, they would have been taken out of the CRD. The Commission took a more strict interpretation of other discretions, so even though they will still be in the CRD, there will be no discretion for member states to be more lenient. The third set of discretions will have been moved from being a member state discretion onto the bank, so the bank can decide whether it takes that discretion on board or not. This will be subject to stricter conditions.

Therefore, 135 State discretions will be gone as a result of this directive.

Ms Eida Mullins

Yes. It is all in keeping with the single rule book.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I think "gone" is overstating it. They will have to operate within a tighter basis within the rule book, but supervision will still be required. It is not just a matter of wiping out certain discretions. National supervision will still need to be implemented.

The CRD directives do not apply to the credit union movement, which is specifically exempt. There is a provision in the directives to exempt certain organisations. Credit unions have a completely different capital structure from banks, so we are retaining the credit union exemption in CRD IV.

What does this mean for the covered institutions - those that have required State support - for capital requirements and liquidity requirements?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

As far as the Irish credit institutions are concerned and as a consequence of the upheaval we have been through, the PCAR requirements currently in place have very much anticipated what will be coming down the line through CRD IV. As far as we are concerned, it will not have any major impact on the State that has not been foreseen in our current arrangements.

Mr. Dwayne Price

In our financial measures programme report, on the back of the PCAR and PLAR in March, we provided an estimate on our consideration of Basel III. One of the big issues for any regulator is that there is such a long lead-in time, so the implementation schedule is over a large number of years. We made some estimates as part of our PCAR, albeit on current CRD rules, for the covered banks that were subject to that stress test. We stated that the combined surplus to the minimum phase in common equity tier one - the new level of capital required under Basel III - under our PCAR base case scenario is estimated at €13.3 billion. That was a surplus above the new minimum requirements by end 2013, as per our forecasts. The surplus is €3.7 billion under the stress case.

One of the other issues raised by the Deputy was about the impact of the liquidity ratios on the banks themselves. We talk about it being a significant impact because Basel II and, by extension, the capital requirements directive, CRD, had no real oversight of liquidity requirements, so it is a sea change in terms of European regulatory architecture to have liquidity rules in place. In addition, they have a significant impact on the likely balance sheet structure of banks across Europe. It will require them to hold significant banks of liquid assets and also to have a net stable funding ratio. It is that evolution of banks' balance sheets to meet those requirements, which has been given a long lead-in time and that we call a significant change.

With regard to the Irish banks and particularly the covered banks, the covered banks are subject to the PLAR, prudential liquidity assessment review, the 1% to 2.5% loan to deposit ratio which is being used to right-size the banks' balance sheets by the end of 2013. We see that as something that will put the covered institutions and the pillar banks on a path to compliance with Basel III which, as I said, will have full implementation by 2019.

For Anglo Irish Bank, which was not under the PCAR, what implications would it have in terms of liquidity and capital ratio?

Mr. Dwayne Price

Anglo Irish Bank is subject to the minimum capital requirements under the CRD and there has been no estimation, as far as I am aware, of what the impact would be on its balance sheet, for example, under the liquidity coverage ratio, LCR, or the net stable funding ratio, NSFR. We have concentrated in our public statements on the covered institutions and the pillar banks.

To what extent would it even have any application to Anglo Irish Bank?

If it is in wind-down-----

Anglo Irish Bank's wind-down-----

If it is in a different mode.

It does not apply. Anglo Irish Bank is literally promissory notes and emergency liquidity assistance, ELA. That is all it is.

Could I start with a request that people stop using acronyms, please?

Or at least give out an explanation with them.

Yes, once they explain it. I think Mr. Price has answered some of my questions, but maybe he could come at them a little differently. Just before he arrived, we were discussing briefly the high level of capital that our recapitalised banks are carrying at the moment and saying that this may or may not endure. Is any scenario envisaged in which we will again have to recapitalise banks? That is my main question.

