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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND REFORM debate -
Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012

ELA Funding and IBRC Promissory Notes: Discussion with Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland

Today's meeting is to discuss emergency liquidity assistance, ELA, funding and the repayment of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, promissory notes. We are joined by Professor Patrick Honohan, Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland, and Mr. Maurice McGuire, director of financial operations at the bank. The format of the meeting is that we will have an opening statement by the Governor, followed by statements and questions from representatives of the groupings represented on the committee, namely, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, the Labour Party and the Technical Group. The Governor will have an opportunity to reply to members, after which the committee will go into private session for further discussion. I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery that all mobile phones must be switched off completely to avoid interference with the sound production.

I advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are only entitled to qualified privilege thereafter in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected to the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Governor is very welcome and I invite him to make his opening statement.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Although I will need to take great care in my statement to protect the financial interests of the State in view of the discussions taking place, recognising the interest and concern of the joint committee to understand the various issues surrounding the promissory notes, in respect of which a scheduled amortisation payment falls due to be made next week, I will be glad to provide as clear an account of the matter as I can.

The promissory notes owned by the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, are part of the legacy of the banking crisis. They represent just one aspect of a large and complex structure of institutional indebtedness involving the Government, the banks and the central bank system which has resulted from the crisis. Although some commentators have tended to exaggerate the extent to which the tax increases and spending cutbacks which have taken place to date in Ireland can be attributed to the banking debt, this debt hangs over the economic and financial recovery of Ireland and, as is generally agreed, needs to be set on a more secure basis.

The promissory notes were provided by the Minister for Finance, using powers granted to him by the Oireachtas under the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008, as a way of ensuring the compliance of Anglo Irish Bank and the Irish Nationwide Building Society, that is, the precursor institutions of the IBRC, with the capital requirements directives. This became necessary as a result of the losses entailed in the prices announced in March 2010 and the following months for the various tranches of NAMA purchases. The pace of the annual cash payment stream provided for in the notes was from the outset structured, perhaps somewhat arbitrarily, as one tenth of the value of the note to be paid on March 31 each year, with the total duration of the payment stream being set to ensure the capital requirements were met. The notes were reset on several occasions during 2010 to reflect the progressive crystallisation of losses. Interest on the value of the notes was included at the yield required by the market on Irish Government securities of comparable maturity at the time of issue of the notes. It is relevant to note the spread on ten year Irish Government securities above the securities of the federal German Government was only about 125 basis points immediately after the end-March 2010 PCAR announcement that made it clear - to anyone who still doubted it - that extremely large banking losses would be incurred by the banks in the NAMA purchases. Clearly, the cost of refinancing the amortisation payments at such a yield would have been much lower than it is today. The first annual amortisation payment was made in March 2011. I will abstract from some details such as the question of the interest holiday for the first two years. This is how the promissory notes were set up.

Meanwhile, it should be recalled that when, despite the Government guarantees that covered many but not all of them, deposit outflows and bond repayments exceeded Anglo Irish Bank's capacity, the Central Bank, consistent with the euro area view that no senior bank creditors should suffer losses in the crisis, extended emergency liquidity assistance to Anglo Irish Bank. To cut a long story short, much of this is still outstanding to the IBRC and much of it is secured by the promissory notes. Funding such flows is not something that a central bank will normally do for longer than is necessary. In conjunction with the troika and the other Irish authorities, the Central Bank has been actively studying ways of enhancing the security of the overall arrangements surrounding the provision of liquidity for the IBRC and ensuring avoidable deleveraging costs to the system as a whole are not incurred in the disposal of non-core assets. This is a large ambition and the design of a full solution that would achieve the objectives and respect the constraints of all the parties has not yet been finalised.

Given the deepening of the crisis since April 2010 and, in particular, the loss of market access by the Government and the need to have recourse to the EU-IMF programme to ensure continued financing of the Government's budget, the sequence of annual cash payments by the Government of €3.06 billion envisaged for the coming years in the promissory notes has become a source of risk to financial stability. A way of funding this cash payment over a much longer period would clearly help to reduce the risk. Ahead of the scheduled March 2012 payment, the Central Bank has been working vigorously with the ECB and other parties on a mechanism for ensuring such a result in a manner that would be at an acceptable cost to Ireland and the design of which would be beyond criticism from the perspective of Articles 123 and 124 of the treaty. While some technicalities still need to be resolved, it seems likely that this effort will be successful.

