Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Wednesday, 19 Dec 2012

Trade Promotion: Discussion (Resumed) with Arab-Irish Chamber of Commerce

Chairman

I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting, as they cause interference with the recording equipment, even when left in silent mode.

This is part of a continuing series of meetings and other activities relating to trade promotion and the role of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in assisting economic recovery. The aim of the committee's examination is to prepare and publish a report on the strategy of and response by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to the economic crisis, the Department's new responsibility for trade promotion and the role of trade promotion in economic recovery as outlined in the programme for Government. The committee will examine the performance of the Department in these respects. It commenced the process earlier this year with the formal adoption of a scoping document. We have discussed the issues involved with senior officials of the Department. We have also held meetings with the main State agencies involved in trade and investment. A committee delegation held 30 trade-related meetings in three cities in the United States during June. The committee also heard the views of the private sector from IBEC and the Irish Exporters Association. It also intends to examine the way in which the visa system supports or inhibits trade promotion and meet organisations on the promotion of agricultural exports. It intends to have meetings with other trade organisations and chambers of commerce during 2013.

The purpose of this meeting is to examine the issue of trade with the Arab world. A number of Arab countries have embassies in Ireland, including Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Last year I visited Qatar where I met Irish business people operating there. I was struck by their level of optimism about the possible benefits for Ireland from trade and inward investment from the Gulf region. We met many engineers involved in the construction sector there and noted the existence of a Qatari-Irish business forum. There may be similar fora in other Gulf states. There are opportunities in the United Arab Emirates. Etihad Airways operates 17 weekly flights from Dublin to Abu Dhabi and Dubai. There has been a significant change in the relationship between Ireland and the Arab world and in our view there are significant opportunities for Ireland to improve its trade with these countries.

We are joined by Mr. Louis Maguire whom I met earlier this year at the Joint Arab-Irish Chamber of Commerce function in Dublin. I was very impressed by this organisation. Mr. Maguire is also the honorary consul of Tunisia. I have no doubt that with his knowledge and experience of the Arab world he will offer a very interesting perspective on how Ireland can make the most of the opportunities in the region.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continues to so do, he or she is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Maguire. I think members will be very interested in his presentation on the strong relationships between the Arab world and Ireland on which it is hoped to build.

Mr. Louis Maguire

The Chairman said we had strong relations with countries in the Arab world, and we have with some of those countries. I heard somebody boast recently that the value of our exports to the Middle East was €3 billion last year. I regard that as scratching the surface. There are approximately 400 million Arabs in various countries in the Middle East. The first point I will make is that every Irish company, regardless of what it has to offer, is welcome in the Middle East. As I said at the function to which the Chairman referred, the Irish are more welcome in the Middle East than they are in any other part of the world. In terms of trade promotion, we concentrate on Europe, which is an important market, but I recall that when I went to the Middle East in the early days there was no trade between Ireland and that region because there was an incorrect perception in some countries that Ireland was part of Britain, which stemmed from the occupation of the Six Counties. I had to first clear the air by reassuring people that this was not the case and that we had our own Republic. Once they heard that they all wanted to deal with Ireland. I have been going to the Arab world on a regular basis a few times a year for the past 40 years; I first went there in 1972.

There are many things that are right and many that are wrong in our country. One issue about which I bitterly complain is that of access to visas. For Arabs, whether they be dignitaries or people who want to work here or come here on holiday, obtaining a visa is an awful problem. For example, if one was living in Tunisia and wanted to travel to Ireland, one would have to get a visa from our ambassador in Madrid. Nobody in Tunisia is aware of that, and they must be advised of it. We now have a consul in Tunisia, but that visa process is ridiculous. Such an individual could possibly get a visa on arrival in Britain. Addressing the processing of visas is one area to be examined if we are interested in expanding tourism.

