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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 2012

White Paper on Irish Aid: Discussion with Dóchas

I welcome Mr. Jim Clarken, chief executive officer of Oxfam Ireland and chairperson of Dóchas, Ms Niamh Garvey, policy and advocacy manager at Trócaire, and Mr. Hans Zomer, director of Dóchas.

They are before the committee to discuss the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid, which was announced in June 2011. The review is examining the progress made by Irish Aid since the publication of the White Paper in 2006 and the changing national and international context in which Irish Aid's programmes operate. It will also help to shape policy direction in coming years. The review is being led by the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Joe Costello, and Irish Aid is undertaking a broad consultation of key stakeholders, including the general public, the NGO sector, partner countries, the private sector and the Oireachtas. The joint committee will have a formal consultative meeting with the Minister of State on 18 April.

The representatives from Dóchas will address the committee on its submission to Irish Aid regarding the review. As members will be aware, Dóchas is the umbrella body for development NGOs in Ireland. It provides a forum for co-operation within the development NGO sector and helps it to speak with a single voice on development issues. I welcome that Dóchas has co-ordinated the views of a broad spectrum of development agencies in drafting its submission. It is important that NGOs pull together to influence policy and deliver aid more effectively.

Before inviting the witnesses to make their presentation, I advise them that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the utterances made at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence related to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Jim Clarken

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to highlight the key messages Dóchas would like to send in its role as umbrella body for the sector. We have come up with these messages collectively as a sector and they reflect our unified voice in terms of how we feel the review might go. Individual agencies will also be making submissions on their own behalf in respect of specific aspects of the review.

It is timely that the review is taking place now given how much the world has changed since the original White Paper was written. The White Paper offered a roadmap for the design and implementation of development assistance on behalf of Ireland. It has been an effective document that offered good leadership but it is appropriate that we review it now. One of the reasons for the strength of our aid programme - this was led by the White Paper and the joint committee, among others - is its avoidance of the pitfalls that other donor nations have experienced as a result of pet political projects or national interests. We are very proud that our aid has always been untied as has been acknowledged internationally. The Irish Aid programme is known to be of exceptional quality and has been reviewed internationally and independently verified. That is something of which we should be aware and proud.

However, since 2006 the world has changed dramatically in many ways - some good and some not so good. The global financial crisis has had an impact on everyone. Here, we have rising unemployment, emigration and many other issues. In developing countries, there have been aid reductions coupled with reduced remittances from people working overseas - the kinds of people on whom Irish people depended once upon a time. That money has reduced dramatically for people living in poor countries where their own diaspora were sending money home. Reduced trade opportunities because of the global downturn have prevented countries from moving on as we would have liked. There is no surprise that when there is considerable strain here in Ireland, there is greater scrutiny of the overseas aid programme. It is absolutely appropriate that the feasibility and desirability of every area of Government expenditure, including overseas aid, should undergo public debate. The citizens of Ireland who have supported the aid programme and supported individual NGOs very generously and over a long period of time, irrespective of what is happening in their own lives and environment, deserve great transparency to see where the money is going and what the outcomes and impact are. Our sector welcomes this and we need to build upon it.

We also need to be better at communicating the many successes and challenges faced in order to engage with the public better. While we know there is great support, sometimes we feel it is thinner than it needs to be. The public has an interest and there is a duty on all of us to ensure we engage at a much deeper and more meaningful level. We also need to bring a broader understanding to the public of what we mean by development assistance rather than just the response to an emergency, for example.

One of the areas mentioned in the original White Paper, which we feel needs considerable work and development, is the sense of an all-government approach to development. The programme is strong and has a huge impact. However, we also need to consider many other areas of government that have the potential to either offer a multiplier effect on the aid investment or inadvertently impact negatively on its effectiveness. This is the concept of policy coherence, where all relevant parts of government - the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Agriculture, Food and Marine, Foreign Affairs and Trade, etc. - need to consider the implications of our policies on international development and on our investment. For example, Irish NGOs are witnessing at first hand how climate change is hitting poor farmers in pastoralist communities in developing countries hardest. Of particular concern is the threat climate change poses to food security of poor farmers and pastoralists, the majority of whom rely on rain-fed agriculture to feed themselves and their families. Our forthcoming legislation on climate change can have substantial positive impact not just for Ireland, but also for poor countries.

Other issues such as unequal trade agreements between rich and poor countries, the increased acquisition of land by overseas investors to grow crops of bio-fuels and speculation on world markets on foodstuffs all serve to increase food insecurity and condemn people to a life of poverty. These all go beyond the aid budget but have significant implication. Unless we tackle these and other structural causes of poverty and underdevelopment, we will not succeed in bringing lasting improvement to the lives of the very poor people across the world. We hope that following the review we will see a greater sense of this crucial all-Government approach. It has been indicated in the original White Paper and needs to be bolstered and needs investment. We need interdepartmental structures to ensure this happens.

