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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Overseas Development) debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jul 2008

Overseas Development Aid: Discussion with Minister of State.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Peter Power. I congratulate him again on becoming Minister of State responsible for these issues. During our recent discussion with Dóchas we referred to the interdepartmental committee on development, which the Minister of State chairs. At the time, the sub-committee decided there would be no harm in asking the Minister of State to attend to explain to us how that committee works, what work he foresees it doing in the coming years and, generally, his opinions and stance with regard to Irish Aid as it moves forward. I refer to the progress being made, etc.

The Minister of State is accompanied today by Irish Aid representatives, Mr. Ronan Murphy, Mr. Brendan Rogers, Mr. Finbarr O'Brien, Ms Mary Barrett, Mr. Tom Sneyd and Mr. Noel White. I invite the Minister of State to make his opening remarks, after which I will open up the meeting to members.

I thank the Chairman. I appreciate the sub-committee's invitation to appear before it today and I look forward to an active engagement with it in the coming months and, we hope, years to deal with the important issues of international aid and overseas development. I also compliment members on their initiative in holding this meeting because the issue under discussion is more important than I had realised and, consequently, this meeting is highly opportune.

I am grateful for this opportunity to present an overview of the work to date of the interdepartmental committee on development and on the Irish Aid programme for 2008. The White Paper on Irish Aid highlighted policy coherence for development as an important area for action. It included a commitment to establish a new interdepartmental committee on development. The White Paper foresaw two main aims for this committee, namely, to strengthen coherence in the Government's approach to development and to make best use of the expertise and skills available across the public service. The interdepartmental committee on development was duly established in April 2007. The following June, the new programme for Government included a commitment to adopt an integrated approach to development across all Departments, a practice that is commonly described in the media as joined-up thinking.

The committee has a consultative and advisory role. Its secretariat is provided by Irish Aid and it will report annually to the Minister for Foreign Affairs to outline its activities and make recommendations as appropriate. The committee's recommendations can be fed into the work of Irish Aid and relevant Departments.

I chaired the sixth meeting of the committee on 19 June last. I am pleased to report that I saw active engagement in the work of the committee by its members who are senior level officials from all Departments. It is fair to say the committee already has established itself as a key forum in Government to share knowledge and views on development issues across the Civil Service. This is reflected in the scope of its activities to date.

The committee has focused on several areas of work. It is seeking to develop a coherent interdepartmental approach to Irish policy in multilateral fora. It established a subgroup on multilateral organisations to work on this area. The committee also has established a subgroup on skills sets to work further on making the best use of the expertise and skills available across the public service. The subgroup is conducting an audit of existing technical co-operation with a view to developing guidelines in this regard, drawing from international best practice. The consultants also will identify gaps in the area of technical co-operation.

The subgroup on skills sets will oversee awareness raising seminars on overseas development in eight pilot Departments. I support this initiative as I strongly believe that a key element of strengthening coherence in the Government's approach to development is the promotion of awareness of development issues and Ireland's programme of assistance to developing countries among policy makers across the Civil Service and public service. Depending on the experience of this pilot initiative, the interdepartmental committee will consider whether it should be rolled out to all Departments and, where appropriate, public bodies.

In addition to this solid body of work, the committee has received a presentation from the director of the Dutch policy coherence unit. The Netherlands is perceived to be a leader of best practice in this field. The committee also received presentations on Ireland and the World Bank and on development, climate change and adaptation. The committee has also liaised closely with the Institute for International Integration Studies in Trinity College which is conducting an extensive research project at present on policy coherence for development on behalf of the advisory board for Irish Aid. One product of the project will be a scoping report that will identify key issues in Ireland in respect of policy coherence for development and which of them should be most urgently addressed. The report is due to be published next September.

The work of the interdepartmental committee on development has resulted in an increasing sense of engagement and common purpose among participants. A stronger development perspective across Departments is beginning to take hold. I see great potential for this committee to advance Ireland's progress in the area of policy coherence for development. I am convinced this will help maximise the synergies between development policy and policies being pursued in other Departments, resulting in further enhancement of Ireland's aid programme.

In short, members of the sub-committee will appreciate there are often differences in emphasis and approach among Departments across a range of policy issues, which is natural, not all of which have a common goal. For our part, as a Department interested in promoting international development on a national basis, the interdepartmental committee is a highly important tool to ensure the Government works effectively and efficiently rather than disparately.

