Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 22 May 2024

Employment of Consultants and Non-consultant Hospital Doctors in Public Hospitals: Irish Medical Organisation

Before we get to the main item on today's agenda, the minutes of the committee meetings of 14 and 15 May 2024 have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to consider issues relating to the employment of consultants and non-consultant hospital doctors in public hospitals with representative from the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO. I am pleased to welcome Ms Susan Clyne, chief executive officer, Professor Matthew Sadlier, chair of the IMO consultant committee, Dr. Rachel McNamara, chair of the IMO non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHD, committee, Dr. Peadar Gilligan, IMO consultant committee, and Ms Vanessa Hetherington, assistant director.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside of the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members participating via MS Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution.

To commence our consideration of the issues relating to the employment of consultants and non-consultant hospital doctors in public hospitals, I invite Ms Clyne to make her opening remarks on behalf of the Irish Medical Organisation.

Ms Susan Clyne

I thank the Chair and committee members for the invitation. Doctors go into work each and every day with the objective of doing the job for which they have trained and to give their patients the best possible treatment. Unfortunately, the system in which they work does not enable them to meet that objective and, in many cases, actually puts in place obstacles that stop them meeting it. Ultimately, this has a negative effect on both patients and doctors.

The consistent narrative of record levels of health budgets and additional numbers of staff employed in the health services masks the reality of the demands on the health service and the deficits in funding for well over a decade. While the health service, like all public services, must provide value for money, it must be funded, in the first instance, appropriately to meet the needs of a growing and ageing population, and that is simply not the case currently.

Population growth and living longer are to be celebrated and supported, but it must be recognised that they have an impact on our health services as more patients seek care. That care is more complex and very often more expensive. Our health service has not matched that population growth in terms of physical capacity or increasing the workforce to the numbers required to meet the demand. The mantra of doing more with less and the call on healthcare staff to do better in the absence of appropriate funding are both insulting and demoralising.

Decades of underfunding in capacity, poor policy decisions around recruitment and retention and a lack of a coherent workforce plan have led to a system that is struggling to deliver care in a timely manner.

The provision of healthcare, if it is to be free at the point of entry for all citizens, has to be funded on the principle of demand and supply whereby we assess the healthcare needs of the population and supply the healthcare staff and facilities to meet those needs. Otherwise, we have to be honest with the population about what we cannot fund and what is available to them in terms of healthcare. These underlying systemic issues around capacity and recruitment are not theoretical issues. They have real-life consequences for patients, and for doctors, they are the background to the reality of their working lives every day.

There is no argument that decades of underfunding have led to a situation where we have too few acute hospital beds. In very many cases, this is the core of the problem. We need an additional 5,000 acute hospital beds over a relatively short period. This lack of bed capacity is most visible when it comes to the dangerous year-round levels of overcrowding in our emergency departments. The practice of boarding patients on trolleys - patients who have been deemed ill enough to be admitted - is dangerous for the patient and unsustainable for the staff working in emergency departments.

Ireland has a quoted hospital bed occupancy rate of in excess of 97%, which is in and of itself dangerous. However, the actual occupancy rate often exceeds 105% and, in some cases, goes beyond 110%. For the patients in emergency departments, this has an immediate effect in that they cannot get a bed when they need it. However, it also has a consequence for all other patients in the system who are awaiting elective or scheduled care and whose care is routinely cancelled due to a lack of bed capacity, leading to risk of poorer health outcomes.

Across a wide number of specialties, consultants are appointed, some to new posts and some to vacant posts. This is really welcome. However, very often, particularly with new appointments, they are not provided with the basic supports to enable them to do their job. It is not unusual for a consultant to be appointed with no administrative support, no medical team assigned on a permanent basis, no office, insufficient or no clinic times, insufficient or no theatre times and challenges in accessing diagnostics. It is important to know that a consultant does not operate independently. The consultants require the rest of the system to be in place to enable them.

Consultants are consistently battling in a highly bureaucratic system to get basic resources and are very often seen as cost centres, and judged as cost centres, rather than an asset that requires the support to enable them to see and treat patients. At the end of April 2024, there were 828,605 patients waiting on a National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, waiting list. Almost 700,000 have yet to receive a date for their appointment or procedure. Even after patients receive their appointment, however, the inevitable next challenge is finding the resources to deliver the care they need whether that be admission, surgery, diagnostics or follow-up.

Rather than invest in our public hospitals and provide all the wraparound supports needed, the system will very often choose the alternative pathway of diverting those patients into the private system. Even when we take the capacity of the private and the public system, it is still not sufficient to meet the demand. We have been talking for more than a decade about bed capacity. There is no alternative. There is no sustainable or realistic alternative but to significantly ramp up investment in our public system. This is a choice for the political system. It is not okay to blame doctors or other people working in the health system for not being able to deliver care when they have not been provided with the resources to do so.

For both consultants and NCHDs, the failure to invest in capacity means that each and every day, they are fighting against the system to access care for their patients. They leave work feeling demoralised and frustrated. To compound matters, regular out-of-context reports are made by the employer or the political system around productivity levels, overtime payments and black holes of spending, all leading to a feeling that they are neither valued or respected. This, in turn, has led to very worrying levels of burnout among doctors. More than 80% of doctors are at very high risk of burnout. The most worrying part of this is our NCHDs, who are at the early stage of their careers and should not be experiencing burnout to the levels at which they are. That burnout is a direct consequence of the way in which they are being asked to work and the environment in which they have to work.

It is not necessarily higher incomes that drive emigration. Australia, Canada, North America, New Zealand and the UK are targeting Irish-trained doctors. They know what the problem is here, so they offer a solution for those doctors. They tell people come and work for them and they will have a work-life balance, be able to treat their patients and be able to thrive in this system. They absolutely know what the problems are and they know the solutions.

In terms of recruitment, it is ironic that we are speaking today about employment issues for doctors seven months into a recruitment embargo. It is inconceivable that such an embargo is in place at a time when we need more doctors, not less, and at a time when there is a global shortage of doctors. The message Ireland is sending out to the world is that we are not hiring.

For our NCHDs, the recruitment freeze has had a real day-to-day impact. There is an increase in Illegal and unsafe working hours, with 83% of NCHDs routinely working beyond 48 hours per week. This is illegal in terms of the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997. It is also unsafe for patients and it is a breach of contractual entitlements. This risk and illegality is embedded into the system. It has been accepted. We have threatened to strike. We have had three High Court actions and yet it is not a priority for the HSE to fulfill its legal obligations as an employer to not have people routinely work for more than 48 hours per week. It is unsafe for patients. We are introducing a level of risk to what is already a risk environment.

The day before the recruitment freeze was announced, the HSE advised the IMO that it would take targeted recruitment of up to 800 additional NCHDs to bring working hours to legal and safe levels. We left that meeting thinking there was a commitment to finally sorting this out. The next day, a recruitment embargo was announced. It is reported that 68% of NCHDs are not getting sufficient rest. They are working beyond ten consecutive days, very often without any compensatory pay or additional rest days in almost half of these cases. This is a contractual term that was brought in to reduce risk for the NCHDs and improve work-life balance. NCHDs are doctors in training. They are allowed a tiny amount of time - ten days study leave every six months - to undertake study and mandatory exams. In accountancy, for example, three months in any year is given to trainees. Figures show that 65% of NCHDs in the past year have not been able to take that study leave because of staff shortages, and 77% are pressurised to do extra shifts. This pressure is both overt and more subtle. It is not unusual for NCHDs to get a text to tell them not to let their colleagues down and do this extra shift. The NCHDs are being gaslit. They are being made to feel it is their fault and they must do something to provide extra shifts. Amazingly, the HSE cannot provide a guarantee that those NCHDs going on maternity cover will be replaced. Instead, what happens in most cases is that the rest of the team picks up all the extra on-call shifts, extra weekends and extra nights.

In 2022, an NCHD strike was averted. An agreement was reached between the IMO, the Department of Health and the HSE. The core principles of that agreement were around reducing working hours and making it safer for doctors to practice and safer for patients. On every single metric, the HSE has breached that agreement. I cannot stress enough that it is illegal. We do not allow airline pilots, taxi drivers, bus drivers or lorry drivers to work these hours. Yet, we think doctors in a high-risk environment should be working them.

Earlier this year, the Minister launched the report of the task force on NCHDs and while we welcome many of the recommendations therein, we need to see change now. We need to see good faith from the Government and the HSE that they will honour contractual entitlements. No one should be appearing before a health committee asking for their contract to be honoured. That should be a given. No one should be before the health committee asking the Government and the HSE to follow legislation. That should be a given. However, here we are again asking them please honour their contract entitlements. We are going into new contract talks on the coming weeks, but we are doing so in an environment where there is not good faith in how the employer will behave.

NCHDs are our future consultants. This is the group of doctors we are relying on to look after us all in the years ahead. Yet, 75% of them do not feel valued or respected by the employer. In any other industry, that would set off alarm bells. Key management people would be brought to answer as to how and why this was happening and what will be done to solve it. A workforce needs to be treated as an asset, not as a liability. There are almost 9,000 NCHDs in the public health system. In terms of those who are in service posts, that is, doctors who are not in approved training posts, 80% are from outside of Ireland.

These doctors, who have made Ireland their home and without whom the health system could not function, are not treated equitably in terms of career progression. They, too, leave the system disillusioned with working conditions and the lack of training and career opportunities. Irish Medical Council figures show that, on average, international doctors spend six years on the register. They are frequently here on critical skills permits or multi-site general employment permits, and while they have the opportunity to apply for their family to join them, that system is so protracted and difficult they can go up to a year without their family. We have actively recruited these doctors and we need them. We cannot afford them to leave and we want them to stay, yet we will not help them have their family with them. Working as an NCHD in a hospital is not an easy task and the idea you do not even have your family to go home to makes it worse.

While the number of consultants employed in the HSE has increased, we are coming from a really low base. The number of consultants employed still falls far below the number required for a consultant-delivered service. Ireland has one of the lowest consultant-patient ratios in the OECD. Of approximately 4,500 approved consultant posts, just 3,700 are filled on a permanent basis, yet we need 6,000 consultants to provide care to patients. In some specialties, including many of the surgical specialties and psychiatry, the number of consultants employed is up to 50% below the recommended levels. This leads to long waiting lists. The committee has examined CAMHS waiting lists. There is a rationale and it relates to beds and workforce. It will keep coming back to those core issues. We can come up with lots of things to make things better for a day or two but the core issues are beds and workforce requirement.

The new public-only consultant contract became effective in March 2023 and to date 2,229 consultants are on that contract; 470 of those are new appointments since March 2023 and the balance have transferred from existing contracts. The new contract provides for the Sláintecare objective of removing private practice from public hospitals and for rostering consultants over an extended working day and week. However, the new contract will not in and of itself solve the chronic problems in the health service regarding capacity and workforce requirements. It is not realistic to infer the health service will see tangible benefits if the same number of consultants are consistently rostered outside normal working hours. With the deficits in our workforce, there is no room for manoeuvre. There is no resilience in the system. We are adopting a policy of robbing Peter to pay Paul: “Come and work on a Saturday but you won’t be working on Monday, so therefore the clinic that was scheduled for Monday will not happen.” If we want the rosters to work as envisaged, we have to put in place all the staff, not just the consultants, and all the resources and services at the same time. We are miles from this and there is no point pretending otherwise.

Through the winter, the focus has been on discharges at weekends and consultants have been going in. That is unsustainable in the long term without recruiting a huge number of consultants. It is important to point out that, no matter what contract a consultant is on, whether the 2023 public-only contract or one of the existing contracts, every consultant has an on-call commitment. A consultant service is provided through the night and at weekends. Additionally, many consultants now have to provide cross-cover for colleagues for annual leave, sick leave – whether short or extended - and other absences as, in most instances, locums are not provided. The consultant is then taking on their colleague’s workload.