There have also been some very positive changes, including the emergence of very strong and active civil society organisations and movements across, what we know as, the global South - in developing countries. These organisations, many of which are supported by Irish Aid and through Dóchas members - are increasingly holding their own governments to account for the delivery of aid, the provision of essential services, good governance and the fulfilment of their rights. Supporting these civil society organisations is crucial not just to monitor the delivery of aid to those who need it most, but also to improve governance and accountability more broadly in the programme countries in which we work. Building and strengthening civil society to hold governments to account will ultimately have a major long-term impact on the lives of poor people.

We welcome the debate. In recent months the 43 members of Dóchas have worked together to prepare this submission for the committee. We would be very interested in members' questions and comments on it. The key message for today is that this is a real opportunity to strengthen what is already a world-class aid programme and an opportunity to renew the contract with the people on why we should invest in overseas aid and in international co-operation, both from our own interest and the international interest we have.

I thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to set out the case. I also thank them individually for their commitment and leadership in the area. Many of them have visited programme countries to see the impact of the aid programme and have become excellent ambassadors for that. I encourage them to continue with that and to continue to lean on us as members of the sector to follow up and support their work in that regard. Our collective effort makes a real and meaningful difference to the lives of people living in poverty. It is incumbent on us to continue to improve, innovate and ensure we stay the course working with our partners, realising that the ending of global poverty is not just an issue for developing countries, but one which has a great outcome for all of us. I again thank the members for giving us this opportunity. My colleagues will elaborate on some of the particular issues, following which, I am sure, we will have an interesting and lively question and answer session.

Ms Niamh Garvey

I also thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to present the Dóchas submission today and I will elaborate on some of the points contained therein. In addition to the Dóchas submission and those made by each of our individual agencies, our agencies and partners overseas in Irish Aid programme countries are also engaging in the public consultation that Irish Aid is conducting, which we really welcome. Yesterday, a number of our agencies met the Minister of State to give an input into this consultation.

One of the key messages in the Dóchas submission is that aid alone will not end poverty. Aid is necessary and plays a vital role as a catalyst for development processes. Aid can save lives, protect and develop livelihoods and create the environment to allow people to regain control over their lives. However, in itself aid alone cannot bring about the type of transformation required to end poverty. The Government has recognised this and the 2006 White Paper had a strong emphasis on policy coherence for development. Mr. Clarken's interventions covered some of the issues regarding PCD, which we wish to reiterate.

More recently, there was another expression of the Government's determination to broaden and deepen our engagement with our partner countries in Africa, expressed through the Africa strategy launched late last year. While this is welcome, we sound a note of caution. Just as aid alone cannot end poverty, nor can trade or economic growth alone promote development. While economic growth can and does provide opportunities for social change - many of our agencies' overseas programmes support and develop local private-sector initiatives - some forms of economic growth can increase inequality and perpetuate poverty.

Ireland has a role to play internationally as a credible advocate for pro-poor development and pro-poor economic development as part of that. This could involve strengthening, for example, the role of civil society organisations overseas, with their oversight of the development in their countries, in particular with an eye to equity issues and human rights approaches. We believe Ireland could work to promote a more pro-poor approach to economic development through abiding by and promoting international mechanisms such as the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative and the UN Ruggie guiding principles on business and human rights. Irish Aid can complete and publish a comprehensive aid for trade strategy that has a pro-poor focus at its heart. Ireland can continue to strengthen its policy coherence for development in line with the points Mr. Clarken made earlier.

I refer to keeping our aid promise. Ireland's role as an advocate for the poor and a voice for the voiceless is based on our credibility and our reputation as a trustworthy partner. As Mr. Clarken emphasised, Ireland has a high international reputation in this regard. We want to protect this vital characteristic and protect the efficacy of our foreign policy as a whole. We must protect this credibility. The Dóchas submission argues that Ireland must keep its promises and adhere to its commitments to meet the UN target of spending 0.7% of GNP on aid by 2015, a promisee we have made many times and at the highest possible levels. This promise is important not only for the millions of people who benefit from Ireland's aid programme but for Ireland's international reputation.

Mr. Hans Zomer

I thank the committee for this opportunity to speak. The review of the White Paper is an opportunity for us to rethink our aid programme. We must do so without losing the elements which made the programme strong in the first place. One of the great strengths of the current programme is its focus on poverty and hunger. This is set out in the 2006 White Paper. Ireland has a strong reputation. We have advocated for leadership in this development work because Ireland's aid programme is not tied to trade or economic interests. We argue that at a minimum the commitment to the principle of untied aid must be reiterated and strengthened. This is one of the key points we wish to make today.

