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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 2012

Nuclear Disarmament: Discussion

I remind members, as usual, and those in the Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference with the recording equipment in committee rooms even on silent mode. I ask that the instruction be respected and that phones be switched off completely.

Our next guest is a very important person and we are delighted to have him here today. He is also on a tight schedule and is due in Áras an Uachtaráin at approximately 4 p.m. We will try to allow him make his contribution as quickly as possible. There are two separate items on the agenda, with a presentation and discussion on disarmament issues and, in a separate part of the meeting, a presentation from the development non-governmental organisation umbrella group Dóchas regarding the submission on the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid.

On the issue of nuclear disarmament I am very pleased to welcome the Honourable Mr. Douglas Roche, former Canadian Senator and founding member of Middle Powers Initiative, and Mr. Tony D'Costa, general secretary of Pax Christi Ireland. They are both very welcome. Middle Powers Initiative is a consortium of eight international organisations specialising in nuclear disarmament issues. It has brought together at an intergovernmental level representatives of 30 states to deal with non-proliferation and disarmament issues. Mr. Roche is accompanied today by Mr. D'Costa, general secretary of Pax Christi Ireland. Pax Christi International is a Catholic peace movement, with activities mainly related to security and disarmament, human rights, East-West and north-south relations, peace and education, spirituality, non-violence, faith, dialogue and reconciliation.

The witnesses are here to speak on a very important issue as the threat of nuclear weapons remains a key international concern for all of us. Mr. Roche will address the committee on the work of the Middle Powers Initiative and on a new series of intergovernmental meetings on nuclear disarmament called the framework forum, which will be launched on 1 May this year. In the past day or two there have been reports that North Korea has agreed to the suspension of uranium enrichment and a moratorium on nuclear and long-range missile tests in exchange for food aid. We hope that is true and Mr. Roche might comment on it when making his presentation.

There is also the question of events in Iran, which is on the agenda today for all members, and whether the country is developing a nuclear weapons capability. I know members will be interested to hear the views of the witnesses on the disarmament of existing nuclear weapons and the proliferation of nuclear capacity in certain states. Mr. Roche will also have the honour of visiting President Higgins, and he will discuss a number of issues with him. I will ensure the witness will be finished by 3.40 p.m. as he must travel to Áras an Uachtaráin. President Higgins was formerly a high profile member of this committee, he was one of the founder members so he has a huge interest in this area.

Before inviting Senator Roche to make his presentation, I wish to advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Senator Roche, you are very welcome. I invite you to make your opening remarks.

Mr. Douglas Roche

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. I am pleased and thrilled to be back in the land of my great-grandmother and great-grandfather. I feel that I belong in a special way to this wonderful country.

I pay tribute to Ireland, its Government leaders and officials, for continued leadership in the long struggle to rid the world of nuclear weapons. Ireland was one of the fathers of the non-proliferation treaty, and its strong commitment to nuclear disarmament led to the formation of the New Agenda Coalition. I am grateful for the opportunity to appear before this joint committee.

A recent global speaking tour showed me that the world is moving into a new stage in the long quest to eliminate nuclear weapons. The new global inter-connections of communication, finance, trade and political, cultural and ecological systems are leading to an erosion of the rationale for nuclear deterrence. Chronic deficits and other economic realities that make nuclear weapons unaffordable and a growing awareness of the proliferation risks of the status quo are combining to create a political climate conducive to new action for nuclear weapons abolition. The nuclear weapons abolition mountain is high indeed and not easily scaled. However, a historic shift in attitudes is underway. That shift is quickened by the recognition that the processes of globalisation, which are elevating the standard of living for millions of people, should not be jeopardised by the squandering of billions of dollars on a weapon that has no operational utility.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and US President Barack Obama have tried to lead the way to a nuclear weapons free world. However, many states are tepid in following, seeming fearful of the bold action required to free the world of nuclear weapons. Hoping that small steps will suffice in warding off nuclear disaster, they are resisting the call of history to finally put an end to the weapons that challenge all civilization. To the good, the international community has expressed its deep concern at the "catastrophic humanitarian consequences" of any use of nuclear weapons and reaffirmed that all states must comply with international humanitarian law. Also, the 2010 review conference of the non-proliferation treaty, NPT, put on the world agenda consideration of negotiations on a nuclear weapons convention or framework of reinforcing instruments. For the first time, the concept of a global legal ban on all nuclear weapons has been validated.

