Joint Committee on Gender Equality debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2022

Recommendations of the Report of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputy Bríd Smith.

Members have the option of being physically present in the committee room or joining the meeting via MS Teams from their Leinster House offices but may not participate from outside the parliamentary precincts. I ask members joining on MS Teams to mute their microphones when not making a contribution and to use the raise hand function to indicate. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility in respect of protection against the risk of contracting Covid-19.

Today we are considering the implementation of the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality generally. I warmly welcome the Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, and thank him for giving his time to join the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality. We are conscious of the demands on his time and are grateful to him for attending. I also welcome the officials accompanying the Taoiseach, Ms Elizabeth Canavan, assistant secretary at the Department of the Taoiseach, Mr. Barry Vaughan, principal officer at the Department of the Taoiseach, and Ms Jane Anne Duffy, principal officer at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Before we begin, I must read an important notice on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity in such a way as to make them identifiable.

Before I invite the Taoiseach to give his opening statement, I note we have been working on the 45 recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality for the past few months. We are grateful to the citizens for all of the work they put in and to Dr. Catherine Day and her team for chairing the assembly. Our work is focused on the practical implementation of the recommendations. We will hold a number of public hearings over the next two to three weeks and will then hold private meetings to deliberate on our final report which we hope to present to the Taoiseach and the Government by the start of December.

I now invite the Taoiseach to give his opening statement before opening the floor to members for questions and answers.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation and am delighted to take up the opportunity.

Gender equality is a key priority for this Government and if we are to make meaningful advances in gender equality, it will require a broad and inclusive approach. The catalyst for inviting me today is of course the admirable work carried out by the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality and the subsequent report and associated recommendations on this issue, guided by the excellent chairing of Dr. Catherine Day, whom I would like to acknowledge and thank.

The report is a comprehensive assessment of the issues at play in considering gender equality across multiple domains including constitutional change; care; social protection; leadership in politics, public life and the workplace; norms, stereotypes and education; pay and workplace conditions; domestic, sexual and gender-based violence; and gender equality in law and policy. As the committee is aware, these are all complex areas and I will not be able to cover all relevant developments in each of them, but I will highlight some of the advances that have been made in specific issues of concern.

One important issue the citizens' assembly report called attention to is the need to facilitate women to participate and assume leadership positions in politics, public life and the workplace. It is incumbent on the Government, and indeed all of us in politics, within our parties or groups, to do our utmost to ensure women do not face unnecessary barriers to their full participation. In negotiating and agreeing the current programme for Government, this was an important issue for all three parties. In the programme for Government, we pledged, among other things, to empower local authorities to encourage improved gender and ethnic mix in local elections; require local authorities to be more flexible with meeting times and to use remote working technologies and flexible work practices to support councillors with parenting or caring responsibilities, including childcare, and reduce travel times and absences from work; and examine further mechanisms informed by international best practice to encourage political parties to select more women for the 2024 local elections. As we approach the half way point in this Government’s mandate we are making good progress in this area.

The Government has published the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 to transpose the remaining elements of the EU work-life balance directive including a right to request flexible working within the terms of the directive and an entitlement to leave for medical care purposes. This legislation will also fulfil a long-standing Government commitment to extend the entitlement to breastfeeding breaks under the Maternity Protection Acts to two years.

In addition, earlier this year, the Government gave approval to draft a general scheme to grant an entitlement of maternity leave to councillors. The scheme offers the choice to appoint an individual as a temporary substitute in the place of a councillor who takes a period of maternity-related absence or is absent due to illness. We know female councillors have felt pressure to turn up to important votes or debates, when they needed to be at home caring for a new baby. It is not credible maternity leave if you cannot fully switch off from your work.

An extension in July this year has brought the entitlement to parent's leave and benefit to seven weeks for each eligible parent to be taken within the first two years of a child’s life or adoptive placement. The Government has also committed to introducing domestic violence leave. This leave will create a valuable support for victims of domestic violence to take the time they need to access supports and to maintain their employment.

Another initiative we have brought forward, which has good potential in terms of building capacity and encouraging more women into public life, is the All Island Women’s Forum established with the support of the shared island unit I established within the Department of the Taoiseach. I want to acknowledge and thank the National Women’s Council of Ireland for its active support in making that happen and in making it the catalyst I am certain it can be. Indeed, it has also been an important partner in our work on improving female participation in the 2024 local elections and in our free contraception initiative.

Another important area addressed within the citizens’ assembly report was on childcare and workers in the sector; more specifically, making the former more affordable and improving the terms and conditions of the latter. Four years ago, annual State investment in early learning and childcare stood at €485 million.

Just three weeks ago, my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy McGrath, announced that budget 2023 would allocate €1.025 billion to early learning and childcare.

The fact that the target of spending €1 billion on this area by 2028 was exceeded five years ahead of schedule is a demonstration, I hope, of the value this Government places on early learning and childcare and a recognition of the benefits it confers to children and their families, society and the economy.

On 15 September 2022, the first ever employment regulation orders for the early years services sector came into effect, setting new minimum hourly rates of pay for various roles in the early years services sector. The orders are supported by our core funding scheme, which commenced on 15 September this year and will see increases in funding to early learning and childcare services to support improvements in staff wages, alongside a commitment to freezing parental fees. It is estimated that almost three quarters of those working in the sector will see their wages rise as a result of the employment regulation orders, with the wages of half of all employees in the sector expected to rise by 10% or more and the wages of 20% of employees expected to rise by 20% or more. It is interesting that those involved in social partnership and the social partners see the development of the employment regulation orders as one of the most significant things to happen in recent times in respect of childcare, in particular, and standards of conditions in childcare.

While no single one of these initiatives will deal with all the issues, cumulatively they amount to tangible and meaningful progress. As the committee knows, another important aspect of the citizens’ assembly was examining the gender equality principle in law and policy. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is currently undertaking a review of the equality Acts. This review aims to examine the functioning of the Acts and their effectiveness in combating discrimination and promoting equality. I know the committee has been actively engaged on the citizens’ assembly recommendations for constitutional change. This is a complex area and the position paper developed by this committee as part of its interim report is very welcome and will help to inform the development of Government proposals in partnership with the Oireachtas. I know the specific proposals are being considered by the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, at present and all the various complexities notwithstanding the Government is committed to holding a referendum on Article 41.2 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.

This Government is also genuinely committed to advancing measures that assist in developing and promoting gender equality through the kinds of measures and reforms I have mentioned in this brief statement. There is much more to talk about in the wide-ranging citizens’ assembly report and I hope that we can explore some of the issues more fully now in our discussion. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Chairman

Go raibh maith agat, Taoiseach. Thank you for the opening statement. A number of colleagues have already indicated and I see many more. In order to facilitate everyone getting in in the time available, exchanges will be limited to six minutes per question and answer. I ask everyone to adhere to that.

I was glad to hear the Taoiseach commit to holding a referendum on Article 41, but the committee recommended in its interim report that a referendum be held in 2023, next year, to give effect to recommendations Nos. 1 to 3. Colleagues may wish to explore that issue further with him. We will certainly be returning to it in our final report.

