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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 2023

Implementation of Sláintecare Reforms: Department of Health and HSE (Resumed)

Apologies have been received from Senators Kyne and Conway. Before we get to the main item on today's agenda, minutes of the committee's meetings of 30 May and 31 May have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to meet with representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE to receive an update on the implementation of Sláintecare reforms. To commence the committee's consideration of the matter, I am pleased to welcome from the Department of Health Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General; Ms Rachel Kenna, chief nursing officer and lead on workforce planning; Mr. Muiris O'Connor, assistant secretary; Ms Louise McGirr, assistant secretary; and Mr. Niall Redmond, assistant secretary. I am also pleased to welcome from the HSE Mr. Bernard Gloster, CEO; Ms Anne Marie Hoey, national director of HR; Ms Mary Day, national director of acute operations; Mr. Pat Healy, national director of clinical programme implementation and professional development; and Mr. Shaun Flanagan, assistant director, primary care reimbursement service, PCRS.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members taking part via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

To commence our discussions, I invite Mr. Watt to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Department of Health. He is very welcome.

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to come here to discuss the implementation of Sláintecare. As the Chair mentioned, I am joined by colleagues from the Department, Ms Rachel Kenna, Mr. Muiris O’Connor, Ms Louise McGirr and Mr. Niall Redmond.

I am pleased to say we are continuing to make progress in implementing reforms designed to achieve the Sláintecare vision. Significant investment continues to be made by the Government this year. This is delivering additional staff numbers and health service capacity. We are also working to improve access to, and the affordability of, our health and social care services. There are some highlights that are worth mentioning. Significant progress continues to be made in establishing the necessary infrastructure to orientate care toward the provision of more services in the community. Critical care capacity has increased and is now at 323 beds. This represents a significant increase on the 2020 baseline. Acute bed capacity has also been increased significantly since January 2020.

At the end of April of this year, 140,503 whole-time equivalents were employed in our health and social care sector. This figure includes an increase of 2,758 whole-time equivalents since January 2023. These are the people who are employed within the HSE. The CSO census results released last week suggested that 270,000 people were working in health and social care across the entire economy, which is a much greater number and represents close to 12% of employment, which is up from 11% in the previous census. Again, the numbers employed in providing care across all of the different facets is increasing and the share of employment these workers represent is also increasing, which is interesting.

On training, the number of GP training places will increase from 258 last year to a projected 350 next year, which is a 35% increase. This is something the Chair raised in previous meetings with regard to the challenges the GP service faces, particularly in respect of recruitment. By 2026, the total number of GP trainees undertaking the four-year training programme will increase from the current 932 to 1,300, which is again a very significant increase. Capacity on the non-EU GP training scheme will also increase towards the end of next year.

We continue to expand eligibility with the abolition of public inpatient charges, which came into effect on 17 April this year. This means that people will no longer be charged when accessing public inpatient care in our public hospitals.

While we are focused on building capacity to address the immediate bottlenecks in our services, we are also focused on longer-term reforms. I will touch on a few of these, if I may. As we have discussed previously, the HSE health regions are a priority Sláintecare reform and essential for the improved integration of health services and for the development of population-based planning. The HSE health regions implementation plan is expected to be considered by the Government next week.

Elective hospitals will significantly add to our healthcare capacity and have a significant impact on future capacity. Progress is being made in delivering new elective hospitals in Cork and Galway. Again, we have discussed progress on those projects in recent committee meetings. The HSE has now secured a design team to take forward the design process and site investigations are progressing. A draft business case for the two elective hospitals in Dublin is now being reviewed by officials and is expected to be submitted to the external assurance process shortly. When fully operational, the elective hospitals will deliver almost 1 million elective or day-case procedures and consultations per year, significantly adding to our much-needed capacity. Complementary to their development, the Minister recently announced the locations of four of the six sites for the new surgical hubs in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. The hubs are modelled on the successful Reeves Centre at Tallaght University Hospital, which, over 24 months of operation, has seen very significant reductions in waiting times. The first of the new hubs is intended to be operational before the end of this year and more will follow in 2024.

As outlined earlier, there has been unprecedented growth in our workforce, with almost 21,000 additional healthcare workers now employed within the public system, enabling the delivery of increased capacity across all service areas. We are seeking to continue to invest in our health and social care workforce and to plan for the future.

The Minister indicated previously that we need to double the number of training places for medicine and nursing and midwifery to achieve healthcare workforce sustainability for Ireland. For this year, the Minister is seeking to expand undergraduate student places across all nursing and midwifery and other health-related disciplines. My Department continues to work with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the higher education sector to achieve this goal.

Ireland has an overreliance on international recruitment of doctors, nurses and midwives and this is unsustainable in the long run, given our health needs and the health needs of the populations of the locations we draw these staff from. In 2021, over 40% of our doctors in Ireland and 46% of the nursing and midwifery workforce were educated abroad. This is not a sustainable model. We need to address these challenges and significantly increase our domestically educated workforce.

Sláintecare makes clear that to build the health service we need in the future, we need to change the way we do things, as well as add capacity. The Government has been very clear in supporting fundamental reform in the delivery of care and with initiatives such as the provision of enhanced care within the community, improvements in chronic disease management, digital health and the implementation of HSE health regions. We have recently seen the significant impact that enhanced weekend working is having. It is essential that we also look to further support those nurses and doctors already rostered over seven days by activating the range of healthcare services necessary both in hospitals and in the community to ensure improved patient flow and care while addressing the capacity issues impacting our hospitals. A group has been established within the HSE to develop a national framework for extended working hours within the system, focusing initially on urgent and emergency care and delivering improvements for this winter. The new consultant contract is a further relevant development that doubles the hours available for rostering from 40 to 80, ensuring senior decision-makers are available in our hospitals in the evenings and at weekends.

As mentioned at previous meetings, the Sláintecare programme management office, SPMO, is currently developing the next Sláintecare implementation strategy and action plan 2024 to 2027. We will be building on the work undertaken to date, as well as the “refresh” of the 2018 health service capacity review. This will inform the approach we take to further building capacity and to ensure we are focused on getting the fundamentals right for the long term, as well as on delivering in the short term to meet the growing health and social care needs of our population. I look forward to engaging with the committee on the development of the next stage of the vision for Sláintecare.

Thank you. I invite Mr. Gloster to make his opening statement.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to meet the committee today and to join with colleagues from the Department of Health in providing an update on our work arising from the Sláintecare policy framework. I note that in the invitation members have also indicated their wish to discuss access criteria for medical cards and associated issues. I am happy to address both topics.

I am joined today by my colleagues: Mr. Pat Healy, national director, with responsibility for the enhanced community care, ECC, programme; Ms Mary Day, national director of acute operations, with responsibility for the waiting list action plan; Ms Anne Marie Hoey, national director of HR, with responsibility for workforce; and Mr. Shaun Flanagan, assistant national director of the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, with responsibility for the medical cards system. I am supported by senior staff, Ms Sara Maxwell and Ms Niamh Doody.

With regard to Sláintecare, as indicated when I last appeared before the committee, I would like to draw attention to the significant progress made in the development of primary and community care services. These services are essential to allow us to move away from an acute-centric model to the delivery of care at the lowest possible level of complexity. Primary and community care are also developing to meet the needs of our ageing demographic and to facilitate the change in the management of chronic disease. In recent days, the committee will have received a detailed briefing on this work, ECC and the substantial progress that has been made despite the influence of the pandemic.

ECC has had substantial investment and is now starting to yield results. The investment in clinical front-line staff is unprecedented. At this point, in summary: 2,643 whole-time equivalents, WTEs, are secured, representing 76% of the overall 3,500 posts approved for the programme; and 94 of the 96 community healthcare networks, CHNs, and 47 of 60 community specialist teams, CSTs, for older people and chronic disease are operational, with the balance to be in place by year-end. The 21 community intervention teams, CITs, are operational, with nationwide coverage now secured. The technical briefing sets out further detail and it is instructive to note the success rates being achieved. There were 22,266 patient contacts by the integrated care programme for older persons, ICPOP, community specialist teams, and that is in the first four months of 2023. Some 64% of those people were discharged home, 6% were admitted to acute hospital, 1% were admitted to long-term care and 29% remain engaged with the teams. Those are very significant indicators of success, given what was originally planned.

Some 91% of patients with chronic disease are now fully managed routinely in primary care and are not attending hospital for ongoing management of their chronic condition. GPs are referring any patients who cannot be managed within general practice to the community specialist teams for chronic disease, and 28,362 patient contacts were in this context from January to April 2023. Our community healthcare networks provided over 460,000 therapy services patient contacts between January and April 2023. Community diagnostics provided 136,852 radiology scans between January and May 2023 and just over 253,000 in 2022, which is reflected in significant reductions in referrals to hospital services.

I have set a specific requirement for this September to flex the ECC model to provide an interface with both public and private nursing homes to improve hospital avoidance and to support post-hospital discharge. This will be a new departure for primary care services. This high-level view of the ECC programme demonstrates a significant opportunity for the future and we are focused on ensuring this valuable resource has both short-term and long-term benefit to the reform of health care delivery.

With regard to medical cards, anyone who is ordinarily resident in the Republic of Ireland can apply for a medical card or GP visit card. This includes families and single people, including those working full-time, part-time or not at all. “Ordinarily resident” is defined as a person who is living in Ireland and intends to live in Ireland for at least one year. Individuals will receive a medical card or GP visit card in the following situations: when their finances - their income and outgoings - are assessed and they meet the income requirements; or when they do not meet the income requirements but they have a medical condition or conditions that make paying for healthcare difficult. The national medical card unit has well-developed processes for looking at hardship, and this is often called a discretionary card. Individuals who automatically qualify may not have to do a means test, and I have included a list of those at appendix 1 of my statement.

The HSE advises the public that the most efficient way for individuals to apply for a medical card is online. However, the national medical card unit processes both manual and online applications. There is no expectation that a fully online system could be achieved. Currently, the majority of medical card and GP visit card processing is completed within four working days of receipt of a fully completed application, albeit the printing and posting of a medical card may take a further number of days. During the month of May 2023, 99% of completed medical card applications were processed within 15 working days.

If an individual does not qualify for a medical card based on means, the national medical card unit can consider whether the cost of meeting his or her or his or her family’s medical and other health needs is fair and reasonable, despite the person's income. This is often called a discretionary card and an individual would usually only apply for same after his or her application has been turned down on income grounds alone.

Between December 2022 and the end of May 2023, there was a net overall increase of 22,994 medical cards, bringing the total to 1,591,373 persons at the end of May 2023. Between December 2022 and the end of May 2023, there was a net overall increase of 10,229 GP visit cards, bringing the total to 545,970 persons at the end of May 2023. At the end of April 2023, there were 183,354 medical cards and 39,324 GP visit cards in existence which had been awarded solely on a discretionary basis.

With regard to the workforce, at the end of March 2023, the HSE and section 38 agencies had 139,838 whole-time equivalents populated by 158,582 people employed, and the Secretary General has already expanded on that point. This is an increase of 20,020, or 16.7%, on 2019 levels. This week, we are commencing a major international recruitment campaign associated with the public-only consultant contract, which is commencing in the UK and Australia before progressing on to the rest of Europe and Canada. As far as we believe, the investment in our recruitment drive is merited.

Other matters relevant to Sláintecare have been addressed by the Secretary General and have previously and recently been briefed to the committee, including the implementation of regional health areas and also waiting lists. I am happy, with my colleagues, to address those matters further with the committee.

