JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2006

Visit of Iraqi Delegation.

Chairman

The next item on the agenda is the discussion with the cross-party delegation of Iraqi parliamentarians and the International Republican Institute to discuss overcoming conflict and sectarian division through democracy. Before we commence, I wish to advise witnesses that whereas Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy such privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly in references of a personal nature. It will be necessary to avail of an interpreter during the meeting and we will hand over to him at intervals.

I welcome the delegation, the members of which we have met briefly over lunch. This is a particularly difficult time for Iraq and its people. I thank the delegation for taking the time during its visit to Ireland to come before the committee. The theme of this visit is to meet with Irish leaders, North and South, and to discuss, among other issues, how to overcome ethnic conflict and division through democracy.

The visit is sponsored by the International Republican Institute, IRI, in Washington. The delegation comprises parliamentarians representing the Shia and Sunni beliefs. It also includes representatives of the main political divisions within Kurdish Iraqi society. It is good to see that the diverse peoples of Iraq are represented in its elected Government.

I offer the delegation our best wishes for the future and our heartfelt sympathies to all the Iraqi people who are continuing to suffer dreadfully. The news from Iraq seems to get worse each day. Is the delegation optimistic that the new Iraqi Government will succeed in bringing an end to the violence and will take steps to heal the religious and ethnic wounds that have opened up? How is it proposed to achieve this and what timeframe is envisaged?

Also attending the committee are Mr. Alan Silverleib, resident Iraq programme director of the International Republican Institute, IRI, and Mr. Brendan Fitzgibbon, assistant programme officer. I call on Mr. Silverleib to introduce the delegation and briefly outline the IRI's work in Iraq before handing over to Mr. Adnan Pachachi.

Mr. Alan Silverleib

I thank the committee for taking the time to meet our delegation. This is a rare honour and privilege. On a personal note, having been born and raised in Boston and having worked for several years in Massachusetts state politics, I feel right at home. There has been more than one day in my career that I have been made to wish my last name was Kennedy or O'Neill.

Senator Mooney

Mr. Silverleib can always change it.

Mr. Silverleib

I might do that. I now work approximately 7,000 miles from Boston in Baghdad as the IRI's Iraq programme director for political party development and public opinion research. Brendan Fitzgibbon, whose family comes from Kerry, helps to head up the IRI's Iraq programme from our home office in Washington. Khalid Ahmed, IRI's senior programme officer in Baghdad, has been with the institute since the inception of the Iraq programme in 2003.

Chairman

My Arabic may not be marvellous but the interpreter said "Kennedy and O'Connell" when it should have been "Kennedy and O'Neill".

Mr. Silverleib

The IRI was founded 23 years ago, initially as part of a broader Reagan Administration initiative designed to roll back the tide of Soviet-style communism and assist Latin American countries struggling to overcome a history of authoritarian rule. The IRI's mission stems from the United Nations's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights — freedom is the inalienable and universal right of all members of the human family. In keeping with this belief, the IRI functions as a non-profit, non-partisan organisation dedicated to advancing democracy, freedom, self-government and the rule of law. Since the end of the Cold War, it has broadened its reach to support democratic movements around the globe. To date, it has conducted programmes in more than 100 countries with offices in over 50 developing countries on five continents.

The IRI's largest programme, both in terms of financial resources and manpower, is in Iraq. In the course of the past 30 months it has worked closely with Iraq's nascent democratic government and a wide array of political parties and civil society organisations. Our overriding goals are to encourage issue-based political advocacy, promote greater inclusion in the political and governmental process and strengthen voter education efforts. The Iraq programme is divided into three broadly defined subject areas — political party development, civil society development and governance.

Our political development programme is designed to provide technical assistance and training on a variety of topics related to party building. We often conduct training seminars on topics such as campaign organisation, platform development, public communication, coalition building and campaigning. The IRI is one of the few organisations conducting nationwide public opinion polls in Iraq. In the weeks prior to last December's election for a permanent national government it produced ten nationally televised debates on several issues, including security, federalism, the role of religion in the state and de-Ba'athification in government. In contrast, its civil society programme focuses substantial resources on promoting advocacy campaigns outside the halls of government. Much of this effort relies on the development of voter outreach programmes through a variety of media and other outlets. Special attention is given to efforts aimed at strengthening the political voice of women, youth and religious and ethnic minorities.