A delegation from the Saudi Arabia tourist organisation visited here in 2010. Many people might not think there is such an organisation in Saudi Arabia but there is. That delegation was here for three days. The members of it approached me on arrival and I met them. They wanted to meet people in authority. I will not pull any punches in saying that I contacted the Minister's office, but the Minister was not available to see them. The Minister's secretary suggested I contact Tourism Ireland, which I did. I asked whether these people could meet somebody in the organisation but there was nobody available to meet them for the two or three days they were here. I then asked if Tourism Ireland could at least put a package together and send it to the Shelbourne Hotel where the delegation was saying, which it did. I received a telephone call about a fortnight later from somebody in Abu Dhabi advising that he or she was looking after Tourism Ireland for Saudi Arabia. If the committee members want to confuse me, tell me something like that - how somebody in Abu Dhabi could be looking after tourism for Ireland is beyond me. I do not want to concentrate totally on tourism but I know the importance of the industry to every country. It was very important to us in the past and we have lost a bit of it. We as a nation are noted for going on holidays abroad and while our people travel all over the world, they mostly go to Spain and France and such countries. There are beautiful tourist resorts throughout the Middle East. One could have a lovely holiday in Morocco, Tunisia or Dubai at a much more reasonable price than one might imagine and there is no excuse for people not to travel there now that there are 17 flights a week, although they are mostly to Abu Dhabi and Dubai. It is time we opened up flights to countries such as Tunisia and Morocco, where there are great tourism opportunities, and I believe they would reciprocate by sending their people here.

Chairman

I believe there are charter flights to those two countries.

Mr. Louis Maguire

There are charter flights to Morocco, but such flights may not be running to Tunisia. It is up to us to make sure our airline runs flights there.

Trade with the Middle East has been very important to the Irish economy. We have three ambassadors in the Middle East. Some are accredited to other countries, but that arrangement does not really work. There are simple solutions to all of this. Ambassadors are extremely important for business. When I first went to the Middle East I went to Libya, Lebanon and Iraq. I remember that the Iraqi ambassador in London at that time wanted me to go to Iraq and said he would set up appointments for me. Not only did he set up appointments; he made appointments for me to meet every minister in the cabinet at different times. I saw every one of them, and that was the start of Iraqi trade with Ireland. If somebody as humble as me could help start trade, what could the Government achieve if Deputies and Senators were to go there? In 1973, at the request of the Iraqi authorities, I brought a delegation of parliamentarians from the three major parties to Iraq and it was a very successful trip. It was so successful that the following year Libya hitched onto the trade mission and I brought a delegation of parliamentarians to that country also. The success of those missions was evident in those days. I do not want to bore anyone with statistics but we are missing the boat in terms of trade and tourism and unless matters are rectified, things will not improve.

If members have any questions I will do my best to answer them.

Chairman

I am sure many members will want to ask questions. I acknowledge that we have a resident ambassador from Morocco in this country.

Mr. Louis Maguire

Yes; I know that.

Chairman

I call Deputy Smith.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I join the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Maguire. I know from reading material over the years that he has been active in promoting this country in areas in which there has been potential for increased trade. The Chairman referred to the Moroccan ambassador, whom I have got to know during the past few years. He has been very active in this country. I had some interaction with him during the term of the previous Government regarding the equestrian area. We met groups that were over here at the time. Mr. Maguire referred to tourism and the fact that a delegation from Saudi Arabia was not met by either officials from the Department or those from Tourism Ireland. That is not acceptable in any day and age. Irrespective of whether we are in good times or in the midst of a recession, people deserve to be met. Irrespective of whatever can arise from such meetings, it is important that such people are met.

Mr. Maguire mentioned that we have three ambassadors covering the Middle East region. I agree wholeheartedly with him that our diplomatic network has done us proud as a country over the years. Our diplomats, ambassadors and support staff punch above the weight of the country in providing public representatives and officials on trade missions with access to decision makers in those countries. I am sure the Tánaiste and his Department would love to have a greater network of embassies and consulates, but that is not easy in the current circumstances.

There could be a reduction in numbers in some parts of the public administration and those concerned could be used to enlarge the trade and diplomatic network. This is essential. I note that there were exchanges between the Tánaiste, Deputy Crowe and me during Question Time in the Dáil on Africa and the potential for trade there. There are many new regions with potential for trade and the diplomatic network must be enhanced with additional personnel from within the existing public service numbers. This could and should be done and while it would not be a simple matter, this area requires additional capacity in personnel.

In response to Mr. Maguire, I am not particularly concerned about where Irish people go on holidays. As I would prefer them to stay at home in Ireland, I will not encourage them to go to any other part of the world. My preference is for them to stay within the Thirty-two Counties and, were they to travel to stay in the south of Ulster, all the better.

