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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE debate -
Wednesday, 18 Apr 2012

Review of White Paper on Irish Aid: Discussion

I particularly welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello. I think it is his first visit to the committee since he was appointed Minister of State at the end of last year. We look forward to working closely with him in his term as Minister of State in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, in particular in the aid area. The Minister of State is accompanied by Dr. Vincent O'Neill and Mr. Donal Cronin from the policy, planning and effectiveness section of Irish Aid, and by Mr. Patrick Fitzpatrick, a member of the Irish Aid advisory group. They are all very welcome.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their presentation, I advise them that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments or evidence in relation to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given, and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The joint committee identified the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid as an issue of priority in its 2012 work programme. Since its establishment last June, the committee has examined Ireland's development policy in a number of ways. That has included formal hearings in regard to Vote 29 on international co-operation and a broad policy discussion with the Minister of State's predecessor, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. The committee has had meetings with the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA, and Commissioner Georgieva as well as hearings on specific issues, including the food crisis in the Horn of Africa and the development challenges in Haiti.

The committee has also had a number of meetings with NGOs and ambassadors on aid-related topics. A delegation from the committee undertook a field visit to Ethiopia in November 2011 which provided an opportunity to access the effectiveness of projects and programmes on the ground supported by Irish Aid. As Chairman of the committee, I participated in the fourth high level forum on aid effectiveness held in Busan in the Republic of Korea in November. Last month Dóchas appeared before the committee to discuss its submission on the review of the White Paper. In addition, the committee regularly receives policy documents and correspondence on a broad range of developments and issues from domestic and international organisations and individuals for its consideration.

The various series of meetings, briefings and visits has helped to inform the committee's views on Ireland's development aid policy and I know that members will appreciate the opportunity to contribute today to the review of the White Paper. The committee has received submissions relating to the review of the White Paper from Dóchas, Trócaire and the Debt and Development Coalition. Issues have been raised over the past ten months both with and by committee members. Members will be aware of the issues which I am about to list, including finding the right balance between bilateral and aid delivered through EU and UN channels.

We support closer co-ordination between NGOs to avoid duplication and to promote effectiveness and stronger governance within the NGO sector. We need to ensure cohesion across Government in terms of development policy, to include areas such as taxation, climate change and investment. We also wish to ensure there is cohesion between the Africa strategy and the Irish aid policy and reaffirm Ireland's policy of untied aid. It is extremely important that we do not link aid and trade in that way.

We are also reaffirming Ireland's commitment to what is termed "least developed countries" and our key priority as the fight against hunger and under-nutrition. We are also reaffirming Ireland's commitment to reach the UN target of 0.7% of GDP. We support private sector growth in developing countries as an accelerator for development; as well as good governance and the protection of human rights as integral components of sound development policy. We must communicate more clearly the message to the public that effective development works. Members have discussed these issues in the past 12 months but they may wish to raise other issues also.

The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Joe Costello is accompanied by Dr. Vincent O'Neill and Mr. Donal Cronin. The Irish Aid Expert Advisory Group is present. The chairman of that group is Ms Nora Owen, a former Minister for Justice - who chaired the former joint committee on co-operation with developing countries and was also vice chairman of this committee. She is accompanied by Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick, a member of the Irish Aid Expert Aid Advisory Group, who is also a director of the centre of global development and the head of the global college of science, engineering and food science at UCC .

Everybody is very welcome. Following the presentation, members will ask questions. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn sends his apologies, as the father of his colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty died. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, and thank him for appearing before the joint committee this afternoon.

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting me to attend this meeting of the joint committee. It is a great honour for me to appear before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, as I have been a member and participated in the proceedings in a number of guises. In recent times, when I was Chairman of the European affairs committee, Deputy Breen and I worked together on a number of issues and held joint meetings together. I know all the members and have shared various platforms with them. I am very impressed by the degree of interest they have expressed on development aid overseas, and that it is one of the priority issues in its work programme for 2012.

As the Chairman states, the members of the joint committee have had many opportunities to engage with the aid programme over recent months, including those members who visited Ethiopia last November. The Chairman visited Busan last year. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has prioritised human rights, development issues and trade and is very interested in hearing the range of views from the widest input possible. It is very important that we hear the views of a body of this nature which has a deep interest in these issues. There have also been opportunities before today to participate in the discussions on the Review of the White Paper on Irish Aid, through previous appearances by my predecessor, the then Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and through recent discussions with others, such as Dochas.

I was happy to see that the Chairman participated in the High Level Forum on Aid Effectiveness in South Korea late last year and that while there he took part in a seminal meeting on the review of the White Paper with some of our African partners, and with the Irish NGOs. This committee's role is an important one, and I look forward to receiving its feedback on the review and engaging with members in the period ahead as we shape our aid programme and build on its strong foundations. I see a great advantage in having ongoing consultation with the committee on the work of putting together a new report on the future of Irish aid.

At the outset I will outline the process through which we have gone about the review and second, I wish to raise some issues that we have put forward and that have emerged through the consultations undertaken to date. This will hopefully set the scene for our discussion this afternoon. The 2006 White Paper on Irish Aid, the first of its kind, set out very clearly the basis for Ireland's aid programme - reducing poverty, helping children survive their first years and their attendance at school, enabling people to have enough food to eat and to take control of their own lives. The White Paper is a far-reaching and comprehensive policy which has served as a very strong basis for the development of a quality aid programme. The world is changing, and with it the context for international development is also changing. As we are all too aware, the context has changed in Ireland over recent years as well. Therefore, a review of the aid programme was one of the commitments contained in the programme for Government in 2011. This provides an opportunity for us to take stock of the achievements and challenges to date, to consider the constantly changing context and to chart out the future priorities of our aid programme.

