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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 2004

Amnesty International: Presentation.

We will now have a presentation by Amnesty International on global terrorism and human rights. I welcome Mr. Seán Love, the executive director and Ms Anne Marlborough from the international organiser's office. Amnesty International has been invited here to discuss terrorism, global security and human rights. The presentation will address the impact on human rights of the actions of terrorist groups, as well as the impact on human rights of the global response to terrorism. In particular, the presentation will address the human rights situations in Iraq and Afghanistan and the allegations of breaches of humanitarian law there, in addition to allegations of human rights violations in western countries based on recently introduced anti-terrorist legislation.

Before we commence, I remind everybody that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I invite Ms Marlborough to begin the presentation.

Ms Anne Marlborough

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. It is a great honour for us personally to make this presentation, but it is also a very welcome opportunity for Amnesty International to address the committee, particularly as we have just published our annual report. It is an opportune time for us to reflect on the current state of human rights protection internationally, especially in light of the ongoing war on terror and the responses to this in the legislation combating terrorism.

Governments and armed groups have launched a war on global values in which they have been destroying the rights of ordinary people. Violence by all sorts of armed groups, including paramilitary groups, has been increasing. Governments have been also increasing their violations. In the past year or so, we have probably witnessed the most sustained attack on human rights and humanitarian law since this body of law was codified in the middle of the last century. There is growing international mistrust, fear and division, which is resulting in a greater polarisation of the world. Callous and cruel attacks by groups like al-Qaeda are posing a real threat to the security of people internationally. They are also causing a great deal of fear and paranoia around the world. Amnesty International condemns all terrorist attacks by these various groups, which are undoubtedly serious crimes in domestic criminal law, but some of them also constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity. It is clear that paramilitary groups are violating international law.

There has been an increasingly worrying trend in the past year or so in the nature of terrorist attacks, particularly the attacks that have been carried out against the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross, ICRC. The most egregious example, which we can all remember, was the attack in August 2003 in Baghdad which killed the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Sergio Vieira de Mello. All of these attacks are human rights violations but they are also a great deal more than that; they represent a threat to the very fibre of international humanitarian law and international justice because, since the inception of the UN charter, the UN was considered a neutral body. The International Committee of the Red Cross was also a neutral arbiter that intervened in a non-partisan way in the field of conflict to protect the rights of all. The fact that, in the past year, these organisations have been targeted is a new threat to international law and justice. However, there are other threats to international law, justice and human rights.

The whole framework of international law has been also undermined by the absence of multilateral action in response to all areas of human rights violations. International law has been destroyed in some areas by the unilateral action of individual governments, particularly in response to the increase in global terrorism. Some governments have declared this so-called war on terrorism as part of their international security strategy. It is necessary that in so doing, states must ensure they do not undermine human rights. Unfortunately, it could be argued that some of the legal developments in the past year have undermined human rights protection. States are under an obligation to ensure the protection of the human rights of all people within their jurisdictions. They must protect people from crime, but they must also treat people properly if they are investigating accusations of crime and trying to determine who is criminally responsible. It is important that security concerns are not allowed to override human rights; that security does not hold sway over the right to a fair trial or the right to freedom of expression. A balance must be struck and underlying it all must be the basic principle that human rights are universal, otherwise states will lose their moral direction and sacrifice all of the advances that have been made on human rights in the pursuit of security. It is necessary that we reflect on this and try not to lose sight of the importance of human rights at this time.

A great deal of the security agenda holding sway at the moment does not have much moral principle attached to it. It would be impossible not to comment on the actions of the US Administration at this time, which has been leading the so-called war on terror and has violated a great deal of human rights, domestically. In the past year or so it has also turned a blind eye to many abuses that were perpetrated overseas in the field because it determined, by virtue of its own policy, that its security considerations were more important than human rights. Amnesty International's annual report details unlawful killings of civilians by coalition troops, not just troops from the US but also from other coalition forces in Iraq. The report also outlines the mistreatment of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and other areas.