We believe the programme should remain focused on the areas where Ireland can make the greatest possible difference. As NGOs we are proud of the work we do but it is only part of the Irish Aid programme. We know that we have the programmes and monitoring systems in place to deliver value for money. We will not go into the details today because there will be an opportunity on Tuesday to showcase some of the programmes the development NGOs have. We would be delighted if members of the committee could attend the event on Tuesday evening.

For our purposes today, we reiterate that the key concern in our submission for the White Paper review is for Ireland to ensure that its programme is designed is such as way that it has the greatest possible impact and such that it can continue to withstand any great scrutiny in terms of quality and outcomes. The work of the committee is vital in this regard. For the committee to do its job, it must be given the information it requires not only relating to inputs but with regard to the actual results that development efforts achieve. It is important that the results are not limited to the impact Ireland has through its aid programme, as my two colleagues have pointed out. It is also important that the many ways in which Ireland's public policy impacts on poor countries be taken into account. We maintain that the review should set clear indicators for Ireland's overall development impact in terms of the millennium development goals and international human rights treaties. These results should be communicated publicly and should form the basis of a discussion in the Oireachtas and among the general public.

We believe the recommendations contained in our submission will serve to strengthen our overseas aid programme further. We have every reason to be proud of our aid programme but we must never be complacent. We can and we must always do better. The White Paper review is a wonderful opportunity to agree to what "better" means and to agree the steps to arrive at a better programme. I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute and I would be pleased to answer the committee's questions.

I thank Mr. Zomer for his comprehensive submission. I read most of it this morning and I am pleased that you have had the opportunity to present it to our members this evening. I remind the witnesses, members and those in the Public Gallery that we will discuss Irish Aid policy next Wednesday. An important element of the discussion will be the criteria for funding the NGO sector and I encourage as many as possible to come to the Public Gallery for that meeting.

I thank the group for coming before us today. The White Paper is important in many respects. It will be no surprise to the delegation to learn that my questions are about money and value for money. We know that we have the right structures and best practice in terms of aid development. Previously, we asked the Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development about the breakdown of the amount of money given. It would be most helpful if the various organisations could give us information relating to how much each of them receives from Irish Aid or the taxpayer and how much each organisation spends on its administration costs. It would be an interesting exercise from our point of view to learn how much each organisation gets and whether they spend 60% on administration costs but only 40% on other expenditure. The value for money aspect relates to how much of the expenditure is on administration costs here and how much is on overseas costs. How much of the organisations' money comes from fund-raising and what is the cost of it?

Recently, I had a conversation with a professor in UCD and I am keen to get the views of the delegation about some of the issues raised. As our aid budget grew we simply could not spend it or target it ourselves. Therefore, we went to organisations in other countries such as the Clinton Foundation and proposed giving them money. Irish Aid is a partner country of the foundation and it does excellent work. The delegation can correct me if I am wrong but I understand tens of millions of euro of taxpayers' money is being spent by organisations not based in Ireland. Is that correct? The committee is keen to establish the views of the delegation on this matter. We would be glad to hear them off the record if they prefer it. The research suggests that anything between €100 million and €150 million of our overseas aid budget is going to organisations outside the State. Therefore, we do not have a great deal of control of that portion of taxpayers' money. There might be issues within Irish Aid in terms of how it asks for its programmes to be reviewed. Does it do so correctly? Is this done in such a way that the person or organisation it hires must give a clean bill of health because they are being paid for by the organisation? This relates to the external review process.

I will not set about praising the delegation for the importance of their work; they know it. We know about the structures and the targeting of partner countries. However, I have some concerns before we get to and discuss the Irish Aid White Paper. Is the money received by all the organisations outside Ireland well spent? Are we simply writing them a cheque but not following through to see if we are getting value for money? This relates to Irish Aid and the review process. This is not a "gotcha" moment. We are concerned because some organisations have spent a fortune on administration here and on the other side. How much gets to those at ground level? We are all interested to see the grid in resect of these organisations. The taxpayer demands that if we are to meet the target of 0.7% by 2015, organisations should not be spending 70% of their funding on administration.

Those questions are probably more important for next week's meeting.

I would prefer if you would concentrate on the submission Dóchas has made on the White Paper rather than those matters. I would be happy to take those questions next week but it is up to the Members.

It is up to them but I would like the information and when they get a chance perhaps they could e-mail it to members of the committee.

No problem.

This is the area where Ireland's reputation is much valued. I do not know where to start because there is quite an amount of information. I will suggest a few ideas to get the witnesses' comments on them. Recently, we had two parliamentarians from Ghana visiting here as part of the AWEPA event. Anybody who came to that workshop would agree that it was very valuable and fruitful. There was a great engagement between the parliamentarians here, including the Chairman, and the two gentlemen from Ghana - one government and one opposition parliamentarian. Some interesting things emerged from that on Irish aid in general and its effectiveness but there was a lack of joined-up dots. Both Ghanaian representatives said that aid would come into their area at times, yet they knew nothing about it. They would like to have been involved in that process. Part of it has to do with engaging with parliamentarians as opposed to engaging with governments.

