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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022

Withdrawal from Irish Banking Market (Resumed): Engagement with Ulster Bank and KBC Ireland

I note the minutes of the joint committee meeting of 12 October 2022 were agreed at an earlier private meeting. Today, we are dealing with Ulster Bank and KBC Bank. I welcome everyone to the meeting. We are joined by Ms Jane Howard, CEO, Ms Elizabeth Arnett, director of corporate affairs, Ms Louise Kelly, head of public affairs, from Ulster Bank and by Mr. Frank Jansen, CEO, Mr. Dermot Kieran, chief financial and products officer, and Mr. Darragh Lennon, director of retail distribution, from KBC Bank. The format of the meeting is that witnesses will give their opening statements after which we will deal with any matters that arise from that.

I remind witnesses and members of privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members who are attending from the Leinster House campus are covered by full parliamentary privilege and those attending outside of the campus may have limited privilege.

I call Ms Howard to give her opening statement.

Ms Jane Howard

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting us to attend today’s meeting. I am joined by Ulster Bank’s director of corporate affairs, Ms Elizabeth Arnett.

As the members know, our phased withdrawal is progressing and we have made sure to keep the committee informed at all stages. We have committed to a phased, orderly withdrawal to minimise job losses and support all colleagues with training and development, with a preference to deal with strategic banking counterparties, where possible, who can provide customers with full banking services in the Irish market. We commit to helping our customers move to a new provider as safely and as seamlessly as possible, with plenty of advance notice, and to keep branches open throughout our choose, move, close campaign to ensure customers have access to branch support during their six-month notice period, where possible. There has been no bank-wide voluntary redundancy scheme in the first half of 2022, and it is highly unlikely that we will see large numbers of redundancy exits this year. In addition, we have committed to dealing with our non-performing loans in the later stages of our withdrawal, to allow customers who are in difficulty as much time and support as possible to return to a performing position. We are delivering on all of these commitments as our withdrawal progresses.

Today, I would like to outline the current position and the next steps for our current and deposit account customers, and we are happy to take questions on any aspect of our withdrawal in the discussion and will endeavour to answer them subject to the normal commercial considerations. We announced our plans for the closure of our current and deposit account customers a year ago, in October 2021. Six months later, in April 2022, we formally began writing to customers to ask them to choose a new provider, and move and close their current and deposit accounts on a phased, rolling basis, giving them six months’ notice to do so. We have been communicating multiple times and in multiple ways with our customers throughout this six-month notice period, and there are a number of channels available to them to close accounts. We have engaged in significant advertising and marketing campaigns, as have other important stakeholders such as financial service providers, the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland, the Department of Social Protection and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. The campaigns have been constant, and one can hardly turn on the radio, open a newspaper or go online without hearing a message about moving to a new provider. This might seem excessive sometimes but a programme of this scale that requires so many customers and stakeholders to act, requires this level of communications. Based on our independent research, the communications have worked, and our customers are universally aware of what is happening and of what they need to do.

In addition to our customer communications and in recognition that many other stakeholders external to Ulster Bank would need to play a part in ensuring customers could safely choose, move and close, we commenced a proactive programme of engagement a year ago. To date, we have held over 1,200 stakeholder engagements, from large-scale roadshow events to regular, one-to-one meetings. Many committee members or colleagues in their constituency or parliamentary teams have attended some of these events.

Our objective is to ensure we employ all communication channels to ensure customers are aware of the action they need to take and the supports available to them. I thank all stakeholders for their ongoing support. While communications are a central part of our activity, it is second only to providing practical support and outreach to customers. In this regard, we are very proud of our front-line teams and the lengths to which they have gone to support our customers, and I take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank them for that.

By way of example of the sorts of initiatives we are implementing to provide practical support to customers, we have changed our branch hours to allow more time to support customers move their accounts. We have hosted teams from other financial institutions in our banking halls, so they are on site to open accounts for our customers. We have a full range of supports for vulnerable customers, details of which we have shared with the committee. We have carried out additional proactive contact to customers who might need more help, such as those in financial difficulty, older customers, heavy branch users and customers at the end of their six-month notice period. We have made it easier for customers to close their account in-branch, on the telephone and digitally.

We are already seeing trends that show a significant reduction in reliance on branches for our customers, with in-branch transactions down by 49% and falling each week. At the same time, other financial providers have made it easier for customers to open accounts and we have seen many initiatives in this regard. I will not mention any specifically, but we can see from the enormous number of accounts that have been opened this year - on average 12,500 a week - that the supports put in place by other financial providers are working. In some instances, accounts can be opened digitally in a matter of moments but, equally, for customers who do not want to open accounts digitally there is no significant delay for appointments, with the Central Bank reporting an eight-day waiting period for appointments.

We have also mirrored our process and approach for our business customers, providing them with six months’ notice to choose, move and close as well as multiple letters, prompts and calls.

Having a working current account is crucial for businesses to be able to pay their employees and suppliers, receive payments and carry out all their financial duties. The switching or closing process can typically take longer for a business customer because requirements are often more complex, so I have been engaging proactively with these customers since they received their first letters, and in many cases before then, to ensure they have the support they need. If a customer does not switch or close a business current account, it could have implications for the business in terms of paying employee wages, paying suppliers and receiving payments for its goods and services. Ulster Bank is asking employers to communicate directly with employees who continue to have Ulster Bank accounts to remind them to change their details to avoid any disruptions to salary payments.

We believe we have taken all reasonable steps to support customers to choose, move and close and, to the best of our knowledge, other financial institutions have also taken appropriate steps to encourage customers to choose, move and close.

As the committee is aware, we have significant outreach to customers, with a focus on those approaching the end of their notice period for current and deposit accounts. In the past four weeks we have made, on average, approximately 10,000 calls a week, successfully contacting an average of 6,000 customers per week. In these calls, our colleagues ask customers if they need support ahead of the end of their six-month notice period. The majority of these customers are telling us that they have taken action or are in the process of doing so, and already have their move well in hand. Most customers are telling us that they have opened a new account and need to complete the transfer of their transactions. A small percentage tell us they will now take action, while a very small number of customers have asked us for more time due to personal circumstances. We have now written to the vast majority of customers who need to close their account, which means almost every customer has begun the six-month notice period, with some more advanced than others.

Before I go into the detail of what has been happening, I wish to share one of the learnings from the past six months. When we started this process, we believed the primary metric for success would be the number of accounts that have closed. However, a far more important metric is the degree to which a customer is reliant on the account. When a customer has an account with another bank and his or her salary and other payments are going into that account and the direct debits and so on have been moved to it, the customer is no longer reliant on his or her Ulster Bank account. The customer might never come back to close the account with Ulster Bank, so in such instances we can close the account with no impact on the customer. What is important is that the customer has safely moved to a new provider and is no longer reliant on Ulster Bank. Understanding that reliance, through detailed analysis, has helped us to target more effective communication which, in turn, has driven customer behaviour. For example, members may have heard our adverts targeting customers making nursing home payments or customers in receipt of social protection payments. We have also highlighted salary payments because nothing says you need a bank account more than if your main source of income is banked there.

How have customers been responding? Some customers have gone beyond their six-month notice period and some other customers still have more than five months’ notice left. As such, looking at the headline numbers across the entire population will not tell one very much about customer behaviour and the customer response. Of our personal current account customers who received their first formal notification in April and May, 71% have either closed or materially wound down the level of activity in their current account or left it inactive and dormant, and that percentage is increasing every day. Since our submission last Friday, 80% of our first set of customers have either closed or are inactive on their accounts. We have contacted most of the remainder of these customers as a final reminder and most of them are reporting that they have opened a new account elsewhere or are in the process of moving their payments to a new account. Broadly, this trend is emerging in the other tranches of customers and we are not seeing anything in the numbers that at this stage would change that trend. This is evidenced in a number of ways. For example, 171,000 Ulster Bank accounts were in receipt of social protection payments at the start of the year. This number has dropped by more than 80% to approximately 30,000. Since we submitted our report, it has dropped to 28,000.