I was surprised at the comment, although maybe I misunderstood it, that Irish banks were never required to hold liquidity ratios before. Was it that it was just not a European requirement? I am not sure. In any event, now that we will have to have them under legislation, what impact will that have on the lending capacity of the banks? Generally speaking, what impact will the capital requirements, the capital buffer and the liquidity ratios have on the lending capacity of banks?

With regard to the Irish situation, separate from what Europe may be doing or what Basel is contemplating, we were talking about bringing in legislation with more robust requirements in terms of ratios. Is this more robust, or less robust? The other thing we were talking about, which the witnesses partly covered, is the rationale for a maximum limit. This has been covered in terms of being to do with competition. Some countries might be looking for higher credit ratings or something like that. From our point of view, the worry is whether we can meet the requirements.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

On the first point, we have been through an extensive process of independently setting capital requirements for the banks. This was done by BlackRock Solutions, working for the Central Bank. These have been recognised around Europe as setting fair and reasonable levels of capital to deal with any anticipated losses and to examine based on anticipated losses. The Central Bank might want to comment further on this, but we are reasonably confident that the capital that has been provided will see us through any losses that do arise over the next few years. We are capitalised to deal with extensive stress levels and we should be able to meet the CRD capital requirements.

With regard to liquidity, the Central Bank has been operating liquidity guidelines and has been supervising the banks on these requirements, so it is not a vacuum that is suddenly being filled, but it is now being incorporated into legislation, which is a change in that area.

What are the implications for lending?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Where banks have to provide further substantial amounts of capital, it may to some extent inhibit their ability to lend but we have already absorbed it in providing for the capital in the future so I do not see this as having a major impact. Even within the structure of this measure, there are provisions for risk weighting for small and medium enterprise lending to make sure that if banks increase the level of lending to the SME sector, it will not actually have an impact on their capital requirements. That is, they will be able to do it without requiring substantially higher capital because balancing is provided for to facilitate continued lending to the SME sector.

Why is that? Is it because it is desirable?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Across Europe, the need to lend to small and medium-sized businesses-----

Business investment is different from borrowing for my holidays.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

-----has been seen as essential so a preferential risk weighting is applied to protect that kind of lending in the banking system.

The European Commission did a comprehensive impact assessment on this measure and whereas industry had initially made soundings about a substantial impact on its lending, the outcome of the assessment was that it would not be in any way of the scale that people have been talking about. We do not have figures for the future, but the European Commission's conclusion was that there would not be a major impact on lending. The European Commission also points out that the directive is structured in such a way that it will be implemented over a number of years, which will give credit institutions time to adjust to the new requirements without having a sudden impact.

So there is not a 1 January deadline or anything like that.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

As I said, if we transpose the directive by the start of 2013, the capital requirements can be built up over the two years to 2015. Requirements will be set with regard to the liquidity and leverage ratios and there will be periods for observation and correction, so it will be 2015 to 2019 before there is an impact, and it will be gradual.

There was talk of legislation in Ireland to introduce more robust requirements. Does this supersede that?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Which more robust requirements?

I assumed it was capital ratios and liquidity ratios.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

The regulation will apply directly, but the directive needs to be transposed through Irish legislation and statutory instruments. What we have highlighted in our covering note is that much consolidation of existing legislation is taking place in that context and we will be using that transposition opportunity to consolidate a lot of capital requirement instruments in legislation.

Is there any conflict between what we were planning to do and what is in this proposal?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

No. They are fairly consistent.

Can the witnesses distinguish between the elements of what they have described that are in the regulation and those that are in the directive? One, if it is agreed, will be directly enforced, while the other will have to be transposed into law, taking into account national circumstances. Which parts will be in the regulation and which are in the directive? If Ireland says "No" to this on subsidiarity grounds or any other grounds, what regulations will pertain with regard to matters such as capital ratios, liquidity ratios and so on?