In what areas in particular does Mr. Maguire discern an immediate potential for increased trade and for the sale of products to the Arab region? Do particular areas stand out in which Ireland has the capacity and the right product to sell to potential new markets in that region? I again compliment Mr. Maguire on his work, which, as he noted, goes back to 1972. Over the years, he has involved members of the political process in visiting the region in delegations and so on and his work in that regard is to be admired and complimented.

Mr. Louis Maguire

There are one or two areas in particular. For example, during a recent meeting with the Algerian ambassador in London, he suggested that Ireland should open a trade office in Algeria and he would reciprocate by opening a trade office in Dublin. He told me that while he was aware things were not 100% in Ireland, one person could run such an office and there would at least be someone on the ground who could keep people here advised. Morocco is another place with which our trade is improving and there is vast potential there, as is the case in Tunisia as well. Libya is coming back. While we had great trade with Libya up to last year, it died off for a while, but I am glad to state it is back again. I acknowledge the Deputy's point that Ireland cannot afford to have embassies in every country, but surely we can afford to have a one-person trade office. If we cannot afford that, we may as well pull down the curtains.

Deputy Brendan Smith

To Mr. Maguire's knowledge, are representatives of agencies such as Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland stationed in some of these locations? Kerrygold has a huge presence in Algeria that has been growing in recent years, which is good.

Mr. Louis Maguire

Absolutely.

Deputy Brendan Smith

The concept of the Ireland office is the proper template. Once the person concerned is representing the interests of this country, it does not matter whether he or she is in Enterprise Ireland, the IDA or the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Mr. Louis Maguire

Mr. John Burke from Enterprise Ireland, who lives in either Paris or Madrid, covers Algeria. In fairness to the man, he can only do so much. Were he to go there for two or three days, he might be there for the wrong two or three days.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome Mr. Maguire to the meeting. The worst thing that could happen would be for the embassy from which one sought a visa to be located in a country of which one's own country was a former colony. I can envisage all sorts of difficulties arising, depending on where one was obliged to apply for a visa. For example, in the case of Madrid, the Spanish state formerly had colonies in parts of the Arab world, which would send the wrong signal as one would almost be going down the same path. On foot of the budget, the amount of money available for this area is being cut back by approximately 2%. This does not simply pertain to the Arab world, as one could make the same comparison regarding difficulties in the United States. For instance, with regard to Silicon Valley, 40% of trade between the United States and Ireland comes from one particular region and the argument would be that one must increase the number of staff located there. During the aforementioned Question Time exchanges with the Tánaiste, we noted that in the course of the Presidency of the Council of the European Union, the Government intends to recall a large number of staff at a time when it would be desirable for exports to be increasing, not decreasing, given the problems with the local economy. While attempts are being made to save money by bringing back staff, in the long term we probably are losing out. If running the six-month Presidency results in a drop-off of trade with these countries, it will be a major difficulty. While this is probably a policy decision that must be made, I seek Mr. Maguire's views in this regard.

Mr. Maguire made reference to the barriers posed by visas, but what other barriers exist in respect of trade? Are there difficulties with Irish entrepreneurs travelling to that part of the world, in which there clearly are problems? For example, Mr. Maguire mentioned Libya, where it appears that major difficulties persist on the ground. There also are difficulties with regard to Bahrain, which members of this joint committee have raised, as well as having discussions on the sectarian nature of that state, in which one religion has clearly been the subject of discrimination. Do these issues also create problems by constituting barriers to trade? Moreover, do they form moral barriers to trading with some countries which clearly have bad human rights records? Mr. Maguire mentioned travelling to Iraq, presumably during the period of Saddam Hussein's rule. Do regimes, such as that headed by Gaddafi and some of the other dictators in the region, also pose problems? I note there were problems in the past regarding insurance for products and so on. For example, there were problems with regard to the transportation of beef. Do these problems persist today? What are the main products being exported to the region? In the main, are they related to food and agribusiness? Overall, I note the biggest export sector appears to be chemicals and related products. Is the position similar for this region? Given the region's instability, could Ireland get favourable status in respect of access to oil and so on? Has consideration ever been given to putting in place a bartering system with some countries involving food for oil or whatever?