Tax justice is a major area of concern. We see multinational companies coming into the global south and they are there to make profits. A simplistic example concerns coffee beans that are grown in certain African countries. They are exported from Africa and come back as imported jars of coffee to be sold there. It strikes me that more could be done on that aspect of trade.

Food has now become a gambling commodity, which is very serious, but we know that progress is being made on the Millennium development goals. At a conference in Johannesburg I heard that the infant mortality rate is going down. There are state-of-the-art medical facilities, yet poorer people are unable to access them. There is a lack of joined-up thinking at times.

Human rights must be central to aid. We all have concerns that while aid is going in, governments have too much control over it. The system has been open to abuse and corruption.

I know the Chinese are our new best friends but there are major questions about their role in Africa. They have obtained ridiculous deals from certain African countries and certain families in Africa may have been lining their pockets. The Chinese are bringing in their own workers to African countries, thus taking the work from local people. We could be saying more about such matters because we have a good reputation in the field of overseas aid.

I am aware that Deputy Mac Lochlainn is also under a time constraint.

I want to apologise as I will have to leave in a few minutes to fulfil a media responsibility. I will be at the presentation next Tuesday, however. We recently had two Ghanian MPs, one government and one opposition, here as part of the AWEPA group. We have a particular focus on parliamentary oversight, which I know is being developed at Busan.

With regard to government assistance, we would like to see accountability being developed both in the donor states and the partner ones. That is a key issue particularly as it is unlikely the Millennium goal - of overseas aid being 0.7% of GNP by 2015 - will be reached in the current economic crisis. Ireland was moving inexorably towards that target but the crisis intervened. While it is wrong and unacceptable, it appears to be the reality.

More than ever, it is critical to demonstrate that the money we are giving in partnership with the global south is being used efficiently and is getting to those who need it. I am proud of the work done by Irish NGOs. In my year as my party's spokesperson on foreign affairs, I have engaged with all the NGOs represented here today. I have been very impressed by the quality of their analysis and their work. I have had the honour of witnessing the work being done in Ethiopia, for example. All members of this committee are big fans of our NGOs and the Irish Aid programme, which we want to defend and enhance.

How can we get to the point where our Irish Aid and NGOs are co-ordinating their activities, thus ensuring that we are maximising our combined resources in a strategic fashion? In some countries there may be difficulties with the government's oversight and what it priorities might be, as well as what is in the best interests of the people. It is not a simple issue but I would like to get the witnesses' feedback on that. I will not be here to hear their replies, but I will read the transcript and can develop the discussion on Tuesday.

I thank our guests for addressing the joint committee. In general, I congratulate all those involved in developing the aid programme, as well as deploying aid and targeting various communities in need. For many years, a number of us in this House tried to ensure that the integrity of the aid programme was maintained by raising questions about its efficacy, including the extent to which it achieved its targets. Some former members of this committee are Cabinet members now, and I must admit having some responsibility myself in that regard. Whenever substantial amounts of aid money are involved it is important to ensure that those involved in delivering it will be able to account for it. We tried the same thing concerning the economic and banking systems but it is did not work as well with them.

The World Trade Organisation has been referred to but I am somewhat suspicious of what can happen in this context. Various pretences can be put forward by powerful international vested interests under the guise of helping the poor in the developing world, yet nothing could be further from their intentions in the final analysis. I am worried about the reliance on climate change as a means of fronting future aid programmes. I can think of many other things that might mean the same thing but the very reference to climate change is too global and too easily accessed by multinational corporations who want to use it to gain access to critical market areas.

In the past I have drawn attention to the EU's sugar regime and the benefits it was supposed to achieve for developing countries and European consumers, yet it was wrong on both counts. In fact, the result was an increase in prices for consumers and no change at all for poor developing countries which were allegedly to benefit from the EU sugar regime. That was because when it comes to WTO negotiations the tendency is - even on the part of the EU and all big groups, bodies and agencies - that they will negotiate in a way that most favours their own interests. That is a serious matter. It means that the smaller and poorer components, either within developing countries or the EU, will be squeezed in the interests of achieving maximum benefit for those vested interests.

I would like to see irrigation systems being developed as they have a big impact on food production. In Latin America, I had an opportunity to see at first hand the extent of the development of irrigation systems. The resulting food production from that investment is unbelievable. Likewise, in the Jordan Valley, one can see how simple irrigation systems are of great benefit and achieve important results. I ask that those aspects of what we are discussing should be borne in mind.