Thank you. I invite members of the committee and other Members to discuss matters with the witnesses. I call Deputy Colm Burke.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance and contributions. I will begin with an area about which I am concerned, which relates to radiation therapists. My understanding is that there is now a shortfall of up to 40% in the number of radiation therapists we require. I also understand that at any one time, 45 people are coming through training in the country, with 30 in Trinity College Dublin and 15 postgraduate people from University College Cork, UCC. What immediate action will be taken? I understand four machines are lying idle that cannot be operated because we do not have the staff. What action is being taken to deal with this issue to retain the staff we have, to get in new staff and to expand the training programme?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the expansion of the training programme I am not sure specifically about radiation therapy. Perhaps the Department has a view on it. There is general engagement targeting all health professionals to increase the number of places on training programmes. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has committed to doing this in the autumn. We are projecting our workforce as far as 2040 and the needs are obvious. I do not know specifically about radiation therapy whether there is a growth plan for this year. I understand the profession is losing numbers. It is difficult to get and retain radiation therapists. Some of them progress to other training for other disciplines.

We have machines lying idle. This needs to be urgently reviewed. I understand that last year, there was a 15% shortfall. As we speak, I understand it is now a 40% shortfall. The last thing we need is people being delayed access to radiation and chemotherapy. I ask that this be prioritised.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will certainly have a look at the details.

Perhaps Mr. Gloster will come back to me on what action has been taken on it.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will of course. On the positive side, investment in oncology radiation is quite significant. A brand-new unit in Galway will be opening in the coming weeks.

I know but the problem is that if we do not have the staff to man them we will be in difficulty. There is another training issue, which is the need for Departments to co-ordinate. I understand that UCC is prepared to make available additional training places but the trainees also need to have access to clinical places in hospitals for the training process. There is a need for co-ordination between the Department of Health, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the HSE. This needs to be put together.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will come back to the Deputy on the specific details.

Second, I want to raise the issue of discharge from hospitals. While I know everything is being done to try to expedite this, even as we sit here, I understand that anything up to 500 people are in hospital who should not be there but should be discharged. I have tabled a parliamentary question regarding someone who has been in St. Vincent's University Hospital in Dublin for two and a half years. A suitable alternative place for her care has been identified but she still has not been discharged. Someone who had been in Cork University Hospital, CUH, for 15 months was discharged on 12 June. That person could have been discharged 12 months ago. Where we have complex cases why does it take so long to identify suitable places? There is also engagement with the private sector on dealing with this issue. What can we do to fast-track this issue?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I agree with Deputy Burke on the extremely complex cases. I find it shocking that somebody would be in an acute hospital for 15 months or two years.

Two and a half years. I still have not received a reply to-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is no point in me trying to defend it. With regard to delayed transfers of care, I said in my first appearance before the committee in March that it was a serious and significant priority for me. At that point we were running at an average of just below 600. We have reduced the consistent number of delayed transfers to slightly below 500. I do not think that is good enough and I intend to do more work on it. Ms Day is doing a lot of work with her team, as is Mr. Healy's group in the community.

With regard to the most extreme of complex cases, very often the issue is not one of money but of sourcing the skill set in the onward care placement.

My understanding is that a place was identified two years ago for the patient in St. Vincent's but there seems to be a stand-off as regards who is taking responsibility. Two and a half years later, a bed is being occupied at high cost to the State because a place is not available in a hospital.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair I am not aware of the individual case. I find it quite shocking that somebody would be there for more than two years. I will come back to the Deputy within a week on this. If a placement has been identified for that person, there will not be a problem. Usually, however, in these situations it is not as easy as that.

I will move on to the issue of elective hospitals. The Secretary General referred to this. We have identified a site in Cork and appointed a design team. When is it believed we can go forward to making a planning application? Is there a timeframe? I fully understand the Department does not have overall control of the design team but timelines are being set out. What timeline are we speaking about for the elective hospitals in Galway and Cork?

Mr. Robert Watt

The HSE and the Department are looking at it this week. Mr. Gloster and I have a meeting later this week to look at the timelines again. We are hoping to do it as quickly as possible. Our ambition is this autumn. We need to interrogate the timelines. Design teams are in place. We need to finalise the detailed design, which I hope will be used for all of the elective hospitals. We must expedite the planning process. If the Chair agrees, we will write separately when we have an update on the timelines because they are in flux.

Does Mr. Watt think we will have a planning application ready to go before the end of this year?

Mr. Robert Watt

I hope so.

My next question is on three facilities which the HSE has in Cork. Mallow General Hospital is to have 48 beds for run-of-the-mill patient care and 40 rooms have been built. I have received a letter from the chief executive of the South/South West Hospital Group this week. There seems to be no plan for what the 40 rooms will be used for. The other two facilities in Cork are Heather House, which is to have an extra 60 beds, and a facility in Blarney which was previously a hotel and has been converted for 50 beds. What is the timescale for all of these to be put in place and up and running?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The director of the hospitals will respond to this question.

Ms Mary Day

The 48 beds in Mallow will be ready by the end of the year. The plan is to support the Cork University Hospital campus on medical admissions and to support the patient flow. We are exploring whether this can be increased. The beds will be open by the end of the year.

We will have to downscale the number of beds in the old Mallow hospital, however, and transfer them to the new unit.

Ms Mary Day

There are 28-----

No one is able to tell me what we will do with the 40 rooms. They are there. We have a problem and great pressure in getting people into and out of hospital. What is the plan? The letter I received from the South/South West Hospital Group does not give me clarification on whether there is a plan.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Of the 48 beds, 28 of them are replacement beds so they are not additional and 20 are new beds.

Yes, I am aware of that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

All 48 of them will be open by the end of the year and they will be medical support beds.

With regard to the other 40 rooms that have been built, no one has given me-----

Ms Mary Day

There is exploration in this regard. My understanding is that there is a shell. There are the 48 beds and an additional shell that will be scoped out to increase the capacity. This is part of our-----

Surely we have a building built. There is great demand for services. We have a four-storey building and the second and third stories have 48 beds. No one is telling me what we will do with the ground floor and the first floor.

Ms Mary Day

Our ambition is that we will shelve out those beds and use them to support patient discharge from CUH and to support the CUH campus.

What is the time plan? The building is there. CUH is under great pressure. There is an increase in population in Cork, Kerry and all of the Munster region. We need the capacity.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The built bed delivery target for Mallow this year to hand over to the service to open and run is 48.

What about the possibility of-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is no plan for a further 40.

The other problem is availability of rehabilitation beds. There is huge demand. All rehabilitation facilities are based in Dublin. There is no rehabilitation facility, in real terms, in County Cork. Why can that not be considered as regards rehabilitation facilities?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Nobody is saying it cannot be considered. We were before the committee a few weeks ago discussing in detail the rehabilitation strategy. I think we set out clearly where the beds are profiled for that, with additional beds in Dublin as well as the National Rehabilitation Hospital. We stated that there is a variety of beds around the country referred to or called "rehabilitation" beds. Some are just post-stroke and some are for different things. We are trying to bring all of those up to a standard of being maximum rehabilitation beds. That would also include capacity in County Cork.

We now have the building, my view is about its effective use.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We will put that to the South/Southwest Hospital Group. It would be wrong to mislead the Deputy; 48 beds are being opened and delivered for Mallow this year. The "shell" he referred to of the other 40 rooms is not in the plan.

My concern is that there is huge pressure on the services in County Cork. I ask that someone come back to me as soon as possible, rather than me getting a letter which does not say "yes" or "no" that this will or will not be the same way this time next year. That is what I am concerned about.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In fairness, I am being fair to the Deputy - I said 48 will be provided this year and the other 40 will not come on stream this year. I am being honest with the Deputy. I am being upfront.

There are pressures-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are pressures everywhere and I have to do what I have to do with what the Government gives me.

We need to move on from County Cork.

Onto County Waterford so. I welcome Mr. Watt, Mr. Gloster and all of the witnesses. Before I get into my questions on medical cards, I commend the enhanced community programme and huge work going on in that area. It was from a standing start, built from scratch and what has been delivered is very impressive; I will get to that later. I commend all involved. It is a vital piece in taking pressure away from acute hospitals and delivering the right care in the right place at the right time. Often, when we focus on what is happening in hospitals and emergency departments, the focus is on more hospital beds and capacity, which we need, but the priority should be more investment in community services, which is what Sláintecare committed to.

On medical cards, I read the opening statements from Mr. Watt and Mr. Gloster. Neither of them referenced what was in the budget last year, namely, extending the GP visit card to, I think, 300,000 additional people. I was surprised it was not mentioned in any of the opening statements. I thought they would come in with good news to say this is imminent and will happen because, in that budget, there was a commitment to delivery on 1 June, which has come and gone. The Minister was before the committee during Estimates recently and said a decision was imminent and would come very quickly; it still has not happened. I have not had any word or sign that this is imminent. Will Mr. Watt say when this will happen? Will we see those cards in place for those people, to whom a commitment was given to getting them on 1 June?

Mr. Robert Watt

To add to the Deputy's comments on enhanced community care, I hope we will talk about it later because it is an incredible initiative that is having a significant impact already in terms of emergency department avoidance. It is not necessarily reflected in the numbers because it is prevention - it is people who would otherwise have ended up there. It is worth considering the impact it is having and what we can do for the future and what it means; Pat Healy, in particular, has been leading on it. It is incredible to see how much work has been delivered.

On GP cards, we share Deputy Cullinane's frustration. We would like these negotiations to have been completed by now and for the people who need these cards to have them. They are for people whose incomes are below the median household income, in other words, the people on the lowest income in our society and who have to pay for services. We do not believe they should have to pay for these services. We have been negotiating for some time now. The new deadline is the end of this month and the Minister and the Government have-----

I must stop Mr. Watt there. The reason it was done this way is because getting medical cards for six and seven-year-olds - which was promised God knows how long ago - involved legislation being passed; it was announced and reannounced. It was all held up because of negotiations. This was meant to be a different approach in which we simply extended the criteria for the GP visit card. If it is wrapped up in negotiations, how is that the case?

Mr. Robert Watt

There is a balance to be struck. We believe we should push ahead and extend the eligibility but we want to work with our partners in the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO-----

I said that to Mr. Watt at the time and I said it to the Minister when he announced this. He was before this committee and I asked him and the same bodies that were here subsequently, the Irish College of General Practitioners, ICGP, and Irish Medical Organisation, if there was any engagement with those bodies prior to that announcement in the budget and they said no. It strikes me that the HSE went off half-cocked, made an announcement, promised people that on 1 June, cards would be in place - which has not happened - and now it is stuck in negotiations, with no delivery. It would have been better, from my perspective, for the groundwork to be done and negotiations completed or at least some discussions that the HSE was moving in this direction. It seems it was a rabbit out of a hat and here we are with no delivery. At some point, negations must come to an end. At some point, Governments have to act and say they are going to do this. It is unacceptable that even today, we cannot be given a timeframe for something that was committed to in a budget, to much fanfare, with roll-out on 1 June. I still cannot tell people when that will happen.

Mr. Robert Watt

I think I said that the new timeframe for conclusion of negotiations is the end of June. The Government, as often happens in these situations, has a choice between pushing ahead unilaterally or doing it on a collaborative basis and having full co-operation with the different parties. That is a judgment call. The Government decided, on this occasion, that it prefers to negotiate and reach a negotiated position, which is what we are endeavouring to do. These processes take an inordinate amount of time. It is not for the want of trying on our part.

That is the point I am making. With respect, I am not the one who said that these cards will be in place on 1 June. The Minister stood up on the floor of the Dáil on budget day to take all of the glory and said it would be done by 1 June. There was no sense that there would have to be negotiations or there would be the process Mr. Watt spoke about, which he said takes time. That is exactly why some of us asked what groundwork had been done when we heard of this announcement. It strikes me that it has not been done. Here we are, with deadlines come and gone. It is not acceptable.

I think Deputy Cullinane should move on. He is directing questions on an issue that is clearly a ministerial responsibility. It was the Minister who announced it. The Deputy is asking officials to respond in the name of the Minister. It would be better to move on. He has made the point.

Mr. Robert Watt

We share the Deputy's frustration. We would like this to have been done. We do not want to spend an indeterminate amount of time negotiating. This is the reality of dealing with the health system and the interests in it. The Deputy knows this - he has conversations with them, as I do. I will not get into the discussion that took place before the budget-----

I need to respond to the Chair because once the Minister makes a decision, it is up to the officials to deliver it. Mr. Watt is involved in those talks, is he not?