We cannot quantify the problem in some areas because the trend has been for detention to be carried out in secret and for detainees not to have access to legal representation. In many cases, it is not even known if people are in detention or where they are. Governments have begun to jeopardise the rights of those they have been detaining. The war on terror has encouraged many new human rights abuses. It is important to reflect on those but also to acknowledge that, as well as current human rights abuses and the sort of new problems we are looking at, there are also ongoing human rights abuses throughout the world, a great deal of which result from internal conflict, including places like Chechnya, Colombia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sudan, Nepal and Israel. There are so many different ongoing conflicts that there is an incipient danger that western security concerns may lead to a blind eye being turned to human rights abuses in some of these conflict zones if it is considered appropriate to forward the interests of a security agenda. Human rights violations must be addressed, regardless of where they occur. When responding to terrorism, all issues, including security and human rights, must be intertwined and considered together.

There have been many developments in combating terrorism in the European Union, many of which have taken place very quickly in response to the American notion that those who are not with America are against it. While the European Union naturally wanted to stand with the United States, it introduced a great deal of legislation very quickly, which is dangerous. Documents such as the European security strategy, the declaration on combating terrorism and others do not have any human rights provisions, or even mention human rights. None of the legal instruments that have entered into force, for example, the European arrest warrant, includes adequate human rights provisions.

The danger in Europe is that the lowest common denominator will become the governing body of law. The new extradition arrangements allow individuals to be transferred between states based on the prevailing law in a given state. This presumes a large degree of mutual trust between states and raises many potential legal problems because the policies concerned are based on political decisions. The whole security framework, as set out in the European Union, is political and has no significant legal basis and no human rights framework. This is extremely worrying.

It is not that the European Union has ignored human rights which are mentioned on a few occasions in the security strategy. The new appointee in the area of anti-terrorism, Mr. De Vries from the Netherlands, recently stated he wanted Europe to embrace human rights in developing security. Europe, he said, must be careful not to fall into a trap set by terrorists by ensuring we did not reduce our attachments to public freedoms. By undermining human rights we would, he stated, be playing to what the terrorists would like. It is important that this is borne in mind.

I will now say something positive. How might we respond to all of these concerns about human rights being undermined? Several positive developments have taken place in the past year, one of which was the ending of immunity. More and more states are starting to put people on trial for human rights abuses and violations of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The International Criminal Court appointed a prosecutor in the past year and has commenced its work. The body for enforcement of international criminal law is, therefore, developing, albeit very slowly. In addition, several cases relating to the detention regime for those held in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere and the rights' provisions available to them have slowly been making their way towards the United States Supreme Court and the House of Lords in the United Kingdom. These are small, positive developments.

How else might we address these matters? We could do so through the development and human security frameworks which are aspects of a whole theoretical debate that has been evolving globally, including in Ireland, in recent years. Mr. Chris Patten, the European Commissioner for External Affairs, delivered some very thought provoking speeches in the past year. The essence of his ideas is that one cannot have peace without development and vice versa. In addressing the panoply of human rights he stated one could not focus solely on civil and political rights, freedom of expression and so forth, with which we have traditionally concerned ourselves. Instead, we must address freedom from disease, poverty and want to try to find how the deprivation of these rights is bound up and undermining global security, as is clearly the case.

Chris Patten also noted the failed states around the world and their ongoing conflicts. He observed that the dark side of globalisation was responsible for many of their failures. We have environmental degradation, the growth of the AIDS problem, terrorism and international crime. All of these problems were, he said, part of a continuum embracing security and development. He pointed out that there were many causes for the disastrous conditions in which so many people in the world found themselves but much of the problem was due to a lack of economic and social development. Clearly, therefore, there is a moral argument for mainstreaming development issues and economic, social and cultural rights into any debate on security and human rights. The scale of the problem is very significant and it is in all our interests and undoubtedly in the interest of self-preservation to try to do something to stem terrorism.