I will summarise my main points. First, there is the delivery of aid and targeting it at those for whom it is intended. As previous speakers have said, it must be ensured that war lords do not take it. It should not be used as an indirect subsidy. Water is a serious issue and becoming more so. It is more influential in terms of economic development than oil. There is a need to rely to a greater extent on irrigation systems with a view to making people self-sufficient. I refer to the need for receiving countries to endeavour, at least, to enforce some modicum of recognition for human rights. In so far as possible, the agencies should try to ensure that both our resources and theirs, all hard-won, are not frittered away by people with other interests and agendas.

I thank the delegation for a very interesting presentation. The most important message of the submission is that the review should increase the accountability and transparency of Irish Aid and of Ireland's policies affecting development and it should provide a clearer focus and positive outcomes for people and communities living in poverty. This has been emphasised in the submission. I refer to the fourth paragraph of the submission which states that the Ireland Aid programme is of very high overall quality and a source of considerable pride for the people of Ireland. The submission further states that, internationally, it provides a model of good practice in the many ways it serves as Ireland's calling card to the world. It seems we already have a Rolls Royce model and I am not quite sure what model we are trying to attain by way of the better programme which the delegation envisages.

It may not be appropriate to comment but perhaps I will. This is the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade and I underline that trade plays a very important and an ever-increasing role in the functions of this committee. I attended the launch of the Africa strategy. The Chairman will be familiar with the delegation of ambassadors from Africa, which numbers about seven countries and the spokesperson is the Kenyan ambassador. African counties from Morocco to South Africa were represented and they are enthusiastic about the development of trade. They would argue, as would I, that trade can be a liberating factor for people living in poverty. It strikes me that the delegation is a little concerned that our developing trade interests may possibly impede or remove the focus of Irish Aid on areas of poverty. It is fascinating to hear the observations of fellow members, for instance, the politicians in Ghana who do not know at whom the Irish aid is being targeted. Deputy O'Sullivan spoke about the Chinese presence in Africa and the criticism of the governments in Africa for allowing the Chinese to exploit the land in the manner they do. Is it a fundamental policy of the delegation to advocate that local indigenous or international non-governmental agencies, NGOs, be resourced by Ireland in these countries to enable them empower the people to respond themselves to governments which allow this exploitation? I refer also to the Ghanaian politicians who do not know what is happening around them. A growing number of countries are limiting the outside sourcing of NGOs. How can this apparent contradiction be adequately addressed?

I have been involved in the advocation of fair trade for many years. I distributed leaflets and knocked on doors. Fair Trade is a classic example of a project that has become a success. Multinational companies have now practically taken over Fair Trade produce.

I am interested in an Irish Government of an independent nation providing aid in order to empower local indigenous NGOs to expose their governments. How can this be balanced against the reaction from other countries?

I apologise that I was not present for the presentation as I have been confined to my office for the past couple of hours. It is very interesting that these two presentations happened in the same afternoon because there is a starkness between the two messages.

It is correct to say that the Irish people are enormously proud of the work of Irish Aid and of the individual NGOs. Deputy Eric Byrne talked about the level of excellence achieved by the NGOs in the service provided on behalf of the Irish people to the developing world. However, high standards can fall away if there is not a continuing striving for excellence. I commend the delegation on its work.

It would be a great shame if the emphasis being placed on trade were to in any way distract from the whole exercise. Putting an emphasis on trade supports this whole move towards sustainable development with which we all agree. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan has repeatedly and rightly highlighted the issue of human rights. We cannot allow a situation to develop in which the focus on trade diminishes our human and moral responsibilities in the area of human rights. We thank the delegation for keeping this issue to the forefront.

Transparency and accountability are vital at a time when we are borrowing the money which we are giving away in order to honour our humanitarian responsibilities. It is not surprising that the Irish people will want to be absolutely satisfied that the euros they contribute reach an appropriate destination. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, initiated this review and is to be commended on undertaking it. I advocate the maximum possible participation by NGOs, civic society and the body politic because only good can come out of this exercise if it is properly handled.

There are many good stories to be told when it comes to aid and Ireland's work in that area. However, it seems that the disasters are the more memorable and create knee-jerk responses. Many of those knee-jerk reactions and promises and commitments are never followed by action and the money does not come through. However, Ireland has a record of honouring our commitments.

It would be preferable to showcase the success of the myriad of projects which are funded by Irish Aid around the world. Irish Aid and the work of the NGOs has made a phenomenal difference to the lives of people.