Mr. Robert Watt

The Department is leading the talks.

The Department is. I am asking questions of the Department, which is engaged in talks with representative bodies that are dragging on and there does not seem to be any conclusion to them or at least no sense of when that will happen. I will finish on this and say that-----

Mr. Robert Watt

They are dragging on. We do not want to be involved. We would prefer to do other things. It is very time-consuming. We spent 16 months negotiating with the consultants. We are not negotiating with ourselves - we are negotiating with the other party. It is ultimately a political decision whether the Government or Members of the Oireachtas are willing to go ahead and push ahead without unanimity or consensus. I have a funny feeling we would be on our own if there was conflict and on our own defending it.

Mr. Robert Watt

To be specific, we will come back separately with a briefing on it. We are concluding by the end of June, which is accepted now by the other side. We will be announcing one way or the other at the end of June that the process is concluded and what is decided.

My point is that a date was set; it was not set by me-----

Mr. Robert Watt

That is a fair point.

-----here we are now, with the day come and gone.

It is four more weeks.

More than four weeks. Deputy Lahart is a brave man to say it will be in place in the next few weeks.

Mr. Robert Watt

It is the largest expansion of universal GP care in the history of the State. We are increasing it by between 300,000 and 400,000. It is an enormous change. We can wait four weeks. We are happy to wait four weeks in the end.

We will see if it happens in four weeks. I wish to move on to elective-only hospitals. There does not seem to be a clear timeframe. Mr. Watt spoke about finalised design changes and expediting the process. We were told there would be a step-change in how we can deliver on big infrastructural projects in healthcare.

It is frustrating for us again that we do not seem to have clear timeframes giving us a sense as to when those hospitals will be built. Mr. Watt says he will share a note with the committee. Are there timeframes in the Department indicating when it is estimated that there will be boots on the ground, a start to construction and serious work on this?

Mr. Robert Watt

Absolutely. All of us in the system, particularly our colleagues in the HSE and staff of the HSE working in substandard facilities, are frustrated by the need for us to accelerate the expansion of these plans. The next two milestones – the CEO can answer on this if he wishes – relate to the detailed design and, as Deputy Colm Burke asked about, the planning permission. We hope to have it accelerated in the autumn. The CEO and I are due to have a discussion with our teams this week to check the positions and whether we can proceed faster. The building absolutely has to happen next year. There is a wider question – not just a health question but a side question – on how quickly we can get things done under the procurement rules, obtain planning permission and so on. There are constraints related to construction but we will absolutely come back to the Deputy with a revised timeline.

I have a final question. I gave the heads-up that I would ask this. I am talking about the elective-only hospitals. Another hospital for which we are still waiting for timelines is the national children's hospital. Is Mr. Watt aware of any serious design flaws anywhere in that hospital that could delay the project very significantly? Has he personally been made aware of any potential design flaws that could add additional time and costs to the project?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, I am not aware of any design flaws.

Mr. Watt has not been made aware of them personally. I thank him very much.

I thank the CEO and Secretary General. My first couple of questions are for Mr. Watt, who might watch the clock and take a minute for each of them. The Reeves Day Surgery Centre is close to my heart. Could Mr. Watt expand a little on what is contributing to its success and how he hopes to replicate it?

Mr. Robert Watt

Colleagues from the HSE would be better placed to answer. In effect, the Reeves centre, the surgical hub, has enabled us to accelerate reductions in the waiting lists. The fact the centre is dedicated, focusing on particular procedures and activities, has enabled us to focus the teams and resources and to work in a more streamlined way to ensure patients can be seen quickly and have their treatments. Mr. Gloster or Ms Day might add to that. The Minister, having visited the centre and seen its impact, and knowing it will take a long time for us to build the elective hospitals, decided to move ahead with the surgical hubs. That was really the motivation.

Could I have a summary of what the Reeves centre is doing?

Ms Mary Day

The Reeves centre is basically a stand-alone ambulatory care surgical unit. It has four theatres and dedicated space for pre-operative care. It basically deals with a cohort of cases that are protected in respect of throughput. We are now seeing a reduction in the inpatient waiting list in the areas in question. Also, there is additional capacity that can be shared. With St. James's Hospital, initiatives on sharing capacity regarding plastic and maxillofacial vascular surgery are being considered.

Where did the initiative and impetus for the Reeves centre come from?

Ms Mary Day

I believe it came through the hospital itself, which saw a strategic opportunity that it grasped.

It grasped it. My next question is for Mr. Watt. I am very taken by a paragraph on page 4 that seems to indicate, without elaboration, some kind of policy statement on Ireland's overreliance on the international recruitment of doctors, nurses and midwives. Does Mr. Watt want to expand on that?

Mr. Robert Watt

As we all know, a large percentage of the medical and nursing cohort in Ireland are educated abroad. Obviously, we are delighted that these highly trained and skilled professionals are happy to come to Ireland, but they are moving from countries that have healthcare needs, including emerging ones. There has been a very clear view in the Department for some time that we have not been investing enough in training and providing opportunities to our own and other EU citizens to train in all the various disciplines. Ms Kenna has been working intensively with her team to accelerate the number of places available, working with the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We are doing everything we can to increase the number of new training places that give opportunities to young people doing the leaving certificate and who I hope will enter college in September, although not exclusively those young people. An initiative was announced over the weekend on our accessing places in Northern Ireland. This is a very positive development. We are looking at all opportunities to expand the number of places. We accept that this cannot be done overnight. We need to put in place the programmes and infrastructure. The Minister announced approximately 400 additional places for this September but we would like to do more. In this regard, there is a discussion between the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

We are also considering proposals on a new medical school. A proposal for a new medical school has come to us from Technological University Dublin and we are looking upon it very favourably. That is a positive development.

Mr. Robert Watt

To train doctors. We are considering all opportunities. It is really a matter of how quickly we can proceed. As we have spoken about many times, the demand for health services, driven by science and technology and also by our demography, is going up by 2% or 3% per year. If it goes up by 3% per year, that will see a doubling in 24 years. We cannot expect that the workforce in the health system will be half a million in 20 years. We will have to do a lot by way of productivity changes and so on, but we need to train many more people to meet the need and to address the issue of people retiring at the other end. This is an enormous challenge for all of us.

What are the dangers of the current over-reliance?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not think there is a danger. We cannot meet all our needs using a supply from outside Ireland. Conscious that students are doing their leaving certificate examinations at the moment, I believe there are plenty doing those examinations who want to enter medicine or nursing but who are constrained by the number of places. On the other side, however, we have endless demand that we cannot meet for the professionals in question. Therefore, there seems to be a policy mismatch, of which we are very acutely aware, that we need to address. We are delighted that there are people from abroad who are willing to come to Ireland, but the societies we are relying on, such as the Philippines and India, have ageing populations too, and they will have healthcare needs in the future. It is generally recognised across the developed world that more training is required. The World Health Organization has come up with statements about the need for all of us to train more people. This is an enormous challenge. That is the motivation.

There is one question on which I do not need an answer now, maybe a written answer will do. I am sure every politician is approached every so often by entrepreneurs with innovative ideas in the health area but there does not appear to be a one-stop shop within the Department to which they can be directed in confidence in the knowledge that their ideas will not be widely shared. I have encountered someone in this position in the past two or three months. I emphasise confidentiality because the ideas are entrepreneurial. If Mr. Watt has a brief response, he might give it, but I will accept a note later if it is not.

Mr. Robert Watt

The Deputy receives requests for meetings but he can only imagine how many the Department and HSE receive. There is an issue with procurement law in that if someone has an idea we believe is great, we cannot just give the money to get the initiative up and running. If it is to be scaled, there have to be pilots. Clearly, there is a disconnect between respecting the procurement rules on open competition and nurturing innovation. In order to scale something, there needs to be a tender. If the tender is motivated by the individual's initiative, his or her intellectual property could be disseminated in the process of procurement. Therefore, there is a difficult policy trade-off. I do not know whether the CEO wants to add to it. It is a challenge for us because there are ideas we would like to embrace. We cannot embrace them fast enough. That is not a criticism of the procurement rules as it is a matter of the EU directive we transposed, but there is a trade-off-----

I might write to Mr. Watt about it to see if there is anything that can be done legislatively. I thank Mr. Watt. My next question is for the CEO of the HSE. Could I have an update on the pharmacy contract? Maybe the Secretary General has something to say about it. Could I have an update on the dental contract? How might all the new general practitioners announced last week be allocated? Several of my colleagues have asked me to ask whether each primary care centre has a minimum service level.

Some of my colleagues and I suspect that some centres provide more services than others.

Seven-day operation is in the news at the moment. HSE officials might comment on it. I am not sure if the newspaper headlines captured it accurately, so here is an opportunity to clarify it. If it was accurate, would that apply to primary care centres? Would primary care centres, particularly the GP services, operate into the evening? I have constituents who cannot get appointments. One is seriously hurt and got one for three weeks ahead. In my own case, it was a week ahead. Not everybody is home. They cannot access a GP. It would be great if they ran into the evening and perhaps primary care could lead on that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the contracts, perhaps my colleagues, Mr. Healy and Mr. Flanagan, can comment on the detail on the pharmacy or dental contracts.

On the primary care centres, yes, they are vast and varied in terms of what is in them and what they do. It depends on the configuration of services that was there before the centre was built, how many GPs sign up from local practices to come in and work in the centre and how many of the enhanced community care staff have been recruited and deployed. In some places, we are running out of space with primary care centres and in other places we might be challenged to fill it all of the time. Primary care centres are more challenged now because they are based on an investor model usually. We have leased them back over 25 to 30 years. While we would be considered a blue-chip tenant in that context, the cost of construction and return on investment now is certainly impacting the number of people putting their hands up to develop primary care centres. That is something we are looking at.

Seven-day working has been in the news. Since I first came in, I have made it a priority to change how the health service is deployed. A big part of the health service is deployed on what we call a five-over-five basis, that is, a person is employed to work Monday to Friday. We need to move that to a five-over-seven basis so that we do not just have nursing and on-call medical services at the weekend and we actually have service delivery. We saw incontrovertible evidence of how that worked over the June bank holiday weekend when I asked people to voluntarily move into that space. Does it mean the whole 140,000 people in the health service would be required to work over seven days? No. Primarily, it is targeted at three categories of people: the people who would be required in hospitals to support decision-makers, particularly diagnostics; the services that would be required in the community to help people to avoid going to the hospital, which is primary care; and, more importantly, those who facilitate people being discharged. We had record discharges on Saturday and Sunday of the June bank holiday weekend, which meant that on Tuesday morning, the health system was not falling over in respect of trolleys. We were still challenged, but substantially less than we have been for some time. It is targeted at a number of disciplines and grades.

On expanded GP hours, the challenge is, with the number of GPs we have, with the demand from the public and, like the Deputy said, with appointments now going out several days in some practices, it is difficult to see how we would expand routine GP services into the evenings. It is a matter of practitioner choice. We are increasingly attempting to expand the GP out-of-hours options. We did a test at the bank holiday weekend, which we will build on. In one of the out-of-hours GP services, we made the diagnostics that would be available between Monday and Friday to GPs available over the weekend. We are looking at building up all of those other supports to try to attract GP out of hours to provide a greater level of service.

Five over seven is a target for the healthcare workforce, so the headline is correct; we are after that.

Everyone is very welcome. I note the impressive progress made with the enhanced community care programme. It is fantastic news. People sometimes concentrate on the impact that has on the system, which is a no-brainer in terms of taking pressure off the hospitals, but the more important thing is the impact it has on patients in that they get local care and access to earlier care. From a system point of view, it is a no-brainer because it is better value for money as well. Let us hope there is continued acceleration of that programme.