Mr. Louis Maguire

One must be careful about what one reads in the press about the Arab world. The press tends to blow things out of all proportion. I have been in the Middle East at times when there have been reports in Ireland of bombings, shootings and so on. However, it does not always happen. It happens in certain regions, just as one need not go too far to find shootings taking place in certain regions of one's own country. However, there are no barriers to Irish goods. The Deputy mentioned some of the products that Ireland is exporting. During the 1970s and 1980s, Ireland's main export was beef. At the time, we sold all our beef to Britain, but when it suddenly received a cheap offer from Argentina it decided to stop buying Irish beef overnight. This was a serious problem for all farmers throughout the country, and I attended a meeting for which farmers sent their representatives to Dublin. To give members an idea of how easy it is to overcome a problem, I got on a plane and went to Libya.

I came back with an order for 1,000 cattle, which I gave to the late Mark Clinton, who was Minister for Agriculture at the time. I was not away for more than a week, so one can get over obstacles very easily. There is scope for a lot more than beef, although beef is coming back now. We are into Saudi Arabia in a pretty big way with beef, as well as the United Arab Emirates.

Only last week, I was approached by one of the beef exporters who said he would like to get into Qatar. I went to London with him and we saw the ambassador there who said he would have the ban lifted. There had been a ban in place for many years since the time of the BSE outbreak in England. I brought this gentleman to meet the ambassador and he put his case. Last Saturday night, I had a phone call from the ambassador to say that the ban had been lifted and he was sending people here early in the new year to buy Irish beef.

The opportunities are there. As I have said a thousand times, the door is open for anyone from Ireland who wants to sell anything. I do not know if that answers the Deputy's question.

Deputy Seán Crowe

It does to some extent, but are there difficulties with some countries' regimes? Is the Joint Arab-Irish Chamber of Commerce propping up those regimes by getting involved in trade with them, or are they being opened up to the idea or prospect of greater democracy, including human rights, in the region by continuing that trade? That is one of the difficulties involved in trading with some of those countries. For instance, the Iranian ambassador, when he attended this committee, spoke about the ban being lifted there. There does not seem to be any credible reason Irish beef should not be exported around the world, but are they live exports? I know there have been difficulties in the past with that aspect, including how the animals are killed. Much of the beef in Iran is currently coming from South American countries, but Irish middle-men are bringing it in. Is there a problem with the financial embargo on trade with Iran? We all accept there is huge potential but we need to find out what to do as a country in that regard. Mr. Maguire mentioned ambassadors, but is there more involved than that? What simple steps could be taken to try to open up that region?

Mr. Louis Maguire

When one goes to any of those countries, one does not get involved in human rights issues. We go there for trade. I have regularly visited 14 Arab countries over the last 40 years. As regards human rights, I have never come across anything. There may be things I do not see - I admit that - but generally speaking the Arab people are peaceful. They have their own rules, laws and religions, which we must respect. One does not get involved in that when one is exporting or trying to trade with them. The Deputy need have no worries on that score.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank Mr. Maguire for coming to talk to us. It is a long time since I first met him - nearly 40 years ago.

Mr. Louis Maguire

Am I that old?

Deputy Eric Byrne

It was a Mr. Louis J. Maguire that we were familiar with.

Mr. Louis Maguire

That is me.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is correct. I concur with the concept of what Mr. Maguire is saying. We frequently table parliamentary questions to all Departments concerning trade and interaction with African and Middle Eastern countries. There is great scope for extending business there, particularly as countries develop. As they progress the scope is much greater. My colleagues and I have asked various Ministers to try to maximise their contacts with all foreign countries with a view to expanding our business with them and increasing our exports. In addition, we should encourage their people to come here as tourists, as well as travelling abroad as tourists ourselves. With no disrespect to my colleague Deputy Brendan Smith, if we all stayed at home there would be no tourism. We cannot have that either. We need to avail of every possible opportunity and identify the products that are most likely to gain a marketing foothold in the Middle East. Mr. Maguire has already pointed out quite a number of those products. Suffice it to say that we would all concur with that concept.

We must have regard to human rights issues also. It is part and parcel of Government policy to try to ensure that the countries with which we have direct dealings recognise that we would like them to come into line and realise that human rights abuses are no longer acceptable. We must make progress in that area as well.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I thank Mr. Maguire for his interesting contribution. I do not know that trade and human rights always go together because human rights can sometimes be ignored when it comes to doing business. If we said we would trade only with countries that have a perfect human rights record, however, I do not think we would be left trading with anybody. I would have grave reservations about trading with America, for example, when one sees some of the human rights abuses there. None the less, we can lead by example. I hope Irish businessmen are ethical in their approach when signing trade agreements. There are quite a number of organisations, which I support, that want country-by-country auditing so that taxes are paid in the countries in which they should be paid. In that way we can try to eliminate tax avoidance and tax evasion.

