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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Wednesday, 3 May 2023

Examination of EU Fiscal Rules: TASC

We have a quorum for our meeting with TASC to discuss the examination of EU fiscal rules. On behalf of the committee I welcome Dr. Robert Sweeney and Dr. Rosa Canelli, one present in the room and the other joining via video link.

Witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected pursuant to the constitutional statute by absolute privilege. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the person or to the entity's good name. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I invite Dr. Sweeney to make his opening remarks.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

I thank the committee for the invitation to present some of our thoughts on the fiscal rules and the findings of our report. The EU fiscal rules are one of the most important aspects, if not the most important aspect, of EU economic policy making. Over the years, they have grown more complicated and difficult to understand, have often been breached by member states, and have proven inadequate at preventing the emergence of sovereign crises. It is unanimously agreed that they are in need of major reform.

The original rule that government debt to GDP should not exceed 60% and that the government deficit should not exceed 3% was arbitrary and not grounded in economic analysis or evidence. The value of 60% reflected the average value prevailing among member states when the rules were first formulated in the 1980s. Given certain assumptions about inflation and growth, a 3% deficit rule emerged if debt was to be stabilised at 60%. A number of reforms were subsequently added, especially after the financial crisis. A debt reduction rule was introduced specifying the speed of debt reduction while also giving force to the structural deficit, which is the deficit that is independent of the business cycle. An expenditure benchmark was also introduced, which limits government spending based on the growth in potential output.

As we detail in our report, the structural deficit suffers from severe measurement problems. The expenditure benchmark, while slightly better than a structural balance rule, is also problematic. Adhering to the debt reduction rule, whereby states have to reduce debt by one twentieth of the difference between the current debt and the target 60% level, would also be very problematic and generate significant austerity in many countries in Europe. A return to normal would make it very difficult for Europe to meet its emissions targets.

On 9 November 2022, the Commission published a communication on reform of the EU fiscal rules. The main thrust is that member states would negotiate country-specific debt reduction plans with the Commission. For member states where debt is deemed to be risky, debt is to converge towards 60% over the course of a decade, with the 3% deficit rule also remaining in place. The Commission would first conduct an analysis and then put forward a "reference adjustment path", which constitutes the initial position. Member states would then respond by proposing medium-term fiscal adjustment plans. These would set out country-specific fiscal trajectories and public investment and reform commitments, not least in the area of climate change. Once accepted, annual member-state budgets would then commit to implementing the planned fiscal trajectory over four years to ensure the ten-year debt trajectory is sustainable. Essentially, country-specific debt plans would be negotiated between member states and the Commission.

Last week the Commission clarified that countries in breach of the 60% and 3% limits will have to ensure that debt is on a downward path after four years or remain at prudent levels. It seems that debt will have to fall after four years. This means that after four years debt will have to be lower than what it was at the beginning of the programme. Net expenditure is also not to exceed the growth in potential output of the economy. For countries in breach of the 3% deficit rule, a fiscal adjustment of 0.5% per annum will be required. For countries with debt below 60% and deficits below 3% the Commission will issue guidance based on the structural deficit to ensure this remains the case.

That the main implementation indicator for countries in breach is to be net expenditure, as opposed to an unobservable and unmeasurable structural deficit, is positive. However, it should be noted that the structural balance is retained for low-risk countries. The abolition of the general one twentieth debt reduction is also welcome although it is disappointing that it has been replaced by a 0.5% rule for high-deficit countries and a short timeframe for debt reduction. Moreover, much will hinge on the initial reference adjustment path of the Commission and the debt sustainability analysis underpinning it. In November 2022 it was floated that there would be country-specific debt reduction plans but last week this was rolled back a little bit with stricter metrics and thresholds.

Our view is that the focus on debt and deficit is misplaced, especially in a period of low interest rates. When states borrow and the principal payment on that borrowing comes due, governments typically do not draw down or use their cash balances to repay the obligation. More commonly, they roll over the debt, issuing new debt to repay the old. Similarly, this new debt is likely to be rolled over in the future, and so on. It is, therefore, not so much the level of debt or size of the deficit per se that imposes an economic cost but the burden of servicing that debt. In an era of low interest rates the level of debt has become a poorer and poorer measure of financial unsustainability. The burden of servicing debt and the amount of debt accumulated have been diverging across member states of the EU, including Ireland.

A reformed fiscal rule set would ideally have the burden of servicing debt as its main anchor. A number of proposals have been forwarded, such as when the net debt burden exceeds 3% of GDP, corrective action should be taken. We are of course cognisant of the political realities of the EU, and such an overhaul is unlikely. Revising the debt limit to 100% would therefore be a welcome step. Similarly, setting up an EU climate investment fund to aid member states to meet their emissions targets would also be useful. Many other reforms have been proposed. This is a crucial juncture for the EU and its member states and we once again thank the committee for the invitation and look forward to the discussion.

I will be calling on Deputy Pearse Doherty, Senator Alice-Mary Higgins and Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh in that order.

I thank Dr. Sweeney for the presentation. In his paper, Dr. Sweeney suggests moving to a debt servicing cost as a benchmark of fiscal sustainability. How would that benchmark be anchored? Would it be as a percentage of GDP? Could Dr. Sweeney explain in greater detail he would like to have seen in relation to that?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

There are really two reasons why we advocate focusing on debt service. The first is conceptual. As I mentioned in the opening statement, when a government borrows, and has to repay the principal on that borrowing, it typically does not draw down its cash balances. It will issue another bond and the proceeds of that bond, then go to pay back the principal of the original borrowing. Subsequently, when that bond needs to be repaid, the government will issue another bond and so on. It constantly rolls over the debt so that governments typically do not have to pay back the principal on the debt that they continually roll over. Obviously they have to service the interest payments. Conceptually, it does not necessarily matter if a country has very high levels of debt if the burden of repaying that debt is very low. Particularly over the past 20 to 30 years as interest rates have fallen, the level of debt to GDP and the burden of servicing debt, that is, interest payments to GDP, have been diverging across member states. It is no longer the case that if one has high levels on debt, it is burdensome to service that debt. For those two reasons, that conceptual reason in that countries just continually roll over debt and the more empiric reason, in that the level of debt and the burden of servicing debt have been diverging, we advocate for anchoring the fiscal rules in terms of debt servicing or interest payments to GDP or GNI* in an Irish context.