States have framed too much legislation too quickly and should be tackling other issues. They should address development and examine the role of multilateral institutions, fair trade and so forth. Moreover, we need to ensure there is coherence, consistency and complementarity across all areas of foreign policy and in all international governmental organisations, whether the European Union, United Nations, Council of Europe, or at national government level, that human rights are mainstreamed throughout all areas of economic and security competence and that all of these matters advance together. We could then do something about protecting human rights and upholding their universality.

States have obligations in these areas. A large body of international law is in place for the protection of human rights. If we are to succeed in countering terrorism, it will be necessary to co-operate in ensuring enhanced development and human rights protection in parallel with promoting legal criminal responses to terrorism. Everything revolves around the important role of international human rights law and the need to ensure it remains at the forefront of any counter-terrorism responses.

I thank Ms Marlborough and invite Deputies and Senators to ask questions.

I welcome the delegation from Amnesty International. I am very pleased to note the final point in its presentation recognises the need for development and that the right to development is in itself a human right that needs to be incorporated into the broad range of rights we broadly describe as human rights. The biggest failure of American foreign policy, particularly as viewed by people here, is its failure to recognise the importance of these cross-cutting issues in its foreign policy.

The United States is an extremely important global player and the security of the world depends on how it behaves. While many understand the grief and shock it suffered following the attacks of 11 September 2001 and the threat of terrorism facing it and the democratic free world, as broadly represented by the United States, there is great disappointment that the final point made by the delegation is not currently absorbed in American foreign policy. It is the duty of all friends of America, those of us who regard ourselves as friendly allies through our allegiance to America, links and affinity of kinship and shared democratic values, to express the view that there is more to countering terrorism than a security response. It is extremely important that Ireland and other members of the European Union can freely express this view.

Relying purely on a security response will not reach the part that must be reached if the threat of terrorism is to be faced. Nowhere is this more clear than in the Middle East, to which the approach of the United States is misguided, particularly with regard to the Palestinian occupied territories. If American foreign policy on Palestine and Israel and the Arab world generally was redrawn and its approach to the Middle East and its culture broadened, the world would be a much safer place. Although it is understandable America has given a bellicose and adversarial response to the events of 11 September 2001 and the threat of terrorism, it is unforgivable because there is room in the American psyche to develop a broader approach based on development. As the protracted grievances in the Middle East have resulted from American foreign policy, it is absolutely essential that it is broadened. The European Union has a major role to play in this regard. Europeans have a much greater understanding of Islam because of our cultural make-up than Americans could ever have and the European Union has an opportunity to influence in a friendly manner the response and thrust of American foreign policy.

Unfortunately, we are witnessing a deterioration in the relationship between Islam and what is broadly termed "the western world". With good leadership, the European Union can direct American foreign policy in a helpful way towards embracing development as an instrument of peace. The reason for many of these failed states which are a danger to the safety of the western world is they have been ruled by dictators, suffered from chronic poverty or democracy has not taken hold. They feed terrorism which is born out of political grievance and alienation. There is a need for America, the most powerful state in the world, to embrace development as a key instrument of foreign policy and I hope the dialogue which Chris Patten has attempted to instigate at EU level will develop. Is there dialogue between the western world and Islam? Will this horrible clash between civilisations be allowed to develop into a dogged, security-based conflict?

I am delighted that the Amnesty International representatives mentioned development because sometimes the organisation's agenda is too focused on civil and political rights. Development should be a natural extension of such rights. What is the next stage in the prosecution of the United States following the terrible allegations of breaches of international law at Guantanamo Bay and the detention and torture of detainees in Iraq? The international community, including Ireland, will not be satisfied with the trial, indictment and prosecution of relatively junior members of the American military for such crimes. What steps is Amnesty International taking to determine whether there are links between the Pentagon and higher ranks in the military to the abuse of prisoners in Iraq?

An allegation has been made that a military intelligence unit directed that such methods should be used in detention centres in Iraq. If that is true, there must be full political accountability. This is a serious political rather than military issue for the US Administration. What is Amnesty International's view on the legalities of pursuing the breaches of the Geneva Convention regarding the treatment of prisoners in Iraq and Gauntanamo Bay? Has it been proved? If not, what steps must be taken in international jurisprudence on those matters?