Will the witnesses refer to the status quo which pertained in these areas prior to the crisis and which, it is believed, failed or was inadequate to deal with the crisis? Is it fair to characterise the position in this way? Is this seen as a comprehensive effort to deal with the regulation of banks and their behaviour, activity and so on or is there more to it? It strikes me that if this is it, then the proposal is grossly inadequate. It is not sufficient simply to discuss capital ratios and the elements of governance referred to. They are moving in a somewhat more onerous direction in terms of regulation but what is the thinking behind this? It seems to be considerably short of the mark in terms of identifying what the banks did wrong. It was not simply a problem with their capital and liquidity ratios or that directors were on multiple boards and, therefore, not focused. Is this the extent of the analysis within the European Council about what was wrong with the banking system?

What is the delegation's opinion about the divergence between the two camps on this question? It appears those in one camp are seeking more onerous requirements in terms of capital and liquidity ratios, etc. and they believe those in the other Franco-German camp are diluting these requirements. What does the delegation believe to be at the bottom of this divergence?

I am no expert in these matters but is it the case that we are caught on the horns of a dilemma, that is to say, if one imposes excessively onerous capital or liquidity requirements on the banks, it retards their willingness or ability to lend? Is this connected in terms of examining our domestic problems at the moment? The banks have been recapitalised but they are reluctant to lend or to write down mortgage arrears and debt and this is having a significant dampening effect on the economy. They are reluctant to do this is because they believe that the key priority for banks is to maintain sufficiently high capital ratios. The point is that if one places excessively onerous requirements on the banks, then one limits the willingness, inclination or ability of those banks to lend into the economy with significant resulting macroeconomic effects. On the other hand, if one does not do this, then one is running the danger of banks running riot again and creating bubbles. I am keen to hear the views of the witnesses on this point.

To my mind, the witnesses have suggested that the proposed buffers are buffers against bubbles and bubble circumstances. This is concerning because it implies that we accept that bubbles will occur and that we will not address the circumstances that lead to bubbles. Instead, we will simply place certain requirements on banks to ensure they do not crash with resulting consequences for us. Is it not the case that it is the behaviour of banks that lead to bubbles? Is this not the lesson we must draw from what has happened? Should we not address the behaviour of banks which lent excessively into particular profitable areas purely because they believed they could make money in such areas as property or whatever? That is what led us into this mess but it seems there is nothing envisaged in terms of requiring banks to lend on a rational basis.

My question relates to another question I have raised several times in the Dáil and which is beginning to be debated somewhat but on which there appear to be no moves, that is, the mandate of banks and central banks. In 2009 the European Central Bank issued guidelines on bank rescues. It stated categorically that in so far as states had to intervene in the banking system to rescue banks, they must do so in a way that absolutely does not divert banks from the goal of profit maximisation towards other goals, whether social or macroeconomic. This seems an extraordinary policy for the ECB to hold in a situation in which profit maximisation led to the mess and the bubble in the first place and, arguably, this imperative is the problem now in terms of banks' unwillingness to lend-----

These are interesting political questions which you are pointing to and they are entirely relevant, but there is some limitation to what our witnesses can deal with in terms of the questions. There are important broader conceptual political issues but the witnesses are somewhat confined in terms of what they can address and I trust the Deputy will appreciate that.

I am simply trying to understand whether this is it and whether the witnesses are considering these other issues. The only points the witnesses mentioned specifically on governance issues relate to people being on boards of directors and there is some mention of remuneration. Will the delegation elaborate on what is at issue? Is there anything related to bonuses? Is there any proposal to ban the use of bonuses in banks - this is necessary in my view - given the remarkably damaging effect that the bonus culture has had in respect of reckless lending? Has this been dealt with in any way or is it envisaged here or elsewhere?

I will call Deputy Mathews presently. We will flag these interesting questions and then come back in at the end.

My thanks to all the visitors for coming in today. Anything that moves towards well-placed and well-thought out regulation of the banking system in a country and within a country in the context of Europe is a good idea. This is against a background of a total collapse, failure and meltdown in our country. I refer to some of the points mentioned earlier such as the capital ratios and the liquidity ratios of banks. It is not simply a matter of liquidity; the loan-to-deposit ratio is relevant as well and the liquidity ratio is a lesser sub-set of it. In 2008 and 2009, the six Irish-owned institutions had an average loan-to-deposit ratio of more than 165% on the balance sheets which I examined at the time. They varied from a low of approximately 150% to a high of 320% in the case of Irish Life & Permanent.