The colleagues who indicated first were Deputy Cronin, Senator Warfield and Senator Pauline O'Reilly. After that, I will call Deputies Hourigan, Cannon, Carroll MacNeill, McAuliffe and Clarke.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Go raibh maith agat. I welcome the Taoiseach to our committee. The Taoiseach's Department is responsible for the third strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence implementation plan. That is a whole-of-government approach across Secretaries General and there is meant to be a dedicated secretariat in the Taoiseach's Department. Last week, we raised the proof aspect of domestic violence leave with IBEC and SIPTU. Is the Taoiseach in favour of it? If he is not, why did the Minister responsible for equality, Deputy O'Gorman, have in his report that employers should retain the request for reasonable proof? Who defines "reasonable"? What defines "proof"? How do you define a psychological injury? Is it two points for a bruise or four points for breaking the skin? I feel sick even talking like that because it is sick that we would expect a woman or man who has suffered domestic violence to provide proof for the paltry five days that is being proposed.

The Taoiseach is over a Government that is dealing with legacy issues on how this State has treated women. It brings us back to the dark days when women had to suffer extra social scrutiny about whether they could be trusted or not. I am deeply uncomfortable with the proof aspect. I will be talking on the work-life balance Bill this afternoon and I know this has not made it into the Bill. I believe it is the Minister's intention to introduce it on Committee Stage. I hope that after the reaction IBEC got last week, that will not happen. I would like the Taoiseach's comments on that matter.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is no intention to bring in the requirement for proof. I said this in the Dáil yesterday-----

Deputy Réada Cronin

It was in the Minister's report.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government will bring forward Committee Stage amendments to the work-life balance Bill. It will provide for five days' domestic violence leave. It is modelled on existing force majeure provisions in the Parental Leave Act 1998. It is not intended that a victim would be required to provide proof of domestic violence while availing-----

Deputy Réada Cronin

Has the Taoiseach spoken to the Minister about it?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am the Taoiseach of the Government. I am telling the Deputy that is it not the intention to do that.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Good.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government is very clear on this. I have been very clear in the Oireachtas on this. I was surprised at the IBEC position.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Was the Taoiseach surprised at the Minister's position?

Chairman

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I came here in good faith, not to get into a sort of partisan position. We want to arrive at conclusions that are in the best interests of women, particularly in the application of this. It is not the intention to require proof. As I said to the Deputy's colleague yesterday in the Dáil, when a woman or man comes forward to an employer in respect of seeking domestic violence leave, it is not a cross-examination they require; it is consideration, help, assistance and the provision of the leave. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth will be tendering for expert advice to come forward to create templates and provide guidance for employers on how to deal with this. This is about culture and people being properly equipped to deal with situations like this, which will emerge. It is groundbreaking that we are bringing in domestic violence leave. It is the first time any Government has ever done this. That in itself is a positive; that is the way I would approach this. It is not the Government's view that the victim would be required to provide proof of domestic violence when availing of the leave. I cannot be clearer than that. I discussed this with officials in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth before this meeting.

Chairman

Thank you for the clarity, Taoiseach.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Nor do I think it would be appropriate.

Deputy Réada Cronin

On the five days' domestic violence leave, Sinn Féin has a Bill before the House brought by Deputies McDonald and O'Reilly proposing a ten-day domestic violence leave, which is already in operation in many universities and large companies like Vodafone and several other companies. Are we now going to ask universities in receipt of public funds to reduce their ten-day domestic violence leave to five days?

Deputy Micheál Martin

No. It is open to any employer to go beyond the five days. It was the Minister, Deputy Harris, I think, who took the initiative in respect of the third level sector regarding the ten-day leave. These matters are kept under review. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth looked internationally at how this has worked out in different jurisdictions. The average sought in Australia was three days, as it turned out. As I said, this is the first time this measure has been introduced. It is important we get it through and I have no doubt we will do so. The facility will always be there to extend that, as it is for various provisions. It is open to employers and State employers to go beyond the five days as part of the policy of any given employer. That is what has happened in the third level sector.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I welcome the Taoiseach here to the committee and I thank him for coming.

I will pick up on the five days statutory paid leave entitlement for domestic violence. It is essentially Government policy, given that the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has written to all universities asking them to introduce ten days paid leave for victims and survivors of domestic abuse. The main universities have agreed to that. Fianna Fáil introduced a Bill in 2018 that had ten days statutory leave. Statutory leave in the North of Ireland is ten days leave. It was initiated by Green Party MLAs and that is now law in the North. Surely we should harmonise our all-island policy and introduce ten days leave in legislation, as the Taoiseach's party proposed in 2018.

The Taoiseach

First, this is a statutory minimum. We are providing in law for a statutory minimum domestic violence leave of five days. There is a two-year review in the legislation. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has gone ahead already in terms of third level and said ten days. It is open to employers to go beyond the statutory minimum. As I say, when this goes into the Oireachtas, the Minister will take on board the views of Members of the Oireachtas and we will take it from there.

It is a good measure to bring this in. The international evidence is showing, as I said, so far, in terms of what the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth have looked at, that three days was the norm in Australia. Five days is being provided as a statutory minimum in legislation.

There will be a need for cultural changes. We can see that in some of the submissions that have been made and that have been referenced, in terms of the IBEC submission etc., and that of the Irish Small and Medium Employers, ISME, and others. Clearly, there needs to be further work done in terms of the broader issue and in ensuring that this is brought through in all sectors and accelerated without any resistance, opposition or misguided ideas around it.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Other members of the committee will raise the referendum issue. The Taoiseach will appreciate there is some frustration among women and people who have been campaigning for this referendum to take place at the delays that have faced that referendum. We have provided the Taoiseach with an interim report for the purpose of getting on with the matter as quickly as possible. Can the Taoiseach give us a commitment that it will come to Cabinet in the coming weeks and that we can have a referendum in 2023, as the committee's interim report called for?

The Taoiseach

My understanding was that the committee must do a full report on the constitutional position and the Government would obviously await the fuller consideration by this committee. I put this out there, as I spoke to the Chair beforehand. My experience of the eighth amendment is that the Oireachtas committee looked at that specific recommendation from a citizens' assembly, amended it to a certain extent within the committee, did not have unanimity in the committee, but a majority of the committee was able to vote positively for the formula of words that eventually became the proposition that was put to the people and one had a degree of Oireachtas support around it.

My preference would be that one would have as great a degree of Oireachtas consensus as possible around the wording on this. That could be achieved through this committee because I understand the committee has some further work. I have looked at the interim report and that tells me it is complex. Personally, the more simply we keep it, the better. From a constitutional perspective, we must be mindful of existing jurisprudence on these issues. There are two fundamental ways of evolving a constitution: through judicial interpretation, which has been one of the more radical features of the Constitution since 1937, which is understated but which has been the great revolution in terms of evolving constitutional rights; and amendment by the people in the form of a referendum. My understanding is the committee's work may be completed by the end of the year. Therefore, if the committee can bring a definitive conclusion and certainty from a constitutional perspective to the proposals, the Government would be anxious to progress this in 2023.

I am reluctant to give a specific timeline. There are a number of elements to this. We must get it right, but also we must give time to the Referendum Commission. Historically, the Referendum Commission gets annoyed when it is shoehorned into a particular narrow timeframe. It has obligations, in terms of timelines in presenting the proposals and giving full information to the people. That is the only qualification I would put in.

I would be anxious to get on with it as quickly as we possibly can. Various Oireachtas committees have looked at this in the past and it has not been proceeded with.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I have seconds remaining. Others will pick up on that.

It is not a question, but a comment. I commend the Taoiseach on the important interventions he has made around transgender rights and empathy for trans folks. I welcome those. I thank the Taoiseach for them. I remind the Taoiseach that trans citizens and residents still travel abroad, for instance, to Poland, for healthcare and our 16 and 17-year-olds are still waiting for recognition.