I now will turn to the Irish Aid programme for 2008. At the recent Estimates discussion before the select committee, I gave a comprehensive overview of plans for 2008. I intend to focus, with the Chairman's agreement, on a few main issues. First, I wish to make clear, as I have done before to the joint committee, that the Irish Aid programme will continue to be focused on the fight against global poverty and exclusion. The millennium development goals continue to be at the heart of our effort and I intend to build on the work of my predecessors in providing leadership towards halving world poverty by 2015. Ireland is playing its part and is the sixth largest donor in the world. This is a record of which Irish people can be justly proud.

The challenges facing developing countries are more daunting than ever. They include humanitarian emergencies, climate change, the recent rise in world food prices, HIV and AIDS and poor governance and corruption. The impact of these issues is felt most by the world's poorest communities or, in other words, on those who already are least able to cope, especially in respect of food supply and food security.

I saw for myself the scale of the food security problem and elements for an effective response during my visit to Malawi last week. As members are aware, Malawi is Ireland's latest programme country and is among the poorest in the world. Almost 80% of the population depend on subsistence farming for survival. Rising fuel and fertiliser prices in particular are having a highly detrimental impact on already vulnerable communities. The response must be multifaceted and sustained. It must be focused on agricultural productivity and livelihoods, research and the removal of infrastructure bottlenecks.

During a visit to a village called Khulumgira in the Dedza district, which receives support from Irish Aid, I gained a sense of how progress can be and is being made. In 2002, 20% of the children in the village did not survive beyond the age of five years. The dependency on maize was total and food insecurity was chronic. The response by Irish Aid, in collaboration with international organisations, included the introduction of new seed varieties and improved soil fertility arising from measures such as planting trees, crop diversification and improved irrigation techniques. These steps have considerably improved food yields, including those from the humble Irish potato. Perhaps we might discuss that point later in the meeting. They have provided a further 400 participating villages with additional income which is invested in agricultural tools and allows children to prosper and stay in school longer. The results from spending by Irish taxpayers are real, lasting, sustainable and tangible.

Irish Aid will allocate €10 million to Malawi this year to support efforts in the food security area and governance programmes. The finalisation of a multi-annual programme of assistance next year will help consolidate the progress already made. Ireland already has provided €3 million in special funding for the UN World Food Programme to allow it to respond to increased food prices. Our funding of the Productive Safety Nets programme in Ethiopia will reach €11 million this year. This programme provides a lifeline for more than 7 million of the country's poorest people and is helping to offset the effects of recent food shortages.

As well as support for governments, NGOs and international organisations, it is clear that we need a comprehensive policy response to food price and food security issues. The Government's hunger task force will report in the coming weeks. The report will identify the additional and effective contributions that Ireland can make to international efforts to reduce hunger.

As part of the expansion of the aid programme, we have greatly enhanced Ireland's contribution to international emergency and recovery efforts following humanitarian disasters. Central to this response has been the development of the rapid response initiative. This initiative, which harnesses the skills of many Irish people, has greatly enhanced Ireland's contribution to the international community's response to such disasters. Already this year, humanitarian stocks positioned under the initiative at the Curragh and Brindisi have provided shelter and sanitation to those affected by cyclone Nargis in Burma and the Sichuan province earthquake in China.

I witnessed at Dublin Airport two weeks ago the loading of an airlift of supplies from the Curragh base. These supplies provide shelter and basic sanitation for 10,000 people affected by cyclone Nargis. As well as providing these supplies, the Government made €1 million available to international partners responding to the crisis in Burma.

A second wave of recruitment to the rapid response corps earlier this year allowed us to increase the size of the corps by half. This has greatly enhanced our ability to quickly provide the individuals and skills required by the international community. So far this year, members of the corps have been deployed in support of international responses to emergencies in Ethiopia, Darfur, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Nepal and Sri Lanka.

Developing countries, which have contributed least to climate change, are feeling its worst effects, including drought and failing crops. It is becoming clear that climate change has the potential to reverse decades of investment in development and make it much harder to meet the millennium development goals of halving extreme poverty by 2015. In the face of this challenge, Irish Aid is working with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the EU, international organisations and developing countries to build capacity to address climate change in the most vulnerable parts of the world.