This beggars belief in terms of the ability of any of the boards of management to understand the prudential and custodial responsibilities of the balance sheets of their institutions. This point has not been brought out in the discussion. There have been diversions in various directions and in the three reports produced in the past 12 to 15 months. Essentially, banking is not complicated and the public and those in political life deserve to be reminded of the fundamentals of banking and why they went so wrong. In banking, one creates assets from deposits and capital. These are the funds of the banks used to create loan assets throughout sectors of the economy. All the principles that should have been applied to the prudential growth and expansion of the bank were thrown to the winds.

That the historical loan to deposit ratios were so bad immediately puts those who were on the boards of the banks in the dock to explain why. That was not fully done and it begs the question of the probity and good governance of the banks dealt with in regulations and directives. It puts the spotlight on the boards, on individual members and collectively, and those appointed subsequent to the collapse.

When I hear that the banks are now over-capitalised, following the report of BlackRock, Barclays and Boston Consulting, I get mental blisters. The capital put into the banks as a result of that exercise will be depleted following the recognition of the losses incurred. It is disingenuous, therefore, to tell the public, even in political circles, that the banks are well capitalise. That is not true when it is known that losses are coming down the tracks and it is a matter of when they will be recognised.

it is not fair to use jargon with which citizens are not familiar to make this a complicated and abstruse issue, to which the public should not go and on which they should trust us. It is very simple. People know what piggy banks and loans are and information should be translated and made easily understood. To say, as was said in the past few months, that we are aiming to have loan to deposit ratios of 122% is incorrect. It is not sufficient. HSBC in the United Kingdom had levels of 90% or thereabouts before the crash and that is why it survived, notwithstanding the fact that the quality of its assets was not good. Some of the big banks in Europe such as Deutsche Bank, Société Générale and Crédit Agricole have alarming ratios leveraging up to 72 times what other banks have. People are not being honest. When we say we are at a figure of 20% in terms of the capitalisation of the banks, it is like saying 20 units of blood have been given, ignoring the fact that the wound is still bleeding. When the negatives are taken out, the expected injection figure needed to stabilise is about 10%.

It is a good idea that core capital indicators are required as a minimum and that, in addition, there will be a buffer against expected losses in a normal environment. Furthermore, there will be cyclical buffers. This is not something new discovered by high powered individuals, rather they were in the prudential lending guidelines for over 100 years but were abandoned. The public deserves to know this.

I ask the Deputy to address the representatives on the measure we would like to see passed.

I appreciate there is a rehabilitation process under way. Various parts of Irish society are recovering and trying to get fitter, become leaner and better at what they do, which I appreciate. At the time of recapitalisation, when the figures were revealed on 31 March by BlackRock, as the lead consultant, they were watered down. I was not happy with this. The figure for loan losses in our system is about €100 billion. If there was to be a turbo charged lending burst in an economy the size of Ireland involving a figure of €200 billion over four years, half of it would not be recovered. Based on visits made in person and telephone calls I have received from private individuals, professional firms, businesses and property investors - many of whom were prudential - I am aware that the level of debt is unbelievable. A recalibration will be required, as otherwise we will lose a decade, if not two, as happened in Japan.

I ask the Deputy to speak to the matters under discussion.

My question is important. When recapitalisation took place to tick a box at the end of July, it was done predominantly by dipping into the National Pensions Reserve Fund, our last tank of financial reserves, instead of insisting on credit capitalisation, as would have occurred in any corporate environment. I was disappointed in that regard. Did the Central Bank give advice to the Cabinet or the Department of Finance on how the banks should be recapitalised, rather than on the quantum required? In particular, in the case of Bank of Ireland, did the Central Bank express any views, make any comments or give any advice on the arrival of a quintet of investors with a little over €1 billion to invest? As we await the results in respect of the non-redemption of subordinated debt of €350 million, the State's holding has reduced from approximately 50% to 15%, a loss of 35%.