Chairman

I call Senator Pauline O'Reilly, who is the Vice Chair of this committee.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Chair and welcome the Taoiseach to the committee today.

I would like to start off by talking about the revelations within the Citizens' Assembly. It was a unique time because it was during the pandemic. Much of the work took place online. We have heard from some of those who were involved in it and that gave a good footing for this committee.

Something that surprised many people was the amount of references there are to care in this Citizens' Assembly report and in the recommendations. Prior to the pandemic, people would not have recognised that importance of well-being, possibly to the extent that this Citizens' Assembly did.

It is important to point out in relation to recommendations 1 to 3, inclusive, that this is a different referendum from the referendums that were being spoken about previously and it is not a case that people have been waiting for this referendum and now we have to get on with it. Previously, it was removing reference to the place of a woman in the home whereas now it is about putting into the Constitution a reference to the importance of care work. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's thoughts on that. The Green Party was probably the only party that did not want to see the reference removed in its entirety, but wanted it changed to be something that was more reflective of the caring nature and value of the work done by women and men and those of all genders in the home and changed to be something which did not leave all of the caring responsibilities with one particular gender.

The other point that I wanted to raise with the Taoiseach is the question of leadership, which we have discussed in detail in this committee and had excellent witnesses before us. With quotas, we have not seen a change in the numbers of women being elected. I have a deep concern that some of the parties are not putting women into electable seats sometimes and we need to call on political parties to do more. It is not enough that we have, as we will have, a necessity to have 40% women on the ticket if we only return half of that into the Dáil. That is not good enough.

On my position, I am chair of my party. We are looking to get women, but we also need to make sure that it is not only putting women down on paper but dealing with what it takes to get women over the line. One suggestion was that we look perhaps at something like what the Taoiseach had done, which was to put in mainly women when it came to the Taoiseach's nominees for the Seanad. That really shifted the balance in the Seanad. We now have 40% women in the Seanad. It means that we bring up many issues that relate to women's lives that probably do not come up in the Dáil to the same extent. Let us be innovative about it but let us also push back on the political parties to do more to get women over the line.

The Taoiseach

I would make two points. On the constitutional point, I accept the general view that it cannot be simple deletion and that part of the amendment should involve care.

The devil is in the detail and the balance between the constitutional, the Executive and the Parliament and what functions fall to Parliament and to the Executive to develop and implement. I recall being involved in the Disability Acts in the 2000s and the EPSEN Acts as a Minister for Health. I would have been an advocate on the rights side of it. In terms of what constituted even a disability, for example, healthcare people said it could go to the hip or it could go to what we might consider normal health stuff. If we put something into the Constitution, all sorts of interpretations can flow and there can be unintended consequences. That is why the work the committee is doing is important in terms of how it is defined. Policy issues should be for the Executive and the Oireachtas. There has to be a written constitutional framework to govern people's basic rights. It will be challenging to get a formula of words that embraces care but I think it is possible. The committee has already done good work on that in its interim report.

On politics and the electoral issue, as a party leader I would be very close to this having overseen two local elections and two general elections. Gender quotas were useful and effective in national elections because at national level each party will look at a five, four or three seat constituency and will say it has the prospect of two here or one here and winning the seat becomes a dominant issue and a primary consideration. What that means is one could restrict candidates and one might run one or two candidates. It becomes very difficult and challenging. However, it worked because we were able to say to the national executive and to the party at large that we wanted to get 30% and we will do it come what may. That meant adding women who may not have gotten through local conventions.

It is totally different at local elections if I am honest. I do not think the quota is as critical at local elections. There are more fundamental issues. We need to look more broadly at other barriers to entry into politics, particularly for women but for men also. We set up the Markievicz commission and brought academics in to chair it and they went through the literature and the four Cs, namely, cash, confidence, childcare and culture. I have said to the chambers of commerce over the last number of years and when I met them as an opposition leader. I do not think the whole of society is focused on politics. What do I mean by that? If somebody working in an industry - it could be pharmaceutical or financial services - put their hand up and said they wanted to be a candidate and to go forward for the city or county council, how would the employer look at that? Is it a career limiting move? I suspect it is. Most party leaders and most HQ organisers will say the panel from which you choose candidates is narrowing all the time. Once most people get out of secondary school or college, they go to work and not all can come out of that work world, so to speak, and go into politics. That is a cultural thing we need to turn around. That is my sense of it. I meet many young people in the youth wings of political parties. They are all enthusiastic and turn up to conferences and everything else. They graduate, get the qualification and go to work in some firm. I get the sense it is a career limiting move if they say that they want to become a councillor.

There are other issues. I outlined some of the moves we have made on maternity leave and all of that. The salary improvements will help. That gives people an option in some instances to opt in full time and to remain at home. That salary issue is important, and could perhaps be enhanced in the future at local government level. The timing of meetings and basic things like that are also important. When I started in local government, we met at 7.30 p.m., which everybody could make. It was brought forward to 5.30 p.m., which I could still make because I was a teacher. The committee meetings were in the afternoon, which not everybody could make. We have to be more flexible around that. There are lots of issues that are deterring people from going into local politics and we probably need to take a fresher look at it. I would support any measures we could bring in that would make the choice easier for people. I find that sometimes one is persuading someone that it will not be as bad as they think it is.

Chairman

We have all had that experience, Taoiseach.

Deputy Micheál Martin

People say that politics is terrible and that it takes up an inordinate amount of time. The pressure of social media is a problem as regards the pressure people feel under now. For the bulk of my political career, we did not have that pressure. It is a real pressure on some people and they take it to heart.

They are a wider set of issues that we need to look at. Apologies if I went on a bit there.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

It was a very interesting contribution. I thank the Taoiseach.

Chairman

There are certainly many recommendations in the citizens’ assembly report on gender equality that go to those issues around social media and the obstacles facing people entering politics. I thank the Taoiseach for that. Deputy Hourigan is next followed by Deputies Cannon, Carroll MacNeill and McAuliffe. I have everyone else listed after that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank the Chair and welcome the Taoiseach. I was delighted to hear the Taoiseach pick up on the programme for Government because something we have been trying to do is flag certain issues that align with the work of the Joint Committee on Gender Equality. I want to use my time to draw his attention to two areas in the programme for Government, which pertain to what we are dealing with at the committee, namely, the section on anti-poverty and social inclusion measures. The first is something I raised with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, when he came to the committee and is around gender and equality budgeting. I know the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance have done excellent work on well-being budgeting which encapsulates gender equality budgeting. The Committee on Budgetary Oversight has also looked at gender budgeting. However, in every budget we are hoping to see a fully tested and gender equality budgeted budget, if that makes sense. We want to see every measure and every policy put forward with sufficient data. What the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, and other Ministers who have appeared before us have said is that they will come to Cabinet with those details but sometimes that detail is not within the public sphere. What is the development in terms of well-being budgets and gender budgeting and making all that information fundamentally a part of budget decision-making and making it legible not just to people in Leinster House but to NGOs which I know would find that incredibly useful? I know it is difficult sometimes in Ireland to get one's hands on enough disaggregated data to make it meaningful in terms of decision-making.

My second question is also on that section and is borne out of some of the discussions around the referendum where we talked a lot about how it interacts with the rights of children and how we recognise marriage and those kind of things. In the programme for Government, we have committed to reform our child maintenance system and address key issues such as calculation, facilitation and enforcement. I know many parents, in particular lone parents, find it difficult to chase maintenance. It is an ongoing issue that the women's caucus has called out. Since we have committed to it in the programme for Government, what are the developments on child maintenance?