I thank the Governor, Professor Patrick Honohan, and Mr. Maurice McGuire for their attendance. I understand the Governor may feel somewhat constrained in answering some of the questions members wish to ask. However, as the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, has placed in the public domain certain information through his statement to the Dáil last Wednesday evening, I hope the Governor can provide clarity on some of the points raised.

The fundamental question is how confident is the Governor that Ireland can avoid the cash payment of €3.06 billion at the end of this week. The Governor has noted it "seems likely that this effort will be successful". If this so transpires, it will be good news, in that securing a deal on the payment due at the end of this week would give Ireland breathing space to negotiate an overall deal on the outstanding promissory note amounts.

Is the Irish side being sufficiently ambitious in what it is seeking to achieve on the promissory notes? Now that the door is, at least, somewhat ajar, as the ECB is beginning to show some willingness to be flexible on the issue, has the issue of a write-down of the debt been put on the table at the governing council? What are the Governor's views on this issue? As he noted correctly, extending the payment over a longer period clearly would help to reduce the risk to financial stability. However, it would do nothing for our debt sustainability. If one merely postpones the entire repayment to a later date, Ireland's overall debt position and profile would remain unchanged, as some ratings agencies have observed in recent days. Is the Governor satisfied that Ireland is being sufficiently ambitious in seeking to achieve the desired outcome? The question of what is the desired outcome is of particular importance.

I refer to some of the details mentioned by the Minister on the floor of the Dáil Chamber about settling this week's payment by way of a long-term Government bond and note the year 2025 was subsequently mentioned in the public domain. What interest rate would apply to such a Government bond or has this issue yet been finalised? Does the Governor have a sense of the direction being taken in the overall shape of the final deal? Were this to be achieved over the course of this week, as I am sure it will, it clearly would be a stepping stone. In what direction is it bringing Ireland in the overall negotiation of the promissory notes? I seek clarity on this point from the Governor.

In the course of public disclosure, originally made early last week, of the shape of the deal on this month's payment, it was stated the cash payment would be made by the State to Anglo Irish Bank but that in return the bank would buy an Irish Government bond. The cash would then rest with the NTMA and, consequently, in effect, the net cash position would remain neutral. Is this still the intention? Will the cash actually leave the State and be put into Anglo Irish Bank? As the Minister implied last week, will the obligation be satisfied merely by issuing a Government bond or will cash actually change hands?

Professor Patrick Honohan

If the committee agrees, I might listen to all the points and answer to the desirable and appropriate level in the public session.

Very well, that is fine. I call Deputy O'Donnell.

I welcome the witnesses. I want to take up on a couple of points from the presentation. It is great that the delegation is here.

Professor Honohan did not attend the private session, when the committee already agreed that each member would be allocated five minutes for questions and answers. To proceed otherwise would not allow us to build on the information that Professor Honohan can provide. The committee discussed this earlier.

We did not make a determination that the questions would be answered separately. The indication was that the Governor had kindly agreed to come and would respond to each of the five sets of questions.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not wish to make an issue of it. We agreed to have the bulk of the session in private so I could be more forthcoming, as there are matters which are the subject of discussions. I am not party to some of these discussions and only have some awareness of them. I do not want to get tangled or be in a position where I am hedging or using ifs and buts. I am quite satisfied to deal with the questions as they come up to the extent that seems desirable.

Would you mind, in those circumstances, dealing with Deputy McGrath's questions? We can then go to each member separately.

Professor Patrick Honohan

With regard to the question of whether there will be something at the end in time for the payment, that issue illustrates exactly a position of hedging that I do not want to appear to give. I want to be completely open to the committee but there are matters about which I cannot speak in public. I used the phrase that it seems likely that this effort will be successful and I will hold to that. I think it is going to happen. There are some things I cannot exactly foresee.

In the discussion, the use of a long-term bond has already been mentioned. This is a major step forward from a sustainability perspective. The idea of a long-term bond being used in lieu of a cash payment is a very considerable step forward, considering it puts off for a long number of years the actual need to refinance those payments. In addition, the net cost of this - we can speak about complications later - will be quite low relative to alternative sources of finance. There is a very definite gain in debt sustainability. We are only talking about a fraction of the total promissory notes so we cannot say it is a decisive change, but relative to this amount, it is a considerable improvement.

There is a question of where this is bringing us overall, which is a very important point. The strategy shared across the public authorities and held by the Central Bank is that this issue must be structured in a manner which leads us to a safer place than we are now. The arrangement regarding this first tranche is very much in the direction in which I want us to go. It is a major step forward qualitatively in the approach.