The Deputy is asking questions but we are discussing particular measures to which we need to confine our discussion.

I am glad to encourage all members of the Central Bank and the Department to do everything they can to sand-blast the banks at board level, clarify the picture and explain it in Ann and Barry terms, as I have tried to do in my explanation on loans and deposits. Good lending principles mean that if a bank takes in €100 in deposits, it lends €90 and puts the remaining €10 into it cash reserves. That is a simple principle. This can be changed little, but the process involved in interbank lending is essentially the same as that for a household, with a small overdraft for up and down financing.

Before Mr. Carrigan replies, I have two very brief questions. I am still somewhat intrigued by the rationale for setting a maximum figure. I understand the Franco-German side of the argument has concerns about its competitive position internationally vis-à-vis Japan and the United States. Presumably, that is what is motivating its concern. Is that their rationale for holding out for a maximum figure and resisting pressure from the United Kingdom to allow or insist on higher requirements?

My next question is more prosaic. Mr. Carrigan mentioned the IFSC. He had some understanding of its position in respect of a maximum figure. As a committee, we are charged with scrutinising these measures and will have further meetings to that end. Are there any other organisations or interests of which he is aware or with which he has come in contact, with the Department or the bank, from which the committee would be well advised to hear? If he does not wish to engage on that issue, that is fine, but we would appreciate his advice in order that we can have a comprehensive picture. I ask him to start with Deputy Boyd Barrett's questions.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I thank the Chairman and welcome the constructive comments made by members. Their interest and support are appreciated.

There are five main issues arising from Deputy Boyd Barrett's questions, on which I will try to touch. The Deputy asked for clarification on the directive requirement as against the requirement for a regulation. I will provide this table of information to the committee because it is helpful. Detailed and highly prescriptive provisions are for calculating the capital requirements and they take the form of a regulation that applies directly. How the risk-rated assets and the capital requirements are calculated, how liquidity and credit counter-party risk are calculated, how leverage ratios are calculated, are now being set in directly applicable regulations with a view to being applied across Europe on a consistent basis. This is important for comparison and fairness purposes.

The directive areas are where the degree of prescription is lower and where there is greater need to take account of the links with national administrative laws. These might be in areas such as the powers and responsibility of the supervisory authorities, the rules governing authorisation, supervision, capital buffers where we have said flexibility is required, how sanctions will apply and issues such as internal risk management arrangements and the application of company law within states. This means there is a need for a national flexibility to deal with those kind of issues and they are therefore being prescribed by directive which we will transpose into national law. The Commission in its publications issued a very helpful table and we will circulate it to the members of the committee.

Can this table be placed on the website?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Yes, we can place it on the website.

This is only one of a comprehensive range of measures being taken at a national and international level to deal with the shortcomings that had been seen as contributing to the problems in 2007 to 2008. As of now, this revision is taking place world-wide by means of Basel and G20 co-operation which are now being translated through to European Union law. Complementary to this, there is in the region of 20 other EU directives or regulations which are at different stages of negotiation and which are coming through as a package of financial services measures to improve the context in which financial services operate and to improve the protection, safety and supervision of financial services across Europe.

On a domestic basis, we have restructured our whole supervisory architecture with the new Central Bank Commission arrangements. A Bill is currently before the House providing new supervisory and oversight powers to the Central Bank. This is the second Bill as a Central Bank Bill went through the Oireachtas at the end of last year. We have brought in resolution legislation to deal with that part of our architecture. The whole area of consolidation of financial legislation and the oversight of the supervisory arrangements is under constant review. This is a very important part of the overall architecture but it is only one part of the comprehensive architectural changes taking place.