A number of analyses have been done which look at what stage the burden of servicing debt risks financial unsustainability. That can be defined in a number of ways historically, looking at a financial crisis or one can avoid a financial crisis if one implements a lot of austerity. We looked at what level of debt servicing, beyond which one needs to take corrective action. Based on our analysis, and drawing together other analyses, it should be around 3% interest payments to GDP; beyond that corrective action is needed in terms of raising taxes or reducing government spending. There is no hard and fast rule there. Others will put it at 2.5% or some people might put it higher than 3%. I would not quibble with any of those analyses because there is always modelling certainty and so on. However, the main conclusion I would draw is that it should be anchored to the burden of servicing debt or interest payments to GDP, whatever that is. We propose 3%.

Debt servicing costs are relative to the interest rates that are being charged in relation to bonds. For example, Italy would have been paying 4% of GDP for their debt servicing costs. Does Dr. Sweeney believe that Italy is above the threshold and that it should be in a process of reduction?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Yes, ideally Italy would not have gotten to that stage in the first place. Yes, if one is beyond the threshold and what we are recommending is about 3%, whether in Italy or any other country, then corrective action needs to be taken.

Is it appropriate for Italy to fiscally contract at this point in time? Is that the outworking of the rules.? The criticism of the rules is that they are being counter-productive.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

What we recommend is not only anchoring in terms of interest payments to GDP, we also suggest setting up the climate investment fund. This could be funded a number of ways. It has been proposed it could be EU level debt, but it could be EU taxes. Italy or any other country would need to begin to correct. However, this should not come at the expense of very necessary investments in reducing their emissions. Ideally, the European Union would have a climate investment fund. I do not know the particulars of the Italian case in depth, but as a general principle, yes, any country getting to or exceeding the threshold should make a correction.

We have the general escape clause, where the fiscal rules are being suspended. Many European states, including Italy, heavily invested at the time of the pandemic to keep their citizens alive, notwithstanding the issues that Italy had of high debts before that and I am not taking away from that. However they made a significant amount of expenditure to protect the health of their citizens and their healthcare service. We all saw the scenes in Italy, at the very start of the pandemic. Then during the cost-of-living crisis, as other European countries did, Italy also had to step in and support its citizens all at a time of the fiscal rules being suspended. However, when the fiscal rules switch on again, and therefore its debt is above a certain level, an automatic trigger kicks in. Dr. Sweeney is advocating that there needs to be contraction in Italy. This could impact on social welfare and could reduce Italy's potential growth and be counter-productive because of the timing. We have a rule which sits on its own outside of the reasons for creating the debt in the first place or the cost, even if we were to approach Dr. Sweeney's view, the cost of debt servicing. Bond yields could have gone up in the international market, there could have been a large number of stacks that had to be refinanced at a certain point in time and that may have fallen at a time when there was a global downturn where the wrong response would be to contract. Is that not one of the challenges with the fiscal rule that they are crude instruments?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Yes they are. We did not really elaborate on how that 3% rule would be implemented. I completely agree with the Deputy that if there are some exceptional circumstances there should be an escape clause, including for debt servicing to GDP. As I said, we did not elaborate on how one would get to there. I take the Deputy's point that it might well be unfair for member states such as Italy, that have debt to GDP in excess of 3%, if they were suddenly told we are implementing new rules, which are anchoring interest payments to GDP.

In that context, there would be a need for those member states to consolidate. If Italy or any other country was on a path moving towards 3% of GDP, such as through economic growth, for instance, it would not necessarily make sense to tell that country to consolidate. Our main point was that if a country is behind 3% but it starts getting up to 3%, then it needs to start considering corrective action. If countries that are exceeding 3%, however, are on a trajectory towards getting 3%, such as through economic growth, it would not necessarily make sense for that country to raise taxes or reduce spending, for example.

I ask Dr. Sweeney to address the new rule that is being proposed, namely, the minimum fiscal adjustment of 0.5% of GDP if debt is above 60% of GDP. Does that fiscal adjustment of 0.5% of GDP relate to debt reduction or deficit?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

The communication last week was not an exemplar of clarity. It just referred to fiscal consolidation of 0.5% of GDP. The analyses I read indicated that the adjustment would be in terms of net expenditure, that being expenditure excluding interest payments or unemployment protection. In essence, there would be a need to reduce net expenditure by 0.5% of GDP. That is my understanding but it was not particularly clear from the communication. Most people interpreted it in that way.

Yes, that it would be net expenditure. Some countries have debt above 60% of GDP and may not be in a deficit scenario.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

The 0.5% rule was for countries that are in breach of the 3% deficit rule in particular. If a country was in excess of 60% but not exceeding the 3% deficit rule, it would not be subject to that 0.5% adjustment. The statement issued by the European Commission was a little vague in that regard but its website was more explicit on the 0.5% rule. It relates to countries exceeding the deficit of 3%.

I appreciate that clarification. Dr. Sweeney noted that some of this is vague and has changed recently. I appreciate his attempts to bring clarity for the committee. What applies to a member state where the deficit is less than 3% but the debt is in excess of 60%?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

My understanding of what applies to that member state is that net expenditure should not exceed the potential growth rate of output. Under the current fiscal rules, there is a net expenditure rule that states net expenditure should not exceed the growth in potential output of the economy. The November 2022 statement did not refer to that, or at least downplayed it, shall we say. It seems that has been brought back in. If a country is exceeding 60% debt, its net expenditure cannot exceed the growth in potential output of the economy. That is likely to freeze government spending as a share of GDP, absent increases in taxation.

That is the expenditure benchmark.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

It is the expenditure benchmark. The other rule to which countries exceeding 60% would be subject will be that debt will have to reduce after four years. Again, the statement was not completely clear on this. It is currently suggested that governments will have four years to implement their fiscal plan such that the debt is on a downward trajectory over ten years but what the communication last week implied was that the debt-to-GDP ratio of countries exceeding 60% of GDP would have to be lower after four years than it was at the beginning of the process. If a country was at 70% and agreed to the plan, after four years its debt to GDP would have to be lower than 70% even if it was very much on an upward trajectory when the plan was agreed and it might be difficult to have it lower after four years.

The big change there is that there was a stricter rule where it was one twentieth of-----

Dr. Robert Sweeney

It was one twentieth of the difference between 60%-----

Dr. Robert Sweeney

That is welcome but it is disappointing that the Commission appears to have rolled back on the move away to hard metrics in November 2022.