Covid exposed the fragility of our health service. There was nobody in the country who did not realise beds were a problem during Covid. Endless promises were made. We and other organisations came before this committee and the Covid committee and made submissions around the issue of beds. We asked and the Government promised to significantly ramp up investment in capacity in the workforce. Unfortunately, the level of investment is not matching demand and at best we are running to stand still. The budget allocation for the HSE this year is already overrun. We said at the time that budget would not be sufficient to allow the services to continue, let alone introduce new services. There are stark choices. There are solutions but it is a political choice as to whether those solutions will be adopted. There are no solutions that are free. Putting infrastructure and workforce into a health system is a significant investment for society but it brings benefits. Health needs less to be seen as a cost to the country and more as a benefit to enable the country in its economic journey and growth. We are happy to answer any questions and we thank the committee members for their time.

I thank the witnesses for attending. Ms Clyne paints a bleak picture. One thing that struck me in Ms Clyne's statement was that people feel pressurised into working extra shifts they are not rostered for when they have already maxed out their time commitment. That leads to the assumption there could be patient safety issues. Are the witnesses aware of any examples where, as a result of the pressure NCHDs are under to work extra shifts, patient safety has been compromised? That would appear to be the end result of all this. It is unacceptable that people would be treated this way and essentially peer-pressured into working unsafe hours.

Ms Susan Clyne

I will ask my colleague, Dr. McNamara, to respond in full but it is not peer pressure. It is not pressure from other NCHDs. I want to be clear about that. It is pressure from the system.

I would assume that, yes.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

What was described is not an isolated or one-off incident in many of our careers. We have reports that up to 77% of NCHDs regularly experience this pressure when they have already been rostered beyond legal and safe limits and then the text comes through in the evening or at night that there is no option and locum cover cannot be obtained. They are told it is down to them to fill the shift or their colleagues will be put under enormous pressure.

On the question of how it impacts on patient safety, of course it does. People are going around exhausted. It is highly unsafe. I have worked shifts where I have barely been able to keep my eyes open. That is commonplace. We have people who start work on a Friday morning and do not finish until the following Monday. They work 72 hours. Some of that might be at home but often they have just crawled into bed and are asked to get out of it again. It is not for us to comment on individual cases. That is for various inquests and ongoing investigations to decide.

It is fair to say there have been issues where patient safety has been compromised as a result of this.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

We say every time that we are not doing this purely so doctors can have loads of time off and holidays, although that is enormously important. This is a patient safety issue and the problem is it is not being prioritised. The objective of the 2022 agreement was to bring working hours back to legal and safe limits. It was acknowledged in the context of that agreement we needed 800 additional NCHDs to be recruited in order to roster people safely. Immediately, a recruitment embargo came into place. There is no way the agreement we brokered in 2022 can be upheld. It has demolished trust with the NCHD population, which is nearly three quarters of the doctors in the country. The Senator is absolutely right. Of course it is a contributing factor.

Sadly, it is possible that people have lost their lives as a result of-----

Ms Susan Clyne

We can absolutely say it compromises patient care but, without being disrespectful, that question would need to be directed to the HSE.

Sure. While we are talking about the HSE, Ms Clyne mentioned the recruitment embargo in her opening statement.

It is very concerning that the HSE gave the IMO a commitment literally the day before the recruitment embargo was put in place. Will Ms Clyne speak a little bit more to the timeline and exactly what happened because that is a total breach of trust? It is very worrying.

Ms Susan Clyne

Unfortunately, we in the IMO are very used to commitments being broken by the HSE across all contracts.

When was the last time the IMO met the Minister?

Ms Susan Clyne

We met the Minister at our AGM in April. I also mentioned in the statement that the Minister has published the report from the task force on NCHDs. On the Senator's question, following the threat of an NCHD strike in 2022, we entered into an agreement with the HSE. That agreement became effective in January 2023. There was a lot of back and forth on how we would verify people's working hours and the sanctions that would be put in place for the hospitals that breached those hours. Everyone accepts that, as the HSE indicated, NCHD numbers have significantly increased over recent years but that has been driven by service demand. It was not driven by a plan to reduce working hours. The NCHDs themselves have said they believe approximately 800 NCHDs, targeted at specific areas, are required to bring working hours back down. They note that this number is unverified but have stuck to it. Everyone at that meeting acknowledged that was the case so the next morning was a shock to the system. Deputy Cullinane had contacted the chief executive of the HSE that morning. It was a shock to the system to learn that this recruitment embargo had been put in place. On NCHDs and the recruitment embargo, I will make the point that the embargo does not save a penny. If you stop hiring NCHDs, the job does not go away. The other NCHDs just have to do overtime.

I am conscious of time and I want to talk to Ms Clyne about UHL. Why is the take-up of the new consultant contract lower in UHL than in any other region in the country? Is there a reason for that?

Ms Susan Clyne

Whether to take up the new contract is an individual choice.

I know that but surely Ms Clyne has a view on it.

Ms Susan Clyne

The consultants in UHL, who know about the capacity and staffing problems in the hospital and who serve the population they do, may have a lack of trust in the hospital's ability to implement the terms of the new contract. There are issues around that. UHL simply does not have the capacity to meet the demands of the population it serves.

There is a HIQA review into emergency capacity in the region taking place at the moment. I am not sure whether the terms of reference will allow the IMO to make a submission but, as somebody who represents the mid-west, I am curious as to the organisation's view on what should be done regarding emergency capacity at UHL.

Ms Susan Clyne

The reason there is a problem in UHL has to be acknowledged. That is the whole reconfiguration-----

I can tell you the reason for that.

Ms Susan Clyne

It is the reconfiguration.

It is because the reconfiguration happened and the capacity was not put in place. That is history. What I want to know is the IMO's view on what can and should be done to resolve it.

Ms Susan Clyne

We have to build up capacity in the region but we have to make sure it is built up in a safe way. There is no point in opening an emergency department that is not safe and fit for purpose or that cannot be staffed. My colleague, Professor Sadlier, might speak a little on that.

Before he does, is it the view of the IMO that capacity should be built on the campus of UHL rather than opening additional emergency departments in Ennis, Nenagh or anywhere else?

Ms Susan Clyne

No, the IMO does not have a view. The group is looking at that. We want to have enough capacity in every system. However, to-----

With respect, I think the IMO should have a view on it.

Ms Susan Clyne

I accept that point.

It is a very serious situation if the IMO does not have a view on how to build emergency capacity in the mid-west.

Ms Susan Clyne

We do have a view on what should happen in respect of the capacity within the system. I will let Professor Sadlier answer the point because it is a complex issue.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

We do have a view, which is that there should be safe emergency care for the people of the country and the people of the mid-west. We do not have a view on which hospital should be used and how it should be configured. That is a question for the HSE. Since I graduated 25 years ago, medicine has become much more complicated but the survival rates and the treatment of many conditions have improved greatly. I will take stroke care as a very simple example. When I graduated in 1999, if somebody had a stroke, there was largely no intervention to preserve brain tissue. Now, we try to use anticoagulant therapy and clot-melting therapy - that is probably not the best term but it is the only one that comes to my brain - to reverse clots and save brain tissue so that people can have much better functional recoveries. However, that requires intensive medical input. You need an emergency department that is able to provide such care. You also need an emergency department that is able to provide somebody who has had a cardiovascular event with an angiogram or angioplasty within a certain timeframe. The sooner that is done, the more of the person's heart function will be saved and the more likely it is that the person's life will be saved. Opening emergency departments that do not have the necessary facilities, something that is basically just a barn with the word "hospital" over it and where doctors have minimal equipment, support staff and investigation capacity, is not going to help the health of the people of Ireland. It may help waiting times but it is a false economy. Where those departments should be is not our call but we need to be able to provide proper medical care to the citizens of Ireland and to be able to make sure that, when somebody arrives to hospital with a serious medical condition, it can be treated.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

I will speak on this, if I may. I thank Senator Conway for the question. I am an emergency medicine physician and I am conscious of the fact that the situation in Limerick is very challenging. However, the situation in every emergency department in Ireland is challenging. The reason for that is the lack of capacity in the system. I have visited Limerick and the sense there is that at least 400 additional beds are needed within the acute hospital system in the Limerick area to serve the population of that area. The issue of crowding manifests within the emergency department but it is a function of a lack of ability to move patients through the system in a timely manner. Additional step-down facilities and rehabilitation facilities are also needed in the region. Speaking conservatively, I would say that an additional 400 beds and the associated staffing are required to serve the needs of the population as things stand.

I will make the point that a representative of the IMO attended the meeting yesterday.

Ms Susan Clyne

That is correct. It was an emergency department consultant.

I welcome our witnesses. I will start with the working hours for junior doctors. We have been talking about this issue for a long time. As we know, there was a report and it made recommendations but it is still a big issue. I know it is in the opening statement but will the witnesses clarify again that doctors working beyond the 48 hours is illegal in that it breaches the Act? The first thing we should say is that we are asking doctors to work where doing so is a clear breach of legislation.

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes.

That is a failure of the political system. Doctors cannot be blamed for that. We are asking them to work long hours in contravention of their rights. There is a question of moral injury and pressure being put on doctors to come in to work additional hours because we do not have capacity and, now, because of the recruitment embargo. I will come to that in a minute. It is self-evident that, if some doctors are working 60, 70 or 80 hours a week, which seems to be the norm, while the vast majority are working more than 48 hours a week, patient safety will be compromised. We cannot pinpoint every individual incident but we know there have been many incidents in hospitals where mistakes have been made. There are then inquests, reports, reviews and all of that. We can generally say that, if doctors are working the hours they are now working, it will increase the risk to patient safety. It is not just an issue for the doctors themselves as regards the pressure it puts on them, but it is also a real risk for patients.

We should say that from the outset. Obviously, it needs to be resolved.

Could I ask a follow-on question, on the issue of working ten consecutive days without a rest, because it is not just about the hours? The legislation and good practice indicate no doctor should work for more than ten consecutive days. Are they doing so?

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. Since the agreement was reached, the HSE has paid out over €1 million in compensatory rest payments. We know that only 50% of doctors have got their payments. This is now embedded in the system. The HSE takes the financial hit. Rather than treat the hours as a priority and put in place systems to allow doctors to take appropriate rest, it has factored in the cost of allowing them to work without rest.

This, to me, is astounding. Essentially, what has happened is that the HSE and, I suppose, the Government have decided that, rather than fixing the problem, they will just pay for it. I would imagine the payment was meant to be some sort of punitive measure to penalise hospitals-----

Ms Susan Clyne

Exactly.

-----but it seems the HSE is saying it will write a cheque rather than deal with the issue.

Ms Susan Clyne

On that point, the HSE knows the NCHD population is transient. They tend to move on every six months. Even what the HSE pays is not representative of the true figure because it never really pays NCHDs in full for the working hours they endure. The HSE does not consider working hours to be a priority. The European working time directive was introduced in 2004. Since then, the IMO has taken the HSE to the High Court on three separate occasions. It has threatened a strike and reached an agreement. There are real sanctions in the agreement. The Deputy is absolutely correct that we insisted on penalties in the hope the system would not pay them and would actually allow people to work safe hours, but now the HSE just chooses to pay the penalties. It is easier.

There is just so much we could say about this but it is well covered in the opening statement from the IMO representatives. We have been dealing with this issue for far too long. There needs to be political will to deliver on it because we cannot just continue to ask junior doctors to work the hours they are working, with all the risks entailed for them and their patients. I would imagine there are some in training who will say to themselves that they will leave and do something else if this is not resolved.

Ms Susan Clyne

Absolutely. Dr. McNamara can speak to this from personal experience.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

Let me clarify the position on the ten days. The period was brought into the agreement because we wanted to make sure that if you were working for ten days in a row, you would be guaranteed not to be working on the 11th day. The 11th is an unpaid rest day; it is just compensation for having to work ten days in a row. From our studies, we have learned that nearly 70% of people report that what should be happening is not happening for them. We have clear, cold evidence that, in the statutory hospitals alone, over €1 million in compensatory rest payments have been paid out. The measure has not been invoked in the order of 100%.