In response to the last point that was raised on the shortage of GPs, that is the reality. People have no where else to go other than emergency departments, EDs, very often at nighttime and during the night. For that reason, I cannot understand why we have not introduced salaried GPs. That has to happen. Mr. Watt spoke about the reality of the interests within the health service. Particular interests should not be controlling progress within the health service. We need salaried GPs to do the work out of hours. We should not be expecting people who are running services during the day to do out-of-hours work on an ad hoc basis, and that is the way it is working at the moment. If we had salaried GPs, we could have those primary care services open around the clock. I believe there is much interest from people in the flexibility that a salaried GP part time, four days a week, four evenings a week or whatever would offer. I urge the witnesses to move forward on that.

Related to that is the major problem of the lack of coherent workforce planning. We have been raising that at this committee for the past three-plus years. At the moment, we are in a situation where there is money provided for services but we cannot get the staff. It is a major block on providing an adequate and functioning public health service. Who is responsible for workforce planning in the health sector? Is it the Department or the HSE? Why do we not have a workforce planning function within either institution? It is a major area. It should not be an afterthought or given to somebody who is already doing other work. There are all of those elements. There are the projections, first of all, and there is the work on the figures. We have the census figures now. There are the third level places, the clinical placements and the key thing of recruitment and retention. We are training many people but the problem is we cannot hold onto them. There are possibly a number of elements to that, such as the housing problem, but there is also the dysfunction within the health service that drives people out. Nobody seems to be asking why so many people are leaving in droves. Who is responsible and why do we not have a workforce planning function?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Both are responsible – the Department at policy developmental level and generating resources. The Secretary General and his team can comment on that. We do have workforce-----

Sorry, that is a difficulty and it goes right across the health service. Both are responsible. Who does the buck stop with?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It has to be both because when the Department develops the policy that wraps around workforce planning, we develop the implementation of it. We do have a workforce planning unit. I might ask the director of HR to comment on that.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Within the HSE, we have a strategic workforce unit and we work very closely with the workforce unit in the Department of Health. The workforce projections that we require will be informed by the various strategies that are coming out and they will be for future years-----

When will we have a workforce plan?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Just to let the Deputy know, over the past couple of years, we have worked very closely with the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. The ESRI produced a report last year on the workforce projections for acute hospitals out to 2035.

Sorry, but with all due respect, we have been hearing for years about the piecemeal approach to this; we have an extra this number of places in a certain college and so on. When will there be a comprehensive workforce plan that deals with all aspects of this? When we have asked about workforce planning before, we have been told about recruitment, which is an entirely different thing. I am concerned about this “we are both responsible” thing. It is both, everybody and no one. Is there a workforce plan on paper that we can actually see?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

The workforce plan for acute hospitals has been informed by the work we have undertaken with the ESRI.

So is there a plan that we can read?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Yes, there is a plan for that.

Can Ms Hoey provide us with that? That is a workforce plan for hospitals. Is that what Ms Hoey is saying?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Yes, for acute hospitals. We are currently working with the ESRI this year in terms of the workforce projections for community. The cumulative total will then inform the workforce requirements for the health service out to 2035. We have to work in collaboration with the Department-----

I am sorry. Time has gone by and we are asking about this, as I said, for years and there does not seem to be a proper function there or a plan.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

I am happy to provide-----

Can the witnesses provide us with anything that they have in writing about workforce planning? What is happening in the Department? Is there a workforce planning function in the Department?

Ms Rachel Kenna

There is. A strategic workforce planning office was established in 2021. We have been working intensively. I am aware that the Deputy has raised the development of a longer-term strategic workforce plan a number of times. We are operating on an annual basis with specific priorities in order to achieve-----

How can the Department do workforce planning on an annual basis? It should be working on at least a ten-year horizon.

Ms Rachel Kenna

That is exactly what we will have. We will have the first iteration of plans-----

When will the Department have it?

Ms Rachel Kenna

September will be the first publication. We have made significant progress on all of the data.

The surprising thing is that we are talking about having it at some point in the future. I welcome the fact that it is September but why do we not have an ongoing, live workforce plan?

Ms Rachel Kenna

I assure the Deputy that we have a number of key objectives that we work towards yearly.

I am talking about a comprehensive workforce plan. I look forward to that in September.

I want to ask about infrastructure, particularly in the Dublin area. Why has a site not been selected for the elective hospital in Dublin at this point and when will a site be selected? The second point in that regard is about the surgical hub on the north side of Dublin. We are told it will be a turnkey hub. What exactly does that mean? How long will it take to get that turnkey proposal? Is something in the works? When will we hear something definitive about it?

Mr. Robert Watt

On the salaried GP question, we agree that needs to be a focus. There is a specific item in the strategic review relating to the GP contract.

It was announced by the then Minister in 2018, as a matter of interest.

Mr. Robert Watt

A review of the GP contract is being undertaken and there is a specific item relating to salaried GPs as part of that. On the surgical hub, I will come back with an update on that. I know that Derek Tierney, who is working on that, is discussing the project with the Minister. On the Dublin elective hospital, the site identification process is almost complete. That needs to be brought to the Government and will be brought to the Government during this term.

The Department has been doing that for months on end.

Mr. Robert Watt

The sites are being identified and the Government will decide based on the recommendations that are put forward.

We have been told that for a very long time and there does not seem to be any progress. When will the proposal go to the Government?

Mr. Robert Watt

The proposal will go to the Government before the end of July, during this term. The Government finishes up then.

Okay, thanks. Over the weekend, I took the opportunity to listen to the contribution of Brendan Lenihan to the recent health conference. He made a number of interesting points. Leaving aside the question of the big financial risk involved in the service plan, which is a major thing, I have a specific question. He talked about the relationship between the Department and the HSE, the need to look at that and what that is about. I have talked about the duplication here and where the buck stops. We are now seeing major restructuring of the HSE with the regional health authorities, RHAs. Will there be a corresponding restructuring of the Department to reflect that new approach to the provision of services?

Mr. Robert Watt

We look at the structure of the Department all the time.

I am not saying what the Department does all the time. I am asking if Mr. Watt is going to restructure the Department to reflect the different, devolved approach that we are now seeing through the RHAs.

Mr. Robert Watt

As the RHAs are implemented, and as we see that involving, see them working and, while vertical integration is the priority, as we see responsibilities devolved from the centre to the regions, that will have implications for the role of the centre of the HSE and for the Department of Health. We will have to consider those and look at how we operate. Things like how budgets and service plans are formulated, capital procedure, capital projects and so on will have to be looked at.

Does Mr. Watt accept it is a logical follow-on from the restructuring of the HSE that he would restructure the Department so it is also operating on a geographic basis with integrated care, rather than still having silos within the Department?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not think we have silos in the Department. We have a management team which works closely together. Teams are responsible for policies across different areas and there is integration across the different teams. They speak every day and work-----

Does Mr. Watt accept there is a need for restructuring?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes. We will look at our responsibilities. It will definitely have big implications for how we set budgets, for the planning role of the Department, and how we interact with the HSE. Much of the work of the Department is oversight. That oversight role will evolve if there is oversight at the centre and of regional health. It will definitely have implications for the Department.

When does Mr. Watt expect to start that work?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have a timeline for that.

Is it likely to happen this year?

Mr. Robert Watt

No.

Is Mr. Watt considering it at the moment?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, we are considering it, but it is not going to happen this year.

I think it is important that it would.

Good morning everybody. I will happily add my compliments on the enhanced community care programme and progress there. I want to focus mostly on staffing and workforce planning. Before I do, the last time we met Mr. Watt undertook to create an estimate for the implementation of Sláintecare. Does he have that there?

Mr. Robert Watt

I think we wrote back to the Deputy setting out our views on it.

I do not want to park it but Mr. Watt knows his views on it so maybe he can tell me those views on it.

Mr. Robert Watt

Sorry, my views on what?

On providing an estimate for the implementation of Sláintecare to the committee, or to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, as was mentioned in that discussion.

Mr. Robert Watt

Sláintecare has many different aspects. If one looks at improving capacity in the system by increasing the numbers of people and beds, significant additional costs have gone into the system, of €6 billion or €7 billion over the last five or six years. A lot of that is Sláintecare and relates to workforce capacity and beds. There are infrastructure costs. We spoke this morning about the four elective hospitals. There is the enhanced community care programme, which we will talk about in more detail this morning. That has had a cost. The digital agenda has a cost. It cuts across all aspects of the budget. I do not think one can take out an element of it.

It is a stand-alone Government programme and Mr. Watt undertook in December to create an estimate, given all those concerns.

Mr. Robert Watt

I think we did write but I will check and come back.

Can I take it from that that Mr. Watt does not have an estimate for the cost of Sláintecare?

Mr. Robert Watt

Sláintecare cuts across all dimensions.

I take that point.

Mr. Robert Watt

It is very hard to say how much of the €24 billion health spend is Sláintecare. If Sláintecare is ultimately an all-encompassing programme for reform, including integrated care, improved affordability, universal care, and increased capacity, how does one drop-----

Do we know how much we need to invest in Sláintecare to get to the finishing line? Is Mr. Watt telling me that he cannot give me a number which is over and above what we would have spent on healthcare otherwise?

Mr. Robert Watt

We would have to look at the different elements of the additional spend. In terms of universal healthcare-----

Sorry, Mr. Watt. I have very little time and want to move on to the staffing issue. I do not particularly want the individual elements of it. What we discussed in September was the stand-alone programme of implementing Sláintecare, which is a main policy thrust of successive Governments. Coming from a budgetary oversight position, one would want to know the cost of that policy. Mr. Watt undertook to look at that and I believe he was going to either provide that information to us or to IFAC. Is it the case that the information is not in front of Mr. Watt right now?

Mr. Robert Watt

I will check on that. I thought we responded. I will come back on that.

Okay. If we can move on to staffing, I was reading through the documents. Something that struck me, based on some conversations we have had in this committee room recently, is that we often talk about clinical care, but could somebody give me information about staffing requirements in the future for ICT and data management? What is the workforce planning for that for the health service?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

As I mentioned earlier with regard to strategies, addressing cyber issues is a major one for us. Our e-health colleagues, working with the Department, would project what is required for staffing in the ICT and data space.

There has been a significant investment in staffing in the past couple of years in that area including this year in terms of-----

Does Ms Hoey have any numbers in front of her in regard to the increase?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

I do not have the numbers with me regarding the increase. I can probably get that for Deputy Hourigan in a moment.

Can we have a projection of what is expected, separately? ICT is slightly separate from data management because there are some disciplines where data management is part of the actual medical service. I am thinking of such things as genetics where data management is required as part of the medical service. If we can have a breakdown of ICT increases over the past year, in that medium term timeframe-----

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

That is no problem.

-----but also into the future. We spoke in this committee recently of the significant investment by both of the bodies that are here today in ICT and the future of data as it relates to the health service. I would expect to see some fairly significant staffing requirements for that. That brings me on to staffing as it relates to consultants and management. As Mr. Gloster will recall, that came up in May this year. He made some comments about consultant management, and I am careful about the use of the term "consultants" in this context, and the outsourcing of that to the private sector. He identified that as perhaps a cost risk but also a structural issue. The corollary to that, for me is that some of it should happen in-house.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is right.

If we want to get a handle on our costs there, what would Mr. Gloster expect to see in regard to management consulting in-house and how are we managing that in terms of workforce planning? I presume we are going to have to take on people who are doing things that private firms do for the HSE right now.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In the management consulting piece, the Deputy is quite correct that I raised it. I was talking about figures in the region of between €120 million and €180 million of expenditure in that profile.

That was Cork, was it? It referred to a specific area.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, that is nationwide.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I have since managed to have that distilled down into what we were actually service providers as opposed to management consultants who come in and provide us with staff or expertise. The figure is probably in the region of €113 million. That is my target focus.

If €113 million of that relates to management consultants, that leaves-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is about 400 people essentially, with different skillsets.

That leaves approximately €60 million for service providers. Would they be part-time staff or locums?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

They could be various types of service. They could provide a call centre for something or whatever. However, the €113 million are what we call traditional management consultants, project management and so on.