As Mr. Maguire said, there is a potential there, but it is disappointing that it is not being addressed meaningfully. We should examine a more strategic use of our ambassadors overall.

The issues of visas and bureaucracy were raised, but is Mr. Maguire not talking to the people who can advance what he is trying to do? He said that Irish companies are more welcome in the Arab world than anywhere else, but I wonder why. Are there particular reasons for that? I would be interested to hear Mr. Maguire's point of view.

Mr. Louis Maguire

As regards Deputy O'Sullivan's last question, they feel we have gone through the same thing as them, in that we did not get our freedom for many years and they were subjected to similar regimes. They think they have a lot in common with us. If one goes back in history, 800 years ago some of the pirates from north Africa and the Arab world sailed up the Bay of Biscay to loot in England and Ireland. When they got to Ireland they were so impressed that they got rid of their boats and settled down in the west of Ireland.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Did they not come to Dublin?

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

They were certainly involved in the sack of Baltimore. I do not think they were too welcome in west Cork because they took a lot of the population back to Algeria with them.

Mr. Louis Maguire

I know about that end of it, which was not pleasant.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I welcome Mr. Maguire. I asked him if he was the same person as Mr. Louis J. Maguire, but the "J" has been dropped from his name. Those of us who were around 40 years ago remember that Louis J. Maguire was a household name.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

That is right. Was he in Terenure?

Mr. Louis Maguire

I was in Terenure and Rathmines.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Mr. Maguire is more than welcome on the basis that anybody working with the Joint Arab-Irish Chamber of Commerce is working on behalf of Ireland. His contribution during the years has been more than welcomed and, I hope, applauded.

I have some difficulty with the concepts articulated. Mr. Maguire keeps referring to the Arab world. I still do not have an understanding of what constitutes the Arab world. There are 20 countries listed. They might very well be Arab countries, but they are certainly diverse in their own right. At least eight, if not ten, are in Africa, in respect of which the Government has a strategy. Is Mr. Maguire familiar with this strategy? If he has negative comments to make, we would like to hear them.

Mr. Maguire hit all of the key issues of concern to the committee. He raised the visa issue. We are blue in the face trying to address it. He also mentioned the lack of embassies in the Arab world and Africa. Tragically, as he can appreciate, we are closing our embassies. Three closed recently. The fact that we have only three ambassadors in the Arab world shows we are under-represented. We cannot compete with the Norwegians who have three, four or five times that number.

Mr. Louis Maguire

And the French.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Mr. Maguire mentioned another key issue, that of flights for people who wish to travel or holiday abroad but also in the context of the promotion of trade and commerce. I note that he specialises in the area of commercial, industrial, tourism and financial relations between Arab countries. I have a couple of questions in that regard. This is based on ignorance more than on anything else. What is it about the Arab world and banking? Is there a particular banking system used in the Arab world that is not quite the same as the western capitalist one and does it prove to be a problem?

Of the countries listed, we do remarkably well in Oman, for example. We are developing great relationships with many of these Arab countries in terms of the provision of educational facilities. Students from these countries come to Ireland to undertake their educational training. In fact, I understand the Omanis will have a marching band in the next St. Patrick's Day parade, which is a sign of how well we are bonding. There are many Saudi Arabian students here whom I meet on a regular basis. There have also been unsurpassed developments in such a short period of time in the case of the United Arab Emirates.

Mr Maguire has pointed out that we are doing a lot of good with the Arab world, with which we have an interesting bond. We bond well with the Arabs. It probably has to do with our history. I personally thank Mr. Maguire for his life-long involvement in developing relationships because in days past matters would have been different. I wish him the best of luck in his ongoing work and congratulate the 12 Arab members of the board.

Mr. Louis Maguire

Deputy Eric Byrne mentioned the African countries in the Arab world. For instance, the Maghreb - Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria - is in north Africa, but these are Arab countries. The Deputy is correct in one way, but the people of these countries prefer to be called Arabs.

