Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence debate -
Tuesday, 4 Jul 2023

Engagement with Representatives of Church in Chains

An Cathaoirleach

Our agenda today is meeting with representatives of Church in Chains. Our guests include Mr. Davood H.M., from Iran, Pastor Lesado Nathan, from Nigeria, Mr. Stanly Sam, from India and Mr. David Turner, from Ireland. They are all very welcome. We look forward to hearing from them regarding the issues and challenges being faced in parts of the world that can perhaps be considered the most conflict-ridden.

The format of our meeting is in the usual manner. We will hear an opening statement followed by a question-and-answer session with members of the committee. I ask the members to be concise in their questioning and to allow everyone an opportunity to participate. While some members are present in the room, there are a number online, including Senator Wilson and Deputies Lawless and Cronin. We might be joined by some more and they too will have an opportunity to engage with our witnesses.

I remind witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that we should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, any statements that may be potentially defamatory with regard to any identifiable person or entity will result in a direction to discontinue the remarks. It is imperative that any such direction be complied with. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located within the Leinster House complex.

I call Mr. Turner to make his opening statement.

Mr. David Turner

We are grateful to the committee for this opportunity to present to the members this afternoon on our recent report on the persecution of Christians worldwide. I am the director of Church in Chains. We are an independent Irish charity that encourages prayer and action in support of persecuted Christians worldwide.

I will start by reminding everyone of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states, "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." We, in Ireland, have been privileged to enjoy total religious freedom for many years and rarely, if ever, do we think about it and, therefore, it will come as a great surprise to most Irish people, even practising Christians, to be told, as we are telling the committee today, that more 200 million Christians live at constant risk of persecution in 60 countries worldwide. This persecution of Christians does not often receive much media coverage and even when it does, the coverage may be framed to fit in with a prevailing narrative that is often put forward by governments. Today, we are here to highlight the other side of the story from the standpoint of the victims of persecution.

I will give the committee one example of what I mean. There is extensive violence in the middle belt of Nigeria currently. This is often referred to as a farmer-herder conflict, exacerbated by the effects of desertification and climate change. This description ignores facts, such as that one group, composed of Muslim Fulani militants, is doing the attacking.

The attacks are carried out on churches, pastors are targeted for assassination and the Muslim battle cry "Allahu Akbar" is often heard during attacks. My colleague, Pastor Lesado, will speak more on this.

While there is a wide body of evidence showing Christians as the most persecuted religious group in the world, Christians are not the only religious believers at risk of persecution. We in Church in Chains believe strongly in religious freedom for all people and while our work focuses predominantly on Christians, we acknowledge that other religious groups, and indeed those who profess atheism, also suffer persecution alongside Christians. Such groups include Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan, the Bahá’i community in Iran, Muslims in many countries including Myanmar, China and India, and Yazidis in Iraq and Syria.

Our recently published fourth edition of the Church in Chains Global Guide lists 60 countries where Christians face persecution because of their faith. It divides the countries into three colour-coded categories. There are countries where there is severe persecution. In those countries many or all Christians face persecution. This can include imprisonment, torture, murder or violent mob attacks. Then there are countries that we classify as significant where some, but not all, Christians face arrest, attack or serious restrictions. That may be dependent on what church they belong to or where in the country they may live. There is another group that we classify as limited countries. In those countries some churches or individual Christians face restrictions on the free exercise of religion and belief or they face discrimination.

About half the countries in the guide have laws or policies in place to protect the majority religion, whether that be Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam, and prevent conversion to Christianity. Such laws and policies are, of course, in direct contravention of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees the right of an individual to change his or her religion or belief. My colleague Mr. H.M. will explain more about how Christian converts from Islam in Iran have, effectively, no religious rights at all. This afternoon, we want to highlight five countries where Christians face persecution. Each of those countries has an ambassador resident in Dublin.

I will begin by summarising the situation in China. For the first time, the persecution of Christians in China is categorised in the Global Guide as severe. This change is due to a marked increase in persecution as President Xi Jinping has gained more power and demanded that religion be sinicised. This is a term that means that all religions be made Chinese in character and brought under submission under the Chinese Communist Party, CCP. The CCP has long repressed religious freedom and all religions have suffered in recent years, particularly the Uighur Muslims, Tibetan Buddhists and Falun Gong practitioners. The current situation is described by our China partner as the worst since the Cultural Revolution under Chairman Mao in the 1960s. For Christians, under the sinicisation campaign, crosses have been torn down from churches; churches have been closed, whether they be government-approved or unregistered; church buildings have been demolished; church leaders have been put in prison; and members of unregistered churches have been harassed and discriminated against in employment, housing, education and business. The degree of persecution varies according to location and the attitude of local officials.

