JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 2004

Human Rights Abuses: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the delegation from SIPTU to the meeting. We have a small sub-committee and unfortunately several of our members are detained at other meetings but I hope that one or two may arrive during the course of the presentation. Dr. McGinley and his group are very welcome. We received his correspondence concerning the situation of the trade union members in South America, particularly Colombia, at our most recent meeting and decided that we would best proceed by inviting SIPTU to make a presentation here and take some questions from the committee.

While members of the committee have privilege, that does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. When the presentation is finished the members present, and hopefully others who arrive, may have some questions. I invite Dr. McGinley to introduce his colleagues and begin the presentation at his convenience please.

Dr. Jack McGinley

On my left is Anne Speed, branch secretary of the drinks, tobacco and wholesale distribution section.

Ms Anne Speed

I am accompanied by Mr. Gerry Mahony who is one of the senior shop stewards in the Coca Cola plant in Dublin.

Dr. McGinley

In September 2003 elements of the student body in UCD called for a boycott on Coca Cola products in Ireland. The students held a referendum that was passed but queried so they held a second and the boycott was approved. Subsequently a boycott was called for in Trinity College and by a slender margin that too was carried. At that stage the workforce in Coca Cola Ireland contacted me and said that while it had every concern about the working conditions and human rights abuses in Colombia if these boycotts continued in Ireland North and South, the jobs of our members in the plants in Dublin and Belfast would be affected. It would be very easy if the sales of Coca Cola in Ireland dropped significantly for another European country to take the plant product and the jobs from Ireland.

At the same time because there has been a tradition of solidarity in SIPTU going back to the time of Larkin and Connolly when solidaristic action was part of the trade union process we are concerned about events in Colombia. However, the union calling for the boycott, Sinaltrainal, is not part of international solidarity groups such as the IUF, which represents food workers. While it has this grievance against the Coca Cola corporation it continues to negotiate with management on behalf of its members in Colombia. Trades unions in Latin America are opposed to the boycott as is the trade union in the United States of America which funds the case on behalf of Sinaltrainal against the alleged involvement of the Coca Cola corporation ten years ago in the plant at Carepa. Recently, the workforce here was involved in European works councils with colleagues in companies in Europe. They attempted to have the situation ameliorated on the dispute between Sinaltrainal and the difficulties of Coca Cola with the simultaneous boycott.

In the past ten to 15 years, as is evidenced in the material we have furnished to the committee from the global solidarity campaign of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, there have been many deaths and disappearances in Colombia. These can be linked to the government parties there and to right wing elements. For this reason we have joined Justice for Colombia, a UK-based trade union group, to try to highlight the abuses of trade union employees in Colombia. Several prominent trade unionists involved in the claim against the Coca Cola corporation have since disappeared and we are aghast at this. From time to time in Ireland we claim that our rights as trade unionists are being abused but that is trivial compared to people disappearing off the face of the earth, or being murdered and their bodies not being found.

We held a public meeting in Dublin on 25 May. We are seeking several people to travel with the global solidarity campaign, Justice for Colombia, at the end of October, or early November to establish what can be done to improve the plight of trade unionists there. Ms Speed and I are anxious to achieve a broad-based representation from ICTU and SIPTU and we hope that some parliamentarians will go too. I am aware that Senator White has made several visits to Colombia in connection with other matters. We are anxious to speak to everybody there because it is not in anyone's interests to have Sinaltrainal ploughing a lone furrow against the other trade unions in Colombia or the whole trade union movement in Latin American and in Europe. There are 6,000 trade unionists involved in the IUF and there are delegates from 100 Coca Cola unions in 23 countries involved in the Coca Cola corporation. While it is a difficult employer with which to negotiate the trade unions in those countries find that eventually they can negotiate in reasonable terms. We want to bring these matters to the attention of the committee. Members know from the correspondence we sent on 23 March, and the letter sent to Francisco Santos on the same date, that we received a response from the office of the department of social protection in Colombia, which we forwarded to the committee. On paper it appears that some measures are being taken. My members, however, do not seek bullet-proofing of homes, mobile protection and bullet proof vests. They would want to see a situation where the Colombian Government would put in place some kind of judicial system that would ensure trade unionists would be able to go about their ordinary day-to-day work.