I welcome the delegation. Like Deputy O'Donnell, I was interested in Ms Marlborough's remarks, particularly in the light of the my attendance, with the Acting Chairman, at the UNCTAD conference at which Ireland was instrumental in drafting the Sao Paula consensus and statement. It emphasised the issues raised by Ms Marlborough whereby, without an emphasis on development, everything else will be lopsided. At the conference Kofi Annan and President Museveni referred to the need for development to match the fight against terrorism.

I do not have the same experience as Deputy O'Donnell. However, it is extraordinary that we are regularly lectured about the need to fight terrorism, whatever that might be, while, at the same time, a blind eye is turned to developments in the Middle East generally. If the repressive approach of the current Israeli Administration was different, less terrorism would emanate from that quarter.

The marginalisation of the United States in recent thinking on this conflict is unfortunate. The US delegates were, at best, marginal and reluctant players at UNCTAD. As Deputy O'Donnell suggested, they would benefit from a little enlightenment. We cannot expect that the western model of democracy ought to be or can be imposed everywhere else in the world. Afghanistan is producing more poppies than it ever did. The production of drugs is part of the emergence of a new form of terrorism. "Democratic" governance is emerging in Afghanistan.

The world had to be appalled at Saddam Hussein. However, we had to wait for photographic messages to send a message about what was going on in Iraq and need to find out who gave the orders. Where else does the writ of the United States run freely? How can reform of UN organisations be expedited in order that there is a greater understanding of effective multilateralism?

Otherwise we are just flailing all over the place with our emphasis on human rights, our adoption of the charter on fundamental rights and the draft European constitution, laudable as they may be. If European states attempt to opt out of irritating provisions in that charter, are we codding ourselves and the population of Europe that we are enshrining fundamental rights into a constitution on one hand while trying to ensure we do not have to implement them on the other?

I thought there might have been some reference here to human rights in China. Some of us have links to UNFPA and the policy being pursued by the Chinese government which prevents UNFPA from operating is also limiting UNFPA's effectiveness in places like Ethiopia. I do not know if there is any help Amnesty can give us in this area.

I am very pleased to hear the emphasis being put on development as an important part of the armoury in the fight against terrorism, as otherwise we are going nowhere. The delegation rightly talked about poverty alleviation, fair trade, north-south trade, the tariff barriers, trade subsidies and the WTO talks. Those are all inextricably linked and now is probably a good time to listen to Amnesty. If there are new insights we ought to bring to bear on national and international policy I would welcome hearing them, if not today then at some time which suits Amnesty.

I apologise for not being here for the full submission but we had an interesting time in the Seanad on the Order of Business.

I thank Amnesty International for its detailed briefings, particularly on the war against terrorism, which is complete nonsense. It is obvious that President Bush has increased the possibility of terrorism and there are very sinister forces at work here which are completely inimical to human rights due to the sinister people with whom President Bush has aligned himself. I am horrified by attempts to evade or suspend the Geneva Convention and so on.

President Bush has now travelled into criminal waters and breached international and domestic US law. I cannot understand why a special prosecutor has not been appointed to investigate his abuse of human rights, which is on a considerable scale. I appreciate the views of Amnesty on situations like Guantanamo Bay, which is completely intolerable. People are plucked off the streets, they have no access to due process and they are tortured and exported. In the language used, there were efforts to "gitmo-ise" the situation in Abu Ghraib. President Bush has led the western world into an appalling situation.

I salute Amnesty for its very clear and usually unemotional presentation of facts which is very useful in making a case against these worrying developments. I make those general comments having not been here for the privilege of hearing the submission.

I apologise, as we had a vote in the Seanad.

I have one question, having looked through the briefing document. Does Amnesty have any information about the legal advice that has been given to President Bush, which suggested that the US could use torture or at least that doing so would not be in breach of US law? In many ways that is most disturbing. The idea that governments would break the law is bad enough, but the fact that they would have advice stating that something as brutal as torture would not be illegal at all is even more disturbing. Does Amnesty have any information on that?

