I thank the committee. I suggest that Mr. Donall O'Keeffe of the Licensed Vintners' Association representing all the pubs in Dublin City and county might lead off and I will follow.
Licensed Vintners’ Association: Presentation.
I ask the speakers to be as brief as possible. I know they are used to giving presentations but we need to leave time for a question and answer session.
Mr. Kevin Towey
I am chairman of the Licensed Vintners' Association. My family has more than 40 years experience in the licensed trade in Dublin and I have been involved in the business for 20 years. My colleague, Derry Kealy, has lifelong experience in the licensed trade as well, his father having operated a pub in Cork City before coming to Dublin in 1964. They have been in business for well nigh on 40 years in Dublin as well. I would also like to introduce Mr. Donall O'Keeffe who has recently been appointed chief executive of the Licensed Vintners' Association replacing Mr. Frank Fell with whom everyone is probably familiar. I ask Mr. O'Keeffe to make our presentation to the committee.
Mr. Donall O’Keeffe
We have already circulated a submission to committee members and I do not propose to go through it laboriously but rather to highlight some of the key points we believe are central to this important issue.
The licensed trade is one of the most highly regulated businesses in the country. We strongly contend that the pub is the most controlled environment in which to consume alcohol.
Does Mr. O'Keeffe have copies of his presentation for members?
Mr. O’Keeffe
Yes. I will give it to the clerk.
We believe that is a key point. Secondly, we would like to point out that our members are fully committed to upholding the law. Thirdly, and equally importantly, we are proactive and committed to being part of the solution to issues around the misuse and abuse of alcohol among young people. Proof of this can be evidenced by the fact that we are involved in working groups with the Garda; that we are involved in the development of the responsible server programme along with certain other members of the trade; that we have invested heavily in our premises, in staff training and all that goes with that; and that we have been involved in the establishment of MEAS which is an industry-wide organisation to promote social responsibility and responsible use of alcohol. It should not be forgotten that publicans are parents and family men themselves and concerned on this issue at a personal level.
Contextually it should be noted that we feel that concerns should not centre around alcohol but rather on its abuse and misuse. Such an issue is a society wide problem so it cannot be tackled by simplistic one-dimensional approaches. All solutions should be constructed within a broad societal context. In that light we feel there are a number of important developments over the past decade that must be taken into account. Socio-economically the country has transformed itself over the past decade. Within that context there has been considerable media coverage of the 41% increase in alcohol consumption over that period. However, the contributing factors to this have to be recognised, including most importantly a 22% rise in the population within the drinking age during that period, rises in GDP, tourism, disposable income and in female participation in the work force. Significantly, there have been dramatic changes as well over the past decade. The key change has been the significant growth in the numbers of people drinking at home, with almost a quarter of all adults now doing so weekly. In addition, people's attitudes to alcohol have changed, particularly the attitudes of young people. The text outlines how we feel about this but there have been significant changes here and this must be recognised.
A little recognised and probably under-researched issue is the combination of drink and drugs. This is a significant factor in the levels of aggression and tension in late night venues and city centres across the country. Importantly, there has also been a lessening of personal responsibility for actions, a loosening of parental control and a dramatic increase in peer pressure among young people and in society generally. All these are factors which contribute to issues of alcohol abuse among young people. Finally, in terms of our context we wish to point out the dramatic changes that have occurred in alcohol marketing channels over the past decade, in particular the rapid growth in off-licences for canned beers and spirits which are the drinks of choice for young people.
In order to be part of the solution and to be proactive on this important issue we have come up with a set of proposals and recommendations that we believe would help address it. Principal among these is the rapid introduction of a free mandatory age card for 18 to 25 year olds. This has received support from Government, the Garda, MEAS, the task force on alcohol, teachers and parents. Publicans should have enhanced discretion on the right to refuse admission and service. In particular we would argue that with regard to people up to the age of 23, the publican has at his or her discretion the right to refuse, notwithstanding the provisions of the Equal Status Act. We also believe advertisement of alcohol should not be designed to promote excessive alcohol consumption. We are working closely with the Garda and other members of the drinks trade on the eighth and hopefully final draft of a code of practice and house rules for the running of public premises, which we hope to put in practice in the second half of the year.
In terms of legislation, we strongly believe that the perpetrator of underage drinking, or any adult who gets involved in secondary purchasing of alcohol for underage people, should be severely punished. This would bring greater balance to the legislation. In that context we continue to believe that publicans who knowingly or repeatedly serve underage drinkers should have the full force of the law brought to bear on them. Importantly, over the longer term, we believe there should be a focused educational programme targeted at young people to educate and influence them on responsible use and consumption of alcohol.
The Dublin publicans and the LVA are committed to the responsible consumption of alcohol in society. It is in our long-term interests. It is in the interests of the trade and industry generally that this issue is properly addressed. However, we are but one element of the alcohol trade. The issues surrounding young people and alcohol abuse are society-wide, and accordingly the solution must be strategic and integrative in its approach, involving all relevant Government Departments, the drinks industry, parents and individuals themselves. To this end, we particularly welcome the recommendation of the Commission on Liquor Licensing on developing a national alcohol strategy. We strongly emphasise the role of parents and of young people themselves in this and believe that people have to be more responsible and more accountable for their own actions. We remain committed and proactive in the development of a successful solution.
Thank you.
I will try to pick out some of the more salient points in our submission. You will find that there is a great deal of similarity between the position adopted by the Licensed Vintners' Association representing the Dublin pubs, and ourselves, representing the rest of the country.