However, this advance is held back by the modernisation programmes of the nuclear weapons states, which retain their military doctrine of nuclear deterrence as a means of exerting power. Some reductions will be considered, but not elimination, or at least not yet. The nuclear powers claim that as long as nuclear weapons exist, they must maintain their arsenals. In the convoluted logic that drove the nuclear arms race during the Cold War, safety from nuclear weapons still depends on their deployment. Zero nuclear weapons is considered but a dream. The powerful defenders of nuclear weapons act as if not possessing nuclear weapons would be an unbearable deprivation. This continued obstinacy has created a new crisis for humanity because failure to seize this moment to start comprehensive negotiations will lead to the further spread, and possible use, of nuclear weapons. Iran is a case in point: diplomatic not military action is required to resolve the crisis of Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon capability.

Both the opportunity and the crisis point to an inescapable fact of life in the 21st century: a two-class world in which the powerful aggrandise unto themselves nuclear weapons while proscribing their acquisition by other states is not sustainable. We face the danger of the proliferation of nuclear weapons because the powerful nuclear states have not used their authority to build a world law outlawing all nuclear weapons.

There is hope that a way can be found to move forward together. The 2010 NPT review conference stated: "The conference calls on all nuclear weapons states to undertake concrete disarmament efforts...". They are challenged to do this by 2014 and to give a report for the next review conference of the NPT in 2015. Support for starting work is now widespread. More than three-quarters of the countries of the world have voted for a United Nations resolution calling for the commencement of negotiations leading to the conclusion of a nuclear weapons convention. Support comes from across the geo-political spectrum, including Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Latin America and parts of Europe, and includes support from some of the countries possessing nuclear weapons, including China, India, Pakistan and North Korea. In fact, the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons has noted that nations that support a ban make up 81% of the world's population.

Despite this growing support for a treaty, many major states are still unwilling to enter such negotiations. To overcome this obstacle, a practicable action would be a core group of countries starting an informal process to start building the framework for a nuclear weapons free world. This could include preparatory work on some of the elements of a framework, such as verification, national prohibition, exploring what would be required to ensure compliance with a global ban, advancing alternative security frameworks to nuclear deterrence, and further refining the model nuclear weapons convention to make it into a realistic working draft for actual negotiations. This work would pave the way for eventual formal negotiations.

The crucial point is to start preparatory work now, before the present window of opportunity closes. This is the approach taken by the Middle Powers Initiative, which proposes that like-minded states start preparatory work now, laying the groundwork for formal negotiations or at least for the UN Secretary General to convene a diplomatic conference to start the process. The Middle Powers Initiative, MPI, a consortium of eight international organisations specialising in nuclear disarmament issues, has considerable experience in convening states to work together for nuclear disarmament. Over several years, MPI convened six meetings - in New York, the Hague, Ottawa, Vienna, Dublin in 2008 and Geneva - of the Article VI Forum, attended by the representatives of a total of 30 states. The 2008 meeting in Dublin was supported by the Government of Ireland.

Various steps have been considered through the years. Our position is that these steps are not themselves sufficient to achieve a nuclear weapons free world. They need to be linked into a framework to provide a comprehensive approach to achieving a nuclear weapons free world. Incrementalism is not leading the world to the elimination of nuclear weapons. A framework approach would address the doctrine that underlies the ongoing retention of nuclear weapons.

As the Chairman said, the MPI will hold a meeting on 1 May in Vienna to ask states that are interested in pursuing the subject if they would like to continue meeting in a format similar to the meetings that we held in the Article VI Forum. Substantive work awaits. There is much preparatory work to be done. The agenda is challenging and will require consultations with key constituencies, including parliamentarians, think tanks and civil society experts. MPI is inspired by the support given to nuclear disarmament by the President, Michael D. Higgins, who said in 2010: "The aspiration for a nuclear-weapons-free world contained in the NPT needs to be translated into reality with the emergence of a Nuclear Weapons Convention". Having voted at the UN for such negotiations to start, Ireland, with its long record of involvement in nuclear disarmament issues, is excellently placed to give leadership to the new, active work to lay the groundwork for a global ban on nuclear weapons.