I will summarise the situation of Christians in Pakistan. We highlighted this last month when we met the ambassador of Pakistan. In Pakistan, religious minority groups such as Christians and Ahmadis are considered second-class citizens and often experience discrimination and social hostility. Pakistan’s controversial blasphemy laws, which may be familiar to many in this room, cover offences such as defiling the Quran, for which there is a tariff of life imprisonment, or defaming the prophet Mohammed, for which the penalty is the death penalty. These laws are often misused to settle personal scores. Lower courts tend to side with the Muslim accusers regardless of evidence and many innocent people spend years enduring appalling conditions in prison awaiting trial or appeal. All attempts to reform the blasphemy laws in response to international concerns have failed due to the political influence held by Muslim fundamentalists.

Another serious issue for Christians throughout Pakistan is that every year many young Christian girls are kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam and marry their abductors, who are generally much older Muslims who are often already married with children. This appalling practice has increased in recent years and is also an issue for the Hindu community. It continues because perpetrators know that the likelihood of conviction is low, as police often help the suspects rather than investigate the abductions. In many cases, the women and girls are condemned to a life of sexual abuse by their so-called husbands.

My colleague, Mr. H.M., will now speak about the situation in Iran.

Mr. Davood H.M.

On behalf of the Iranian people, I am thankful to have this opportunity to share a little bit about human rights in Iran. All laws in Iran are based on Sharia law. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has more power than the President of Iran or anyone in the country. Minority religions are severely restricted. They cannot do anything. Their members often face harassment and torture and are threatened by the government all the time, especially Christians from a Muslim background, as I do. There are more than 500,000 such people in Iran. The same applies to the Bahá'i community, which numbers more than 350,000 people in Iran.

The historic Armenian and Assyrian ethnic minority churches are allowed to meet, share the Gospel or talk about their beliefs but unfortunately they are not allowed to speak in the Farsi language, which is the language of the country. They have to speak Armenian or Assyrian. If they do not do that, the church will be closed and the pastor will go to prison, if he is lucky. Christian converts from Islam face persecution for meeting together to read the Bible, worship or share the word, the love and the hope together and with others. They are often arrested in raids on their homes by government agents who regularly try to find them. The call such people “infidels" and tell them they are acting against the Government of Iran. This is what happens to accused people who believe in different or other religions in Iran.

This is good news. Despite so much torture, harassment, imprisonment and many other things, the church in Iran is growing. This is the only hope people have. They continue to meet in their houses, despite the risks they face. The Iranian Government constantly denies that persecution of Christians in Iran is happening. It calls all Iranians "Muslim" and claims that because people are born in the country, they cannot be Christian, Bahá'i or anything other than a Muslim. A minimum human right is that people can choose what they believe, what hope they have and how they want to live. I thank the committee for this opportunity.

Mr. David Turner

I will now hand over to my colleague, Mr. Stanly Sam, who will speak about India.

Mr. Stanly Sam

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak about Christians in India. India is the world’s largest democracy and while the majority of Indians are Hindu, its Muslim population is the third largest in the world.

There are an estimated 68 million Christians in India now.

India's constitution guarantees religious freedom, and Christians enjoy freedom in much of the country, but in rural areas they face increasing persecution from Hindu extremists motivated by the Hindu nationalist ideology called Hindutva. The extremists attack small churches, beat pastors and members, set fire to homes and church buildings and accuse Christians of being involved in forced conversions of Hindus. There has been an upsurge in persecution since the 2014 victory of Narendra Modi's Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, which is in government in India now. The Evangelical Fellowship of India documented around 505 cases of persecution of Christians in 2021.

India's freedom-of-religion laws, commonly known as anti-conversion laws, are implemented in a number of states and have led to increased violence against Christians. The laws are intended to prevent Hindus converting to other religions.

In early May ethnic rioting started in Manipur state, in north-east India, leaving at least 100 people, mainly Christian, dead and more than 300 injured. Over 300 churches have been destroyed, which shows that the violence has a religious component.