The mood on the ground is absolutely desperate. We heralded the agreement as a really significant step in eradicating the problem but immediately it was turned around and not implemented. As Ms Clyne said, it has not been implemented by any metric. When you see there is no follow-through on measures like this, it just erodes trust. Some 80% of our interns, once they complete medical school, leave to go to the likes of Australia and New Zealand. When there is a recruitment embargo in place, when agreements are being breached and when there is no guarantee of rest, you are not going to come back. We have evidence that the work–life balance is so much better in the likes of Australia. Why would you come back? So many are leaving. It is way too tempting to stay in a system that will support you and in which you will have a life and be able to deliver the care you want to deliver without putting people at risk because you are too tired or not supported to deliver care appropriately.

I thank Dr. McNamara for that.

I just want to come back to the issue of hospital capacity because Mr. Gilligan spoke about a range of issues in this regard that are causing problems in emergency departments. It is very frustrating for me when I hear Government representatives asking what the problems are in Limerick. I heard this again a few minutes ago. We have been told time and again what the problems are. It is not rocket science and we know what needs to be done. I hear the Minister trying to shift the responsibility back onto staff, consultants, management or whoever else he feels is to blame. The simple reality, which we were told as Oireachtas committee members when we visited UHL, is that every single day there are patients deemed sick enough to be admitted to a bed but for whom there is none. I would imagine this occurs not only in Limerick but also in every acute hospital. The circumstances are particularly difficult at the moment in Limerick. You cannot blame anybody else for what is happening. The blame has to be accepted by the political system, by those in charge or by the Government for not putting the beds in place. Dr. Gilligan is right. I have been in every hospital in the State but I have been in Limerick on four occasions. When I was in Limerick, I listened to consultants, doctors, nurses, radiographers and everybody I could possibly meet. I also listened to healthcare trade union representatives and anybody and everybody who would talk to me. They all say we need more beds and that while patient flow needs to be improved, you have to put in the diagnostic capacity and all the ancillary supports. You cannot just hire consultants if there is an embargo. All the support staff, radiographers and junior doctors are subject to an embargo. How does that make any sense? The issues of step-down and recovery beds and community care are all part of the solution. It is really frustrating for me, although I would say it is even more frustrating for people who live in the mid-west, when Government representatives ask what needs to be done when it has been clear for a long time. I want to ask one question on this. A problem has been reported to me but I am not sure how prevalent it is. Are the delegates aware of instances in which patients have had their entire treatment experience on a hospital trolley?

Ms Susan Clyne

That is not unusual. Perhaps Dr. Gilligan will speak about that. Their entire treatment-----

I mean people on trolleys who, after having been seen by a doctor, never see a bed-----

Ms Susan Clyne

And discharged from that trolley.

Could Dr. Gilligan respond to that?

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

Absolutely. The safety implications of having fatigued doctors are well recognised and published. The safety implications concerning the lack of capacity and crowding in the system are definitely well described in the literature. For example, we know that a patient attending with a heart attack or stroke will have his or her treatment delayed. Patients attending with a severe infection will have treatment delayed, as will patients suffering from polytrauma, if there is no available trolley. There are all too many cases in the country of patients arriving at emergency departments where there is no available space. In the hospital in which I work, I frequently have to move out of our critical care area patients who are not yet ready to be moved out, just because of the pressure on that area. There are definitely safety implications for patients nationally as a result of the lack of capacity.

We need to see a roadmap concerning the 5,000 additional beds the system needs. We need a commitment that is evident to all and addressed in a timely manner. God knows - we have been saying this for long enough - that the patients of Ireland have suffered for long enough, and the doctors, nursing staff and all the allied health professionals who are trying to provide services in very crowded circumstances have put up with it for long enough. Therefore, we need the capacity to improve the safety of patient care.

I thank those who work in the system for their work and the IMO for its advocacy. I will leave it at that.

Ms Susan Clyne

Let me come back to the point on someone who is admitted to an emergency department and put on a trolley. The medical team will be called down to look for that patient. His or her whole episode of care can take place beside the toilet in a corridor for three or four days – this is quite prevalent in Limerick – and he or she will be discharged from the emergency department after treatment.

I want to finish on that. Very similar testimonies were heard in the Aoife Johnston inquest. I am concerned about the lack of dignity and respect for patients. If a doctor comes to you to talk about your medical experience in front of other patients on hospital trolleys, it is self-evident that there is a lack of dignity. Following this session, we need to follow up on all these issues with the HSE because they are so important to patient safety. I thank the delegates again for their time today.

It probably would not be unusual for somebody to be left in a chair for his or her treatment, never mind a trolley.

Ms Susan Clyne

It is probably considered luxury by a patient.

Deputy Hourigan is next.

I want to return to the working hours issue. The IMO is reviewing, with its own members, the numbers. I am trying to understand the data issue and how reliable the data is. There has been discussion in previous years around how much we can rely on the data that the HSE both records and receives, and that when there is union action, that has an impact on it. It seems that there have been examples of the HSE recording rostered hours rather than the hours that truly were worked. I am under the impression that since November last, the HSE was under a requirement from the European working time directive to undertake some serious work on that data collection. Does the IMO know whether that is happening? Are the IMO's members reporting that it is happening? Is the HSE communicating that it is happening to them?

Ms Susan Clyne

Under the agreement that the IMO reached in terms of the NCHDs in 2022, the data has to be verified and collected. It is the verification part of that data that we have concerns about.

There is a group set up in the HSE that is looking at this. We were at a meeting with that group last week. They are having real difficulties getting the data.

The data is corresponding with our numbers. There are breaches and no one is disputing these working hours-----

For the record, neither I am disputing the working hours the IMO is reporting.

Ms Susan Clyne

The problem with the data and the way in which we collect our data is that, because we do not have a centralised pay system for NCHDs, they are shifting every six months. They are different pay records. We do not have a centralised pay system. We do not have a time management system. We do not have a clock-in-and-clock-out system. Therefore, we are not gathering the accurate data.

The only real proof of how long an NCHD is working is by his or her pay packet. That is presuming that they have been paid properly in the first place, which, often, they are not in which case they will have to make several visits to HR and payroll to get paid.

Would that also be varied by payments due to this ten-day breach?

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. We know that 50% of them have been paid for the ten-day breach. They have made their claim and been paid. The other 50% has not been paid. They will have to go back, send six emails and call the IMO - we will have to send another six emails - to get paid.

This is also something that is built into the system. When NCHDs move on from a hospital, the hospital they are in very often saves money because once they are gone, they will not be making that claim. People want to get on and sometimes they simply do not have the time.

The HSE is reporting that it put that verification process in place last November which means that, as a committee, we could be looking theoretically at six months of data if we so chose.

Ms Susan Clyne

Theoretically, but there is not a complete set of data. The HSE will cite issues with the gathering of the data.

None of us has seen any signs of this verification process to show that the hospitals, which, it sounds from what Ms Clyne is describing, are effectively self-reporting into a system, whether it be paper records or by email. We have not seen any of that verification process to show that reporting of rostering is not still an issue.

Ms Susan Clyne

In fairness, that is less of an issue. We did see some data, but it is incomplete data in that it is from less than 50% of the system and less than all the reported sites.

The shift now is that a few years ago, the HSE consistently said it was 100% compliant because it was reporting rosters. It has moved to say it is not compliant but the problem is it has not moved to say it will do something about the fact that it is not compliant.

I will expand on the 48 hours because we are starting to talk about it as though it is a standard whereas, in fact, it is meant to operate as a maximum.

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes, over a three-month period.

What are the standard hours?

Ms Susan Clyne

The standard in the public service is 39 hours for NCHDs.

So it is meant to be 39 hours.

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes.

Beyond the 48 hours, what is the highest number of hours that has been reported to Ms Clyne by an individual?

Ms Susan Clyne

Over 100 hours. As Dr. McNamara says, for those, particularly in the surgical specialties, who are on call for 72 hours, that is not unusual.

Seventy-two hours is not unusual and over 100 hours is up there.

Ms Susan Clyne

It can be. It is up there, yes.

How many days over the ten days has somebody worked on the trot?

Dr. Rachel McNamara

In excess of 20 days.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

To reference a few people whom I have spoken to recently, it is regularly 18 or 19 days. I have seen it quite frequently in emergency departments - just that environment consistently for 18 or 19 days in a row.

When you get to the end of that 18 or 19 days, you are not necessarily talking about, let us say, a week off. You are talking about maybe a couple of days off.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

Yes, even a day.

A day and then back for that, maybe, again.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

Yes. That person would probably end up going out on leave. That would not be sustainable in the main but it is definitely not uncommon.

Has the IMO any communication from the HSE about when its representatives might be able to sit down and see some of that data?

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. There is a national oversight group. We are on it. We were at a meeting last week. We saw some of the data but the data is incomplete. We strongly believe as an organisation that until we go in, sanction and fine the hospitals, nothing will happen.

I suppose I am asking if there no agreement that at a certain point, say, eight months, ten months or 12 months in, a report will be issued, because an incomplete piece of data is not verifiable in any sense.

Ms Susan Clyne

Exactly. The agreement is that they provide these on a monthly basis and we look at it over three months. The reference period is three months. After three months' gathering of data, you can look at that site and say that people are supposed to be working 48 hours a week on average over three months and whether this site is compliant or not. Invariably, it will not be compliant.

Does the membership of that oversight committee include the Medical Council?

Ms Susan Clyne

No. This is an oversight committee between the IMO and the HSE and the Department of Health.

In the discussion around that 48-hour working directive, has the Medical Council been involved?

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. The Medical Council is very strong on safety and hours but that was brought in by virtue of the European working time directive. Then there was legislation enacted into Irish law, the Organisation of Working Time Act.

Is the Medical Council parsing the data in the way that the IMO is?

Ms Susan Clyne

Not that I know of, no.

As my time is not up, I will raise one more topic, if that is okay.

I want to go back to that issue of critical skills and people being able to bring their families here. The IMO was saying that it seems fairly standard now that people are waiting for up to a year. I am sure that there are people waiting far longer than that in some instances. Something that jumped out at me is that they are waiting a year for a decision but, I believe, the rejection rate is quite high. What is it?

Ms Susan Clyne

We know in some cases where they have been rejected. The issue is these are critical skills. We have asked them to come. In many cases, model 3 hospitals would simply close without them. That is a fact. Unless we do something to support them and to bring their families to them quicker and treat them with the respect that they deserve, there will be ongoing issues. A few of the international doctors have resigned and left because of not being able to bring their family here with them.

Of course, one would do so if one cannot be with one's family in the long term.

Ms Susan Clyne

Absolutely. If you have not seen your family or small children for that time, of course you will leave and go back to see them.

It seems extraordinary. When we give a person a particular type of visa, there would be an expectation. It is reasonable for that person to have an expectation that his or her family would be able to join him or her on that visa. Is there communication between the IMO and the Department on why those issues might be arising?

Ms Susan Clyne

We are seeking a meeting with the Department of Justice to see can we fast-track and address those family issues and those reunifications for our doctors.

I thank Ms Clyne.

I thank Deputy Hourigan. Deputy Gino Kenny is next.

I wish everybody "Good morning" and thank them for their ongoing work.

Dr. McNamara said earlier that 80% of interns have left Ireland.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

That is correct.

Is that figure correct?

Dr. Rachel McNamara

It is. Some studies have been done with regard to the intern cohort that left in 2015 and a significant portion of them have returned.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

Approximately 70% of them have returned but 25% or 30% do not return.

How many junior doctors would qualify-----

That is an important distinction.

How many junior doctors would qualify per year?

Ms Susan Clyne

Just short of 1,000. It is 900 and something.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

There are 850 intern places. Of the 850 interns, just north of 700 are going away.

Is that happening every year?

Professor Matthew Sadlier

Yes. The number has been increasing slowly. This year will be approximately 80%.