What happens now? From the outset, we committed to an orderly and phased withdrawal of the bank from the Irish market. This commitment is more important than ever as we commence the process of freezing and closing accounts. Therefore, in line with our commitment, we will take a considered and careful approach to account closures. We will continue to assess external, operational and other factors to ensure that the right number and type of accounts are progressing to the account freezing and closing stages. As a reminder, our closure process has an additional step built in. Customers have six months’ notice to choose, move and close. On or after the six months, the account is frozen for 30 days and then moves to closure. This is an important interim step and, for some customers, may be the trigger to ensure they are no longer reliant on Ulster Bank. We will also take time to understand the account profile and what impact, if any, freezing the account will have on the customer. That will determine the point at which an account moves forward into the closure process. Ultimately, all accounts will move into the closure process, but in the initial round of closures we will take a very precautionary approach.

What does this mean for customers at the end of their notice period? As some customers are past or close to passing their six-month notice period, a number of things will happen. These will be dependent on the needs of the customer. If a customer needs more support, which may or may not mean more time, we can provide that - the customer just needs to let us know. If a customer is still reliant on the account after the six-month notice period is over, we will try to make contact with the customer again to ensure he or she has all the requirements needed to complete the move to a new bank and service provider. We will not freeze or close the customer's accounts at this time but it is essential that the customer continues the process of moving to another service provider. According to customer feedback and independent research, most of these customers have a bank account elsewhere and are in the process of moving, so we believe they are on the way to completing the process.

If we freeze an account on which a customer is still reliant, we can temporarily reverse the freezing of the account for a short time once the customer contacts us. If a customer is no longer reliant on an account but it is still open, with no activity or a low level of activity, the customer can expect the account to be frozen and closed on or after the six-month notice period. This precautionary, careful and controlled approach means that where a customer is reliant on the account, we can tailor the closure to the customer's individual requirements, and the overall closure of accounts is managed to maintain an orderly process for customers, the industry and other key stakeholders. Right now, we have a temporary pause in the commencement of this activity to accommodate the additional social protection payments announced in the recent budget. Even though more than 80% of customers in receipt of a social protection payment have taken action on their account, there are some who have not done so and they have the potential to be the most vulnerable.

We will start the process of freezing and closing accounts in a controlled and careful way on or after 11 November, beginning with customers who we believe are no longer reliant on their account. We will take a planned break in freezing accounts for Christmas. During this break, accounts that have already been frozen for a month will continue to close unless the customer contacts us, and we will continue our outreach to customers reliant on their account during that time. We will recommence the programme of freezing and closing accounts in the new year, so it is important that customers realise that once their six-month notice period is over, their account will be in line to be closed, but there is help available if they need it.

It is important to remember that Ulster Bank is closing. We need to provide certainty for our colleagues as to when they can expect to leave the bank so they can plan for their futures, and we need to be clear to customers that it is in their best interests to be with a new financial provider that can support their needs into the future. We have endeavoured to ensure that all reasonable steps have been taken to support customers to choose, move and close. We will continue to do so throughout this process.

I thank the members for listening and am happy to take their questions.

I thank Ms Howard. I acknowledge Mr. Richard Crotty in the Public Gallery who is a student from Trinity College Dublin studying politics and international affairs. I wish him well in his endeavours.

We will now move to Mr. Jansen to give his opening statement.

Mr. Frank Jansen

I thank the Chairman and committee members. I am grateful for the opportunity to address this committee. I am accompanied today by my colleagues Dermot Kieran, chief financial and products officer of the bank, and Darragh Lennon, director of retail distribution. We look forward to a constructive discussion regarding the closure and switching of current accounts and related issues as KBC exits the Irish market.

A number of key milestones in relation to the planned orderly exit of KBC have taken place since we last met with the committee. The agreement relating to the sale of performing loan assets and deposits to the Bank of Ireland Group received approval from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission on 24 May 2022, after which we ceased accepting new applications across all products.

We have also been informed that the Minister for Finance has instructed that the ministerial order confirming his approval of the transfer to Bank of Ireland be drafted. Subject to the completion of the remaining procedural steps, the transfer is anticipated to take place in early 2023.

We have started communicating with our customers on the next steps associated with the transfer of products to Bank of Ireland. As part of this communication, we have provided customers with a comprehensive product guide outlining clearly what is happening across all products and the actions required of customers in each case. When we last attended this committee in May of this year, I expressed our determination to protect the interests of our customers and staff to the greatest extent possible as we conduct an orderly exit from the Irish market. It has been and will remain a key priority for KBC Bank Ireland to support our customers at every turn and to communicate effectively with them, ensuring they have all the information they require, understand the actions they need to take, and have sufficient time to take those actions.

KBC current accounts are not part of the transaction with Bank of Ireland, which means that customers are required to move and close their current accounts. Managing this process has been an important priority for our team and we have dedicated significant resources to ensure the process is as smooth as possible for our customers. I am happy to report that, in partnership with our customers and supported by our dedicated staff, we are making good progress and account closures are tracking materially ahead of plan. I would like to now provide members with an update on that progress.

As outlined previously when we attended here in May, we estimated, based on our data and analysis, that 52,000 of the 130,000 total number of KBC current account holders may need to open a new account or move to a new provider. Today, our estimates show that the 52,000 figure is down 25% to 39,000. I can also confirm that 55% of all current account customers have now received account closure notices, and these notices will continue to be issued into the first quarter of 2023. Priority customers, including those in a vulnerable position, non-digitally enabled customers, and people over the age of 65 were prioritised from the outset to give them sufficient time to transfer their accounts and 95% of that group have received their notifications. Of this prioritised group of 4,400 customers, only 700 remain with an active account today.

There has been a 110% increase in current accounts with a zero balance, with an overall reduction of 26% in current account balances since May. The number of direct debits is reducing at a rate of 3,000 per week. Another key indicator of activity is the level of social welfare payments being made into current accounts. This has decreased by 32% from May to September, with just 8,500 accounts remaining in receipt of social welfare payments.

We can confirm that 10% of current accounts have been closed by customers since May, which is above our projections. The first wave of account closures, which consists of inactive current accounts, will commence in December 2022. The closure process will proceed from that point onwards in four-week cycles, continuing until August 2023.

As previously communicated, 90% of all customer service queries are handled through the contact centre and 97% of active KBC current account customers are digitally enabled. KBC has increased by 65% the staff dedicated to serving customers in the contact centre and by 25% in our operations centre since the announcement of the agreement with Bank of Ireland, ensuring that strong service levels are maintained and the average call waiting time for talking to a colleague in the contact centre in KBC remains less than 30 seconds.

We know that a digital first approach to banking is preferred by our customers and this is supported by our recent research which found that 81% of KBC customers surveyed prefer to close their account digitally. In November, KBC will be able to support customers to close their current accounts via the KBC app. Our hubs, which are not traditional bank branches as they were primarily designed for sales and not for operations, are used by a small number of our customers for support and they will remain open to support with switching or closing until after customers have transferred to Bank of Ireland. Based on our customer data, we expect that those current account holders who are more likely to want to visit a hub, will have already closed or switched their current accounts before the closure of any hubs.

We have a dedicated care team for customers who may need some extra help and support during this time. Our care team has lots of experience supporting customers with different needs and continues to support vulnerable customers through the current account closure process.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank KBC Bank Ireland staff who continue to go the extra mile in servicing the needs of our customers in what is a challenging period for them also. A successful engagement process with the employee council, which represents staff interests, culminated in that body securing a redundancy package that compares very favourably in the sector and we continue the principle of consulting and communicating on an ongoing basis with staff directly.