Chairman

I thank Deputy Hourigan.

Deputy Micheál Martin

First, I would generally support Deputy Hourigan's view in terms of gender equality budgeting. We have been developing the well-being framework which has been an intense piece of work and I take the Deputy's point about making it legible. The late Bobby Kennedy spoke much more eloquently about well-being than we are at the moment, and that is no offence to how we are putting all of the documentation together. It is a very significant bit of work but he described it as needing a set of measurements that measure. He said that GDP "... measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile". Then he went through education, children and so forth. That is what our well-being budgeting is about. It should be possible. If I am honest, part of the issue since this Government came into power has been a degree of responding to the major crises of the day - Covid-19 and now the war in Ukraine and the consequential impact of that on energy and the cost of living - in terms of budgets, capital allocations and so forth.

That has impacted to a degree on doing the body of work that is required and which the Deputy is talking about in respect of the gender inequality budget, as well as having the proper metrics that people can relate to and measure as opposed to generalities and language. I do not know whether the Committee on Budgetary Oversight has had any focus on that front-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We have. The Taoiseach is exactly right. Covid threw up such a dynamic situation that data got parked for a little while because we were looking at situations that were just so extreme. It was very difficult to parse the numbers on that level. One issue is that the performance indicators from Departments present a particular challenge. They have to be contextualised within gender equality and social inclusion. We do not want to be constantly changing them because a performance indicator that changes every year is meaningless. It is tricky. I take that point completely. We do not want constant change but they need to be contextualised in the right way.

The Taoiseach

I would agree. In some areas, such as social protection, we know now what measures will help with combating poverty. People can argue whether we do that rightly or wrongly or to the extent that we should but we have a fair idea of what types of payments can deal with consistent poverty or the prevention or avoidance of consistent poverty. I will go back to the Ministers to see if we can get that template in place for the next budget. I would have to go back to the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on the maintenance issue. That has always been a continuing issue when it comes to successfully enabling people to get maintenance, enforce maintenance and make sure people fulfil their responsibilities.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

This Government specifically tried to reach out to lone parent families-----

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

-----and bear them in mind when making decisions. If I were to point to one policy decision or piece of work that would be really meaningful for those families, it would be the removal of the pressure and responsibility on lone parents to look for maintenance. We should have a system that is more reliant on the State and the State should take some responsibility for supporting the parent and making sure they have legal access and reasonable access to that income.

The Taoiseach

That is fair enough. I would agree with that and I will work with the Deputy on the mechanisms by which we can do that. There is change happening in the family court system and even with the new family court building. I am determined to get those changes through. The Deputy is correct about removing the pressure from the individual. It should be more systemic. When decisions are made in the courts, they should be followed through on and there should be an oversight mechanism that makes sure a person fulfils the obligations as determined by the courts.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank the Taoiseach for joining us today and for the personal leadership he has shown in moving Ireland to a far more supportive country in terms of gender equality and women in the workplace. I will raise two quick points. One of them was already covered by Senator Pauline O'Reilly. I refer to the issue of women in politics and creating a more family-friendly political environment. Gender quotas have worked to a certain extent. However, as both the Taoiseach and the Senator acknowledged, we also need to look at how we frame the workplace that the politician ultimately enters into, be that at local or national level. We have an awful lot of work to do in this area and we need to lead by example. To be frank, these Houses are far from family friendly with the sitting hours that form part of a typical day here. We often run up to midnight on a Wednesday. There are many representatives who sit in these Houses who do not get to see their families for two or three nights a week. Those who do are very fortunate. From conversations with them, they find that is conducive to them having a long and productive career in politics. For those for whom it is difficult, particularly those who travel from the furthest reaches of the western seaboard, it is and will remain a challenge.

Getting down to local level, as the Taoiseach acknowledged, how local government works and the timing of meetings can erect significant barriers in the way of both parents becoming involved in politics at local government level. I agree that we need to take a serious look at the salaries we pay our local government representatives. The hours they commit to that work during the day and late into the evening and the commitment they give to their constituents are very significant and I do not think they are adequately rewarded for that commitment. As the Taoiseach alluded to, we should perhaps move to a point where somebody can consider it a full-time career rather than a part-time one. That is exactly the route other countries that have been successful in this area have gone down. I would encourage the Taoiseach and his colleagues in the Department to look in that direction.

The other point I want to make is on the area of remote working. We had the greatest social experiment of our generation foisted upon us during lockdown. We essentially said to thousands of civil servants to lock the doors on their offices, leave their offices, go home and try to do their work from their homes. Not alone did they try to do their work, they succeeded in becoming ever more productive and ever more supportive of the people they aim to serve across the whole of our Civil Service. The Department of Social Protection and Revenue, particularly during lockdown when everybody was working from home, did extraordinary work and proved categorically that they can be as productive and as effective in that remote work setting as they were previously. It would be a crying shame if there were not significant learnings from that social experiment that was foisted upon us. The Civil Service and local government should lead by example in the area of remote working. Those of us in the political realm, who work in partnership with civil servants, need to lead by example. In the Taoiseach's own Department, which has an oversight role for all of the Civil Service, has any research been done into productivity during lockdown and that enforced remote working period? It went on for the guts of a year and a half to two years in some instances. Is there work ongoing right now to ensure we can be ever more flexible in the future in how we support civil servants working remotely? I think they have proven conclusively that they can do it. The Taoiseach spoke earlier about quality of life. This could be a hugely positive move in enhancing the quality of life of our civil servants. It is something we need to seriously look at. It would be a crying shame if we reverted to the Ireland of old, the pre-pandemic and pre remote working Ireland. That is something we need to focus on in the next two to three years.

The Taoiseach

At the core of what the Deputy is saying is, to a certain extent, our multi-seat proportional representation system. We bring it upon ourselves. We are a small island in some respects. Our politics is very local. The Deputy will know that if I ever it suggested a Friday legislative sitting, even when I was in opposition, I would get glares from the entire Front Bench.

Senator Regina Doherty

And rightly so.

The Taoiseach

To me, it is a more logical way of working. We should have a legislative day but the politics of it do not allow for that because people want the argy-bargy every day. Deputy Tóibín is looking at me. People want Leaders' Questions and the Order of Business. In a previous Government, back when I was a backbench Deputy in the late 1990s, we did a legislative day on a Friday. It was civilised. We got legislation through more expeditiously and in a better way. People want to be in their constituencies on a Thursday and so we get into this Tuesday to Thursday thing. I do not think it can be done in two and a half days, if I am honest. That is my view. It is a minority view but I genuinely do not believe we can do the work of the national Legislature in two and a half or three days. Some might say it is more than that as there are committees. I am not saying this in a disparaging way. I understand there is committee work and so on. It is a fundamental challenge that we have to be everywhere. What Covid taught me as a politician, for the first year and a bit, is that we were almost exclusively focused on policy. We got online calls and emails but the Friday nights were free and we were not at functions on Saturday nights. It was quite an interesting year and a half for politicians.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

It was.

The Taoiseach

At a governmental level, we were exclusively focused on policy. As we return now, that is being dragged left, right and centre. It is full on again.

Some of us love that engagement with people and so on. I like that kind of politics. I know what I signed up for, so to speak, so I do not complain about it. That said, it is very challenging and frightens people away from coming into politics. The point is that we need to take greater charge of how we organise our weeks and so on. To be fair, a lot of progress has been made. The situation was far worse in respect of late nights and so on in the past. The voting situation has been reformed effectively and the voting block works well.