With regard to cash payments, the detail is still not absolutely final. Assuming this arrangement works out, when it is complete - even if it takes a few more days - any cash payment would circle back. There will be no net cash outlay and any cash payment made by the Exchequer would come back.

That is through replacing the promissory note with a sovereign bond.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes. That is the key.

I can see Professor Honohan is moving through the questions but I wish to return to the bond issue and the interest rate it will attract. Will it reference secondary markets or the programme rate of 3.5%?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The bond used will be a tranche of an existing bond, so the coupon will be as in the schedule of the existing bond. It will definitely be transferred at market value. It must be.

It is with reference to current market value or the rate being charged on secondary markets.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

It is in the region of 6.8%, broadly speaking.

Professor Patrick Honohan

It would be of that order. There was evidence before this committee that the interest rate is in time a circular element. This is not the rate at which the amount is being funded but the amount that transfers between publicly owned institutions. That is not an essential feature. It makes a small difference to the measured debt and deficit ratios but we need to look at the underlying economic flows, and in that case the actual coupon and market rate of the bond are very much secondary factors.

Is that even if it relates to a bond as opposed to the promissory note?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

The witness is sticking with the line that, over time, it is not as relevant a factor.

Professor Patrick Honohan

In other words, if instead of 6.8% the rate turned out to be 16.8%, the extra 10% would go into the IBRC, which is owned by the Government, and come out the other end after all those years.

If that becomes the shape of the overall deal, would the Governor not accept this is an expensive method as we are essentially borrowing money at close to 7%, whereas the programme of assistance we have is providing funding currently at approximately 3.5%?

Professor Patrick Honohan

No. I assure the Deputy that this arrangement is not going to be more expensive than programme funding. If it were more expensive than programme funding, we would not bother with it.

I welcome the Governor's statement that whereas some technicalities need to be resolved, it now seems likely these efforts will be successful. He indicated the manner of the deal should bring an acceptable cost to Ireland, and he touched on that in answering Deputy McGrath's questions. My understanding is the promissory note was constructed in the hope that it would only become part of the Government's debt as repayments were made. The €3.06 billion amount, for example, would only effectively be reflected in the national debt as the repayments were made. That was not agreed at EUROSTAT level and it was always regarded as national debt on a once-off basis. It was constructed at the market rate available for Irish Government bonds at that time.

As it was an artificial construct, is it possible to make the case that one does not have to abide by the current rate in Irish Government bonds? It is a circular movement as the money goes into what was Anglo Irish Bank and there is little or no extra cost to the Irish State. Has the Governor looked at deferring the interest on the setting up of this bond to replace the promissory note of €3.06 billion? There was an interest holiday for two years. Can one find where there is an interest holiday? Is Professor Honohan satisfied that the structure being established will ensure the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation will remain solvent in terms of the interest income it is receiving?

Will Professor Honohan elaborate on the role of tracker mortgages in the long-term solution for the banking sector, specifically Allied Irish Banks and Permanent TSB? Are tracker mortgages part of the overall solution for the IBRC promissory notes? When does Professor Honohan expect the negotiations on the promissory notes to conclude?

Professor Patrick Honohan

On the design of the promissory notes, there were extensive discussions with legal and accounting advisers at the time they were being developed. There were many objectives, not all of which could be attained. The legal and accountancy advisers could not find a solution to the ambitions the Government of the day had for this technique. The Deputy referred to the hope the promissory notes would not become part of Government debt. At a technical level, I am sure the Minister hoped this could have been the case, but it turned out that such a device was not available. The promissory note is probably an overly complicated device for ensuring the solvency of the IBRC.

It had a major overnight impact on our debt.

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is the manifestation of the guarantee. Once the Government had guaranteed the debt, it had two alternatives when the losses were crystallised in Anglo Irish Bank. It could either repay all of the bank's debts immediately or provide a note or bond to replace them. The promissory notes are, therefore, a manifestation of the guarantee as soon as the losses became so severe that the IBRC would not have satisfied-----

Given that this was an artificial construct, do we now have an opportunity to unravel the promissory notes and find a mechanism to make them part of the national debt as the repayments are made?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not believe that is a realistic option at this stage. The market can see what is going on and while the measured debt is important, it is not necessarily all that important. What I am concerned about and what it is correct to be concerned about are the underlying economic costs to the State which can mainly be measured in terms of the long-term cash flows. That is what we are structuring around. Can the structure be improved and can the issue of non-core assets of going concern banks also be dealt with? This is the ambition of the larger analysis which has not yet been completed. When will it be completed? I believe it will take several more months. It is hard to reconcile the objectives of the different players involved. The transaction proposed in respect of the end March payment is one half of a step towards the larger scale. This speaks to Deputy Michael McGrath's question as to whether we are being ambitious enough. If the transaction for end March was all there was, the answer would probably be "No". The ambition is greater, although it is not necessarily of the dimensions the Deputy hinted at.