I have a note of a question about the extent of governance. Deputy Boyd Barrett asked if there was more to governance than just the directors. The governance arrangements within the CRD are focused on the area of risk and in improving the risk identification issues, the kind of issues to which Deputy Mathews referred, the need for risk structures to identify those risks at an early stage and to bring them to directors' level. I can provide a more detailed note for the committee.

I asked what, in Mr. Carrigan's opinion, was behind the divergence between the Franco-German axis and the IMF on the question of capital ratios.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Is the Deputy's question on the point we are dealing with just now? I was going to deal with that question along with the Chairman's comment.

I will make a comment which may be helpful. It is a question observation really. This country has had what was a directors' club for banks, if we use the colloquial language. This has been a tradition particularly in recent years. Would it not be helpful to insist that the boards of banks be made up of people who understand and have had experience of the banking business, particularly in the area of restructuring and collections? I think risk can be anticipated better by people with experience of clearing up where risks went bad?

Mr. Carrigan may continue.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

To return to the comments I was going to make on risks, what the CRD will provide for as regards governance is that directors of bank boards and their role in risk, oversight and strategy, will have to be much more effective and banks will have to build the independence and status of their risk management function. All of this will be subject to supervision by the national supervisory authorities. These measures are particularly focused on avoiding excessive risk-taking by credit institutions and it is a key part of the issue.

I refer to page 21 of the directive booklet, paragraphs 47 and 48.

Ms Eida Mullins

As regards what is in the CRD and corporate governance, the corporate governance code was issued by the Central Bank last year. This is quite a comprehensive code for banks and insurance companies, which deals specifically with the board and who we expect to be on the board, the number of directorships they hold, the level of experience required. There are also requirements regarding the nomination committee, the audit committee and the risk committee. We introduced those requirements last year as a result of the crisis.

As regards CRD IV, it does not deal as comprehensively as our code but it refers to the risk management committee and expectations as to membership and the level of experience of such persons. There are also requirements with regard to nomination and remuneration. If I may deal with the point raised by Deputy Boyd Barrett about remuneration, Article 90 of the CRD deals specifically with variable remuneration which is the bonuses. It is quite a lengthy article with 15 paragraphs and it sets out requirements regarding the variable remuneration, the percentage that should be deferred, whether it should be paid out in cash or in shares. It is quite an extensive article dealing with bonuses.

Through the Chair, as regards-----

No, Deputy.

On board appointments-----

No, Deputy, please, I am in the Chair. It is now 4.45 p.m. Unless it is a clear question.

I am going to ask the question my mother asked me a few months ago. Following the appointment to the board of the Central Bank of five members of the board-----

I am sorry, Deputy. I said it must be a question directly related to the measures before us.

It is about governance and the appointment to boards of the Central Bank or any bank.

No, Deputy, we are not debating it. We have had the Governor here before and also the Financial Regulator and these are important issues which we debated with both of those gentlemen and they will be here again. I want to confine this discussion. We have to be disciplined in how we do things, Deputy. Please ask a question specifically on what these two measures contain, or something you think they ought to contain which they do not contain.

Well, as regards the appointments, who proposes each name, who seconds each name and who evaluates the probity of the people to be appointed? Who makes the decision and who makes the final decision?

That is not something contemplated by these two measures at all.

However, they are the best questions to ask.

It is more than a good question; it is an excellent question. However, it is not part of the agenda for this meeting.

Perhaps we have the wrong agenda.

No, we have exactly the right agenda. We are dealing with two EU legislative proposals, as Deputy Mathews knows perfectly well. We are seeking to expand our knowledge of these measures to determine whether they offend the principles of subsidiarity, on which we will report.

May I ask Mr. Carrigan whether he thinks the questions are relevant?

With all due respect to him, it is not a matter for Mr. Carrigan to decide whether the questions are relevant. That is for the Chair to decide. I invite Mr. Carrigan to continue with his replies.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Before dealing with the maximum harmonisation issue, Deputy Boyd Barrett asked about lending. The Government has made various policy statements in regard to the priority it has placed on ensuring consistency of lending and that institutions' efforts to meet capital requirements do not unnecessarily inhibit lending. The Government is taking considerable steps in this regard, including through the recapitalisation of the banks, ensuring that up to €30 billion is available over the next three years for lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. The Credit Review Office is in place to provide a means of recourse for SMEs which experience problems in securing loans. In addition, there are various initiatives in regard to start-ups, seed capital and so on.