We have carried out this review in an open and transparent a manner, giving people from all walks of life the opportunity to have their say. This is important, because the people of Ireland own the aid programme. The Irish Aid expert advisory group was requested to provide independent oversight for the review, ensuring that a meaningful consultation is undertaken and that the eventual review report is representative of this. I am glad that Nora Owen, the expert advisory group chairperson, and Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick, a member of the group, are present. I would like to express my appreciation for their important role to date.

The consultation process for the review involved many meetings and discussions. We held four national level meetings, in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and in Sligo on Monday evening last. These meetings, together with the Human Rights Forum in February, which was dedicated to the review of the White Paper, saw more than 500 people attend and participate fully. In addition, we conducted a number of focus group discussions with key stakeholders such as NGOs, the private sector and, importantly, diaspora communities living here in Ireland. We undertook consultations with other Departments, including through the interdepartmental committee on development which I chair. We have invited individuals and organisations to make written submissions for the review, and published a consultation paper to inform the discussions and to provide guidance on how people can get involved. We also have had an active presence online - through our website, and by using social media to reach out to as wide an audience as possible. We have consulted widely with our partners in Africa. Each embassy in our partner countries has been undertaking a local consultation process, and we held a very fruitful regional consultation meeting in Malawi in March. I went to London last month to meet ambassadors who did not have full embassy accreditation to Ireland to discuss the issues.

The consultations with the Committee of Foreign Affairs and Trade have been important. Tomorrow I will appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on EU Affairs to hear its views and input. Later this year, I will publish a review report setting out the future priorities for Irish Aid, as it continues to deliver real and lasting results for the world's poor.

Since the publication of the White Paper, Ireland's aid programme has become more focused and effective in tackling the poverty and vulnerability in some of the poorest countries in the world. There were around 100 key decisions outlined in the White Paper, and the consultation paper shows that in the majority of cases we have followed through effectively on them. Today, Irish Aid is recognised as a world leader in delivering a high quality aid programme which delivers clear results for the world's poorest people, empowers partner governments to lead on their own development and encourages donors and civil society organisations to work together better and reduce duplication. Ireland has taken a leadership role in the fight against global hunger, improved ways of preventing and responding to humanitarian emergencies and developed strong oversight mechanisms along with systems of accountability. We have fulfilled commitments by placing a stronger focus on Africa, particularly sub-Saharan Africa, by setting up the rapid response register to respond quickly to humanitarian emergencies, as well as by implementing the recommendations of the hunger task force which sets out how we can tackle hunger most effectively. We have also established the Irish Aid volunteering and information centre based in O'Connell Street, Dublin.

In recent visits to Ethiopia and Malawi, I saw for myself the impact of our aid programme. In Ethiopia, agricultural production of grain more than doubled between 2004 and 2009. In Malawi, the number of households with insufficient food has reduced from one in four in 2006 to one in ten today. There were some areas in the White Paper where progress was less than expected such as in the establishment of a tenth programme country or an Irish development bank. The White Paper was developed at a time of rising levels of economic growth and it set out a broad and ambitious agenda. The reductions in public expenditure arising from the difficult economic situation resulted in a decline of 30% in Ireland's aid budget between 2008 and 2011. It is imperative that we, through this review, focus on priority areas where we can make a real difference and achieve full value for money for every cent that we spend with clear accountability to the public and to our partners. This has come out strongly in the consultations undertaken to date.

It is also imperative we adapt effectively to the changing context globally and in our partner countries. To do so, we need to understand the changing nature of poverty with emerging challenges such as rising food and energy prices, climate change and the global economic crisis. At the same time, we see emerging opportunities such as high levels of economic growth in Africa, more opportunities for trade and a stronger role for emerging economies in world affairs. Aid can and does make a difference. As countries, however, drive their own development, it is important that overseas aid complements the other tools for change such as domestic taxation, political dialogue, foreign investment and trade.

The Africa strategy of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade recognises this new context and advances a new approach to Africa upon which the White Paper review will help build. This acknowledges the importance of complementing aid with efforts to strengthen domestic, regional and international relationships. In the review, we have identified several issues that we will need to consider such as hunger, climate change and alleviating poverty in particularly fragile states, as well as the need to respond to basic needs and the centrality of good governance and human rights including gender equality.

The review comes at a useful point. We have had the high level forum on aid effectiveness in Busan late last year while this June the UN conference on sustainable development, or Rio+20, will be held. The millennium development goals, MDGs, will be reviewed next year in preparation for the development of a platform for global poverty reduction post the 2015-MDG deadline. The review of the Whiter Paper and the Irish Presidency of the EU in the first half of 2013 presents us with an opportunity to draw from these processes and, critically, to bring the various strands together breaking down any artificial barriers that exist between sustainable development, hunger, climate change, human rights, gender and other priority issues.

In the review so far, several other themes have emerged strongly including the need for strong policy coherence for development, to maintain the focus on results and accountability and to use all the tools available to the Government to bring about sustainable development. One example of this is the recent launch of the Africa agrifood development fund, a joint effort between my Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. This fund is designed to support the development of new partnerships between the agrifood sectors in Ireland and Africa. It will be piloted over the next two years in Tanzania and Kenya.

Other issues emerging include the need for a particular focus on post-conflict situations, fragile states and the issue of inequality within countries even when economic growth is strong. We have also been exploring the potential to make greater use of Irish institutional experience, as well as establishing a clear framework for volunteer exchange. We need also to consider with whom and how we are working. By providing substantial support to our partner countries, non-governmental organisations, civil society organisations and multilateral organisations such as the United Nations and the EU, we feel we are able to react to different contexts in varied and appropriate ways.

