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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 8 Jul 2004

Human Rights Issues in Democratic Republic of Congo: Presentation.

I welcome the members of the delegation, Mr. Ngadi, Ms Shole, Mr. Bulano and Mr. Kimpwene. You wrote to us some months ago outlining your concerns about the human rights situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo and it was felt a presentation at this meeting might allow you the best opportunity to present your case to us.

While members of the committee have absolute privilege in what they say, unfortunately that privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I ask the witnesses to bear this in mind in so far as is practicable.

Mr. Pierrot Ngadi

I thank you, Chairman, and the distinguished Members of Parliament for your attention regarding the condition of human rights in the Democratic Republic of Congo. It is an honour to be here.

The Congolese Irish Partnership is an organisation charged with assisting Congolese people and providing information on the Democratic Republic of Congo. We congratulate the Irish Government on its effort in prioritising the situation in the country during the Irish Presidency. The Congolese Irish Partnership acknowledges that under the Irish Government's guidance, the European Union has continued its constructive and active engagement in support of the peace process in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Following the capture of Bukavu on 2 June 2004 by ex-RDC rebels, the European Union, via the Irish Presidency, issued a declaration on 4 June to firmly condemn all foreign interference in the country.

The war in the Democratic Republic of Congo which began in August 1998 is estimated to have cost more than 3.5 million lives, making it the most devastating conflict in the terms of civilian death since the Second World War. Human rights organisations have documented grave abuses carried out by all the parties during the war. Unarmed civilians have been massacred and forcibly abducted; arbitrary arrest and torture has been widespread; combatants have subjected thousands of women and girls to rape. The human and economic costs of the war have been immense. According to the World Bank, physical damage is extensive, institutions are in shambles and the economy has collapsed.

The Democratic Republic of Congo has received nothing like the attention focused on Iraq, even though more than 3.5 million have died as a result of war and mass rape and human rights abuses are depressingly regular events. The recent upsurge in the conflict threatens to further increase the carnage. More than 3.4 million are internally displaced, living in extreme poverty, while 37% of Congo's 55 million people have no access to any kind of health care. Most health districts are in a state of complete abandonment. A total of 16 million, or 33% of the population, suffer from serious malnutrition. The Democratic Republic of Congo is one of the poorest countries and the social indicators are among the worst in Africa. The war has left the country in a state of economic collapse.

Despite the peace agreement signed in Sun City, South Africa, which has led to the formation of the transition government, elements of the state continue to abuse the rights of the Congolese people. Every day, week and month we receive many reports and complaints from people who have been threatened, arrested, abducted and detained by the police, by the military, by men in uniform and by men in a position of power. For what reason, we in the Congolese Irish Partnership ask ourselves?

The concept of human rights is widely accepted around the world. The Government is the main body vested with responsibility to provide for basic needs of its citizens. The state could not claim the sovereignty it does without taking into account the basic needs of its citizens. All governments worldwide have a noble mission, which consists of protecting and implementing positive rights in the state. Examples of such rights provision are education and health care.

The Universal Declaration on Human Rights, adopted in 1948, has outlined a path for all governments in this world to respect the treatment of their citizens. The UN General Assembly declared the right to protection of life, liberty and security of the person and guaranteed to all people freedoms of expression, peaceful assembly, association, religious belief and movement. In contrast, the assembly prohibits slavery, arbitrary arrest, and imprisonment without fair trial. It also claimed that economic, social and cultural rights must be protected.

Nowadays, the notion of universal human rights is flawed for the simple reason that states are not making an effort to promote the rights of their citizens or to respect the rights of others. People have become victims and hostages because of the selfish politics of those in power. We have understood that the state is the predominant provider of services and plays a major role in these services. Hospitals and schools are important for the fulfilment of the rights to education and health issues. Under Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the United Nations stresses everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and his family. This statement will include the right to food, housing, clothing and medical care. This right is sometimes not fulfilled and respected in many parts of the world, particularly in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The basic right, that is, the right to life, freedom of expression, education, and health care, cannot be sold or neglected. It contains the sign and measure of our being. In this light, human rights are universally inalienable and cannot be denied. This is the reason non-governmental organisations on human rights exist and focus on issues related to the promotion and the respect of human rights. If we wish to see those human rights organisations accomplishing their missions, we should ensure they have persons who are able freely and peacefully to fulfil their mission.