On the subject of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, or TUPE regulations, and the transfer of staff to Bank of Ireland, I can confirm that the TUPE consultation with Bank of Ireland concluded in July and that all eligible staff have been communicated with directly regarding the transfer of their role and how their employment terms and conditions have been protected. It is still too early to state the number of employees who will transfer to Bank of Ireland, as they are entitled to waive their TUPE rights up to the point of migration in 2023.

In conclusion, I believe we are making good progress on the subject of current account closures and account switching where we continue to place the interests of customers at the centre of the process, providing every support we can in doing so.

As stated, we are also heavily focused on the well-being of our staff and we will continue to engage with them to ensure that their best interests are protected as we continue the orderly wind-down of the bank. My colleagues and I are happy to take any questions the committee members may have.

I call Deputy Doherty.

I was wondering if we all should go home, given that the CEOs have told us they are ahead of target and everything is going so well. I want to dig a bit deeper into all of that. I might focus, given the limitation of time, on Ms Howard in relation to Ulster Bank to see where it is at this point in time.

I welcome some of the statistics that Ulster Bank brought to the committee. The key message here is for people not to delay but to engage, to close their accounts and to open an account in another financial provider before the deadline. There was an extension of the deadline and the deadline is now 4 November for those first tranche of letters that were sent out. My first question is how many letters were sent out in April that now have a deadline of 4 November?

Ms Jane Howard

Can I start with some of the information and I will come to that point? What is really important is how many customers are actually inactive.

With respect, because I am going to delve into this, I just want to get some facts. Can Ms Howard give us a breakdown of how many letters were issued in April?

Ms Jane Howard

It was actually 17,291 in the very first set of customer letters.

Brilliant. In the breakdown of those, how many of those were active current accounts and active deposit accounts?

Ms Jane Howard

I do not have the precise statistics of the time. What I can tell the Deputy is how we are now tracking it to see how many are now active or inactive, if that would help.

Ms Jane Howard

Of those, more than 50% have closed. The figure is 51% that have actually closed. We have got 24% where there are either no transactions going through the account, where there is a nil balance or where there is a very low number of between one and five transactions in a 30-day period.

Gripping all of that together, Ms Howard has come here and redefined how she will target. It was closure of accounts and now it is little activity. She speaks about between one and five transactions. However, one transaction that defaults could be a major one. Breaking this down, 51% have closed and their deadline is now two weeks away. It will be two weeks from Friday, but 51% have closed. Of the 49% that remain open, how many of them have a nil balance and no activity?

Ms Jane Howard

Approximately 2,500. Can I just talk the Deputy through how we are approaching this? It is quite important that I let him know what we are doing because it is a very cautionary approach.

I appreciate that. I want to get some statistics, however, because none of these numbers were in Ms Howard’s opening statement. The key issue for us is that there is a deadline of two weeks from Friday, when the bank is to suspend activity. We know that 8,500 are still open. Is that correct?

Ms Jane Howard

Yes, and we are not freezing activity on those. If I can just tell you-----

We will come to that.

Ms Jane Howard

-----what I am doing I think that might be helpful.

Ms Howard mentioned in her opening statement that there will be a process there, which I welcome. I want to come to that, if that is okay.

Ms Jane Howard

Yes.

So, there are 8,500 that are still open. Of the 8,500 that are still open and that have a deadline of two weeks from Friday, how many of them have a nil balance or have no activity whatsoever and are basically inactive?

Ms Jane Howard

Approximately 24%.

Is the figure 2,200 or roughly about that?

Ms Jane Howard

It is a bit more than that. It is just over 3,000.

Just over 3,000. Then we have approximately 5,500 accounts that have some level of activity, are not closed and that have a deadline. Is that correct?

Ms Jane Howard

No, out of the 17,000, 9,275 are closed. Over 4,000 are very low impact; they are either nil or have very few transactions. Then there are 2,200, which we think are quite high impact on the bank. There are approximately another 1,400 that are medium impact, that is, where we think there is some reliance.

Ms Howard is mixing up two different categories that I want to separate, because she is saying has “no activity” or “little activity”. That “little activity” is an active current account. It is an active account. If there is activity on it, then it is active.

Ms Jane Howard

Well, I do not think it is active but if the Deputy can let me describe how we are looking at it, that might help.

What type of activity is it, if Ms Howard could give me an example?

Ms Jane Howard

It could be a transfer between two accounts. We deliberately looked at deposit accounts, for example. They might have just done a transfer from one account to another. With a current account we have taken out anybody who might be getting a payment of more than €125 per week. We did that because we think that might be salary. Therefore, they are probably using the account. We have also removed any customer who might be getting a Department of Social Protection payment. The accounts we are freezing are deposit accounts and if it is a current account, there is no activity or between one and five transactions in the last 30 days but typically, these are not main banked activities that are going through those accounts.

Yes, but they could be a direct debit. Could it be a direct debit for a mobile phone?

Ms Jane Howard

It could potentially be, but we have taken 30 days-----

Could it be an electricity bill?

Ms Jane Howard

Yes, but if I could just-----

Could it be an electricity bill?

Ms Jane Howard

It could be an electricity bill.

So that is an active account.

Ms Jane Howard

Can I just talk for a moment about the research we have done, because we are reaching out to these customers as well to explain-----

I appreciate that but I want to get the bottom of this. There are 9,271 accounts that have been closed of the 17,291 that have a deadline of two weeks from Friday. How many other accounts that remain open have absolutely no activity and a nil balance; that basically are completely inactive? Do not categorise somebody who might have to pay their direct debit for their electricity or their mobile phone as inactive. I am asking Ms Howard how many have none whatsoever.

Ms Jane Howard

Two thousand, five hundred and ninety-two.

The number is 2,592. What are we left with, then? Is it 5,400, which is the figure I mentioned earlier on? We are therefore talking about 5,400 accounts that have some level of activity, either transactions, direct debits, maybe partial payments-----

Ms Jane Howard

We are not freezing those accounts.

I am just trying to figure this out, because they have a deadline of two weeks from Friday, do they not?

Ms Jane Howard

They had a deadline of six months and then we have extended it in terms of freezing the accounts. The reason why-----

There are 5,400 accounts with Ulster Bank that have some level of activity at different scales. Some of those could be wages and some of them could be mortgage. Some of them could be at a lower level, such as an iTunes bill, an ESB bill or whatever. Of those 5,400 accounts, the deadline for them to close their account is two weeks from Friday. Is that correct?

Ms Jane Howard

The deadline for them to close their account is two weeks, but we are not closing their accounts. What we chose to do, which is-----

Ms Howard is saying that Ulster Bank is on target. Did she think that after six months and she gave an extra month, that a month after the original deadline, having 5,400 active accounts out of 17,000 is a good target? I would argue that it is not good. That is one third of all accounts that are still active.

Ms Jane Howard

Some 80% are either closed or are broadly inactive but we have-----

Hang on. Can I just make this point? If you close their account, I know we will get to this point, but if you freeze their account and their electricity bill is not paid and they get disconnected, try telling that family the bank thought it was an inactive account.

Ms Jane Howard

Let me describe-----

Ulster Bank is changing the rules of what the bank set out to do because it is not meeting its targets. The target was the closure of accounts. Now Ulster Bank is talking about inactive accounts. However, these inactive accounts are really accounts that have some activity on them.

Ms Jane Howard

What we are doing is that we are freezing the accounts where we believe there is no reliance on their accounts as their main bank. However, if the customer contacts to us to say that there is reliance, we can unfreeze that account. We can understand what help they need, because we have looked at the accounts and the activity is coming down on all those accounts, to see what more help they need. We are doing it in that way as an extra step and not going straight to closure.

I have welcomed that step, so let us tease that step out now. Just imagine that I am one of the 5,400 people who have some level of activity on my account. Two weeks from Friday, the deadline will have passed and my account is to be frozen for one month. Ulster Bank will make an assessment now in terms of the activity on my account. If my ESB bill is to come out of my account, what will Ulster Bank do?

