JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 19 May 2005

Death Penalty: Presentation.

Chairman

As Senator Mooney and I have to attend meetings at 2.30 p.m., we will need to compress the remaining business into a period of half an hour.

I welcome Mr. Billy Colbert and Mr. Aidan O'Leary who have been here previously. They are with us to speak once again about the death penalty and, in particular, the case of a prisoner, Mr. Roger Collins, who is on death row in Georgia. I draw to their attention the fact that while members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee.

Mr. Billy Colbert

It is good to be here again. It is two years since we appeared before the sub-committee, a short time in diplomatic and political circles but a horrendous length of time for Roger Collins who is 28 years on death row.

As I said on my previous appearance before the sub-committee, Roger Collins is symptomatic of the death penalty. He is distinct in racial terms because of his colour and location in the southern parts of the United States of America but not unique worldwide. We have visited him on two occasions since our previous visit to the sub-committee. His medical condition has deteriorated, culminating in serious eye surgery which further restricts his permitted one hour of freedom per day.

As I said in my last presentation to the sub-committee, I do not wish to appear to be anti-American. The last presentation gave him and his family great hope. It instilled in him again the light of hope and dignity. I spoke to him last night and his lawyer, Mr. Marshall W. Krause, who has 44 years experience as a lawyer and successfully secured the overturning of the death penalty in several cases, including that of Roger Collins but the death penalty was reinstated in state terms. He wishes the members of the sub-committee well and regards its role as very important in the case of Roger Collins.

We have moved away from the general terms of language such as "cruel and inhuman" and all constitutional references. I listened to the enlightened presentation of Deputy Simon Coveney, MEP. I ask the sub-committee to consider the issue of "torture" which is clearly understood as the process of the denial of rights and the removal of representation. Roger Collins has had five death calls which is barbaric in any sense. The language becomes bankrupt when one undergoes five death calls, involving preparation, isolation and removal from the community of fellow death penalty prisoners. It causes psychological scarring.

Marshall W. Krause believes there is a case to answer. Deputy Michael D. Higgins made an interesting comment at the last meeting. He suggested that a case such as this should be taken to the United Nations on the ground of torture. That may be a new avenue to consider.

We see a role for the EU ambassador to the United States, Mr. John Bruton. The sub-committee has written to the US State Department. Mr. Bruton could play a direct role at European level in the formulation of a communication to try to prevent the destruction of Roger Collins. In recent days Mr. Michael Hannigan, an Amnesty International lawyer, has been in direct communication with and will meet Mr. Marshall W. Krause in London on 1 July. They are formulating a presentation using the provisions of international conventions on torture. We hope to submit this presentation to the sub-committee for its deliberation in the hope it could be used by it in this case.

The correspondence from the sub-committee has been accepted by the Governor of Georgia, the chairperson of the pardons parole system and the US State Department. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, in his capacity as Minister for Foreign Affairs, sanctioned the nominees who were to travel to Georgia. This is a vital move because the chances of a mentally retarded person such as Roger Collins are slim. The current Minister for Foreign Affairs is in a unique position as he has been appointed to be the eyes and ears of the Secretary General of the United Nations. We hope to meet him to strengthen the efforts of the sub-committee in intervening on behalf of Roger Collins.

In our last presentation we acknowledged that Europe was an execution free zone but that the proposed European constitution retained the right in exceptional circumstances. We ask the sub-committee to fully debate these circumstances in order that in no way would the death penalty under torture be reinstated, even in cases involving terrorism, one of the reasons it is retained in countries which have brutalised people as Deputy Simon Coveney, MEP, described in his presentation.

I ask the sub-committee to raise this matter at European level. The Commission on Human Rights has a profound role to play due to the vastness of the European Union. The sub-committee also has a significant role to play in dealing with the countries affiliated to the European Union.

Roger Collins has spent 28 years in prison. Unfortunately, we have tried to establish communication links with the perpetrator of the crime but he has failed to acknowledge any communication. We have communicated through the chaplaincy service at the prison where he is being held. We are looking forward with great hope to the weekend of 1 July when the Irish and American lawyers will meet.

On our last visit to the prison we sat in the company of people who were days and hours away from the extinction of their lives. World bodies such as the World Health Organisation should be strongly challenged on the reason their members participate in the extinction of life in the most barbarous of circumstances while they present a caring image to the world.