Some of that relates to the last-minute intervention by Germany. Obviously, there are some important and welcome changes. Many of the arguments Sinn Féin put forward have been vindicated. The idea of a structural balance, which never made sense as nobody could apply it, has gone. Some of the other metrics that were being used in a different way and were countercyclical or procyclical were a problem.

Several counties right across Europe, including many of our key trading partners, have debts above 60%. As Dr. Sweeney pointed out, the 60% metric is not based on any economic analysis but, rather, is where countries were, on average, 20 years ago. The current average across the European Union is that debts are at 85%, with some member states up at 140% or 180%, although they are outliers. That means that under these rules there will have to be a reduction in debt and, therefore, a limit on the potential growth in respect of those member states. What impact could that have in Europe?

My next question is for clarification. Given the fiscal projections of this State, which will be in surplus rather than in deficit for several years to come, our debt-to-GDP ratio is well below the 60% and is not expected to increase. Indeed, it will decrease further. As such, these rules will not apply to Ireland in the short and medium term. Does Dr. Sweeney agree in that regard?

There is a role for the Commission here. Among the criticisms of the fiscal rules were the lack of transparency and workability, as well as how they could be enforced in different member states that use different ways to interpret them. Although there are rules that are transparent, there is also vagueness. A country can look at its adjustment path from four years to seven years, but only with the agreement of the Commission.

It is the Commission alone which will tell the country how it will decide that. There is a kind of closed-door negotiation regarding the fiscal path. Are there concerns about the lack of sovereignty in terms of member states being able to actually decide their fiscal path and any correction they may feel is necessary?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Regarding the first question on trading partners and the impact that could have, obviously the adjustment path member states will agree with the Commission is based on a debt sustainability analysis the Commission will undertake. One of the criticisms of the debt sustainability analysis was that it does not look at EU-wide or eurozone-wide factors. Let us take one of Ireland's main trading partners, Belgium. I am not sure what Belgium's debt-to-GDP ratio is but I am pretty sure it is over 60%. If it is put on a strict fiscal adjustment path, that will reduce aggregate demand in Belgium. I understand that Ireland's trading with Belgium might not be Belgian consumers but we might just forget that for the moment. That strict fiscal adjustment path is going to reduce aggregate demand in Belgium, or France, to use the French example. That being the case, that is going to reduce exports in Ireland and France's other trading partners, which could reduce output in Ireland and the other trading partners. By reducing output, that in turn could increase debt to GDP in Ireland or whichever trading partner. Therefore, the debt reduction path a trading partner agrees to will definitely have an impact on the member state with which it trades and it could also have significant fiscal implications. One of the criticisms of the EU debt sustainability analysis was that this was not taken into account.

The Deputy's second question was whether, because Ireland is below 60% of GDP, the current suggested fiscal rules will apply to Ireland. One would have to imagine that there would not be as strict monitoring. However, the recent reforms proposed that the European Commission will give guidance - whatever that means - to member states that are currently not in breach. This guidance on how to remain not in breach will be based on the structural deficit.

While it is certainly the case that because we are below 60% we will not be subject to as much monitoring and will not be told how to run our fiscal affairs, it is not the case that the rules will not apply because there will be guidance by the Commission on how to remain within the law, shall we say.

There is, however, no obligation to accept the rules. The excessive deficit procedure was not a rule but more a guide. With the 3% of GDP or 60% of debt rules, there was a trigger which we signed up to and, therefore, we have allowed the Commission to have a role. The guidance from the Commission is non-binding. Is that the case?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Yes. I do not understand the legalities of what the new proposal will be but it is certainly the case that a state will listen to what the Commission has to say, and might well implement. States will certainly listen to it and even if it is not binding, that does not mean that a member state will not follow the advice.

The third question was on the vagueness around the adjustment path. Certain countries can extend the adjustment path from four years to seven years if they agree to undertake certain reforms. The question was whether this raises questions of democratic sovereignty. Absolutely. It is not just this increase from four to seven years. I think that having a 60% debt-to-GDP ratio and a 3% deficit rule are huge encroachments on sovereignty in the first place. The closed-shop negotiation of potential extension from four to seven years is just another layer to that. One thing I would highlight in that regard is the tit-for-tat that will go on in order to get that extension. Some of it will be climate investment, and the fact that governments can extend the adjustment period if they undertake investments that will ultimately reduce their emissions is very welcome. However, it will not be the only type of incentive. Reforms have to be, for instance, what is called growth-enhancing, must ensure financial stability and so on. That is open to interpretation but I guess that might mean commitments on, say, changing retirement ages and things like that. I would guess that would be one of the incentives the Commission will give in order to extend the period. That would raise democratic and sovereignty-related issues.

I should acknowledge that we had a very good briefing from the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO. We may officials of PBO before us in public session, if that is possible. Dr. Sweeney mentioned, and it is generally agreed, that the 60% debt-to-GDP ratio and 3% deficit are effectively arbitrary, in that there is not a sound scientific or financial rationale for setting them at those rates. However, they have been set largely because they are now mentioned in the treaties, which makes them difficult to move and adjust. As an example of how not useful or relevant they are, is it correct that only five countries currently meet the 60% debt to GDP requirement? When we talk about the countries that might fall foul of not having met these targets, I understand that only five countries currently meet the 3% deficit rule and a large number of countries, including Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, France and Belgium, do not meet the 60% rule. While Ireland meets the latter based on GDP, if we were to apply GNI, we would not and we would be at about 80% debt to GDP versus 60%.

Given the scale of the non-applicability and non-relevance of the rules, there is a concern at the extent to which they are still centre stage within the new plans. While they may not be movable, there are ways around them. I ask Dr. Sweeney to comment on those. Some of the ways around them included exclusions, which were being discussed. This is the question of what might get excluded when calculating whether countries are compliant with these two rules. There is also the question of timescale and the length of time, on which we seem to have got a bit stuck.

I ask Dr. Sweeney to comment on the exclusion of certain things from calculations around compliance with the rules and what the response might be where countries - in this case, the majority of countries in the EU - are not in compliance with these rules.

I refer to the 0.5% reduction in net primary expenditure that will have to be looked for as a proportion of debt. I understand that if this was applied to Ireland, the fact that our GDP is extraordinarily high would make for an extraordinarily high adjustment.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

As the Senator mentioned, our debt to GDP is below 60%. As everyone knows, GDP, in an Irish context, is very misleading. Our debt to GNI* is projected by the recent July economic statement to be 79% for 2023, falling thereafter to 75%. If a sensible metric of national income were used, we would not be complying with the rules, which speaks to the arbitrariness of those rules.