I commend the Chairman on holding the debate on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons on the same day as this debate on Irish Aid. I was flabbergasted by the figures presented by Senator Roche. We have friendly relations with our American friends and the Taoiseach, hopefully, will be at Capitol Hill for St. Patrick's Day. I suggest one of the issues he might raise with President Obama is the question of $50 billion per year being spent on arms and $100 billion expended internationally. What a contribution a fraction of that money could make towards saving lives and delivering quality of life to millions of people across the world. Ireland can be a leader in this field. I hope we can do as well as we have been doing while continuing to strive for excellence.

This committee can be a leader in its own field. As delegates know, we will have a consultation with the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, on 18 April. It is our intention to give our submission to the White Paper on the review of Irish Aid. We believe we can make a difference. Our members have vast experience in this field, some from their time on the previous committee on foreign affairs. All have great interest in this area. We hope to leave our mark on it, too.

There were quite a number of questions-----

I forgot one brief supplementary question. The contributors to the document are substantial, including the Irish Red Cross concerning which there has been controversy about the management of its funds. There have also been discussions recently about GOAL. Will the delegates explain why GOAL was not a contributor to the submission?

I leave it to the delegates to answer the questions, whether in order of merit or according to their choice. Perhaps the question on GOAL might be left to that organisation to answer rather than have other non-governmental agencies answer for it.

Mr. Jim Clarken

I will get the ball rolling, in no particular order. The members have put a lot of thought into this matter, which is most welcome. It is clear how engaged in a very deep way people in this room are which is very positive from our point of view, given the effort we have put in. We now realise members are thinking of this in a meaningful way. I am sure their submission will be very insightful for the process. I thank members for that.

There were so many questions and comments I am left trying to come up with a way of summarising, as best I can. My colleagues will add to this and, I hope, pick up the bits I do not. In my initial comments I spoke about the need for policy coherence and we talked about that. This issue has come up in regard to trade and the emphasis on other governmental drives, for example, climate change. We need to have a whole-governmental approach and we need to set up a structure that will represent that so that we can ensure that any policy across a myriad of Departments will help in some way rather than hinder. That was flagged in the original White Paper but it has not yet gone so far. We hope it will be developed.

I refer to aid effectiveness, in very broad terms. I had the pleasure, along with the Chairman, Mr. Zomer and others, to represent Ireland at the Busan aid effectiveness meeting. That agenda is not about donors but about developing country governments and their responsibilities. It is also about civil society which, thankfully, has a space there. It is these groups working together, challenging each other and holding each other to account to ensure there is delivery and that the delivery does what it is meant to do. It was great to hear about the experiences of parliamentarians and it was welcome that both Government and Opposition were involved, that those kinds of developments are happening and that members get to hear both sides.

What we, as a sector, constantly speak to - it was mentioned heavily in the paper and in the opening comments - is the strengthening of civil society and of local organisations. This can be very substantial and in-depth and can show great policy understanding and knowledge regarding holding governments to account. Civil society or NGOs on their own will not solve global poverty. We never said we would; nor should we be arrogant enough to think we could. It will be solved in a number of ways. Trade is a very important part of that as are responsible governments being held to account by their own people on delivering essential services, education and health care and, in this part of the world, opening up opportunities. We know how unfair and difficult current trade arrangements are for developing countries. We have lobbied very hard and successfully in regard to the economic partnership agreements between Europe and, for example, the east Africa region. Those agreements have now been suspended because they were considered to be very unfair. However, the organisations that really came in behind that campaign were civil society groups in east Africa - hundreds of them. Eventually, they put pressure on their own parliamentarians, in Tanzania and the east Africa region, to say, hold on a minute, this is not acceptable, this is a bad deal.

The constant investment in civil society is essential, to be able to have that voice, that capacity to analyse, to develop policy and put pressure on. The Irish Aid programme has, thankfully, been very supportive of that, both through us and through the partners with which we work. A lot of us work almost exclusively through partners and local organisations which know better than we do what is needed. That must continue and develop.

Do we have a Rolls Royce version? I would not say that. We know we have a very good aid programme but the only way it will continue to be good is if we continue to put pressure on ourselves, innovate and hold ourselves to account. The oversight of this group and others is essential towards ensuring this happens. We welcome that and it should continue to be strengthened.

The issue of transparency and accountability is something in which we firmly believe. We hold governments to account; likewise the sector must be held to account. Mr. Zomer might speak better on behalf of the whole group - I represent one organisation and today I also represent Dóchas. I am conscious of that so perhaps it might be better for Mr. Zomer to comment on it. We have certainly put systems in place, codes of corporate governance, transparency codes and so on, to ensure that everybody can analyse and see clearly what we are doing, the impact it is having, the expenditure, as mentioned, and so on. We must continue to be better at that as a sector.

We also need to engage better with the public. I believe it was Deputy Ó Fearghail who mentioned the necessity to get the public beyond thinking about emergencies. That is where the media are and the truth is we must be there. We have to save lives, that is our duty and part of the imperative, but it is only one part of it. The long-term development and policy work we do is what makes the real change. It will not necessarily prevent an emergency from happening but will ensure that a community and a country are much better equipped to deal with it when it does.