The Government is fully committed to supporting lending into the economy. The advice we have from the Central Bank is that the funding being made available to small and medium-sized enterprises is of a scale that should meet any anticipated demand in the coming years. Again, this is slightly separate from the directives we are discussing.

Yes. I allowed a degree of latitude earlier, but it is now 4.40 p.m. and there are any number of questions which occur to me in regard to lending to SMEs, what the Central Bank is doing about it and so on. We could be here until midnight if we wished. Therefore, I am making a ruling, notwithstanding the latitude I have allowed thus far, that there will be no further latitude. As such, I ask both members and our respected guests to confine the discussion, within reason, to the measures before us today.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

Several Deputies raised the maximum harmonisation issue. We do not accept that there is any issue in terms of different blocs with different points of view. There are different states with different views feeding into a debate at European level, but there are no consistent blocs. We are working with those states to ascertain their views. We are keeping our position open pending further developments.

In regard to setting the maximum harmonisation, the European Commission has issued a short note which is helpful in setting out its position:

The EU in general and the euro area in particular have a very high degree of financial and monetary integration. Decisions on the level of capital requirement therefore need to be taken for the Single Market as a whole, as the impact of such requirements is felt by all member states. Financial stability can only be achieved by the EU acting together, not by each member state on its own. For example, if EU capital requirements are set too low an individual member state cannot escape risks to financial stability by simply increasing requirements for its own institutions. Unless other member states follow suit, foreign institutions' branches can continue to import risk. Higher levels of capital requirements in one state would also distort competition and encourage regulatory arbitrage. For example, institutions could be encouraged to concentrate risky activities in member states which only implement the minimum requirements. Therefore, we [the Commission] need to set the level of capital at a level that is appropriate for the EU as a whole. That is why the minimum capital requirements cannot be increased by national authorities under the particular proposal.

That is the Commission's stated view.

We can identify with the Commission's objective of legal and investor certainty across Europe and with its view of the need to support financial stability and restrict regulatory arbitrage. However, various states have voiced valid concerns in regard to their flexibility to respond to particular national issues. There is some flexibility in the context of the counter-cyclical buffer and in the context of pillar two provisions, whereby national supervisors can deal with particular institutions and increase requirements there. We are engaged with the debate and are waiting to see what emerges from it.

We may well express a view on that when we look at the matter. Are there any other issues arising?

The Deputy should ensure his question is specific to the proposals we are discussing.

I ask the Chairman not to pre-empt what I will say.

I am obliged to do so because there has been a tendency for colleagues to stray from the matters before us. I am asking members to refrain from doing so.

I am not trying to stray form the issues at hand. Rather, I am trying to understand what these proposals are about. I asked questions; I did not make statements.

I did not claim that the Deputy made statements. I referred to members - not just Deputy Boyd Barrett - having a tendency to stray beyond the agenda, namely, the two measures before us.

I am trying to understand the measures.

If the Deputy has another question on the measures, I ask that he be specific in putting it to the delegates. He had an opportunity to put his questions earlier. Nevertheless, even though we are coming to a conclusion, he may ask a supplementary question on this specific issue.

I will decide what questions I ask.

I will rule whether or not they are relevant, and the Deputy will abide by the rulings of the Chair. That is the only way in which we can process business.

The Chairman is way out of order. I am trying to understand what is being proposed here. The bulk of it is to do with capital ratios and liquidity ratios, but there are also governance issues. I am seeking to clarify why it is only these two elements which are set out in the directives. Mr. Carrigan referred to other measures, which is presumably a reference to some of the other proposals we will discuss in the future, as set out in this document.

It contains a list of directives and measures on a range of topics.