On exclusions, if I understand correctly, the Senator asked how one might get around that. The November-----

A golden rule has been suggested. There had been an argument for such a rule for the exclusion of climate expenditure and certain social cohesion and public expenditure. There have been a few different arguments for areas of essential public expenditure. This is recognising that the rules have failed. It is not that they have had not been applied, but that the austerity rules that were brought through and the hard application of short-term fiscal rules have had an actively damaging impact on long-term capital expenditure, social cohesion and social services, as well as on our climate readiness.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

A golden rule has been suggested by many people in order to exclude public investment . This would mean that if a member state had an obligation to reduce net expenditure because it was in breach, net expenditure would not include public investment. That would have been one way of getting around it. There will be a potential extension of the adjustment period from four years to seven if a member state agrees to undertake essential climate investment. There are difficulties with defining what constitutes climate investment. As the Senator mentioned, 60% and 3% are there because of treaty and, realistically, they will not change.

It might have been got around by something along the lines of what was suggested in November 2022, which involved agreed adjustment paths negotiated between the Commission and the member state but did not involve the tight metrics that have apparently been reintroduced since last week, such as the 0.5% adjustment rule, the net expenditure rule that the state should not exceed potential outputs and the rule that debt will have to be lower after a four-year period than at the beginning. What was suggested in November 2022, namely, a movement away from hard quantitative rules, would have been the best way to get around it because such rules make it difficult to meet climate targets. There is always the incentive for member states to prioritise current expenditure over public investment because the benefits of public investment are not yielded until some time in the future whereas current expenditure increases or decreases are felt immediately. There would be an incentive, even if leeway was granted for public investment, to reclassify current expenditure as investment and so on. There is an argument around what constitutes public investment. Is paying public sector workers such as teachers investment? It is not typically thought of as such, but surely it is an investment in the future. I would have preferred, given we have to retain the 60% and 3%, to go along the lines suggested in November rather than the quantitative metrics introduced in line with last week and then having a golden rule introduced on top of that.

One of the reasons the general escape clause had to be activated was the acknowledgement of the damage done by austerity measures and moving towards a short timeframe. It seems by adding these harder measures we are looking at a return to that short timeframe. The Parliamentary Budget Office gave a clear example that is relevant for everybody: the fiscal rules were one of the main reasons used to justify leasing of houses rather than building of public or social housing. It was because the capital expenditure would have a longer term return. Capital expenditure and long-term investment were constrained to the detriment of the social fabric, as opposed to short-term and more expensive approaches, such as leasing, which may have allowed countries to stay within fiscal constraints for that particular year. It seems to be still open. There is a question around what parts can be pushed. There is a danger of the same mistakes being made.

We look to Europe 2020: "smart, sustainable and inclusive growth". That was the map of what Europe’s policies were meant to be between 2010 and 2020. We effectively lost a decade of environmental investment because of that short-term piece, as well as social investment. I guess that is why the general escape clause became necessary, so that countries could deal with the health crisis in diminished public systems.

Does Dr. Sweeney feel this approach means there is a danger of us losing out again on capital expenditure and public investment? He mentioned the question of what gets included in climate expenditure. There are things that can be invested in in terms of climate - "green investment", as it is termed - whereby a profit may be returned within four or seven years. However, there are other areas which may deliver higher emissions reductions, may not deliver profit or fiscal growth but may be more effective in meeting our carbon targets. If we strengthen that, we are not looking at the kinds of climate investments that are profitable in seven years but at preventative spending, which is spending we make now to ensure we do not have negative consequences, including fiscally, down the line. Avoiding flooding, for example, may not be profitable but it certainly diminishes such consequences. That could be looked at in terms of what gets included and excluded in net primary expenditure. Will Dr. Sweeney comment on the debt sustainability analysis methodologies?

What is the scope for having factors in the debt sustainability analysis that are not solely fiscal factors regarding interest rates and so forth, but are factors around genuine and significant risk? These involve areas where, if we do not invest or expend, we create a significant risk, which will then come with a huge financial consequence, such as, for example, flooding.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

One of the criticisms of debt sustainability analysis is that if it encourages fiscal consolidation in a trading partner, this can have implications for other countries as well. That is not taken into account.

There are two components to debt sustainability analysis in general. There is what is called a deterministic projection, which tries to project debt trajectory under certain scenarios, such as shocks to growth, interest rates and so on, and what is called the stochastic analysis, which looks at the various probabilities that might go in certain ways, increasing or reducing over five years, and considers many different scenarios. One thing that comes to mind in the context of debt is that it is always gross debt to GDP that is being talked about. However, if a country starts engaging in public investment - typically this involves a government acquiring an asset - there is a genuine argument that such investment puts a government in a better fiscal position compared with, say, current expenditure. This is most obvious if we think of a government buying a financial asset, or an asset that is liquid, because while that type of expenditure increases its gross debt, that government has a liquid asset in exchange for that, which it can sell quite easily if it needs to reduce its debt. One of the reasons the current rules might be tempered when governments engage in public investment is such investment results in the acquisition of an asset.

On investment that might reduce our emissions but that will not necessarily increase our outputs, and the Senator used flood defences as an example, my feeling is that much of the public investment member states will need to undertake in order to meet their emissions targets will be of that sort. If the investment yielded very high increases in output or was potentially very profitable, typically, the private sector would be doing it already. That is the case, and the example the Senator gave is a very clear instance of it. Probably most of the public investment we will need for climate or other types of spending will be of that sort. There is a very real danger that we will underinvest both because of the constraints and because particular types of investment will not necessarily have a pay-off in the next few years or generate significant amounts of output. I agree with the Senator's points. I am not sure if I answered her questions.

That is very good. I have a final point on public expenditure. I am conscious that Germany has been pushing for a hard line on this. Indeed, it is trying to increase the 0.5% to 1%, which, for example, would almost be the equivalent of a €6 billion reduction in spending in a year in a country like Ireland. The countries that have already experienced austerity because of the requirements placed on them had a long period of privatisation. There is the issue of how much can be spent but there is also the question of how we spend and constraints on that. One of the concerns is the fact, effectively, even looking at state aid rules and so forth, that where countries have largely endorsed the idea of the state as the investor of last resort, if there are private sector actors within an area, it is made very difficult for states to invest in that area. Referring to the examples we have just given, this is even if states may in fact sometimes be more effective. Indeed, as regards housing, there have been very strong arguments that direct state investment may have been far more effective and more cost-effective.

