I have received apologies from Deputies Davern and Quinn. Item No. 1 on the agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 20 October last. Do members agree that the minutes are in order? Agreed.
Business of Sub-Committee.
Human Rights Consortium Forum: Presentation.
Item No. 2 is a discussion with the Human Rights Consortium from Belfast. I welcome Ms Aideen Gilmore, formerly of the Department of Foreign Affairs, who is the research and policy officer with the Committee on the Administration of Justice and co-convenor of the Human Rights Consortium and Mr. Alan Sheeran, campaigns manager of Mencap, a member of the consortium which is based in Donegall Street, Belfast. Ms Gilmore and Mr. Sheeran are here to discuss their work in the field of human rights.
I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I ask the delegation to outline the purpose of the Human Rights Consortium as well as any ideas, suggestions or advice it has that would be of interest to this committee.
Ms Aideen Gilmore
I thank the committee for inviting us and giving us an opportunity to discuss the consortium and its work. As the Chairman stated, I work for the Committee on the Administration of Justice, which is a Belfast-based human rights group. Together with Amnesty International, that committee co-convenes the Human Rights Consortium. The consortium has 109 members, including non-governmental organisations, community groups, trade unions and others. Obviously, as all 109 members could not be here today, Mr. Alan Sheeran has come along on behalf of Mencap, which is one of the more active members of the consortium.
We prepared a paper for today's meeting, copies of which have been issued to committee members. I will begin by explaining how and why the consortium came into being and what it has been doing since its formation. Mr. Sheeran will then outline the Bill of Rights process to date and some of the consortium's work on that process. Then I will explain where the Bill of Rights process stands now and Mr. Sheeran will conclude with an outline of our plans for the future.
The Human Rights Consortium was established in 2000 when the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission began its consultation process on what a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland should contain. That consultation process was founded on a provision of the Good Friday Agreement that mandated the commission to undertake such work. The first meeting of the consortium involved a number of groups, which had dedicated staff and resources to the Bill of Rights process, coming together to brainstorm on activities they believed could lead to greater participation in the debate, as well as fostering greater awareness of the issues at stake. The consortium worked very closely with the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission in doing so. Members of the commission regularly attended consortium meetings and kept members up to date on the plans of the commission. The consortium sought to complement those plans with its own activities and, where possible, engaged in joint initiatives with the commission. One such initiative was the production of a supplement to the Belfast Telegraph which went to 140,000 homes around Northern Ireland and explained what a Bill of Rights was intended to do and the type of impact it could have on peoples’ daily lives.
In the first few years' of the consortium's operation, it was concerned with increasing awareness of the Bill of Rights debate and, through its membership, trying to increase participation in the consultation process. As Mr. Sheeran will explain, that formal consultation process ended in 2002 and the consortium then found itself in quite a different setting. What was required at that point was campaigning activity. Consortium members agreed that they should stick together to represent a strong voice for civil society and the interests of civil society in the Bill of Rights debate. The consortium took on a campaigning role and lobbied for a strong and inclusive Bill of Rights, as well as continuing its efforts to improve awareness of the debate and increase participation therein.
In recent years the consortium has regularly met the political parties in Northern Ireland and the Government to discuss how best to move the Bill of Rights debate forward. There are a number of central tenets to the consortium's being, one of which is that for a Bill of Rights to succeed, it must be publicly owned. The ordinary Joe or Josephine Bloggs on the street needs to know that there is a Bill of Rights in place from which he or she can benefit. The consortium believes any Bill of Rights debate must involve ordinary people. It also believes there must be political support for a Bill of Rights. One of the key factors in this regard is that the Bill of Rights will be incorporated into legislation passed at Westminster. The British Government has made it clear that it will legislate on a Bill of Rights only in the context of cross-party and cross-community political support. We have worked successfully with political parties to garner that support. The consortium is currently campaigning for a strong and inclusive Bill of Rights by working with political parties and governments, as well as by issuing publications and holding events to generate media interest in order that the ordinary people of Northern Ireland can get a sense of the ongoing debate. Mr. Alan Sheeran and I will discuss the Bill of Rights process.