Yes. Specifically in regard to banks, I am not familiar with what was discussed and agreed at Basel. My question is whether what is contained in these proposals is the sum total of what is proposed in regard to the regulation of banks. It seems somewhat random to confine the proposal to liquidity and capital ratios and governance issues. I am aware there is an ongoing debate on all the other aspects of the crisis, why it happened and so on. I am not suggesting those issues should be included in these measures, but I am trying to understand the parameters within which they apply. There seems to be a random focus on governance issues, including some reference to bonuses, and capital ratios. Does this reflect a view that these are the only areas in which there is a problem with the banks?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

In regard to bonuses, the previous iteration of the capital requirements directive in 2009, the CRD 3, set out measures to control bonuses and remuneration within the banking sector. That is all carrying through to the current iteration, the CRD 4 directive, which consolidates all of the existing architecture. Bonuses were dealt with some years ago and there are structures in place which limit them.

As I indicated, this is one of an entire suite of arrangements at international level and at national level. It is particularly focused on the prudential requirements around banking structures in order to reduce the risk of future difficulties in the sector. There are equivalent measures in regard to insurance, investment funds, pension issues, consumer protection and so on. There is a suite of legislative measures.

Mr. Dwayne Price

These proposals are firmly in the space of what we would call the regulatory side. They set down common rules applicable across Europe in terms of how to calculate, first, what capital an institution needs to hold and, after that, the minimum levels of that capital. The same applies in respect of liquidity. CRD 4, as we are discussing here, builds on the existing rule book by making it more conservative in terms of higher capital requirements on banks. It also adds in some of the issues the Deputy identified.

Separate from that there is the whole sphere of supervision. That is not within these parameters. However, the Governor and Deputy Governor have attended this committee previously and have talked about more intensive and intrusive supervision. It is firmly in that area.

I think it would be of assistance to all of us if we had a short paper which would pull together all the measures that are on the stocks or imminent at European level. I will not ask the Department of Finance to provide that. I will ask the committee secretariat to pull together those measures and to give a very short description of each measure. We would be then able to see, on a page or two, what is coming and what is currently alive on this agenda. Would that be helpful?

It would give us a helicopter view.

Exactly.

May I ask a question about regulation and about the extent and depth of audit and the levels of testing? There was a great vacuum across the banking sector in the past seven or eight years with regard to the usefulness of auditing. Was there an overall sense of issues like loans to deposit ratios? Were they flagged as something that was causing the banking sector to drive too fast without brakes on windy mountain roads? There is no point in auditors simply doing blind donkey testing in the traditional sense if they are missing the big picture of engineering fault lines in the balance sheets of banks.

Mr. Frank Maughan

I am sure the Deputy is aware that the Commission has consulted on changes to the regime for audit firms at EU level. There was a Green Paper this year and we understand the Commission is proposing to publish legislative proposals before the end of this year to further regulate audit firms. The Commission recognises the deficiencies identified in the financial crisis.

Domestically, we are also aware that the main industry body, Chartered Accountants Ireland, has been engaged in a long consultative process to look at the role of auditors, particularly with regard to the financial sector. Those processes are running in parallel. We can expect developments there shortly.

Did any particular person or representative organisation raise a flag regarding these issues? Would it be useful for this committee to hear from any such people or organisations? You mentioned, Mr. Carrigan, the International Financial Services Centre, IFSC. I am not holding you to any particular list. I simply ask if you could flag for the committee any organisations about which it might be useful for us to hear.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

As with any European instrument, the Department will consult with the main bodies. We have briefed the industry representative bodies regarding developments here. Our understanding is that no crisis issues are being flagged for us by these bodies. I am not sure if there would be any benefit for the committee in meeting them. The committee could meet the Irish Banking Federation or a representative group from the IFSC.

Chartered Accountants Ireland should be asked to attend the committee.

I thank the witnesses for flagging that matter and for attending this afternoon's meeting. Your presentation was most useful and comprehensive. Questions came thick and fast and were dealt with very helpfully. Thank you for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 November 2011.
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