We have a situation where certain countries that were not subject to austerity measures in the last round of fiscal rules have been able to continue delivering public investment, yet other countries are being pushed, even if the most fiscally prudent and, potentially, under debt sustainability analysis, the more effective mechanism for investment would be direct state investment. Within the discussions and negotiations, has there been discussion with regard to looking at new flexibilities, and not just at the amount that can be publicly invested but how this can happen? This is so we do not end up with a two-tier system whereby, effectively, certain countries that were not impacted by the problematic fiscal rules during the last period are able to deliver public investment, and get better value for money by doing so, whereas others are forced to move through a market mechanism, which builds in profit and so on. Is that being looked at as part of the discussion?

It sounds as if the debt sustainability analysis methodology will be key. What will the scope be for us to give input around the assumptions, be they stochastic or others that are deterministic, being input into that process?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

On the issue of certain member states that have run afoul of the rules having been essentially required to reduce their public investment, that was the case, especially with the southern European countries, including Spain, Greece, Italy and so on. Their public investment since the crisis still has not recovered even though it took place almost a decade ago. In the report, we also found that many of the countries running afoul of the fiscal rules are also those with the biggest investment need for their infrastructure in order to adapt to climate change. On whether there has been a discussion on that and if it will just be quantitative, one of the issues is we do not know. It will be based on negotiation between the Commission and the particular member state. It is not clear whether that will be taken into account. Presumably, it would be taken into account that these countries, whether it is Spain or southern European countries, have very significant infrastructural challenges in meeting their climate targets. Presumably, it would be taken into account but it is not clear at this stage.

To elaborate on that, Ireland is an interesting example because it is a country that may not be in breach of the fiscal rules now, but the-----

My apologies for intervening.

-----consequence of our previous measures-----

There is going to be a vote in the Dáil shortly-----

-----might mean we are constrained in how we spend.

-----and we have to decide-----

Apologies. I will let others in.

-----to move on a little.

When the vote happens, Deputies will have to leave and then come back. I want to bring every speaker in before that, if at all possible.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Can I just give one very quick answer? In terms of privatisation, what is being proposed is a net expenditure rule that would exclude one-off revenue gains. Presumably, privatisation would not enable a country to meet its net expenditure rules because one-offs are excluded. That is my understanding of it.

In terms of the debt sustainability analysis and the assumptions that go with it, one such assumption is based on the fiscal multiplier or the knock-on effect of government spending on output. If I recall correctly, the assumption is a multiplier of 0.75, whereas many economists would put that higher. It might well be the case that the debt sustainability analysis is underestimating the effect of reductions in government spending on outputs. One issue that might be challenged is whether the assumption about the multiplier is actually accurate. One of the critiques of the debt sustainability analysis is that it is very sensitive to small tweaks in the assumptions and the stress tests. The issue is the debt paths after the debt sustainability analysis. For example, a debt sustainability analysis for Italy was done in 2016 and another one was done in 2019. Not a whole lot changed in the three intervening years but there was a big change in the estimated debt trajectory in that period. There does seem to be an issue as to the very large variation in projected debt paths in the debt sustainability analysis.

Thank you. We will move on.

As I do not have time to go back to Ms Canelli, I ask that she would provide a written response to some of my questions or perhaps she could respond to them later.

I want to bring everyone in, if possible. Deputy Conway-Walsh is next.

The vote in the Dáil is imminent.

As our guests have rightly stated, the cost of servicing the debt is the real burden. I am glad we have an opportunity to talk about that today. Does making the debt service costs the key indicator for corrective action have implications for the monetary policy within the eurozone? Would it give monetary policy an even greater role in fiscal rules, as interest rates increase via the ECB? Obviously that could have a tangible impact on whether a country is on the right side of the 3% rule on debt servicing.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Monetary policy already has a very large impact. Let us look at why countries like Spain and Greece have such large debt ratios to begin with. It is true that they underwent a crisis in the 2010s, the European sovereign debt crisis, but in Greece, the debt-to-GDP ratio and the deficit it ran in the 2000s were not that high by historical standards. Similarly, if one were to compare Spain and the UK in 2011 and 2012, they basically had similar levels of debt and deficit, but Spain eventually ended up with a severe sovereign debt crisis. Obviously, Spain had a housing bubble and Greece spent too much on the Olympics in the 2000s, but the main reason was that the ECB did not commit to buying bonds. In the 2010s, therefore, a lot of the accumulation of debt was such that Greek and Spanish bonds were considered very risky. There was a fear that those countries were going to default. When Mario Draghi made that famous speech in 2012 that the ECB would do "whatever it takes", bond yields fell precipitously immediately afterwards. That really helped the stabilisation of debts and deficits.

While it is the case that monetary policy is going to have a massive impact on the burden of servicing debt, it also has a very large impact on debts and deficits. There is a safeguard built into EU economic governance to prevent central banks, for example, enabling governments to spend money senselessly. We have to abide by the 2% inflation target, which is a bit of a safeguard against member states spending willy-nilly or senselessly. It absolutely is the case that if we move towards lowering the debt servicing burden, monetary policy will be very important but that is the case already.

Will it be more important?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Will it be more important? I would have to think about that, to be honest. I do not see that it would necessarily be more important but I would have to think about it further.

On the debt servicing costs and what we need to do into the future, does Dr. Sweeney anticipate that those costs, as a percentage of Government expenditure, will increase? Has it been modelled?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

I do not have the figures in front of me for debt servicing as a percentage of Government spending but our debt servicing as a percentage of national income was 1.2% in 2022. It is projected to be the same in 2023 and to fall to 1% in 2025. That is exceptionally low by historic standards. The last time we had a debt servicing burden that low was in the mid-2000s and as far as I remember, it never got down to 1%.

What about 2025 to 2030? Has any modelling been done for those years?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Yes, I am sure that would have been done but I do not have those figures in front of me. The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, would have done some analysis on that.

Would Dr. Sweeney be more concerned about the 2025 to 2030 period?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

We have to look at everything. It is important to project over the next ten years, but I would add the caveat that the longer one goes out, the more uncertainty there is around one's projections. Lawrence Summers, an economist and former Secretary of the US Treasury, published a paper in 2020 or 2021 in which he expressed the view that beyond a decade, projections should be taken with a pinch of salt and many economists would agree. The next five years are important, as are the five years after that. However, it must be borne in mind that there is less certainty as the horizon moves further out.