Alcohol has actually been enjoyed in Ireland since ancient times. The responsible consumption of alcohol is recognised throughout the world as being healthy, beneficial, and indeed sociable. There are almost 100,000 people engaged or employed, full or part-time in the brewing, distilling, distribution and retail of alcohol in Ireland. Therefore, it is a major economic industry. There are social, economic, fiscal and health benefits, as recognised by no less a body than the World Health Organisation. Unfortunately, the greater portion of the focus on alcohol in recent years, and in particular in recent months, has been negative. The focus has been on the misuse and abuse, particularly by the young, often with the support, active or passive, of their parents and elder siblings and friends. Inevitably, when alcohol is abused by youngsters, society and those with responsibility for the youngsters find an easy scapegoat by blaming not the youngster or the person who procured the alcohol for them, but the alcohol itself, or indeed the publican's trade, irrespective of where the alcohol has been procured.
I was recently challenged at a forum not unlike this one by a lady because, when she and her husband were returning home at 2 a.m. they found their 13 year old daughter drunk at the side of the road. She ignored the fact that the child was merely 13, that the child was drunk and was under no parental or any other control. As far as she was concerned, the problem related to a pub, although she had no idea where the alcohol had been procured.
The recent "Prime Time" programme last November showed violence, drunkenness and alcohol abuse at an outrageous level, and nowhere in that programme was there any mention or question of the responsibility of the people who had consumed the alcohol and indeed perpetrated the outrageous violence. A few weeks later, a similar programme on UTV showed that we had exactly the same problems in Belfast and right across Northern Ireland. Last month, the BBC showed a similar programme about experiences in Manchester and Newcastle, particularly since the advent of the new licensing regime there. Anybody who watches Sky TV showing youngsters, mostly admittedly British but some Irish as well, on holiday in Ibiza, Greece and other such resorts, knows that their main focus is on drink, not for socialising and not for fun, but to get drunk as quickly as possible.
We have to recognise that society has changed, youngsters are now maturing much earlier and becoming more independent and more confident. For a variety of reasons they have more disposable income and have thrown off the shackles of parental control much earlier. They are becoming sexually active much younger and it is no surprise that they are experimenting with alcohol at a younger age.
It has been suggested that the increase in alcohol abuse that has manifested itself in Ireland in the last couple of years can be traced to the increase in pub opening hours under the 2000 Act. The 2000 Act increased the pub opening hours by a total of three hours per week, and the increase in consumption and abuse has been taking place since 1991, nine years before the introduction of the Act. Following the introduction of the new hours in the 2000 Act, there was no increase in either beer or spirits consumption in 2001 while the figure fell in 2002. These years did see a significant increase in wine consumption, but we would argue that wine is not the drink of choice of those who are abusing alcohol. We have seen a 40% increase in consumption from 1991 to 2000, but in the same period there was a 28% increase in the population of drinking age in that period, and the number of visitors to Ireland, all or most of whom enjoy a visit to a pub, increased from three million to 6.2 million.
In common with our sister organisation the LVA, the VFI believes the licensed trade has a responsibility to help to tackle alcohol abuse. We cannot do it alone, we need the support, particularly of legislators, the Government, the Garda and of course parents where youngsters are concerned. The trade has taken its own steps and Donal O'Keeffe has mentioned some of them - the responsible serving of alcohol in conjunction with the Department of Health and Children, the Garda youth policy, MEAS and the house rules. Unfortunately, we have to say that we are getting mixed signals from the Government. The Department of Health and Children works with us on the responsible serving programme, while another Department and other Government agencies cry out for extending the number of licensed outlets and the availability of alcohol across the country. We have a demand that perhaps every coffee shop and café should have a liquor licence. We have 13,000 licences in this country for a population of less than four million. That is the heaviest concentration of licensed premises anywhere in the world. Do we really need more? We have to recognise that we have too many outlets for alcohol in this State. We need to ensure that we learn the dreadful lessons of other jurisdictions which dramatically increased the availability of alcohol through more licences with dramatically increased consequences.
So what do we need? We say, along with our colleagues in the LVA, that we need a mandatory ID or age card. We need to ensure that those who forge or falsify an age card or those who use such a card to dupe a licensee on or off the premises into procuring alcohol, should be held responsible for that action. Those underage who consume alcohol should be held responsible and the current position where a publican can have his or her premises closed for up to a month while the teenager is merely ticked off and sent on his merry way should be changed. We have the case in the west where three youngsters found to have false IDs on their persons were complimented by a district judge for coming forward and identifying the pub where they claimed they got alcohol. Where a parent buys or supplies alcohol to a child, it is now the licensee who is charged, which is neither justice nor just. We too welcome the recommendations of the Liquor Licensing Commission with regard to the prevention and control of drunkenness, violence and violent or threatening behaviour, and urge the Oireachtas to restore to the licensed trade the right to protect itself, its family and its customers.
On the issue of violence, it is clear that we need more gardaí on the beat and on the street, especially at the hours of greatest need. The presence of gardaí on the street will undoubtedly have a major impact on the reduction of violence.
Many pubs, as has been pointed out, used an over 21s policy or an over 23s policy to ensure that they were not conned by youngsters under 18, but in 2000 the Oireachtas made that illegal. It is now illegal for a pub to apply an over 21s or over 23s policy. We believe that freedom should be restored.