HIV/AIDS has a particularly invidious impact on the world's most vulnerable communities. This year, Irish Aid will allocate €100 million for the fight against this and other communicable diseases. A new three-year partnership between Irish Aid and the Global Fund to fight AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria, worth €90 million, was launched in April.

Vulnerability to rising prices, the effects of climate change and HIV-AIDS is often accentuated by conflict and political violence. Unfortunately, Zimbabwe is a good or bad case in point, depending on one's perspective . The political crisis there has contributed to a dire humanitarian situation. Ireland, with many other countries, is pressing for a peaceful resolution to the situation and we are working to respond to some of the more pressing needs of the people. Since 2006, we have provided over €25 million for humanitarian aid, primarily for food relief and HIV and AIDS programmes, through NGOs and international organisations. We are closely monitoring the deteriorating situation and will adjust our approach as needed. I had the opportunity last week in my conversations with President Mutharika of Malawi to express the views of Dáil Éireann arising out of the recent debate and the serious and grave concern, which is shared across all parties and Members of Parliament in Ireland about the deteriorating situation. It is only through engagement, particularly with the neighbouring countries of Zimbabwe, including South Africa, that international pressure can be brought to bear in this area.

We may have to suspend for a vote.

I apologise. The contribution is longer than I thought.

Does the Minister of State wish to finish, after which we can go?

It is in the Chairman's hands.

I think the Minister of State should finish.

I will continue as quickly as possible because I am anxious for members to contribute.

This has been and will continue to be a core principle of the Irish Aid programme. Many of the countries in which we work are among the poorest on the planet and have weak systems of governance. There are valid concerns about mismanagement and corruption but this is not a reason for Ireland or other donors to walk away. It is worth remembering that poor governance most affects the poorest.

I apologise but we must suspend for a vote. The Minister of State should come back rather than rush his contribution.

Sitting suspended at 4.45 p.m. and resumed at 5.10 p.m.

Would the Minister of State like to continue?

I shall try to be as brief as possible so that we can begin our discussion. It is important we build ownership in Ireland for the programme. Increased public awareness of the work and role of Irish Aid is a key challenge. The sub-committee's role in this respect may, if the Chairman wishes, be an important one. The engagement of the Oireachtas is crucial to the programme's transparency and effectiveness. I am delighted the Chairman and committee members will visit Uganda and Tanzania shortly. I will be interested in hearing their impressions and ideas upon their return.

As a Limerick man, I cannot but be proud that Irish Aid is in the process of relocating its headquarters to that city. There are many significant challenges in managing an expansion of the programme while the move occurs, but I am happy with the progress we are making. More than 60 officers are in place in Limerick and, based on the latest indications from the Office of Public Works, all those due to decentralise to Irish Aid's new headquarters will do so by the end of autumn. Agreement has been reached on the terms and conditions that will apply to the development specialist grades and I expect a significant number will transfer to Limerick with their colleagues.

A briefing has been provided for members on the audit arrangements in Irish Aid. Irish Aid has rigorous accounting and audit controls in place. Audits of the Irish Aid programme are undertaken on the basis of a three-year rolling work plan, with clear priority being given to the audit of expenditure in programme countries.

Our internal auditors, based in our missions in the programme countries, implement an audit programme of inspections of partner organisations in receipt of Irish Aid funding. Where any issues of concern arise, senior management is alerted. Management has the responsibility of providing responses to such audit queries, and to follow up on the implementation of the recommendations made. In addition, the internal auditors review the controls in place at our missions. The missions are audited annually by internationally-reputable audit firms.

In addition to these robust internal systems, the Department's audit committee provides an independent appraisal of our audit and evaluation arrangements through regular interaction with the evaluation and audit unit and with senior management. The committee meets regularly with the Secretary General and annually with the Comptroller and Auditor General. It also publishes an annual report on its work. Its 2006 report is available at www.dfa.ie.

Delivering a high quality aid programme as funding expands poses enormous challenges for every level of the Irish Aid programme. The 2006 White Paper recognised this and proposed a major review of the management of the programme to ensure its systems, structures, procedures and staffing can deliver a high quality aid programme during this era of growth. Work is now well advanced and focused on drafting the final report and recommendations.