Ms Susan Clyne

Typically, approximately 80% of the intern year go away.

They qualify from-----

Ms Susan Clyne

When they qualify, they work an intern year in the system. Thereafter they go away. The Minister for Health was in Australia for St. Patrick's Day and met many of those Irish doctors, who told him they had a good training experience in Ireland but that the way they had to work and the hours required were not sustainable. We are not saying they will never come back but we cannot assume they will come back.

It seems absolutely extraordinary that this is happening. It is unbelievable. Does this happen in any other profession in Ireland? These are highly qualified, highly motivated and highly educated people who want to be doctors but three quarters of them are leaving the country. It is extraordinary.

Ms Susan Clyne

It happens with nurses and physiotherapists. There is a lot of emigration in the healthcare setting. There is considerable targeting and we will see more of it in the coming months. There are advertisements at the bus stops outside the Mater hospital and on billboards above railway bridges near hospitals stating, "Come work for us." Everybody here who is a doctor will get several emails per day from a recruitment company. Those recruitment companies in other countries have identified why someone might leave. We have identified what will make people stay. Doctors should always go abroad and it is important that they do so and get that experience.

That works both ways.

Ms Susan Clyne

It does, but we do not have a pile of doctors coming from Australia to work here.

It is an extraordinary figure.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

The health minister from Newfoundland came here specifically to try to recruit junior doctors. As Ms Clyne said, there was a billboard campaign by the state of Victoria about a year ago. I work in the Mater hospital and when I drove around north Dublin, those advertisements were specifically around the Eccles Street and North Circular Road area. They were obviously targeting the hospital.

What is the draw?

Ms Susan Clyne

It is fewer hours rather than more money. We are not coming in here saying they need to be paid more. All the research has been done. I am not sure if Dr. Niamh Humphries has come before the committee but all the research has been done to show the issues are the work-life balance, the unnecessary pressures in the system and working in a system where they cannot do the job for which they trained. Those are the reasons people go away.

That can be addressed to a certain degree.

Ms Susan Clyne

It absolutely can.

The figures will obviously come down. There will always be people who want to go away to have a different experience. That is understandable. However, the numbers are unbelievable.

Ms Susan Clyne

They are very high. It used to be that people left after their training and went to do fellowships. When we start seeing interns emigrate after one year, it is time for alarm bells to start ringing. We hope they will come back and want them to, but we cannot risk that 20% of them will not come back. That is too high a risk.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

It is the culture to go away after the intern year. That has become the practice. The vast majority of them want to come back but what they hear from the people who stayed behind or the people who are a couple of years ahead of them is that they are absolutely burned out, have no lives and are possibly being dragged through inquests because of system failures. There is now a recruitment embargo at the only employer in the State.

The embargo does not apply to consultants.

Ms Susan Clyne

We are talking about non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs. We are talking about interns.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

We are talking about the interns who go away. That is not an attractive prospect to come back to. That is why the numbers who go have increased steadily. The signs are showing that the numbers who will stay away are also increasing.

The first page of the IMO's opening statement refers to the need for 5,000 additional acute hospital beds in a short time. Will the witnesses amplify what a short time means?

Ms Susan Clyne

We had better start now because we have been looking for this number for a long time. The population of Ireland is now at the level that was predicted for 2030. We have been talking about beds for far too long. Beds are being decommissioned by the system every year. Although some new beds are coming in, we are not matching the number being decommissioned. It took a pandemic for everyone to understand the bed issue. Everyone did understand it and promised it would be better but not enough has been done. It takes time and requires an enormous capital investment. We do not want the beds in corridors so we are going to have to build facilities. We need to start now. We should have an ambition to get those 5,000 beds into the system over the next three to five years.

Ms Vanessa Hetherington

We have had a health capacity report since 2018. We had a report 20 years ago that stated we needed 5,000 beds. We have put in only 1,000 beds since. The minimum recommendation of the capacity report was 2,600 additional beds. That was never going to be enough and we have not even reached that minimum. Something needs to be done urgently.

Ms Susan Clyne

We want to impress on the committee that there are some very core issues that are causing all the problems in the health service.

That is the core.

Ms Susan Clyne

That is the core, and workforce is the other. Without beds and the required numbers of doctors and other staff, we cannot meet the demand of patients. Every day, patients are promised by politicians that everything is available when it is not.

At the rate the country is going at the moment in terms of additional beds, to get to 5,000 beds will take decades. Is that right?

Ms Susan Clyne

It is, and by then the population will have changed. That is what I mean when I say we are running to stand still. There are no cheap or easy solutions. People who work in the health service read in the media that the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, are consistently criticising spending in the health service.

Those who are listening today will say that the Government is spending colossal amounts of money on our health service yet there are big holes in its capacity. It is €24 billion per year, which is an unbelievable amount.

Ms Susan Clyne

Is it an unbelievable amount? Healthcare costs.

I am not trying to defend the Government.

Ms Susan Clyne

The WHO has stated that if we keep viewing healthcare as a cost without viewing it as a benefit, we are going nowhere. There are people on waiting lists who cannot go into work because they are waiting for a procedure. That is a cost to the country as well.

Professor Sadlier was on the radio this morning to talk about the working time Act. The committee has discussed the issue many times. It seems amazing that workers in a medical environment are subjected to having to work these hours. There are regulations for truck drivers that mean they can only drive a certain number of hours per week. Doctors are subjected to dangerous hours when they have to look after people. It seems like madness.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

I will pass over to Dr. McNamara shortly. I am a consultant now but was a junior doctor for a long time. I got involved with this organisation in 2002. I am now saying exactly the same thing I said 22 years ago, although to a largely different group of politicians. The message is largely the exact same. What has happened over those 22 years is that as I said earlier, medicine has become more complicated. When I worked as a senior house officer, SHO, in an emergency department, I was able to see 16 or 17 patients per night.

What is an SHO?

Professor Matthew Sadlier

It is a grade of junior doctor. It is often the doctor who people will first see when they come into a hospital. We were able to see 16 or 17 patients a night because medicine was less complicated. There was less to do. If people came in with a stroke, the best practice management at the time was for them to get aspirin and then you waited until they did rehabilitation. There was not an ability worldwide to intervene. Now there is an ability to intervene. If people come in now with a stroke, they need to get a CT scan as soon as possible to see if it is a bleed or a clot. If it is a clot, we now have therapies that we are able to try to dissolve the clot to allow the blood to flow back to the brain to stop brain tissue from dying off. There are similar interventions with heart disease and other medical complications. Many years ago, we were able to plug through, but for junior doctors today, medicine has become so much more complicated. Each patient is taking longer than they would have in the past because we are able to do much more.

As well as that, the hospital we would have built when I started working, and I am sure Dr. Gilligan would have similar experiences, would have had ten-bed wards, such as in Limerick when I started working. I do not know if patients now would be happy to sit in a room with nine other people and one toilet. Not only that, but when we build hospitals infection control has become much more important, so the area in square metres per patient in new-build hospitals is now much higher. The number of bathrooms and toilets per patient is now much higher. It is an expensive business. If you want patients to get the best treatment, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your perspective, it costs a significant amount. We need to start a hospital-building programme today and we need to roll that on for a long time.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

I will give a practical example on that. With the agreement in 2022, the idea was that each hospital service would take its population of doctors and the hours that need to be covered 24-7 and divide them into each other to work out the minimum viable number of doctors needed that would be European working time directive-compliant. That is a legal number. The only hospital I heard of doing this, which I saw in an article, was Letterkenny. When it did that exercise, it found that it was short by 30 non-consultant hospital doctors. It cannot do anything with that. There is an embargo. It cannot move to remedy that. The idea of this agreement around working hours was that they would do the maths, see how many they need and then recruit. Until you do that, you will not make any inroads on this unsafe practice of making doctors work outrageous hours. That is my main point. I will pass over to Dr. Gilligan.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

We have been dealing with the capacity issue for a long time as a country. Our failure to invest in the number of hospital beds, step-down facilities and rehab facilities that we need has a real patient impact on a daily basis. Our ongoing failure to address it in a timely manner will continue that experience of patients sitting in chairs in emergency departments who are sick enough to need to be hospitalised appropriately in a ward bed. The current progress is not rapid enough. Conservatively speaking, I would say 1,000 beds each year for the next five years would get us closer to being in a position to be able to provide care to patients in a timely manner.

It is not just the fact that the patient is receiving care in an inappropriate place. It is that that care is compromised. In other words, the ability to deliver the level of care that the patient requires is just not there because the system does not have the capacity it needs. Patients will say that once they get onto the ward, they feel their issues are being addressed. They are grateful to the staff in emergency departments for doing their best to provide care, but we have to be able to move patients through the system so that we can provide the care that patients need. That necessitates an expensive investment in capacity that has to happen. We need that roadmap now.

I thank the witnesses.

The IMO represents doctors.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

We represent doctors at all levels, including junior doctors, general practitioners, consultants, public health and community health doctors. They are doctors who work on every aspect.

How does the IMO represent them? Do they pay a membership fee?

Ms Susan Clyne

They pay a trade union membership fee.

Does that include the non-consultant----

Professor Matthew Sadlier

Junior doctors, yes.

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. We have the negotiating licence to negotiate on behalf of those members.

I am grateful for the statements and answers the witnesses have given. I will be hopping all over. There is a headline figure. The witnesses said that 80% of interns leave. That is a dramatic figure. They also said that 75% of them return, which is also a headline figure. We are focused on the 80%, but 75% of them return. In their statement, the witnesses say that Australia, Canada, North America and the UK are targeting Irish-trained doctors and offering them better work-life balance and the opportunity to work in a system that supports and enables them to care for patients, but 75% of them return.

Ms Susan Clyne

To be clear-----

There is a big rush to answer this one.

Ms Susan Clyne

Some 80% of interns are currently leaving. We can only look at the returns of people who left a number of years ago. They are not the same group of people.

The witnesses have thrown out many statements here. I will come to another few if I can.

Ms Susan Clyne

If I could respond to that question-----

I will ask this, because the witnesses have had free rein and have thrown out many generalised statements without evidence to back some of them up. The headline statement is that 80% leave but the witnesses also said that 75% return.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

We have-----

Some 75% return. The witnesses made the statement that 80% leave. I could interrogate that.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

They do not return and stay forever.

That is fine. The witnesses made a blanket statement and it has been left out there. The witnesses said 75% return. Is that "Yes" or "No"?

Professor Matthew Sadlier

Somewhere in that region. It is a decreasing number.

Ms Susan Clyne

Of a different cohort.

There are many reasons people leave. One is the cultural and social experience that young people have. I am not denying that there are work pressures and things like that for teachers, nurses and so on. Since I joined the meeting 45 minutes ago, the whole discussion has shifted to this. Does the IMO support the public-only consultant contract?

Ms Susan Clyne

In the negotiations on the public-only consultant contract, the IMO-----

Did the IMO support it? Did it recommend it to members?

Ms Susan Clyne

No. We ran a ballot of members. The numbers signing up are very much in line with what the ballot return was.

Okay, but the IMO did not recommend it?

Ms Susan Clyne

No. As the Minister said, we gave a factual breakdown of the terms of the contract.

Some 50% of consultants accepted it and signed up to it.

Ms Susan Clyne

Not quite.

How representative of doctors is the IMO if it does not recommend a contract and then 50% of its members take up that contract? If I was a representative organisation and recommended against a contract, I would be worried that 50% of my members-----

Professor Matthew Sadlier

We did not recommend against it.

Ms Susan Clyne

We did not recommend against it.

The IMO did not recommend for it and 50% of its membership actually-----

Ms Susan Clyne

To be clear, when trade unions finish negotiations, they can recommend acceptance, rejection or that people make up their own minds. That particular contract was a choice. People could stay on their old contract or choose to move but once they were employed after March 2023, there was no choice and they would take it up anyway. Of the number who are on the contract, 479-----

Some 50% of consultants have signed the contract.