Let us say in the case of a capital project, they will do a review of that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Exactly so. About 400 people would equate to the €113 million.

I do not mean to cut across you. That is interesting information. When Mr. Gloster says there are 400 people, is he implying there are 400 people effectively working full-time in a role that services the HSE or is it just part of a contract?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

They are not all full time. It will be varied. Equally, our management as a main category of staff has increased. It is the highest percentage increase since 2019. I expect that should reduce the dependency on management consulting, as we recruit, in particular, senior staff and skill-sets ourselves. It does not always follow. One does not follow the other. Having assessed it, I said the last time I was here that I would do that, in terms of cost reduction and reduced dependency. I have given the chief financial officer, CFO, a target this week to reduce that €113 million expenditure by 30% to commence in September for the last quarter of this year. The full-year effect of that would obviously be €35 million or €40 million. I am satisfied that we will be able to reduce that dependency without interfering with our progress or development. I am satisfied we should have enough people in house to meet that supplement. After that, I will have to look at it further. Basically, our dependency has just grown too high.

When Mr. Gloster says the dependency has grown too high, is he saying that those same reports and that same work is happening in house? It is not that the same level of oversight would not be done. Obviously we still need the independent oversight of projects.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes. Where we need independent oversight or a particular skill, for example, the Deputy mentioned technology held in health and ICT. This year what we call our chief technology service is provided by outsourcing because we just did not have a person. Last week I did the shortlisting with the Department for the recruitment of a chief technology and transformation officer. We will bring that person in house, which will achieve a reduction. It gave the cost to have that service in as a management consultant.

Finally, because I have only a minute left, I will move on to retention of staff issues. In the last section, Mr. Gloster talked a little about a joined-up or more robust workforce planning role, reporting in September. Has the issue of housing come up? I am from a constituency, Dublin Central, where there is a significant issue in that healthcare facilities are looking at what equates to semi-permanent or long-stay places where people can stay, particularly people coming into the country, for 12 to 18 months. This is often because medical staff have to rotate to different facilities. It strikes me as similar to a university that provides housing for lecturers. It seems that by not being proactive on this we are to some extent possibly leaving those hospital groups at the mercy of vulture funds unless we step in. There might be good work to be done in regard to providing that kind of programme, whether it be short-term housing or some kind of outreach or top-up for investment on land they have available. Has anybody thought of that? Is that on the agenda for the Department or the HSE?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

A feasibility study commenced in the HSE on that issue. When I last addressed that issue in here, it was made clear that neither building nor providing housing was our core skill-set and I need to keep my focus on building hospital beds and services. That said, we have a feasibility piece on which I met one of our senior staff yesterday. I hope to have that study concluded shortly. Essentially, it is going to say that accommodation is part of the issue that contributes to recruitment and retention challenges. I do not think we could get to a scale of addressing that directly. I believe the best possible outcome for us on that issue is at the Land Development Agency, LDA, which is negotiating with us to take available healthcare lands for developing in accordance with its statutory brief. I expect that, as part of that and in return for that, for any accommodation or housing it builds it would factor in the local health community particularly on those lands. The Minister last month agreed in policy and in principle to look at the possibility of our assisting in some way with the accommodation challenge for three groups of people. They are the people we recruit from abroad, as the Secretary General said, and who find the first few months challenging - student nurses in their final, intern year and non-consultant hospital doctors on six-monthly rotation work who are particularly challenged. If we could assist those groups we would make a contribution towards retention. To be fair to the Government, I have not given a proposal on that yet for it to consider and work on. It is very complex because there are equity issues. Once you get into it, to whom do you give or not give it? I believe that apart from the LDA, if we were to go into that space, it would be such parties as approved housing bodies, AHBs, that I would rely on to try to help us. As I said, we would not make a very good landlord ourselves.

A Chathaoirleach, can I get an answer from the Department on that issue? Mr. Gloster is right, it is more appropriately a question for the Department.

Mr. Robert Watt

Does the Deputy mean in regard to housing?

Mr. Robert Watt

Obviously there is an issue about housing that impacts on our ability to recruit people. As the CEO said, we are primarily in the business of healthcare policy and delivering services. Housing is a matter for another Department. However, we will work with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. If there are solutions that can address some of the challenges we face we could explore them.

To clarify, is Mr. Watt saying it is the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, to deal with hospitals that want to invest in this area?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, they work with them together. I do not have any visibility on what is actually happening. Hospitals have their plans and I am aware that there is an issue in the Mater Hospital it has been trying to address. I am just saying, to be very clear, we can work with the hospitals but we are in the business of healthcare. We, in the HSE, have a challenging portfolio. Clearly if the hospitals and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage work together we will support that in any way we can.

Okay, the question was asked on the Estimate cost of the implementation of Sláintecare. The Department wrote back to us on 30 March. The cumulative investment in Sláintecare reforms and new developments over the period of 2020 to 2023 amounts to €1.995 billion.

Can I point out that during the conversation we talked about budgetary oversight? We were asking for a three- to five-year, medium- to long-term forecast - not current spending.

That letter was sent on 30 March.

That did not answer the question.

There is a breakdown of Sláintecare and the potential funding over that three-year period.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

When the fine detail of the census comes out - it is expected in September - there are teams lined up to absorb all that new information into fresh projections of future demand for healthcare. It is the project about which Ms Hoey spoke in terms of us inferring skills needs from that. We can also provide longer-term cost estimates. It would not all be Sláintecare. Sláintecare is the model of delivery rather than the totality of increased demand but that will be available before the end of the year.

That is really helpful.

I thank the witnesses for their statements. It sounds positive enough. I will concentrate on the issue of medical cards and eligibility. In 2014, an expert panel reported on the medical need for medical card eligibility. Do the witnesses think there needs to be a review of that report, given eligibility on medical grounds and the assessment of discretionary cards? I understand that about 10% to 12% of all medical cards are issued on discretionary grounds but do the witnesses think there needs to be a review of that report?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am not sure if the Secretary General wants to comment on whether a report needs to be updated or reviewed. In fairness, eligibility is determined by the Government. We spoke about that earlier in terms of the expansion. Does Mr. Flanagan wish to add anything regarding the discretionary piece?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I have not read the Keane report for a few years so the Deputy has caught me on the hop.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Effectively the Keane report boiled down to the fact that it is very challenging to award medical cards on anything other than a means basis with discretionary awards because - this wording may sound clumsy so I apologise if it does - the alternative almost involves asking who is in the worst case position vis-à-vis different conditions. My memory of the Keane report was that it almost advised against awarding cards on the basis of medical conditions and felt that notwithstanding all its challenges, means testing was ultimately a reasonably fair approach. Means testing is fairly intrusive. We recognise that it is not a pleasant process for anyone to go through. We try to make it as fair and compassionate as we can. In the round, it comes down to means testing being probably the fairest approach. I am a pharmacist by training and my understanding is that a lot of health issues are related to people in lower socioeconomic groups who have less income so there is an alignment. You are targeting medical cards towards the communities that need them most.

Since then, we have tried to make the discretionary part of it more sensitive and take learnings from the Keane report. There have been three clinical advisory groups since then. We have a communications working group that works with stakeholders such as Citizens Information, the Irish Hospice Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society and we try to listen to what people are telling us. The regional health forums play a part as do engagements here. We try to improve and standardise some of the discretionary bits. We have developed a burden of illness questionnaire that enables us to capture costs that may not be as obvious on the initial medical card application form. It allows us to find those people who really should have a medical card where it is not as clear during the first look at their income and outgoings so we try to standardise our burden of illness process around that.

Sometimes the assessment can be extremely cold to say the least, particularly with regard to means. I have dealt with some individuals in my constituency. It is hard to listen to somebody with a cancer diagnosis who is over by €40. They have lost their job and there is a significant amount of overheads that you would not think about. This person was not thinking about it one year ago but now they have all these overheads. It does seem to be very cruel that we have a system that is arbitrary regarding discretionary medical cards.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

It tries not to be arbitrary but the problem with a discretionary process is that it is ultimately discretionary. We have tried to standardise that. We have tried to develop systems that capture as many of the costs of medical conditions as possible. We review our burden of illness questionnaire that is sent from our medical officers to individuals. The Irish Cancer Society reports almost on an annual basis on the cost of cancer and we try to make sure the burden of illness questionnaire is capturing anything the Irish Cancer Society and various studies have published. We try to enhance that process all the time. Our medical officers look at that all the time.

I do not think I would ever say that any means testing process is not intrusive. I can imagine that if someone has a cancer diagnosis, it is hugely challenging to have to go through a means test around the time of diagnosis-----

It is the stress of applying and then appealing-----

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I acknowledge that. We have an emergency process. If we can establish that somebody definitively needs a medical card to access services but is not in a position to deal with the means testing part of it at the time, he or she can apply for an emergency medical card. We will give him or her a medical card. Decision making is medically driven. When our medical officers provide a recommendation for an emergency medical card, the individual gets a medical card. It is only for six months in that scenario. We start the means test three months later but if someone needs a medical card to access a service urgently, we have a process around that.

We also have medical cards for end-of-life situations. The Minister introduced a medical card for people with a terminal diagnosis and a prognosis of two years. Again, this can be a difficult discussion for a clinician to have with a patient because sometimes those discussions are iterative. With the way treatments and therapies have gone recently, it can be very challenging to establish a prognosis but we are trying to be as sensitive as we can regarding those things. I recognise that it is a challenging process.

Is there any reason that a terminal diagnosis is not on the list in the appendix regarding those who automatically qualify for a medical card?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We categorised within emergency scenarios. There is no reason. We have a communications working group where we work with stakeholders and healthcare campaigners so we are always looking at ways of enhancing access to the-----

That will obviously review it over time because that has only changed over the past number of years.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Yes - two years.

I do not know how you can define it but how do you define "discretionary"? Is it on the grounds of medical need or where somebody cannot afford treatment?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

You take somebody through the normal means-tested process, which involves an assessment of income and then outgoings on the other side. Under the discretionary process, we make a very substantial effort to identify all the healthcare costs that might not necessarily be clear but in the main, it still comes down to a means-based assessment. We want to spread the net as widely as possible to identify all the healthcare costs we can. Our medical officers are then required to make a recommendation as to whether they think the medical costs will make it challenging in the context of the individual's income.

Obviously medical costs that accompany that diagnosis are quite substantial. When somebody has basically lost his or her job-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The indication of the intention to apply that fairly and well is reflected in the fact that between medical cards and GP visit cards on a discretionary basis, there are over 200,000 of them in existence.

That is indicative of an attempt to capture every healthcare cost with which a person is burdened when he or she does not meet the normal means test level.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We also do look-backs and reviews. People may have bad experiences. We are very careful to look back and review complaints or things we could have done better or need to include in our processes, as well as things we could have avoided in terms of challenges for individuals. We do that on an ongoing basis. Ms Hoey, as my predecessor, commenced a process through which we got International Organization for Standardization, ISO, accreditation. Part of that accreditation involves always looking for opportunities for improvement and trying to improve the process all the time and make it more sensitive. Ultimately, however, I would never say it is not an obtrusive or intrusive process. By its nature, means-testing is not nice for those who are going through it, although we try to be compassionate. Some of that reflects our learnings from engaging with the political system and receiving plenty of feedback from Deputies, Senators and councillors through the years regarding how we could improve or where we could have done better.