In summary, developing countries continue to face very significant challenges that are further complicated by the economic uncertainty around the world, including here at home. The Irish Aid programme itself is also undergoing a period of change. It is more important than ever to keep a clear focus on responding in a flexible way to the needs of the world's most vulnerable people through the partnership approach. In so doing I am confident the Irish Aid programme will continue to make a very real difference in the fight against global poverty. This is a challenge for our generation and it is one to which I am fully committed. I thank members of their attention. I welcome any questions.

I thank the Chairman and the Minister of State. I apologise for being in and out of the meeting but that is one of the down sides of life in the Dáil in recent times. I do not know what we will do for exercise in the summer when we are not running from one committee to another, up the stairs to the Dáil and on to the office. One certainly keeps fit.

The Minister of State referred to the millennium development goals and the aim of trying to eradicate half of world poverty by 2015. This was a very ambitious target when it was set. Does the Minister of State believe it can be achieved on a worldwide basis? I know it is outside his remit.

He referred to an additional €11 million in funding to Ethiopia. Does he know how much money we gave to Ethiopia this year? Does he have concerns in respect of the horrendous State-sponsored crimes? We are giving money to a Government responsible for such horrendous activity. We pride ourselves on unconditional grant and unconditional aid but the actions of the Ethiopian Government seem reprehensible, yet we are giving it money.

The Minister of State referred to the Estimates he presented in recent weeks. I would like to have access to the internal and external audits of the expenditure of Irish Aid. Can I get that documentation? If not, why not? Does the Minister of State agree that there is something inherently wrong if, given that we are dispersing public money, the public cannot be assured of exactly what is happening to the money?

Can we reach our millennium development goals by 2015? It is a difficult question to answer but we must reaffirm our commitment and ambition to get there. The committee and the wider community are aware that we have set ourselves an even more ambitious target than 2015 in respect of one of those goals, to increase our overseas development aid to 0.7% of gross national income by 2012. This is a goal we aspire to and one I am confident we will reach in time.

The other goal is to eliminate endemic and chronic poverty, which is an international, global effort. It was extremely ambitious at the time and looks even more ambitious now. It has been complicated by developments that were not on the horizon when the world leaders signed up to the millennium development goals. Two factors are the rapid escalation of food prices and fuel prices.

The increase in fuel prices had an adverse impact on the world economy and the richer countries the economies of which are struggling. Another by-product of the increase in fuel prices, which was not envisaged, was the impact on the cost of fertilisers. Many countries in sub-Saharan Africa depend enormously on fertilisers. The price of fuel and crude oil has gone through the roof and this has had a knock-on effect on the price of fertilisers. In Malawi, which I visited last week, one eighth of its budget, some €100 million, is spent on fertilisers because the maize crop, on which they are 90% dependent, relies completely on fertiliser. Since they introduced fertiliser subsidies in recent years, the crop has come on enormously but they cannot afford that anymore. One factor will make it very hard for that country to reach its millennium development goals.

Other issues will make it more of a challenge, such as humanitarian issues as we have seen in Zimbabwe. This is a chronic situation in what was the bread basket of Africa. It has degenerated into a completely dysfunctional society, which the Irish Government abhors in the strongest possible way. That factor could not have been foreseen in 2000.

Climate change is another factor. It accelerated since world leaders subscribed to the millennium development goals. It has become scientific fact rather than scientific speculation, which it was in 2000. That is having a serious impact on countries affected most by food shortages but which now, through factors outside their control and which they have not caused, are suffering most. It will be difficult to reach our millennium development goals by 2015 but it is a challenge to which we must rise.

Regarding Ethiopia, the amount of bilateral aid in 2008 was €36 million, primarily to NGOs and international organisations. No money is given directly to the Ethiopian Government. We could not countenance that. It is being channelled through other organisations so that it reaches people on the ground. The international organisations are the United Nations World Food Programme and the subregional resource facility, the UN emergency planning organisations. Both organisations have a history of delivering on the ground and running in parallel with the government so that the money is not swallowed up by it, which is a criticism sometimes made. No doubt it is a difficult situation.