Ms Susan Clyne

I do not think it is quite 50% but I am not going to argue the percentage.

The figures I have here, which were presented in a briefing we received this morning, show that 2,278 signed up to the public service contract-----

Ms Susan Clyne

Some 470-----

-----and 2,309 have not.

Ms Susan Clyne

Some 470 of the 2,229 only came into the system after March 2023 and that was the only contract they could sign.

In their opening statement, the witnesses stated the IMO's research carried out over a number of years shows that 94% of doctors reported having experienced some form of depression, anxiety, exhaustion, stress, emotional stress or other mental health condition relating to or made worse by work and 80% of doctors are at risk of burnout. What steps has the IMO taken to address those as a professional representative organisation?

Ms Susan Clyne

We have brought these figures to the HSE-----

What has the IMO done as a representative body to which people are paying a fee for it to represent them? What measures has it implemented? Does it have a responsibility for that? That is a fairer question. Does the IMO believe it has a responsibility to its membership to address those-----

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. We have a responsibility to our membership to address those issues insofar as those issues are driven by members' work environments. We have a responsibility to members to advocate for change in those work environments so that their burnout rate will come down.

Does the IMO offer any supports as a representative organisation?

Ms Susan Clyne

No, we are not a deliverer of clinical services to members.

What kind of interventions has the IMO made? It struck me that if the IMO were a representative body for pilots, that statistic would be terrifying. If I thought that 94% of pilots were suffering from depression, anxiety, exhaustion, stress, emotional stress or whatever, I would be afraid of flying. That would be a reasonable deduction to make.

Ms Susan Clyne

Indeed, and if you thought that pilots were working 60 hours a week, you would also be afraid of flying so systems are put in place that mean they do not.

What interventions has the IMO recommended? What has been taken up? What interventions are in place that could reassure the public that the professionals who are treating and dealing with them are fit to carry out their professional duties?

Ms Susan Clyne

We are not saying doctors are not fit to carry out their professional duties. I will be crystal clear about that. That is not the message we gave to the public. We said, and we want to be clear about what we said, that 94% of doctors have experienced, in that past year, an incident. We did not say they are suffering from depression. They experienced an incident that was-----

Is that an extra clarification?

Ms Susan Clyne

No. It is written in the statement. It is not an extra clarification. It is written in the statement that they experienced an incident "relating to, or made worse by work." I want to be very clear about what we are saying here.

Ms Vanessa Hetherington

Sorry, I will clarify that 94% of doctors, over the experience of their whole working life, have experienced some form of depression. They also have a high risk of burnout. The actual crux of this issue, however, is down to their working conditions and working hours. That is the bit we are trying to address. You can provide all the supports to treatment, but if the actual root of the problem and where it comes from is not addressed, which is the working conditions and the hours-----

The difficulty I have is I found the IMO's opening statement and contributions more political than what we are used to here. They were hostile to some degree and lacking in any acknowledgement or balance regarding the increasing numbers of consultant doctors, non-commissioned doctors, nurses and a range of staff in the health service since 2020, for example. We are talking about thousands. There is very little reflection of that in the-----

Ms Susan Clyne

In both the written and oral statements, we said we welcomed the appointment of consultants. However, there is an issue that we cannot run away from, which is if there is a recruitment embargo on-----

That does not cover consultants or-----

Ms Susan Clyne

It does not cover consultants but-----

-----or NCHDs in formal training.

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes, in approved training posts. However, consultants require a team around them. They require admin. If the Deputy goes to the NHS in Leeds tomorrow, when consultants are appointed, everything is in place before they walk in the door. If consultants come here, they could spend up to a year waiting for that. In fact, I know a doctor who has been in the system three years who still has no office and no admin support.

Where is that?

Ms Susan Clyne

I do not want to name a particular hospital. It is around the whole service. We have to have a joined-up approach. We are not trying to-----

Does Ms Clyne accept there are 33% more consultants in the system than there were four years ago?

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes. I am not disputing that but, to be clear, we are coming from such a low base. We are coming from a base where, for ten years, the recruitment and retention policy was to pay new entrant consultants 30% less than their existing colleagues. That has been addressed and there is now equitable pay in the new contract. We had a chronic shortage of consultants. We are not attempting to be confrontational. However, we are expressing our members' frustration. They are coming to the IMO and saying they are working these hours. We have hired more people to be able to deal with the HSE and fighting for our members' rights. We have been raising the issues of capacity, bed capacity and workforce planning for more than a decade so, yes, there is a level of frustration on our part. We are not attempting to be political. We are not a political organisation.

The IMO made generalised comments about politicians. It used that term and it is not the kind of thing I am used to. I might be overly defensive as a Government TD. I normally am not and am pretty objective, but I found it a little jarring. There has been an unprecedented investment in the healthcare system since 2020. I accept the points the IMO made-----

Ms Susan Clyne

As a Government TD, the Minister for Health has produced this report that recognises the burnout, mental health and work-life balance issues. We are not saying anything that is not in that report. This a Government report that the Cabinet has adopted. We are saying we now need to see it implemented.

I will give the witnesses a comfort break for a few minutes. We will resume in five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.06 a.m. and resumed at 11.13 a.m.

We will resume again with Deputy Durkan.

I welcome our guests and thank them for the information. I do not want to go over the earlier session but it is important to recognise that we all need to get to a place where we can rely on the system, and a system that works. It is about patients' health and the health of the community. The committee has been told at these meetings that Ireland has one of the most expensive health systems in the world. I do not know if that statement is true but it may be true in some respects.

For my sins, I was an Opposition health spokesperson in the past. There is a tendency nowadays to blame the Government for everything. That was not the case with me because I did not engage in that practice when I was in that particular role. It is an easy option to say that because the weather is bad today and has been for the past year or so, the Government can in some way be blamed for that or that every issue that affects the public in a negative way can be attributed to a politician or politicians.

That said, we deserve to have a high quality of service and good working conditions for those who are employed in the health services because of the nature of the service. When something goes wrong or when an accident takes place in a hospital or accident and emergency department and people are not attended to in the way they feel they should be attended to, we have to ask questions. This is in order to protect the quality and integrity of the service, the individuals working in the services and the patients.

The recruitment embargo has been mentioned more than once in the context of other issues. Do the witnesses accept that, according to the Minister for Finance, there was runaway spending taking place in some areas of the Department of Health? This was brought to the attention of the Minister. How should that be dealt with? Was the budget too low in the first place and should there be a higher budget? Do we need to look at the budgetary surplus? This question has come up a few times in the recent past. Everybody sees a budgetary surplus as something we should aspire to spend but we have to be careful. Ten or 12 years ago, the whole financial system collapsed and everybody in the health system, the education system and the general administration running the country had to take a whacking cut, left, right and centre. That was not determined by institutions in Ireland but by the International Monetary Fund, which began to fund and support us. It was a case of either doing that and voluntarily operating it or having it done for us in an arbitrary fashion, which would have been much more hurtful. The difference was between making a cut of 25% or 30% as opposed to having a 60% cut made. There was no money. In the event that there had been a 60% cut, there would have been real devastation. In some countries in Europe, there was no money in the ATM machines for a good part of the day on any particular day. I know that because I experienced it myself. Are the witnesses conscious that we need to balance our requirements insofar as meeting the needs of the people?

It is correct that we need 5,000 extra beds but I was a member of a health board when we were told we needed 5,000 fewer beds. Experts came in and told us the system was all wrong and in future inpatient attendances would be for a couple of hours and then off people would go. It is not possible to do it that way all the time. There are certain situations that need different types of treatment.

Population growth and people living longer are to be celebrated, and rightly so, but do our health services recognise that there are situations within the system that should not happen, even in cases where services are stretched and there is overcrowding?

Members visited University Hospital Limerick in the past few weeks. It is a good hospital and everything is run very well, with the one exception that two accident and emergency departments in the region were closed down and patients were transferred to the ED in UHL, which is under construction. I do not know who made that decision to close down the EDs in Nenagh and Ennis. The fact is it is not possible to turn over the number of patients now in need of attention in UHL on the basis of that situation, which was unfortunately presented to the staff who are now stuck with it. Somebody made the decision but nobody came forward and told us that they had made that decision on the basis of expert knowledge and information available to them. The consequences of those decisions are being lived with still. That is the first comment I wanted to make. Perhaps some of the witnesses will respond to it.

It is not possible to replicate the conditions on Bondi Beach and various other places given the kind of weather this country has had for the past year and a half. It was just unfortunate. The Government was working on that but failed to deliver the same conditions.

What do the witnesses say to those who say our health services are costing more than comparable health services elsewhere?

Ms Susan Clyne

I can confirm that the IMO does not hold the Government responsible for the differential between Dublin, Cork and Bondi Beach.

Thank you very much.

Ms Susan Clyne

Regarding the years of austerity, the IMO was very clear at that time-----

Just a second. We did not have austerity. We had cutbacks, which were necessitated by the financial system that prevailed in this country at the time.

Ms Susan Clyne

The IMO warned that if those cutbacks were put upon our health service, we would face decades of crisis afterwards and that is what has happened. Even during that time, there was never a recruitment embargo on doctors. We have gone a step further this time. Of course, we accept that the Government had the right and had been voted into power to make policy decisions and choices and budgetary considerations. However, if we are promising the public a public health service that will meet its needs, we must assess those needs and then have a service that has the facilities and staff to meet those needs. We need to be honest with people. Regarding the idea of black holes, I was around during those years and was in here presenting to committees during that time. So many efficiencies were identified during those years of cutbacks, austerity or whatever people choose to call it and most of those inefficient practices were taken out of the system. We cannot get away from the fact that we need more beds. We have been crying out for more beds. There was one period when a former chief executive of the HSE put in a plan that we needed fewer beds. It took a long time for Government to come round to the position that we need more beds. We have to accept that there are underlying systemic problems. It does not really matter how hard people work if those underlying systemic problems remain in place. A figure of 1,000 additional beds per year is not overly ambitious. Recruiting staff to staff those beds is not overly ambitious in the next five years but we have to put our best foot forward. However, it is costly. Healthcare is costly. Every country in the world is facing the realities of the cost of delivering healthcare but this country, the system and the Dáil have committed to Sláintecare, which is a free health service. That free health service has to be built to deliver the care we have told people they can avail of.

Ms Vanessa Hetherington

Ms Clyne made the point that we are just playing catch-up. We have an expensive system but we are catching up on years of underfunding so it is going to be expensive and we must decide what it is that we want to fund. If we want a proper health system, we are going to have to put that money in. We need to look at what capital investment has gone into beds. There has not been that capital investment in beds and this has to be addressed.

It is being addressed in the national development plan. It has been announced, has been put into the public arena and is now an objective.

Ms Vanessa Hetherington

There are no 5,000 beds.

Ms Susan Clyne

There are no 5,000 beds in that plan and they are not funded. We cannot run away from this.

There are several hospital projects that are earmarked for progress in the near future and are part of the national development plan.

Ms Vanessa Hetherington

They are not inpatient beds. We have elective hospitals in the plan, which are mainly day case beds. They are not inpatient beds and they will not address the problem.

We will have to disagree because as a former Opposition health spokesperson, I can tell Ms Hetherington that I met with all the authorities in the system at the time that told me emphatically that we had too many beds. It became an objective. We had to close down 5,000 beds.

Ms Susan Clyne

We did it in record time but we did not-----

They were closed down and nobody came forward to say "listen, you need information now; and we have information for you that will show you that we cannot afford to lose 5,000 beds."

Ms Susan Clyne

I think we objected to it at the time.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

We are part of the group that delivers the service. I know the previous speaker mentioned that we referenced politicians. We reference politicians because they are the people who make the promises to the public. Politicians say "we are going to deliver you a free at the point of healthcare service" and we have to deliver that on those promises but if we are not given the resources, ability, beds and structure to deliver the promises, we do not make the promises. We are the delivery service. Obviously, we have a view on certain aspects of it and that is where I come back to-----

Sometimes we make promises that cannot be kept but some of us try to make promises that can be kept and we try to adhere to that as a principle. The sooner we recognise that, the better for everybody concerned be it with regard to education, health or any other branch of the service. We appreciate public service.