I appreciate the sub-committee's consistent efforts on behalf of Roger Collins and I am glad we have made progress with its help. We plead with it to use its influence to ensure someone travels to Georgia to meet the Governor and Mayor Warne Robbins. Otherwise we will be back before it to inform it our efforts did not end in failure but that we were extremely saddened at the outcome.

Senator Mooney

I thank the delegation for its compassion and humanity in attempting to right a wrong for somebody so far away. I have some limited experience in that I was a member of the Council of Europe Legal Affairs Committee delegation which visited the United States 15 months ago. We visited Illinois where one of the last acts of retiring state Governor Ryan was to commute the death sentences of all prisoners on death row, primarily because a group of students at the University of Illinois had investigated the inmates on death row on a case by case basis. They discovered the flaws in the system which this delegation has identified in Georgia.

It became apparent to us during our visit that there was no great appetite among politicians on Capitol Hill at federal level to engage on the issue of the death penalty. We were repeatedly told it was a state, not a federal issue, despite the fact the federal Government had and would continue to execute people. That was the biggest single stumbling block.

The issue of the abolition of the death penalty is wider than that being addressed here today and must be dealt with on a state by state basis. There is hope because approximately 11 or 13 states have abolished it. As the delegation is aware, within the past 12 months the Supreme Court of the United States has prevented the execution of minors and those who are mentally retarded. The court operates on a consensus basis. When a sufficient number of states achieve consensus on an issue — I think the figure is 18 — the Supreme Court will acknowledge it.

My questions will relate to filling in some of the gaps in the very detailed correspondence provided by the delegation for the sub-committee. What is the current legal position? Mr. Colbert said an appeal to the Governor was needed. What is the Governor's position on the case? As Mr. Colbert knows, he can commute the sentence. Has he taken steps similar to those taken by the Governor of Illinois who instituted a commission to investigate the cases of all death row inmates under the moratorium operating in Illinois? Have any of those initiatives been proposed by any of the lobby groups? What is the view of state politicians in Georgia? Have many or any of them taken an interest in the case? I ask these questions merely from a political point of view as they are the issues that need to be considered.

I appreciate the point Mr. Colbert has made that the sub-committee should use its influence and have no doubt the Chairman will endorse that view. However, in my limited experience of raising this issue with United States politicians at state and federal level, I have found that it operates at the level of the state from the governor down, or from the prison or legal system up. I am trying to explore what we can effectively do other than what has been done during the years.

I remember the first time I got involved in a writing campaign to the then Governor of Texas, Ann Richards. As Mr. Colbert knows, Texas has the worst possible record on judicial murder. While I am not trying to be negative, I want to see what effectively we can do through this morass of tragedy. I am not sure that going through the European Union represents the best route.

Picking up on Mr. Colbert's final point about going and talking to the Governor, will he give us a flavour of the environment and conditions in Georgia on this issue?

Mr. Colbert

We initiated contact with Congressman John Lewis who appears to have been a human rights activist in his early days. We have encountered great obstruction and our communication has not been returned. This indicates that once people like John Lewis get to a certain point, they become cut off from their local democratic base.

While the Senator's absence on the last occasion was unavoidable, he is aware that views on the death penalty fall along left and right wing lines. The issue is whipped up for purposeful gain by certain groups. The sense on the ground in the parts of Georgia where we travelled is that the death penalty is part of the long historical culture of the treatment of black people, in particular. It is mostly black people who are sentenced to death in the United States of America. They feel a sense of hopelessness, helplessness and despair and believe they can do little about it.

We approached some of the churches. As the Senator knows, there are many churches in the United States of America. However, they are bound down, orchestrated and very limited in their participation, even at a communal level, which is extraordinary, but we are now finally accepted. We are no longer seen as "whities", a cultural way of saying, "get off our turf".

The only glimmer of light is the change of governorship. There is a sense that the current Governor is not as much in favour of the death penalty and we do not feel the intimidation we once experienced. Mr. O'Leary and I were denied our paralegal status and forcibly removed from a prison in difficult circumstances. Marshall W. Krause encountered the dragoon squad and was ejected. That atmosphere has abated to a great degree. Our continuing visits and those of others seem to have bothered the mayor who has never rolled out the red carpet for us. However, we intend to try to meet him the next time we go there.

