I apologise to Senators Michael Mullins and David Norris for the delay in starting; the select committee meeting ran over time.
Business of Joint Committee
On a point of order, I have no criticism to make of the Chairman or the staff of the committee, but this raises an important point of principle. We were excluded from the meeting of the select committee. Members of the Oireachtas are entitled to sit in on all committees. That is my understanding of the rules. I would like to ask, therefore, the Standing Order under which we were excluded. It may not have been accurate, but we were given the impression that we were not even permitted to sit in the Visitors Gallery, which seems insulting to the Seanad. I know that certain interests would like to abolish the Seanad, but privileging members of the public who, of course, should be privileged over Senators by admitting them but not Senators to the Visitors Gallery seems rather extreme. In other committees and circumstances Senators and Members of the Dáil who are not members of the committee have the right to sit in and speak but not vote. I know this is a matter covered by a certain Standing Order and, perhaps, the Constitution because the purpose of the meeting was to deal with money matters; however, as the Seanad has spoken at least as much sense on money matters as the other House, I am not sure why we should be excluded. It may be a constitutional matter, but I would like a ruling on it from the Chairman. My two colleagues, Senator Michael Mullins and Jim Walsh, were given the same impression. We would all agree that we were treated with courtesy by the staff. However, it does raise an important point about democracy. I would like a ruling on it and information on how we should behave in future.
I remind the Senator that the select committee is confined totally to Members of Dáil Éireann. There was no problem if he wished to sit in the Visitors Gallery. It is not as if he was excluded from the meeting, but he was excluded from participating in it. As he can see, we have a large attendance in the Visitors Gallery, but we would have found a seat for him. We will get a ruling on the matter for him, but there is no question of his having been excluded from the meeting; it was just that he and the other Senators could not participate in it.
I also apologise for having to leave the meeting early as I have another appointment at 4.20 p.m.
We will not prevent the Senator from attending that other appointment.
We have received apologies from Deputies Maureen O'Sullivan and Michael McNamara who are unable to be with us. I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference, even in silent mode, with the recording equipment in committee rooms. I ask people to respect this instruction.
The minutes of the meeting of 22 June have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.