Mr. Alan Sheeran
I appreciate the opportunity to speak before the sub-committee, which plays an important part in this process through the Anglo-Irish Agreement. My organisation assists people with learning disabilities and is particularly happy to work with the consortium on human rights issues because our clients are vulnerable members of the community who require the additional protections offered by a Bill of Rights.
I want to describe the process we have followed in the development of a Bill of Rights in Northern Ireland. This process started in 2001 with a consultation organised by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which effectively presented a blank sheet with regard to what could comprise a Bill of Rights. A range of working groups was established and there were some 300 responses to the consultation from organisations, individuals, political parties and others within Northern Ireland. That process was important in itself because it engaged and enthused participants and produced a sense of involvement across society in Northern Ireland.
Arising out of the consultation process, the commission produced a proposed Bill of Rights in 2002, which was generally welcomed. However, after that there was a bit of a lull and a sense within the consortium of a loss of impetus. There may also have been some internal discussions within the commission on social and economic rights. In 2004, an update document was eventually issued which raised a number of concerns in the consortium because the material in the update document did not reflect the preponderance of responses to the consultation. The commission also encountered internal difficulties in a reduction in the number of its commissioners. However, due to a new set of commissioners who are currently revisiting the process, our sense of engagement is returning. Given our experience of the process, it is useful that we are discussing the matter with the sub-committee at this time.
Ms Gilmore
When a lull was experienced in the process, the consortium was keen to maintain the groundswell of support it had developed in the early days of the consultation and has worked diligently to this end with political parties, although the lull in the political process and the accompanying lack of progress must also be taken into account. As engagement by political parties was lacking in the process, a proposal was developed some years ago by pro-Agreement parties to establish a round table forum, consisting of politicians and civil society, to progress the Bill of Rights. That proposal received the support of the two Governments in the Joint Declaration. The UK Government, in particular, committed itself to establishing, resourcing and supporting the forum and the support of the Irish Government is probably also on record. We have been discussing with political parties the establishment of a forum that will engage parties across the political spectrum in Northern Ireland on the Bill of Rights, a process the UK Government demands in order to legislate for the matter. Such a process would also provide opportunities to generate public interest in the debate. If the forum is properly resourced, it could conduct Patten-style consultations with local communities in Northern Ireland on what people want to see in a Bill of Rights.
As Mr. Sheeran noted, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has new commissioners, which is giving rise to a resumption of this debate. We are unsure how the commission will proceed but, from our perspective, a round table forum is the most appropriate means to proceed. We have consulted all the political parties and they have indicated their willingness to participate in a forum. We have not witnessed as much movement on the part of the Governments, despite their commitments on establishing and resourcing it. We hope to meet the Ministers in the coming months to impress upon them the need to establish a forum. Political parties have indicated that they are awaiting such a lead and, despite the lull in the political process, progress can still be made in this area.
Experiences in other jurisdictions have demonstrated that this can be a powerful mechanism. For example, a number of ministers and politicians from South Africa's white minority who were involved in discussions on a Bill of Rights said that they were empowered to enter political negotiations by the knowledge that their rights as a minority were protected.
We met the parties last summer and hope to meet the UK Minister. We wrote to the Minister for Foreign Affairs on a number of occasions but it has not yet been possible to meet him. It is unfortunate that this has not yet happened because the Irish Government has a clear role, not only in bringing pressure on the British Government but in supporting and honouring its public commitment with regard to establishing the round table forum. We urge members of this committee to bring their influence to bear on the Minister to use his good offices to progress the debate.
Mr. Sheeran
It is important to recognise that there is significant support in Northern Ireland for a Bill of Rights. The existence of the consortium demonstrates that there is support for a strong and inclusive Bill of Rights and that there will be recognisable gains for people in Northern Ireland as a result of the Bill of Rights. I reiterate that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission received 300 responses to its initial paper, analysis of which by the consortium revealed support for the Bill from a number of significant organisations. Although often overlooked, the extensive support expressed for social and economic rights is also important.
Human rights research conducted by the commission in 1999 revealed that 78% of the Protestant community and 92% of the Catholic community supported the introduction of a Bill of Rights. There was a substantial level of cross-community interest in and support for a Bill of Rights.