I also apologise for being late but I was on my way up from Wexford and the traffic intervened. I agree totally with Deputy O'Donnell and I do not want to repeat what has been said other than to say that the world seems to become more unsafe every day. That seems directly related not just to Iraq but to how the US is perceived as dealing with the Middle East problems between Palestine and Israel.

In our country we had a situation where people were aggrieved and sought refuge in terrorism. The reality is that the US is not seen as even-handed, and there will be trouble in the Middle East until that is addressed and someone in the west appears to deal with this even-handedly. If there was a perception of even-handedness we would be part of the way towards addressing global terrorism.

I thank Amnesty for its measured, balanced contribution today. Often we are concerned with human rights abuses, particularly in light of the new terrorism. We want to support the work combating that terrorism but we want that done with the rule of international law clearly enunciated. We have been concerned by this and we are carrying out a study of that area in conjunction with our study of the UN.

I was interested in the comments on the International Criminal Court now enforcing human rights law. That is what we need, somebody who can come forward at the appropriate time, because if we say something it is immediately taken as being against someone. I am not against anyone, though we are against terrorism and various abuses.

When one sees the drift in that direction, as a Member of Parliament one wants to say that there is a rule of international law which all states must follow. All prime ministers and presidents, no matter how big or small, must adhere to that rule of international law. We saw that set aside in Northern Ireland in the 1980s, which upset me at the time. We had a lot of arguments with our neighbours in Britain about that but there was nobody we could turn to who would say it was wrong and do so quickly. Pressure could not be exerted urgently, though views could be expressed through the media.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs has made his position clear on several occasions, sometimes in the diplomatic language of the Department and sometimes in very straightforward language. He has also done so at the UN, but these activities go on in the meantime, though they should not. We understand that in the middle of a terrorist situation people have to handle a particular situation, but when such situations have been brought under control, no democracy can support the abuse of human rights and the torture of individuals. No country can call itself a democracy if it supports such maltreatment.

As Amnesty International has rightly stated, Chris Patten mentioned the other side, what the delegation referred to as the dark side of globalisation. We discussed the issue of globalisation with the Chairmen of the various foreign affairs committees of EU member states and it is one to which we must pay more attention. I believe very strongly that there should be a balance between development and rights. People have a right to life, a job and a home. They also have a right to reasonable development. There is tremendous development taking place around the world. Without picking on African countries, there are increases in their gross domestic product but it comes back to an average per head of population of perhaps $300 to $500 per year. One knows that it is unevenly distributed. The reality is that for most it may be $120 per head.

I learned recently that in Ireland we fall into the $35,000 category which means we should be looking for a sense of balance. We have done a lot in tackling disadvantage and trying to maintain a sense of balance in society but there is rapid growth with the result that we have reached the US average of over $35,000 per head of population. However, America has 2.7 million millionaires, some of whom have hundreds of millions of dollars. If one takes them out of the picture, average income falls. When one examines the spread of wealth among the population, one sees even more differences. Chris Patten's point, therefore, is very important.

I agree with Deputy Carey's comments on what was achieved at UNCTAD, the UN Conference on Trade and Development, at which there was a tremendous breakthrough on policy in that there was consensus on the importance of linking world trade and development aid. There is no point dealing with the world trade issue by excluding people from the benefits. In that way we are breeding unrest. The new consensus was a source of hope and an important development which I hope is built on.

I thank the delegation for the measured, balanced and important contributions made today.

Mr. Seán Love

I thank members of the committee for their responses. It is clear that we are preaching to the converted. I thank Deputy O'Donnell for her acknowledgement and reassure her that in recent years we have fully embraced the broad concept of human rights. The full range of social, economic and cultural rights as well as the right to development are central parts of our work. We also work closely with international development NGOs. In spite of Ireland's excellence in its foreign policy approach, what is broadly known as the rights based approach should also be promoted internally. This is an argument we need to take on board.

The United States came in for a lot of criticism both in the presentation and in some responses. Deputy O'Donnell made another significant point about the absence of dialogue with the Islamic world. We should not forget that all over the world Muslims are being targeted by governments, some of which members may not have heard, under the guise of the war on terror.