Ms Jane Howard

We will freeze the account.

It is frozen again.

Ms Jane Howard

We will look at the activity that has been happening on the account. As it is run down, if it falls into the category of between one and five transactions or no transactions at all, those are the accounts we will freeze. If a person then contacts us to say they still need the account and have reliance on it, we will then unfreeze it. This is after six months and-----

I appreciate that.

Ms Jane Howard

-----we are reaching out to these customers. It is important for us hear what the outreach has been.

I appreciate that. I just want full clarity on the type of activity that will cause Ulster Bank to freeze the account. If one of those one in five transactions that are taking place within 30 days is my ESB bill, the account will be frozen. Is that correct? If my mortgage direct debit is one of the five transactions that has happened in the account in the past month, will my account be frozen?

Ms Jane Howard

No. Let us just look at what the research is telling us. We are contacting these customers as well. We are now reaching out to customers with 10,000 calls a week.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

In the first tranche of customers, we know for sure that more than half of the accounts are closed. We know there is less reliance for a grouping of customers and we know there is heavy reliance for some customers. The heavy-reliant customers will not enter into the freezing and closing process at this point. We are, however, continuing to contact them to have conversations with them as to what is going on. They have had six months’ notice and there has been a very public campaign.

I am trying to find out, with respect, what heavy reliance is. Is it one’s electricity bill, mortgage, mobile phone bill etc.?

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

Let me address that. An active current account could have 70 or more transactions in a month. If we think of all the times people use their current accounts to tap for a coffee, pay a mortgage or whatever, an active current account on which they are fully reliant will have a high number of transactions. If a person's number of transactions is between one and five, it is not unreasonable to assume, primarily because customers as well as independent research are telling us, it is very unlikely to be that person’s main bank account. What defines reliance here, for example, would be where a person has a bank account elsewhere. That person would be less reliant on Ulster Bank. If a person has payments, salaries or a Department of Social Protection payment going into that account, that person is more reliant. Let us face it, unless there is something going in, it is very hard to make payments out. If payments are not going into that account and into another one, again reliance is even less. If the balance is extremely low, a person will not pay the ESB or electricity bill out of that. Again, the reliance is even less in that case. However, we accept there is a qualified judgment on our part in relation to those numbers of transactions, which is why we have the additional step of being able to reverse the freeze within 15 minutes if the customer states they are still reliant. However, at that point we have the conversation with the customers as to how much support and time they need and whether we can get them an appointment in the other banks. We invite them into our branch where we have Bank of Ireland, AIB and Permanent TSB in the banking hall and ask whether we can get it done for them. That is a very important step to get attention for customers who, bear in mind, have had six months’ notice and any number of contacts. Rather than jump straight to closing the account completely, irrespective of the numbers, we have introduced this step.

We have done two things for customers who are reliant on their account and have two sources of data on that. We have been talking to those customers and they are telling us they are banked elsewhere. We have also researched separately to verify that fact. We know that 80% of the customers who are heavily banked have a bank account elsewhere. We know 96% of them know their account will be closed and 91% are telling us they will take action within the next four weeks. What we have seen over the past two weeks in terms of the changes on the numbers of accounts that are opened and closed, that are not reliant, that have no balance, or that are heavily reliant actually bears that out. We want to avoid a situation where we are closing accounts where customers are reliant on them. However, we have told customers that if they leave the account, we will close it for them. We have said that we would do that and we need to finish that process for customers. However, the objective is to make sure there is no reliance on the account. If there is reliance, we can reverse that very quickly and engage with the customer. We need to keep the momentum going in terms the overall journeys for customers.

Of the 5,400 who have some level of activity on the account, as things stand, if nothing changes between now and two weeks from Friday, how many of those accounts will be closed or suspended?

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

I think those numbers will change again.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

They changed over the weekend and they will change again. I would say we will be in the region of around 1,000. Based on where we are today, that is not an unreasonable assumption. These are customers who have no inbound payment, very low or no balance and have had the full notice period. If any of those 1,000 is still reliant, even if it is one transaction going in, although it will not be an inbound payment form the Department of Social Protection, and if they are telling us their reliance is still there, we will then have the conversation with them.

Ms Arnett expects that 1,000 of this type of account will be frozen. Is that correct? Obviously the inactive ones will be frozen.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

Yes, we expect that. We will continue to outreach to anybody above that in terms of activity. We will not put them into the freeze-and-close process.

There are 5,400 with some level of activity that have not been closed. If Ms Arnett expects that 1,000 will be frozen two weeks from Friday, how many does she expect will close between now and then?

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

Right now, the closure rate is about 4,000 a day across the entire population.

Everyone has got letters at this stage.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

We have had 10% increase in the number of closures in these particular tranches week on week.

Perhaps I will frame the question another way. Of the 5,400 that have some level of activity that have a deadline of two weeks from Friday, how many of them will still be open after the deadline but Ulster Bank will not freeze for the reasons that have been outlined by Ms Arnett?

Ms Jane Howard

It will be about 4,000 that we will not put a freeze on because we can see that there is still activity on the account and we believe they are still reliant on it. As Ms Arnett said, as every day passes, we are seeing customers reduce the activity on their accounts. We are managing that and, as one would expect, looking at it very closely. In the past two weeks it went down 34% in terms of just high-active customers. All of the sudden, they can see the deadline is coming, which is what the research told us, and they then actually reduced the activity on their account substantially. That could be moving their salary, direct debits, standing orders or point of sale on cards – all sorts of transactions.

Does Ms Howard expect this trend to continue throughout the whole process? We are only talking about the April ones. If you were sitting down to do this, you would hope these numbers would be very different. Ms Howard said Ulster Bank will not freeze roughly 4,000 accounts because there is some level of activity and it will probably freeze 1,000 of them. That is one third of all accounts the bank issued the letters for in April. That is a lot of accounts.

Ms Jane Howard

We are not freezing one third.

No. Ulster Bank is likely to be freezing 1,000.

Ms Jane Howard

Out of 17,000.

There are 4,000 that have passed their deadlines that Ulster Bank will not freeze because it needs to engage further.

Ms Jane Howard

We will continue the outreach to those customers. However, what we expect to happen from current trends is we will see they are just taking a little bit longer. As a week goes by, they will reduce again. We can see this every week. Customers go from high active, to medium active, to low active to no activity at all. That is what we are typically seeing from our customers.

What will happen to accounts that have overdrafts that Ulster Bank will freeze?

Ms Jane Howard

In terms of our overdraft customers, obviously we recognise that some of these customers may be concerned. First of all, in October of last year, we reached out to about 1,000 of them where we felt they might need support because of heavy reliance on their overdraft. In recent weeks, we have sent a text message to about 30,000. We do not think they have heavy reliance or that they are in financial difficulty, but it is just to see whether they were sorting out their accounts with another provider and whether they needed any support or time.

On the insights on where we are, we have about 58,000 customers with an arranged overdraft and we have seen that reduce significantly. What we have seen as they have opened accounts elsewhere is they have got an arranged overdraft with another bank. They are good for the credit. They are not the problem or the ones we need to be concerned about. We also have about 39,000 customers who have an unarranged overdraft. Typically, that is somebody dipping in and out of an overdraft within a month and for less than €100.

In terms of the customers we are concerned about and on the question of what happens if they have not cleared their overdraft when the six-month period comes to an end, we will write out to them. Obviously, we are contacting them all the way throughout.

We will write to those customers again at that time to see if they need a further 60 days either to clear the overdraft or to contact us if they require additional support. As the committee will be aware from previous conversations about us helping mortgage customers, for example, we have 200 specialist staff whose job is to help customers in financial difficulty to see if they can restructure the debt. It might be the case that some customers need to restructure that debt as a reducing loan. It might be that they need help with refinancing but-----

How many of the account holders who have a deadline of two weeks from Friday have an overdraft, whether arranged or unarranged?