The IRI's governance programme is working closely with leaders in Iraq's new and permanent legislature, known as the council of representatives. The governance programme is establishing an Iraqi legislative library and research service which will be responsible for the provision of objective, non-partisan information and analysis for legislators from all parties and ideological persuasions. The programme also provides ongoing communications training for senior government officials and their aides in both the legislative and executive branches.

Once in a while, IRI also sponsors educational and other outreach trips for senior Iraqi political officials. The purpose of these trips is twofold, namely, they are designed to help Iraqis and leaders in the host countries to gain new insights from their respective experiences in democratic development, social progress and economic liberalisation and to help forge closer ties between Iraqi and other political leaders as a new, democratic Iraq takes hold. That is why our delegation is here.

While no two situations are alike, it is our hope that the Irish experience in bridging politically sensitive sectarian divides will help to provide instructive insights in a religiously and ethnically divided Iraq. The story of Ireland's resurgent economy may also provide a certain degree of guidance and optimism as Iraq strives to recover from the financial setbacks of multiple wars and years of sanctions. Of course, our delegation hopes to give members of the committee new insights into the politics of the Middle East, while strengthening ties between Ireland and Iraq in the process.

The members of the delegation represent the broadest possible cross-section of Iraq's geographic, ethnic, political and ideological diversity. We hope to use this opportunity, in this unique, neutral environment in which to bring people together, to explore new ways of strengthening democracy and unity in Iraq.

I thank the Chairman and members for their time.

Chairman

Will Mr. Silverleib introduce the members of the delegation?

Mr. Silverleib

Mr. Adnan Pachachi is the chairman of the Iraqi Independent Democrats Movement and the most senior member of the Council of Representatives. He served as Foreign Minister from 1965 to 1967 and as Iraq's Permanent Representative to the United Nations from 1959 to 1965 and 1967 to 1968. He returned to Iraq in May 2003 after 32 years in exile.

Dr. Nawzat Rifat is a member of President Jalal Al-Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, the PUK. He first won a seat in Iraq's transitional National Assembly in January 2005 and was elected to the Council of Representatives in December. Dr. Rifat is a general surgeon by training.

Loay Abdullah Al-Saidy is a close adviser to former Prime Minister Ayed Allawi and a senior member of the Iraqi National Accord Movement and a prominent attorney. He was imprisoned in 1978 for openly opposing Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party.

Hashem Yehya Ahmed is a senior member of the Iraqi Islamic Party. Last December, he was elected to the Council of Representatives from the ethnically and religiously mixed city of Mosul. Mr. Ahmed is the editor-in-chief of the Dar al-Salam newspaper.

Redha Jawad Taki is the official spokesman for the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, SCIRI. He is also the head of SCIRI's political affairs office and a member of the Council of Representatives. From 1970 to 2003, Mr. Taki was heavily involved in the organised opposition to the Ba'ath Party.

Saedi I. A. Barzinji is a member of Mas'oud Barzani's Kurdistan Democratic Party, KDP. He served in Iraq's transitional National Assembly and was elected to the Council of Representatives last December. He was chairman of Salaheddin University in Irbil from 1993 until 2003.

Dr. Walid Al-Shahib currently serves as the senior adviser to the Iraqi Presidency Council and is the director of public relations for Prime Minister Jawad Al-Maliki's Islamic Dawa Party. Dr. Al-Shahib, a chemistry professor by training, was one of the first witnesses in the trial of Saddam Hussein. He has worked for years, in Iraq and abroad, to raise public awareness of the human rights violations of the prior regime.

Muhammad Ahmed Mahmoud is senior member of the Kurdistan Islamic Union, KIU, and a member of the Council of Representatives. Mr. Mahmoud has been actively involved in reconciliation efforts between rival Kurdish political factions since the 1990s. He is a prominent lecturer in Iraq on a variety of social and political issues, including gender equality and human rights.

Chairman

Will Mr. Pachachi outline the current position in Iraq?

Mr. Adnan Pachachi

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to discuss matters of common interest and concern. At lunch, I said that we have a great deal to learn from the Irish experience because the Irish people have experienced problems similar to those with which we are faced.

Security and the restoration of law and order are the main problems we face. On the one hand, we must deal with the fundamentalist fanatics who are waging a war of terror in order to establish a repressive theocracy similar to the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. On the other hand, there are the militias and armed groups whose aim is the consolidation of sectarian power and authority to impose their own less strident brand of theocracy. There are also the remnants of Saddam's supporters who dream of restoring their power but this will never be allowed to happen.