I will not dominate the discussion - it would be fair to share with my colleagues.

Mr. Hans Zomer

I thank members for all their questions. I will start, if I may, with Deputy Byrne's questions. To a large extent, Mr. Clarken and Deputy Ó Fearghaíl have answered his question about where we put the bar. We are very proud of the high quality of the aid programme but, as I said, we can never be complacent. We must put the bar higher for ourselves. One of the areas where we definitely see room for improvement is parliamentary oversight, both at home and in the programme countries where we work. The other issue the Deputy raised concerned the membership of Dóchas and why GOAL was not represented. Nobody is obliged to be a member of our organisation. It is a voluntary association. The organisations we represent have made a conscious decision in that they see their future in active collaboration with each another, both here and overseas. They created Dóchas; I did not. Our members have said they need something through which they can work together. It is a coalition of the willing, if you wish. As the Chairman suggested, if organisations are not members of Dóchas that is their choice. I cannot speak on their behalf.

Senator Daly asked some really important questions. Perhaps today is not the time to answer them but I have some short answers that may satisfy him in the meantime. There are a couple of things to point out in terms of the contribution from Irish Aid to the various organisations. One is that we are currently negotiating a new round of funding for Irish Aid NGOs. That round has not been finished, but, to give a sense of the order, the total package is about €65 million and it will be a four-year agreement. In the past nine or 12 months, what we have done in regard to Irish Aid is to ensure we have designed a mechanism that incentivises quality and has a demonstrable impact. When the members have the discussion next week with Irish Aid I am sure its representatives can give the committee more details about that. It is important to stress that the €65 million Irish Aid provides in support of the work of those organisations equates only to about a half of the income of those organisations. They are widely supported by people in Ireland and one of the key aspects to which we are attaching great importance is our financial independence from Government.

It is important to point out that €65 million is a great deal of money but the total funding for Irish NGOs through Irish Aid is approximately 20% of the total aid programme. It tends to be a high profile part of the aid programme but when we are discussing Irish Aid there is so much more to the story than just the NGO part. It is the part we are proud of and the part we believe delivers tangible and lasting results for poor people.

Deputy Byrne rightly asked about the effectiveness of the other parts of the aid programme. It is not up to me as a representative of NGOs to answer that question. That is a question for the Minister, but we are confident that the 20% of the aid programme we represent is incredibly good. Through mechanisms such as Dóchas we have our own codes and standards.

A number of issues arise regarding the question asked by Senator Daly about administration costs. We also need support from Government to encourage that level of quality. A key ingredient that is missing is charity regulation. In 2009 the Government passed a Bill, following about 25 years of lobbying for charity regulation by organisations like ours. However, we have yet to see it being acted upon. I ask the members to ask the Minister for Justice and Equality, who appears to be the responsible Minister, the reason the Bill has not been delivered on because some of the questions the Senator asked should be a matter of public record.

If I may interrupt briefly, I asked the question because it will arise later in regard to the Irish contribution to the regulation of the European Parliament and Council establishing a financial instrument for development and co-operation. According to the figures we have we will give €272,547,990 to that organisation over six years. I would rather give that money to Irish Aid because I know what it does but I do not know what the other organisation does. There is another similar provision for a budget from Ireland of €212,732,910 - the €10 is important - to a similar mechanism. We are handing over money to the European Union whereas at least we can call in the representatives of Irish Aid and ask where the €65 million it gets is going. I would rather give this money to Irish Aid. That is the reason I asked the question.

They give it to the NGOs as well.

We can call in these NGOs but not the others.

We should deal with the issue before us.

We can call in the EU representatives sometimes too.

It is the EU which is calling us in these days.

One speaker please.

Mr. Hans Zomer

In the absence of clarity the members of Dóchas have said our part of the sector must be self-regulated and set itself standards that are higher than anybody else.

Yes, because we have not introduced them.

Mr. Hans Zomer

Yes, but this year, for instance, we will develop guidelines on financial reporting. The Senator's question on administration costs is difficult to answer but the key point is that there are many better indicators for quality of NGO work than the percentage they spend on administration costs. He will be familiar with the saying about lies and statistics. The key question should be how do we know whether the work of any organisation is meaningful and effective? One of the worst parts is the administration costs but an organisation might have high administration costs because it is investing in research and piloting and testing whether the model will work. A 0% overhead model means they are signing cheques but do not have the money to travel on a plane to see where it goes. Rather than being a dirty phrase, so to speak, administration costs is an important phrase because it represents the investment in quality, research and monitoring that-----

I take Mr. Zomer's point.