There are historical and economic links with Georgia, particularly Elan and Irish coffee. We have a list from the Department of the companies involved in the vast amount of business done between Ireland and Georgia. There are ways and means for a delegation to travel to Georgia. While I imagine the sensitivities are enormous, I am sure members are well skilled in dealing with them. I also firmly believe there is a very slight chink of light. If we delay and fail to send anybody, it will be a source of great sadness for the Collins family.

I have met all the mothers concerned and sat in their homes. They are very generous and do not seek retribution. I was interested in the earlier reference to the film. The language of retribution and closure is a misuse and belies the truth of the human condition of all concerned. Nothing can take away from the savagery and grotesque murder that took place. When the mother of a victim opens her door to white people — one must use such unfortunate terms — it indicates she did not approve of the orchestrated separation that took place for 22 years before we got that event to take place.

Roger Collins is mentally retarded. The Senator referred to the Supreme Court. Mental retardation is a relative term which we could debate for the rest of our lives. From his vast political experience, the Senator is very skilful in the art of debating such matters. Having said that, I agree with him that involvement at European level only brings pressure to bear on the State Department.

I will make a personal comment, to which I am not sure how President Bush would react. His brother is the Governor of Florida, a next door neighbour to Georgia. When we send a St. Patrick's Day delegation to Georgia and other places, the door is open. On behalf of Roger Collins, Mrs. Collins and Marshall W. Krause, I say nothing we do will harm Roger Collins. Even if the risk were so gross and so obvious to most, to do nothing would be the ultimate insult to the people concerned.

Senator Mooney

What is the current legal position of Roger Collins?

Mr. Colbert

He is in limbo. The feeling on the ground from himself and his most strained relationship with his lawyer, Stephen Bright, is to do nothing, fade away and die one day from old age. The alternative on offer, if we were to succeed, would be a life sentence without parole. Roger Collins would opt to invoke involuntary manslaughter having spent 28 years horrendously on death row. Stephen Bright had the audacity to intimidate Mr. O'Leary and me. He is not a man who likes the crown taken from his shoulders.

Chairman

Who is Stephen Bright?

Mr. Colbert

He is Roger Collins's so-called legal representative who operates with a very limited budget.

Senator Mooney

I am aware that various agencies and lobby organisations operate with the common theme of the abolition of the death penalty and provide legal representation and assistance.

Mr. Colbert mentioned the mother of the victim, Ms Lester. During the hearings we witnessed in Illinois and Washington we met victim support groups which made it clear they did not wish to be used by those in favour of the death penalty as a revenge mechanism. Mr. Colbert's point was well made. A growing number of victims' relatives are now coming out publicly to state they do not favour the death penalty as two wrongs do not make a right. I am anxious to explore the effectiveness of what we are attempting to do. This issue may be much more complex than it seems at first sight in that the relationship between Mr. Collins and his lawyer is suspect, to say the least, which is not very helpful from Mr. Colbert's point of view.

Chairman

What is Mr. Collins's lawyer suggesting?

Mr. Colbert

What is being suggested is that he shut up, put up, fade away and some day he will be away. That is an indescribable extension of torture and cruelty. He was physically intimidated by one of the legal team from Stephen Bright's office within 24 hours of the motion being discussed in the Seanad. It is clear that the office in question has a very effective communications system. He was asked who the two Irish guys were and why the Irish Government was participating in the case. He almost said he did not want to be represented by that team anymore but he could not do so because it would have put him in danger.

Senator Mooney

Why not? Surely he can fire his legal representatives and engage new ones.

Mr. Colbert

If he does not have a legal representative, he will be vulnerable to being taken away without representation. When one reads the overall brief, one learns he has had five death calls. His clothing was withheld for eight years by the Georgia bureau of investigation. It contains no biological evidence whatsoever.

Senator Mooney

Can Mr. Collins engage another lawyer?

Mr. Colbert

Stephen Bright is well known in Georgia. One of his former colleagues has said that to walk on Stephen Bright's toes is to walk on——

Senator Mooney

I must go. I suggest that the sub-committee pursue direct engagement with Mr. Collins's legal representative. Perhaps some correspondence might help to clarify precisely what might be helpful. It seems to be a grey area. I do not look on it as a chink of light. It would be important to establish this point. What legal strategy is being implemented by the gentleman in question? Mr. Collins will be much more vulnerable if he is bereft of legal representation. Mr. Colbert seems to suggest the legal advice received by Mr. Collins is that he should do nothing.

Chairman

The Senator has suggested that we ask about the legal strategy.