I am interested in hearing members' thoughts on how we can ensure better public engagement on development issues and ownership of our aid effort. This is important in underpinning public support for the aid programme over the coming years and contributing to a growing awareness of global justice issues. Within that, I want to hear the committee's views on the role of the Oireachtas in our aid programme and its important function within that.

I thank the committee for its work and engagement on the review. I look forward to this discussion and its feedback on the issues I have outlined. We are still in the business of waiting for submissions so any submission from the committee or individual members would be more than welcome.

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive statement. Obviously there has been widespread consultation across the country. I am also glad to see he is using social networking and media websites as an alternative means of communication for those who may be unable to attend a meeting.

The committee received submissions on the White Paper from Dóchas, Trócaire and the Debt and Development Coalition Ireland. We have also received a submission from the disability inclusion task force which has been circulated to members. I spoke to its chairperson earlier today and am delighted it has included its important submission to the committee. The committee will have its submission in before the closing date.

Ms Nora Owen

It might be helpful if I gave a brief summary of the work done by the Irish Aid expert advisory group. I must apologise for being late but I just got in from a flight. It is a bit strange to be sitting on this side of the room as the last time I did so was when I was Minister for Justice and it was not always pleasant.

The group I chair comprises Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick, director of the centre for global development at University College Cork; Professor Tom Lodge, director of the MA in peace and development studies at the University of Limerick and who has also worked in political studies at the University of Johannesburg; and Professor Jane Harrigan, professor of economics and head of department at the school of oriental and African studies, London, whose course focuses on the issues the committee is covering such as foreign aid, trade, growth, development, international migration and labour.

Recently, the group was joined by Dr. Naomi Ngwira from Malawi who is a noted expert on gender, social sectors, agriculture and budget aid effectiveness. For several years she was the director of the debt and aid division in the ministry of finance in Malawi. Donal McNally, who has recently retired, was second Secretary General at the Department of Finance, and he keeps us on the straight and narrow with regard to money. We also have Ronan Murphy, who has addressed this committee previously in a different guise as former director general of Irish Aid.

We have had consultations throughout the country, having advertised in the newspapers and on radio. People have come on their own initiative to these meetings which have had a round table format for discussion. At each table people appoint a facilitator and discuss the issues we ask them to consider, such as how we can deliver aid more effectively with reduced budgets and whether there are things we should consider removing, changing or altering. It would be interesting to hear the opinions of committee members on this approach.

Some of the discussions have been quite robust. Issues have been raised with regard to trade being involved with development aid and the effect that might have, particularly if aid becomes more oriented towards trade and whether that would help the poorest people. Some people attending the meetings have stated passionately that we should not have an aid programme when our country is in such dire straits. We have heard a range of opinions, from those of people who want to see more money spent to those of people raising questions. As an independent oversight group, we will consider all of these issues and will summarise what we have heard at these meetings and then provide the Minister with an independent view. The review is the property, as it were, of the Minister, but we have been given a task to look at the issue independently.

I have pointed this out for the committee so that it will know that we have got a varied range of submissions, both written and oral, at these meetings. I am pleased by that, because it shows there are plenty of people in the country with a deep interest in our development aid programme. They know it is an important part of our foreign affairs programme and want to keep it going.

Thank you.

I apologise that I may have to leave before the discussion is over, but I will listen to it later. The review is a wonderful initiative from Irish Aid and is being conducted in a very open and transparent way. I attended the human rights conference and got to the Radisson Blu and was at a table where there was robust discussion. Therefore, I know what Ms Owen was talking about. I am also involved with UEPA and development issues are ones in which I am extremely interested and support.

There are a few points I would like to make. I support some of the issues raised by the Debt and Development Coalition Ireland. We have seen the result of irresponsible lending in Ireland and I believe Ireland and Irish Aid have a role in ensuring that loans are issued in a responsible manner to countries, without attaching conditions that create and add to inequality.

This brings us to the issue of tax justice, an issue I have raised here when speaking about our corporate tax rate. We must face the fact that evasion takes place. In the context of developing countries, it is immoral and unethical that some multinational companies have been able to evade paying just taxes and my submission will call for country-by-country reporting of profits and taxes. A focus on mental health and disability must be part of each of the millennium goals. Whether we speak of hunger or gender equality, there are particular issues for people with disabilities and mental health issues and Irish Aid can play a strong role in that regard.

The Minister of State spoke about people taking control of their own lives. That is central. Whether we talk about investment in Africa or elsewhere, we are talking about shared sustainable growth. We must not contribute to creating a class society in developing countries that will end up doing more damage than good. This brings me to the role of a parliament rather than government. This came up in Busan and our Chairman spoke about parliamentary oversight and how vital it is. Climate is a significant issue, but we sometimes do not take it seriously enough. We talk about it, but we are not investing in that area. We play a part with regard to human rights and civil society and much of this comes down to Ireland's ambassadors. I pay tribute to the number of ambassadors I have met, particularly our ambassador in Lesotho who is a hands-on person who works with Irish Aid and who is immersed in the work and in dealing directly with it. When human rights issues are involved, particularly in the case of trials of human rights activists from civil society, an Irish presence can make a significant difference. Our reputation in this area is second to none.

Our aid must be shared and must be sustainable. We must remember we are taking part in a partnership. This comes across in what is being done. We could talk about the issues forever, but I have mentioned the aspects that seem important to me.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit chuig an cruinniú seo inniu. I welcome the Minister of State. I know he is a man who has taken a deep interest in this issue and it is good that he is now in a position to pursue projects, ideas and policies he has favoured during his time in politics.