Ms Jane Howard

We will not be freezing the account of any customer with an overdraft in the next-----

Yes. How many have-----

Ms Jane Howard

I do not have that figure to hand. I can come back to the Deputy with it.

Ms Jane Howard

However, we are not freezing any of those accounts.

Ms Howard has said that Ulster Bank has extended the deadline because of social welfare payments. Does Ulster Bank expect to have to extend the deadline for the double payment at Christmas or is this a once-off provision?

Ms Jane Howard

We do not expect to do that.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

We have been engaging heavily with the Department of Social Protection throughout the year and our intention has always been to keep an eye on that double payment at Christmas. However, as a result of the budget, there was a range of additional double payments across the months of October and November. We paused to understand the number of accounts that will be impacted. In the meantime, we have developed the capability to extract recipients of payments from the Department of Social Protection as we go. The challenge is that if customers have never received a payment from the Department of Social Protection, we do not know that they are in receipt of a one-off emergency payment. We must watch around the edges of that.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

That matter definitely is in our sights.

Some people are finding it difficult to transfer to other banks. Those include people with health issues and mobility issues who are unable to visit a branch. Some have sought power of attorney, which is a costly issue. What support is the bank giving its customers in that regard?

Customers without current valid photographic identification are also finding it difficult. That problem affects elderly people but not exclusively. Some people are without valid photographic identification because their passports are out of date or they no longer have a driving licence, which may be the case for some older people. How is the bank giving support for such people?

Ms Jane Howard

The first thing I would say is if there is anybody-----

May I ask one final question because I know the Chair will not let me back in? This is a tangential issue in respect of tracker mortgages. The Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, FSPO, is dealing with a large number of cases as a result of legislation that I brought in to allow for the timeframe to be waived and to allow for people to take action beyond the initial time limit. How many complaints relating to tracker mortgages are before the FSPO in respect of Ulster Bank products? How many of those decisions are currently being appealed by the bank?

Ms Jane Howard

I am not going to comment on cases before the courts. I will come back to the Deputy with the precise number of complaints relating to tracker mortgages that are before the FSPO. I do not have that number to hand but I do have it.

Will Ms Howard also share the number of appeals? I do not need the details but would like to know how many there are.

Ms Jane Howard

I will come back to the Deputy on that point.

I thank Ms Howard. Perhaps she would respond to my other questions.

Ms Jane Howard

We have enormous supports in place to help customers. The Deputy mentioned a couple of categories of customers but there are other customers who also have different challenges. We have invested heavily in a team to support them. Ms Arnett might speak a little about the specific measures we have put in place.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

I will respond specifically to the question the Deputy asked about power of attorney. We have reviewed approximately 400 cases of very vulnerable customers and power of attorney is an issue that often arises. Where we can and where we are very confident that there is not a customer safety issue or a question of financial vulnerability, we can work with - it would be wrong to use the word "bypass" - the customer and his or her family, and the other bank, to ensure we are moving the money into a single name account, into the other bank, without having to go through the costly process of attaining power of attorney. Equally, we have found customers where power of attorney would have been granted in the UK. We will obviously not make the customer go through that process here. We are taking a pragmatic approach but customer safety is at the heart of it.

The Deputy also asked more broadly about other supports for customers who might have difficulties. One of the issues we came across related to residents in nursing homes. There are approximately 600 nursing homes, private and public, in Ireland, and we have given them the direct contact details of somebody in our local branch or our local area manager, who will work with any patient of a nursing home who needs additional support. A local person can go into a nursing home and resolve the issues. We have a customer support line, which is open seven days a week and which has received approximately 8,000 calls. We have had contact with approximately 70,000 vulnerable customers. We have done a large outreach to the stakeholders, including Safeguarding Ireland, etc., that represent vulnerable customers. They have been helpful in giving us a practical compass as to how to respond to customers without putting obstacles in the way, while also maintaining the absolute integrity of the financial safety and security of the individuals in question. Our colleagues on the front line in our branches have been trained. As I said, representatives of other financial institutions have come into our branches. That has worked quite well in putting branch users in contact with-----

What about the issue in respect of valid photographic identification?

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

Photographic identification is more of a requirement to open an account so that is more of an issue for the other banks. A lot of work has been done within Banking and Payments Federation Ireland, BPFI, and the other banks to ensure it is practical to bypass rigid requirements while staying within the strict guidelines around knowing your customer, KYC, and all of that. BPFI recently issued a guide for vulnerable customers in which these types of issues have been addressed. Where possible, a very practical approach is being taken. However, there are some fundamental and underlying issues that require a very close eye to ensure the protection of customers.

I thank our guests for their submissions. I have questions for the representatives of both institutions but might start with Mr. Jansen to give Ms Arnett and Ms Howard a break. Their interactions with Deputy Doherty were intense, even as an onlooker. I thank him for his forensic analysis. I want to pick up on the point Mr. Jansen made about the fact that the estimates are now different to the ones that were made in May, when KBC stated that 52,000 customers would need to open a new account and close their KBC accounts. That figure has now come down to 39,000. Mr. Jansen mentioned that fact, but I would like an explanation as to why that estimate has changed.

Mr. Frank Jansen

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Lennon, to deal with that question.

Mr. Darragh Lennon

It is not that our estimates have changed; it is that customers have moved or closed their accounts. The balances of those accounts have gone to zero and the activity in those accounts has gone. The number has reduced from 52,000 to 39,000, which is a positive thing. We are four months into a 14-month process and the number of customers we see as needing another account or needing to undertake significant switching activity has reduced by approximately 25% in those first four months. We are seeing good traction every week, as Mr. Jansen mentioned in his opening statement, around the moving of direct debits. That number is dropping by approximately 3,000 per week and we now have approximately 135,000 direct debits attaching to any of our current accounts. That is down from well over 200,000 when we started this process. Overall, from an underlying activity perspective, we are seeing customers actively moving their accounts.

Mr. Lennon has answered my question about direct debits before I got to ask it so I will move on. I will ask the following of both institutions. Engagement with utility companies and third parties in the whole area of direct debit switching is something that has come up quite a bit. While people may have switched their accounts, they are having difficulty switching over their direct debits with various utility companies, which I will not name. What engagement have the banks had with the utility companies and other entities over direct debits? How can we speed up the process? It is one thing to move an account but if a direct debit does not move over, as Deputy Doherty alluded to, that is where the difficulties arise.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

The Deputy is absolutely right. We are very conscious of the fact that our withdrawal put a lot of emphasis and pressure on other stakeholders, other banks and the direct debit originators because a customer cannot fully complete the journey without the support of those stakeholders. We started a very early process of engagement across the industry. We were all involved in that. We brought in what we considered the top 20 direct debit originators, including the large utility companies, the telephone service providers and the insurance providers, to inform them of our plans and the number of accounts coming through. We have, by and large, seen a very positive response from those service providers, making it much easier for customers to change their details online or over the phone, and just having the information to hand for customers. In the past four weeks, BPFI hosted a session with direct debit originators to attempt to check how things are going. Direct debit originators that started early are further ahead in their engagement, it would be fair to say. Those are more in the energy provider space. I think those companies are more tuned in. Perhaps that is unfair because it would imply that others are not, but those companies engaged with us on these issues from a very early stage of the process.

We have seen a huge decrease in the number of direct debit transactions across the board, not just in the early tranches. We have seen the levels come down. We have not come across any situation where it is prohibitively difficult for customers to make the changes. If customers do have issues, we raise them directly through our engagement with the Banking and Payments Federation Ireland, BPFI, which is engaging with the direct debit originators. There is nothing I can point to that could be described as a blocker in terms of the issues and concerns.