Ms Speed

I agree with Dr. McGinley.

Mr. Gerry Mahony

Dr. McGinley has covered most of what we have been fighting for over the past nine to ten months. We have been trying to get the matter resolved over those months but the unions in the colleges have been pulling against us.

Senator White

I have to leave at 4.30 p.m., so I would appreciate being able to put my questions now. I have been to Colombia, a most extraordinary country, seven times in the past 18 months. People here who criticise me and my human rights mission do not have a clue what they are talking about. A United Nations senior lawyer in Bogota said the Colombian regime borders on a totalitarian regime. He was being polite with the use of the word "borders". My experience after seven visits is that it is a democracy on the surface but it is backed 100% by the military in every aspect.

On one occasion I was there it was a national day of trade union protest and around Bogota trade unionists were making speeches. I was very impressed because they were so brave and had the courage to speak out against the system. It was extraordinary to see them, knowing that so many trade unionists are being murdered there. The country has been at civil war for the past 40 years.

I was a member of the national committee of the FWI in the mid-1970s at the time Úna Claffey was on it.

Dr. McGinley

I remember that and the national building agency.

Chairman

It must have been something the Senator said at the time.

Senator White

I was very quiet. I was honoured to be on the committee and it was a great experience. Compared to our view of trade unions, the view of trade unionists in Colombia is vastly different. They are fighting a political battle against the system. It would be like us in 1916. They are up against a situation and mentality where their members are being murdered.

Chairman

I am aware the Senator has a time constraint so she should ask her question if she wants a response.

Senator White

I want to ask how we can help. I empathise with the situation and wanted to say that.

Chairman

The Senator is asking what this committee or individual parliamentarians can do or how they can assist.

Senator White

Yes.

Dr. McGinley

At the Liberty Hall meeting last Tuesday week, Liam Craig Best, who is one of the full-time organisers for Justice for Colombia, told us that in its experience in visiting Colombia the Colombian Government takes notice of visiting delegations. It is very sensitive to visitors. One of the reasons we wanted to raise this issue in this committee is that we are hopeful of having an Irish delegation join the British delegation at the end of October or beginning of November for a week. We are conscious that the Taoiseach made certain representations in the past week at the highest level. We hope that having opened some kind of dialogue with the Colombian Government we can use those good offices with a visiting delegation to show that we intend to have the situation regarding trade unionists viewed in an international dimension. That is the best way of showing solidarity. Having boycotts is very sexy but they do not achieve a lot.

Chairman

Is the delegation Dr. McGinley mentioned as going at the end of October SIPTU or ICTU led? What is the parent group?

Dr. McGinley

The suggestion came from SIPTU but the ICTU globalisation sub-committee is also involved. The issue must still be discussed at executive council level.

Deputy M. Higgins

I apologise for being late but important constitutional matters were being discussed in the House that required my presence. I would support the concept of a visit to Colombia. I have agreed with Senator White for some time that visits are important for informing people. However, important issues of clarity exist in this instance.

The evidence provided on the death of trade unionists in Colombia, the responses given to those, such investigations as have been carried out by the Colombian Government, and the material supplied by the interior ministry for the protection of human rights leave me with a number of questions. The allegations that have been made as to the murder and intimidation of trade unionists cannot be resolved solely by an examination of actions that take place within the factories. We must bear in mind the relationships that exist between employer groups of both a formal and informal nature and the different execution and assassination response.

The choice of strategy we can use in response to these issues gives rise to certain implications. There is not much point in the visiting group going to Colombia and only meeting its opposite number, the Unión General de Trabajadores. It would also be necessary to meet the families of those who have been martyred and intimidated. Let me put the Irish experience through SIPTU to the delegation. If we want somebody not to be terrified of joining a trade union, they need not be intimidated on the floor of the factory. They could be visited in their house or a visit could be made to their relatives. Those of us who know anything about Colombia know that is the practice.