As regards banking, from our point of view there is no problem in getting paid, if that is what the Deputy is worried about. For exporters, the banking system is first class. As a matter of fact, in parts of the Arab world the banking system was set up by a group which had offices on the north side on the city, the name of which I forget. It did very well and made a fortune in providing a banking system in the Middle East where I used meet its representatives at the time.

Are there other points the Deputy wishes to cover?

Deputy Eric Byrne

On banking, I had personal experience of dealing with a Muslim here who stated he could not borrow from a bank because his religion did not permit him to pay interest.

Mr. Louis Maguire

That is true.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Is there a different kind of banking system in place?

Mr. Louis Maguire

I do not understand the banking system in place. I thought the Deputy was worried about people being paid for exports.

Deputy Eric Byrne

No. They are trustworthy people.

Mr. Louis Maguire

They are most trustworthy. There was talk of them setting up a bank here.

Deputy Eric Byrne

That is correct.

Mr. Louis Maguire

Approximately two years ago they approached me and I got on to certain people, but there did not seem to be an appetite for it. I would be happy to see some of the wealthier countries buying one of our banks to get it back on its feet. Is there anything else?

Deputy Eric Byrne

No.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I thank Mr. Maguire. I found what he had to say interesting and it is nice to see him again.

Mr. Louis Maguire

I am one of the Deputy's constituents.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I will not say how many years it is since I last saw him.

Mr. Louis Maguire

It is 40 years.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

That is a long time.

I was interested in what Mr. Maguire had to state about visas. My colleague is correct in that we had a restrictive regime in place. For a while I was involved in trying to open up the visa regime between Ireland and China and Asia generally. The Government has made it much easier, for instance, for Chinese people to get visas. That happened largely as a result of a concentrated and targeted campaign conducted by interests in Ireland, including, for instance, the language schools which operate a big business, particularly involving students from China, and also tour operators which are trying to bring groups into Ireland but which are finding it almost impossible to get visa. One had to travel thousands of miles in order to a get visa, which was nonsense. In this regard, I think Mr. Maguire is speaking primarily about the north African Arab countries-----

Mr. Louis Maguire

The whole of the Arab world.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

Apart from Mr. Maguire's group, is there any other group in Ireland which is lobbying the Minister for Justice and Equality on the issue? It seems there must be a critical mass, both from a trade and tourism perspective, to secure air connections. Airlines will operate wherever there is a demand for their services. Tourism traffic alone will not sustain an airline. One must also have a demand from the business community. What about businesses here? If Mr. Maguire can demonstrate to the Department that there is a loss of business and export opportunities as a result of a regime that makes it difficult to get visas, it would be open to considering the matter. What is the situation in reverse? If Irish people want to travel to any of the Arab countries, what is required of them in terms of having a visa? Are there difficulties in that regard?

Mr. Louis Maguire

There are no difficulties. They all have embassies in London from where one must obtain a visa. For instance, I receive telephone calls every day from persons looking for a visa to travel to Tunisia, but they are wasted telephone calls because Irish people do not need a visa.

As regards lobbying, I wrote to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, nine months ago and I received a reply by return post. On the issue of visas, he stated it was not his Department that was involved------

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

It is the Department of Justice and Equality.

Mr. Louis Maguire

-----but that he would pass it on to somebody else, where it died.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

It is our job then.

Chairman

The issue of visas forms part of our programme and a report we are preparing. It stems from the Global Economic Forum. In 2013 it will be part of our work programme, particularly in the context of trade. We will have officials from the Department of Justice and Equality before the committee in that regard also.

Senator David Norris

I welcome Mr. Maguire. Unfortunately I did not hear his initial presentation as I was speaking and voting in the Seanad, and I will have to return to the Chamber to do the same again in a few minutes. I was here when he made a remark to the effect that we need not concern ourselves about human rights and that he has never seen abuses. However, they are widespread and they are widely known. I say this as somebody who voted against the beef deals, including perhaps some that Mr. Maguire helped to negotiate, with Saddam Hussein's Iraq several years ago. As Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan pointed out, we have to live in a practical and realistic world, but I share her concern about the possible rebalancing of this committee to give greater prominence to trade and downgrade human rights.

As one of the only Members to vote against the beef deal, the case of Iraq was instructive to me. While it was admitted on the Government benches that what I did may have been the moral response, I was asked rhetorically whether Ireland could afford it. As I am sure Mr. Maguire knows only too well, what actually happened was that war broke out and Saddam Hussein's Government welshed on the payments. The Irish taxpayer was forced to pick up the bill under the export credit guarantee scheme. We did the immoral thing and we paid through the nose for it. I think the amount paid out was approximately €79 million.