The last point I want to make is a quick one. I do not usually do this. The Cathaoirleach knows that as well. I have had occasion to go into several hospitals in recent times with family members and so on. I have had adequate time to compare services in the private and public sector, the things that happen in accident and emergency, the distractions that are there and the abuse that takes place. I am not blaming the witnesses for this. This takes place. I cannot understand why it takes place and why people should have to work under these conditions. It should be a simple matter to say we do not want staff to be abused and we do not want other patients to be subject to the abuse that comes from a particular section that wants to invade accident and emergency departments to suit themselves at particular times. This is a large-scale phenomenon. It is not an isolated phenomenon. It does not happen in private hospitals. That is the difference.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

Regarding the environment we create in public hospitals, because of the lack of capacity, patients are waiting on beds for protracted periods of time, their family members are stressed trying to advocate on their behalf and the staff are stressed trying to advocate and deliver treatment. The reason that does not happen in private emergency departments is that they have the capacity to move patients through the system in a timely manner. We do not have that capacity in the public system, which is why we are here advocating yet again in terms of the capacity that we need so that the environment becomes less stressful for patients, the staff and the relatives of those patients.

The other point to make, which is a very important point, is that we create a more risk-prone environment by not providing the capacity the system needs. I take the Deputy's point that historically the Government may have been incorrectly advised regarding the requirements of the system but with a growing and ageing population and increased complexity of care needs, we definitely need that capacity and I hope the Deputy will support that.

I always support what is required.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. We discussed these questions before when the witnesses were here previously so forgive me for being a broken record on these topics. The witnesses mentioned a global shortage of doctors. Are we training enough doctors in Ireland? Is there global capacity to meet the medical needs of the world? I suppose it is an esoteric question but if there is a global shortage of doctors and we have a shortage of doctors, are we simply not training enough doctors globally or is it just that doctors are being moved from one place to the other and we are taking from Peter to pay Paul? We previously discussed how we recruit doctors from certain countries to work in Ireland and the impact of this brain drain on those countries.

In their opening statements, the witnesses spoke about doctors who cannot progress to consultant level. These are doctors who are six years on a critical skills permit.

We desperately need these doctors. Can the witnesses outline some of the countries these doctors are from? I am still boggled by the fact that we have doctors who we would say are skilled enough to be non-consultant hospital doctors and who may be working in the system for a number of years, but we will not allow them progress on. Are the witnesses aware of any plans to try to deal with that? It was said that 6,000 consultants are required. There are 9,000 non-consultant hospital doctors, of which posts 80% are filled by international doctors. I am not terribly au fait with maths but it seems that the numbers do not really add up and there possibly is a way we could fill some of that gap but perhaps I am wrong on that.

Finally, I can go digging around on this but are there figures available on how many surgeries or procedures are cancelled on the day because of a lack of equipment? I will give a specific example of someone who was being wheeled down to surgery, they were in the gown and all the bits and pieces, they had done their paperwork and many people had been involved. As they were being wheeled into surgery, they were told that the metal was not in place to fix their foot. The whole thing was cancelled and they had to come back into the system again. That obviously has a huge cost and a huge delay. Do the witnesses have any idea of the number of times that is happening and the cost of it to our healthcare system?

Those are my three questions.

Ms Susan Clyne

I will take the last one first. We do not have the data in that particular instance about equipment failing or equipment not being available but the HSE should have that. We know that elective or scheduled care is routinely cancelled and that goes back to our favourite subject - the lack of beds in the system. That is where we do have an issue.

Yes, there is a global shortage of doctors. We do not have data on the output from every country. Regarding the number of doctors we train here, we do not have a coherent workforce plan, which is something else we have been calling for, so we can have the number of graduates, taking into account some manoeuvre and resilience. Not everybody will go on to finish it or go on to want to practice medicine in the long run. We need to increase our graduates, we definitely need to increase our approved training posts and we need to be able to match the demographics of the consultants and specialists we will need in the future. We know a significant number of consultants are due to retire over the next number of years, so obviously we will have to match that.

Regarding the doctors internationally who come to practice in Ireland and how appreciative we are of them, Pakistan and Sudan are the top two, then it is a variety of other countries underneath that. Those are the critical places where the visa issues are taking place.

I will let my colleagues, namely, Professor Sadlier, Dr. McNamara and Dr. Gilligan, address some of the Senator’s other questions.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

There is a huge international deficit of healthcare workers and doctors in specific. I am pulling this out of the deepest parts of my brain but I think the global need is something around 20 million and I think there are 13 million doctors. That is a World Health Organization estimate, which tends to be a bit idealistic at times, if you know what I mean. However, that would be the number we are looking at. There is a huge global deficit.

The Senator is right to say, and the World Health Organization also has a very strong position on, the brain drain from the developing world to the developed world. There are a couple of schemes we run, such as the international medical graduate training initiative, IMGTI. Where I work, we take doctors from Pakistan who are near the end of their training in Pakistan. They come here, complete training and the majority return back home with expertise. There is an element where some of the doctors we bring in from the developing world are here to learn skills in the same way that our doctors for many years travelled abroad to other countries that might be more scientifically advanced than ourselves. There is an element of that but there is also an element of doctors who come here and stay here.

Those are the numbers I have. I will pass on to Dr. McNamara, who may be able to inform the Senator a little more on some of those issues.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

On the question on non-training NCHDs, out of that number of 9,000, X number are in formally approved training posts and we know they are not part of the recruitment embargo. However, the non-training NCHDs, of whom 80% were trained internationally or potentially have trained abroad, are the ones caught up in the recruitment embargo. One can see from the opening statement that it is those individuals who cannot progress within the system and they are purely providing service in the main. They are not supported to engage with the development structures and processes in place to progress in their career. That contributes to a whole lot of frustration and dissatisfaction. We heard already about how many issues they have, sometimes in respect of their families joining them. There are massive issues. In fact, in the main, it is international doctors working in emergency departments, which have been a feature of the discussions today. I heard an example of an emergency department that I will not name. Out of the 26 doctors employed in it, 24 are internationally trained doctors. A huge proportion of our emergency doctors are trained abroad. There are huge turnover rates. We are not supporting them at all really to have fulfilling, lasting, long-term careers in Ireland. That is compounding all of the issues we have mentioned as well. We are trying to strongly advocate for them in order that they can be supported. We need additional training posts within the national task force agreement. The aspiration is that all NCHD posts will become training posts and there will be a natural progression within the system. However, we are so far away from that in that we are not hitting those training post numbers, we are not supporting those doctors and there is a huge amount of disenfranchisement and dissatisfaction within that cohort.

I will pass over to Dr. Gilligan.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

On the global shortage, absolutely it is a huge challenge. Regarding recruiting doctors from abroad to work here, Ireland is an outlier. We are hugely dependent on doctors who trained in other countries to provide our health service. Paradoxically, we have more medical students in training per capita than most other countries in the world, apart from Cuba. We are training a lot of doctors and I think we should be proud of that fact. The challenge is that many of those doctors are leaving the system and, as a result, we require doctors who have trained elsewhere to come here and provide service. As Professor Sadlier said, many of them will increase their training and expertise and then return to their own countries, but many of them do wish to stay in Ireland and we do not make that as straightforward for them as we should. We should be incredibly grateful that they come here and provide care to a very high standard.

Ms Vanessa Hetherington

I just wanted to add that it is quite clear that we need to increase the number of training posts. We invite our foreign doctors into this country but do not provide the training opportunities to them that we should. There is absolutely a need to increase. I think there are posts out there that have been identified that could be converted into training posts but this has not happened yet.

I welcome our witnesses, and I apologise as I was bit late. I hope I do not repeat any questions. That is my biggest concern.

The opening statement talked about the impact that shortcomings in the healthcare system are having on consultants and non-consultant hospital doctors. The area I am particularly interested in hearing more on is the prevalence of depression, anxiety, stress and burnout. I hope to hear a little bit more on the personal experience of being a consultant or an NCHD in Ireland and what that is like. I am very conscious of the commitment, the dedication, the years of training and the sacrifices made by those who enter the profession. I am very conscious of how long all of that takes.

It is really concerning to hear that 80% of doctors are at risk of burnout and 75% of NCHDs do not feel valued.

The Irish Medical Organisation does not provide clinical care to its members, and I would not expect it to, but I am wondering what support structures are in place, particularly around mental health services for those who are really struggling. What is the consensus within the profession in this regard? What is the work environment like? Is there an opportunity for people to sit and have lunch together? Just on a human level, how unhappy are people in the profession? I wonder what impact these issues might have on future entry into the profession. These are loaded questions but it is important to hear the human side of things and what the environment is like for people.

Ms Susan Clyne

Doctors are human. They are sometimes patients themselves and they may have family members who are patients. My doctor colleagues will speak to their personal experiences in this regard. Burnout in the profession is well evidenced in our own literature and in other national literature. The international evidence of burnout among doctors is overwhelming. Contractually, all HSE employees can avail of counselling. There is a lot of talk about mental health but whether there is a lot of support is a slightly different matter. There are structures for support. Doctors are not different from the rest of society in that they are reluctant to self-identify as needing help and to seek the help they need. Doctors, very often, attend work at a very high rate when they are ill. That is just a normal thing. It is about not letting down their patients and colleagues.

We have run a survey for the past three years measuring the levels of stress and burnout among doctors and pointing them in the direction of the support services. We are seeing no decrease in those levels. Obviously, if people are feeling demoralised or frustrated, working in a pressurised environment every day will feed into that. I do not want to say doctors are never happy or that they are unfit. They are fit to work and they do a great job. However, they are facing what we would say are unnecessary pressures, and pressures that could be removed. My medical colleagues will speak to the burnout issue. The idea of doctors sitting down together for a whole lunch hour might be a bit of a stretch.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

The Senator made a very important point. A big change in the past decade or so is the feminisation of medicine such that 55% of current medical students are female. We are on the cusp of our whole doctor population reaching more than 50% female. The current figure is 47%. That was never the case previously. A lot of the stress and anxiety issues, along with arising from what we have already discussed, namely, overcrowding and consistently being unable to deliver the best possible care, come from practical issues such as there still being a huge onus on doctors to migrate around the country regularly to undertake training. There is no way to avoid that at the moment. I have friends and colleagues who have had to spend a year or more living away from their very young children. Some of them choose to commute but that takes away from the small amount of time they are allowed to sleep. Getting sleep is very important to being able to mount any sort of resistance to the demands of the work and the onset of stress and burnout.

Childcare is another issue. At the moment, there is no option for a surgical trainee who is starting at 7 a.m. to avail of childcare. It does not exist. Addressing that is a very straightforward, practical solution that we have looked for time and again. However, proposals in that regard did not feature in the NCHD task force report. We welcome the report hugely but this was a major omission. Planning for the types of childcare provision that are required could really make a huge difference to a large cohort of our doctor population.

Living away from family, the burdens of the work, having to migrate, having to double-rent when moving around for the course of training are all issues facing doctors. I reiterate the point that people can put up with a lot if they are being treated fairly, working safe, contractual and legal hours and getting paid appropriately. Those very basic things are not guaranteed within the system at the moment. People can put up with an awful lot if those basics are in place. At the moment, the trust is absolutely obliterated. There is a huge amount in the task force report. It has been endorsed by the Government but we need to see implementation of the aspects I mentioned.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

One of the greatest frustrations for doctors in the Irish system is that they come to work and they are not facilitated in the delivery of that work. My emergency department colleagues and I struggle to find a space in which to see patients. Our surgical colleagues upstairs often tell me they have not been able to bring in a patient for an operation because there is no bed available in the hospital. Our anaesthetics colleagues will say they do not have the intensive care beds they need for all the patients requiring critical care within the hospital system. Our rehabilitation specialists say they do not have the bed base they need. In all these cases, people's frustration is really around the fact they want to deliver care. Having spent 14 years in many cases to get to the first year of a consultant role, they are met with challenges in the delivery of that care that really should not still be the case in a modern country. If we could address the ability of doctors to deliver the care they want to deliver, a lot of the frustrations would evaporate as a result. Our failure to do that will mean those frustrations continue.