Initially there was a concern that if everybody used the switcher process, it might be a challenge for direct debit originators, but we are finding that most customers are driving the process themselves, with about 10% using the switcher process and using it effectively. One of the concerns we have is that customers who do not close their accounts may not fully conclude their direct debit processes. They might assume we are going to close the account but the direct debit will not get taken from the account. There could be unintended consequences if an account is left open, so we are watching those sorts of things to make sure that does not happen.

In terms of payments in, the big one according to our engagements is the Department of Social Protection. As I said earlier, we are about 85% of the way there, but as we move on in that process, we are going to see more and more vulnerable customers who have not made the change and we are going to work very closely with the Department to resolve that with them. We have exchanged data and the Department is contacting customers directly whose notice period is coming to an end. The contact from us and from the Department is proving to be very effective. Over the weekend, for example, another 2,000 accounts moved on. It is a work in progress and the broader external communications campaign supports all of that. In the later tranches, we are seeing customers starting to make changes earlier in the journey. We just need to stay on it and be there to support customers as much as we can.

Ms Jane Howard

I would like to add a point or two on that. We started our formal letter campaign six months ago and almost every customer has now been issued with his or her six months' notice. Those who have not have been written to separately. It has been orderly although I absolutely accept that customers had to go out of their way to get new bank accounts. That time and effort is absolutely appreciated, but as we sit here today, more than 50% of our customers have either closed their account or have started to wind it down considerably to very few transactions. On the question of whether there is a problem with direct debits, the data show they have reduced by more than 50%, our standing orders have reduced by more than 55% and our point of sale transactions have reduced by just over 50%. All of the indicators are telling us that over 50% of the customers have either completed the journey of choosing a new bank, moving and closing or are well on the way to completing it.

What are the actual numbers there?

Ms Jane Howard

Our direct debits have gone from about 1 million to under 500,000. We had 440,000 standing orders and now we have 200,000. The point of sale transactions have gone from 12 million to 6 million. These would include things like people tapping to pay for a coffee and so on. All of our indicators tell us what we are also hearing from our customers and from independent research, which is that customers are well on the way. In terms of accounts being opened at other banks and in terms of customers having closed or wound down their accounts, we are at over 50%. It has been orderly and we want those trends and the momentum to continue. We want to continue to do this in an orderly fashion.

Mr. Darragh Lennon

To add to that in relation to the direct debits, we are engaged in similar industry initiatives. I will not run through them again but what we have seen is that when direct debit originators proactively communicate with their customers, that is very effective. When they approach their customers, point out they are paying a direct debit from a KBC or Ulster Bank account and ask them to take action, that is very effective. We have seen that with the Department of Social Protection in particular, which has conducted a really strong campaign with customers. We have seen our social welfare payments dropping by 35% in the first four months of our programme, which is very positive, and 90% of what we have left are child benefit payments. That is a positive as well in that the likelihood of vulnerability is lessening as we get through those. Some of the bigger utilities have done great work in terms of contacting their customers directly and asking them to close their accounts. When they do that, it definitely has a massive and positive impact. We are encouraging that through the BPFI groups, which meet every two weeks, and through our own engagements. We did an industry briefing where we brought all of the direct debit originators together two weeks ago. We are trying to share our plans with them so that they understand when these letters are going to reach customers and when the closures are going to hit next year. We are trying to keep them as well informed as possible so that we can make sure, as Ms Howard said, that this is a very orderly process.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

There is one other point on that. The Central Bank has been clear in its instruction to the industry. If, for example, a customer misses an insurance payment because of a mismatch in terms of moving accounts, there will not be a break in cover for that customer. Equally, if there is a missed payment on a loan because that payment got lost in the system during the changing of accounts, customers will not be automatically added to the credit register. These are important measures to make sure customers are protected as they are transitioning.

I thank our guests for coming before us again today. In her opening statement on behalf of Ulster Bank, Ms Howard said the bank is "committed to dealing with our non-performing loans in the later stages of our withdrawal, to allow customers who are in difficulty as much time and support as possible to return to a performing position". What kind of engagement is the bank having with those people? I am concerned that those whose loans were already non-performing prior to the enormous increase in the cost of living will potentially be finding it even more difficult at this point. What is the plan for those non-performing loans if they remain non-performing at the point of closure?

Ms Jane Howard

Unfortunately, I did not fully hear what the Deputy said at the beginning, so if I do not fully answer the question, I ask her to let me know. The decision to leave non-performing customers until later in the process was very deliberate. We were working very hard with those customers through case clinics to see how we could get them onto a performing basis, and that was very successful. What we wanted to do was get them reperforming so that they would be in the sale, either to PTSB or to AIB, in line with the transactions we have agreed.

Does that mean only those that are performing will move or will the non-performing ones move too?

Ms Jane Howard

Only performing and reperforming loans will move. We put them to the end of the process because we knew we had hundreds of customers who were reperforming and it was very important we kept them reperforming so that they would go to either AIB or PTSB and not into a non-performing loan sale. We have done that as far as possible.

There will, of course, be some loans that remain non-performing. What is going to happen to them? What impact will it have on those customers in terms of paying back their loan and their credit rating?

Ms Jane Howard

Ultimately, we will have to do a non-performing loan sale. We have said we will endeavour to do that towards the end of next year. Those customers whose loans are non-performing still have their protections in place today but that time will come. We have tried to help as many customers as possible to reach performing status but those who cannot get back to that status will ultimately form part of a non-performing loan sale.

That will be of huge concern for people. Some of my constituents have had their loans sold on and they have received very threatening letters from companies and so on. Those letters did not have any legal standing. In one particular case, such a letter arrived a week after a member of the person's family was buried. I am quite concerned about this. Ms Howard said protections remain in place, but what does she mean by that? How will this affect people's credit rating? What protections can Ulster Bank provide to these people if it sells off their loans in a non-performing loan sale?

Ms Jane Howard

The protections available to customers under the CBI regulation remain in place. That should include the way and manner in which customers are approached, regardless of who the provider is. On the credit rating, if somebody has reached a non-performing loan status it is going to impact their credit rating. We are very open with customers about that, which is why we have spent time with specialist people to try to get customers into a re-performing position.

Okay. I thank the officials. The crucial point from me is the reality we see when we are dealing with constituents whose non-performing loan is sold is they are not dealt with in a respectful manner. They are sent letters that can be really upsetting. I am very concerned about how that is going to impact on people, especially given the situation at the moment with the rising cost of living, inflation and all of that. I would love to talk about it more but unfortunately I have to leave to go to the Dáil.

I join with the Chairman on these particular issues. I welcome our guests and thank them for coming before the committee. What did it cost NatWest or Ulster Bank to close down? There was a cost, I assume.

Ms Jane Howard

I do not have the facts in front of me but I think that is commercial information we would probably not share with the committee. I am sorry. I am not being difficult.

I am not so sure about that, Chairman. It would be helpful to us, so the question stands. There had to be a cost to either NatWest or Ulster Bank. Who funded it and what was it? That is one question. Second, there was obviously a cost to customers due to disruption of service, closure, trying to meet deadlines and so on and so forth. Third, we all heard about the time we were encouraged to seek alternative services, which we essentially had to do ourselves. Nobody from any of the banks said we have decided to transfer your account, if it necessary and if it is acceptable, to bank X, Y or Z. In that case it could have been done with the press of a button and no more waiting, queuing, asking questions, bills for outstanding issues and so on and so forth. Ulster Bank has been helpful in trying to resolve these but it did not stop the gurus in the system from resurrecting themselves from time to time and attempting to exert their influence. Some of that is going to remain, to put it mildly, in the closure of accounts. Will the customers all get a closing statement on each account?

Ms Jane Howard

Yes.

Ms Jane Howard

Each customer gets a closing statement. They do not have to request it as we automatically send a closing statement.

When will that issue?