On questions as to whether interest can be deferred and so forth, these are primarily accounting issues. It is not as easy for a Government to propose special accounting arrangements as it may have been 20 years ago when no formal systems of Government accounting were in place. Government accounting is on a much more scrutinised basis and I do not believe there is much advantage to be gained in trying to obtain an accounting advantage. In any case, I would not be interested in pursuing one.

That the interest charge is deferred means it is income in the IBRC's account but does not hit the budgetary account for the ordinary person. If an interest deferral is obtained in respect of interest payments on a Government bond, this clearly will have an impact on the day-to-day lives of ordinary people.

Professor Patrick Honohan

It is very important to recognise that these financial transactions relate to the long-term debt profile and stability and do not map across to a change in this year's budgetary profile. It does not mean that, at last, some new sum of money will be released to allow us some change in the budgetary profile. That has not been in any way an expectation of the parties involved.

I welcome Professor Honohan and Mr. McGuire. Professor Honohan is aware of my position on the promissory notes as I have put it to him directly. The notes should not be paid, but I understand that is not the position. To put the issue in context, Professor Honohan referred to the budgetary profile. Members of the public are wondering what the forthcoming deal will mean for them, for example, whether it will result in less austerity. From what the Governor stated, especially on the coupon rate which must be factored into the general Government deficit, the deal will not make any difference in terms of the budgetary profile this year or next year. Does Professor Honohan agree that will be the position should the deal proceed? That is a "Yes" or "No" question.

Is there such a thing?

Either it is or is not the case.

As the Governor is aware, the capital amount at which the promissory notes are valued is €28.1 billion because the first tranche was paid last year by the Government. Will Professor Honohan indicate if any of the proposals before the European Central Bank would result in a reduction in the capital amount to be paid to the former Anglo Irish Bank or are we, to use the words of others, kicking the can down the road? Is it the case that regardless of which proposal emerges from the ECB governing council, the full €28.1 billion plus the add-ons in terms of the coupon rate will have to be paid to the IBRC? This is a fundamental question because many of us believe the debt should be written down.

Professor Honohan referred to the possibility of a cash payment and indicated a successful deal was a likely outcome. Does he also believe it is likely that a cash payment will be made on 31 March? On the coupon rate, I know he will argue that a promissory note is technically sovereign debt and, therefore, a sovereign commitment. However, issuing a sovereign bond confers additional status on the commitment given to the IBRC by the Government and the previous Administration. The Governor mentioned that the extremely high 6.8% coupon rate was circular. I agree with that assessment provided the bond remains within the IBRC. What is there to prevent the IBRC selling that bond on the secondary market? We understand the proposal is that the bond will be for a duration of 13 years. A bond is tradeable and, therefore, a financial institution could buy that bond and the 6.8% would be paid to the financial institution, which means that it would no longer be circular but would go into the pockets of an undisclosed bondholder. Professor Honohan may say it is unlikely, but what is to prevent an institution trading that bond on the secondary market, with the coupon rate payable to that institution instead of to ourselves?

Professor Honohan mentioned that this proposal will increase our debt sustainability. How is that the case? Can he inform the committee the percentage reduction in terms of debt to GDP that will be secured as a result of this? I understand that this will not reduce our debt to GDP ratio by even a portion of a percentage point. Can Professor Honohan clarify that?

There has been much talk about tracker mortgage changes as part of the overall package. If the tracker mortgages are to be transferred to the IBRC, what outlay will be required to cover not only the promissory note but also to cover the component of the tracker mortgages that are being transferred? How does it sit with the European financial stability facility, EFSF, to allow the State redeem such a bond?

Many of us wanted to wind up Anglo Irish Bank, including some people in the last Government. The date for winding up the bank is 2020 at the latest. Will the proposals before the ECB see a delay in the winding down of that institution?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The question of kicking the can down the road is a relevant one. Will what is envisaged for this payment - let us distinguish between this payment and the bulk of the thing - improve the debt situation? The value of the debt to GDP ratio is only one indication of debt sustainability. Very long-term debt that does not mature for a very long period, and for which cash can be obtained at a moderate price in the interim, is a much more sustainable animal than debt that has to be rolled in the market every few years. Lengthening the debt and assuring the funding of the debt as far as possible at a moderate rate will improve the debt sustainability. This payment is only a small fraction of overall Government debt, so it will not in itself materially change it, but it will change it definitely in the right direction, even if it might increase the measured debt to GDP ratio.