Professor Matthew Sadlier

As a psychiatrist, the issue with burnout is interesting. Burnout is not just about work and time at work. It is also about concepts of control and being valued. The way our hospitals work and are organised, including the lack of a comprehensive IT system and the fact doctors spend a large part of their day doing non-doctor tasks because of the inefficiency of the paper-based chart system, is a factor. Doctors feel they cannot progress in their career because they are sidelined into avenues. As Dr. Gilligan said, they want to deliver a service. They want to make the right choices. The textbook says they should do such and such but, actually, they come up against a system in which that action is not facilitated. This is a very big pusher of the burnout issue.

To expand on Dr. McNamara's point, one of the other big changes over the past 15 years or so is the addition of graduate entry to medical training. That option was brought in by the Government some time in the mid-2000s. It means we now have a different cohort of people graduating as doctors from what we had before. When I graduated, we were all aged about age 24, largely single and with no children. To a certain extent, some of the rotation we had to do, which involved going to different parts of the country and seeing different towns, was quite enjoyable. Now, a certain percentage of the cohort coming out of training is made up of people who are more settled and have children. They are facing the issues with childcare and having settled families.

The point I would make is that flexibility is needed. One model does not fit all. The biggest problem with mental health provision, both in Ireland and internationally, is that we have people preaching one model to everybody. Not everybody benefits from counselling and psychotherapy. Some do and others do not. Some people benefit from other interventions. I loved the rotation aspect of the job when I was young and single. Some people do not love that aspect. Having flexibility, whereby we could suit the work environment to the people working in it, is the key. One size will never fit all. If we do not solve those sorts of problems, frustrations will arise. There is no point changing the system to suit the people who suffer if the people who are happy with the current system then start to suffer and there is a constant flip-flopping.

It is about having that flexibility around training and career structures to acknowledge there are different people graduating who all have different needs and ambitions. As a final point, the issue of childcare is 100% critical because doctors work unusual hours. For example, if we are on call, we come in at weekends and in the middle of the night. That is a big issue and is one that can be easily solved. Every hospital should have some degree of on-site childcare.

Ms Susan Clyne

Just to reiterate, many of the contracts for doctors in the health service, particularly NCHD contracts, were designed around young men at a certain point in their lives who had the ability to make choices. They do not recognise the demographic for either non-consultant hospital doctors or indeed for consultants. We have to be much more flexible in understanding, like any private company or any of the big companies that want to attract talent. They understand their needs and adapt to suit them if they want people to work for them.

We can never underestimate the importance of childcare when it comes to these high-pressured jobs. It is so important.

To follow on from the last conversation around childcare, although we have not mentioned it this morning, it must be impossible to try to get accommodation, particularly in relation to rotation. The housing issue has not been mentioned this morning. The witness mentioned that she travelled around when she was younger, but it must be increasingly difficult for anyone in that situation.

Ms Susan Clyne

It is very difficult. NCHDs know they are only going out for six months and are actually double renting. They are holding their rent. If they have an apartment in Dublin, they continue to pay that rent and then take on new rent elsewhere. They know if they have to come back to Dublin again in six months, there will be a problem with finding a job. Many of the graduate-entry medical students who come into the system at a different stage in their career have mortgages. They have a mortgage in one part of the country that they will have to continue to pay while renting in another.

More and more doctors are commuting long distances, for example between Dublin and Drogheda or Dublin and Wexford, which is not really a good way of life or sustainable, particularly in the context of the kind of hours they are working. They are not going to be relying on public transport to get them to the hospital if they are on call or to get them to their shifts.

While housing, childcare and all of these issues affect society, there needs to be some recognition that if you are asking your own workforce, which has a demographic in which children are a feature, to work nights and weekends when every crèche in the country opens from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m., something has to give there.

We saw that particularly during Covid-19. We asked people to put in those hours and we did not follow through. The system did not follow through on the childcare elements, regardless of everything else. That was one of the huge challenges and failures we had.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

I thank the Cathaoirleach for raising this issue again. I have a number of colleagues who cannot return from maternity leave because they cannot get a crèche place. They are staying out for an additional six to 12 months because they cannot get a place. There is no one to backfill those posts because of the embargo. This is all compounding the scenarios that are filling the headlines at the minute. None of it is adding up and none of it is working cohesively. I can think of three examples off the top of my head where people cannot return to work because they know that when they come back, they will be doing 48-hour or 60-hour shifts. There are only certain placements which can accommodate that, such as those with after-school and all the rest of it combined. It is really challenging.

These are all the elements. I am on a committee of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly which is looking at the idea of rural housing. One of the things that started to come up at a recent meeting is that if you are serious about building communities in rural areas, on islands or wherever, you need to have a home for the doctor, the police officer and the teacher, and you need to have all those key elements such as childcare. All of those types of things are needed. That is the way. We are really talking about planning for the future and that needs to be there.

I wish to point out that as a committee we got a number of briefing documents this morning, as has been alluded to by members. There was one in relation to the consultant contract and there are notes around that. We also received a paper on the task force implementation update during this morning's meeting. It came in at 10.30 a.m. and therefore, it was a bit difficult for anyone to try to refer to it. The witness said there was no follow-through on measures. If we had that document, we could have probably highlighted what the Department and the HSE are saying in relation some of the follow-through in this regard.

The witness spoke to the chaotic system we have around doctors not getting paid. For me, as a lay person, but also for the people listening at home, it just seems crazy. Is it a system in which people are not getting paid or might they have moved on? Does the doctor fill in the hours they are there or is it the hospital that does that? What is the system in that regard?

Ms Susan Clyne

Before I answer that question, I wish to refer back. We have seen the implementation report thus far but it is not really dealing with the big issues around working hours. Our point is very much that we can set up all the working groups we like to look at these things but unless we actively do something about it, nothing will change.

On the pay of doctors, there is no centralised system to pay doctors. Every time a doctor moves hospital, he or she is a new employee in that hospital going into the system. The hours then have to be submitted. There are clock-in arrangements in some hospitals but mainly it is a paper-based system. Doctors’ hours have to be filled in and have to be signed off by the consultant and are then sent in. Hospitals will often choose what hours they will or will not pay for. They may say that the doctor should not have been there between 7 o’clock and 8 o’clock and no one should have rostered the doctor to come in before 8 o’clock and therefore, the hospital will not pay for that hour between 7 o’clock and 8 o’clock. There are issues about being on the right pay scale, about doctors getting the right number of hours for overtime and about getting those overtime hours at the right rates. There are issues about getting their night rate, their premium pay and compensatory rest.

There is no standard pay system for doctors, which is something that was in the 2022 agreement. It was recognised by the HSE. It is a problem for the HSE in that it now has to pull information from all over the place to find out the data around the payment of doctors. It commissioned a report from an independent consultancy firm but we have yet to see a copy of that report. Movement was supposed to be made during 2024, but now it will be 2025 at the earliest before there are any guarantees in this regard.

It is very late in paying. For example, the public sector pay agreement is about staged payments and some of them go back to January. If I have a NCHD contract, I could have moved employer and I am relying on my previous employer. My current employer would give me the pay increase but I would have to wait for my previous employer to send me details of the arrears I am due from 1 January. It is unbelievably chaotic. The NCHDs get tired and exhausted as a result of having to go up all the time querying. It is not the fault of any individual; it is because there is not a proper system and it is part of the whole IT problem in the health services.

The problem is not that the consultant or doctor is not filling in the forms.

Ms Susan Clyne

No.

As in he or she is not applying for it.

Ms Susan Clyne

No.

We are not going to resolve it today but it is important we highlight it and try to get some sort of sense of it. It just seems a chaotic system.

Ms Susan Clyne

It is chaotic. The emergency tax is still technically in place. All that has been agreed, because we have no proper centralised payroll, is that the employer will say we are putting some money into your account. It is like a loan.

When the tax is sorted out, the money is taken back out of the account. That is not a solution.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

They are a unique group in that to my knowledge, no other public sector employees move employers every three months while always being paid by the HSE. They have to go through the jigs and reels of setting up a new job this frequently, with all of the frustrations that go along with it. It feeds into the cycle of being thoroughly frustrated, dissatisfied and saying, "to hell with this, I will go where this does not happen".

My next question is probably left-field again. When we were down in Limerick I was speaking to one of the consultants who said he was going to sign the contract but he just had not had the time to do so. Is it a fairly detailed contract?

Ms Susan Clyne

It is a long process. I am sure there are a lot of applications in the system. Professor Sadlier will speak about this. It is very detailed.

Is the contract something that could be simplified? Does it have to be as onerous as it is?

Professor Matthew Sadlier

That is a very difficult one to answer. Ultimately, it is a contract. People will want to make sure what they are being offered is the contract on paper. When people go to renew their contract they have to go through their work plan. It is a cumbersome process. As with all bureaucracies I am sure there is a way, once people have had a meeting with their manager, of getting it approved at the higher level. I presume, as with all bureaucracies, there is probably some way of streamlining it a bit. By the very nature of the fact it is an employment contract with what the terms and conditions will be for the next 20 years or so, most people do take a period of time to consider it and they want to flesh it out. There could probably be some streamlining but ultimately I am not sure how it could be done.

Ms Susan Clyne

For the employer as well, the detailing of a work plan involves a lot of work and it is not the only job of the employers and clinical directors. They are doing this job on top of everything else. It is about being able to set aside the time to go through all of this and go through the system. There are some delays.

Perhaps it is something we can follow up on. Is the IMO hopeful the issue regarding visas for families can be resolved?

Ms Susan Clyne

I am always hopeful that things can be resolved. I live in hope.

Again, it seems like something that could be resolved.

Ms Susan Clyne

There is no reason it cannot be resolved. It is bureaucracy and there is no reason it cannot be resolved.

The witnesses have made the point there have been deficits in funding over decades and we are playing catch-up with regard to the challenges in our system.

Ms Susan Clyne

We warned at the time that the decisions we took during the years of austerity and when we were on cutbacks would have consequences. The key worry we have now is that if we do the same again we will build up more trouble for the future. We really have to invest in a big way. It should be a very big national project. When Covid happened, the health service and everyone who worked in it turned on the head of a pin overnight and changed what they were doing. We have to have this approach to capacity now.

Other groups have come before the committee. They have told us, for example with regard to cancer services, that we have radiology machines but we do not have radiologists.

Ms Susan Clyne

Yes, I heard that session.

We may go ahead and build the infrastructure but we do not have the doctors. It is about all of these things working together. With regard to the negotiations, and I know I am labouring on this, the witnesses said the IMO had the negotiations and the next day the freeze was announced. Is it the belief of the IMO that the people it was negotiating with realised this announcement was coming?

Ms Susan Clyne

It is not my understanding that they did.

They were also in the dark.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

As far as I understand they were not aware.

It was not bad faith on the part of the negotiators with the IMO in this regard.

Ms Susan Clyne

When I speak about bad faith, I am speaking about the employer or the system generally as opposed to individuals. I am not speaking about individuals.

The briefing note we received from the Department speaks about flexible working patterns and arrangements. It states consultants on the public contract have a range of flexible working options available. It also states that POCC provides for more flexibility for consultants who want to work share, do less than whole time, work compressed hours or opt for different work patterns. Is this the experience of the IMO?

Ms Susan Clyne

This is true but if someone wants to job share, he or she must have someone to job share with so he or she needs to find that other person. People can apply for these things but they are not automatically granted it. It depends on the service level all the time. Flexibility has to be built into every workforce plan for health services, all public services and all private services. The demographic of the world of workforce now requires this flexibility and for us to deliver services requires this flexibility. I am not disputing there are flexibility options that can be availed of but they can be availed of in certain circumstances. We should absolutely be grateful to take on people who cannot give a commitment of a 37-hour week but who are willing to give a commitment of 20 hours. We should not stand in the way of recruitment and bringing in people willing to work in the system.