The 2014 report is nearly ten years old. I hope it will be reviewed in the foreseeable future to look at how things could be done better. Time has moved on, as have costs and situations. I ask the HSE to reconsider and review that report to see if it can be tweaked in respect of issues that have arisen, particularly in the context of the cost of living, which has been a significant issue in recent years. There are people who have a diagnosis and lost their job but cannot get a medical card because they are €50 over the limit. It is difficult to hear that a person who has worked all his or her life cannot afford a particular treatment because he or she is over the limit by €50 and not eligible for a medical card.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We try to capture all expenses and outgoings. They are captured on a real-time basis. If a person's childcare or house insurance cost has increased or reduced, that is captured on a real-time basis. I apologise for cutting across Mr. Gloster.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank the witnesses for their work and successes. I will not mention any failures because I am sure there are none but we will discuss some of them. My colleague has just raised a matter that I have raised on several occasions, namely, that of medical cards in special circumstances. Mr. Gloster replied that there are more medical cards available now. That is not an answer to the question, however. There are more medical cards available now but there is a bigger population, more demand and more need for medical cards. The points made by my colleague are relevant. In the cases with which I have dealt in recent years, everything was done to make sure the financial situation was met but everything else was left to one side. The patients were told the matter was being considered but they would have to make a new application. If they still did not meet the financial limits having made a new application, they were told to make another application. It is absolutely heartless to tell a person who has a life-threatening condition, to say the least, that the HSE is very sorry but he or she does not qualify and that if he or she works hard at it, the HSE will reconsider the matter at a later stage. That is not acceptable and something needs to be done about it. The person has the added burden of not knowing where he or she is going. These people cannot foretell their future. The burden of the illness is on them and they are conscious of the extra medical and other costs, as well as having to take time off work and so on. All that needs to be taken into account. I dealt with a case in another area where a senior official in the HSE was in that situation and gradually, through a number of years, was ground down to the stage where he or she had to sell his or her house to pay for medical expenses as he or she did not qualify on financial grounds. There is a need for that to be considered further. As my colleague stated, that needs to be done urgently.

It is many years since the criteria were shifted significantly in terms of qualification and eligibility for a medical card. That needs to be looked at again as a matter of urgency. There is no sense in the HSE repeating that it is doing its best and knows the situation that exists and so on. The people who have life-threatening or life-changing medical conditions need consideration now and we need to be able to say and do something about it. I have raised this issue on several occasions in the past, as the Cathaoirleach is aware, and will do so again. I do not want to have to raise the issue again. I abhor the notion of bringing up a particular case to further length. Enough is enough. This should be done and I hope that it will be done as a matter of extreme urgency. I spent three days at this time last year pursuing a particular case where there was a stone wall, with no response whatsoever. I had to take time out and hunt down the various individuals who were responsible. I eventually got it resolved but it should not take three days of a public representative's time for that to happen. I know the time of public representatives is not very important but it is important to me. The issue should be dealt with as a matter of urgency and progress in that area should be made before the next meeting.

I thank the witnesses for the reply I received regarding Naas hospital. I mentioned the matter several times in passing with the sole objective of bringing forward the proposals that were in the pipeline and had been mulling around there for several years but, for various reasons, did not get the nod of approval. Everything was grand except for one thing. The issue of procurement raised its head in the reply to my parliamentary question. In order to ensure progress is being made at a reasonable rate not only in respect of Naas hospital, but also in respect of all other projects that come up for review, we need to move ahead of the posse and identify not what the needs are now, but what they will be next year and the year thereafter. Things do not happen overnight. It is not rocket science. I ask the powers that be to take time to address this issue. When I saw the procurement procedure mentioned in the reply to the parliamentary question, I thought this was the final obstacle. We now know about that final obstacle for next year and the year, two years or ten years thereafter. I ask for that final obstacle to please be eliminated in sufficient time to ensure the projects go ahead. Incidentally, we cannot afford to wait any longer for the assessments of those projects to take place. Again, it is not rocket science; it is simply that we need to identify the needs. In places such as the greater Dublin region, there is severe pressure from population increases. We are at the coal face. It happens daily. It is no good saying it is an area with extreme population expansion in recent years so there are problems there. That would be looking back on it. Let us look forward and deal with the thing before it becomes an obstacle and a problem. It is about forward planning. I ask that particular note be taken of that issue. When the witnesses report back to the committee, I hope we will see a reasonable expansion of expectations. That is only expectations; I have not dealt with the reality of delivery just yet.

I congratulate all those involved in the progress to date in respect of Sláintecare and the movement in that direction. I congratulate Mr. Gloster on the action taken in respect of the bank holiday overspill that we have come to expect regularly. The application of simple measures - again, it is not rocket science - had a dramatic effect, and will always do so. I thank all concerned, including those on the front line who volunteered and gave extra services to deal with the job that is there. It is becoming more of an issue that health issues arise 24-7. When matters have to be postponed to the next week, month, year or whatever the case may be, the system is not up to speed. Mr. Gloster and the staff did well in those situations and I thank them for that. He can take a bow, unless he will bump his head while doing so.

There are more improvements we can-----

(Interruptions).

We do not hand out those accolades very often. There are more simple improvements we can make in almost every area that would be of huge benefit to the population at large and would have a huge impact on the delivery of services.

The last point I will make is on mental health services and the associated services in the region of west Wicklow, south-west Dublin and Kildare. That is a very pressing area and has been for some time. The answers that come up all the time are, "We know that is a very pressing area and we are doing something about it", "We are trying to do something about it" or "We hope to do something about it", but we do not always achieve a result. For the past couple of years it has been a pressure area and some horrendous situations have arisen. I do not propose to relay them to the meeting but they are horrifying situations. People have been so neglected or badly treated and people are turfed out onto the street in the middle of the night because of a lack of space, failure to gain access to a bed in residential care at a crucial time for a child or an adult, failure to get a referral from somebody for a family member, a parent or a child, or whatever the case may be. We need to deal with those situations in a far more dramatic way than we have done to date. That will mean we will be able to stand up and say we have made the provision and talked about this long enough so it is now the time for delivery. The time for delivery in that CHO area in particular has gone past the sell-by date, and I ask that a special effort be made between now and the next meeting to deal with the situation and to take the pressure off. The pressure is on parents, family members, sons, daughters, whatever the case may be. Just a couple of weeks ago I spent a whole weekend trying to get accommodation. When I found the individuals concerned they were able to tell me where to go, what to do and so on, but it should be simple. There are provisions in the system already to respond to these situations, and we should not have to follow every situation individually.

That concludes my remarks. Again, those taking bows, be careful, and those who do not need to take a bow, be careful also.

Senator Black is next.

A Chathaoirligh, I hope you can hear me okay. The division bells are ringing here. I thank all our witnesses for coming in for this debate on Sláintecare. It really is good to hear the progress that is happening on it. It is quite uplifting, so I thank them for that.

I will focus on mental health, if that is okay, and I will ask some questions informed by the enactment of the implementation of the Sharing the Vision mental health document that the Sub-Committee on Mental Health is undertaking at the moment. How do the witnesses envision the interplay of mental health and suicide prevention policies being pursued on a national and an RHA level? That is my first question. Will they comment on how we can ensure that mental healthcare has a solid foundation in the RHA structure from the get-go? I know that Mr. Gloster has a special interest in that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I thank the Senator and, lest I forget, before I bow my head, I thank Deputy Durkan for his kind comments on the sincerity of the issue of mental health. It is an enormous challenge. We tend to be consumed in our public discourse with trolleys and acute hospitals, and rightly so, because our citizens experience such difficulty. There is, however, absolutely no doubt but that the two areas we are most challenged in, and in respect of which we have to reflect seriously on how we approach from start to finish the delivery of service, are services for people with a disability and services for people who experience mental health issues, be that acute episodes or enduring mental illness.

I was very struck by the Mental Health Commission report last week. The commission points out to us the repeated challenge of, on the one hand, trying to progress new inpatient facilities and, on the other, trying to pursue international best practice, which is to reduce dependency on inpatient facilities. The reality is that in mental health services across Ireland today our second greatest consultant vacancy challenge is in psychiatry. We have 75 vacancies that Ms Hoey's team are hoping to address at least some of in the international campaign.

To take the question of how this will be addressed in the RHA structure, first, there is a national lead for mental health in the centre of the HSE at the moment. I intend to keep that role and to add to it with a second role that will be filled in September with a specialist national lead for child and adolescent mental health. Both those national people have a clinical lead with them. We have just appointed a clinical lead for CAMHS; we already have one for adult mental health. Their job will be to ensure that right across the six RHA regions there is not only a focus on but also a consistent improvement in progressing towards achieving the two primary strategies we are pursuing in that area, which are Sharing the Vision, which the Senator has pointed out, and Connecting for Life, which is the strategy directly associated with suicide. The same as in enhanced community care and in every other part of the health service now, the approach involves multidisciplinary teams. It is a challenge filling those position when you are trying to fill so many teams. I met the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, recently and had very productive discussions with her, but we have to address the serious question: are we better to continue to pursue, for example, 70 CAMHS teams that we know repeatedly cannot come up to the fully staffed mark or are we better to have something like 50 or 52 with a wider geographic remit but which are guaranteed to be fully staffed? That is a serious question. To be fair, the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is open to that. In the RHA structure, each CHO at the moment has a head of mental health services. That head of mental health services will continue in the RHA structure but will now also cut across acute hospitals as well as community services. That is aimed at driving integration. It is a serious challenge.

The Mental Health Commission is due to report at the end of this month, I think, or in July in the next report from Dr. Susan Finnerty on CAMHS. Obviously, I am not in a position to divulge the commission's report, but I can say that that will point out to us challenges not for the first time, but they are challenges we are responding to and going after step by step. We cannot allow the mental health service or the need the public have for it to go out of visibility when we talk about the delivery of healthcare, and that has to go right out to counselling psychology and counselling in primary care. In respect of mental wellbeing, we should start from the premise that the majority of people at some point in their lives will need some level of support, even at an indicative primary care counselling level, whether that is because of trauma in their lives or whatever else, right up to the progression of people who experience psychotic and other mental illness challenges.

I agree that, going forward, it will be very challenging. My concern is that we ensure that mental healthcare has a solid foundation in the RHA structure from the get-go and that it is constantly there. My hope is that the work we do on the Sub-Committee on Mental Health can support the HSE on that in some way.

Many key areas of the Government's mental health policy, such as dual diagnosis and recovery and young people's mental health, have important cross-departmental implications. Will the witnesses comment a little on what is being done to ensure there is effective co-operation across Departments and other relevant agencies? Cross-departmental work is so important, as is that interagency co-operation. It is vital. I ask the witnesses to say a little about that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I think there are scales of challenge in that.

Very often, including with regard to RHAs, we talk about integration with other agencies like local authorities and domestic violence providers and so on. One of the biggest challenges, ironically, and I am sure the Senator has encountered this in her own work, is integration within the HSE itself. As we specialise, we silo. It is an automatic challenge. You have to specialise to get the exactness for what people's needs are but you have to rise to a different bar to not become a silo, to be integrated. It is a real challenge within the health service itself. At interagency level, my focus for RHAs is on building co-operation across communities and communities having a large say in how they support themselves, as well as how the State supports them. I do not know if the Secretary General wants to comment on interdepartmental co-operation. There is increasingly significant work now going on, for example between the Departments of Health and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on issues affecting both the health of children and the social care needs of children. I am speaking at a conference tomorrow on health and housing and the connections between them and the importance of health as a social determinant or housing as a social determinant of health. A lot of integration goes on but there is no doubt that we are all challenged because we are so challenged by our own responsibilities that it is very hard to see beyond them at times.

Housing, mental health and health are very important but justice could be brought in as well. A lot of people who might have mental health issues or addiction issues can be connected in a very powerful way. I just want to thank Mr. Gloster. I wish him well going forward in the work he is doing. We will certainly keep in touch on mental health.

I would like to return to the medical card issue. As a committee, we said we would put it on the work programme at some stage and do a session on it. One of the reasons I suggested we should try to focus on it today is the number of cases we get as Deputies but also because of what Deputy Gino Kenny said about that document that went back ten years or whatever it is. There is clearly a need to review the whole system as we move forward. The big challenge we have as elected representatives is around those people who are in that grey area because they are a handful of euros over the threshold or whatever.