From its pivotal position in Europe, Ireland can help lead the way to a safer world. Ireland can help the new framework forum send a simple, direct message to the world. We must refuse to wait until a nuclear weapons attack obliterates a city before starting negotiations for the elimination of nuclear weapons. We must refuse to wait until a nuclear explosion causes international panic through the killing of millions and the shutdown of food, water, medical and transportation systems. We must refuse to wait until co-operative world politics breaks down completely under the weight of nuclear weapons hegemony. A clearly defined goal must be set and that is what a nuclear weapons convention does. It is urgent that we move beyond eventual nuclear disarmament promised by nuclear powers and give the world a precise plan for the construction of a legal ban on all nuclear weapons.

I thank Mr. Roche for his interesting remarks. As we have 30 minutes, I ask members to keep contributions short and to ask questions.

I will do my best to be brief. I welcome distinguished visitor, Mr. Roche, and he is in good company with Mr. D'Costa, who was instrumental in helping Ireland to get the cluster bomb ban through. Ireland played an important part in this, as it had under Mr. Frank Aiken with the first Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Does Mr. Roche have any comment on the spread of nuclear materials from the former Soviet Union into dangerous hands? This is not just states but also possibly terrorist organisations. The Soviet Union and Pakistan are clear examples of that. If the Chair agrees, I suggest conveying to the President our strong feelings of solidarity and our admiration for the work he did in this committee, particularly on nuclear disarmament.

Mr. Roche might indicate whether he thinks it appropriate for a discussion to be held in both Houses on this matter. The committee might write to the Ceann Comhairle or the leaders in the Houses. I received a letter from Mr. Simon Murtagh on behalf of Mr. Eoghan Murphy, head of delegation to the OSCE. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade is the Chairman of the OSCE. This was raised with the Ceann Comhairle, the Chairman of the Lower House, who recommended that national parliaments devote special time to discussing OSCE issues. This was also mentioned to the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, who seemed sympathetic. The idea is that before the end of April, the two Houses should discuss the preparatory cycle for the next review of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, which will happen in 2015.

I am sure the Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan will have something to say about that as chairman of the AWEPA in the Parliament.

It is an honour to receive the presentation of Mr. Roche in the knowledge of the high esteem in which he is held internationally for the work he has done and what he seeks to achieve. The final part of the presentation summarises the crucial importance of his work. Must we wait for an attack on a city or the obliteration of millions? It is a nightmare scenario but also a real one. We are at the mercy of the international community and the institution of the UN.

I have an interest in the Middle East. I refer to the achievement of making the Middle East zone free of weapons of mass destruction. The fact that the EU and much of the international community has taken sanctions against Iran in order to enforce full co-operation with the International Atomic Energy Agency on its nuclear sites has caused a lot of anger. Iran is a signatory to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and should fully co-operate. It is my view that Iran is not trying to develop nuclear weapons. It will be much easier to prevent it from doing so if we engage with Iran and work with it to allow it to have nuclear technology although not the capacity to develop weapons.

The difficulty is that Israel is not a signatory to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and there is a firm view that it has hundreds of nuclear weapons. There is no demand for access to its sites. It is not a signatory to the treaty, nor is it co-operating in any way. There is no accountability for Israel. Not only do we not have sanctions, we have a useful trade agreement with Israel. We reward Israel for its belligerent approach to the international community. I could go on about settlements.

There is a real difficulty with double standards in the region. If Mr. Roche's plan was implemented in the region, it would stabilise the situation. There must be consistency in the approach of the international community so that everyone can see it is a level playing pitch and that every country must give full access to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

I am interested in the opinion of Mr. Roche and I thank him for the work he does, which is tremendous. My colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, brought in some of Mr. Roche's colleagues from the international movement and this area is critically important. We cannot resolve issues until we get to the point where every country bans nuclear weapons and takes them out of the equation. The solution in Iran is that everyone plays by the same rules so that we can have a fair approach in dealing with Iran.