A publican who engages in deep discounting or price promotions in-house which are designed to encourage binge drinking or excessive consumption should face challenges to the renewal of his licence in the court because such practices are reprehensible, and I think we share this view with the Licensed Vintners' Association. The licensed trade has played its part and will continue to play its part in tackling the problem. We have succeeded in preventing the introduction to the market of many products, such as alcopops and vodka jellies, which clearly were designed for youngsters. We must recognise that there is no single quick fix. If there is genuine co-operation and combined effort and some recognition of personal responsibility, whether that is by the children or by their parents, as well as by the licensed trade, we can succeed, as we must succeed.
In regard to the violence that we see on our streets, it makes little sense to blame the licensed trade or alcohol where somebody uses a knife or other similar weapon they have carried with them as they go out to socialise. I know of no pub that sells knives or other weapons. Such weapons are carried with the intention of assault. There is no denying the existence of the problem of alcohol abuse. We believe it is the culture, not the product that creates the problem. Thousands enjoy alcohol and few abuse it.
We will work with anybody and we want to work with the Oireachtas and State agencies to seek a reduction in the level of abuse, which is in society's interest. Of the people I represent, 80% have family run pubs where the parents have the same concerns as those in the rest of society.
Thank you for you presentation. We met the accident and emergency consultants and they painted a dreadful picture of accident and emergency facilities, particularly at weekends, of young people being admitted in an almost comatose state. Some of them levelled the criticism directly at publicans. Is it not a fair criticism to say that the vintners have been reactive rather than proactive? This problem has been around for a long time and the code of practice that is now being espoused should have been implemented long ago.
Public representatives have received criticisms about how publicans have introduced early bird and voucher schemes that are designed to ensure young people come to the pub earlier and drink more. Why has the topping up drinks before closing time not been addressed?
I have a major problem with the irony of publicans having security on the doors to prohibit the entry of people who are drunk and disorderly while those who get drunk on the premises are thrown onto the street and become the responsibility of someone else. There has been no liaison between the Garda and publicans regarding public order. While it is fair to say we need more gardaí on the street, publicans cannot have it both ways. They cannot put security on their doors preventing entry yet send drunk and disorderly patrons onto the street.
I would like to take on the question of being reactive rather than proactive. I have been chief executive of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland for 21 years. The VFI was responsible for the establishment of a group called CARADAS three years before I became involved. The purpose of the group was to promote the responsible consumption of alcohol. It invited gardaí, parents, teachers and others to work with us and spread the message proactively. Unfortunately, the group lasted for approximately four years. For the year and a half I was in it I found myself sitting at the table alone. We were proactive in 1979 and still attempting to be proactive in 1983 but received no support.
Similarly, long before the present hiatus received the attention it is receiving, my organisation was responsible for placing laminating machines in Garda stations throughout the country, including three in the Chairm
an's constituency, to provide identity cards. We provided the pouches and cards to the Garda with a view to ensuring that youngsters of legal age had an opportunity to get an identity card to prove their age. As these schemes were localised they did not succeed. In west Cork and other areas there was such a mobile population with visitors to the area that the schemes fell asunder despite the enormous investment, relative to our income, over four or five years.
In 1999 we recognised the difficulties created by the release of the junior certificate results. We invested a huge amount of money in public advertising to prevent youngsters abusing alcohol at that time. We have also done this over the years in conjunction with the National Safety Association regarding drink driving over the Christmas period. We are not new converts; we have been here for a long time.
On the question of early bird vouchers, we do not subscribe to deep discounting or incentives for people to get drunk. That is not the business we are in. Our members have an obligation to be responsible. However, we are a trade association and not a policing organisation. When we attempt to move against members who engage in illegal practices, no matter how reprehensible, we are quickly faced with a legal challenge. We cannot expel someone for doing something that is legal. We do not subscribe to topping up, deep discounting or any incentive that encourages people to drink to excess or get drunk.
Members have security at the doors of their premises at enormous cost. The security helps protect not just the licensee, but his staff and customers inside the premises. There is no doubt that people get drunk and drink to excess in premises, and often do so without the knowledge of the licensee. We have worked closely with the Garda, including the commissioner's office, the Garda liaison commission and spent three years on a select committee with the Garda to find ways to tackle this. The house rules we mentioned earlier arose from this. The Garda have agreed to establish liaison groups in each superintendent's area throughout the country.
While we are concerned that the problem exists, we find it difficult to accept the charge that we have not been proactive until now.
I thank the associations for making their presentations. Committee members are extremely concerned about the circumstances that now exist. Over the last ten years we have seen a 41% increase in alcohol consumption. The overall market has increased by 233% in the last 11 years. The effects of this are evident in the impact on people's health. We heard from accident and emergency consultants and they painted a graphic and disturbing picture. There has been an extraordinary increase in the breakdown of law and public order. Publicans have been witnessing the change that has occurred. While they may feel they have made efforts, the view of most people is that while publicans have benefited enormously from the changes, they have not done what needs to be done to ensure things did not get out of control. There have been high profile cases of pubs providing unlimited drinking for a set charge, which is clearly targeted at young people. In one case the charge was €40. Measures which assist binge drinking seem to be part of the service. The chief executive of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland says he does not approve of this, but that disapproval is clearly not very effective. I appreciate he is not solely to blame and that everybody has to play a part in this, but does he accept that to tackle the abuse of alcohol, which is now endemic, business will have to go down? The mushrooming in the market will have to be reversed. Does the Chairman accept that one of the most effective measures is to ban advertising to reduce consumption?