Unfortunately, this is not the case in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Those who hold power and the security forces can do what they want with impunity because of their position in society. It has been reported that since the war broke out in Congo in 1998, civilians, human activists, politicians and journalists have been targeted, arrested, harassed, condemned because of their opinion and killed by those who hold power. Conflict and grave human rights abuses have continued in the eastern part of the country. Abuses have included mass unlawful killings of civilians, rape and the extensive use of child soldiers. Torture, arbitrary arrest, illegal detentions, massacres and executions have spiralled throughout.

Massacres of civilians continue to take place. Most of the several thousand massacred are women and children, attacked with machetes and small arms, in places including Nizi in July 2003, Tchoma in May 2003, Fataki in July and early August 2003, Katshele in October 2003, Ituri in July 2003 and Mambassa in late 2002.

I thank Mr. Ngadi for his presentation thus far. However, members have a copy of the presentation and it would be better if we proceeded with a question and answer session. A number of members wish to raise issues with the delegation. The meeting has been delayed by a vote in the Seanad and another vote will be called within the next 20 minutes, which will result in an adjournment of the meeting. I am sure Mr. Ngadi's fellow committee members will participate in the debate. Every member has a copy of the submission and Mr. Ngadi and his colleagues may get better value out of the meeting if we proceed with questions and answers.

The presentation was very comprehensive. We have received additional material from our own Department also. Clearly the situation in Congo is horrendous. I turned very quickly to page 5 of the submission, outlining the recommendations, and ask the delegation to expand on how, practically, the Irish Government and this sub-committee can be of help in highlighting the ongoing massacre.

In its submission the Congolese Irish Partnership suggests greater engagement with the International Criminal Court, with which there may be no engagement at all at the moment, and that we ask our Government to pressurise Rwanda and Uganda to end immediately all political and military support to all armed groups responsible for human rights abuses in eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo.

How, practically, can we help in building or reforming the justice system? Development Co-operation Ireland is very active in sub-Saharan Africa in that kind of activity, and I wonder whether, under the "Governance" heading of the aid budget, we can be in any way helpful.

I know that AWEPA, with which Senator Mooney and others are associated, is doing a lot of work in building up systems of good governance, promoting human rights initiatives and so on. Is there a small list of practical measures which this sub-committee could recommend be undertaken by our Government and the European Union? The European Union is probably the most significant positive actor in that whole area. Our role as the Presidency has been completed, but the Netherlands Presidency would be as anxious that the issue of human rights in Congo be pursued as a priority. I ask for some indication from the delegation as to the practical measures that we could undertake.

Mr. Ngadi

It is very clear what we want. The Congolese Irish Partnership has many links with human rights organisations based in Congo. The Congolese Irish Partnership itself brings Irish and Congolese people together to promote the well-being of Congolese people living here and also in the Democratic Republic of Congo. That is why we are linked with many human rights organisations.

The sub-committee, and the Irish Government, can help first of all to fund the Congolese Irish Partnership in order that we can have links with Congo by sending people there who know the situation and also know the reality here in Ireland. The best way to help Congolese people and promote issues related to human rights would be to give support and assistance to the Congolese Irish Partnership.

Could you give us a brief resumé of the Congolese Irish Partnership? When and why was it formed? How strong is the group? Perhaps some of the other delegates would like to respond.

Mr. Bulano Lumba Betani

The Congolese Irish Partnership tries to promote understanding of the problems in Congo where we need to fight for justice. Many are now suffering in Congo and we fight for their good. We need help with logistical matters and to go to work in Congo and do everything we can in our country.

If your group has sufficient resources, do you actually go to Congo and work with groups on the ground there? Do you organise work on the ground in Congo?

Mr. Ngadi

The Congolese Irish Partnership was formed in 2001. We were aware of the situation of Congolese people coming here without any help or advice. Nobody was looking after them. That is why we bring Irish and Congolese people together to establish a link between Ireland and Congo.