I am from India so I get the news daily about the kind of persecution there. Pastors are beaten and imprisoned, churches are set on fire and people are killed because of their faith in Christ. It is very disturbing. I would say it is Government-organised violence against Christians because the Government has a hidden agenda against Christians. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak about Christians in India.

Mr. David Turner

Finally, I ask my colleague, Pastor Lesado Nathan, to share our concerns for Christians in Nigeria.

Pastor Lesado Nathan

I thank the committee for giving us this great opportunity to be here and to speak about the prosecution of Christians in Nigeria. I will highlight just a few points. I will not repeat most of the things Mr. Turner said earlier.

The north of Nigeria, where I come from, is mainly Muslim and the south is mainly Christian, with the country divided by the volatile Middle Belt region. Islamist terrorist group Boko Haram brutally attacks Christian communities in the north, where Sharia law is in place in 12 states. Militant Fulani herdsmen carry out attacks across the Middle Belt using heavy weapons to drive largely Christian farmers off fertile grazing land. Many analysts now describe the situation in these regions as genocide. Islamist militants have killed around 10,000 Christians since 2015 and have injured, raped or kidnapped thousands more. They also attack government institutions and moderate Muslims who do not share their jihadist agenda. Millions of Christians have been internally displaced.

Conditions for Christians greatly deteriorated under former President Muhammadu Buhari, an ethnic Fulani Muslim. His Government failed to protect Christians or to prosecute perpetrators of attacks, and he appointed mostly northern Muslims to high offices and the judiciary. We wait to see if his successor, President Bola Tinubu, will be willing or able to stop the violence. There is currently a huge surge of violence in Plateau State, where I mostly reside with my family. At least 300 Christians have been killed in Fulani attacks since the beginning of May. A couple and three other persons have been gunned down in a community in the Mangu local government area of Plateau State.

Finally, a disturbing video made by an outgoing governor in the northern part of Nigeria has gone viral on social media, with people commenting on it. The governor makes it clear in the video that this is their agenda, with links all over the world and on the Internet, and that it is in their plan to do this in his own Government and internationally.

I am happy to be given this opportunity to share a few thoughts about our nation. We are grateful for the opportunity.

Mr. David Turner

In closing, I will highlight three steps we think the committee could take to begin to address this issue.

The first is to write to the ambassadors of the countries highlighted today - China, India, Iran, Nigeria and Pakistan - to express the committee's concerns about the lack of religious freedom and the attitude of the Governments of those countries towards religious freedom. The committee might felt it right to invite the ambassadors to appear before the committee and to address the concerns we have highlighted.

Second, we would love the committee to write to our Minister for Foreign Affairs to request that the Department make good on its oft-stated commitment to prioritising freedom of religion or belief in our foreign policy by recognising, as we stated earlier, the wide body of evidence showing Christians as the most persecuted religious group in the world and explicitly condemning the persecution of Christians. Our Government has not yet done that. Admittedly - and we are encouraged to see this - our Government does speak up on behalf of religious freedom in general terms, but we would like specific violations of human rights such as have been described today to be explicitly condemned by our Minister for Foreign Affairs. Often Ministers for foreign affairs make major speeches on particular topics to illustrate where Ireland stands on these issues, and we encourage the committee to encourage the current Minister to do that.

Third, we recommend that our Government create a dedicated refugee path with a small annual quota for Christians who have been persecuted for their faith. The genuineness of applicants could be verified by Church in Chains in association with other agencies. The reason we put that recommendation into our written statement is that we know from past experience that sometimes Christians who face persecution are not able to access the UN system in the countries from which they are seeking to flee. We saw that particularly in Iraq, when Islamic State came along in the Nineveh Plains area and Christians, Yazidis and moderate Muslims had to flee for their lives. They ended up in refugee camps run by the UN but, sadly, some of the minorities were discriminated against within those camps and felt so unsafe that they had to leave and be independently supported. It is for people like them we feel a small refugee path could be considered.

We leave that with members and thank the committee once again for the opportunity to bring these issues to its attention.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Turner. I now open the meeting to members for their questions, observations and interest. We will start with Deputy Cowen.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I thank the guests for making themselves available to the committee and for their presentations. I note in Mr. Turner's concluding remarks his asks on the part of the committee and I think they are reasonable. The rights and privileges associated with religious freedom of expression and practice are enshrined in our Constitution, thankfully. It would be our expectation that it would be the same in any other democracy. Those are the values we espouse and the values we should carry proudly. I have no doubt but that we will. I hear exactly what Mr. Turner says and I ask the committee to reflect on those asks.