I concur with what has been said, welcome Mr. Roche and congratulate him on his contribution. Ireland has a long history of support for non-proliferation going back to Mr. Frank Aiken, who pioneered our involvement in the League of Nations and in the UN. It is important for a number of reasons, not least the security of the citizens of this world. Also, resources are being channelled into armaments when they could be deployed to better causes in the Third World, in supporting people in the prevention of hunger and other provisions under Irish Aid. They should rank as a greater priority.

Mr. Roche mentions that steps in themselves were not enough and that we need to link to a framework. The nuclear weapons convention could be a mechanism for creating that environment. Is the organisation of that under the auspices of the UN Secretary General? I fully concur with that point and it should be pursued. The OSCE has taken that on board and last week we had a meeting of the Parliamentarians for Global Action, PGA. The topic ranks high in that organisation's priorities. Many organisations will be supportive of this measure. I agree with the point on Iran. It charts the way forward. We met the Israeli Minister on the issues in the Middle East and the Palestinian cause. The issue of Israel taking pre-emptive action against Iran, which would be disastrous for diplomacy and dialogue, was raised. We in this country are a microcosm of some of these disputes and the peace process in Northern Ireland would not have occurred without dialogue. Another example is the atrocities in Mumbai, India, which is a nuclear power as is Pakistan, from where the instigators of those atrocities had come. India was very restrained in the manner in which it responded. However, if it had adopted a different attitude, we could have had a total conflagration.

These are serious issues and we should be supportive.

I thank Mr. Roche for his excellent presentation and compliment him on his long commitment to the concept over a long number of years and his undoubted success and progress in that area.

Ireland has a long commitment to the concept also. It is easier for a non-nuclear country to do that. The question we must ask, however, is how we should convince countries with a nuclear capacity to sign up to the concept. That is more difficult. I do not have the same assurance that Deputy Mac Lochlainn has that Iran is not en route to the development of nuclear weapons. There is always the tendency for countries with a dual purpose to use nuclear energy for its very useful provision of energy and at the same time develop its alternative potential as nuclear warheads. Two issues arise. First, how do we encourage those countries that have that capacity to think again and sign up to this concept and under what conditions are they prepared to sign up? There is a long history to this. Second, how do we stop those countries that may have a burning fervour to achieve nuclear capacity in order to defend their situation or to use their newly-acquired potential as a means of intimidating their neighbours? Senator Norris referred to some of the former eastern bloc countries which had developed technology to a significant extent. To what extent has that technology got into the hands of those who might not show the same restraint as those who have had the capacity for years? I know that people claim that it has already gone there, that microtechnology has enabled a capacity to be developed by groups, not necessarily countries, which have other than peaceful intentions.

It is fascinating to hear these contributions because of the cross-fertilisation of ideas. I thank the speaker for his presentation as it is very timely to have a debate on nuclear energy and weapons. I grew up in Ireland during the "ban the bomb" campaigns, and as a country adjacent to Great Britain, a major nuclear power, we have almost forgotten that it has the Polaris bomb. This is on our doorstep, yet we spend more time worrying about its nuclear energy capacity and the potential of a nuclear power plant exploding.

I support the tremendous work of Mr. Roche and I am sure he will have no problem in getting the support of this committee and support at governmental level for continuing his work. We, the members of this committee, need to think seriously about ways to encourage countries with the ability to downgrade to do so. There is downgrading and decommissioning of old nuclear weapons in the former Soviet Union. There was a fear that some of these weapons could fall into the hands of terrorists and that possibility exists today. The nine bullet points listed in Mr. Roche's presentation make very important and interesting point, the last of which is the ongoing debate on Iran. Does a country such as Israel that is small geographically want thousands of nuclear weapons, given the destructive power of a single weapon? The nuclear weapon capacity of Israel may be a myth. What is the international method of monitoring countries with a legitimate requirement to create nuclear energy?