In respect of Libya, it has emerged in the past week that the British Government has been forced to pay £2.2 million to Mr. Sami al-Saadi, who was kidnapped by the Americans with the collusion of British intelligence services, taken to Libya and severely tortured. His family, including his pregnant wife, were also kidnapped and brought to Libya. They were deeply shocked by this. To show these defilements of human rights are not uniquely an Arab phenomenon, the head of MI6, who is also a tub-thumping Christian, congratulated the then head of intelligence in Libya on the delivery of the "cargo" and wrote that while "I know I did not pay for the air cargo", British intelligence had ensured a safe arrival. That is an appalling sentiment to express in regard to human beings who were illegally kidnapped - the Americans used the euphemism of "extraordinary rendition".

I am making no differentiation between the Arab world and the Western world because both have been complicit in the violation of human rights. My function as a member of this committee is to raise these issues. I have raised violations of human rights by Arab regimes and the Israelis. I am not interested in Jewish rights, gay rights, women's rights or Palestinian rights; I am interested in human rights. I understand that people in the business world feel they have to make these contacts and it is difficult to raise ethical issues when this country is in such a parlous state. This afternoon the Seanad will be discussing the Social Welfare Bill 2012, which makes savage cuts to carers' benefits and other areas. I hope the Seanad will oppose the Bill and return it to the Government for further consideration. I understand the difficulty in raising these issues when people are bleeding in our country but if the business is advantageous to others they will be unlikely to reject it if concerns are raised in a polite way and if our ethical position is presented, if we believe in it. The Islamic countries are usually lacking in diffidence when presenting their views of morality. We should not be completely tongue-tied. My concern is for human rights generally and is not directed at Arabs specifically. I would equally criticise the United States of America for the dehumanising effect of drone attacks, which are horrible. We would be less than human if we shed this aspect of the committee's work, which I regard as equally important. If this was only a committee on foreign trade I would not bother to attend its meetings. I hope I have registered my concerns in a way that is not offensive.

Chairman

I remind Senator Norris that the committee has spent as much, if not more, time dealing with issues of human rights than with issues of trade over the last several months.

Senator David Norris

I appreciate that.

Chairman

Trade has not dominated our agenda and, in fact, some people are saying we are not doing enough on trade matters. It is important to correct the Senator in that regard.

Mr. Louis Maguire

In regard to trading with Iraq, I am responsible for that, and may God forgive me if that is the Senator's attitude. When I went to Iraq in 1973 there was no trade with Ireland. I met the various ministers who had power to give orders in those days and started trade in 1973. We traded very well from 1973 until the war broke out in 1988. Our sales to Iraq increased from nil in 1973 to £800 million in 1988. We could have lost that on a point of principle, or whatever else one might call it, because of what certain leaders did, but nations cannot be held responsible for that.

Senator David Norris

My objection was to the sale of beef to the army. We did pay for it. We made nothing out of it because we were stung.

Mr. Louis Maguire

I do not get involved in human rights and I have seen no evidence of human rights issues in my travels through the Middle East. I have visited 14 countries and hope to visit another one in the near future. I am sorry the Senator feels this way, but we may be mixing up two issues. I am looking at the business end and he is looking at human rights. I know where he coming from but I hope he also understands my position. I am seeking to salvage something for this country. If members know of any company, whether small, medium or large, that wants to export its products to the Middle East, I ask them to approach the Joint Arab-Irish Chamber of Commerce at 60 Merrion Square. We will provide every assistance we can.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Maguire for his contribution. I am sure he and Senator Norris will agree to differ. We regard human rights as extremely important, but trade is also extremely important. As Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan noted, if we took account of human rights all the time we would never trade with anybody. This committee will continue to monitor human rights and highlight problems where they arise, but it is also important that we sell ourselves to the outside world and particularly the Arab world. The chamber is doing a good job in this regard and the Arab world is an interesting place with which to trade. There are clear opportunities in the region. Several ministerial visits have been made to the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and other countries in the region, and these trade missions will continue. I understand the Taoiseach has also received several invitations to travel to the Arab world. I wish Mr. Maguire and his colleagues a happy Christmas.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.30 p.m. and adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday, 17 January 2013.