The third question related to internal audits. Robust systems are in place prior to coming to internal audits. Practically all our missions in our programme countries have auditing sections. In turn, these are audited by internationally reputable firms, such as PricewaterhouseCoopers and others. The Department has a robust auditing and evaluation section which is overseen on two levels, namely, the independent external audit committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The specific cases mentioned by the Deputy relate to internal audit reports. It is recognised as being a key tenet of auditing worldwide, not only in government but also in major corporations, that internal audits are not published. The reason is to enable the people conducting these audits to prepare the most robust reports possible. Human nature being what it is makes it more difficult for one to produce audited reports on one's colleagues which may be the subject of publication. This is recognised by professional auditing associations throughout the world.

Suffice to say that once the internal audit reports are prepared and produced to senior management, if they suggest any element of lack of accountability it is a matter for senior management to act on them. I am open to correction but I believe these reports are available to the Comptroller and Auditor General and this is an important oversight. The internal audit reports, important though they are in terms of internal management, are not kept completely internal to the Department but are laid bare to the Comptroller and Auditor General who is recognised as being completely independent and a scrupulous guard of the public purse.

I wish Deputy Power well in his role as Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with responsibility for Irish Aid. I know he will do an excellent job.

I thank the Deputy.

My questions tie in with what Deputy Timmins stated. I am glad the Minister of State restated the fact that 0.7% of GNP will be achieved by 2012. I would like this to be more battened down not only as an aspiration but as something we are confident we will achieve. I notice little words of caution which disturb me to a slight extent but they are understandable in the present circumstances.

I do not know whether the conflict resolution unit is part of Irish Aid or whether questions should be addressed to the Department of Foreign Affairs in general. The money Irish Aid spends on the prevention of corruption and improved governance is important as these issues should be addressed. Will the Minister of State provide more detail on the achievements of Irish Aid with regard to these matters?

On decentralisation, 60 people are in place in Limerick. How many does the Minister of State expect to have in place by the end of 2008? With regard to Ethiopia, recently all committee members received a letter from GOAL expressing concern at the routing of moneys through the Ethiopian Government. These legitimate concerns are based on reports from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. The Minister of State outlined various aspects of this to Deputy Timmins. I would be obliged if he provided a note to the committee secretariat so it can disseminate it to committee members and we can respond to the letter we received.

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes which are much appreciated. His first question was on our commitment given to the General Assembly of 0.7% of GNP to international aid and development. Within the past month, this was reaffirmed by the Taoiseach upon assuming office. This remains our genuine commitment. That is not to state that in challenging economic circumstances this is any easier. It is not, it is harder.

The challenge for Government not only in this area but in every endeavour and in every Department is to take whatever appropriate actions are necessary and prudent in the national interest and position the economy to allow us to fulfil our long-term commitments. There is no point in having an economy that is not operating at full capacity and committing itself to a certain percentage of its GNP if this amount in real terms is not growing at a reasonable rate.

Zimbabwe, which was mentioned, could have committed to 20% of GNP for international aid 20 years ago but it would not be worth anything now because it does not produce anything. We have a culture of real commitment to international aid and the development effort. The only way this can be fulfilled in real terms, not only in 2012 or 2015 but also in 2020 and 2025, is to have an economy that is robust enough to contribute significant sums. We learned to our cost, particularly in the early and mid-1980s, that if we do not take appropriate action, percentage commitments do not mean a great deal when the economy is not producing money.

I may have addressed part of the corruption and governance issue when I answered Deputy Timmins. It is important to state that governance remains an important component of our overall aid package. We work with and through governments. It is in the interests of our programme that these governments and their systems of audit, control and oversight are built up to a level where we will not have to continuously oversee it in ten or 15 years' time but that we support the systems in place. I mentioned the Comptroller and Auditor General. Many countries throughout the world do not have this system. For us to spend reasonable money in assisting countries to put these systems in place is a long-term way of ensuring our money is spent effectively.

Governance is extremely important. It is important to state in the clearest possible terms that we do not fund corrupt governments. We never have done and never will. It is important to say that clearly.

Sometimes Irish Aid works in very difficult circumstances in fledgling democracies where the sorts of systems and oversights we take for granted here, after 70 years of democracy, are not in place. That presents challenges in terms of the aid we give but it is not correct to portray the Irish Aid programme as giving open cheque books to governments. The approach adopted is far more sophisticated than that and the programme is being administered by renowned experts in their field. By any international comparisons, especially those drawn by the OECD in the DAC peer review, the Irish system of aid stands up to scrutiny and is one of which we can be proud.