Through community support for a Bill of Rights, we can impact on everyday constituency issues that are raised with politicians on a day-to-day basis, such as housing and health. These are matters that interest ordinary people. We ask this sub-committee to recognise the contribution that a Bill of Rights can make to the peace-building process within Northern Ireland. That is vitally important. Human rights can be enjoyed across our communities and it would be useful for this body to recognise that fact. The Irish Government should prioritise the development of a round table forum, which could move the process forward. This would be valuable to people in Northern Ireland. A round table forum would involve political parties and civil society. We ask the Irish Government to liaise with, encourage and support all political parties in taking positive steps towards a Bill of Rights.
I thank the delegates. Why has the round table forum been delayed? Is it due to work pressure or is there a degree of opposition? The report does not suggest any opposition; the group appears to have broad support across the community and strong involvement in civic society.
Ms Gilmore
There may be resistance in the UK Government to a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland for fear of the implications for the rest of the jurisdiction. Former Minister Des Browne has asked why a child in Newcastle, County Down, should have more rights than a child in Newcastle, England. This fear may have reduced political will to move it forward.
Scotland followed Northern Ireland in setting up a human rights commission and a commission on human rights and equality is being established in London. There may be fear that a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland will increase pressure for similar measures elsewhere but Northern Ireland has particular circumstances. The Good Friday Agreement recognised that it is emerging from 30 years of conflict and human rights inequalities and recommended that Northern Ireland have a Bill of Rights. It is up to other jurisdictions to make the case for a Bill of Rights.
Mr. Sheeran
The consortium has regularly met Northern Ireland's political parties and they are interested in a round table forum but we lack a catalyst to move it forward. If the British Government would initiate the process, we could begin to move it forward. The Northern political parties across the spectrum are interested in being involved.
I welcome the delegates and acknowledge their role in the matter. I support the main aims of the Human Rights Consortium and support its request for a round table forum and a Bill of Rights. Rhetoric on the political process is often at the top of the system and a Bill of Rights would help restructure community relations. The delegates have encountered difficulties because it requires that politicians recast themselves in a new environment. This goes beyond classical theories of clientelism and into the area of living within the framework of a Bill of Rights.
One of the fundamental commitments of the Good Friday Agreement was parallel processes of development on human rights. This has not happened. Britain, of which I would make some criticisms in the human rights field, ratified the optional protocol for the UN convention against torture in September 2003. Although Ireland voted for it at the General Assembly, we have neither ratified nor signed the optional protocol. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, is investigating the implications of signing it for educational institutions, mental hospitals, etc. It is an example of our being out of step with the Good Friday Agreement.
The British Government is moving in reverse on human rights and seeks derogation on a number of fundamental guarantees on the European Convention on Human Rights. I detect no great enthusiasm in Europe for the extension of the human rights debate from civil and political rights into economic, social and cultural rights. We discussed this here in relation to the preparation for the presentation to the UN Commission on Human Rights in Geneva. The Minister, Deputy McDowell, and I disagreed on the Irish Government's attitude to Travellers. The Minister argues that he will live with the human rights he can easily accommodate into the Irish Constitution, resulting in a pick and mix of the international protections. We must talk about our differences in a civil way. I am trying to be positive and move the matter on.
According to the presentation those making submissions have not asked that civil and political rights be extended into the area of economic, social and cultural rights, but want to know they will be treated fairly in such areas as housing and health. Legislators will seek to block that, arguing that it is a matter for legislation. Representatives beneath the Legislature, who make the decisions, will say it is a matter for political representation. It would be a significant advance if we could establish the bill of rights as a fundamental framework. There is a common element between North and South in relation to the draft UN convention on disability. Politicians North and South are dragging their feet on a convention that is far-reaching. There is a nuance of difference between the two sides in terms of compliance with the human rights aspects of the Good Friday Agreement. The Republic takes the conservative view that underpinning legislation must be in place before it can be ratified. Ratification would indicate the Government was serious but in the international sphere countries ratify a provision and do not implement it. It is a conservative approach because it delays the process. For example, eight or nine signatories have ratified the protocol on torture but it needs to reach approximately 30 signatories. The sub-committee should push ahead on this issue.
In Europe I argue that the extension of civil and political rights to the economic, social and cultural sphere has gone off the boil. The Agreement has been breached by inconsistency, both North and South, in the treatment of such commitments as the Bill of Rights. The document as presented to us includes additional rights to those in the European convention, such as those on disability. What progress has been made in that regard? A campaign on the subject of citizenship is shortly to be announced in the South but will lack credibility if we are in deficit in terms of commitments on rights.