The transactions are quite complex, so we have to scrutinise them to ensure they are very much to the net advantage of the State. There are other players who might want to do something different. Kicking the can down the road is certainly too pejorative a description of this. It is not a complete solution.

In respect of the move from promissory notes to sovereign debt, given the Deputy's position on how the promissory note should be treated, it is not surprising that the normal marketable bond is, in the Deputy's eyes, a different kettle of fish. I concede that the promissory note is a more flexible instrument and we did see an adjustment of interest versus capital and so forth. However, it is an obligation of the State, and it is not just the statisticians who think that. There is no getting away from that and it is an obligation the State will honour. That speaks to the issue of cash payment. A cash payment which is immediately extinguished by another transaction is still a cash payment which is valuable for communicating to markets that the Government does make its payments, even if the total effect of the transaction is to extinguish that cash payment and have the cash come right back to the Government in a prompt manner. I hope there is no tendency to get terribly excited about a cash payment which is rapidly extinguished.

The Deputy referred to mortgages and non-core assets of the banking system and how they would form part of a subsequent transaction. I would like to develop that idea at length later on. It is being developed at the moment.

We will deal with the EFSF later on in private session.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

Professor Honohan mentioned that this transaction could increase our debt to GDP ratio. Can the professor confirm that the budgetary matter will not actually-----

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes. The budgetary profile-----

What is there to prevent the IBRC trading the sovereign bond issued by the State at a coupon rate of about 6.8% on the secondary markets? If this were the case, the 6.8% would be paid annually over that period to another institution.

Professor Patrick Honohan

This would be a matter between the Minister for Finance, as owner of the IBRC, and the IBRC. The Deputy can be sure that the Minister would be very reluctant to envisage any transaction.

Is there nothing to prevent this happening?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The Minister will have the power to do those things. I do not think the Deputy need worry about that. That would be my guess. It is not something in which I am involved myself.

The advantage in changing the budgetary profile is an advantage in securing Ireland back onto a low interest rate path in order that the Government can finance itself at a lower cost, thereby freeing up resources for needed public services and so on. It is not that this yields an amount which the troika will allow us to spend from its profile for this year and next year. That is not my expectation, but the Deputy can confirm that with the Minister. It is a budgetary matter. Perhaps I am speaking out of turn, because it is not for me to decide what will be negotiated between the Government and the troika on the budgetary profile for 2013, which will be the last year of the programme. I would not be expecting that this would yield anything extra.

The Deputy is now 11 or 12 minutes in.

I appreciate that. I have one final question. The capital payment of €3.06 billion is not included in the troika targets, but the interest rate is included. If this year's payment goes ahead, no interest is booked in, which means no more austerity measures are required. Under the proposal outlined by Professor Honohan, there would be an interest payment of 6.8% off the €3.1 billion, which is about €210 million. That interest payment would be booked in, which means it would have to be found through additional taxation or expenditure cuts.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Subject to verification of the details, I think that is not correct in terms of the timing. I do not think there is any interest payment in 2012.

What about next year?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Next year is a different matter.

I welcome the witnesses. I would like Professor Honohan to confirm one thing. Two Deputies mentioned an interest rate of 6.8%. Professor Honohan did not confirm if that was the interest rate on the long-term bond. I would like to be clear on it, because the interest rate on the proposed long-term bond was mentioned twice. I did not hear Professor Honohan confirm or deny this, and I would like to be clear on it.

Would Professor Honohan mind clarifying that at this point?

Professor Patrick Honohan

On the bond that is envisaged to be used in this transaction, the coupon is 5.4%. The market yield will depend on the market price of that bond on the day of the relevant transaction. When I last looked at it, it was in the territory that the Deputies are talking about. It shows members how little concerned I am about it that I do not even know today's up-to-date number.

I wish I was not as concerned.

Professor Patrick Honohan

It does matter.