Therefore, if the delegation finds a clean bill of health with regard to the factory or the company — the respondents or the franchisee of Coca Cola might say for example they have not been found guilty of anything or that there is no blood — does this mean the company or franchisee are innocent of collaboration with such groups as may be carrying out the intimidation? That is what a delegation must find out.

I will not make a call on the value or otherwise of boycotts. However, if I was asked to rule out a boycott as a response to what is taking place, I might ask the question whether the franchisee is independent. Those of us who look at the franchise model in another multinational — McDonalds has a book out recently on this issue entitled Working for McDonalds — or who look at a specific franchisee such as one for Coca Cola, see there is an issue as to the extent to which the franchisee is independent. For example, McDonalds had a group of approximately 40 franchisees at one stage who wanted to impose their own regime and they were regarded as subversives within the general ethos of the multinational corporation.

It is not a matter of accepting the statement by a multinational that as far as it is concerned it is a multinational that issues franchises. We have franchises in Ireland and the franchisees that employ Irish workers, unionists and unions are naturally and correctly concerned about both the protection of the employment and conditions. We must look at the situation in Colombia. I cannot judge the situation there now. However, I suggest that if a delegation does go to Colombia it should seek to judge the situation. It can be done.

I have raised the issue of the murder and intimidation of trade unionists in Dáil questions and directly with the Vice-President of Colombia when he was here. People observe that 200 trade unionists were killed in previous years and only 33 or 34 this year, and this is represented as progress. It is not just that the murder of a trade unionist is of concern to those of us who are interested in trade union solidarity internationally, but I am satisfied that intimidation that falls short of murder is also taking place. If SIPTU, as a lead proposer within the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, wants to propose a strategy for dealing with the murder and intimidation of trade unionists in Colombia, and if it wishes to offer proposals as how to investigate this, I should be very willing to support it and, indeed, to be part of the visiting team myself. I am very reluctant to accept the innocence that is ascribed to the franchisees, namely, multinational distance; it does not impress me. There are ways of claiming that no blood has been shed and of claiming transparency. I am not convinced by this but my mind is open.

I welcome the delegation and this discussion. Those of us with an interest, and I should declare my interest as a member of SIPTU for the last 34 or 35 years——

Senator White

As am I.

Deputy M. Higgins

——should offer such solidarity as is required of us.——

Senator White

Yes.

Deputy M. Higgins

——We must not divide at home, however, on the issue of principle. Trade union membership is in decline in Ireland and under assault in Europe. Differences as to tactic should be discussed as just that, but not as a division on principle.

Senator White

It is not just people who work in the multinationals who are affected. A short while ago we had a meeting with two senior representatives of the trade union for the Colombian judiciary, in very expensive surroundings. They told us that President Alvaro Uribe wants to get rid of the judges' association, representing the most senior judges in Colombia. So this oppression is endemic and is enforced by military control. Deputy M. Higgins should encourage the sub-committee to send one of its members to Colombia.

Chairman

The sub-committee can certainly make a recommendation to that effect.

Ms Speed

My colleagues and I arrived at this concern about the general situation in Colombia as a consequence of a very specific experience, which was that the student body decided to express its concern and wanted to express solidarity in a particular way. As Deputy M. Higgins pointed out, this divided us, which caused difficulty because the consequence, if it continues, may be a reduction in employment. We must find alternative ways to be united.

We are aware of the issue of ethical corporate responsibility. There were serious events associated with one multinational. Multinationals cannot claim that there is a brick wall between them and such events; they must address them and we have discussed this with them. We do not sit in judgment as to who was responsible or how these events took place but we are wise enough to know that there is no smoke without fire. There is an opportunity to drive home to the corporate sector that this particular multinational might have closer relations within Colombia.