I hope there is universal support on the committee to address the group's requests and I hope that will be carried out.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Mr. Turner for his presentation. At the very start, he said we enjoy freedom here, but for many years that was not the case. In the past we had the penal laws and all that. Thankfully, that is well behind us. He indicated in his presentation that some countries have improved and are moving in the right direction while others have not. Overall, the map is pretty harrowing in large parts of Asia, Africa and even South America. There is a difference in South America because people are fighting for human rights and so on. Rather than it being an anti-religious thing, it is more people standing up for people who need champions. Mr. Turner might correct me if I am wrong in that.

The report states that Colombia is one of the most dangerous countries, which is amazing in some ways. I join Deputy Cowen in supporting the group's three requests, that we write to the ambassadors, that we write to the Minister and that we consider a refugee pathway for what it describes as a small number of people to come here. It must be particularly harrowing for people to be arrested, held without trial, tortured, raped and executed for their religious beliefs. It strikes me that some religious beliefs have as a value that there can be no other religious belief which is a major conflict and very hard to resolve.

I note that countries like El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua and Venezuela are also on the group's watch list. There are also quite a lot in Africa and in India. I have no issue with inviting ambassadors to appear before the committee and certainly drawing attention to the fact that we had this meeting today. There are major concerns about this. I thank Mr. Turner for his presentation and for his work.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I begin by apologising to our guests; I was detained by a number of votes in the Seanad. I note Mr. Turner's presentation with interest. There are a number of very worthy requests. I will commit to asking our party's lead foreign affairs spokesperson, Deputy Carthy, who is unavailable today, to see how we can progress this as individual members and colleagues across the committee. There is real merit in what Mr. Turner has presented to the committee today. I thank him for giving his time this afternoon. It has been a really worthwhile opportunity for us to hear about the experiences he outlined.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask the witnesses to reply at this stage and then we will have a second round.

Mr. David Turner

I thank the members for their observations and the reception for our three requests. We feel that Ireland can do more. Sometimes in the face of describing such widespread horrors, we throw up our hands and feel we can do nothing. I think we can do things because changes in government policy can filter down. Many of the attacks on Christians happen at a local level. Changes in government policy at a national level filter down to state level and if it becomes clear that activities at a local level are bringing the national government into disrepute, then changes can happen. However, they can only happen if all democratic countries, including Ireland, take a stand.. I am very thankful that individually and it seems collectively there is a welcome for the need to do some more in this area.

Church in Chains remains available to the committee to identify any individual cases or particular issues which could be teased out with the ambassadors of the countries we have mentioned further to what we have put in our presentation, which of necessity is just a brief summary of the issues. Behind the issues we have outlined today are individual Christians who have suffered, whether that be an individual pastor in China who has been put in prison because of their faith, an individual Christian in Pakistan who is under sentence of death under the blasphemy law, individual Christians in India whose homes or church buildings have been burnt down or the many individuals in Nigeria who have had to flee their homes. We would be open and happy to provide examples of all these to the committee for further interactions with the ambassadors of those countries.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Mr. Turner to tell us something more about his organisation. This committee has been constituted since September 2020 after the 2020 general election and the formation of the Government which was not complete until the summer. We have been in situ since then. We have not had a meeting with Church in Chains since then. Have members of that organisation had meetings with previous iterations of this committee? I know that Church in Chains is a wholly Irish charity. Does it have any formal arrangements with international like-minded groups and organisations? Mr. Turner mentioned the Department of Foreign Affairs. We obviously have ongoing regular contact with the Department of Foreign Affairs on a range of issues that are important to our work priority list. In fact, we have daily contact with the Department.

Mr. Turner did not mention to any great extent the group's relationship with other international organisations with which we would have ongoing and regular contact. I am thinking in particular of the European Union. Does Church in Chains have ongoing advocacy arrangements with the European Union? Regarding the United Nations, from time to time submissions are made by Ministers from Ireland and other EU and international governments dealing specifically with the matter of religious persecution. What formal or informal links does Church in Chains have with the United Nations? Is Mr. Turner satisfied with that relationship? Is there more that the United Nations could do? Is there more that we could do to assist, for example through our relationship with UN committees? I am thinking in particular of the human rights body in Geneva.

One international human rights organisation not mentioned so far is the Council of Europe. Senator Joe O'Reilly who is not here today, is a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe as well as being an active member of this committee. It is a question of having the strongest possible voice in the context of the important issues Mr. Turner has raised.