The majority of those taking part in the insurgency — or, as some call it, the resistance — feel they have been unjustly treated and marginalised. Although many acts of violence are committed in the name of religion or sect, the real motive is often power and monetary gain. Dr. Maliki's government realises that the security problems cannot be resolved by force alone and is seriously considering entering into a meaningful dialogue with many who have so far refused to take part in the political process.

Certain measures, such as the release of thousands of detainees who have not been charged with specific crimes, have already been taken to make this possible. Closely related to the security problem is the reorganisation, on a strictly professional basis, of the armed forces and security services, ensuring first their undivided loyalty to the state. The government is taking certain measures to achieve this goal.

Apart from security there are eight problems to be addressed. One is corruption and the choice of officials. Unfortunately, corruption has spread. We have inherited this culture from the regime of Saddam Hussein. Closely related to this is the choice of government officials, including ministers. Most Iraqis take the view that the top criteria for the choice of public officials are integrity, competence and experience, rather than party loyalty or sectarian or ethnic affiliation. The government is fully cognisant of this and I hope it will begin to apply these criteria in its choice of people to fill other posts.

Essential services are a problem because there are serious shortages of electricity and water and difficulties with rubbish collection. This affects Iraqis' quality of life and must be quickly addressed. The economy has certain positive aspects. For example, the Iraqi currency has stabilised and this prevents rampant inflation. At the same time, however, we have high unemployment. This can be dealt with by launching a massive building programme and there is a need in Iraq for housing, hospitals, schools, road-building, bridges and infrastructure in general. Such labour-intensive projects can absorb many who are unemployed.

Oil is the backbone of Iraq's economy. We depend on oil revenues for most of our expenditure and social and economic projects. The oil industry was so neglected and mismanaged under Saddam that we need billions of dollars of investment to modernise the industry. If this can be done Iraq will be able to treble its oil production from 2 million to 7 million barrels a day. Iraq is one of the most oil-rich countries in the region.

Another matter that has caused a great deal of internal disquiet is the de-Ba'athification programme. The programme's idea was to see that those who were implicated with the former regime should not be allowed to hold any posts in the new government. Most people believe that only those who were implicated in crimes against Iraqi citizens should be barred from service. Those who have not been implicated in such crimes should be allowed to reintegrate into Iraqi society and have opportunities equal to those enjoyed by other Iraqis in respect of seeking state jobs.

Another problem arose in respect of the question of constitutional amendments. Certain contentious issues were left unresolved in the drafting of the constitution. The Iraqi Parliament has, therefore, been asked to establish, at the earliest possible opportunity, a committee to discuss constitutional amendments necessary to deal with these issues, which relate to the extension of the federal system to certain areas and the distribution of revenues from the oil and gas industries.

Relations with Iraq's neighbours are complex. It is known that some of our neighbours have interfered in our domestic affairs, supporting or financing certain armed groups. The Iraqi Government attaches great importance to this and wants to put a stop to the unjustified interference in our national affairs.

The multinational force based in Iraq is there under UN resolution. The initial UN resolution authorising the multinational force in Iraq was made in 2004. It stated that its mandate shall expire upon the completion of the political process, with the election of a constitutionally elected parliament. This took place at the end of December 2005. It was not possible for it to expire at that stage because of the need for the presence of the multinational force. For that reason, the then Iraqi Government agreed with the UN that the mandate should be extended until June 2006. Recently, it was extended again until the end of 2006.

It is the desire of all Iraqis that no foreign soldiers should remain in our country. Unfortunately, the presence of these soldiers was not the choice of the Iraqi people but came about as a result of particular circumstances and the crimes committed by the previous regime. It is now believed that the presence of the multinational force may be required for a further period. However, there is no reason why the character of the force cannot be changed by including troops from other countries or altering its terms of reference.

Today's news that the Iraqi Government will take full control of one governate in the south of the country is encouraging. In addition, the Japanese Prime Minister announced that his country's troops will be withdrawn by the end of July. I believe the Australians and Italians will do likewise. We are gradually moving in the right direction. Hopefully, with the reorganisation of the Iraqi armed forces and security services, we will be in a position to dispense with the services of the multinational troops. Under the UN Security Council resolution, the Iraqi Government can, at any moment, ask for the withdrawal of the entire multinational force from Iraq. It has not done so because of the need for the force to be present. I thank the committee for its patience.