The other big challenge we keep returning to is that people who are seriously ill are being asked to come up with information relating to their application. Whatever about the salary or income eligibility, which is possibly accessible, if someone is seriously ill, it is very difficult to get a letter from a doctor. They would have to go to the doctor. They might have to get a letter from a consultant or whatever else. That is the big challenge that a lot of people say they are facing. It is not easy to get a letter off a doctor or a consultant. It is equally challenging for someone who is on oxygen for 24 hours and is asked to supply all this information. I have given this example loads of times. Recently the same person who had an emergency card was asked to supply their full medical file, which seems extraordinary. It is very difficult for people in that situation. Is there any way of looking at the system that takes cognisance of the challenges people are facing trying to get that information, or is that set in stone? If someone is attending two or three hospitals and is under two or three consultants, is that not sufficient? Do they have to get a letter from all those consultants? You would imagine they could use a letter from a GP but in this situation they are having difficulty getting the letter. Is there any way the system could be more flexible, particularly for people who are seriously ill?

Going through the list of those who automatically qualify, if someone has motor neurone disease, you would imagine they would. I could go through a whole list of illnesses. Over the years people have talked about qualifying if something is a lifelong illness, say if someone is a coeliac or if they have Crohn's disease, Parkinson's, etc. There is a list of illnesses but they are not included in the system. Is there any way of looking at that? The other big challenge relates to those who are declared as terminally ill. Mr. Gloster himself mentioned the difficulty of getting a consultant or someone from the medical profession to say a person is only going to live two years. Can that be tweaked or looked at? We all collectively believe that is the right approach that should be taken to people in that situation. How can we do that?

I know I am putting the witnesses on the spot. Maybe it is a Government thing that needs to be done. It is something we as a committee need to return to, particularly around the salary issue. Deputy Kenny gave the example of someone whose income might be quite good on the surface but if mortgage, rent and all those other things are taken into account, there is not much left. They might have a child in university or whatever else. Those are the collective things that do not come into play for eligibility for the medical card. I ask the witnesses to comment on that.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

There is a split of operation and policy there. I will talk about the operational side of things. The process is designed to try to capture all the possible expenses side of things that we can reasonably predict so people are asked for those automatically. The medical costs are not part of normal means test. As regards the requests for information beyond that, if someone was asked for a full medical file I ask the Cathaoirleach to come to me directly on that and I will definitely look at it because that is not what we try to do. We try to design the processes to be as slim as possible and ask for the least we can ask for. Those asks are sometimes interpreted as trying to prevent people from getting medical cards but they are generally trying to get as much information as they can about the costs people have so we can apply the most costs we possibly can to their expenses to give them the best chance of getting a medical card. We try to make it as sensitive and simple as we can. Our medical officers try to impute from what they are given to estimate what the medical costs would be. On occasion they will say there is not enough there but there has to be more information on that condition so we send a burden of illness form to the client. That involves engaging with doctors. I know it is an administrative process but the aim is to try to capture as much of the expenses as we possibly can to give that person the best chance of getting a medical card.

The Cathaoirleach mentioned motor neurone disease. My expectation would be that most people with motor neurone disease would get a medical card because of the nature of that illness. Our medical officers would know very quickly if they see motor neurone disease on an application form that, effectively, it is a terminal illness with a relatively short prognosis. We would not be going back looking for doctors to sign those forms. We try to give our medical officers as much discretion as we possibly can. He also mentioned other diseases. I can only operate the system that is set out in legislation and it is a means-test system. There is not an automatic right there, other than for cancer patients who are under 18. There is a right to a five-year medical card and various other provisions are set out in legislation around the terminal card and the end-of-life card.

I or Mr. Gloster, on our side of the table, cannot unilaterally make decisions to change those rules.

That is what I am saying. It needs-----

Could I intervene for one second?

Hold on for a second. That is why I am saying that we as a committee might look at those recommendations, but the onus is on the person with the illness to try to supply the information. That is what I am asking, if there is a way of looking at that. It is not always possible for that individual to do it.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Our medical officers will try to estimate what they believe the cost may be, but there are occasions when that still does not get the person a medical card, because of the income balance versus all of the expenses. When we are sending out stuff, we are searching for more expenses. I hear the critique, however, and I understand it.

I know Mr. Flanagan means well but it is not working. For example, I mentioned at a meeting some time ago medical misadventure that took place in a hospital setting. There was no blame on anybody at all, as these things happen. However, the fact of the matter is this: the time has come to deal with that kind of situation. The patient was not at fault. We can talk about it as long as we like, but unless there is an intervention on a humanitarian level in those circumstances, we are not doing our job.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am happy to take it away, Chair. It is a very complex matter, to be fair.

I know, I take that and apologies, but I think it was important to articulate that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to everybody operating the system, there are two critical points. The focus of improvement has been to try to make healthcare affordable, improve affordability and increase eligibility, and like Deputy Cullinane said, moving on up the age of cards for children and so on. The current underpinning framework and policy is means-related, and there is discretion within that. It is not condition-specific or condition-related. All that I would say, in fairness, is that we cannot get it right, and we have to take what Deputy Durkan is saying, take it seriously and reflect on it. What I would say to members regarding the intention of utilising discretionary cards, is there is something in the fact that there are over 200,000 of those cards there. That shows that the system is applying discretion. How good or bad that is, is something I am happy to take away and reflect on and on the policy position, I am very happy to talk to the Secretary General and the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, to see what further we could do on our side to make that better for people.

Our only wish is to provide people with services and support, to acknowledge that people experience difficulty in that and to try and respond to that difficulty.

Okay. I am going to move to Deputy Cullinane.

One of the big promises of Sláintecare is that we would, as best we can, decouple private care and activity from the public space and public care. That encompasses an awful lot, and part of the problem that we have in the public system is the huge amount of outsourcing that happens. We can look at agency staff, management consultancy and all of that area. In primary care especially, we have a real difficulty with being almost wholly reliant on the private sector.

I want to pick up on something that was raised earlier about directly-hired GPs, because it was put out there that it is something that we need do. First, could I ask Mr. Watt - and again, I would imagine that this a policy decision that has to be taken - is there any discussion around us moving in that direction? If we go back to our earlier discussion about expanding GP care, and that is only the beginning of the Sláintecare promise, because then the next part of it, I would imagine, is not just the GP-only card, but full medical card cover for everybody is ultimately what Sláintecare promised. We are a long way away from that. Given how difficult it is to negotiate with independent practice, be it dentists or GPs - and we can give many other examples - is it being seriously looked at by the Department that we could, in the short to medium term, move to directly-hired, salaried GPs?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, it is an issue that we are looking at. It will be something that will complement the existing system that we have had, which has been in place, as the Deputy knows, for a long time. Certainly, yes. I do not think anybody could be against it. If a trained GP prefers to be salaried and an employee of the State, as opposed to working in or owning a practice-----

How many salaried GPs have we hired in the last five years?

Mr. Robert Watt

I might ask Mr. Redmond to answer that, but as I mentioned earlier, it is part of the strategic-----

No, how many have we hired in the last five years? Or ten years even?

Mr. Niall Redmond

We do not have them as a-----

That is what I am saying, so we are at ground zero. My question is how do we get from ground zero to something more substantial, where we actually have contracts in place? We know all of these things take time. We spoke earlier about urgency, and the need to do things better and smarter.

I am trying to tease out where we are at with it. What Mr. Watt said is nobody is against it, but that does not answer the question around at what point will we arrive at being able to hire GPs. I might add to that dentists, because again if you look at what is happening in that space, we have dentists who left the dental treatment service scheme. We have medical card patients who cannot get access to cover. We are wholly reliant on the private sector. That has not worked out for us because clearly, many medical card patients cannot get access to cover. I know there are separate negotiations and discussions on that. Sláintecare promised more insourcing, and more directly-hired public capacity. In these areas, it strikes me that a lot of work has not been done, but maybe Mr. Watt might elaborate on it a bit more. When he says nobody is against it, and he says that there are discussions, where are those discussions and what is being looked at?

Mr. Robert Watt

I have not considered the matter in detail, but I do not see objections to salaried GPs, and if the State says that it wants to hire somebody on a salaried basis and it wants him or her to work in a primary care centre. We set out what the conditions of employment would be, what we want such people to do, we put a salary on it, and off we go. It does not have to be-----

That is something that obviously cannot be done next week, next month, or even next year, could it?

Mr. Robert Watt

No.

Why was it not done ten years ago?

Mr. Robert Watt

Deputy Shortall can tell me.

We know the answer to that.

I understand that from a policy perspective, the Government has to make a decision that it is going to do it. I appreciate that.

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not think we have any objections to it, of all the reforms that were pushed and all the things that were driven in the Department. It is certainly something we should-----

What might help is if Mr. Watt gave this committee a briefing note on who exactly in the Department and the HSE is looking at this, what meetings have taken place on it, what groundwork has been done, what concepts are out there generally, and if there are any timeframes as to when we might move in that direction. Would that be something that the committee could be furnished with?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, definitely. We can do that, Chair.

Okay. On a related issue, we are talking here about trying to decouple private activity from public care, and making sure that public patients have access to care. Maybe the head of the HSE, Mr. Gloster, might be able to take this one. We are seeing, at the moment, some private nursing homes saying that they may not take fair deal patients. There is a briefing for Oireachtas Members today from Nursing Homes Ireland regarding a PWC report on private capacity but again, the problem is that we are not building up public capacity. I looked at the latest public bed numbers versus private bed numbers. Private bed numbers have gone up, or private capacity. Public capacity has gone down in the last number of years. We are now at a point where some of those private providers are saying that they are not going to take fair deal patients because they are not happy with the subvention they are getting under the nursing homes support scheme. Two things need to happen. We need to fix that, on the one hand, which I would imagine is going to cost money, and we also need to increase public capacity. What is happening in that space? I ask because find that in a lot of these areas in primary and community care, we have become almost solely reliant on the private sector and then when problems arise for public patients, the State and the Government is over a barrel in some respects and we cannot seem to deliver. Maybe Mr. Gloster can outline to us what is going to happen in that space, because we are seeing some of these private nursing homes close, some of them threatening not to take public patients and I am not seeing the scaling-up in the public system, yet people need access to care.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will be very brief, because I am conscious of the Deputy's time. He is correct. With regard to public community nursing unit beds, our building programme and investment over the last couple of years has unfortunately - but it is what it is - been focused on regulatory compliance.

It is about building beds to replace beds that completely would not meet the standard - it is important that we meet the standards - and very often in that context beds get lost in that margin. There is no point in trying to deny that.

The focus of the next couple of years of the capital plan is to add to public capacity, because of the very point the Deputy is making. The dependency on care will still be there even if we introduce a statutory home care scheme. The dependency on residential care will still be there. I met the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, two weeks ago. Her specific ask of us and of the Department officials is to go beyond what we did in 2016, which was to look at a 50-bed model and 50-bed units, and to now look at look and see, without getting into institutionalisation, if we can look at going to 70-bed type units, and specifically within that in the public system to provide dedicated units within each unit for dementia-specific care, which is one of our bigger challenges. That is a significant part of what we are doing.

Did Mr. Watt want to come back in?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, Chair. I need a break now for ten or 15 minutes if the meeting is going to continue. I do not know what the Chairman's timeframe is.

There are three more speakers looking to come in. They will have eight minutes each, or maybe less. We will come to an end then. Is that okay or does Mr. Watt need a break?

Mr. Robert Watt

I need a break now, sorry.

Okay. We will break for 15 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 12.01 p.m. and resumed at 12.13 p.m.

One of the five pillars of Sláintecare relates to the question of removing cost as a barrier to access, and we have been talking about that in respect of a few different matters this morning. At the root of that is the fact there is no legal entitlement to healthcare, unlike an entitlement to, say, social protection. It was identified that we are unusual in this country in not having a legal entitlement to healthcare. There is the woolly concept of eligibility, whereby someone is eligible for a service if their income is low enough and if the service exists, but very often it does not or there are long waiting lists. Has any work been done to legislate for a legal entitlement to healthcare?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, not that I am aware of.

The slow, incremental increase in access, however, is not going to do it for us. The recommendation was that over the first five years of Sláintecare, we would move to free access. The whim of cutting a few bob here and there from each budget does not really do it. We need to start looking at what the legal entitlement to healthcare is for a resident of this country. I ask the Department to pay attention to that.