Ms Jane Howard

It issues when the account actually closes.

I can only tell Ms Howard that is not happening.

Ms Jane Howard

Let me check on that because that is supposed to happen automatically.

Ms Jane Howard

People do not even have to request it. Just to be clear, if any customer needs other statements, such as where they have an overdraft with us and want to get one with another bank, then they may need to provide statements to show how their account has worked. We make it clear to those customers they might want to get three months' worth of statements to take so they can go to another bank. I will follow up on the point on the closing statements because that should be happening.

Customers would have no objection to that at all, in order to assist in a speedy and efficient transfer, but again it does not always work that way. New requests for further information have the habit of resurrecting from time to time.

Deputy Doherty raised overdrafts. Some customers have traditionally had overdrafts for years, that they have or have not used as the case may be. As I did not get the answer too clearly, what provision has been made for these customers when they move to a new bank? Do they get the same as they did in the previous institution or is it all up in the air and for the new bank to decide on?

Ms Jane Howard

It is the responsibility of the new bank to make the decision. It would have to do that to be in line with the guidelines from the Central Bank. It is important everybody follows those guidelines to keep customers safe. If a customer is good for the credit, namely, they have a good financial history with us and can show that, there is no reason they would not get the overdraft limit they have with Ulster Bank or KBC today. There are some customers - they are the 1,000 I referred to before - we think may need more help but we will work with those customers. We have reached out to them and asked them to contact us so our specialist people in our collections area can help them if they are in financial difficulty. The same applies to everybody, really, who has a debt in financial difficulty. That could be an overdraft, a credit card or mortgages, as we talked about earlier. With anybody in financial difficulty we constantly reach out and say "come and talk to us and let us see how we can help you". If somebody is good for the credit, with a good credit rating and no history of defaulting on any debts, there is no reason they would not get the overdraft they have with Ulster Bank today from another bank, but that receiving bank must follow the guidelines.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

To add to that on business customers, we have, as members know, a portfolio sale of commercial loans going to AIB. We have a facility now that if the customer opens their current account with AIB then the overdraft can be moved automatically. We also have some business loans for smaller businesses moving to Permanent TSB and we have in place a process that makes it easier for the application. We give the customer a code and it goes into the Permanent TSB system and much of the information flows automatically across. It does not guarantee the overdraft for the customer because Permanent TSB assesses on the other side but it certainly makes it easier for business customers for those lines of credit.

There is obviously an end in sight with this issue. There is a difference in the interest rate charged in that some replacement banks receiving the accounts say "sorry, we do not do overdrafts but we will give you a credit card". What they do not say immediately is that credit card will cost you 15%, 17%, 21% or whatever the case may be. The customer has no choice in the matter. It is not really replacing the service the customer had with a new one, hence there is a negative from the customer's point of view. I would have thought particular effort would be made for business and personal account holders to try to continue as they previously were. I am not talking about accounts that are in disorder, difficulty, stressed or whatever the case may be. I am talking about accounts in general, accounts that are in good order and whether or not any effort can be made to address those issues because there is a negative from the point of view of the customer if there is only one alternative and it costs between 5% and 8% more. Why should it be that way?

Ms Jane Howard

Ms Arnett addressed the business customers, who are being dealt with in a different way. On the personal customers, I cannot comment, and it would not be right for me to comment, on what other banks and financial institutions do. However, a customer should not be forced down a particular route, whether it is a credit card or an overdraft. We all have regulations under conduct to ensure we look after customers. If a customer has an overdraft and it is the right product for them then that is the product that should be given to them. All banks must follow the conduct rules to ensure the customers have the right product. If the Deputy has individual cases it would be appropriate for them to be referred to the particular bank in hand.

I speak with some authority on that whole area------

Ms Jane Howard

Yes.

-----and I can assure Ms Howard that is happening. It should not happen and I realise it should not but there is a positive for the incoming bank if the customer is moved from an overdraft at 2.5%, 3% or whatever it was to suddenly one of almost 20% and rising. I therefore ask that be borne in mind and that perhaps in the exchanges the officials have with the receiving banks, they would be reminded of that as well. All things being equal, we expect to be treated with a certain amount of equality.

Ms Howard and Ms Arnett have been helpful in dealing with queries that I should not have to raise with them. They should be dealt with by making a simple call instead of waiting on a line somewhere where if you want such and such a service you, press one; if you want another service, press two; if you want a further service, press three; and so on indefinitely. I am not saying it is only their bank that does this; many other institutions do it as well. Eventually, somebody says "Thank you, goodbye." Representing customers and you tell them that is the response you get, it does not go down too well.

Ms Jane Howard

We will raise the point the Deputy mentioned about customers potentially getting the wrong product with the BPFI. We will pick it up when we meet with that body this week.

And the closing statements relating to each account.

Ms Jane Howard

I will check on the closing statements anyway. That is for us. It is our issue.

The Chairman will be delighted with this one. I like this one. This is an interesting one. It is where the account does not close despite an indication that it has done so. There was some little tail-end left hanging in the wilderness still outstanding. It could be anything. The customer presumes the account is closed and walks off about his or her business, suddenly to get a bill for a small amount - in one case brought to my attention it was a terribly small amount, like pence or cents - and a fee for late payment. When I heard that ,I was not moved to mirth because it is the original bureaucrat's idea of walking away and saying, "But you didn't think of this coming." If unresponded to by the customer after a month, there is another late payment. Now there is a deficit that has to be paid, a liability that the customer has to pay through no fault of his or her own.

Ms Jane Howard

If that was us, that is unacceptable. We would not expect the customer to pay. That is an error on our part and we would reimburse them for that and close the account appropriately. We will look into it to make sure. I have not seen any complaints on that but we will check that we do not have that issue.

Ms Howard has a complaint now.

Ms Jane Howard

I have heard the Deputy. Clearly that is an error on our part, if it was us that he refers to.

The same applies to KBC Bank. Are provisions being made in a similar fashion to avoid penalties on the unsuspecting customer, particularly longstanding older customers who may not have the time, energy or interest to follow the daily activities of the banking system?

Mr. Frank Jansen

The Deputy is absolutely right and, therefore, we have decided to stop charging any late payments from the end of November because that is when we start closing accounts. We have received some customer complaints on that and have rectified that, without any doubt. I appreciate the comment that we should have worked on that earlier; therefore we have changed that. Moreover, we are not charging any maintenance fees on accounts since June. That is a charge we cannot make customers incur.

Mr. Darragh Lennon

It is in our process that if there is a small negative balance on an account, we do not ask the customer to that effect. It just gets closed.

That is in favour of whom - the customer or the bank?

Mr. Darragh Lennon

It is in favour of the customer.

I worry about that. There is a feeling we get from time to time that some things get forgotten. Is that a possibility?

Mr. Darragh Lennon

We are adapting all the time to what is happening in this process. It is new for us all. As we move through the process, we are responding to what is happening with customers and adjusting ourselves as we go as quickly as possible.

Mr. Frank Jansen

To assure the Deputy on the small amounts that remain in customer accounts, we are engaging with customers but they will ultimately have to come and take their money and move it wherever they want to move it. We have an engagement and even an obligation to keep that money safe for customers. We have an agreement with Bank of Ireland that all these small amounts will be transferred at the end of the year, after all current accounts have been closed, to Bank of Ireland so that, even in the long future, customers can still recover even the smallest amounts that the Deputy referred to.

Regarding legal processes KBC is engaged in relating to outstanding loans or vulture funds where customers took court action and the court found in their favour, are there outstanding cases to be resolved or outstanding decisions by the court resulting in KBC having to pay a customer? Does it owe customers any money from court processes? Has it paid everyone?

Mr. Frank Jansen

If a legal process has been concluded against us and we have been condemned to make payments, of course we will make those payments. We have committed to keeping accountability for those cases in the future. This is a commitment we have taken and which, I can confirm, we take for the future.