I wish to pick up on a number of points raised by the Minister of State. He mentioned the importance of reducing poverty and helping children survive their first years and go to school. We would all subscribe to that. However, it is somewhat ironic that today in the Dáil there will be a motion to ensure that people do not even get to that stage or to surviving childhood. This is a controversial topic in the area of aid, particularly in other countries. Given our strong position with regard to protecting the unborn, I wonder whether there is a role we can play in injecting this proposal more prominently into the policies we are pursuing in Irish Aid. Perhaps we can also inject it into international policy and I urge the Minister of State to consider this.

The approach being taken is very good. I welcome the fact that our embassies are involved and that they are having consultations in the various countries. This should provide useful feedback for guiding policy. I also welcome the comments by the Minister of State with regard to value for money or bang for buck. The reduction he has identified and the scarce resources available over the medium term may go beyond the groups with whom the Minister of State deals, but there is good oversight of the money spent. In that regard, what evaluations are made initially as to where money will be spent? What systematic evaluation follows then to measure outputs and benefits?

My next point may not apply except to some degree. Our NGOs do marvellous work and it is essential to use their expertise and commitment. However, there have been some cases where administrative costs, overheads and executive salaries have been highlighted. Any NGO funded by the State should provide this type of information in its application for funding, and the State should put itself in a position to influence that. We do not want situations where money does not get to the end objective. I have heard it said that State money goes to the objective, but that moneys raised by the organisations themselves can cover those other costs. I do not accept that argument. I urge diligence in this regard. I know there are many good examples of the prudent manner in which most NGOs operate. Reference was made to going into countries to assist and to complement their development tools such as through taxation, political dialogue, foreign investment, trade and so on. What are Irish Aid's plans on approaching this? Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan put her finger on it. At the end of the day, sustainable development should be the key. Where there are abuses of privilege, which run counter to the objective, how does Irish Aid approach it?

This is a good document, which identifies the key issues, including hunger, situations of fragility and climate change. Disability did not figure but it is a key issue in the context of poverty in many areas. Ireland has a good record on disability and I hope we will try to mainstream it as a key priority in targeting our funds.

This is a fascinating debate. When Dochas and Trócaire representatives appeared before the committee, we examined the quality of service from this country to the developing world in tackling poverty and wondered whether quality could be improved. Everybody is conscious that we do a marvellous job with the funding we provide. We punch above our weight but the question is how we move forward with the new thinking process. The White Paper was published in 2006 and, therefore, has been in circulation for six years. The consultation process will come to a conclusion this month. I presume in the past aid followed our missionaries, predominantly to the African continent, where money was collected via the black baby boxes in schools. How do the professionals evaluate the areas of greatest poverty? I am conscious that, for example, many African countries have strengthened economically and have gained independence, thereby becoming more self-sufficient. Given there is an historical link between our missionaries and Africa, how are poverty levels measured in central Asia or central America? Does Irish Aid still follow missionaries who go into mainly English speaking countries or has it a remit to go further afield?

There is a reasonably strong Malawian influence on the advisory committee and the Minister of State has undertaken visits to that country. The meetings were held in Malawi and fair dues to the Malawians. What feedback have the host countries given the representatives? They are engaging with the private sector and this is relatively new in the aid world. Does this mean they are engaging with entrepreneurs and business people whom they hope will make financial contributions to the battle against poverty or are they engaging with them with a view to developing trade relationships with the donor countries? Are the representatives looking for charitable contributions from the O'Briens of this world or are they being asked to work alongside Irish Aid to develop projects?

We have €639 million to spend and it is important that we are accountable for how it is spent. However, before the committee makes its final submission, will the representatives explain how poverty is quantified and who carries out that role? Is language a barrier? If Ireland is a humanitarian nation trying to improve the lot of the less well off, are we blinkered from the non-English speaking world, where significant poverty exists?

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials and I wish him well in his role. I have no doubt he is well advised and his experience as a Member of the House for a long number of years will stand him in good stead.

This review is important at this juncture from our point of view and from that of recipient countries for a number of reasons. The first is the entire developed world is affected by the economic downturn. That tends to focus governments on where they are spending money. Fortunately, a number of us in the House have kept that to the fore over the years by anticipating what was likely to occur. We repeatedly raised questions about the effectiveness of our aid programme, whether it was focused on the needs of those for whom it was and intended in the first place and the necessity to ensure vulnerable people were not bullied off the platform by those with other agendas. They are many of those in the current climate.

I particularly welcome the agrifood development fund, as it is a useful means of uniting the expertise in the donor country with the need in recipient countries in a way that will be hugely beneficial to everybody. I compliment those involved. That is the reverse of what was happening in some poor countries where multinational corporations moved in to, for example, deforest and became involved in massive agrifood programmes, which were targeted to benefit the investor as opposed to the unfortunate population in the surrounding area while, in theory, giving the impression it was a direct positive intervention to alleviate poverty. It was not and it had other disruptive effects.

It is hugely important that we come to a conclusion on the definitions of "hunger" and "poverty" because there are vast differences in the definitions of same and significant numbers of people are being endangered as a result. It was suggested at another committee meeting earlier this week that those who are perceived to be wealthy should be taxed more. However, another member suggested that these people's bank managers should be asked whether they are wealthy because circumstances have changed. We need to know how poverty levels are determined in order that the aid programme is focused on those for whom it was intended and those who are in the greatest need. Definitions are, therefore, important because we must justify our existence to our electorate.

The Minister of State and Deputy Byrne referred to the issue of disability. To what extent is the aid programme focused on those with disabilities or those who have serious health problems such as HIV to alleviate the burden on the people themselves and on the administrations dealing with the huge problem of HIV, which has affected several countries? We need to know what the experience has been. Are we achieving our targets and keeping pace with the demand? That goes back to responding to basic needs as outlined in the review of the programme. I would like to know more about that.