How will it affect the repayments of the ELA and the Central Bank exposure, given we have a programme of repayments? How will this be worked into the programme of repayments? Have there been discussions on the ECB holding of Irish sovereign debt bought in the secondary market in 2011 through the securities market programme in the promissory notes negotiations? How much debt is held by the ECB? Barclays Capital estimated it was €18 billion in June 2010. Has that increased significantly since? I am sure the ECB holds a register. Has the Governor of the Central Bank access to this to see exactly what debt the ECB holds and at what rate it was purchased?

Everybody is aware that a constitutional challenge is being taken by New Beginning regarding the promissory notes and the Central Bank is a named party. Has advice been taken by the bank? Has Professor Honohan an opinion on the constitutional challenge?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not want to select out questions. These questions are so interesting but they are all ones that I am constrained in discussing in open session. The ELA is a very sensitive matter, as are the securities market programme of the ECB and the court case. I just do not feel that I should comment in the public session.

Will Professor Honohan deal with these questions first when we go into private session?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

I welcome Professor Honohan and Mr. McGuire and I thank them for attending at such short notice.

I would like the professor's thoughts on two issues. The first relates to the ELA from the Central Bank as opposed to just the promissory note and the second is the sustainability of the debt. Essentially, on the promissory note, the IBRC owes the Governor of the Central Bank approximately €40 billion. The exact amount outstanding under the ELA is not available but he knows what it is. We, the people, have promised to give IBRC approximately €30 billion. To do so, we have to borrow it from somebody, presumably at a market rate of approximately 3.5%. This will be converted into a bond that can be issued at 1.5% instead of 3.5% and, therefore, the gain to the State is hypothetically a two percentage point spread on €30 billion, which would be worth approximately €600 million a year. I understand my numbers will be slightly out but is that broadly the mechanism involved?

The second issue is the repayment on the promissory notes which is €3.1 billion a year for ten years and then interest rates will change, which I imagine does not reflect the cash need of IBRC to pay the ELA to the Central Bank. I tabled a parliamentary question in this regard to the Minister for Finance whose officials replied in their usual obscure manner saying it was none of the people's business but it seems it very much is our business if IBRC is saying it needs us to give it €3.1 billion a year because it owes the Central Bank X amount a year. IBRC has assets, which it is liquidating on an ongoing basis. Other than the debt IBRC owes the Governor, as the representative of the Central Bank, what is the projected cash shortfall this year? We do not know, and officials in the Department of Finance refuse to tell us how much additional money IBRC needs this year. What is the cash shortfall this year and, in an ideal world, for the next few years? Perhaps the answer is zero and the bank can fully honour its commitments to the Central Bank of Ireland without the State borrowing money or issuing bonds in the short term.

With regard to the sustainability of the debt, the State's debt to GDP ratio is about to reach 120% and I accept Professor Honohan's point that this is only one metric, though an important metric. If the NAMA bonds worth €30 billion are included and it is accepted the property market is still falling, the general Government debt may face an additional liability and this ratio may be in excess of 120% in real terms. I spoke to one of our MEPs on Friday who said it is becoming quite nauseating in Europe because the Irish keep getting congratulated on being the best boys and girls in class. The image that conjured for me was someone holding my head under water and drowning me as he or she complimented me on my swimming stroke. Bearing in mind the nuances mentioned by Professor Honohan, is this debt to GDP ratio sustainable?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The question I noted in particular related to how much cash IBRC needs. In fact, the objective of the plan is to eliminate the cash need by postponing it. This is supposed to be a technique for eliminating the cash need so that the State will not have to become indebted. Perhaps I will not go down that road.

Essentially if a bond is issued and the quasi-sovereign debt becomes real sovereign debt, is the benefit to the people the difference between the hopefully low interest rate the bond is issued at and the programme lending rate of approximately 3.5%?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The programme funding is there. A block of money is set out and approved. Soaking up the programme funding for this purpose is probably what most people envisaged would happen but if this can be avoided, the funding would be available to secure and ease the Government's re-entry into the markets. One cannot use it twice and this is better than the outline given by the Deputy.

The debt position is calculated and it is not a comfortable situation. I share the Deputy's concern that we might get into a situation, as has happened, where we become too optimistic and complacent about the Irish situation. A lot of work has been done by successive Governments to adjust the budgetary position but more has to be done to put the Government absolutely safely on track. Making arrangements in the way I am talking about, which prolong the effective maturity of the promissory note debt, is part of the ingredient that will put us in a safe position, ensure the sustainability of debt and put it beyond the sort of doubt raised about it.

A number of members are interested in further discussion but I would like an opportunity for us to reorganise ourselves and, therefore, I will suspend the meeting for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 3.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.35 p.m. The joint committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 April 2012.
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