There is a difference between the presentation of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland and the presentation of the Licensed Vintners' Association, though they say they are compatible. The LVA proposals and recommendations are concrete and clear-cut and could be looked at favourably with a certain amount of tweaking. They could be delivered on if we had a Government that was clear-cut in its alcohol policy. The presentation by the Vintners' Federation of Ireland is quite different in that it does not have clear recommendations although it does connect with the other in some ways. Is there any divergence? Can we say that the recommendations of the LVA represent vintners right across the country, or do they represent only the views of some of the more responsible ones?
How can we ensure that the age card and the enhanced discretion to refuse do not end up being measures which simply suit publicans rather than mechanisms for dealing with the problem we face, which should be the focus? People argue that reintroducing the old closing hour on a Sunday would be of benefit. My heart sinks when I pass a pub, particularly on a Sunday, in which I see people drinking pints while small children run around. Nothing will happen to them until much later in the day when the parents go home. It is an unsavoury way for people to use their leisure time.
I thank the delegates for visiting the committee. We are all agreed that there is a huge problem of underage drinking. I concur with the contention in the presentations that the problem is multifactorial, but like the Chairman and Deputy McManus, I believe the vintners in Dublin and in the rest of the country have a significant role to play. I welcome the fact that the vintners advocate the introduction of the age card. As organisations or individuals, are vintners prepared to help offset the cost of the introduction of such a card?
Mr. O'Sullivan answered my next question to a certain extent. There are rogue members in the trade and I note from my own area that the Vintners' Federation of Ireland and the Licensed Vintners' Association are keen to take action against them. Is it not possible, despite what Mr. O'Sullivan said, that Dublin vintners could change their rules to allow for the expulsion of members who break those rules? What other action can be taken?
How do the vintners' organisations feel about the raising of the age limit to 21 from 18? It is my impression that underage drinking is a nationwide problem, but there appears to be a great difference in the rate of successful prosecutions in various parts of the country. In the west it is higher than along the east coast. Do the delegates have any comments to make on that matter?
I welcome both organisations. Do they agree there are two problems, one of underage drinking and one of drinking by those over 18? The contributors have dealt with the issue of young people to some extent but there is a lack of effectiveness on the ground. There is an absolute need to control the level of drinking by everybody. While the vintners' organisations aspire to address this, there is very little evidence that it is being done unless a customer becomes totally out of order and is disorderly in a bar itself rather than elsewhere. Some people feel publicans are only concerned to ensure that people are not disorderly in bars. The organisations may distance themselves from this attitude, but if they distance themselves from everything they will be ineffective even in terms of consultation. That may be an exaggeration, but the vintners cannot distance themselves from everything.
There are people coming on to the streets from bars who engage in violence and other anti-social activities by making a nuisance of themselves and interfering with the enjoyment of others of post-drinking activities such as going for a bag of chips. People have been seriously injured as in the high profile incident in Grafton Street last week. There is a view that to publicans disorder outside is someone else's responsibility as long as disorder in the bar is avoided. I would like the vintners to comment on that. I am expressing a genuine and widespread belief.
Mr. Towey
It is unfair to say the Licensed Vintners' Association does not try to discourage price driven promotions and all-in prices which allow people to drink as much as they can. There was a very high profile case recently in which the LVA was actively involved in ensuring that a promotion came to an end, though it did not receive publicity. We were involved with Government in relation to that and the Government will be aware of how proactive we were in discouraging that behaviour. We actively discourage the involvement of any of our members in a promotion of the sort outlined.
Did you threaten to expel that member from the Licensed Vintners' Association? Nowhere in your presentation is there reference to any question of expulsion of anybody from the LVA.
Mr. Towey
All I can say is that the matter was dealt with internally by the LVA and the promotion was discontinued promptly after we made representations. We continue to take such action. The Licensed Vintners' Association will take measures to ensure that its members do not get involved in promotions of that nature.
Reduction in business is not an issue for us in terms of addressing the problems we face. We want to be part of the solution, though we do not believe we are the problem. If solving the problem involves business declining, so be it. This question is not commercially driven in the short run. We see that for the good of society and our business in the long-term, the issue must be addressed now and we are willing to take whatever measures are necessary even if it costs us in the short-term.
Deputy McManus mentioned children running around pubs, which is an issue. Most publicans discourage children and ask parents to leave their premises after a certain period of time. We have not been helped by the Equal Status Act 2000 and there was a very high profile case last year in which it was found that a claimant was entitled to be served on family grounds. The person had a child with him in the pub and therefore he was refused on family grounds. Many publicans do refuse parents with children. The responsibility and emphasis seems to be thrown on the publican. If I had children in the pub I would have thought that they would be my responsibility. Part of the problem of the abuse of alcohol is a lack of personal responsibility and a lack of parental responsibility. It is time for society to gets its head around the fact that, firstly people are responsible for their own actions and secondly, that parents are responsible for their children. As publicans, we are quite willing to take our share of the responsibility but we believe that others have to do that as well which is a major part of the current problem.
I am trying to run through some of the other issues. We are willing to take action in relation to rogue members. There are 750 plus members in Dublin and 7,000 members nationwide between the VFI and ourselves and we are not going to say that every publican who is a member of one of our organisations is not in breach of either the spirit or the letter of the law in regard to these issues. We will continue to take action against anyone we believe is not entering into this thing in the right spirit.
Perhaps Mr. O'Sullivan wishes to take up some of the points that were made.