Good governance and human rights were referred to by other speakers, along with preventing corruption and improving accountability, all of which will ensure that we, too, can stand over what we are doing, that the money is being well spent, has gone where it was intended to go in the first place, where there was a great need for it. It also helps to remind all of us that even though we are in dire straits in our own present economic situation, as God knows very many of us are, and hurting badly, it is never any harm to reflect for a moment on those who are hurting worse, in other situations. Even though we may not be directly responsible, it is no harm for us to undergo that self-examination at all times and remember there are others in a worse situation. I do not go along with the notion mentioned by speakers, namely, that there is a lot of anger. Anger does not put bread on the table. Steinbeck wrote about that many years ago and he clearly knew what he was talking about. In order to focus on this we need to be able to say, "Look, we are bad but there is another lot of people out there who are a hell of a lot worse".

My last point is one we have made in the past - I certainly have - in the context of the World Trade Organisation and EU discussions within the WTO relating to climate change. Climate change was used, unfairly, I believe, by multinational corporations to secure agreements from the WTO which were beneficial to them but had no beneficial impact whatsoever in the countries in which they were located. They had the effect of seriously damaging the potential of the European Union to be able to be of greater asssistance by virtue of its being pushed out of the marketplace by the multinational corporations which had other agendas.

I apologise for speaking for so long.

That is all right. Deputy Neville is next, I realise he has to leave.

I have to attend a meeting. I welcome the group and thank the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, for his attendance. We go back quite a bit together.

My most recent experience was in Ethiopia and I have read quite a bit about these issues since visiting that country. One thing that struck me in regard to the work done on the ground was that there was no question about its sustainability. People commented to us that the work of Irish Aid and the non-governmental agencies is the most productive of any aid received. Comparisons were made with the United States. One prominent person, who was Irish, told me that the Americans come in, bringing many volunteers whose expenses are well-paid. They engage in many activities, then clear out and nothing is left. That was just one example. People compared this to the Irish Aid work which I saw for myself on the ground. If Irish Aid left in the morning there would be productive projects and improvements in lifestyle and life generally. That was one area.

We were concerned about civil society and its role in many of these countries and raised this issue. On our part there was some walking on eggshells around the issue in certain ways even though we did not recognise this at the time only when we examined the situation in hindsight and looked at what was happening. It is difficult to respect the Government and the systems in the country in question by comparing them to our view of engagement with civil society. There are restrictions arising in many of these countries. We have been questioned by some people about ensuring that Ireland's work, as Irish Aid, is not supporting a system that would not be acceptable under our democratic system. How one deals with that is one of the dilemmas we face.

The same applies to the whole area of marginalised people. There are limited resources when one is working in seriously deprived areas but there is a further level of marginalisation within those communities. I refer to areas that were mentioned such as mental ill-health and disability and the culture that surrounds them. Sometimes these are left aside. We can recognise them because we have often worked in this area and still do, in some ways, with people who are marginalised, for whatever reason. There is no ideal solution to these issues but there should be a recognition that they exist and that work is being done through the investment in Irish Aid.

I wish to raise another issue. We have looked at the non-governmental agencies. Deputy Durkan mentioned they do outstanding work and I have seen the work on the ground. Has there been any deep examination in regard to levels of duplication and the effectiveness of the overall work of the NGOs and the co-operation and complementary work that can be done by these organisations? This applies not only to NGOs in the foreign aid area but to those in all aspects of Irish society. There is an unbelievable level of duplication and in consequence there is not a full contribution of resources. I do not imagine Irish Aid or our NGOs in this area are in any way different. We have raised this issue in other areas and it should not be ignored. There is a need for effectiveness in regard to the full investment made by our people, not only through Irish Aid but through the voluntary contributions of people towards the Third World.

We worry about the sustainability of funding for Irish Aid. Those of us on the committee who are very committed to this must endeavour at all stages to pre-empt such consideration under periods of difficulties when savings might be sought. From my experience on this committee I can say the Minister of State has very strong support for maintaining levels of support for Irish Aid even though we will suffer much political difficulty in regard to decisions that must be taken. We feel strongly that Irish Aid is one of the areas that should be protected because we have a duty to our fellow man. We may argue about this at times. I refer to the American Indians who supported us at one time and the Turks who did likewise at a difficult time in the 19th century, during the Famine.

I thank Deputy Neville for his contribution and Deputy Nash for allowing the Deputy speak at this time.

I welcome the submission from the disability sector which is considered and thoughtful. I hope it is reflected in the final report, which the committee will give further consideration to in due course. I want to ensure the review clearly restates Ireland's historic commitment, reflected in the programme for Government, to reach 0.7% of GNP. That is critical. I spoke at our recent party conference, as did the Minister of State, on the moral necessity for Ireland to reach the target and the practical benefits that accrue to the country. In advance of the conference, I made a remark to my colleague about what I was going to discuss and how my remarks would be received by the public. Regrettably, when we discuss Ireland's foreign aid commitments publicly, on television or on the radio, we often receive cynical negative comments, particularly about the situation in which many people find themselves. That is unfortunate and regrettable but predictable. Many of the comments remarks are more reminiscent of the barstool philosopher than someone with an informed view.