Deputy Carey asked about the position in China — obviously we cannot cover every country in detail — where there is extraordinary repression of the Uighur community in Xinjiang province. Its members who are Muslims are being wiped out under the guise of the war on terror.

Muslims all over the world are being targeted in various guises and nobody is being held accountable because the West has said essentially that it is acceptable to do this, or at least that is the interpretation. Nobody is in a position to hold anyone else to account because everyone is doing the same thing.

This does not apply just to the Islamic community. In Zimbabwe journalists constitute terrorists. The adaptation of language is extraordinarily dangerous. In China any form of dissent is seen as terrorism. Every country is playing its own games which are being given credence by virtue of the fact that those countries which were previously seen as identifying with the protection of human rights and international law have wandered from that position. In this regard, the International Criminal Court is the single most important institution which has been created. One of the most powerful things the Government should try to do — obviously it cannot do this alone — is, with its European partners, to impress on the United States how important it is to ratify the convention. This does not apply just to the United States; Israel was also mentioned. Every country needs to ratify the convention as the court is the only place where there can be accountability.

Those are my broad responses but Ms Marlborough has specific answers to some of the legal questions asked.

Ms Marlborough

I thank members of the committee for their responses and queries. Unfortunately, Amnesty International does not have all the answers.

We have spoken about development, in respect of which the Chairman referred to UNCTAD and the differential in gross domestic product. Another unfortunate factor which needs to be considered, even in countries where GDP is very low, is that there are concerns about how and where money is being spent. We are running a campaign against small arms with the slogan "small arms are the weapons of mass destruction". There is no secret about where they are to be found because they are so widely dispersed. Growing international militarisation presents a big problem which has a negative impact on development. We need to bear military expenditure in mind when we talk about development. Development spending should be narrowly focused on education and the like.

What are we looking for from the United States in terms of international humanitarian law and the laws of war? It is difficult to give a coherent answer to this question because, while international human rights and humanitarian law have developed hugely within the last century, they have developed around recognising the rights of individuals which they can exercise against their own governments. We have the right of individual petition and access to the European Court of Human Rights. There is also the right of individual petition under the optional protocol to the women's convention.Many international treaty mechanisms provide ways for individuals to enforce their rights. The European convention also contains an intergovernmental facility which Ireland availed of to take the United Kingdom to the European Court of Human Rights. The violation of human rights was not as egregious as that in Iraq but the judgment provided an excellent advocacy tool for the advancement of human rights law.

This raises the question of how humanitarian law will be forced on the United States. Courts martial are taking place because the United States is trying to appear as if it is doing something quickly but they involve privates and, therefore, people of no significance whatsoever. A court issued a ruling yesterday whereby high ranking members of the armed force may be called to give evidence but this raises the question of putting them on trial. Following the introduction of the Geneva Convention and the Nuremberg ruling, superior orders were not a defence for individuals. Therefore, they could be put on trial. Command responsibility was also an issue. Even if people did not carry out the actions, they could be made responsible for them. However, it is difficult to identify mechanisms to apply this to the United States, apart from through political dialogue.

Legally, the instrument to use is the International Criminal Court. However, it is a framework into which states must positively opt. Ireland has ratified the court but we are still waiting for the legislation to be finalised in the Oireachtas. It has staggered a little in recent months. It would be a good indicator of our respect for humanitarian law if it were to complete its passage through the Oireachtas quickly. That is important because, under the European security strategy, Ireland has made a commitment that by the end of June it will introduce six different strands of criminal law to respond to terrorism. This commitment will probably not be met but it has been made and it would be important if the human rights aspect was advanced at the same time.