We spoke to the Jordanian ambassador recently and Jordan is about to embark on a nuclear energy programme. Is there a very clear cut off point for observers or international bodies to know that when one is taking the nuclear energy route that they cut off at a certain stage so that they do not move into the military field? One of the nine bullet points which concerns the regulation of nuclear fuel production and supply and support for meeting energy needs through safe, renewable energy sources makes me ask the question. How do we recognise the rights of nations to generate energy and is there a clear way of defining nuclear power for energy use as against the next stage, which is for military use?

I welcome Mr. Roche who again has made a very interesting presentation. He spoke at a meeting organised by Pax Christi, which I chaired with Mayra Gomez. The point that is coming across from both meetings is that the question of nuclear disarmament has gone off the agenda. How do we put this back on the agenda? I do not mean at the top level with countries talking about it, but that people are aware of nuclear power being a real threat. I liked Mr. Roche's use of the expression convoluted logic because what has always struck me is how the threat of nuclear weapons can be conducive to peace; and how those with nuclear weapons are telling those without nuclear weapons but who are trying to get them, that they should not have them. There is much of the so called "do as I say but not as I do."

I have an interest in Africa and the poverty and hunger of its people. Does Mr. Roche have information on what is happening with nuclear weapons in some of the African countries?

I welcome Deputy Ann Phelan, who is also a member of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, as is Senator Jim Walsh.

I welcome Mr. Roche, the former Canadian Senator, who made an extremely good presentation. I am delighted to see that nuclear disarmament is now back on the agenda. It had slipped down the agenda. Some countries seem to think that once they get a nuclear capacity, it is their coming of age on the global sphere, and that it is banner they can wear now they are on the stage and can play the nuclear game, for want of a better word. I am an OSCE delegate. Is there some way we can raise the profile of nuclear disarmament? There are 56 members of that organisation and it strikes me as the perfect place to advance this agenda.

I apologise to Mr. Roche as I missed the start of his presentation. I join my colleagues in welcoming him and congratulating him on the wonderful work he has been doing to date. I noticed one interesting statistic in his presentation, namely, that the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons has noted that nations that support a ban make up 81% of the world's population. While it may be concluded that almost achieved our goal, the 81% figure clearly does not include some significant players. What can parliamentarians in the Oireachtas do, at a practical level, to support the work and efforts being made to bring about the elimination of nuclear weapons?

We have had many questions and I hope Mr. Roche will be able to answer most of them.

Mr. Douglas Roche

Is it the Chairman's goal to conclude by 3.40 p.m.?

I am conscious of that timeframe given that we cannot have the President waiting for Mr. Roche.

Mr. Douglas Roche

I will keep my eye on the clock.

I thank the Chairman and members for an interesting and challenging set of questions. I will begin with Senator Norris's contribution. It will be a joy for me to convey the greetings of this committee to President Higgins. Senator Norris asked about procedures in the Irish Parliament. I would like to leave it to members to decide in their own way how to proceed. I will link that with Senator Mullins's question on what parliamentarians can do. As a long-standing parliamentarian, I am with Members in their search for avenues to exert due influence on the legislative processes of their country. Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non-Proliferation and Disarmament, PNND, which was sponsored by the middle powers initiative a number of years ago, has approximately 800 members in roughly 60 countries, including Ireland. The global co-ordinator of the PNND, Mr. Alyn Ware, travels the world regularly. His representative, to whom a reference was made, Ms Mayra Gomez, visited the Oireachtas recently.

Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non-Proliferation and Disarmament has a terrific website providing a network of information in several languages. It offers a source of information that parliamentarians can apply, including debates, motions, resolutions and committee hearings - the very thing members are engaged in at this moment - and does anything, within the parliamentary precincts and then into the apparatus of governments, to elevate and raise the visibility of this issue. This is a highly constructive thing to do.

As I stated, Ireland has a distinguished record. It is, if not the father, then certainly one of the fathers of the non-proliferation treaty. For this reason, it has a vested interest in the success of the treaty and in ensuring it is not allowed to drift. I will answer Senator Mullins's question, therefore, by encouraging constructive, vigorous debate in the appropriate channels to raise this issue. I will return to how one raises this issue in a moment.