I am glad the review group and the Department are ensuring an online presence promoting the review process. We are trying to inculcate the view in the public that this is positive and emblematic of our independence. We should wear our overseas development aid commitments as a badge of honour. Ironically, now that we have lost economic sovereignty, it is more important than ever that we use the platform provided by overseas development aid as a way to convince the international community that we are independent, that we take a different view, that this is what Ireland does and that this is what is inherent in the Irish people given what they hold to be important. As Oireachtas Members, we have a responsibility to promote that view, as does the Department and Irish Aid. We have a responsibility to have a robust and clear set of communication goals on how we communicate a message. This refers not just to how we communicate the message of the review now, but how we communicate in the future.

Notwithstanding the fact that all our NGOs do excellent work here and abroad, a view has developed that a certain percentage of the money we donate to NGOs as a State and as members of the public is wasted on administration and does not reach the target group. This view often goes unchallenged but it is not a fact. Improvements have been made over the past number of years in ensuring we get as much as possible to the target country and individuals. It is important we use clear case studies on how the money is spent and that our value for money approach is robust, which it is. It has improved considerably in recent years. Does the Minister of State intend to continue that online and social media approach to try to address some of the shibboleths about overseas development aid?

The Minister of State made remarks about how we can share institutional experience with the developing world. This State has an important and interesting story about how we built our State apparatus. Many newer states and some programme states are probably experiencing issues similar to what we experienced post-independence from a bureaucratic, administrative and state-building point of view. Can the Minister of State elaborate on how the review feeds into that process and how the Irish State interacts with other programme countries in terms of democracy building, institution building and state building?

I welcome the Minister of State to the committee. Some of my colleagues raised the question of how to define poverty. One of the interesting parts of the contribution of the Minister of State is how the number of households with insufficient food in Malawi was reduced from one in four in 2006 to one in ten today. I am a supporter of Irish Aid but when we read in The Irish Times that one in five children go to bed hungry, it puts into stark contrast the battle to make Irish Aid more effective. The chances of a child receiving a valid education when the child cannot concentrate because he or she is going to bed, waking up or going to school hungry is of serious concern. What is more startling is that it only accounted for a relatively small number of column inches on page 6 of The Irish Times and I have not heard much about it since. According to this benchmark, the children in Malawi are doing better than the children in Ireland. There are major differences in measurement but I am concerned that it is hard for us to say we should spend €600 million.

Ireland is allocating €250 million to the European external action programme for six years, which was approved by this committee in March. This is a problem in that much of our overseas aid budget goes en bloc to the EU. We must provide 1.17% of what the EU will spend on external action or other programmes such as IMF programmes. There are plenty of other examples. Since we started at the beginning of this year, the committee has committed €1 billion to various EU groups and organisations because we must give 1.17% of whatever the EU institution decides the overall budget should be. That is my concern. We are giving more and more of a limited budget because we must give it to these various organisations and less of the budget is available to go to direct partnership aid, over which we have control, and to NGOs, where we see more bang for our buck.

Who reviews how the EU external action spends the €250 million we give it? Does Irish Aid do so? I take it this is part of the overall Irish Aid budget. Will Irish Aid come back to this committee and say it is terribly disappointed with the way €250 million of Irish taxpayers' money was spent? How will we have oversight on these monoliths to see how we will get any value from it? When the Minister of State takes into account our overseas aid budget, we are borrowing money to give it away. Are the borrowing costs of the €600 million we are taking as part of the overseas aid budget included in our aid budget? If we are to borrow money from our EU partners and then give it back to another EU institution, does the latter decide that we do not have to give 1.17% because we are borrowing it in the first place? Should it be counted as part of our overseas aid budget?

I do not have a grasp on the audit and oversight aspects. External reviews are carried out. I understand auditing is done by British universities. Is a British institution paid by Irish Aid to carry out the audits? The banks appoint auditors who, because they would like to be reappointed the following year, give a clean bill of health. That is the auditing process. Perhaps the witnesses could clarify how auditors are appointed. Rather than Irish Aid spending money on the appointment of auditors should the Comptroller and Auditor General not do the work?

My colleague, Senator Walsh, referred to the Charities Act which despite being passed has not yet been implemented. The NGOs are urging it to be implemented because they do not want rogue players who have not been properly scrutinised using the good name of Irish NGOs and people's good will towards them. I believe the statutory instruments to be put in place under the Charities Act would address this issue.

We previously discussed the millennium development goals with representatives from Irish Aid. I have previously asked if when it comes to partner country reviews it would be possible to use our work in Zambia with the Dutch and Swedes in the prevention of HIV and AIDS as a benchmark. For example, could we during that process use as a benchmark the level of the problem in regard to HIV and AIDS prior to our going into Zambia as a partner country 20 years ago and could we also in this regard use the effectiveness of our programme there? Ireland is the lead country in HIV and AIDS prevention, which is one of the millennium development goals. The same applies in respect of Lesotho where previously primary education completion was only 20% to 30% and is now 74%. These are the type of benchmarks that could be used in future reports in regard to achievement of the millennium development goals. We are not involved in all of the millennium development goals in Lesotho. We are involved in particular issues. Perhaps the witnesses would take my views on board.

It is ironic that we are borrowing money from EU institutions to give back to EU institutions. I wonder if the interest payments on those borrowings could be counted as part of our overseas aid budget.

I now call on the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, to reply. Ms Owen and Mr. Fitzpatrick can comment further after the Minister of State if they so wish.

I thank all Members for their wide-ranging contributions today. I also thank them for their support for the programme and the work being done by Irish Aid. It is right that they should question various aspects of the work of Irish Aid in the context of whether or not it is effective or should be refocused in certain areas.

Ireland is regarded as a world leader in the delivery of effective and quality programmes. The most recent OECD report in this respect puts us first in the world. We are providing value for money and have an effective track record to date. We are currently reviewing the 2006 White Paper, which is a fine document, and analysing where we are at in terms of what has been achieved and where we are going into the future in terms of changing circumstances.