With regard to decentralising to Limerick, we expect to have the full complement of staff in place by the end of the year. I do not have precise figures for the committee but I know that up to 60 people are in place in Limerick and more than 100 more will decentralise. I apologise for not having precise figures to hand but I can forward them to the committee when they become available.

Regarding the letter from GOAL, I may have answered the question earlier in saying we do not give money to corrupt Governments. We can provide information in that regard that will assist members in responding to that letter. I hope that my earlier response answered the Deputy's question.

Absolutely, and the note to which the Minister of State refers would be helpful.

I have a number of questions for the Minister of State, after which I will invite questions from other members. The Minister of State made it clear that the Government is reaffirming its commitment to its target of 0.7% of gross national product. However, in his next sentence he said that we are facing challenging economic circumstances. He referred to the uncertainty in the economy and how that might affect the Government's goal.

I did not say it would affect the goal. It is still our clear commitment and the Taoiseach reiterated that in the last month.

This is a commitment, not an aspiration, and remains so. Is that correct?

Yes. I was just pointing out that most countries are in difficult economic circumstances at the moment

The way our economy is going, we might have overshot the 0.7% target already.

That is the very point. We must have a robust economy. In 2000, 0.7% of GNP would not have amounted to much but owing to our enormous subsequent growth, it amounts to a very large figure now and is making enormous changes on the ground. It is in all our interests to ensure that by the time we reach 2012, or 2015 for the millennium development goals, the economy is in a position to deliver the sort of money needed to achieve the other goals, such as poverty reduction.

The points the Minister of State made regarding the interdepartmental committee on development are quite vague. I am still not getting the essence of some of the parts involved. I ask the Minister of State to expand on what he said concerning the subgroup on multilateral organisations. What exactly is that about? Does it indicate a rethinking of where we put our money as far as large organisations like the United Nations are concerned? What is the subgroup doing?

The general point is to have the senior officials from all of the main Departments sitting around the table so that every time major decisions are made in their Departments, which filter up to their level, they ask themselves what the development impact of such decisions will be. In other words, they examine how decisions will affect our overseas aid development programme. In that way, they can tailor their policies so that they do not conflict with, and if possible will dovetail with, the Irish international aid development programme.

The aim of the multilateral organisations sub-group is to ensure a coherent approach by Departments to a wide range of multilateral bodies in which Ireland participates. Many of the issues facing the international community are relevant to the work of a number of Departments, for example, the global food crisis and climate change. The subgroup provides a mechanism for Departments to exchange views on policy. It also ensures our representatives across the entire multilateral system are presenting Ireland's position in a consistent and properly informed manner. The current World Trade Organisation talks, for example, impact on a number of Departments and the idea is that the overall national approach would reflect the different strands of policy, whether on agriculture, trade or, increasingly, our commitment to international aid and development. The idea is that the various strands of Government come to an agreement on our national position on issues. Our overall policy position is informed by various strands, especially our international development effort.

Before the formation of the subgroup, each Department formulated its own policy in line with the programme for Government. Now, representatives from every Department sit around the table and discuss their various programmes which are then stress tested for their impact on our international aid programme. If the impact is an adverse one, the subgroup can discuss ways to overcome that. It is impossible to have every Department operating coherently all the time but the subgroup allows every Department to analyse its policies from the point of view of development and ensures our overall national effort is more coherent and integrated. We plan, from September onwards, to examine more closely the policies of two or three specific Departments to determine how they are impacting on our aid and development programme. If we are spending €800 million on international development aid, we must ensure it is not being negated by a Department adopting a policy that will adversely affect people in sub-Saharan Africa, for example.

I have a brief question which I also raised at the time of the Estimates. I refer to small development projects, undertaken by individuals or small groups such as running a school in India or setting up an orphanage in Kathmandu. If such individuals or groups are seeking aid, is there any door in Irish Aid they can knock on, so to speak? If so, where is that door?

They should knock on the door of the civil society section. There are many opportunities for people like that to contribute. I presume the Deputy is referring to young people.

Not just young people. If I were involved in a project to build a school in India and engaged in fund-raising to that end, would money be available through Irish Aid to match those funds, for example?