Many years ago Ireland shared some of the experience of the Congolese people. Roger Casement was one of the Irish people who spoke out about human rights abuses in Congo. When we gained our independence we had a good link with Ireland, despite the killing of ten Irish soldiers in Congo. We Congolese have to acknowledge that and re-establish that link. Ireland promotes human rights, and it would be good for Congolese people to follow this example. Ireland can support the Congolese people through our organisation, which was set up here to go to Congo and work with communities there and explain to them how human rights can be abused. We have many members here in places like Cobh, Kilkenny, Castlebar and Dublin.

What links does the Congolese Irish Partnership have with organisations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and so on?

Mr. Ngadi

Others in the Congolese Irish Partnership and I undertake voluntary work with Amnesty International. Sometimes we get support from Trócaire, a big organisation here. Sometimes on matters relating to human rights we work together with Amnesty International. We travelled to Geneva to explain the situation in Congo. We were listened to because we have links not only with the Irish Government but with human rights organisations and civil society in Congo.

Mr. Eddy Kimpwene

Sometimes Amnesty International is asked how it thinks things are going in Congo, and in order to be sure it contacts us before giving out such information. We also have an organisation in Congo and can receive direct information on events there within an hour. We try to find out what is happening before we put it in a newspaper, which is why we are working together with Amnesty International.

Elections are anticipated to take place in 2005. Do the delegates think they will take place? Have they any way of establishing whether a monitoring of those elections would be envisaged by the European Union?

Mr. Ngadi

Yes, there is pressure from donors, who say the election must take place. However, nothing has been done to respect the election deadline of June 2005. The election will perhaps take place within six months of that date because the donors are exerting pressure on the Government to do everything to ensure it does. However, we are not sure because nothing has yet been done. They do not know what to do. The deadline is June 2005 but no one is sure.

Do you believe Rwanda and Uganda are actively engaged with groups within Congo?

Mr. Ngadi

Yes. We have links with civil society. The Irish partnership organised a protest march here on 22 May and the war broke out on 26 May 2004. It was four days before we received news of aggression on the part of dissidents. Rwanda is involved on DRC soil. Amnesty and MONUC are aware of the presence of Rwandan troops in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

We have an overview of the presentation. Mr. Ngadi spoke earlier about child soldiers. This is one of the images of the conflict Irish people remember. The images of child soldiers struck a chord with Irish people. Are there still child soldiers?

Mr. Ngadi

As I said in my presentation, this practice is still taking place.

Are children being actively forced to take up arms?

Mr. Ngadi

Yes. They are being taken into the army. Recruitment of child soldiers is continuing.

Is that a hidden unofficial policy or is it accepted?

Mr. Ngadi

It is not acceptable, but children are being recruited by dissidents who want to control certain areas. They give these children approximately $10 and, given the level of poverty, they accept this payment and are enrolled.

Are very large numbers involved, such as tens of thousands?

Mr. Ngadi

Yes, these children are being recruited in the eastern region of the country. They are being trained in camps.

It is stated in one document that multinational corporations have been accused of helping to perpetuate the war and profiteering from it. Can Mr. Ngadi tell us more about these multinational corporations?

Mr. Ngadi

Multinational companies from Belgium, the United Kingdom and Germany are already involved. These companies extract mineral resources from the Democratic Republic of Congo which helps to finance the war effort. We did not find links with Irish companies.

Perhaps we can invite representatives from the Department of Foreign Affairs to give us an update on measures Ireland might take to assist the Congolese Irish Partnership and other initiatives that might be appropriate, even though it is not the best time of the year.

I support that suggestion. It is probably the next step to be taken from our end.

I support that view. What does Mr. Ngadi believe is the beginning of the end of the difficulties in his country? He outlined a number of recommendations, all of which appear to be already operational at some level, inadequately or without success. It is horrific to consider that more than three million people have died in the Democratic Republic of Congo, especially given the number of deaths that have taken place in Iraq and the focus of military power in that country to try to solve the problem and create a stable civil society.

Last July, the UN Security Council passed a resolution increasing the MONUC troops strength to 10,800, with 3,000 to be deployed to Ituri. It extended its mandate to 30 July, just a few weeks from now. What impact did the MONUC troops have in contributing to the stability of the country?