Mr. Hans Zomer

On Deputy O'Sullivan's point, she is right. Poverty is not just about the unavailability of clinics. The issue is that poverty equals exclusion. When a famine occurs it does not mean there is no food, it is that certain people do not have access to it. In many ways the issue we are discussing is about access to services. Availability is not the key issue. It is about equity, and I hope that answers Deputy Byrne's question also. We must build a programme that examines matters of equity and equality as much as in terms of service delivery.

Ms Niamh Garvey

In response to a number of questions from Deputies O'Sullivan, Mac Lochlainn, Durkan and Ó Fearghaíl, we are glad to hear the perspective on human rights being essential to aid but the issues of corruption, governance and human rights arose in a number of points made.

The emphasis on governance and human rights is an important part of the original Irish Aid White Paper and one we are keen to see strengthened further. Mixed modalities in terms of aid delivery are an important tool in having flexibility for Irish Aid in terms of engaging in countries with different levels of governance. I emphasise, however, that the responsibility for tackling corruption lies with the people and governments in developing countries. In that regard an approach we would like to see strengthened by Irish Aid is promoting government capacity to deal with corruption and strengthening legal frameworks within countries to facilitate access of information and a strong and vibrant civil society and media to empower citizens to promote transparency and accountability.

To take an example from Trócaire's work and one which may appear in the event on 6 March, Trócaire's partners in Malawi have worked with local groups to help people understand the budgeting process and get access to information. We have an example of local government putting a copy of the budget on a notice board to ensure it is in the public domain and therefore hold the local government to account in terms of the spending of budget allocated to them.

In terms of a second set of issues raised by Deputies O'Sullivan, Durkan and Mac Lochlainn on the role of parliamentarians, a development that was very welcome out of Busan was the emphasis on the role of partner countries and parliamentarians within developing countries having a responsibility for development in aid effectiveness. An essential part of that - these points were made by the Deputies - is the role of civil society organisations in developing countries not only in terms of a service delivery role but as agents promoting freedom, protecting human rights, holding governments to account and being active participants in the development process.

What we are seeing in many countries around the world is the growing threat to civil society organisations whether in Ethiopia, more recently in Malawi or in Honduras where the space for organisations, particularly with that advocacy and governance role, is becoming more difficult. We would like to see Irish Aid champion the protection and promotion of civil society organisations in developing countries for the vital role it plays in terms of strong democracies, good governance and, ultimately, strong and fair development.

Deputy Durkan raised the issue of climate change and the World Trade Organisation. I agree with the Deputy that in these international fora and negotiations, developing countries often are the losers as vested interests manage to get their agendas agreed over the interests of developing countries. That brings us back to the importance of Ireland taking a strong policy coherence for development role and, as Mr. Clarken referred to, the partnership agreements being suspended. These are examples of where taking a strong policy on coherence approach to these internal issues is supportive of international development.

The Deputy spoke about the importance of irrigation in regard to climate change. That links into what many of our agencies and Irish Aid are moving towards in terms the need to support adaption within developing countries, whether through irrigation or adapting models of agriculture, examining disaster preparedness and response, and all those sets of issues that are an additional burden upon developing countries as a result of the changes being brought about by climate change. Ireland has made good strides in terms of new and additional financing in respect of climate change, which is very welcome and of which we should be rightly proud.

Deputies Eric Byrne and Ó Fearghaíl raised the issue of trade and the Africa strategy paper. It is not a question of either-or but one of balance. There is a role for trade and economic growth in tackling poverty and none of our agencies shies away from that. Much of our work, especially in the area of livelihoods, is about supporting women's economic activities and fair trade co-operatives. We do a good deal of private sector investment work at that pro-poor small scale level.

In terms of the Busan partnership bringing a stronger emphasis on economic growth and trade and bringing in wider partners such as China, to which Deputy O'Sullivan referred, all of these measures need to be underpinned by the principles of aid effectiveness and human rights and to have a poverty focus. When we talk about the need for caution around the Africa strategy paper it is to ensure that it does not displace the important focus on a poverty-focus, rights-based approach to development, of which Ireland is rightly proud and should continue to have at the heart of its White Paper as we move forward.

I thank the witnesses for attending and updating members on their submission. I found it very useful as did the committee members, as was evident from their line of questioning. It will be useful to us in preparing our submission on the White Paper and for our meeting with Minister of State, Deputy Costello, on 18 April next.

We are very supportive of the work that Dóchas does on our behalf. It is important that the witnesses' organisation would continue to deliver impartial and neutral humanitarian assistance to advocate the principles of humanitarian action. I thank the witnesses again. We look forward to working closely with them again and to having them in before the committee from time to time over the coming years.

I propose we go into private session for the remainder of the meeting.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.55 p.m. and adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 March 2012.
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