Yes, there is funding available for such projects which is disbursed by the civil society section of Irish Aid. A number of different funding streams are available. If people contact that section, they will be given the appropriate application forms, advice and so forth. We certainly encourage that type of application, even if it is small and appears to be insignificant in the overall budgetary context. Funding such projects spreads the message throughout the country that this is a national effort in which everyone must play a part. The Government can play a lead role, obviously, but if everyone buys into it, then we as a country will take a lead role in the international aid development effort.

Deputy Timmins asked about audits. The Minister of State said that missions are audited by external firms, whereas departmental audits are conducted by an independent external auditor as well as by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We give considerable amounts to multilateral organisations, such as the UN, to operate programmes in our partner countries. Can the Minister of State outline the audit system used by the Department to determine the effectiveness of our money when it is spent by these organisations?

That is a good question. We do not audit the funding we provide for UN organisations because they are subject to audit by the UN board of auditors which is similar to the European Court of Auditors. Audit reports on these processes are presented to the relevant executive boards of the organisations concerned and are available to us through our permanent mission to the UN.

Our processes are quite rigorous but would the Minister of State accept that theirs are not as robust?

Before answering the Chairman's question, I will have to investigate the matter further. The processes of audit and oversight in Irish Aid are very robust. They have been tested internationally by the OECD, which is recognised as the peer review organisation, and they stand up to scrutiny. I will revert to the sub-committee on whether the UN compares favourably with our peer reviews.

Can Mr. O'Brien comment?

Mr. Finbarr O’Brien

Generally speaking, the UN has a strong audit system. As the Minister of State explained, audit reports are sent to the governing bodies. If Ireland is on a governing body at any particular time, the audit unit will comment on the audit reports submitted to the body to assist our officials on the executive board.

Can the Minister of State indicate where we are going in respect of the second subgroup on skills? I note a reference to an audit of existing technical co-operation with a view to developing guidelines in this regard. What is the end game?

The subgroup of the committee was established to allow for detailed consideration on how wide ranging expertise across the Government can be harnessed for the good of overseas development. However, as Dóchas pointed out in its presentation to the sub-committee in May, there are potential pitfalls in this area, particularly in respect of supply driven responses which can stretch the capacity of partner countries. That is why the subgroup has engaged a consultant to conduct an audit of existing technical co-operation with a view to developing guidelines for drawing from international best practice. The consultants will also identify gaps in the area of technical co-operation. This work is scheduled to continue until October, at which point the subgroup will report back to the interdepartmental committee. I hope at that stage to be able to advise the sub-committee on a useful targeted initiative in this area. It is a fledgling group and has only begun its work in recent months.

Is the Government taking the view that we are donating upwards of €1.2 billion but that we could have a greater impact in technical areas if administrative shortfalls were addressed?

Many of the countries with which we work have observed Ireland's recent past, when our economy experienced difficulties and our growth was weak. The systems we had in place at that time were not strong but we are now recognised internationally as a leader in terms of economic development and good governance. A programme is being put in place to transfer our bank of technical and other knowledge to countries that request assistance. The name has not been finalised but we are considering calling it the "Celtic tiger initiative". The factors that supported the development of the Celtic tiger economy, such as education, infrastructure and encouraging foreign direct investment, could inform other countries. People around the world are interested in learning how these factors contributed to our burgeoning economy. Sometimes, the transfer of skills and expertise is more important than direct aid.

Are we maximising intellectual property within the Government?

Yes. Several examples could be cited. The ESB is working in Lesotho to transfer its knowledge. On other occasions it has sold its expertise on a commercial basis but it is possible to transfer it for free to countries which cannot afford to pay. Last week I had discussions with the President of Malawi on opportunities for developing hydroelectricity given the country's shortage of resources for traditional fossil fuel power stations. Malawi has the physical conditions necessary for hydroelectricity generation but it lacks the skills. What kick-started industrialisation in the late 1920s and early 1930s was construction of the Ardnacrusha power station near Limerick. When we were a fledgling democracy with an economy on its knees, skills were more important than money.