Mr. Towey might give someone else a chance. Mr. Hanley is bursting for an opportunity.
Mr. Val Hanley
No, I am not. We represent the LVA and the VFI but there are at least another three organisations involved in the drinks industry. Comments were made about security on the doors and people being thrown out drunk onto the streets and committing violence. Deputy Neville referred to that as well. It is necessary to qualify the time that the trouble is occurring. It would be unfair to label all publicans in that category because I do not think that happens. The people we represent would only be open until 12.30 a.m.
I spoke with an off-licence company yesterday that is based in Galway and its projection for the take-home market is that it is going through the roof and will continue to do so. I am not sure if it is preferable to have people drinking at home rather than in a controlled environment. The point about the time needs to be clarified.
I would just like to pick up on a couple of points. It would be unfair to say that we do not approve of the binge drinking and the paying of €40 to drink as much as one likes. It is not simply that we do not approve, but we abhor it. I have landed myself in a position where I am threatened with court action because of the activities of some members of the VFI during a recent rag week. That does not frighten me. We have threatened to remove five members from our roll of membership within the past couple of months because of such actions. The threat appears to have worked but if it does not we are prepared to follow it through. It is not that we do not approve, we actively disapprove. We feel that it is totally abhorrent and destroys the image and reputation of the licensed trade which we have to protect.
If we are all more responsible the likelihood is that business will fall and that is a price we will all have to pay. It is a price society will have to pay because there will be reduced excise returns as well. That is an outcome we have to accept.
We really have a serious problem in regard to children in pubs. We thought that we had the answer in the 1988 Intoxicating Liquor Act where it was illegal for a child to be on a licensed premises except in exceptional circumstances where the licensee could permit the child to be on the premises accompanied by his or her parents. The famous Glimmerman case that has been referred to turned that on its head as a result of the Equal Status Act. I continue to advise my members to put up signs saying that no children are allowed on the premises after 6 or 7 o'clock in the evening. I recognise this may be open to challenge but we are prepared to defend those who are so challenged because a pub is no place for a child at 10, 11 or 12 o'clock at night and we have experienced that. Yes, it is acceptable in the summer when parents bring the child into the pub for an evening meal or a snack of sausage and chips. It is not acceptable to either of the licensed vintners' associations for a child of two, three or six years of age to be running around a pub at 10 or 11 o'clock at night.
I agree that we have a role to play. We believe that we must be involved in the solution. There are some 13,000 licensed vintners in the country and it would be silly for us to claim that they are all angels. Of course there are rogue licensees - there are rogue off-licensees, rogue supermarket members and there are rogue publicans. We want the Oireachtas to help us to weed them out. If somebody is engaged in deep discounting and the price promotions that were referred to that should be a reason for an objection to a renewal of their licenses.
We have a fairly clear-cut agreement with the LVA in terms of our recommendations. We need a mandatory age card. We need people to be responsible. We need parents to be responsible where they buy alcohol. This is a problem that continually comes to my desk. What is the publican to do if the mother or father bought the drink for the youngster? The publican says he cannot put them out because if he does he will lose their custom. The mother or father will say they are entitled to be there and to allow their child to drink. We want to see those with responsibilities meeting them. We will exercise our responsibility within the pub but our members cannot be expected to be able to exercise their responsibility when an incident happens a mile and a half away outside the local chipper that is open at 4 o'clock in the morning. As Mr. Hanley said, we also have to look at the times that these incidents take place.
Mr. Browne
I agree with Mr. O'Sullivan. Public order offences usually happen about 2.30 p.m. or 3 a.m. The majority of my members are ordinary publicans who close at 11.30 p.m. and people are out at 12 o'clock. We accept that there is a major problem. There is an awful lot of drink available in the home at the moment. Young people are drinking at home before they go out to the pubs. After the pub they go to discos which close at 2.30 a.m. or 3 a.m., which we must address. The problem is not all drink-related either. Drugs are being taken. We never had that problem years ago but drugs are now playing a major part in public disorder.
Deputy Devins asked a question about prosecutions in the west versus Dublin. Is there a cosy little arrangement with the Garda in Dublin in view of the fact that there are so few prosecutions in the Dublin area?
Mr. Towey
Perhaps as a working publican I might answer that. I know that committee members might find it difficult to accept but we strongly believe that the reason for that is that the majority of pubs in Dublin are extremely well run. I am not saying for a moment that pubs in the west are not well run. We have procedures in place and strong in-house rules and regulations. We believe that if one goes into the majority of pubs in Dublin, in fact any pub that I know, underage people will not be found.
In regard to the Garda enforcing the law I can say absolutely that gardaí have been very active, particularly in the past six or seven months in patrolling pubs and coming in and asking young people for ID. We have seen that in our own premises and are hearing that from our members as well. I am not saying that there is not an underage drinking problem in Dublin but they are not sourcing that drink in pubs. I cannot say where young people are getting their drink. The figures are showing in the past number of years that the on-trade business has dropped while the off-trade business is increasing. If there is a problem which has been developing over the past couple of years of young people sourcing drink in the on-trade then why have the figures for this area been dropping over the past two to three years? I was speaking to somebody in the Guinness organisation and they said the on-trade figures have dropped dramatically in the last year. Nobody is saying that the problem of underage drinking or the abuse of alcohol has fallen in the last year. The reason for a low level of prosecutions in Dublin is that the vast majority of pubs in Dublin are well run. They take this issue very seriously. The penalties are draconian and nobody in their right mind in the licensed trade is going to serve an underage person and risk the type of penalties that now exist.