There are certain areas where there has been a larger take-up. One of the positives is the higher uptake with regard to anaesthetists and diagnostics. There are positives coming out of some of the changes. The IMO has spoken about the non-take-up of the contract and that the UHL group has the lowest level. This can be explained by all of the challenges they face there. The group with the highest take-up is the RCSI group, which includes Beaumont Hospital, Cavan, Connolly Hospital, Louth County Hospital, Monaghan General Hospital, Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda and the Rotunda Hospital. Is there a specific reason this hospital group has a higher take-up than some of the others?

Ms Susan Clyne

I am not sure the comparison of hospital groups on take-up of the contract tells us anything. People working in a hospital where they feel there are enough people and enough staff to implement the contract have more confidence about signing it. With regard to the contract in and of itself, it is like that if we got to 100% of consultants on the POCC something would change. Nothing would change. When the 2008 contract came in, it was lauded as the answer for our health service. There was always a public-only contract, which was the A contract. Until we put in all the wraparound services nothing will change. It was always supposed to be contract of choice. The IMO does not believe that anybody should be pressurised into changing his or her contract if they do not have to. It is a personal decision to change over to the new contract. I would say the Department of Health is quite happy with the numbers that have shifted.

That is not the impression we get from it. Points have been made about beds and key staff with regard to the predictions for population levels in 2030, and we are at that stage now.

I apologise for being in and out of the committee.

You are grand.

I was attending a meeting of the committee on European affairs and I was also speaking in the House. I thank all of the witnesses. I have not had a chance to read their presentations but I will do so later. I came to raise a specific issue in order that I could hear the views of the IMO on it. It is in the context of the HSE moratorium on the recruitment of staff, specifically the employment of non-consultant hospital doctors. A number of people in Sligo University Hospital have contacted me to say they have real problems with NCHD numbers, in particular in anaesthesia and intensive care medicine.

It is being said that the impact of that is threefold. First, it is affecting the doctors themselves and their own work-life balance. I refer to the astonishing statistics quoted earlier concerning the number of interns leaving. Second, hospitals should align with the NCHD contract and this does not seem to be happening. Patient safety is at risk of being compromised. The third thing is that if those extra NCHDs were there, then further surgical procedures could take place, so this situation is hampering the output of the surgical consults, etc. Across so many different areas, then, this is a bad decision. One of the things I will check is, at the end of it all, how much money will have been saved by this moratorium in the context of the extra time that staff have had to work to cover. This issue, though, is not for today but for another time when I will, hopefully, be able to get that information. My question concerns the fact that we are told that certain categories are not part of this moratorium and yet greater numbers of NCHDs cannot be got at Sligo hospital or, I presume, at other hospitals. Why is this happening?

Dr. Rachel McNamara

If I can start on that point, I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. It is a major issue and it is definitely not just the case in Sligo University Hospital. At the start of this recruitment embargo, we always said that those institutions that would suffer the most would be the model 2 and model 3 hospitals, of which Sligo hospital is one. This is because the complement of staff in those hospitals is, generally, not full. There generally are existing gaps in rosters already. When the embargo came in, those gaps then could not be filled. It was the employment complement in place just before the embargo came into place that counted, and this was the level at which hospitals were stuck.

Dr. Rachel McNamara

The impact is that those hospitals already under pressure to recruit and retain staff, because they are often in more remote areas and generally do not have the tertiary treatment centres that are very attractive to trainees, are already at a disadvantage. This embargo is a very blunt instrument to make the situations in those hospitals in particular worse. This is one of the many reasons we are against this embargo and want it to be lifted.

When it comes to the impact of not being able to recruit the NCHDs, there is a bit of confusion in the context of the embargo, in that NCHDs on formal training posts are excluded from it, but this is the group that is set out at the start of the year. If a service demand is then introduced in the course of the year, if there are record levels of presentations or if new services are introduced, the manpower departments are hamstrung in that they cannot recruit to fill the need. Sligo University Hospital is certainly feeling this impact. Many model 2 and model 3 hospitals are feeling this impact the most. When we talk about the cost-saving measures that will, ultimately, result from this embargo, and Ms Clyne has mentioned this point already, there are none. The work still needs to be done. It is the complement of NCHDs there already who end up having to do more and more overtime, which costs a premium. In fact, when we were on our comfort break, I checked my phone and locum requests had come in for unfilled NCHD shifts all around the country. I have signed up to locum agencies that issue requests when there are gaps to be filled in rosters. I am inundated with text messages in this regard. The locum agencies, therefore, are still being asked to fill vacant positions and these cost a premium too. If we could just appropriately and sustainably recruit staff into these hospitals, then we would not have to end up costing ourselves more money.

Ms Susan Clyne

I do not think there is much more to say on this point other than what Dr. McNamara has said.

Dr. McNamara put it perfectly. We should recruit staff appropriately and sustainably. We should let the system work, let the people in the system feel that it is working and let the patients in the system see that it is working, instead of this madness that has been described of these requests being made for locums for unfilled NCHD posts. To me, as someone completely outside the system and looking at what is happening from the outside, this is just a crazy way to do business. Is there any indication whatsoever that this moratorium may be coming to an end, that someone is beginning to see sense and that any flexibility is about to be introduced?

Before the witnesses respond, my next point is that I had not thought about what they said in regard to those hospitals that already had gaps in their rosters, perhaps because they found it that bit more difficult as a model 3 hospital to recruit and retain staff - Sligo University Hospital is a model 3 hospital - and that the cut-off point for the embargo came on a certain day and this was where the complement of staff remained. This means those hospitals were placed under greater pressure than some others. These would be all the hospitals in the Saolta region with the exception of Galway University Hospital. This tells us something about what is happening.

To return to the other point I just made concerning the moratorium, is there any sense at all that someone is looking at this situation objectively and saying there is a need to examine it and come up with a better alternative?

Ms Susan Clyne

No. Our understanding is that the pay and numbers strategy, which are the numbers of people in the various grades that the HSE can employ in posts that are funded for this year, is due to be published shortly. I have seen in media reports that the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, have been meeting about this issue. The recruitment embargo, therefore, is in place today and we do not know what the outcome of those pay and numbers strategy discussions will be.

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

I thank Deputy Harkin. I call Deputy Durkan.

I am not going to be drawn on the last reference to austerity because austerity is when there are options available, whereas necessity is when there are cuts that must be enforced and inflicted on everybody. All sectors of society had to be impacted, including education, health and the public service in general. The private sector also had to face cuts that were not welcomed by any means, nor could nor should they be. Those cuts were a necessity, however. It was a point in time when there was a stage at which we could either have gone forward or gone down and then remained down for a long time. I get sensitive when I hear references being made to that time because I remember it well. I was in the middle of it.

The other point is that I was thinking about the embargo and so on and this is seen as the big issue that should probably be resolved. I am not so sure that it will be. Given there has been a massive increase in staffing levels throughout the health services in general, and we know this and it is acknowledged, is there a suggestion that some quarters were overfilled when places had to be filled and others were not sufficiently augmented?

Ms Susan Clyne

I think we can only comment on the medical grades and we do not have enough doctors in the system.

What is the level of overall shortage in this area now compared to what it was before the beginning of this year?

Ms Susan Clyne

Well, I think it is more in the context of meeting demand. To meet demand, we need 6,000 consultants, whereas we currently have 4,500.

What are the probabilities of meeting that objective within a reasonable time whereby that we do not carry that into next year?

Ms Susan Clyne

Well, that again depends on the funded number of posts each year for the HSE. I come back to the point, though, that there is no point in hiring consultants if we do not have the facilities in which they can do their jobs.

That is quite true and this is where I made the reference to the national development plan and the number of health facilities that are in line for major augmentation in the foreseeable future. This is part and parcel of it, and new hospitals in several areas, and should be.

We all have to plan ahead. The demand today may be different in five years' time. We must also recognise that, as everybody has said, the population is going up. That is the case but, sadly, the world population is coming down. That is the way it is.

Ms Susan Clyne

I think our predicted population is going to increase and the number of those in the older age cohort is going to rapidly increase in the coming years. We can be fairly certain about the level of health services and the capacity that we require. I might ask my colleague, Dr. Gilligan, to respond to the Deputy's points.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

In relation to increases in certain areas, there is definitely a greater challenge for certain hospitals to recruit and a greater challenge for certain departments within hospitals to recruit and retain staff. That is largely due to the reputation some places have but it is also due to the resources available in those hospitals. For example, a surgical trainee is not going to want to go to a hospital where he knows that the likelihood of him being in theatre more than once a week is slim to nil. Therefore, that hospital is going to find it challenging to recruit surgical trainees. Emergency departments that are massively overcrowded do suffer challenges in recruiting and retaining staff. I certainly have had the experience of doctors resigning from the department in which I work because they just cannot tolerate the level of crowding in which they are expected to work. It is definitely the situation that certain areas find recruitment easier and it is more challenging for other areas. That is where the embargo was particularly harmful, because those challenged areas were then told they could not recruit above that level, even though they had not filled all of the required spaces to provide the expected level of care.

Consultant expansion does need to happen but, as Ms Clyne has said, it is very important that it happens in such a way that when a person takes up the post, he or she is facilitated in the delivery of the care he or she is trained to provide. For example, a specialist in emergency medicine should have an expectation that he is going to have some space in which to see the patients who are attending the department.

Interestingly, the recommendation from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine in the UK is that we should have one consultant in emergency medicine for every 3,500 patient attendances. There is not a department in Ireland that comes even close to half of that requirement. We are hugely challenged in terms of the number of consultants we have and the expectation of the care that will be provided by their teams.

I take the point about the cuts and the necessity for them, but we are no longer in that environment and yet the progress has been slower than it needs to be. I acknowledge that there has been investment but the investment is still not keeping pace with the requirements of our population in terms of healthcare provision.

I do not want to drag this on, Chair, but I can only say that when the IMF came in, it did not care where the cuts took place, it just said there would be cuts. Ms Clyne already said that it would do damage for generations but the IMF does not care. When cuts have to take place, they take place and the IMF does not discriminate between those who deserve cuts and those who do not.

Ms Susan Clyne

The point we are making is that, notwithstanding what happened at that time, we now do have money in this country and we should be investing in our health services.

We have more money than we had then, and for a whole variety of reasons, because of the sacrifices that we made - that people made, including the witnesses and everybody else – at that particular time, otherwise we would not have money now. That point should not be lost on anybody.

Dr. Peadar Gilligan

I hear what the Deputy is saying but the reality is that while the IMF may not care, we as a society have to care. We have to care when elderly patients are spending protracted periods on chairs in emergency departments.

This is my last question, Chairman. Are the witnesses suggesting that we should not have had to have the cuts imposed by the IMF?

Ms Susan Clyne

We said at the time, and I repeat, that the health services should have been protected.

I will conclude on this point. All I can say is that if we select one group in society to be treated differently to everybody else, the other groups in society, even though they may not be as fundamental to society, will resent them straight away. Unfortunately, we cannot do that.

Fortunately, we have come to an end.

It is not fortunate for me.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. They have given us a lot of issues to pursue. Before we finish, on behalf of the committee I again express appreciation to the witnesses for all the work the IMO's members give in their various roles in hospitals and the wider health service. I genuinely mean that. The view is shared right across the political spectrum. In spite of all the challenges we face within the health system, there is a significant amount of positive work going on, day in, day out. I accept what the witnesses say about the challenges facing their members. I do not think anyone would disagree with the points made about unsafe practices due to long hours. We have listened to what was said about burnout and so on. We all accept that there are huge gaps within the health service. Let us hope we can follow up on a number of the issues that were raised here this morning with the various individuals we will meet in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.26 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 May 2024.
Top
Share