Over the last three years individually as Deputies and Senators we have met and continue to meet certain groups from time to time. The committee has received submissions and would have dealt on a formal basis with the Baha'i, which Mr. turner specifically mentioned. While we did not meet members of the Yazidi group in Iraq, I know it was the subject matter of debate at this committee and also in the wider parliamentary plenary session.

I thank the witnesses for coming here. I would be very keen to hear more about the activities of the group.

I note that a considerable number of countries are specifically referred to in the witnesses' list. Does Church in Chains have spokespeople from each group, or how does it manage that part of its work?

I dare say the organisation is not flush with cash or donations. In terms of its ongoing expenses, does Church in Chains receive funding from the Government? Is that something it might qualify for, or what arrangements do the witnesses see as being important in that regard?

Mr. David Turner

Regarding our history, Church in Chains has existed since the days of the Soviet Union. It was the persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union that led to our formation, based on our concern for those imprisoned in that country. We have been around for quite a number of years. We were at that stage, and we continue to be, a small, independent Irish charity. We consider it very important that we are Irish. We seek to be an Irish voice for persecuted Christians.

The Cathaoirleach asked about our previous interactions with previous iterations of this committee. We had a meeting back in 2015 with the then committee. As I recall, there was a follow-up in 2015 in that the committee invited the ambassadors of the countries mentioned to attend a further meeting. There is precedent for that. In 2018, due to the upsurge in violence against Christians in India and following the issuing of a report we commissioned via our India partner, we contacted the committee, which subsequently met specifically to discuss that issue. Those are the two previous interactions we have had with the committee.

On our relations with the Department, we are members of its human rights committee and have been for more than a decade, since we identified that there was nobody on the committee who was speaking about the persecution of Christians. We are very pleased to be part of that committee. The Cathaoirleach asked whether we feel the Department could do more. Specifically in regard to the UN, we are not a large organisation and do not do advocacy as an organisation at the UN. However, we have been active in submitting to the Department suggested questions it might put to countries under the universal periodic review process. To be frank, we have perhaps been a little disappointed that the Department has not taken more of our questions on board and put them to the relevant countries. We recognise that each country in the universal periodic review process has an opportunity to raise just two issues. We acknowledge that limitation. Nevertheless, we have at times felt the work we have done in putting together questions on what we saw as very important matters in the relevant countries has fallen on deaf ears.

The Cathaoirleach asked about our dealings with the EU. Again, we do not have an individual officer dealing with the EU. We work in informal relationship with other similar organisations. We are not part of an umbrella group as such but we have good relations with other religious liberty organisations, such as Christian Solidarity Worldwide, which does have UN accreditation and does advocacy at the EU level.

In regard to individual countries and where we get information from, we work with partners in each of those countries, supported by my colleagues here today, who have personal experience of what is going on in their country. This is a valuable safeguard, in that sometimes a report comes in on a website and it is very important to be able to verify the contents of that report. Church in Chains always seeks to publish accurate and non-sensationalist reports on its website. We seek to report the facts and encourage prayer and action.

I hope I have dealt with most of the issues the Cathaoirleach raised. If I have left one or two points unaddressed, I ask him to follow up on them.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Turner. His response was very useful. Members of the committee would be keen to follow up on his recommendations and the further issues that arise in the context of his reply. By coincidence, on a proposal from Deputy Stanton recently, we agreed to invite ambassadors from various countries to attend at the committee. We agreed that in principle. While we have not specified any action in that regard, I am sure Deputy Stanton will be anxious to put a further level of construct on his proposal following this meeting.

I am interested in hearing about any relationship Church in Chains might have with other organisations. I have in mind in particular the Irish charitable organisation, Trócaire. It is part of the international Caritas group, which seems to me to be doing work that is not hugely removed from the type of work Church in Chains is undertaking. That is not in any way to detract from the importance of what the witnesses are doing and from the significance of this meeting. Members were very keen that we afford our guests the opportunity of a formal meeting, which is not something we do on an ad hoc basis. Their presentation was very useful and their recommendations to us are ones to which we certainly will give careful and due consideration. We have engagements in the committee every few months directly with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs. I am sure issues raised by the witnesses today will form part of the brief of members at the next meeting the Minister attends, which probably will not be until the autumn.