Deputy M. Higgins

I join the Chairman in welcoming our guests and wishing them well in the difficult but important tasks the people of Iraq must undertake. Mr. Pachachi provided us with a thorough presentation, for which I thank him, setting out the difficulties currently facing the people of Iraq.

In the context of the International Republican Institute, I note that many of us spent a great deal of the 1980s trying to roll back the effect of Reaganism. In a very small way, I tried to defend the people of Central America when they were being brutally murdered in El Salvador and when the Government in Nicaragua was being destabilised. At that time, we were still looking forward to the end of the sponsored dictatorship of General Pinochet. Nevertheless, this afternoon we have heard a number of positive things with which we should engage.

As someone who has visited Iraq on a number of occasions other than when conditions of war prevailed, it depresses me to see the ease with which people outside the country accept the litany of deaths reported each day. While there is little point in covering old ground, a heavy price has been paid since the early decisions of people such as Mr. Bremer, who tried to push a "de-Ba'athification" process which significantly diminished the security of the country. I recall speaking to people who worked in hospitals and who, for the sake an extra few dollars a month in their salaries, were members of the Ba'ath Party. They were not subversive, dangerous people, they had simply been sucked into the party. It is important to be positive and, in respect of the new constitutional and political arrangements, reabsorb those people.

The parallel drawn with Northern Ireland is interesting. If a solution had been attempted in Northern Ireland to the complete exclusion of everyone who had participated in actions against the Catholic population, it would not have got very far, no more than if it had been tried the other way around.

It strikes me that the EU's assistance on the technical side has been important. I recall visiting Iraq when the sanctions were in place, an action which did not confer any glory on the western world. Sanctions were a terrible imposition on children's health and nutrition as well as in respect of other matters. I met Margaret Hassan — she was subsequently murdered — in Baghdad where she was working very hard to construct methods to provide food and different forms of medical aid, particularly to children. I think of that when I think of the importance, which Mr. Pachachi stressed, of security and the need to get basic services working again. Electricity enables water treatment plants to work, thereby preventing the spread of water-borne diseases.

These are urgent tasks and it is appalling to see some of the richest countries that have become involved in conferences on the reconstruction of Iraq fail to address them in a way which leads to visible results on the ground. Instead, these countries have invented new forms of corruption. We have received reports of large multinational corporations listing sums of money which were provided for the reconstruction of Iraq but which simply never arrived there. Poor equipment, equipment that could not be serviced and even equipment that did not exist was listed on invoices to the new Iraqi Government. It is important to ensure that the EU's assistance of approximately €700 million to date has been spent properly. The welfare of the people of Iraq is what is important and, in that context, I listened with respect to Mr. Pachachi's contribution.

Mr. Pachachi hinted at a problem in the region. It is a region in which people in Ireland have a certain interest. When I first visited Palestine in the 1980s, it seemed that the future would be secularist in nature. Iraq was also a secularist space at that time. There is little indication that it is likely to be so now, even when one envisages the future. I state this as fact rather than as criticism. It is not unrelated to the choices to be made.

The Irish parallel is interesting in this context. We have had our own version of federalism. However, it is the aspiration of most of the larger parties in the Republic to create a unitary state. While they now use more theological and abstract language about the matter, they have not become federalists. From what I heard, I do not understand precisely how federalism would work in Iraq in light of the great differences in capacity between oil-rich regions and those that are heavily-populated but slightly poorer. Some regions are under greater influence from neighbours than others. As a visitor to Iraq on a number of occasions, I was impressed by its unitary state.

I have sympathy with Iraq in respect of the legacy left behind by the British. Outsiders who have visited left behind appalling legacies. We discussed this, namely, inventing notional kingdoms, conferring kingships and so forth, previously. What I remember learning about Iraq — having visited as a young student — is that it is comprises a set of some of the oldest civilisations in the world and within its borders are located the ruins of the ancient city states, including those of Ur, which made up ancient Sumer. I recall introductions to law based on the origins of the code of Hammurabi.

What we are concerned with is allowing Iraq and its people the space and the right to recover themselves. That is something that must happen as soon as it is safe to do so.

In regard to human rights and the benefits of oil, it would be a great tragedy if the transition that Iraq is undergoing were used to facilitate a new form of exploitation. The resources of Iraq must surely belong to its people and not to predators who seek some kind of auction of such resources. The oil ministry's basic geological data might have been scattered in the streets. It may take time to create the conditions of security in respect of the exploitation of oil. However, that oil surely belongs to the people of Iraq. One would like to think that those who leave will provide a guarantee of non-interference in the right of Iraq to fully utilise its resources for the benefit of its people.