There is also an agreement on privileges and immunities under the International Criminal Court which the Government has yet to ratify. This would be good for us domestically. However, the United States has waged a campaign against the International Criminal Court since its inception and stated it will not accept members of the American armed forces being put on trial anywhere other than in the United States. As a result, the United States has tried to obstruct the court at every step. It continues to pressurise other states to sign agreements granting immunities and exclusions to American forces from the court. Brazil signed an agreement with it a few weeks ago which states if US forces are in Brazil, it will not apply the court's provisions to them. The United States is waging a successful battle in excluding itself from its operations. The court could take initiatives on its own but they could not be applied to the United States. Perhaps, they could be applied to other partners in the coalition but not to the United States.

This brings us back to interstate mechanisms. States can bring cases against other states to the International Court of Justice at The Hague but that would require political will. There is also political dialogue, the importance of which should not be minimised. The EU-US summit takes place in Ireland later this week, a significant event in the Irish Presidency. It is important that the Government should make clear to the United States that it is not happy with the atrocities perpetrated by Americans in Iraq and elsewhere. That is one way to do something quickly. As it will be a long time, if ever, before the International Criminal Court applies to the United States, political remonstration with the United States is important. Amnesty International calls for such remonstration in response to the violations by the United States.

We must move forward in more positive ways as well to make sure these atrocities cease and are not repeated. The United States has stated the stress and duress techniques in which it engaged are no longer being applied in Iraq but we would like to make sure for ourselves. Amnesty International undertakes field missions throughout the world on an ongoing basis but has not had access to prisons in Iraq. We would like to have such access to document and monitor the situation.

These are suggestions on how we might move forward in regard to the violation of international humanitarian law. International humanitarian law is fantastic. It is well regulated in terms of how occupying forces behave and prisoners of war are supposed to be treated but not much has happened. There was a great deal of debate about it before the Iraq issue arose but legal action has not been taken in any domain.

Another aspect is the importance of multilateral institutions and respect for international law, whether it is international humanitarian law which deals with development or human rights law. It is often honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Amnesty International's view is that it should be the ultimate arbiter of international policy and practice. Governments and intergovernmental organisations ought to abide by international law. There is always a debate about reform of the United Nations and an ongoing debate about reform of the European Court of Human Rights. Such reform must be addressed from the perspective of making these organs stronger. Their weakness is obvious and all-pervasive, particularly the UN Commission on Human Rights. Political will is needed to do something about this. All we can do is advocate that such action should be taken.

I refer to China and the UNFPA. Amnesty International recently launched a campaign on violence against women in which we commented on the position in China. We are doing some work on the one child rule and reproductive rights in general. We are starting to move into this area. We have not started the specific work on China but it is part of the new campaign on reproductive rights that we recently launched.

I apologise for my late attendance. There was a vote in the Seanad. I was, therefore, unable to attend and contribute. I am sorry to have missed the presentation.

How many members does Amnesty International have in the United States?

Mr. Love

Approximately 500,000.

How many in China?

Mr. Love

We only have members in Hong Kong.

Ms Marlborough

It is not because people do not wish to join the organisation. Unfortunately, they do not have the freedom to do so. We operate in Zimbabwe where one would not touch the organisation. Unfortunately, in some countries we are seen as such a target that attempts are made to infiltrate the organisation. We do not operate everywhere.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank the delegation for its presentation. There was great interest in the contributions of Ms Marlborough and Mr. Love. We come across many issues during our work and have great regard for Amnesty International's work, particularly the controlled and balanced way in which it makes its case. Internationally, proper enforcement measures with independent adjudication should be implemented quickly. These things take far too long and too much abuse occurs in the interim. I thank Amnesty International for coming here and for answering our questions.

Mr. Love

I have one last inquiry regarding Ireland and the Middle East. Amnesty International recently identified an Irish company that has admitted involvement in the construction of the wall in the West Bank. We have asked the Irish Government to address and investigate this issue. The media reported the Tánaiste's spokesperson as saying that the activity of Irish companies abroad is not her concern but is a matter for the Department of Foreign Affairs. Can the committee clarify that for us please because it should be addressed?

We would not be too concerned if they were to demolish the wall soon but we will make inquiries about it.

Mr. Love

The quote was attributed to the Tánaiste's spokeswoman. I am not aware whether the Tánaiste said it.

I thank the witnesses again.

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