The witnesses might like to make final comments and leave us with a further message. I notice that Mr. Turner referred specifically to the former Soviet Union and I see reference to eastern Ukraine in some of the documentation that was provided to the committee. Perhaps he will outline his perceptions of any issues that have been brought to his attention in eastern Ukraine, with particular reference to the movement of people, especially children, who have been removed, if not abducted, at very short notice and taken to parts of Russia in which they have no connections or relatives. That is an issue of huge importance and I wonder whether it is one that has crossed Mr. Turner's desk. There is reference in the document under the heading "Europe" to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the consequences it might have for the churches in that area.

Mr. David Turner

I will deal first with the Cathaoirleach's question about Ukraine. The issue of the abduction of children has not, as such, crossed our desk. What has very much crossed our desk is the issue that where Russian forces have a more solid and semi-permanent control of regions in eastern Ukraine, a religious policy is being enforced quite strongly that would give freedom to Russian Orthodox communities but not much to anybody else unless they are willing to toe the line in regard to the occupation.

We have had situations where independent evangelical churches have just been closed down by Russian-backed forces, pastors have been detained for a period and many have fled the area under Russian control. That is the effect in Ukraine.

Also within Europe, we are getting increasing reports of violations of religious freedom in Belarus. In the past couple of weeks, we have seen a Pentecostal church razed to the ground and a retired pastor was arrested in the past month for participating in a public act of witness. Again, it seems that in Belarus people have religious freedom if they belong to the Belarusian Orthodox Church but if they belong to any other church, they are going to find themselves in trouble.

Before I hand over to my colleagues, Pastor Nathan reminded me that I have not answered the question about how our organisation is supported. Our organisation is supported simply by the voluntary contributions of individual Christians in Ireland who see the persecution of Christians worldwide as an important issue and one they want to see addressed. It is through their donations that we are able to function. We function at home by just having a small staff. I am the only full-time member of staff and we have two other part-time members of staff. We report regularly on what is happening around the world and we would organise events to highlight the persecution of Christians, such as an annual conference. Overseas, we seek to channel aid to like-minded organisations that are working in areas such as supporting the families of prisoners who are suffering for their faith. We would support those who have had to go into exile and those who have been internally displaced, such as in Nigeria. We would also support the church in Iran as it seeks, despite the persecution, to spread the good news of Jesus, and the provision of scriptures in such countries as well. That is how we get our money and use our money.

Davood may have final remarks about his country of Iran.

Mr. Davood H.M.

Unfortunately, in my country, you are not allowed to think freely, you are not allowed to choose the name of your child. This is a basic human right. If your child does not have an Islamic background, they do not accept it. In Iran, if people are Christian, they are put in prison and labelled as anti-government. When their sentence of five years or ten years is finished and they are released, they are sent into exile. They are sent to the most remote places in Iran, where maybe 30 families are living. For how long? It is for two or three years in exile. This has happened in recent months. A Christian person in Iran was released and afterwards will have to spend two years in exile in a desert area. This is the norm with human rights in Iran.

We are saying that we are all human but to be human without the humanity to act is nothing. I have been here for 20 years and, by God's grace, I am an Irish citizen. However, for 20 years, I could not see my family or go back to Iran. For 15 years, my family did not have a passport to leave Iran so we could meet in other countries. This is a basic human right. I have a child who is seven years old and has never spoken to the family and does not know the family. It is so painful as a human being not to have human rights in your own country.

The committee will be aware of the recent uprising in Iran. Just because a small part of the hair was out, so many people were killed - not just one or two, but hundreds of people. Now, during the nighttime, people go to other houses because the government knows where they live and could catch them in the night and put them in prison for taking part in what was just a normal demonstration. As a human being, it is good to show solidarity with the Iranian people and with everyone around the world, not just because I am Iranian, and not just to talk about it, but to take action. I am hungry and until I eat, the hunger does not go away. We cannot do nothing. I am a voice of the voiceless people here. This is what I can do. Members can see my name, Davood H.M. Why? I will tell members my full name - I am proud of my name - but in Europe, I am scared to give my name because the government could go back to my family.

This is what I am saying, not just for Iran, and I know many other countries are the same. To the committee, I ask, in the name of human rights, that we stand together. Let us take a step. Let us ensure that when we look back, we can say we did our part. We do not want anything else, just that, as human beings, to be able to say we did what we wanted to do. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. That was very powerful.