The seriousness of the circumstances pertaining to this company, the Coca-Cola company, and other experiences, is pointed up in a much more effective way by a delegation that includes parliamentarians. That these parliamentarians also have access to the EU offers the possibility of raising this issue at that level. We have tried to engage with the direct public representatives of the Coca Cola corporation in Ireland as well as with the franchise bottlers and have stressed to them the basic principles of ethical corporate responsibility. We believe that the sub-committee can play a role in this effort. We are not calling for disinvestment, for example, which is favoured by some in the anti-globalisation movement, as we believe that keeping people in employment is a priority. What we want is that there should be some legal obligations on multinationals to give working people good benefits and conditions. One may have one's ideological preferences and wish list of objectives, but this is our job as trade unionists.

Our aim then is to send a delegation that will raise the issues relating to the particular circumstances and will make clear that we are not fooled by glib responses. We wish to press the point regarding the responsibilities of the corporate sector. We can raise the possibility of parliamentarians from this Sate, and perhaps from the EU, becoming involved in this. On the direct issue, in some small way, we can perhaps assist our colleagues in that union in resolving the issues. They are using the legal process, as is their call, but it may be resolved outside the legal process and we will do all we can in a manner that displays solidarity. This issue is of such significance that it has served to give us all a wake-up call in terms of what we can do to help trade unionists in Colombia.

Senator White

It would be a psychological boost if people from Ireland were to join with people in Colombia.

Chairman

Perhaps the sub-committee members can listen to the recording of Senator White's interview later.

Dr. McGinley

With regard to the interventions of Deputy M. Higgins, I take his point on the four pages that came from the ministry. They are more revealing in what they do not contain than in what they do. However, it is valuable to see that there was at least a response. Twenty years ago, a written submission to a South American Government did not even merit a response.

We are aware that there a number of serious questions to be asked of the franchisee, perhaps not in regard to their current activities but rather with regard to their behaviour of eight or ten years ago, when some of the practices that were prevalent may be directly attributable to their agents or their management. We have a relatively fraught relationship with Coca-Cola Ireland — it is an adversarial rather than a partnership approach. One of the main concerns of the 75,000 members that I represent in SIPTU in Dublin is to maintain their terms and conditions, of which the chief is their jobs. The boycott strategy is one that is discussed ad nauseam because there have been times when boycotts have been very effective. Here we have a boycott, however, that is supported by only one trade union in the country, by only one country in South America and is not at all supported in Europe, with the exception of a suggestion it may enjoy the support of some Italian trade unionists.

We are trying to adopt a responsible attitude which looks after the membership in Ireland but also deals with the international solidarity dimension. To that end, it will be important to talk to all the principals. We are ruling nobody out. As far as we are concerned, the delegation will work hard to try to meet everybody while it is in Colombia. As has been said, we will not put anyone at risk. I am aware of colleagues who have gone on delegations to other countries and they have told me that six months later the people whom they met no longer exist. Unfortunately, that has happened, so one must be careful in that regard.

Deputy M. Higgins

It is valuable to have a rational discussion on this matter. At the risk of being slightly provocative, two different dimensions of the trade union's current project are meeting in this case. One is the trade union movement's approach to globalisation and the other is its approach to solidarity with the right to organise. Part of the reason there is a difference in tactics is because these two different projects are meeting. We would be assisted in resolving what is happening in Colombia — we will not solve it, but it would certainly help — by having such a committee.

The other point concerns the adequacy of the response of the trade union movement to the general critique of globalisation. I attended SIPTU's women's equality conference and I have not changed my views on globalisation. Where trade unions find themselves seduced into uncritically accepting the inevitability of a neo-liberal model, it will bring enormous difficulties. What is needed is a critique of the economic assumptions. Dr. McGinley rightly referred to his responsibilities to the brothers and sisters in Dublin. Trade unionists in Colombia are seeking to organise as well. Both groups would be oppressed by an absence of freedom. SIPTU negotiates to the best of its ability and it is only right that we should express solidarity with the people in Colombia who want to organise.

Sometimes, I have a problem with the absence of a sufficiently positive dynamic on the alternatives to the globalised model. People put it crudely and say, "Isn't it better to be exploited than not to be exploited at all?"

Ms Speed

Some people do not agree with that.