It is alarming to think that the EU could use the fiscal rules to push certain economic agendas outside that of the normal, democratic pathway. I refer to issues such as a higher retirement age, for example, among other challenges.

How could the fiscal rules be designed in a way that allows for corrective action that would not mean opening up threats to democracy and the sovereignty of member states?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

As it is currently envisioned, member states will be allowed to extend their adjustment period from four years to seven years if they agree to undertake growth-enhancing reforms. If the retirement age is extended, that technically enhances economic growth because, essentially, more people are at work. To safeguard that, you would have to be explicit that the social contract would be protected alongside the growth-enhancing reforms and spell out what that might mean. As it is currently phrased, growth-enhancing reforms would include things like increasing the retirement age.

Could Dr. Sweeney speak to the challenges we have around the regional deficits? On one hand, there is the EU European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, funding and the 60% that is allowed for areas in transition, such as the west and the north west. On the other hand, there are rules. Can Dr. Sweeney see a situation where there would be a loosening of those rules?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

If memory serves me correctly, a certain exclusion from the net expenditure rule would be if a member state was undertaking spending that was co-funded by the EU, that is, spending that basically match-funds the EU. Whether that be climate or NextGeneration EU, that would be excluded from, say, austerity or fiscal consolidation, and that would include spending on regional development.

Okay. At least it has some flexibility. I am finished with my questions.

The Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, briefing was very helpful and TASC's report was incredibly useful. This is complex and there is a lot at play. One thing I am trying to understand is the renewed or increased focus on the expenditure benchmark. Am I right in that?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Yes.

I have been trying to understand what that means. There is a sense where we are leaving some metrics behind and there is then a new focus on this, and this seems to be quite central to some of those new measurements. However, it seems that we are still running into that issue around relatively imprecise forecasting that is based to some degree on future growth. I think in Ireland we all know how tricky that can be. However, it also looks like it will rely on changes to discretionary revenue and the flow of that. In some of the research around it, it has been cited that perhaps that might have an unintended consequence of encouraging tax relief as a way of dealing with that revenue issue within expenditure benchmark. I would be grateful of Dr. Sweeney could expand on that new centrality and new focus on the expenditure benchmark. What are the challenges within that in terms of using data that is not always what we might want it to be?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

The current make-up of the fiscal rules has a number of pillars. Two of them are based on the structural deficit and we have an expenditure benchmark rule as well. The recent reforms proposed to move away and very much relegate the structural deficit rule. We will focus on the expenditure benchmark, specifically for countries that are in breach of the 60% and 3% deficit rules. The expenditure benchmark states that expenditure should not grow faster than the growth rate of potential output of the economy. Forecasting the potential output of the economy is very difficult. While it is slightly less problematic than, for example, forecasting and measuring structural deficits, it is not without its problems. How do we know, first, what potential output is? There is much controversy surrounding how potential output would be measured. Then, there is also the problem of trying to forecast this already controversial measure into the future.

What is implied by having net expenditure grow at the same rate as potential output is that unless you increase taxation, you have to keep government spending to GDP - or, in Ireland's case, GNI* - constant . Even if a country by any kind of reasonable standard would be well capable of engaging in deficit spending because interest rates are low, it would be prevented from doing so if it is in breach of the 60% threshold. For example, a country that has a little bit over 60% and has a low burden of servicing that debt could easily engage in deficit spending. It would be prevented from engaging in moderate deficit spending because expenditure can only grow at the rate of potential output, essentially. That is an implication of it. Another implication is that it will be difficult to actually engage in a lot of needed public investment because it is generally politically easier, assuming a benign financial environment, to fund public investment via borrowing than it is via tax increases.

Might that have a knock-on effect in terms of tax reliefs or tax expenditures that governments might choose that might incentivise them to do that? Would there be a concern for Ireland, considering we already have tax expenditures of approximately €7.1 billion and we have heard from other committees that we do not necessary do a good job in the governance of those tax expenditures?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

If a country provides a tax break, for example, that will actually constitute an increase in net expenditure. I do not see that it would be encouraged, because it is net expenditure.

I will stay in the same area but I wish to raise something that Senator Higgins raised as well. I know that some of this is still in play and still being discussed. I hope that there will be some kind of measure in place to incentivise green capital investment or expenditure and to allow some kind of exclusion for it. To some extent, TASC dealt with it a little bit with two of the options, which would be simple exclusions or a golden rule. There was a third option floating for a while of perhaps benchmarking for green public investment of a share of government expenditures. I suspect that some of the criticism of that would be, again, a loss of sovereignty or being too instructional to nation states or national governments. Is that still in play or are we simply in the realm of where we might exclude it?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

I do not think that is in play. I have not come across that. I am not sure if it would necessarily make sense because there is a lot of heterogeneity as well - for example, Poland with its coal mines versus the Nordic countries. They would be very different in how much they need to spend to meet their emissions targets.

Okay.

I would like to move on a bit. Regarding this adjustment path, let us hope we never see it. It sounds more like a partnership, working with countries. That would require somebody in the country who will work hand in hand on, for example, data analysis. Do we envisage that being the Department of Finance? There has been some suggestion that it might be the version of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, that would work with them. If it is a body like IFAC, would we need to reimagine its powers? What might that look like? Is that a significant increase in its role?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

I would not necessarily see it as a significant increase in its role. I certainly think IFAC would be better placed than the Department of Finance to monitor whether a member state is abiding by its obligations because obviously there is an incentive for the Department of Finance to do what the Department of Finance might do. Obviously, IFAC is more independent of the Government than the Department of Finance. I would not necessarily see that it would have a greatly increased role. It already monitors and comments on the summer economic statement and the April economic statement as to whether the Department of Finance, which produces those statements, produced the relevant data, had the proper projections and so on. There may be some change, but I do not know if it would be beefed up that much.

That process sounds pretty open-ended. Considering that some of the criticism of the fiscal rules related to the uncertainty on the metrics, I notice that the TASC report calls out the constant revisions of methodology in things like - I know we are getting rid of it - the structural balance. I can only imagine that when a partnership aspect with national governments is introduced, it would be even more so. Is there a fear that it would impact how we operate?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Those constant revisions actually come from the European Union. I have done previous work where I interviewed several civil servants about the role of the State. They said that often the Commission would introduce a new methodology, a footnote here and a footnote there, which could change the space that they have to engage in public expenditure. I would not see it as the relationship between IFAC and the Department of Finance and the Government. It is whether the European Union will abide by its stated intention to simplify the rules and move away from these constant revisions. One of the aims of the current revisions is to simplify, precisely to prevent those things from happening in the future.