I would like to hear what the VFI has to say about that. While the figures show a percentage fall in consumption in regard to licensed premises, if one does the figures one will find that in real terms there has been an increase in the past ten years.
Mr. Towey
Is that in real terms?
Both in market share and in your——
Mr. Towey
I was speaking about the last two to three years. The overall drinks market for last year has fallen by 4%. The fall has been far bigger in the on-licence trade than in the off-licence trade.
We must move on.
I welcome the delegation. In the mid-1980s I was a publican. I am sure the members of the delegation have been coming to sessions like this for the past 20 years, as well as other groups, but if I hear of another such report I think I will get sick. In the mid-1980s we dealt with the Garda Síochána, schools and parents organisations, and we introduced identity cards. Unfortunately, however, there is a drinking culture in Ireland, which has to be tackled now.
Having discussed the matter with A&E consultants, radical steps will have to be taken. First, would the delegation agree that we will have to review the off-licence trade? We may have to tax spirits and reduce the opening hours of off-licence premises. Second, would the delegation agree that we will have to investigate the possibility of not serving spirits in licensed premises to people under 23 years of age? The problem is within that age group. These are radical proposals and we should also examine the possibility of limiting purchases to one drink at a time, as happens in parts of the United States. When people top up their consumption with two or three drinks it is a problem.
We all have a duty to work together but if the alcohol industry does not tackle this problem it will become like the tobacco industry, which has been subject to litigation. That will happen in years to come. I do not want to see any more reports because unless radical steps are taken the delegation will be coming in here in ten years time and we will still have the same problem. These radical proposals need to be introduced, otherwise the problem will not be dealt with and alleviated.
I welcome the delegation. I want to address the issue of young women who are being particularly targeted by the drinks industry at the moment. The delegation members say they are very much against incentives to encourage people to drink too much. Recently, however, in the women's lavatories of the arts block in Trinity College - it could not have been aimed at men - I saw an advertisement from a pub which was offering three vodkas and something else for €10. I do not think the advertisement said that one had to bring two friends - it looked much more like what Senator Feighan mentioned, whereby someone stacks up three drinks. I would like to hear the delegation's views on that matter, if they say they are not encouraging binge drinking.
There is another important matter about which I only have anecdotal evidence. Young women tell me that the drinks given to them in pubs include three measures of vodka and a can of Red Bull, all served in a pint glass. There is a rising incidence of cirrhosis of the liver in women in their 20s and 30s. That sort of drink is certainly not helpful to anyone's health. Does the delegation have any control over, or thoughts about, people being served drinks like that?
I, too, welcome both groups. Underage drinking is at crisis level today. I recognise that there is no quick solution, which is what the delegation has said but I also get a feeling that there is genuine concern from both groups along with a willingness to help. Rather than repeat what has already been said, my concern is about off-licences where young people are buying drink before they go into pubs. I have read the LVA's house rules and while I welcome the recommendation for ID cards, I question whether they are likely to be forged or doctored, as all other ID cards have been to date. In welcoming that recommendation, however, I question some of the LVA's rules, in particularly the first two: "Intoxicated persons will not be served on the premises" and "Excessive purchasing of alcohol or binge drinking will not be permitted". However, young people are going into pubs from their homes or elsewhere half tanked, yet they are still being served and are allowed to binge drink on the premises. I would like to see ID cards being introduced for everybody, not just non-regulars.
Item 6 of the LVA's house rules states that "neat or appropriate dress is essential at all times". I know about this from experience because my own son is a 20 year old student who likes music. He has long hair and wears tatty jeans. He is not a trouble-maker and does not go out to cause trouble but he has gone into several pubs in our town where bouncers have stopped him saying "Do not even think about it". He is a third level student and goes around with other third level kids who look like him. They are not binge drinking or causing problems but they are not gaining entry.
I am glad to have an opportunity to speak as I have been trying to contribute for some time. I welcome the presentation and I know that the pub is an important element in rural areas where there has been a lack of Government commitment to providing proper social services. I take issue, however, with a number of points. Mr. Towey said, "We will not talk about alcohol, we will talk about the abuse of alcohol", but high consumption is a big worry. The 2002 report of the strategic task force on alcohol referred to the importance of per capita consumption and its link to alcohol-related harm, in the last number of years, in the European context. One of the conclusions drawn by the report was that given the current rate of overall alcohol consumption in Europe, an increase in consumption at the aggregate of population will increase alcohol-related harm, which is true. The report said that if the rate continues, Ireland will shortly have the highest level of alcohol consumption in western Europe. If that is not a problem then I do not know what is.
That problem is manifest across the board. I do not have to give the committee the precise figures as casualty consultants have already done so, but alcohol is a factor in one in four people attending Dublin accident and emergency units. I have treated drunken teenagers and have seen them in pubs. Delinquency and marriage break-ups are occurring across the board because of alcohol. I am not saying the licensed vintners are totally responsible but they are part of the team so they are part of the solution.
Consumption has risen by 41%, which begs the question as to what has happened and what we can do to solve it. The strategic task force on alcohol made some highly effective suggestions that could make a difference. Teenage suicide has gone way up and there has been a big increase in the 15-29 year old cohort generally. Suicide is the biggest cause of death among the 15-35 year old age group. Alcohol plays an important part in this so what is being done to prevent it? I realise that publicans displayed notices about the date rape drug, Rohypnol, in pubs, which asked "What are you doing to protect yourself from the effects?" Now that we know the date rape drug is not Rohypnol, but alcohol, what will be done? Will publicans put up notices about that as well?