How often does KBC engage with its legal representatives on such issues, on how they conduct themselves in court or on how they process such claims or payments to be made by the bank to the customer?

Mr. Frank Jansen

We should make a distinction between payments to be made. Once there is a judgment by the court, it is our obligation and we will make those payments swiftly.

Will the witnesses address the timeframe between the decision of the court and the instruction by the bank's legal representatives to the bank to pay the money?

Mr. Frank Jansen

I would have to look into that.

My information is there is one case, if not more, where the legal firms representing the bank are dragging their heels and that money is due to be paid to clients arising from those cases or the contribution to legal fees. I would like to know before KBC leaves the country. I know it will pay and presume it will honour the court decision but I am worried about the time it is taking for the legal advisers to inform the bank to pay the customer. If it has reached that point and a decision has been made, it means the customer and bank have been through the courts for a lengthy period. Are there such cases? Can the witnesses check with their legal representatives to ensure they are clearing their desks in respect of this, the bank is being told in a timely fashion what has to be paid and is, in a timely fashion, paying customers? I will not raise the particular case but I understand there were a few cases like that. It had to do with properties in County Kerry.

Mr. Frank Jansen

We will certainly do that and come back to the Chairman on that.

Thank you very much. On the sale of loans to vulture funds, is KBC finished with that end of the transactions? Has it completed the sale of all loans to vulture funds or does it envisage more such sales?

Mr. Frank Jansen

We have not made the final decision on that because we do not know the final outcome of the loans remaining by the time we leave the market. We have started an intense engagement programme with all customers that have debts outstanding. Maybe Mr. Kieran can explain what we are doing there.

Mr. Dermot Kieran

We have a very low non-performing loan ratio of just 3% of our overall loan balances. Our non-performing loans are also part of the transaction with Bank of Ireland. Those non-performing customers will move across to Bank of Ireland as part of that. We have not yet made a definitive position on any balances that remain. We are very conscious of treating all of our customers fairly but we have not made-----

I raised that because as soon as the bank transfers a loan to a vulture fund, "fairly" goes out of it and it becomes very difficult for the customer to deal with the vulture fund. I wish to see no shortcuts being taken in transferring an account or selling a loan to a vulture fund, without first exhausting every avenue with the customer to see whether the matter can be resolved, in order that there is less and less difficulty for a customer. I have no trust in the vulture funds. I wish to be clear about that. Once a customer gets in there, one starts to lose control of the management of one's property or loan. It is much better if it is dealt with by the bank in the fair way that you describe.

Mr. Dermot Kieran

I assure you that we have commenced the process for long overdue balances, where the property has been sold and a balance remains. We reach out to and engage with those customers to try to find a fair resolution to the debt.

When KBC Bank finally closes and leaves the country, all of its transactions will have been made. It will not take any baggage with it. That baggage will be left with some bank or other or will be sold to another fund. KBC Bank will be completely closed down and there will be no need for a customer to contact the bank after it leaves the country.

Mr. Frank Jansen

We have taken the obligation to deal with what we call contingent cases. Those are remaining cases that have not been resolved in the meantime. We will continue, directly or indirectly, to serve and take the responsibility for them and there will a very precise contact point in Ireland to deal with those cases.

KBC Bank will keep up that direct-----

Mr. Frank Jansen

Absolutely.

-----contact with customers who remain on its books, for whatever reason, after closure.

Mr. Frank Jansen

Yes.

An issue has now arisen for all of those who are considered to be politically exposed persons in that when their accounts are transferred from KBC Bank or Ulster Bank, the receiving bank begins to ask all of the appropriate questions arising from the legislation. People are experiencing the fact that they are a politically exposed person and its consequences for the first time, especially politicians at local level who would not have had to go through that when they have had an account with Ulster Bank or KBC Bank. What is happening with those customers? Do I take it that when they move to another bank, in spite of having a record with either one of your banks, they then have to go through all of the processes for politically exposed persons?

Ms Jane Howard

Ulster Bank identified that the process for those customers could be more difficult because the new bank had to make sure that everything was in order. However, we did an early outreach to those customers.

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

We ascertained as best we could who would fall into that category and I think there were a couple of hundred such customers before we started the process of formally writing to customers. We did so just to make sure it was on their radar that there is a lengthy process and to give them information as to the sort of documentation that would be required, in order that they did not get caught starting the process when the letter came from us and maybe run out of time. Opening the account on the other side is really a matter for the other bank, but we did best endeavours to flag this with customers as early as we possibly could.

A long-standing customer of Ulster Bank, who is categorised as a politically exposed person, has to go through the process with the new bank of opening that account as the politically exposed person, regardless of how many years he or she has spent with your bank. Is that correct?

Ms Elizabeth Arnett

Yes.

Is the bank with which politically exposed persons are attempting to open their account open to receiving such an account? Have you come across problems with your current customers being able to open an account with another bank? It seems to be the issue for those involved in politics or senior civil servants. They are now experiencing all of the difficulties in opening a bank account.

Ms Jane Howard

We have not had any feedback but, if that is an issue, we are happy to understand it and we should take such an issue through the BPFI.

Ms Jane Howard

Banking and Payments Federation Ireland. It gets the banks together. I have not heard that somebody has had a problem with opening an account. I absolutely recognise it is more difficult for those customers because they have to provide more information, but they have had to provide more information to their existing bank as well.

As with everything, many of the people concerned leave it until the last minute and then discover that they have an issue in changing banks.

Ms Jane Howard

That is why we reached out early to explain the process to them. We have not heard about such a problem but we will raise it.

I ask that you take it into consideration.

Ms Jane Howard

We will.

Ulster Banks has 200 such customers. Does KBC Bank have any?

Mr. Darragh Lennon

I do not have an exact number but we can certainly get back to you with the information. I believe the number to be very small.

Has KBC Bank carried out the same process of reaching out to that group?

Mr. Darragh Lennon

We have not done so but we can certainly take that up. It is still early in our process.

It appears not to be simple and it is becoming a considerable issue. Deputies Doherty and Durkan mentioned that they have direct debits and payments going through their accounts. There is nothing wrong, except that this the process is completely new. My experience having spoken to a number of banks is that they do not really want politically exposed persons, because the Central Bank will ask for that information first and foremost when the banks are examined. We have become a breed of political animal that no one wants to own.

Will Ulster Bank and KBC Bank confirm that those customers who are marginalised for one reason or another and are finding it hard to cope with the dates, such as elderly people, will be treated fairly? I ask that the banks reach out to them to make sure that they are covered in their transfer from either one of your banks to the new bank.

Ms Jane Howard

We have been actively reaching out to elderly customers. Not all elderly customers are vulnerable and I do not wish for anybody to think that is how we think of them. However, we recognised that elderly customers may have had their bank account with us for a long time and, therefore, changing could be a bigger issue for them. What we have seen - interestingly - is that our older customers were the first to move and to complete the process. We have actually seen more of them move than our category of age 25 to 45. They seemed to take action earlier and more swiftly but, nonetheless, we have reached out to them. We will have some customers who definitely are vulnerable and older such as customers in a nursing home. That is why we are reaching out to them in different ways. There are different types of vulnerability, among which is age.

One of the vulnerabilities could be technology. The more the banks reach out to them, the better.

Ms Jane Howard

Yes.

I asked Mr. Jansen about legal cases-----

Ms Jane Howard

I am not aware that we have that problem but we made a note when the Chair asked it.

I appreciate both banks having come in to give us an update.

Mr. Jansen needs to take team Ulster Bank out for lunch or something because it bore a heavy burden here today. Deputy Doherty put it through its paces.

Mr. Frank Jansen

I will do that, with pleasure. I noticed that, between the two teams, there is a good gender balance.

There is indeed. I thank the witnesses for coming in.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.20 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 October 2022.
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