Chairman

We will take the contributions of other members and Mr. Pachachi can reply at the end.

Senator Mooney

I endorse the Chairman's welcome to this distinguished delegation.

Among the briefing documents we received from Mr. Silverleib, I note a reference to living history. Those of us who have followed the pain and suffering of the people of Iraq since the toppling of Saddam Hussein are honoured that a representative gathering of parliamentarians from that divided community and country should visit Ireland in the hope of learning something from our ongoing peace process. I wish I could say our peace process is complete but that is not the case. However, there has been a vast improvement and a major advance since part of the island of Ireland was subjected to sectarian strife that led to torture and murder of innocent civilians, admittedly on a micro scale compared to what is happening in Iraq.

As Mr. Pachachi is aware, there is deep division in this country regarding the invasion of Iraq by coalition forces. The official position is that the Government did not support anything which was not compliant with UN resolutions. Following the invasion, the Government has supported efforts to achieve peace, reconciliation, a resolution to the conflict and the establishment of a constitutional government, as outlined in UN resolutions. There are, however, a number of specific questions, the answers to which might be of assistance to the committee.

A secret US report was published in Irish newspapers today — I suggest that this came about due to the very liberal freedom of information laws in America — which indicates that Iraq is on the verge of collapse. The report states that sectarian strife is reported on a daily basis. It is difficult at this remove to gain an understanding of the reality on the ground because journalists operate within the green zone in Baghdad and do not assess activities in other cities. Journalists only travel outside that zone when embedded with coalition forces, especially the Americans. News and photographs are provided by Iraqis but much of what happens on the ground in Iraq is not reported here. The suffering, torture and mangled bodies are not shown on western television. There is a sensitised approach to news here, which is unhelpful.

Is Mr. Pachachi aware of that process and is he of the view that his Government should ensure that people in western countries, from which most coalition forces come, should be better informed? There is no question that the news is being filtered, even if it is simply because western journalists cannot, on security grounds, report what is happening. I would appreciate it if Mr. Pachachi would address the media issue. Ireland suffered for a long time in a propaganda war in which a much more powerful neighbour disseminated news through London agencies during the worst periods in the 1960s and 1970s.

In the context of certain interpretations by the media and the confusion they generate, can Mr. Pachachi tell me whether resistance to his government is centrally organised or conducted by individual terrorist groups which are religiously motivated or external in origin? It appears that boys and girls as young as 12 years are not only being executed but also tortured beforehand because of their religious and ethnic backgrounds. In retrospect, does Mr. Pachachi consider the failure to model the de-Ba'athification process on the policy of de-Nazification in Germany after the Second World War, under which members of the previous civil service administration were re-employed by the Allies, to be one of the reasons Iraq faces a crisis? A significant proportion of the population has been alienated by the current administration and a great deal of administrative expertise has been lost.

I would like Mr. Pachachi to help me to grasp who is fighting in Iraq and who is responsible for what. Simply, is it ethnicity which is at the root of the problems? I ask the question in the context of the Irish experience, in which we were presented abroad as ethnically divided when, in fact, there were underlying political reasons for the events in Northern Ireland.

Deputy Deenihan

I join colleagues in welcoming the delegation. The day on which it receives such a prestigious delegation is an important one for the committee. It is especially significant at this time. I welcome Mr. Brendan Fitzgibbon, with whom I share a kingdom, that of Kerry. He was very close to being on the USA's 1,500 m team at the last Olympic Games but lost out owing to an injury. If he had not been injured, he would have represented the USA in Athens.

I also welcome Mr. Pachachi. I learned over lunch that he was a close friend of the late Frank Aiken at the United Nations and of Mr. Conor Cruise O'Brien and had great admiration for the former ambassador to the UN, Mr. Fred Boland. Although Mr. Pachachi has never visited Ireland previously, he has very influential connections.

I sat beside Mr. Al-Saidy and Mr. Taki at lunch. The impression I got from both is that what was to be a wall of liberation has become a wall of occupation and that the mistake of the international force was to dismantle the existing structure. Instead of removing the captains, they removed the entire structure and left nothing to replace it. As a result, the country is almost ungovernable. There seems to be no system in place there. I do not wish to sound too pessimistic but if this fragmentation and collapse of authority continues, it will pose major difficulties in respect of restructuring and the restoration of law and order. Mr. Pachachi might refer to that when responding. Mr. Al-Saidy and Mr. Taki, who have very hardline views on this matter, might also respond.