The Minister of State referred in his opening remarks to an issue I raised during our consideration of the Estimates. He talks about building ownership with the public for the overall Irish Aid programme and public awareness. I raised this at the last meeting regarding more difficult economic times. My party and I do not think there should be any reduction in our goals and the Minister has stated that today. However I fear and am concerned that people will question the amount of money we put into Irish Aid if the economy deteriorates further. My concern is that the Department is not selling the concept of Irish Aid strongly enough. It needs to demonstrate to the public the impact of the work and where their tax money goes.

The Department made some attempts through the media. I watched a programme last week and there was also the programme on former Deputy Liz O'Donnell. There is the interpretive centre in O'Connell Street but that is not enough. As a politician I know how hard it is to get any Government message through. We learned that the hard way in the Lisbon treaty referendum. I will return to this because we are not selling the Irish Aid message through multimedia in this country strongly enough. The danger is that people will pop up and say we are spending too much money on these countries. Whether we like it or not, the arguments made about funding corrupt governments have had some traction. They are relevant to the debate whether they are correct. We talked about this last time and the Minister put it in his opening remarks. Has he any ideas on how we can do that?

Thank you very much, Chairman. Both of us share a concern about this area. The sort of programme we have put in place over several years depends to a large degree on public confidence and buy-in. This is not a Government programme but a national programme. The people are generous by their nature and history and need to be aware of the different programmes. They need to buy into it and I am confident that they do and will. However, as I indicated at the previous meeting, I have identified that as a source of concern. Several initiatives have been taken. That information will be given directly to this committee in the short to medium term. Apart from the information centre on O'Connell Street, I cannot emphasise the importance of the public trips. I went on one last week and the Chairman will lead a delegation in the coming weeks. Cross-party support and support among Dáil and Seanad Members is very important because they represent the people. This committee has an important role to play in that.

The multimedia aspects the Chairman mentioned are very important. Televisual impact, regional newspapers and regional radio are important. We are updating our website and there are several other initiatives, details of which I am not in a position to give because I am working on them. This is partly for the reason the Chairman identified and which I accept. We are working on those initiatives and will come back to the committee on them. I do not want to say that Irish Aid effort requires everybody to sing from the same hymn sheet. However, sometimes when there are discussions and debates on where the aid goes, and whether it goes to corrupt governments, that can send mixed messages to people and they can become confused and questioning. From Irish Aid's point of view, it does not go to corrupt governments. However, the overall commitment remains and that is a commitment we have made as a country and as a people. We need to move together.

The Government cannot do everything in this area. That is why I mentioned to Deputy Timmins that we welcome small civil society groups working on the ground to become involved. If, for example, a local group in Dungarvan decides to go out and build a house for somebody, in the overall scheme of things it will not solve world poverty but it will allow everybody in that area to say there is important work being done and Irish Aid and the Government support and encourage it. The Nordic countries have a fabulous spirit of international development and co-operation. It takes a long time to engender that sense of internationalism but young Irish people have bought into this because of globalisation and how young people have engaged internationally. The web is very important and I am examining this. We recently appointed a field officer, which is a very important development in getting the message out. We are working on a communication strategy. On Monday I will chair a meeting on that communications strategy with a view to bringing that message forward. I agree with the Chairman and we are working on it.

That is fair enough. As far as the sub-committee is concerned — I discussed this with people such as Mr. Dermot Gallagher, Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs — there must be an oversight role for Irish Aid and I am glad to fill that gap. I would place our role in going to Tanzania and Uganda in an oversight capacity. The public generally does not like politicians getting on aeroplanes, regardless of what good they might do at the other end. My role is oversight, not selling. As the Minister of State alluded to, one needs to sell this at a local level. He needs to think about doing it through media organisations at a local level.

I should have mentioned Africa Day, which was held recently. My Department put in a great deal of work to make that the success it was. There were many local events in Limerick and 20 other areas around the country. We got the message out. Sometimes one will not see it up in lights on the television——

Different audiences listen at different times, as the Minister of State knows. The trick is to get to those different audiences. There are people who do not listen to local radio or buy the local newspaper. There are people who buy only The Irish Times. It is a multi-faceted audience. There are people who will never know about the interpretive centre on O’Connell Street or Africa Day or will not watch those programmes with Liz O’Donnell. There is a different sector of society that interacts with the media only in very local ways. The Minister of State gets the message.

I certainly do.

I thank him and his officials for coming here today.

The sub-committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. sine die.
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