Ireland has a legacy in regard to Irish Aid which dates back centuries to when the missionaries went to work in the poorest of poor countries throughout the world, providing therein education, health and other services to people at the bottom of the pile. This has been done for many decades throughout the world. In many ways, we are retracing the steps of the missionaries. Irish Aid was established in 1974 by former Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald. It is not as old as people might think. Its focus has always been to seek out the poorest of the poor and as such that is where our programmes are concentrated.

It was agreed in the 2006 White Paper that we would try to work with ten programme countries. We currently work with nine programme countries, seven of which are based in Sub-Saharan Africa, which is regarded as the poorest area in the world. The general estimate is that if things there continue as they are 50% of all the world's poor will by 2030 be concentrated in Sub-Saharan Africa. As such we face a challenge. This is the view of all international agencies including the United Nations, OECD and the European Union. We also have programmes in Vietnam, which was recovering from a terrible war with the United States and in Timor Leste. Ireland played a proud role in the independence of East Timor. Senator Norris, Tom Hyland and others were very much involved in that work. They are the countries on which we have concentrated our aid.

Everywhere we have gone we have always asserted and articulated that the underlying principle of our programmes is human rights. As mentioned by many Members, including the Chairman, we have never had a tied aid programme. However, there is one condition attached to our aid and that is human rights. We have articulated that from street to governmental level. The starting point for discussions with government Ministers in Ethiopia and Malawi, both of which I visited during the past two months, was their human rights record. That is the case everywhere we go.

In reviewing the White Paper we are looking at how we are going to move forward in changing circumstances from our own point of view. We have lost 30% of our funding. However, it has stabilised this year in that it has only dropped by 0.1% despite having dropped 10% during the previous three years. We must consider how we move from emerging situations into sustainable and self sufficiency situations. Deputy O'Sullivan was correct in terms of her comments in regard to shared sustainable growth. We are looking at this as a partnership between a donor and poor recipient, which has been the view for a long time. We want to build on this. Obviously donor countries are countries that have money to give but the recipient countries are anxious to be treated as equals. They want to be viewed as receiving a hand up rather than a hand out. We must take this into consideration.

I recall the degree of enthusiasm among representatives of the African union countries at the summit in Ethiopia for a new dimension to our relationship. While they believe the aid dimension is worthwhile and it is appreciated, they see a move towards a trade, investment and business dimension as permitting them to deal with us on an equal basis. They believe this new dimension should be complementary with Irish Aid. The challenge we face as we begin the review process is how we are going to take into consideration changing circumstances on the African continent. There have been some emerging countries in that area. Africa has had a 6% to 7% growth rate over the past five or six years and it is estimated it will grow by 5% to 6% over the next five or six years. That is very unequal, as it is in so many other emerging countries. We have to take that into consideration. How do we best provide assistance and expertise? How do we best engage in trade with countries where our previous engagement involved nothing but the provision of aid? How do we marry the two? How do we make sure we do not go down the road of a tied aid process, as some other countries have done? The manner in which minerals, etc., are extracted from various poor African countries as part of such a process might be described as exploitative to some degree. We have to ensure African countries get the added value that might not be available at present.

A number of members referred to the new agricultural fund that has been established across the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Trade and Agriculture, Food and the Marine, both of which have invested €1 million in the fund. The purpose of the bilateral agreement between the two Departments is to ensure they work together as part of a more holistic approach, as opposed to a single Department being involved.

The area of agriculture is crucial in all parts of the underdeveloped world. We have some of the best agricultural expertise in the world. We need to bring that to bear in developing countries by helping to improve the quality of the crops, increase production levels, etc. Standards need to be raised so that these countries can sell their agricultural products on the international market. In many cases, they are unable to do so at present. The pilot scheme we are operating in this key area can probably be extended to most countries in Africa.

Other Departments can also be of assistance in the broader frame of things. It is obvious that there is expertise in the Department of Education and Skills, as there is in the Department of Health. The Department of Finance can help on tax collection and revenue matters. The Department of Justice and Equality can help on good quality policing practices. We can look at all of these areas.

We should also re-examine the question of volunteering. Quite recently, some 8,000 people in this country between the ages of 55 and 65, who were at the top of their professions, retired suddenly. Many of them were working in areas like education, health, prisons, policing and the Army. We need to consider whether we can tap into that cohort of people and avail of their expertise. There are opportunities in that regard.

Looking at the broad picture, many circumstances have changed. Irish Aid has moved from its mission background to the provision of food during famine emergencies. It is also involved in education and health. It has achieved significant successes along the way. I will mention some of the areas where Ireland has been involved. The risk of children in Ethiopia dying before they reach their fifth year has almost been halved since 2000, when we got involved. We made a contribution to that improvement. Members of the committee might have witnessed some of the programmes there, which are second to none. Poverty levels in Uganda have fallen dramatically from 53% in 1992 to 23% in 2010. More than 66,000 pregnant women in Mozambique have received treatment to prevent mother to child transmission of HIV. There has been a substantial decrease in such transmissions.

Ireland has supported a Government programme in Malawi that is providing 1.6 million farmers with subsidised fertilisers and seeds. As a result of the programme, in just a few years Malawi has moved from being a net importer of maize to a net exporter. That is a huge change for any country. Obviously, that has been of enormous benefit to people and their families. Some 3,600 orphans and vulnerable children in Lesotho are attending secondary school with the support of Irish Aid. Over the last two decades, primary school enrolments in Ethiopia have quadrupled and the number of people with access to clean water has more than doubled. We have to consider how we can follow up on such major developments. We need to reprioritise and refocus to ensure we learn the lessons of the past and recognise that circumstances have changed. We must have best practice for the future.