In the opinion of the members of the delegation, how can Ireland and the European Union help Iraq? Ireland provides approximately €6 million in aid to Iraq. Should it provide more? How can the European Union, which has provided a substantial amount of money — much more than Ireland obviously — help more effectively in the future? It is important for us to examine our role and how we can help Iraq in the future.

As a former history teacher, I believe it is important that Iraq should be saved. I taught about the land of Mesopotamia which was situated between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers and which was the cradle of civilisation. The pupils I taught at second level marvelled at Iraq and, in particular, its historical sites. Deputy Michael D. Higgins mentioned the code of Hammurabi — it probably still prevails in Iraq to some extent — and the world's first cities. The invention of the wheel and so many more events occurred in Iraq. The world owes it to Iraq to ensure that it receives every support to get itself on the right track again. That is the sentiment that should go out from this committee.

Senator Bradford

I also welcome the delegation. I visited Iraq with Deputy Michael D. Higgins in 1990. I was fascinated and impressed by Iraq's cultured, civilised society, which existed despite the political difficulties and pressures it has endured for the past generation. No country has been written about more than Iraq. In Ireland, there has been much media comment and debate on Iraq. It is, therefore, very informative and useful for us to have elected representatives from Iraq here to indicate what it is like on the ground and make known to us, in the absence of shading or colouring, their perspectives.

The only beacon of light from Iraq in recent years was the election. It was fascinating, amazing and hugely emotive to see so many people putting their faith in democracy and, against all the odds and difficulties, casting their democratic vote when they had the opportunity to do so. This delegation speaks for all of those people and we must listen closely. We recognise that there are major security problems in Iraq and that there has been a complete breakdown of law and order.

I listened with interest to what Deputy Deenihan said about what he learned from the delegation at lunchtime regarding the collapse of Iraq's civil administration and the efforts to restructure it in the face of the lack of trust and co-operation between the various ethnic groups in Iraqi society. The core problems relate to security, administration and the rebuilding of trust. I look forward to hearing what members of the delegation have to say on that matter and what they would like Ireland to do. We represent different political parties with varying shades of opinion, although perhaps not as varied as in Iraq. We would like to hear what the delegation believes Ireland and the European Union can do to help.

Approximately 50 or 60 years ago, the map of Europe showed divisions which it seemed would be difficult to resolve. In 1945 and 1946, it appeared that the jigsaw of Europe could never be put back together but this was, in fact, done. Perhaps that indicates that no matter how hopeless a situation appears, there is always the political possibility of encouraging people to work together. What can Irish politicians and the EU, in conjunction with the UN, do to ensure the will of the great majority of Iraqis, who proved their desire for a future of co-operation by participating in elections, is fulfilled?

Chairman

Does Mr. Barzinji wish to comment?

Mr. Saedi A. I. Barzinji

There are some questions to be answered.

Senator Mooney

On a point of information, the report in today's Irish Independent to which I referred concerns a leaked cable from the US Embassy in Baghdad signed by the ambassador. There was comment in the context of my questions.

Mr. Barzinji

This is a good opportunity to learn from Ireland in respect of solving the problems of ethnic and sectarian diversity that we are currently suffering in Iraq. To know the truth concerning Iraq, one must know the background to how the state was created in 1921. It was established by Britain after the First World War. Initially, it comprised only two vilayetler, Basra and Baghdad. Mosul, where the Kurds lived, claimed independence as part of Kurdistan. Owing to the interest of the mandate power, the legitimate right of Iraqi Kurds to an independent state was forgotten. Against the will of Kurdistan’s inhabitants, part of the Kurdish region was joined to Iraq. It was, therefore, an artificial state. According to the report presented by the commission of inquiry sent by the League of Nations in 1924, the ward of Iraq did not at any time include Mosul, which was never inside its borders.

The Kurds were obliged to accept the new reality that they had become part of Iraq. Unfortunately, the domination of representatives of one community in Iraq from that time until 2003, without taking into consideration the country's diversity, engendered a great deal of tragedy for the two other communities, namely, the Kurds and the Shia.