These changes are not earth shattering. They are tweaks and it sounds like a partnership approach to similar rules that existed previously. There is still a lot to play for. We just talked about the green agenda stuff. It is not clear to me what Ireland's role is at the moment in asking for things. We know that Italy is looking for green exclusions and Spain may also be. I do not want to use the word "lobbying", but who in the Irish firmament is making requests on how this will all run? How will we know that they are doing that? How clear is that to people like Dr. Sweeney and TASC?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

As the Deputy attended the launch of our report, she will know that IFAC was invited and participated in the launch of that report. My impression is that IFAC and the Department of Finance are in favour of reforming the fiscal rules, perhaps along the lines of what was proposed in November 2022. That would be a significant improvement, but it would not go as far as what I would like to see which would be revising the debt limit of 60% and the deficit limit of 3%, which as I said, were very arbitrarily chosen and really do not make any sense. That is where TASC - and I imagine other civil society groups - would differ in believing that we need a more far-reaching reform of fiscal rules, which is very difficult and would require treaty change. I would certainly advocate bigger reforms than-----

Just to be clear,-----

Dr. Robert Sweeney

I do not want to speak for those organisations.

I absolutely accept that. However, in Dr. Sweeney's estimation, is it the role of the Minister for Finance to-----

Dr. Robert Sweeney

One would think so, yes.

It is not the role of IFAC.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

No.

I do not see any red lights up there, but I want to make a couple of comments myself. I also want to bring in Dr. Canelli. I am waiting to see if we will be required to take a break and come back.

I have always had to apologise to economists following the financial crash. The Government of the day got various advices from all sources, most of them wrong. They were conflicting as well and they were still wrong. The points about who takes responsibility and the delay are well made. It is correct that it is the Minister for Finance. It is also for the Minister for Finance and his or her cohorts in government or out, as the case may be, to face the electorate afterwards and to face the consequences. It is a fairly challenging position for any parties, as was shown during the crash.

Dr. Sweeney mentioned Mr. Draghi's famous speech on quantitative easing. The pressure was eased straightaway. I am worried about one other thing, which is the concentration on doing everything possible. I realise we need to do everything possible on climate change to reduce emissions etc. However, we would want to be very careful that if we damage the very means we had for extricating ourselves from the economic disaster on the last occasion in terms of the food production capacity, food exports etc., we will be limiting the extent to which we can work our way out of any difficulty in the future. Is that not correct?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Obviously, if a member state damages its export base, it will have a deleterious impact on employment and hence knock-on effects for the public finances. Of course, if a strategically important sector of the economy is harmed, it will have knock-on applications. I do not really have a view on the extent. It is not my area of expertise or my remit in the report on the fiscal rules as to whether Ireland should focus its emissions reduction targets on the agricultural sector versus the transport sector. I know a little bit about the housing sector, but I would not like to comment too much.

Would Dr. Sweeney agree that we have certain pressing issues, such as housing, emissions and health services? We also have capital expenditure issues relating to critical areas of the country that are badly served by roads at present.

For example, the road to Derry was tragically mentioned in the last week or so. It is obviously a road that needs urgent treatment. That is a pressing issue as well.

We still have a number of pressing issues and I am mindful of the fact that we had to claw our way out of the previous financial crisis. The IMF was sitting above in Government Buildings on a daily basis for a long time. It seemed to go on interminably. We had to accept what happened and face up to it. There were conflicting views on it but it so happened that the view of the Government of the day was the correct one and its approach was the correct one. I accept Dr. Sweeney's acknowledgement of the fact that if we destabilise or damage the productive sector, the very sector that enabled us to work our way out of the abyss on a previous occasion, we could find ourselves in a very difficult situation in the future.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

The Chair mentioned a couple of things there, following on from his first question, including some of the challenges that we have in healthcare and housing. I will talk a little about housing because that impacts the broader strength of the economy and is also the site of much of our emissions. One of the challenges we face is in the planning system. Another is how we move towards more sustainable forms of construction and I will plug some of TASC's work in that regard. We have ongoing research into what are called modern methods of construction which involve building parts of housing off-site, in factories. That potentially is a much more sustainable or emissions-friendly method of construction compared with building everything with concrete on site. It also has the potential to facilitate increases in supply. The research is ongoing but there are a number of challenges in the modern methods of construction sector. The reason for adopting such methods is that they are a form of rapid build. However, there are issues with rapid build. For instance, there is no point in engaging in rapid build, off-site construction if one is then waiting for three months for Irish Water to service the site with infrastructure. That is one of the challenges. We obviously have challenges in our planning system in terms of increasing the supply of both public and private housing. In terms of public housing, not everyone wants it in their vicinity. Not everyone wants apartments in their vicinity either but if we do not have density, not only will we have difficulty in providing accommodation for the people of Dublin, but we will also have problems with meeting our emissions targets. One of the reasons for our high emissions is that we have a sprawling population which encourages car dependency. If we could somehow address some of the challenges in our planning system, that would have a positive effect on housing and would also help us to meet our emissions targets. It would help to increase the supply of housing which would have positive knock-on effects for the economy and, ultimately, the Exchequer balance.

Dr. Canelli is having technical difficulties so I do not know if she will be able to participate.

If I could just make a closing comment on what Dr. Sweeney said, while it is absolutely correct, we cannot look at planning in isolation and not also invest in transport, particularly in rail. There are opportunities now, with the all-island rail review, to do just that. To ignore transport is a mistake.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Yes, we need to do both. We need to spend more and also facilitate it through the planning system.

Obviously that is what this presents for us, in terms of investment in infrastructure that we have not had heretofore. We need to maximise the opportunities around climate change and climate action like renewable energy.

There is another area that we need to look at. I distinctly remember when the financial crash happened that some member states pointed the finger in our direction and intimated that we were the root cause of the financial crash. We contributed to it, no doubt, but so did a number of other states, both big and small. We were isolated and the blame game started, even though other states were equally culpable and some had contributed more to the destruction of the financial system we had.