I raised privately with Mr. Watt the fact that in his opening statement, he referred to two sites in Dublin for elective hospitals. It is news to me that we are, potentially, talking about two elective hospitals in Dublin, which I would welcome. Will he fill us in on that? When are we likely to see them? Will there be one on the south side and one on the north side, and will one of them be prioritised over the other?

Mr. Robert Watt

These are matters the Government is going to have to decide. Recommendations will be brought to the Minister and the Government and they will sign off on them. We hope to do it before the summer break. There has been a site investigation-----

What is the thinking behind having two sites and splitting the provision rather having one that will cater for the demand that is there?

Mr. Robert Watt

I guess it is to deal with the transport constraints around the city, and the question of having one location that can meet the needs of both the north side and the south side or having-----

Where did this idea come from? It is new today to hear consideration is being given to providing two elective hospitals in the Dublin area.

Mr. Robert Watt

The policy has evolved over time. There is a need, not just in Dublin but in the wider east, where the population is expanding-----

Has it come at a political level or has the Department come to the conclusion on it?

Mr. Robert Watt

There are discussions all the time between officials and the Minister regarding various projects. It is led by a needs assessment of what we are seeing in the context of demand and access. The Department and our colleagues in the HSE have been working on what-----

Will the Department give us a background note on that? This is a new development it has announced today, and it would be good to know the thinking behind it.

Mr. Robert Watt

The Government will be making a decision. I understand the Minister will bring a memo to the Government and at that stage, he will make an announcement as to what he proposes to do with his colleagues. We can share the analysis or whatever at that point.

Has consideration been given to purchasing an existing private facility for an elective hospital in Dublin?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, I do not think so.

We have talked about this on several occasions previously. It is what was done in Edinburgh, where buying a private clinic was deemed the quickest and most effective way of providing proper elective services. Has that not been considered?

Mr. Robert Watt

Is the Deputy referring to the idea of buying a private hospital?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, there are no plans to buy a private hospital. I do not think any of them are for sale as individual places.

I asked whether consideration had been given to it.

Mr. Robert Watt

No. The plan is to-----

That is unfortunate, because it has been proposed several times.

I want to move on to an issue I referred to earlier, regarding the board of the HSE following Mr. Lenihan's departure, which is a matter of concern. He raised very significant issues for the Department and at a political level. I understand that since his departure, he has been replaced by someone who does not have the kind of accounting and auditing expertise he brought to the role, and particularly that he brought to the chairmanship of the audit and risk committee. Where now is the accounting and auditing expertise within the board of the HSE?

Mr. Robert Watt

I am not familiar with the qualifications of the members of the board. I understand the Minister intends for there to be a refreshment of the board. I think a number of the members are due to come to the end of their term over the next six or nine months------

Was Mr. Gloster notified of the new person being appointed to the board?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, the Minister notified us of a new appointment, but a pre-existing member of the board has ad interim taken up at least the chairmanship of the audit and risk committee and that person has a financial and accounting expertise and background.

Is that likely to continue or will there be a replacement?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is a matter for the chair and individual board members. To be fair, the audit and risk committee has not been left without a chair with a competent background since Mr. Lenihan made his decision, and I know the chair will be anxious to continue that. The board has a very good skill set.

Were any lessons learned from that? Was there an exit interview with Mr. Lenihan?

We do not have time for further questions. I call Deputy Lahart.

I raise the issue of pay for community pharmacists. A lot of community pharmacists in my constituency, some of whom are second generation, could raise a number of issues but one of them relates to the pay freeze of the past 15 years, as they see it.

It is resulting in a reduction in services. The Secretary General looked like the ball was hopped at him with respect to the national children's hospital and design and, therefore, I will give him an opportunity to reflect on it if he would like to say more about the design challenges. I heard something on the radio at the weekend. Someone also hopped a ball about it because of the time it is taking to build. I recall that by the time Tallaght University Hospital was completed 30 years ago, there were significant issues. Some of the equipment did not fit in it. I presume that was a completely different era.

The Swiftcare model is incredibly successful. I did not flag this question but I would be interested in the witnesses' views on it. We do not have a public version of Swiftcare, yet I suspect it takes a colossal volume of people away from emergency departments who have sprains and other injuries, for example on ankles. People have to pay for it and they only get it if they have private health insurance. The witnesses might answer that question.

Do not underestimate - I have said it before - the impact of free car parking at primary care centres. Do not even think about levying car parking. It is a great incentive for people to use it.

The chief executive officer mentioned at the end of questioning the last time we met that the Land Development Agency, LDA, had big eyes on the HSE's land bank. This question is for both witnesses. I thought it was an interesting concept. The HSE is open to discussions and positive about it - I hope I am paraphrasing him correctly - but, as CEO of the HSE, he would like to be able to leverage some of that potential, if it came to pass, for key healthcare workers.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will ask Mr. Healy to respond on the contract as he is involved in contracting.

Mr. Pat Healy

Regarding pharmacists, since just before the pandemic, we established a forum in which officials from the HSE meet the Irish Pharmacy Union, IPU and the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, PSI. We have productive engagement with them. It worked throughout the pandemic and the vaccination programme. More recently, we have had discussions with the Department. The Minister is anxious that there would be engagement between the HSE, the Department and pharmacists in the context of the issues the Deputy mentioned. I will work with colleagues in the Department on those meetings.

Mr. Healy might update us about that as it happens.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will respond briefly to the Deputy's other questions. We have Swiftcare-like units. We call them local injury units. We do not have enough of them but we do have them. Where we are able to stand them up and staff them - as we are in parts of the mid-west - they take a significant number of people away from emergency departments, who have such injuries as small sprains from trips and falls and so on.

I have no plans to interfere with parking charges in primary care centres. I do not know if something is going on there.

No. It is not coming from anywhere.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

With respect to the LDA, I will make no bones about it. I have a naked ambition that if it is taking land that was in the remit of the HSE to develop accommodation, I would like it to consider the accommodation needs of the healthcare workforce in that area. The same is done in industry when people build industrial parks and so forth.

I fully support Mr. Gloster on that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are very much of the view that if we are moving into the space of helping our staff to at least access accommodation - even if we are not spending a penny - and if the LDA is using what was traditionally HSE land, it should consider and comprehend the needs of the health service.

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank the Deputy. I do not have anything further to add to what Mr. Gloster said. The discussions on community pharmacies will be based on the facts of the situation. I agree with the comments about land banks. Absolutely if opportunities exist, we can avail of them. I do not have anything to add about the children's hospital.

I will come back to the issue of nursing homes. At a previous meeting, I raised the fact that the average cost of a public nursing home in the County Laois area is more than €2,550 per bed per week. A private nursing home only costs €1,000. The cost of a public nursing is €1,900. Has there been any examination of why the average cost of the three types of nursing home is so high in Laois?

The second issue relates to the referral of patients from nursing homes to hospitals. I understand that one of the hospitals in Dublin - if I am not mistaken it is St. Vincent's University Hospital - has a policy of sending a team to a nursing to assess patients before they will accept them into the hospital. I am wondering whether that pilot programme could be considered in other areas. In many cases, the care for patients who are being referred to hospitals could be provided in the nursing home if the proper advice was given to the staff. Is there a plan to look at that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

As I have said many times, the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, sets the rate for private nursing homes. Am I satisfied with the cost of public care? In general, I am, given the dependency level of our residents. We are also fixed with public sector staffing costs and other issues that drive some of the costs. I have looked at the issue in Abbeyleix and I am due to go there to meet people in the near future. One of the things driving the cost there is that it has a small number of residents but the staffing level still has to be maintained. I will not argue with the Deputy. It does appear to be high.

The example of St. Vincent's University Hospital is called emergency department in the home, EDITH. We have just given them a second car and we are hoping to give them a second team because the results are exceptional. In March, a consultant, a clinical nurse specialist, an advanced nurse practitioner and a therapist saw 250 people who were mostly in nursing homes. Of the 250 people they saw, they referred approximately 18 to hospital. Otherwise the 250 people would have come. Mr. Healy is looking at it with the integrated care of older persons teams which are all over the country now. There are 30 of them. From September, they, with their primary care colleagues, will be going into nursing homes to create hospital avoidance measures. I am hoping to give the Secretary General a three-year urgent care bid shortly and we hope to include an expansion of EDITH. It is a fantastic service. It is outstanding.

Absolutely, it is the way forward.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is absolutely the way it should be done.

The level of care that can be provided in a nursing home is every bit as good as in hospital, provided the proper advice is given to the staff.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to everybody, the consultant in St. Vincent's University Hospital who leads that is exceptional. He is exceptionally talented in and committed to that. We have to try to get emergency medicine consultants around the country who subscribe to the same view, but I think we will.

Can I raise one other issue? We have a huge challenge with home help at the moment. I have come across a number of people who are retired in the Cork region. Some 1,800 people were employed there by the HSE during the Covid-19 pandemic. We suddenly lost 400 people. Some of the people who retired and are receiving pensions have been advised that if they come back to work, their pensions will be affected. As a result, they have decided not to. Some would love to go back. The pensions involved are small but they have been advised that if they go back to work they will lose their pensions. I am wondering if that could be reviewed. We need these people. We have a huge challenge in the area of home help with a shortage in the allocation of people for home help at the moment.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The public pension rules are simple with respect to abatement. If people who are retired want to come back to work in a public sector related area, they can earn up to half what they previously earned without affecting their pensions. If they go over half, their pensions have to be abated. They are public pay policy rules. It is not a HSE rule. It applies to all public servants.

Could I get a note on that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

I have been looking for clarification of that. It would be helpful because I know a number of people who would not mind coming back to work. They want to provide the service but feel they are not being facilitated at the moment.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Provided they do not earn more than half of what they earned when they were working and do not have other social welfare dependencies that are means assessable, they can work half-time.

We also have to ensure that they are well enough, able and fit enough to be able to work.

I accept that.

Finally, where are we on trying to get more people to provide homecare?

It is about keeping people out of hospital. It has been very effective in providing that support.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are right in the middle of a tender completion process. The last time I was in, I was before the Committee of Public Accounts. There were difficulties widely reported and negotiations were stalled. To be fair, the Minister and the Secretary General made a very firm offer for the HSE to be able to go and make a very good offer to the home care providers across the country. Last Friday was the closing date for them to come back with questions on that. They came back with in excess of 80 questions, all of which we have answered. Now they have a small window in which to say whether they propose to sign up into the framework. If they do, there is a standstill period of two weeks but we will backdate it for anyone that takes it on.

We have a difficulty, in very simple terms and no more than the discussion the Secretary General had about staff recruited from abroad, in that our dependency on the provider sector in home support is too high at 62%. I would rather have a higher rate of public provision but that will take time to build. This year we are hoping to get to the 22 million hours targeted. We are hoping to get there. We are certainly short of it at the moment but we are ahead of the number of people we are trying to provide it to. This means we are probably trying to spread the service too thinly in some cases. Hopefully, in the next week or two we will have a firm conclusion. Home care providers have been given a significantly reasonable offer.

It is short of what was recommended.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am trying to find the right phrase. I am conscious that the Deputy is across me because she had done an extensive radio interview on this the last time I was here. I assure the committee that the offer is by no means mealy-mouthed.

It does not provide for what was in the expert report.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I know. There are lots of expert reports that I would love to be able to provide for but in fairness-----

The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, was out promising a living wage. It was promised.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

When I came into the job, to be fair, I recommended to the Minister a particular rate to settle the matter. To be fair to the Minister and the Secretary General, they came back with that.

It is not the living wage though.

I think we have come to the end and we have run out of time. I thank the representatives from the Department of Health and from the HSE for their engagement with the committee on the important matter of the implementation of Sláintecare reforms. The committee will continue to engage with the matter of Sláintecare and we look forward to the next meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.33 p.m. until 4 p.m on Tuesday, 20 June 2023.
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