Senator Mooney

The sub-committee should express its interest in the human rights dimension of the case.

Chairman

Should we ask for clarification about what the legal team is attempting to do? Mr. Colbert thinks it is doing nothing other than saying to keep the head down. Does Mr. Colbert think it would be useful to contact the legal office to show our interest?

Mr. Colbert

Yes, with one proviso. The sub-committee should bear in mind that Mr. Collins's 28 years of legal representation, of whatever form, would challenge the mind of any person held as a suspect. We are engaging with a lawyer from Amnesty International to take Mr. Collins's case out of Mr. Bright's office. Mr. Bright will charge us a hefty fee to do so. We have paid our way from our own pockets to date. I would ask some basic questions. The sub-committee can ask detailed questions if it wishes but I ask it to consider that the fact this case has been ongoing for 28 years indicates a certain degree of incompetence.

Chairman

Is Mr. Colbert trying to obtain the intervention of Amnesty International and a new lawyer?

Mr. Colbert

Yes.

Chairman

Is it likely that Mr. Collins will have a new lawyer within the next few weeks?

Mr. Colbert

On 1 July next, a lawyer, Mr. Mike Hannigan, and a senior counsel, both from Amnesty International, will meet in London to formulate strategies. I spoke at meetings of a committee about the issue. We are trying to get a lawyer on the ground under the aegis of Amnesty International USA.

Senator Mooney

I suggest that the sub-committee should consider writing to the US ambassador to invite him to express his opinion on the case. The letter should state the sub-committee is concerned about what seems to be a judicial miscarriage of justice. The sub-committee should also write directly to the Governor of Georgia to state it believes, on the basis of the evidence presented to it, that there has been a serious miscarriage of justice in this case. We should ask the Governor to make observations or express opinions on the matter.

Chairman

Does the delegation have any difficulty with such letters being sent by the sub-committee?

Mr. Colbert

No. There is nothing we can do today.

Chairman

When was the new Governor of Georgia elected?

Mr. Colbert

About two years ago.

Chairman

We made inquiries and written representations at the time but did not receive a response. We were advised that we should communicate with the chairman of the parole board. Should the sub-committee write to the new Governor?

Mr. Colbert

Yes.

Chairman

We wrote to him at the commencement of his term of office.

Mr. Colbert

That is right.

Chairman

Is the delegation happy that the sub-committee should write directly to Mr. Collins's lawyer?

Mr. Colbert

I know that the members of the sub-committee are capable. I can speak about being intimidated on the metro system, just after getting off a train or an aeroplane, one hour after arriving on US soil. Stephen Bright awaits the crown of a political nomination — that is what he is doing as he is political in nature. There is no doubt that he will stand for office. Some of his employees and colleagues — I can name people off the record and provide correspondence for the sub-committee — were forced to leave their jobs which says enough about him. I have spoken about the personal intimidation of Aidan O'Leary and me. The sub-committee has copies of correspondence which denied us our paralegal status and made accusations against us. It would be too generous to say to take him with a pinch of salt.

Chairman

Is Mr. Colbert concerned that writing to Mr. Bright would be unhelpful or harmful in any way?

Mr. Colbert

No. There is nothing anybody in this Chamber and these Houses can do to harm Roger Collins. Neither I nor Aidan O'Leary can do anything that would harm him. One cannot have any more than five death calls.

Chairman

Without being facetious, we do not want a sixth call to come to pass. Where, on that awful conveyor belt, is Mr. Collins's case? Was he called for the last time in 1991?

Mr. Colbert

Yes. The state of Georgia's failure to retest Mr. Collins's IQ indicates that it is operating under the banner of torture. It wants him to fade away.

Chairman

Does Mr. Colbert feel the authorities in Georgia want him to fade away?

Mr. Colbert

Absolutely.

Chairman

Do they want to execute him or would they prefer him to fade away?

Mr. Colbert

They are in no man's land. They know they should have dealt with the matter years ago. A lawyer other than Stephen Bright would launch a constitutional challenge to ascertain why the state did not carry out the execution.

Chairman

Mr. Colbert has a broader interest in the subject of the death penalty. Are there prisoners in the United States who have been on death row for longer than Mr. Collins? His case must be at the top of the pile.

Mr. Colbert

Yes.

Chairman

Is Mr. Collins the longest serving prisoner on death row?