Senator Norris and one or two other speakers referred to the leakage or theft of nuclear materials. President Obama, when he convened a 47 state summit on the subject of nuclear dangers in Washington in 2009, held up an apple and stated that just an apple sized container of plutonium in the hands of a terrorist would be enough to destroy a city and kill many thousands, if not millions, of people in an instant. Such is the danger of the scenario we are facing. Resolution 1540 of the United Nations Security Council and allied instruments seek to protect the sources of nuclear materials, prevent their illicit transfer and so forth. That being said, there have been 18 known attempts of theft of nuclear materials. Time does not permit me to catalogue each case but they are well charted.

The position in the former Soviet Union, now Russia, is serious. Under the nuclear threat initiative, sometimes known as the Nunn-Lugar approach, the United States is spending a considerable amount of money to protect the disarmament processes in the former Soviet Union and prevent the leakage of materials and siphoning off of nuclear technologists into other areas that would be less reputable than would be desired. These measures are not sufficient. When one considers the dangers of Pakistan where nuclear materials have literally been transported through cities on buses, one is not filled with great confidence that we can escape a nuclear catastrophe of some kind. The bomber apprehended on the evening of Saturday, 1 May 2010 on Times Square in New York city stated to the authorities that if he had access to nuclear materials he would have used them. Having pointed out the dangers in this area, my answer to Senator Norris's question is that we must tighten up all the regulations and so on and get at the heart of the problem, namely, how will we ensure the atom is used peacefully for humanity in the 21st century and not for weapons.

This brings me to Iran, an issue to which several speakers referred. Iran takes a position that it has a right to nuclear energy and that is true. Article 4 of the non-proliferation treaty refers to an inalienable right to access nuclear technology and Iran claims this right. It states that, inasmuch as the major states are not fulfilling their end of the non-proliferation treaty, under which in Article 6 good faith negotiations towards the elimination of nuclear weapons are required, the non-proliferation treaty is ineffective. The treaty is a balance between those who had nuclear weapons and those who did not have them. Under the treaty, the former would negotiate the elimination of nuclear weapons and in return the latter would not acquire them and would provide nuclear technology and materials for the peaceful use of the atom.

Iran poses a challenge to the world. The International Atomic Energy Agency has done its best and has not yet come to a determination that Iran is making a nuclear weapon. There has been a great deal of hype in the media concerning Iran. However, when it comes to how to resolve the current dilemma, I call again today for diplomatic action, rather than military action. Furthermore, the elections in Iran in 2013 will produce a new Administration. There are signs, politically, that the new regime will be more moderate than the regime that obtains at present. Thus, there is every incentive for western countries to keep applying diplomatic pressures and other measures in the same way as was done with North Korea. We recently had a success with North Korea when it acknowledged it will not pursue nuclear weapons in return for certain economic benefits. Diplomacy is a trade-off game. We saw the outcome of the failure to use diplomacy in 2003 in the Iraq war when military means were used instead. I will only say that the countries that have some considerable experience in diplomacy in nuclear disarmament - I have in mind Ireland, although it is not the only such country - have a role to play in raising their voices.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn was one of the first speakers to refer to Iran. The approach I would use on Iran would be to ensure the success of the conference that has been called on the Middle East nuclear weapons free zone. Finland has been named as the facilitator and the venue for the conference to be held in 2012. I do not know whether it will slide into 2013.

All of the questions in the Middle East cannot be solved in one conference but it is for the good of the world, and certainly the good of the region, if a dually prescribed conference, mandated by the non-proliferation treaty, NPT, review conference, to address the question of Iran had the participation of Israel. To my knowledge, Israel has not definitively stated that it will not attend, as staying away would be difficult if there was sufficient pressure from non-Arab states. This would help to get us to 2013, at which point we could measure the situation. As the Deputy stated, we need to level the playing field.