I support the suggestions that have been made but will not underplay the difficulties. The proposed UK derogations from the European Convention on Human Rights are little less than disastrous. They not only stifle the extension into economic, social and cultural rights but reverse fundamental civil and political rights. I support the call for the round table forum and for the recognition of the need for a fundamental Bill of Rights.
As I am being called to another meeting, I will have to leave. I support what Deputy Higgins said about the principle of a Bill of Rights and the proposed round table forum. We must do what we can to convene the latter.
I am Irish co-chair of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, which might be able to make some useful contribution. The Chairman attended a meeting with me in London recently and we will meet in plenary shortly. I cannot suggest we raise it substantively at the next plenary but the Irish meeting will take place in April and we may be able to make progress on it there.
I am not inspired with confidence that it will be easy. The atmosphere toward the development of human rights is negative. I was involved in the European Convention on Human Rights. Persuading governments to incorporate the charter into the European constitution, which in any event is parked, was very difficult. A watered-down version of what was proposed at the earlier convention was agreed. The debate in the British House of Commons, and previously in the House of Lords, points to a worrying erosion of the spread of rights and freedoms.
The possibility of advancing a Bill of Rights would be significantly improved if there was a return of the Executive and Assembly. There is an impressive list of civil society groups associated with the Human Rights Consortium and the sooner the Executive is up and running and the Assembly functioning, the sooner significant outstanding items of the Good Friday Agreement can be progressed. The North-South bodies can only do so much and do not cover this area. I and colleagues such as Senator Mooney, Deputy Michael Higgins and the Chairman who are involved in the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body support the aims of the delegates. Perhaps they might submit a proposal for a sub-committee to examine, as that is a proper forum for sovereign matters. I will certainly use whatever influence I have to try to progress it for them.
All the points I wanted to make have been covered adequately by my colleagues. I suggest this sub-committee pass a resolution to convey to the relevant Minister. I am surprised the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has not found time to meet the delegates. Perhaps this sub-committee might find a way to facilitate that.
I note from the graph of support those expressing a strong "No" include the church. It is a small statistic but curious.
I welcome the delegates. I am grateful to them for making the journey here and pleased they feel we can be of some help.
The Senator suggests that we formally accept the three specific points made by the delegation and ask the Minister to agree to a meeting at the earliest stage.
I second that proposal.
The delegates have heard what members of the sub-committee have said in support of their presentation and work. Do they have any final comments?
Ms Gilmore
First, we appreciate the support of the sub-committee, particularly in helping us to move the Government. As members pointed out, there is a general lack of enthusiasm for human rights issues and we are all conscious of the difficulties faced by the process.
Given the move internationally toward derogations from civil and political rights, we argue for their maintenance and that they be added to with social and economic rights. In our favour we have a groundswell of support. Without being too insular, Northern Ireland needs a Bill of Rights to reflect its particular circumstances and help it build a future. As Mr. Sheeran said, 70% to 80% of people across the political divide support rights in the area of health and education. In Northern Ireland's troubled history there have been few issues that have united communities and the Government and political parties need to show leadership by legislating accordingly. We have a responsibility as a civil society to show leadership on the issue, but we would like this to be reciprocated in the political process.
I take on board what the witnesses have stated, and this sub-committee will be pleased to further the project in any way it can. We will take up the suggestions by Senator Mooney and Deputy Michael Higgins. As a member of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, I look forward to hearing from the Human Rights Consortium and progressing the issue at that level. I thank the witnesses for their attention, and the sub-committee knows the potential importance of a Bill of Rights for the people of Northern Ireland. It could be a major part of a jigsaw of measures required to bring normality and some degree of certainty and stability to the region's population.
The sub-committee looks forward to furthering the group's aims where possible. If it can be of further assistance, we would be pleased to hear from the witnesses again. Some of the sub-committee members are part of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, and we look forward to hearing the views of the Human Rights Consortium and progressing the issue in that forum.
The sub-committee went into private session at 12.40 p.m. and adjourned at 12.45 p.m. until 12 noon on Thursday, 15 December 2005.