There have been international assessments of productivity with remote working. It depends on the type of job but there has been an increase in productivity in some areas. Other workplaces need person-to-person engagement. Politics needs person-to-person engagement through meetings and so on. The Civil Service was quite proactive on remote working and still maintains it. I think we will end up in a hybrid situation. My personal view is that young people need to be in the workplace for certain times of the week. That is required for people who are starting out in a job from a mentoring perspective. It gives them the opportunity to engage with people and learn the ropes. We have all done that. The negative side of the pandemic for Leinster House was that the newly elected Deputies and Senators met nobody in their first year and had none of the normal engagements with people that we all had when we were first elected and which we found very useful. A senior politician would tell a newly elected politician how things work. There is a balance to be struck and I think we will end up in a hybrid scenario where people will be in the workplace for a good part of the week and will then be in a position to work remotely at home or from another location on other days. Training will require people on the job. It all depends on the type of work and the nature of the workplace. Some of the international research is already showing productivity gains from remote working in some sectors.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

The cultural piece in respect of multiple seat constituencies is important. There are demands to be everywhere. Everyone's event is, naturally, the most important to them but I would like to put my kid to bed some nights of the week. Choices have to be made and it is very difficult. We must talk positively about politics before we can attract more people but we cannot be dishonest about the realities of the pressures involved and how little politicians see their children, no matter how they structure things. In my view, it is almost better to be in the Chamber at 10 p.m. on a Wednesday because it means I have the flexibility to do a collection from school at 4 p.m. on a Monday. I do not necessarily agree that a 9 p.m. to 5 p.m. arrangement works as well as possible.

I have proposed a Bill, which the Government supported on Second Stage, addressing the potential for remote and proxy voting for Deputies in certain circumstances. It would give an option during maternity and paternity leave. There are many male Members of Parliament whose partners have had babies in recent years. There is no real reason for a Member to be in the Houses at 10 p.m. on a Wednesday for the first six months of a child's life. That Member could be at home supporting his partner as he or she looks after the small child. That is one of the Bills we are considering at this committee. I want to flag that as part of the proposed referendums.

In respect of the broader cultural piece, I want to pick up on what my colleague, Deputy Hourigan, said about gender budgeting and considerations. Much of this committee's consideration relates to cultural changes and the differences in care and the additional responsibilities that fall to particular Members and the additional difficulties they face. A group of parents were before the Joint Committee on Autism recently. The five or six guests of the committee were all women. This Government has extended considerably the eligibility for carer's allowance. Those are the sorts of practical things the Government can do to try to help. Deputy Hourigan spoke about maintenance. There are women from every walk of life and across every demographic in my constituency who have experienced divorce, desertion or domestic violence. These things can happen to anybody. There are critical junctures in people's lives. Perhaps they have had a child with a significant care need, or they have a maintenance problem or need to sort out a new life after a situation of domestic violence. Universal measures are important in that regard. A universal approach is required. That would, for example, include the removal of the means test for supports in situations of domestic violence. Easy access to maintenance is required. These are just additional things that the people affected must do. We have also talked about effecting cultural change in the corporate sphere where men and women are looking for flexible working. That should be the norm. These are all cultural changes. The universal measures are important.

The free books scheme was fantastic for everybody concerned. However, even in my constituency, that will not apply to fee-paying schools. I know of a number of women in that situation who would benefit from a universal approach. Those sorts of schemes should apply to everybody and not only some people.

How can we use the body of work this committee has undertaken in seeking to win a referendum, whenever that happens? How can we use that dialogue politically to try to effect the cultural changes that are going to be crucial for effecting long-term change for women and men?

Chairman

There is no pressure from that question.

The Taoiseach

I spoke about a five-day week. When we had a legislative sitting on a Friday, not everybody had to attend.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Of course.

The Taoiseach

There was a bit of flexibility in that regard. A vote would not be called on a Friday, amendments would not be put and so on. The Deputy is absolutely correct about having flexibility on a Monday. One positive about politics is that one has a degree of autonomy over one's working day, to a certain degree. That is a benefit. One can move things around and balance them.

I take the Deputy's point about the universality of certain payments that deal with particularly difficult situations that women or families can find themselves facing. People are sometimes ahead of politicians and the political system, and I think that is the case in respect of these issues. Societal change has already happened. I might be wrong but I believe a referendum would pass but one cannot take that for granted. We have to work hard to get it right. We must prepare the ground and comprehensively inform people in advance of a referendum. Preparation and the provision of information is key.

I think people are moving ahead faster than politicians in respect of cultural changes around gender budgeting. I attended Christ the King Girls' Secondary School on Monday. The students themselves showed leadership and I got to see cultural change in front of me. That change has been led by the principal, in a way. The students introduced me to the school and guided me in. The students spoke. They are involved in international organisations. One or two of them are involved with the UN. They want to be involved in society. The mission of the school is for citizens to contribute to the world. That shift is happening and we are sometimes delayed in reflecting it in legislation, the Constitution and our budgeting systems.

The Deputy is right about the carer's allowance. We have improved it but-----

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

We can go further.

The Taoiseach

We have always taken an incremental approach to the eligibility threshold. To be fair, someone has to watch public expenditure within any governmental system. That is the role. However, we need to look at the situation in the round. That goes to the Deputy's point about universality of access to maintenance, child benefit and so on. Child benefit was always universal but that approach was questioned. When times got tough, people questioned that universality and asked should it continue. We have always held the line on the universality of child benefit but sometimes it does not get the provision it should because people want to target other areas. The argument has been made that because it is universal, it will cost a certain amount and that money could be used elsewhere. Does the Deputy get my point?

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I do. However, the reason those benefits are paid to women is because those needs have tended historically to fall more often to women.

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I will make a point about the universality of the free books scheme. Everybody was hoping that scheme would be universal. There are people in the Taoiseach's constituency who might like that to be the case. We need universal measures for families.

The Taoiseach

I hear the Deputy.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I had not intended asking questions but the Taoiseach's answers have tempted me. It is too tempting for us to continue talking about gender, democracy and our electoral system because it is a subject where we have direct experience. I certainly agree with the Taoiseach that quotas alone at local level will not necessarily produce the benefit we want. We have been quite successful at achieving good gender balance in some councils and a strict quota could lead to the perverse situation where you would have to increase the number of males contesting, which over two terms might reduce the capacity we are trying to build. I know my party, the Social Democrats and the Green Party on Dublin City Council all have majority female representatives, which is fantastic. Some of them are first-time councillors and you would like to them develop their experience over time, so we need to be very careful with quotas. There are definitely other benefits such as maternity leave and the increase in pay.

The other area referenced by the Taoiseach is the constitutional amendment. The committee has not spent all its time talking about the constitutional amendment. We have spent far more of our time talking about the other recommendations. The Taoiseach suggested a collaborative approach. Has he sought the Attorney General's view on it? As for us drafting wording and so on, is there a method whereby we can receive some of the directions from the Attorney General that might help inform our final wording? That would be useful. I have two more questions but I might let the Taoiseach come in on that one.

The Taoiseach

Regarding gender, democracy and participation, workload is an issue. This is why I mentioned the issue of pay and conditions because increasingly, councillors have an enormous amount of work to do at local level from planning to housing and very often, the councillor is the first point of call in terms of representations on these issues. At county council level in particular, the geographic terrain in some rural areas that councillors have to cover has become larger since the changes of 2014 and county councillors have an enormous workload, which militates against women becoming involved to that degree. Less travelling to meetings is something that could be encouraged. Travelling to meetings is something people bring upon themselves and is not healthy or good. The workload in larger areas has become enormous while in cities, there is more intense engagement regarding a range of issues. That is a factor we need to work on.