Senator Walsh raised the question of the resources used in the nefarious business of building nuclear arms. Some $100 billion per year is being spent on the maintenance of nuclear weapons. According to the Global Zero movement, $1 trillion will be spent in this decade on nuclear weapons that cannot be used for anything else. The US alone is spending more than $50 billion per year on nuclear weapons. This is ten times greater than the annual global budget of the UN system. The misuse of the world's resources is something to consider. I am not laying the blame on the US alone, but it is the principal spender among nuclear states. The fact that the world is tolerating the expenditure of moneys of this magnitude at a time when education, health and all manner of human needs go neglected is a scandal. We need to address this matter.

The question of India and its acquisition of nuclear power has been raised. With the compliance of the US, India did an end run around the NPT, which would otherwise have prohibited the transfer of nuclear technology to a non-NPT country. That said, India is trying to find a way to give some leadership. Recently, a committee was appointed by its Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh. Headed by Mr. Mani Shankar Aiyar, the distinguished Member of Parliament who rejuvenated the Rajiv Gandhi action plan of 1988, it called for global negotiations. Given that India voted at the UN for the start of global negotiations, we should pay some attention to what it is trying to do.

I discussed nuclear leakage. As Deputy Durkan stated, it is sometimes easier to convince non-nuclear weapon states, but how to convince the nuclear weapon states is at the heart of the matter. Some countries have considerable credibility in this regard because they gave up their nuclear weapons. I am referring to South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine, all of which had nuclear weapons at one stage and, thus, are qualified to speak of the benefits to their societies of not having nuclear weapons. It will always be difficult to speak to the major powers, the five permanent members of the Security Council, namely, the US, Russia, Britain, France and China, the original nuclear weapons club. Some hold that they are maintaining their hegemony by possessing nuclear weapons. I am not suggesting that convincing them will be easy.

None the less, we must build a world law. We built the International Criminal Court, ICC, and other instruments of human rights are gradually requiring universality despite having been resisted by the major states at one stage or another. The movement of getting like-minded states to work together to build the groundwork for negotiations raises the temperature and what I call the normalisation process in the world, that is, making it normal for states to consider such a world law against nuclear weapons and to rely to some extent on gathering public opinion within those states. I cannot do much better than this except to point out that China, as a nuclear weapon state, has already voted at the UN for the commencement of negotiations, as have India and Pakistan. The US will come around.

This brings us to the question of internal domestic political machinations within the US, with which everyone present is familiar. I do not want the committee to believe that I have some sort of magic solution, in that if something is done, everyone will suddenly get in line. It is a process. We must establish momentum and show that, having established globalisation, the 21st century is capable of having a law to protect that globalisation. This is the challenge.

I was asked about the nuclear fuel cycle. How can we be sure that states that claim they want nuclear fuel for peaceful purposes will always stay peaceful? Mohamed ElBaradei, the former director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, stated that the multilateralisation of the nuclear fuel cycle was the way to go. Namely, there would be a pool of nuclear materials that developing countries could tap into at market prices. This idea is on the table and work is being done on it. It would be one of a number of ways to ensure that Iran could have nuclear power without being accused or suspected of leaking it for the purpose of building nuclear weapons.

To Senator Mullins, I say that we are almost there at 81%, yet it is still off the agenda. This is a paradox. We have come a long way in history. The intellectual validity of nuclear weapons is decreasing and we are trying to provide momentum. The International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons is one such instrument. We are trying to get like-minded states to put the issue back on the agenda. As parliamentarians, we need to raise our voices and actions in an appropriate way to ensure that governments that understand their responsibility to humanity will act accordingly.

I thank Mr. Roche for attending this meeting and for updating the committee on his work and on the priorities and challenges ahead. I admire him for his strength and dedication. Undoubtedly, his consortium has an important role to play in highlighting the issue and ensuring that the world is a safer place. We support his work. As he stated, Ireland has always been a strong supporter of complete nuclear disarmament. It is important that Mr. Roche continues to advocate for a nuclear-free world and undertakes the work needed towards a nuclear weapons convention. I wish him a pleasant stay in Ireland and I hope he has a pleasant visit with the President. I am delighted to hear that Mr. Roche will pass on our compliments to him.

Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.45 p.m.
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