A proven effective strategy in reducing damage from alcohol is lowering the legal blood-alcohol level. When it was proposed some years ago that the legal limit should be lowered from 80mg to 50mg, the licensed vintners lobbied against it but what is their attitude now? Will something be done about the fact that in pubs soft drinks cost as much as hard drinks? What choice do people have in that situation? I am in favour of local people running pubs but superpubs have gone beyond that. What is your attitude to blood alcohol levels and being proactive with regard to dealing with the date rape drug?
I find this meeting somewhat unreal because we are asking a group of people to say how they propose to contain the sale of things which it is their purpose to sell. We are asking them to engage in activities which will give rise to a conflict of interest. I do not doubt the sincerity of the members of the delegations but when reading their documents I understand why they blame everybody else. It is unrealistic to ask you to curtail your sales of drink because I understand you are in the business of selling as much drink as possible. It may not be a very pleasurable realisation, but you are in the business of profit.
Do you see a conflict of interest in curtailing the sale of drink when your business is making money out of drink? Looking at members of the delegation, it occurs to me that I would like to be a licensed vintner. What must be done to be a licensed vintner? Are you purely a trade organisation and, if so, are you suited to what we ask of you? You are not a social organisation. Should somebody else be involved in policing this? Let me repeat, you are in your business for profit. It is the only reason you are in it and to ask you to do anything else is absurd. Perhaps we should suggest that other parties be involved.
Do you need any training or qualification to be a licensed vintner? Mr. O'Sullivan referred to a figure of 13,000 and suggested there should be less. Are you running a closed shop? Does one require a lot of money to become involved in the business or is it a case of inherited wealth and pubs? Can anybody be a licensed vintner?
You are generally recognised as being one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the country, especially regarding your influence over Fianna Fáil.
We are blamed for everything.
Perhaps you could tell us a little about your lobbying, what you have done and what contributions you make to political parties, especially to individuals. You have links with a Member of Seanad Éireann, which is a privileged position to hold. Senator Bohan is nominated by you and is an effective Member. What lobbying do you do elsewhere and how effective is it? What do you do in terms of entertaining Deputies and Senators and making contributions to political parties? How effective have you found it?
I welcome the two delegations. Are the longer opening hours causing a problem? Your members hold conflicting views on this. What is your view? Would you consider advising your members, of both the LVA and the VFI, not to sell alcopops? The correlation between the sale of alcopops and underage drinking is well established. It would be a gesture of goodwill on your part if you were to advise your members not to sell them. While it would not be a panacea in terms of curing all the ills with which we are concerned, it would be a help.
On the question of troublemakers, would you agree to consider a model that has obtained in north Wales, where a blanket ban is imposed on known troublemakers? The names and addresses of individuals are published on pub noticeboards. It is a good idea and should be considered.
None of us have the gift of bi-location. What screening do you do on your bar staff when you employ somebody? You cannot always be there. Are you satisfied - I am sure you are - that those you employ will be as vigilant as yourselves in ensuring that those to whom you sell are the appropriate age and so on?
I agree with your view on parental control. However, there is plenty of parental control in that children control their parents very well. That is where the problem arises.
On the question of deciding whether people have too much drink taken, would you be prepared to ask the Minister to enshrine in legislation or by way of regulation your right to use breathalysers? These are extreme proposals, but we are dealing with an extreme situation. If anybody has a better suggestion I would like to hear it.
To deal with Senator Glynn's points first, longer opening hours appear to cause a problem for some of our members but not others. It took a great deal of discussion to ascertain what kind of opening hours our members wanted. With regard to the lobbying suggested by Senator Ross, we were not successful in getting what we sought, so that may say something about the strength of our lobby. With 6,500 members, there will be those who want to stay open all night and maybe those who want to close at 6 p.m. The Senator is asking me to address a question that has a very mixed answer. Many of our members consider that longer hours are beneficial while many want to get to bed early and do not want them. Generally, our members would be in favour of the current hours.
In the case of those who are not in favour of the current hours, perhaps you would clarify their reasons.
We differ slightly from the position of the LVA, in that while many Dublin pubs are also family run, many of our members live on the premises, which creates its own problems, especially where they have youngsters. However, there is no specific group with some members in favour of longer hours and others against them. Given that there are approximately 7,000 licensees in the two organisations, there will be a divergence of views. However, on balance, a significant majority of our members support the longer hours.
What about the Minister's proposal that the power to grant licences would be delegated to local authorities, which would take account of urban and rural considerations?
I understand the Minister has said a number of different things on that aspect. Our understanding is contained in the final report of the Liquor Licensing Commission. I am aware the committee does not want to see any more reports but, unfortunately, they are a feature of life. It suggests that the local authority would be effectively able to declare or pass a resolution providing that nightclubs within its jurisdiction should close at a particular hour. This is not the same as local authorities deciding that pubs in their jurisdiction should close at different times to those in adjoining jurisdictions. I quoted the example of Drogheda, which is covered by Louth County Council, Meath County Council and Drogheda Town Commissioners. This could effectively mean that three different pub opening hours would pertain within an area of a mile and half. That would create problems for the licensed trade and the Garda. It would also encourage drink driving and mobility, to the detriment of society and the trade.