Regarding the constitutional issue, the role of the Attorney General is to advise the Government, not the Oireachtas, but equally a proposal or at least the formula around a proposal needs to be on the table before you could ask the Attorney General or people with a constitutional legal bent who could advise or give their recommendations. I would have thought the policy aspect of it is key. I acknowledge the committee is doing further work on this but it has a lot of other things to do as well. There are two pathways here. One is for the committee to continue and finish its report while the other is that we ask a specific all-party committee to focus on this very narrow area of the Constitution and come up with a formula of words. This is something I will leave to the committee to consider. Alternatively, the Government could come forward with its wording. If the Government comes forward with its wording in isolation, it cannot take into account the wording that may come from this committee. That will still have to go back to the Oireachtas, which may make it easier for people to say they do not like the Government's wording and want to add this and that and then we are back to square one again, as in trying to resolve it. The Government can go to the people with a wording but the more consensus we can build up around the wording the better. Does that make sense? Either this committee finishes it, and it will finish its report anyway by December, or we just get a very sharp time-bound group that looks at the actual wording, possibly even taking wording from this committee. It really needs a constitutional legal lens as well to get it right, as far as possible. We can never guard against unintended consequences, because jurisprudence will lead us in a certain direction anyway.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is useful from a broader committee perspective.

Chairman

It is very useful.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The issue of caring has been a significant part of our discussion. Certainly the issue of parents of children with a disability and their access to school places has been a key discussion. Where does the Taoiseach stand on this? We have made some moves in terms of helping to secure the rights of children with disabilities, particularly those with autism, and access to school places. Schools are reluctant to do that. We would like to see this significantly improve. Where does the Taoiseach stand on that? My next question concerns a publicly funded network of domestic violence refuges, about which we have had some discussions.

The Taoiseach

I am of the view that all schools should have an obligation to provide for special education and should not be in a position to refuse. That competes with other rights in terms of autonomy of the school but where the State is funding schools to the degree that it does, the broad principle of the State is inclusivity. When I was Minister for Education and Science from 1997 to 2000, we had very little difficulty in transforming the special education system in terms of primary schools coming forward to create special classes and take children with special needs into mainstream schools and employing SNAs. To be fair, if that obligation is on schools, we must then provide the resources and we are doing that. The obligation should be there and legislation has changed and is changing to reflect that but resources must follow that in terms of the broad spectrum of needs but also different types. There is no one size fits all. It is at post-primary level that it has become particularly challenging with autism. We have established new schools in the past two years. About three to four special schools have been established. That is where I see that. There are other issues on the health side that are separate but must be dealt with in terms of the progressing disability services, PDS, programme and its limitations so far.

Regarding refuge places, as part of its overall strategy, the Government's objective is to provide that everyone who needs a refuge space would get one. I think we are up to 141. I am still working with the Department of Justice regarding the timeline for providing the places. When we get the agency set up, I believe it should drive the provision of refuge spaces with the proper optimum model. Historically, the model has been localised and bottom-up, which is okay to a degree, but we do need standards and high quality, which we have achieved in many other areas of public life. We have improved schools and healthcare settings, including primary care settings, dramatically so there is no reason why we cannot have a high-quality spec for refuge spaces and centres for families. The strategy commits to doubling the figure to over 280 over the next five years. I would like to see as much as we can do. Some of that is back loaded. I would like to see whether there are mechanisms we can work with local authorities to bring some of that forward faster.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Regarding the referendum commission, I am paraphrasing here but I think the Taoiseach used the words "frustration" or "annoyance" with it being given a timeframe. I have to put it to the Taoiseach-----

The Taoiseach

No, it is annoyed with us.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

That is what I mean; around a timeframe. However, this annoyance pales into insignificance compared to the annoyance and frustration felt by women outside and inside this building. We have been speaking about Article 41.2 for longer than I have been alive. It was the biggest single policy issue at the time the Constitution was being drafted so this is not a new issue. I agree with the Taoiseach, however, that it is complex and there are a number of different aspects to it. Simplicity may very well be the answer.

However, given the complexity and length of time for which this has been going on, would the Taoiseach consider a cross-departmental document similar to that containing the third strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence or something similar to a Housing for All pathway that would lay down key performance indicators and give a documented progression rate in achieving the recommendations made by the citizens' assembly. We need more than statements in the Dáil on this matter. We have had statements on the citizens' assembly recommendations last year. What we now need to see is documented, transparent progress. It is not good enough that when we finish this work, Members of the Oireachtas will be reliant on parliamentary questions to seek an update. That is not transparency. Any member of the public should be able to get access to the information. The commitment is in the programme for Government and has been in other programmes, but we need to provide accountability, timelines and clear deliverables when it comes to gender equality. Citizens deserve no less than that.

I have a second question for the Taoiseach. It relates to the citizens' assembly model. Earlier this year, Professor David Farrell warned that the high-profile successes of the repeal and marriage equality referendums disguise the fact that many recommendations of previous assemblies have been ignored, rejected or left to gather dust, thus wasting time and effort, not least that of citizens' assembly members, and wasting public funding for very little return. He describes the evolved assembly model as sub-optimal, very top-down, very managerial, tightly controlled by civil servants and a Government-appointed chair, running the risk of stifling innovation. Does the Taoiseach share Professor Farrell's concern regarding State stifling of citizens' assembly recommendations and the failure to advance those within a meaningful timeframe?

The Taoiseach

On the Deputy's first point, I do not believe the comment she made is fair in the sense that she juxtaposed my position and the frustration of people over not getting the amendment. I have been involved with various referendums. Referendum commissions are given a job to do and need time to do it. When I am asked for a specific timeline, I want to make sure it allows the commission time to do its work comprehensively and in an informed way. I do not want it alleged that a commission was just put together at short notice and did not have time to do its work properly. That is all I am saying. It is something we should all agree with. If we want constitutional change, we should do it properly. The first stage is to settle on wording. We do not have wording right now. We have disagreement on that. "Disagreement" might be too strong a word but we are trying to work towards agreement.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Options.

The Taoiseach

Yes, but ultimately we need agreement. We do not have it. The committee has to come back to us at the end of the year.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

At the beginning of December.

The Taoiseach

I am not clear on what the Deputy is saying. A cross-departmental-----

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Yes.

The Taoiseach

-----on the Constitution could just muddy the waters.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Not just in relation to the referendum but also in relation to the citizens' assembly report. The programme for Government commits to delivering on each and every one of its recommendations. My question relates to how we provide transparency and accountability in respect of each of the 41 recommendations. Will the Taoiseach consider something like a cross-departmental document similar to that containing the third strategy or the Housing for All pathways? I refer to a published document on which there can be accountability and that delivers timeframes.

The Taoiseach

The Government is committed to the strategy on women and girls, for example. It is being worked on and, similar to Housing for All, will provide an overarching framework.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Would the Taoiseach consider something similar for the citizens' assembly report?