On the question of climate change and emissions, I agree that we must find the means to address them but what I worry about most is the fact that in some areas of Europe, there is pushback, particularly in the food production sector. I refer to areas that are famous for their factory farms and beef lots, all of which contribute hugely to emissions. Indeed, they contribute much more than we do. I do not see any of them closing down or reducing their output but at the same time we hear on a daily basis here that we have to cut down or reduce our emissions. Others, apparently, do not have to reduce their emissions at all. At the same time, economists and experts of all descriptions tell us that we can pay the producers by another route but it is not about that. It is about world food shortages, which are many and varied. Nothing will take root as quickly as famine, particularly in war-torn areas. We see that daily on our televisions. It is an issue on which I would like to be reassured. I do not want us to be the only ones to make the sacrifices because that could happen.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

It is a little bit beyond my area of expertise but the European Green Deal requires all member states to reduce their emissions over the next ten years by 50%. Ireland is one of the richest countries in Europe but at the same time-----

I will have to stop Dr. Sweeney there. I used to hear that on a daily basis before the financial crash. Our wealth was made up of incomes and salaries and also property prices, both of which collapsed. Both of them went down the river at the same time. That was something that had the ability to fluctuate so we were not really one of the richest. Indeed, we still are not thus because we do not have the resources that most other countries in Europe have. I draw Dr. Sweeney's attention to the unfortunate example of Venezuela, where resources were plentiful but nothing applies now. What was once a thriving economy is nowhere to be seen at the present time.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

We are certainly not as rich as some of the statistics would suggest, especially if we use GDP per capita. Even if we use GNI* per capita, we are certainly not as rich as a lot of the figures would suggest. The best way to measure living standards is to look at consumption standards, where consumption incorporates not only private consumption but people's consumption of public services. There is a metric called actual individual consumption and Ireland still does well on that score. We are certainly not as wealthy as, or have living standards as high as, those in countries like Germany, the Netherlands or Denmark but we are in the top half in Europe.

I forget exactly where we are in the rankings. That needs to be borne in mind. However, it is unambiguous that, the last time I looked, we had the second highest emissions per capita. We trade places with Luxembourg often. It is not the case that other countries do not have to reduce their emissions. However, there is a stronger case for us to reduce our emissions, although there is still a case for emissions reductions in other countries, because we have such high emissions and, on top of that, we are one of the wealthier countries of the European Union.

We will not go into that debate. I have my own views on it. I remember having that debate in Britain in 1988. Luxembourg was top of the league in terms of wealth at that time, followed by the Netherlands and a couple of other countries like that. The European Free Trade Association, EFTA, countries were also high in the rankings at that time. Things have changed since. That is right. We have caught up. We were not as elevated as we thought we were. However, I am still worried about the rapidity with which things can happen. As I see it, the situation as regards world banking is undergoing a bit of hiccup now and, as we know from the past, those hiccups can resound fairly heavily insofar as we are concerned. We would not want a food shortage and fiscal restrictions all at the same time.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Regarding the banking issue, which I can speak about a little more than the food issue, the situation now is quite different. Banking crises and the closing of banks are damaging to an economy and, while the banking crisis and the amount of money we put in to recapitalise the banks the last time, in 2008 and 2009, was damaging, what really killed us was not so much the collapse of the banks, which was big, but the collapse of the housing bubble. In the 2000s, we had a housing bubble. Too many houses were being built. It was a speculative bubble. Employment in construction represented something like 11% or 12% of total employment whereas the norm in advanced economies is about 6%. When you think of the correction that needed to happen after the bubble burst, that rate was not only going to go back to 6%. It was likely to go to 4% or whatever it was because there had been such excess building of housing. When you stop building housing, you also close auctioneers, Woodies, Currys and other retail stores that fill the houses. Even if the banks were somehow magically saved last time, we still would have experienced double-digit unemployment. That would have had very significant fiscal implications in and of itself. What I am trying to get at is that, although the Central Bank is not saying that any of the Irish banks are in trouble, even if one of them were to collapse, while it would be damaging, there would not be the kind of devastation there was when the housing bubble burst.

There is a question that arises from that. I could go on about this all day, although I am not going to, because I still feel hurt about what happened around that time.

We have to remember that the next financial crisis - and we can be absolutely certain that there will be another one - will not be because of what caused the last one. It will be something else. The question for today and for TASC is whether we have enough flexibility within the fiscal rules and EU monetary policy to make the adjustments that will be necessary, because the last time we were trying to fight with our hands behind our back. That has always been the challenge. How can we have a eurozone that meets everyone's needs at the same time when member states are very different in different ways and face different challenges?

We were walking in the dark before.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

Despite my criticisms of the fiscal rules, if we look at the actions of governments in Ireland and other member states and the facilitating role the EU authorities played in responding to Covid, we can see that they were positive. We were very expansionary in terms of the supports we gave to households and firms. Whether it will be realised or not, my hope is that, if there was another big downturn on the scale of the Covid pandemic or a financial crisis, even though I would be very surprised if there was another one as damaging as the one we had a decade or so ago, the EU authorities will have learned that they should not press for so much austerity precisely when it is not called for. They do appear to have learned that.

What percentage of those employed are currently employed in the construction sector?

Dr. Robert Sweeney

I do not have those figures to hand but it would be between 6% and 7%. It is not enough to meet our-----

What was not taken into account is the expanding population and the expanding economy. It should be remembered that, at the height of the financial crash, 500,000 people were unemployed, which was a very stark situation. Having to work with that was a chilling factor when looking in the mirror every morning, no matter how one did so.

Dr. Robert Sweeney

One of the challenges is that, despite the fact that, as I mentioned, our living standards are high, they are not as high as they were relative to eastern European countries. While the gap has not closed, it has narrowed. As a result, there is less of an incentive for Polish construction workers to come to Ireland to alleviate some of those shortages. That is one of the challenges we have in attracting construction workers. The wages in the Irish construction sector as not as high as they used to be relative to wages in Poland, the Czech Republic, Lithuania and so on. As well as trying to encourage people, both men and women, into the sector, it may be important to see if we can get non-EU workers to work in our construction sector to alleviate some of those shortages.

We may have to go for them again. I thank Dr. Sweeney very much indeed. His colleague was unfortunately tripped up by the modern technology that is supposed to work all the time but which, as we know, does not. Dr. Sweeney's address has been very informative. We do not always agree with his scenarios but we have a little bit of experience from what happened before and we have to keep that in mind. We know that there will be changed circumstances whenever the next hiccup comes. We will have to react to that but the important thing is to have the resources, or at least some of the resources, to react, if at all possible. I thank Dr. Sweeney once again. That concludes today's public session.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.19 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 May 2023.
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