Mr. Stanly Sam

My final thoughts would be that here in Ireland, on a Sunday morning, we have the freedom to go to church, but in certain places in India, people are afraid to even go to church because they do not know what is going to happen. The moment people are in a church, perpetrators will come in and start attacking and beating, then beat the pastors and set the church buildings on fire. Christians will probably call the police, who will come and do nothing, basically, because the judiciary and the police are all part of the government. If the police want to take any kind of action, they will probably be moved from that place to another place, and they have that fear of being transferred. The voice of the Christians is basically helpless. They do not know where to turn because the Government does not help and if the matter goes to court, the court will support the perpetrators. If there is an attack, the police will come and arrest the pastor and the believers instead of the perpetrators. That is what generally happens. Most of the cities are fine, but in rural areas it is very bad. People cannot even go out and if they come back from church, they are beaten, attacked or blackmailed.

As Mr. Turner said, we ask the committee to engage with the ambassador of India. If the committee can put forward our concerns and seek action, that would be good.

Pastor Lesado Nathan

I thank the committee once again for the opportunity and for the audience that has been granted to us. This issue is a major concern in the nation of Nigeria. As members are aware, Nigeria is the largest democracy in Africa and the largest black nation in the world. Democracy is being practised in Nigeria. One of the major values in a democracy is to give people freedom of religion. However, this is a country where a democratically elected governor will say on national television that there is an agenda and the agenda is to sideline the religion of Christianity. In that state, many people are being killed all of the time and the governor can say that the plan is to make sure that Christians never rule and that only Muslims will rule the nation. He has just left office and there is a newly elected governor, who is a Muslim, and the deputy governor is a Muslim, and he says that was their plan. The new president is a Muslim and the vice president is a Muslim.

In a democracy, there is a need for balance. We are enjoying Ireland today. We have come into this country and we have seen democracy. We are free to go to church. People are free to practice their religion without any kind of harassment. However, back in Nigeria, that happens every day. In the last two weeks, people have been killed, particularly in the state where most of my family live. Almost every week, killings are taking place. Governors will come and make statements like this, and nobody says anything.

We hope that this committee will look into this and send a strong message so democracy will be practised the way it is practised across the globe, and so people will have the freedom that we are enjoying in the Republic of Ireland. I thank the committee once again for this great opportunity.

An Cathaoirleach

The presence of our witnesses has reminded us of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights in which specific mention is made of the right to practise religion, as well as of the European Union's fundamental rights. It seems to me that the message of our witnesses is that these rights and principles need to be reinforced in our work and in terms of our relationship with the two organisations.

While I do not want to put Senator O'Reilly on the spot, I mentioned his name earlier as being a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. I am sure the Council of Europe would be interested in the submission we have received from Mr. Turner and his friends. Unfortunately, Senator O'Reilly was in the Seanad earlier, but he might like to make a brief comment.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I thank the Chair for the opportunity. The witnesses are welcome. As the Chair said, if there is any way that I can bring forward their issues within the Council of Europe, they should please feel free to get in touch directly on that. Within the committee, as the Chair said, we will also be doing that.

This is in breach of the UN convention and of all human rights and civilised behaviour. I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words because, quite apart from the presence of the witnesses today, some local people in my home area have been in touch with me on this issue and I have been aware of it for a while. In looking at the submission and the Global Guide, we can see the number of countries where there is persecution. If we take the landmass area and the population involved, it is a vast area running right through the Middle East, Central Asia, North Africa and onwards. It is a vast area and a huge international problem. At school, we liked to believe that the persecution of Christians ended with the acceptance of religion by the Roman Empire. Unfortunately and tragically, that is not the case and it continues to this day.

I appreciate the Chair giving me the opportunity to express solidarity. I should say that we had a sequence of votes in the Seanad and as I am the Whip there, I could not reasonably leave, and we also had another group in. I want to express my absolute support and solidarity. I do not think we will find anyone on this committee who thinks otherwise. The Chair will lead us in supporting the organisations represented here today.

Mr. David Turner

Thank you very much.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring matters to a conclusion. We have Deputy Stanton's proposal from a previous meeting regarding the ambassadors. We will activate that. Deputy Stanton has suggested that we give appropriate consideration to that and we note his further recommendations.

I thank the witnesses not only for coming in but also for dealing with the questions, submissions and observations from members. We wish them every good fortune in the important work they do from Ireland.

I ask members to wait as we have some private business to attend to.

The committee went into private session at 4.25 p.m. and adjourned at 4.35 p.m. sine die.