It is clear that governance is a major issue. We are very concerned with that subject. We have put a lot of work into it. There is not much sense in being involved with an area where there is strong corruption, where there is pilfering or where money gets lost. We are doing a great deal of work to support the establishment of anti-corruption commissions in all of the countries in which we are involved. That is extremely beneficial. As a result of the investment we have made in personnel and in structures to assist our endeavours, much of the awareness of corruption is actually coming from within those countries.

Ireland has always taken a strong position on climate change. Like the hunger task force agenda, it has been at the core of much of the work we have done. Next year, during Ireland's Presidency of the EU, we will organise an international conference in conjunction with the Mary Robinson Foundation to highlight the question of hunger, nutrition, climate justice and climate change. We will focus on the links within the global community in that respect.

I wish to mention an issue that is of interest to the Chairman as a representative of the Clare constituency. One of the priorities set out in the programme for Government is the establishment of a humanitarian hub. We are making progress with that by conducting a study to determine how feasible such an operation would be. We have been speaking to Commissioner Georgieva about it. We would like this committee and the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs to make as much progress as possible with this issue. Ever since the Lisbon treaty was adopted, a new statutory commitment to humanitarian aid and the eradication of poverty has been included within the treaties of the EU. We believe it would be most appropriate for it to be located in an area like Shannon, which has enormous capacity for every aeroplane under the sun. It could be the hub where supplies for emergencies like tsunamis and famines could be located before being transported to disaster areas or flashpoints at short notice. That is another area that could be examined in the context of the review of the White Paper.

I would like to address the question of multilateral co-ordination. We make contributions at UN and EU levels. Senator Daly is not present. We are still in receipt of more money from the EU than we provide to it. We are not directly involved in the funding of the EU's External Action Service. We provide money to the European Development Fund. We contribute to a multilateral fund with the EU. We are anxious for that funding to be used in a co-ordinated fashion. The bilateral arrangements within the EU level and the UN arrangements should be of the highest order.

The EU accounting and transparency directives are being revised at present. Consideration is being given to how private sector engagement takes place at a multinational level. There will be much closer examination and oversight of the manner in which the multinational companies of the EU are involved in poorer countries. Ireland is taking a strong position on that as it is being progressed. We want to ensure the private sector is engaged. While we want the private sector to become engaged, we want to ensure its involvement in the world's poorest countries is not predatory or exploitative. We are very anxious to develop the African strategy in that respect. A number of people asked how we would manage the private and aid sectors. The private sector is very interested and we have met its representatives. Approximately 150 companies, represented in the Smurfit School when the African strategy was announced, expressed interest in engagement. There is much engagement already in that Irish companies have created approximately 13,000 jobs in South Africa. They are interested in expanding into other countries.

We are very anxious that the engagement of the private sector be ethical. The Department has much of the necessary expertise and has advisory material from Enterprise Ireland, Bord Bia, the IDA, etc. We have personnel in our embassies focusing on trade matters. The embassy is the great unit of operation. It provides backup in the distribution of Irish aid, accounting on the ground and contacts. This applies to the African strategy, in respect of which the focus will be on the embassies in Africa. The goodwill established through Irish missionaries and which has continued under Irish Aid and the various contacts cannot be bought. This is the goodwill that we expect Irish companies that get involved to leave untarnished. We hope they engage in partnership with the African companies, and we will assist in that respect. That covers most of the issues raised.

I will conclude on the topic of awareness. It is very important that we have the support of the Irish people. While it is a fact that every penny that goes to Irish Aid must be borrowed, we are dealing with people who are infinitely poorer than we are at present. We must ask whether it is appropriate to turn our back on the legacy that has been created, dismantle all our programmes and say we will no longer deal with the aid recipients. The Irish do not want that. When there is a disaster, tsunami or famine, the Irish are the best in the world at making a contribution. They do not want their elected representatives to renege on their moral obligation.

What I have outlined will continue to be the case. It is very important that the public or taxpayer feels ownership of the programme. Reference was made to social and online media. We are putting together a new and improved website and will be continuing to highlight this so anybody who is not able to make direct contact will be well aware of our views and will be able to engage in dialogue through social media.

I thank the Chairman for the hearing. We would welcome further dialogue from the committee in regard to the submissions that have been made and future work.

Ms Nora Owen

The Minister of State has handled the issues very adequately. Our real aim today was to hear what the members thought about the review and the issues they wanted to bring to our attention. I thank them for their input, of which we have taken note and which we will take on board in the review.

I would like to address the area of disability. Over the past couple of years, we have spent approximately €6 million to €7 million on disability programmes abroad as part of our overseas development aid. I consider and will make this area a priority.

We have some issues to sort out ourselves in that we have not ratified the convention on disability. We have to put our own house in order first. I understand the mental health Bill is in the process of being finalised. Once it has passed through the Houses, we will be in a position to ratify the convention on disability. At that point, we will have our house in order and will be in a better position. With regard to the new review process, I intend to make disability a central issue.

It is good to hear that. I compliment our embassies and missions abroad, which do great, hard work. We have seen this at first hand on a number of occasions. I hope that, in the near future, some of our ambassadors overseas will appear before the committee when they are here on a break. I thank the Minister of State and his officials. It is important that the officials be in attendance. I thank also the members of the Irish Aid expert advisory group, including Ms Nora Owen and Mr. Patrick Fitzpatrick.

We have had a very useful discussion this afternoon and it will help us in preparing our submission on the review of the White Paper, which we expect to discuss. We will transmit our views to the Minister of State rapidly in the coming weeks. The Minister of State must now proceed to other engagements.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.05 p.m. and adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday, 19 April 2012.
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