That is the situation and the most important condition for a stable, secure and democratic Iraq is to convince our Sunni Arab brothers to accept the new reality that instead of having one community dominant, one must take into consideration the fact that there are two other communities and that all three should participate and share responsibility and power. The adoption of federalism as a framework for the Iraqi state in the new constitution is a very good solution to satisfy the specific needs of each part of the country while allowing the benefits of co-ordination and co-operation between the three components.

There are positive elements in Iraq and people should not only see the negative side of the situation. First, one part of Iraq, Kurdistan in the north, is very calm and stable and democratic change is in progress. Everyone is free and there is press freedom and a multi-party system. Every ethnic group — including the Turkomans, the Assyrians and the Chaldaeans — is free to express itself and be represented in the administration and in parliament. It is, therefore, a good example for Iraq and if we could transfer it to other parts, it would be very beneficial. Now the Kurds are really trying to further that example while attempting to reconcile the two other communities in Iraq. They are playing a very positive role in developing the situation since the elections last December.

There is another element to Iraq. People in Iraq suffered for a long time and, under a discriminatory regime, were deprived of freedom and democracy according to their race, religion and sect. At present, there is no discrimination and there is freedom of expression and of the press. The country has many journalists and radio and television stations and everyone is free to demonstrate. I am not denying that the issue of security is fraught. However, anyone can distinguish between the two periods in Iraq's history. Progress has been made and freedom has been achieved in Iraq. That is why the achievement of Iraq's freedom was very important for its people, with the exception of those involved in intimidation.

The insurgents comprise many different groups. They number Islamic extremists, former members of the Ba'ath party and other groups that formed after the liberation of Iraq. The country had two armies, namely, the army of the former regime and that of the allied Iraqi state whose members were paid very low salaries that did not cover the transportation of soldiers. This was a major mistake made following the liberation of Iraq. An agreement was reached before the liberation when we met in London in December 2002 at a conference involving Iraqi opposition groups. We agreed that, following liberation, a temporary Iraqi Government would be formed to organise an election and solve the problems inherited from the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Our friends can see that there have been positive developments in wake of the liberation of Iraq. Despite the violence which occurred and which claimed innocent victims, we look forward to overcoming these problems. We seek the committee's aid and support, which will help us become more optimistic about the future.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Barzinji. We must vacate this room at 4 p.m. because another committee is due to meet here at that time. We will have the opportunity to speak again when we meet later.

Dr. Walid Al-Shahib

The picture in Iraq is not as gloomy as has been portrayed in the media. There is more to contemporary Iraq than violence and destruction. Many positive developments are taking place. Democracy is genuinely working well. Iraq, given that it suffered 35 years of oppression, needs time to adjust to democracy. Certain interests are hindering the progress of democracy in Iraq. These parties include al-Qaeda and neighbouring countries and countries further afield that interfere in Iraq's affairs. The governments of these countries interfere because they are frightened that democracy might spread to their jurisdictions so they want to prevent it taking root in Iraq.

For the first time, Iraq has a government of national unity. More than 90% of members of the Iraqi Parliament contribute to this Government through their parties and political alliances. The Government represents more than 90% of the Iraqi population and the political attitudes espoused by the members thereof.

What is termed the resistance in Iraq comprises the forces that are resisting the US and multinational forces. Unfortunately, more than 90% of their activities are directed against the Iraqi people. They have slaughtered people, including women and children, and destroyed buildings while using the slogan of resistance to foreign forces in Iraq. There is very little political resistance. As members of the committee can see from the existence of our group, which is composed of representatives of the eight main Iraqi political parties, people from all sectors in Iraqi society are working hard to rebuild the country. All currents of political opinion in Iraq must be reflected in its Government.

We need time to rebuild our country and we require a considerable level of assistance from the committee. It would be helpful if the committee could give us the benefit of its experience in overcoming security problems. We may require some advanced technical support in the area of security, in addition to economic support.

Chairman

Bearing in mind that we must vacate the room shortly, I ask Mr. Pachachi to conclude.

Mr. Pachachi

I will try to conclude in the brief time available. I thank Deputy Michael D. Higgins for his interest. As Dr. Al-Shahib noted, we would very much appreciate technical assistance and expertise from the EU and Ireland. A donors conference, at which $33 billion was pledged — $18 billion of which was promised by the US — was held in Madrid in October 2003. The remaining funds were promised by international organisations and individual countries. Unfortunately, we did not receive the bulk of this money. Some of it was transferred, while the balance was never paid.