The Taoiseach

On the Deputy's second point, in respect of which she quoted Professor Farrell, fundamentally it is the Oireachtas Members who are elected. It falls to the Oireachtas to make decisions. The Oireachtas committee worked on the eighth amendment, for example. It did not stick to the letter of what the citizens' assembly prescribed. Not every member of the committee voted for it. Some were against, some abstained and some voted in favour of changed or amended wording. It got through eventually and was passed. Some recommendations have been taken on board. Not all are. It has to be clear that very often what the citizens' assembly achieves is a very good articulation of the ideas and a teasing out of the issues, but it can never be the view that whatever the citizens' assembly recommends has to be, de facto, implemented by the Oireachtas.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I think there is a little bit of cross-communication-----

The Taoiseach

As a general point, that is valid. Members are elected by people as well, and they have different views, as we know. People will want to do things differently. That is the balance we want to get right. I would engage on Professor Farrell's point that the model is too managerial. I believe he was involved with the original models. There was criticism in certain quarters of this House of what I would call wrong allegations in respect of the thing being managed and choreographed and so on.

We will always consider ways of improving the model, but we are at the cutting edge in Europe. Very few are doing this in Europe to the same degree as us in terms of our model of participatory democracy.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I agree with the Taoiseach. He has just made a very important point.

The Taoiseach

The shared island dialogue series we have developed, which has had a different form altogether, has been long-standing and impressive. Up to 2,000 people in the North and South have engaged in different teams in that dialogue. We should always be open to different approaches and models and to learning lessons from what has gone right and wrong.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I think that is a very important point to make. I agree with the statement the Taoiseach made on people often being ahead of the system and the politics. The reason I ask my question is that if there is not a clear response to those who participated in the Citizens' Assembly, particularly the one conducted during the Covid pandemic, which was a very difficult time, it may undermine the very basis of the assembly and make it difficult to get people to partake in it.

The Taoiseach

That is a fair point but we would say we have responded to a number of the recommendations of the specific Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality already in terms of childcare and so on. Also, this committee represents a response. There is a degree to which we want this Oireachtas committee to come back to the Executive and the full plenary gathering and say this is how we think this should be implemented. That is what I thought the objective of setting up this committee was.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

At the beginning of December.

Chairman

I am conscious that we take very seriously the obligation imposed on us by the Oireachtas. We are committed to producing our final report on 1 December and, without pre-empting our work, to consider further the options we have already put forward for wording constitutional change. This is so we might provide the Government and the Oireachtas with a clearer and more precise plan for the holding of a referendum, which we would like to see next year, to give effect to citizens' assembly recommendations Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive. The exchanges we have had today with the Taoiseach on this have been very helpful. I thank him for that.

Two more members wish to contribute, and also a non-member, who I did promise we would try to facilitate. I ask Senators Higgins and Doherty to keep their remarks within three minutes, if they can, so the Taoiseach will have time to respond, perhaps to both together.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

We might be better to have separate responses. I have very specific questions. I welcome the Taoiseach to the committee. In his opening statement, he specifically mentioned committing to holding a referendum on Article 41.2 of Bunreacht na Éireann but, as he will be aware, the recommendations of the citizens' assembly relate not only to Article 41.2 but also, crucially, Article 41.3 and Article 41 more widely. Therefore, it is not solely a matter of Article 41.2. There is not much ambiguity in relation to Article 41.2 on care. Any time a question has been put to the public on this, they always came back looking for gender-neutral recognition of care. There is very much a close alignment with the options this committee has put forward so far. This requires action. I am concerned that while the Taoiseach mentioned Article 41.2, we have not had any discussion of Article 41.3, specifically the fact that the latter, as it stands-----

The Taoiseach

There no issue for me on that. It is all Article 41.3. I apologise.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

On Article 41.3, the specific aspect I want to focus on is the recommendation on the family. Under Article 41.3 at the moment, the definition of "the Family" really only entails the marital family.

That has a very real impact. We have spoken about lone parents where 25% of all the families in Ireland are single-parent households. That is 25% of all our families who are not recognised as families by the Constitution. We have also heard very detailed testimony from a number of witnesses about the impact that has personally with identity and also in policy areas, including social protection policy. We heard of one very interesting court case this weekend that involved a widower whose partner of more than 20 years had died. They had three children in their teens. The judge described them as a loving family in the sense of which family is generally understood in our society but the man was judged not be entitled to the widower's contributory pension because the purpose of that widower's contributory pension was defined by the judge as supporting and promoting the marriage contract. There are couples, therefore, of 20 years living together and their families are not considered to be a priority in the same way that marriage is. Marriage is considered to be a greater priority than them. It is similar for lone parent families. These policies have real impacts. We talk about consequences and unintended consequences. There are consequences now from how our Constitution is framed. Will the Taoiseach assure us that in his intention to hold a referendum, the Taoiseach is also committed to those provisions in Article 41.3 around recognising all families and including, of course, the marital family?

Chairman

That is very specific.

The Taoiseach

Yes I am committed to them. I fully accept that for a long time the definition of marriage was too restrictive in the context of the understanding of that article. Many legal people might have a different perspective legally on that but I am very clear that the family is a very broad concept as far as I am concerned. I look at it in the broadest way. I am very committed to changing that.

As I said earlier, where we are now is the method by which we arrive at a proposal to go before the people. I understand that this committee has done an interim report and that there is to be a fuller report. I have put forward the idea that we need to do something more specific on these three. I referred to the three areas in my contribution earlier, but not in the formal speech, and that we would deal with these areas as identified by this committee. The committee has already come forward with proposed amendments to them. The Senator has said that they may need further work. It is just a methodology by which we do this now. I favour achieving as great a consensus as we possibly can, although there will not be unanimity on this, before it comes to the Executive. Then we will go to the people with the wording.

Chairman

I thank the Taoiseach. That was very clear.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I must also mention what is useful for us. To be honest, there is very wide agreement in this committee but the information we do not have is on the questions or concerns that the Government has, including from the Attorney General and others. This is why we have constitutional experts who are coming to meet with the committee and who have spoken to us. We have legal experts on the committee. The key point is that we do not want a situation where we give a specific wording, the Government then says that there is a technical problem from the Attorney General's perspective with this one wording, and then it all gets kicked to touch again. This is why we have given options. It is not because there is disagreement within the committee. There was a very strong collective general direction of travel from this committee. We have been trying to anticipate what concerns the Taoiseach might have but we have not had any input from the Government around what it is considering.

Reference was made to the Referendum Commission. The other part of the policy is ensuring that our social protection policies and other revenue policies are reviewed for the consequences of the referendum and are prepared for advance in a constructive and positive way.

Chairman

I thank the Senator. I will now invite Senator Regina Doherty.

Senator Regina Doherty

I thank the Taoiseach for coming today and I apologise for not being here earlier. I was on the Order of Business in the Seanad.

I acknowledge the amount of work that this Government and the previous Government have already done to address what we have been talking about for what feels like generations. Eaten bread is soon forgotten, as they say, and we are concentrating on all of the things that are still left to do. The difficulty I have is that we are literally talking ourselves to death. I do not mean to be disrespectful when I say that but I feel aghast when the Taoiseach says that he is going to set up another little commission to talk about the wording. I was at the Cabinet table when we came to the last wording. When we went out to open consultation this is why that had to be scrapped and why the Government had to establish a commission. We are going around in circles. The list of things that we need to change by law in order to change the culture of Irish society - not political society but Irish society - to make it equal for men and women keeps getting longer. Because those voices are minority voices they always end up at the end of a list. For argument's sake, we talk about gender-proofing budgets yet the automatic enrolment heads of legislation that were published this week continues to perpetuate the gender pension gap that exists for society today. This is a brand new scheme that has been around since Séamus Brennan's days in its making. We announced it this week and it continues to perpetuate the gender pension gap. There are parents of incapacitated children who are born to women and men who are probably in their 20s or 30s. They are abandoned by the State because the woman must give up work to mind her child, and we give the husband a tax credit that is so miserable instead of recognising the value of the care that they give. The contribution to the family and society that such carers give should be rewarded or at least acknowledged by the State. We do not even give them credits for their pensions. They do not exist in the State any more. We talk about valuing care yet we pay carer's allowance as an income support and not as valuing care. It is mostly women who do it. If a husband is lucky enough to earn over the threshold then the carer is expected to just carry on herself and the State does not value the care. We expect the wheels of those families to keep on turning. All of these things perpetuate the culture where we feel that we are always last in the queue. Women, care and family life is always last in the queue. We deserve timelines.