We would like the representatives to expand a little on any evidence he may have that Rwanda and Uganda are still involved in Congo. The reason is that the full committee on foreign affairs has taken a particular interest in Uganda's alleged participation in fomenting, encouraging, sponsoring or advocating continual instability, particularly in Ituri, despite protestations from the Ugandan Government that it has completely withdrawn its troops from the area. Allegations have been made to us by representatives of NGOs. It is difficult for us as a committee, and as parliamentarians, to have an accurate picture of what is happening on the ground.

Uganda seems to suggest that, in African terms, it is a model country, despite its difficulties, corruption and all the other problems and frailties associated with it. It has many positive aspects. It has reduced the incidence of AIDS, increased literacy levels and improved the standard of living for its people. There is a degree of stability and a functioning parliamentary system in the country. Are there any lessons that can be learned from what is happening in Uganda? Ireland is one of the largest donors to Uganda under the Development Co-operation Ireland initiative.

I am attempting to get from you, as natives of a war-torn country, some hope as to where we as parliamentarians can direct our focus. It is an enormous problem, which is not helped by the immensity of Congo. Part of the difficulty is that historically there are competing interests within its borders.

Without labouring the point, and notwithstanding the fine submission and the recommendations made, is there any hope for a peaceful transition to a parliamentary democracy? Are the ambitions towards elections in 2005 misplaced? What improvements, if any, have taken place in compiling an electoral register? Do you believe the elections, if held, can bring some stability to the country?

Mr. Ngadi

I thank the Senator for his questions. There is proof that Rwanda was and is still involved in Congo.

Rwanda or Uganda?

Mr. Ngadi

Rwanda.

Is there any evidence of Uganda's continuing involvement in the Democratic Republic of Congo?

Mr. Ngadi

At the moment we cannot prove that Uganda is still involved in Congo but Rwanda is. On 25 May when Bukavu was captured by dissidents, Rwanda closed its border to everybody except the dissidents. Their soldiers, as my colleague said earlier, crossed the border from Rwanda into Congo via the rivers and lake. We saw them and have a lot of proof. That is why I say Rwanda is involved in the war and its soldiers are still in Congo.

Mr. Kimpwene

The Senator wants to know about Uganda and I want to say why I am sure that Uganda is still involved. In the Rwandan group you will meet Ugandan people or hear Ugandan names. Perhaps the President of Uganda does not want his name mentioned but he still sent his troops to join the Rwandan organisation. Unfortunately, we cannot prove it because he does not want people to know of his involvement. We know that he is still involved.

Mr. Bulano

Today the brother of the Ugandan President, Mr. Museveni, controls many groups in Congo which steal a mineral called coltan. Many groups supported ex-President Mobutu and now work for Uganda. Many of Mobutu's generals left the country and moved to Uganda. It is Uganda that controls the war in Congo. It is Uganda that controls Rwanda. The war is supported by many wealthier countries. Congo is the target for many manufacturers. Congo is the one country in the world that has coltan. It can be used to make mobile phones and maintains computer chips. We now have a civil war. We have imperialists in Africa and Congo. We have a problem whereby people are abused, killed and impoverished.

Are you saying outside influences created the conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo and without them it could have a stable society and developed democracy?

Mr. Kimpwene

Yes. The political climate was good 20 years ago when Mobutu took power because there was an agreement.

An internal agreement.

Mr. Kimpwene

Yes. There was no war then. Mobutu was in power for ten years without a government, yet there was no war. We now have a war because of an unsuccessful internal agreement.

There are many initiatives taking place and the delegation has made many recommendations. The Department of Foreign Affairs supplied us with a detailed memo on all of the initiatives. It states:

That while the situation continues to be fragile it is acknowledged that future stability will depend, to a significant, degree on the non-interference of outside factors, especially neighbouring countries. . . . The transitional government of the DRC, and neighbouring governments, are being encouraged to work towards a progressive normalisation of relations. . . . In September 2003, at the UN in New York, a joint declaration was signed by Uganda, the DRC, Rwanda and Burundi on the principles of good neighbourly relations and co-operation in which the countries pledged not to interfere in each other's affairs.