The Iraqi Government wishes to cancel all debts run up by the previous regime to prepare for war against its neighbours. We believe that we have paid sufficient compensation for the invasion of Kuwait. I understand that more than $18 billion has already been paid in compensation.

Federalism is a contentious issue in terms of the constitution. The Kurdish situation is different because since the establishment of the Iraqi state, we have recognised that the Kurds represent a different nationality from the Arab nationality of the majority of the population. They were, therefore, entitled to special status. During the past 15 years, the Kurds have done well in establishing a democratic, stable and operational government. The problem is that extending the experiment in Kurdistan to the rest of Iraq raises certain issues, which should be discussed by the committee charged with determining any possible amendments to the constitution.

I agree that oil belongs to all of the people and provinces of Iraq and this is stated in the constitution. However, the oil industry has been neglected and mismanaged for many years and we need a great deal of capital to modernise it. In Iraq, there are two points of view in respect of oil. There are those who believe the matter can be resolved by what they call production sharing, that is, the major oil companies will provide the capital for the modernisation of the industry and will receive the profits as a consequence of sharing in production. Others believe that this would not be in Iraq's interests in the long term and, therefore, other means of acquiring the capital must be found. This is an ongoing debate in Iraq.

I thank Senator Mooney for drawing our attention to this morning's article, which I have read. I expect that we will hear from the United States ambassador on this leak in Iraq soon. I cannot say whether it is true, but I have my doubts. Let us wait for Ambassador Khalilzad to tell us the truth.

As indicated by one of my colleagues, there is freedom of information in Iraq. People can write whatever they want and we have television and radio stations, including dozens of satellite television stations. Many of the world's major newspapers and media organisations have representatives in Iraq. There is hardly a day without detailed articles on Iraq being published in, for example, The New York Times, as well as some English and French newspapers. It may be the same in German newspapers, but I cannot read them. There is a certain interest in Iraq. As far as the Iraqi Government is concerned, we will not prevent anyone writing whatever he or she wishes to write.

Senator Mooney

With respect, that was not my suggestion of inference. I referred to the reality on the ground.

Mr. Pachachi

This matter is being shown and written about by various people, some of whom — depending on their orientation — dismiss these reports while others try to exaggerate them.

Senator Mooney

More journalists have been killed in Iraq in the last three years than during the entire Vietnam War.

Mr. Pachachi

There is no doubt that the——

Senator Mooney

If Mr. Pachachi were a western journalist, would he enter Baghdad on his own?

Mr. Pachachi

I am subject to the same stresses as western journalists.

Senator Mooney

I am aware of that.

Chairman

The Senator should address his remarks through the Chair.

Senator Mooney

I apologise.

Chairman

Our time has concluded.

Mr. Pachachi

Resistance is not centrally organised. Various groups are acting without co-ordinating their activities. The Iraqi Government decided, therefore, to deal with them in different ways. We fight those with whom we cannot engage in dialogue and, in respect of those with whom we can engage in dialogue for the time being, we——

Chairman

I must intrude for a moment. Is Senator Mooney aware that there is a vote in the Seanad?

Senator Mooney

It is not a vote, proceedings in the Seanad are merely resuming. I was watching the screen. I thank the Chairman for bringing the matter to my attention.

Mr. Pachachi

The matter of the de-Ba'athification process is being re-examined. Many of us agree that perhaps the way in which it was carried out was not fair to some people. We should try to get as many competent Iraqis with expertise into the Government because we need the service of everyone who is competent.

Chairman

We have exceeded the time allocated for the meeting. Perhaps we can continue this discussion at the reception later. We will give our guests the time——

Mr. Pachachi

We are all proud to have been elected by the Iraqi people. It is a personal source of great pride. For the first time in my life, I have been elected.

Chairman

I congratulate Mr. Pachachi. I have been elected nine times so far. I apologise but we must conclude. I thank our guests for their interesting and sincere contributions. They began by emphasising the problems with security and every member present would be sympathetic in that regard. Our guests also emphasised the need for a dialogue. Every member would agree on that because the more one discusses matters at all levels and informs people of such at an appropriate time the better it is for everyone. Members are deeply interested in Iraq and concerned about its future and progress. That would be the genuine opinion among Irish people as a whole.

I understand that our guests will now be given a brief tour of Leinster House. Following that, I invite them and all available members of the committee to attend a reception in the private dining room at 5 p.m. at which we can continue our discussions. The other items on the committee's agenda will be taken at our meeting next week.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 27 June 2006.