I genuinely believe in the citizens' assembly, which was a group of women and men who came along to establish a report for us on all of the ills they think need to be fixed, and to fix it. We are here now and it is going to take nine months to talk about those ills again. We deserve timelines. It is not acceptable for us to say or for the next Government to say that we will get to these things. I would love to see the referendum happening next year but that is only a tiny part. It is also about all of the other small incremental pieces that go to form the culture of how we value women and value the equality of opportunity between women and men in this country. It might be a hard thing to do but I beg the Taoiseach to put in timelines or to allow us to put timelines in.

Chairman

I thank Senator Doherty for her customary eloquence. I am conscious that I told Deputy Tóibín he would get a chance to come in right at the end after the committee members. If I may, I will invite the Deputy very briefly to pose a question before I return to the Taoiseach for his closing statement.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh for giving me the opportunity. I want to address two very important issues. There is a reality gap between what a Government says and how we implement the policy. On councils, for example, there is a difficulty as regards sexual assault that happened with regard to councillors, how that is dealt with by the council itself, and how it is dealt with by the political parties. We are joined here today by Councillor Deirdre Donnelly in the Visitors' Gallery. Councillor Donnelly has been very strong in highlighting this case. The fact the councils themselves do not provide a duty of care-----

Chairman

If this is a matter relating to an individual case then it is not within our remit. We are to consider-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

This is a matter of a very serious case that affects all councillors.

Chairman

As the Cathaoirleach I have asked colleagues to stay within the remit of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality and the 45 recommendations.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I do understand that.

Chairman

I have to be fair to the many people who have come to us with individual scenarios. We have not considered those. With respect Deputy-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I am speaking about the general scenario. I will not speak to the individual.

Chairman

With respect, I have allowed the Deputy in. Senator Doherty is a member of this committee and she has not yet had a response from An Taoiseach. I am going to go to the Taoiseach for his closing response.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It would be very unfortunate if, given the experience of councillors which is leading to people being prevented from accessing public services in terms of councillors, at least 30 seconds was not provided to air that particular issue. All political parties have a responsibility to reform how we govern ourselves, to ensure that councillors, first of all, are heard if they suffer a sexual assault, that there are proper investigations internally within the political parties in relation to that, and that the people who were the perpetrators of that assault are not in a case where they are selected for election then by those political parties as well-----

Chairman

We hear the issue that the Deputy has raised. I am going to revert to the Taoiseach for a response.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I would like the Taoiseach to focus on the issue of how political parties respond to these issues.

Chairman

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Finally, on the issue of Women of Honour, over a year ago the Women of Honour raised the issue of abuse and sexual assaults that are actually happening in the Defence Forces.

Chairman

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

They were promised by the Minister that there would be a proper investigation and that they would have influence-----

Chairman

Deputy, we are out of time.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

-----over the terms of reference. They had no influence over the terms of reference.

Chairman

Deputy, please.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

They are not engaging with the investigation because they have no confidence in it. Only 44 people have joined the Defence Forces in the past year.

Chairman

Deputy, I am asking you to respect-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Only 44 women have joined the Defence Forces in the past year.

Chairman

Deputy, I am asking you to respect the Chair's ruling.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

We are not getting to the bottom of these barriers to access to public services-----

Chairman

Deputy, please.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

-----or the Defence Forces in relation to women, if we do not-----

Chairman

Deputy, I have asked you to conclude your comments.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

-----deal with these crises. I have concluded.

Chairman

I call An Taoiseach. Apologies for going over time.

The Taoiseach

On Senator Doherty's points, I ask her to come back to me with the full report as quickly as she possibly can because there is a process there. The role of this Oireachtas committee is to consider the citizens' assembly report on gender equality and bring forward recommendations for Government to bring forward and implement. That is where we are. The final report will be published on 1 December. I would like to see a referendum in 2023. I am always cautious of setting a date and someone coming back on the date and saying that we promised we would have a referendum. I have been through this before. Referendums have been lost through bad preparation, people not being informed properly and people thinking that the wool was being pulled over their eyes. The most dangerous referendums are sometimes those where all the parties are for the issue. Recently, I was reminded of that, but I do not know who brought it up. Tommie Gorman wrote an autobiography recently, which referenced former Minister, Charlie McCreevy, when the Nice referendum went down. His press secretary rang Tommie to say that he had something interesting to say. He was in the Government that promoted the referendum. He announced that it was a very healthy thing that the people of Ireland had voted against all the political parties, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Irish Farmers' Association, which was true Charlie McCreevy style. He said that was a healthy thing in a democracy. The point is that the referendum was lost and we had to go and have a second referendum in the overall scheme of things. My only point is that preparation is important, and I ask the committee to take that in good faith.

Chairman

We do.

The Taoiseach

When I reference referendum commissions, I have been through it in the past. Once an allegation is made that a referendum commission is not allowed to do its job, that increases suspicion about what they are at and what the elite are at by putting a referendum on citizens when it has not been fully explained, and whether they are covering something up. That is my point.

We have improved the credits as well in terms of home care credits, tax reliefs, the carer's allowance and so on. Finally, on that overall point, €11 billion was allocated in the last budget in a cost-of-living package. Even that did not enable us to do everything. Obviously, it was a once-off package. Childcare is getting there. It is a very difficult area because of the multiplicity of providers and how it began in the first instance. It did not begin like our primary school system did. There are private, community and State providers. However, it is getting there over time. As I have said, we have gone from providing €0.5 billion to €1 billion in funding. We need to do more in terms of almost getting to a stage where money is not a barrier to accessing childcare. Even with the improvements we have made, we need to do more, but I think we are getting there. In politics we want to be everywhere, but sometimes we need to say that we will deal with one issue, such as childcare, over the next two or three years. That is how to respond to citizens' assembly recommendations. We might not cover everything optimally but do we deal with the childcare issue once and for all? In the past two years we have taken steps towards that. I think the employment regulation order was very important. I think that having terms and conditions in childcare for workers is vital to retain people and to create a career in childcare for workers.

I do not know if I am permitted to respond to Deputy Tóibín's points.

Chairman

I would ask the Taoiseach perhaps not to respond. We are now eating into the time of the committee that is in this room at 1.30 p.m. I thank the Taoiseach for his time.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It is an awful thing that the rights of citizens cannot be vindicated by Deputies in a public assembly like this.

Chairman

I thank the Taoiseach on behalf of the committee for finding the time to meet with us today. We very much appreciate it, as we come to the end of our public meetings on the important work of this Joint Oireachtas Committee on Gender Equality in considering the recommendations of the citizens' assembly. I thank the Taoiseach and his officials.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 9.15 a.m. on Thursday, 13 October 2022.