Are you saying the agreement has not worked in principle?

Mr. Ngadi

It is not working due to the involvement of Rwanda's troops in Congo. They have not accepted what they signed and agreed to. The agreement has become a dead letter.

Mr. Bulano

This has a very long history. A long time ago Kivu and Goma were part of Rwanda and that is a problem. There was talk about an interim way. Politics is very confused in the general area. Uganda and Rwanda still have some reserves in Congo, but when Mobutu was in power we did not have that. Then a new President took office and terms like "nationalist" and "revolutionary" are used. Perhaps some people do not want a good life for the people of Congo. It is not good enough for the imperialists and they want war instead.

Senator Mooney has helped us to clarify that external forces play a profound part in the problem. We must find a solution.

Figures suggest that up to 20 million people or 40% of the population is hungry or starving. It is difficult to have peace and make political progress in a country that is experiencing food shortages that almost amount to famine. What is being done to deal with the problem?

Mr. Ngadi

Recently I worked for a project in Congo to develop the agricultural sector. First, the problem is not really famine but that roads have not been built. If there were roads the people would not suffer from famine in Congo. Second, people cannot work at agriculture because of the war. In Bukavu, for example, when people work in their fields or try to rebuild their villages the rebels come to attack them and they have to go somewhere else where they can start a new life.

Problems arise because of the war and because we need to modernise our agriculture. In Ireland, agriculture has changed. Since it has been modernised and good roads have been built Ireland has peace. If we had peace in Congo we could invest in everything. If we do not have peace we cannot do anything.

Selfish politicians or those who are working in the Government see to their own needs first instead of supporting or assisting the population. This is what is happening. Anyone who wants to help Congo should begin with a few groups or with one region and see what result is derived from that. That would be a good solution.

Ms Shole, do you wish to speak?

Ms Sylvie Shole

I will speak in French and Mr. Ngadi will translate.

The first problem is education because we must teach the Congolese how to take care of themselves and improve their lives. If one puts a seed in the land in Congo it will grow. It is like an insult to the Congolese people to say they are suffering. They have everything but they do not know how to improve their own lives.

There should be a trading exchange between the provinces. Some provinces produce an abundance of fish, for example, and others produce mineral resources. They should exchange these commodities. However, because of the lack of roads they cannot make these exchanges.

There is also a problem in that the rights of women are not respected. Women can work the fields and plant many agricultural crops, such as maize and peanuts. However, armed soldiers come and take the crops and leave the women with nothing to sell.

Are these DRC soldiers?

Mr. Ngadi

Yes.

We must bring the presentation to a conclusion because a vote has been called in the Dáil.

You have given us an excellent presentation to which we have listened carefully. I am not sure what help we can give you but we will consider the matters you have raised and take them up with the appropriate bodies. As proposed earlier, we will liaise with the Department of Foreign Affairs. Your visit highlights this profound problem. As the sub-committee on human rights we will attempt to respond. Some of these issues might well come up before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. As Senator Mooney has explained, the committee is examining the situation in Uganda. What you have told us today will help us in that regard.

I regret that we do not have instant answers. I hope listening to you is, at least, a first step towards taking measures of help and hope. I thank you for coming before us. I am sorry more members are not present but as the Parliament ends its summer session many committees are meeting and many votes are being taken. I apologise for my colleagues who are absent. However, your documentation will be circulated to all sub-committee members and will be read with interest and concern.

I endorse everything the Chairman has said. All of us who observe what is going on in Congo are deeply offended by the fact that 3 million Congolese people have died in the most horrific circumstances. Those of us who pursue a human rights agenda in Parliament want the delegation to know that we empathise with them.

I was grateful to hear Ms Shole say that the Congolese people are offended by the perception that they are poor. I hope that any action by this sub-committee will give full respect and understanding to the terrible carnage imposed on Congo and that any action will be taken in order to help. We feel helpless in the face of this vast problem. The actions of the international community in other parts of the world and the instant solutions it proposes make it all the more offensive that the bleeding of Congo continues while the international community passes resolution after resolution but very little action takes place.

The sub-committee went into private session at 1.10 p.m. and adjourned at 1.15 p.m. sine die.

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