Deputy M. Higgins

The other view is that globalisation is the only road to prosperity for poorer parts of the world, and that the rights will follow. A third position states that Europe has all its current possibilities because it had 40 years of Keynesianism and has just had 30 years of miserable individualism. Why should Latin America, or anywhere else, not construct its own economic model for transition, give security to its workers and have proper trade union practices? I am willing to visit Colombia but I would not be going as a visitor to see the inevitable globalised model, which is accepted by other people. I reject it straightforwardly and I hope that more brothers and sisters will join me in doing so unequivocally. I do not subscribe to the notion that there can be a prayerful conversion of this neo-liberal capitalism whereby, once it has established itself and having been exploitative in every essence, it will suddenly become ethical. That is prayerful but not very likely.

Chairman

We shall have to invite the Deputy as a witness some day.

Deputy M. Higgins

I would be delighted to come along.

Chairman

Mr. Jim Fitzsimons, MEP, has to leave us now. Does Dr. McGinley have a brief commentary on the manifesto we have just heard?

Dr. McGinley

The difficulty about globalisation theory is that often the multinational corporations at the heart of it are more powerful than many of the countries that represent us. In its extreme form, the movement of capital and labour around the world is just for profits on the balance sheet of multinational corporations, as we have seen to the detriment of this country. It pays very little regard to local circumstances.

Chairman

We have taken into consideration what the witnesses have said. I apologise for our less than average attendance this afternoon. If there is a formal request for parliamentary representation on one of the visits, we will certainly consider it.

Deputy M. Higgins

I would propose that.

Chairman

First, however, we will have to wait for SIPTU's representatives and their fellow trade unionists to organise such a proposal. From what you have heard at this meeting, you can take it that we will look sympathetically at such a request. There was a proposal by Senator White to ask the full Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs to consider the matter, which we will do. We will leave it on the basis that it is SIPTU's move next, so we will wait to hear from its representatives in the early autumn. That is how we will proceed in due course. I thank the witnesses for their attendance.

Ms Speed

I am not fully au fait with the rules of the Houses of the Oireachtas or of its committees and sub-committee, so you might help me on this, Chairman. I know that the full committee engaged with Vice-President Santos.

Deputy M. Higgins

Yes.

Ms Speed

I wonder if that engagement was written into the public record in any shape or form.

Chairman

It was, yes.

Deputy M. Higgins

I was present. I am one of the people who engaged with him.

Ms Speed

Can we get access to the record of his replies?

Deputy M. Higgins

There is no difficulty with the transcript. I should say, in fairness to the staff, that the only difficulty is the staffing of the committees, which inevitably makes it difficult for the transcribed record to be made available. I would have no difficulty in forwarding it to Ms Speed immediately, when it becomes available.

Chairman

Our staff will forward the transcript to you, as soon as it is available, hopefully soon.

Ms Speed

Thank you, Chairman. That will form a useful background to any further work we may do.

Dr. McGinley

Is there a formal record of today's meeting?

Chairman

Yes.

Dr. McGinley

Perhaps that could be forwarded to us, as well.

Chairman

That can be arranged.

Dr. McGinley

I wish to thank you, Chairman, for your courtesy in inviting our delegation to attend this meeting. It is important for the membership and for the regional committee of SIPTU region one, for us to be able to tell them that the Oireachtas takes some interest in these affairs. It is important, particularly for somebody like Gerry Mahony and his colleagues, who are working in this area. There is an indication in a student magazine today that boycotts will be sought in Queen's University, Belfast, in the Galway Mayo Institute of Technology and in one or two other institutions. If a number of them are successful, jobs will inevitably be lost in Ireland. I would far prefer to use the good offices of the Oireachtas, including this sub-committee, to good effect to show people that we are not just talking about doing something——

Ms Speed

There is another way.

Dr. McGinley

——but that there is another way. It is a more positive, international way — the way of universal solidarity among workers all over the world.

Chairman

Thank you.

Ms Speed

I thank the sub-committee.

Dr. McGinley

Go raibh maith agat.

The sub-committe went into private session at 4.50 p.m. and adjourned at 4.55 p.m., sine die.