Mr. Colbert

He is the second longest in Georgia, after Mr. Jack Potts who is dying. He is being treated palliatively but the state is preparing to kill him nonetheless. Can one imagine any other democracy in which patients are taken from a mental hospital to be executed? It is vulgar in the extreme. We are travelling to Oxford University in July to meet Marshall W. Krause to formulate localised strategies. The guilt of sadness will not fall on this sub-committee, or on the two individuals in question, for the want of effort on our part.

Chairman

We have decided to communicate with Mr. Collins's lawyer. We will write a strongly worded letter to the Governor of Georgia.

Mr. Colbert

Yes.

Chairman

We will also communicate with the US ambassador. While I appreciate ambassadors have to walk a fine line, I do not expect any dramatic news in the ambassador's reply. There is no harm in informing him of the sub-committee's interest in the case in the past two years.

Mr. Colbert has asked me to consider visiting Roger Collins, or arranging a deputation to visit him. The sub-committee has discussed the matter informally. I have advised Mr. Colbert of the sub-committee's feeling that problems may arise if a single case is highlighted above all others but we will examine any mechanism that would allow me or any other interested members of the sub-committee to make such a visit in an informal capacity. Can Mr. Colbert advise whether it is easy to make an appointment to visit the prison and meet the prisoner, a word I hate using?

Mr. Colbert

A condition attached to Deputy Fleming's visit was that he had to travel as a private citizen and could not declare his membership of the Oireachtas. He could not do so for obvious diplomatic reasons. Strange to say, we meet French politicians who are more forceful. They walk into prisons as Members of both Houses of Parliament of their republic or the European Parliament and have no difficulty with doing so.

The only reason Deputy Fleming cannot go is that a personal medical matter has arisen in his family. Given the sanction of the Minister and the fact that all the sensitivities have been addressed, why can another person not be nominated? I ask the sub-committee to raise the matter. The way to get around it is to take a delegation approach rather than a single nomination but whoever goes should bring an internal flack jacket as he or she will need it.

Chairman

Deputy Fleming was going as an individual.

Mr. Colbert

He was going as Mr. Seán Fleming, exclusive of everything else. He had to take that approach.

Chairman

Is that from the perspective of the prison authorities?

Mr. Colbert

Absolutely. If the authorities heard someone was coming as a Senator or Deputy, he or she might have a long holiday.

Chairman

Would they simply refuse him access? Do persons travelling in an individual capacity have to write in advance to get clearance?

Mr. Colbert

We apply to the chief superintendent in our locality who provides a standard letter certifying good behaviour. An application is filled out in triplicate and notarised by the American Embassy. There are lawyers nationwide who have the privilege of acting on behalf of the Embassy of the United States of America. It is a relatively simple process. One copy is sent to the prison warden, one to Roger Collins and one is retained by oneself.

Chairman

How long does the process take?

Mr. Colbert

It usually takes six weeks overall. If one knows somebody, one can make a telephone call and have it happen a little more quickly.

Chairman

Is Mr. Collins allowed an unlimited number of visitors or is the number regulated?

Mr. Colbert

It is very much regulated. Mr. Collins reviews the list twice a year and has to have people removed and added for different reasons. The review takes place at the beginning of the year and in October. If one were to attempt it now, I doubt if one would succeed. Applications should have been made earlier in May. If one applies now, one will be visiting in 2006 rather than in 2005.

The Irish consul in Georgia has a very important political role and is seen by us as a safety valve in case we get into difficulties. We have experienced harassment and the overwhelming presence of police during our visit.

Chairman

How many times has Mr. Colbert been there?

Mr. Colbert

I have visited nine times and Mr. O'Leary, eight times. We look forward to our next trip.

Chairman

When will it take place?

Mr. Colbert

In October or whenever we choose to go in the meantime. I do not go in summer due to the excessive heat.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for attending. While I do not think we can move the mountain at the rate it would wish, we will certainly keep the case active at committee level in whatever way we can. We will make written representations and, I hope, receive follow up correspondence. We will try to be more proactive and reflect on the possibility of providing for a visit by a member or members of the sub-committee in an individual capacity. We will use our good offices and the status of the sub-committee for what they are worth politically to communicate with the Governor of Georgia, the American ambassador and the lawyer involved. We will report to Mr. Colbert and Mr. O'Leary in the near future.

Mr. Colbert

I thank the sub-committee.

The sub-committee adjourned at 2.35 p.m. until Thursday, 16 June 2005.