Does that mean you are opposed to the concept?
We are opposed to it, but we are not unhappy about the idea of local authorities seeking a court order to ensure that discos in its area should close earlier or at a specific hour because of circumstances that have arisen. That has been suggested in the report of the Liquor Licensing Commission and we do not have a problem with it.
It is all right if it applies to nightclubs but not to pubs.
We are concerned with the hours in the morning at which certain establishments close, depending on local conditions.
The question was asked as to whether we would advise our members not to sell alcopops. The answer is "Yes". We have so advised our members and prevented the entry to the trade in this country of a number of reprehensible forms of cocktails, such as vodka jellies, frozen rum and cokes and so on. We have worked very hard and have come under pressure in that regard.
Would the delegation have another go at it? Some of those concerned do not seem to be listening.
I am not aware of any alcopops being sold at present, except perhaps through supermarkets.
I suggest to Mr. O'Sullivan that the situation be examined again. I appreciate his assistance in that area.
I certainly support the Senator's view that those products should be banned. On the issue of trouble makers in north Wales, the same approach has been introduced in the south of Scotland and up as far as Glasgow. We would certainly support such a system but, unfortunately, our legislation does not allow us to introduce it. For example, we would not be allowed to post either the names or photographs of troublemakers in pubs.
That is a great pity.
It is a great pity. However, it is one of many areas where we are circumscribed by legislation on liquor licensing, equal status and other matters. On the question of screening bar staff, once a person becomes an employee and is allowed to run a bar on his or her own, that person becomes, effectively, the licensee and, for example, has substantial freedom in terms of ability to cheat the employer or to do the wrong thing and thereby get the employer into trouble. If there is a problem, it is the licensee who is in trouble. Accordingly, the onus is very much on the licensee to ensure his bar staff, in so far as he can, is responsible. That is a difficult issue.
As to whether we would seek the right to breathalyse, the answer is "No", we certainly would not, nor would the Garda allow us to have that right. There are various breathalyser-type devices on the market but, for various reasons, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland has advised its members against using them because we cannot depend on the legitimacy or effectiveness of that equipment. Even the gardaí have been challenged on many occasions in relation to the equipment they have used. We could not put our members in that position. Having regard to our litigious society, our members would find themselves in court on a daily basis on the grounds that, although they had assured customers they were okay, the customers were caught down the road with too much alcohol in their system.
In response to the comments of Senator Ross, I do not consider the situation unreal. Our two organisations have engaged for many years in a recognition that it is not in our interest to sell too much alcohol to people or to have people killed on the roads or falling down as they leave a licensed premises. We recognise that we have a responsibility and an obligation to exercise that responsibility. We appreciate that if we are successful in all the matters discussed here today and for many years previously, it may indeed lead to less consumption of alcohol. That is a price we have been prepared to pay and we are not about to change in that regard. Both organisations are trade associations. Our purpose is to promote and protect the interests of our members. However, being a trade association does not isolate us from the rest of society. The vast majority of the people represented by the two organisations are parents, as was pointed out earlier in this meeting. I have had the privilege of being the parent of five children, all of whom went to pubs and discos but none of whom came home drunk at 13 years of age. That was my responsibility, not that of the publicans. As members of a trade association and as parents, we accept that responsibility.
In terms of the requirements to become a licensee, the court has to be satisfied that the licensee is a fit and proper person to hold a licence. As I said earlier, people who engage in practices which are not conducive to the good of society can have their licences opposed by the gardaí or by society.
On the issue of political influence, I always find it amusing to be told we are probably the strongest political lobby group in the country. If we were such a strong and effective political lobby group - I am conscious that my members want me to be a strong political lobbyist - we would not be circumscribed by legislation in the manner which has prevailed for some years past. The dreadful trauma visited on us by the Equal Status Act since 2000 is one example. We foresaw all of the difficulties and we warned the Oireachtas. I am not hitting at any particular political party in this context because two separate Governments were involved in drafting that legislation. Having forecast precisely what would happen, it is of no joy to us to point out now that we were right. I am glad the Liquor Licensing Commission has recognised that we were right and has now put forward proposals to change that legislation.
In response to the direct question which was asked, we do not make contributions to political parties.
Is that also the case with the LVA?
Mr. Towey
I have been involved in the council of the LVA for about 14 years. In terms of political lobbying, we do not have any secret access to Government or any special influence. If we have a point to make, we use normal, legitimate means, including meetings and presentations such as this meeting.
There is, however, a Member of the Seanad who is privileged in terms of access to Ministers.
Mr. Towey
It is not a matter of privilege. Senator Bohan goes through the normal democratic process of election. May I also point out, as a voter in the Trinity College electorate, both Senator Henry and Senator Ross represent my interests as a Trinity graduate. I do not believe I have ever approached either Senator——
Stop that.
Mr. Towey
I have never approached either of those Senators to seek their influence on issues relating to the licensed trade. We have always used normal, democratic means to get our points across, as is our right.
Yes, but you do use Senator Bohan's——
I am concerned that a Member of the Oireachtas has been referred to in his absence and that he does not have an opportunity to respond.
I do not want to mention him in particular, other than to make the point that the association has access, irrespective of who the Member may be. The Association has nominated a person - perhaps the two associations have done so - and therefore they have access which is not normal lobbying access. They constitute a strong lobby group.
We are getting away from the subject of discussion at this meeting. If the Senator wishes to have that discourse, it is a matter for another day. The question has been posed as to whether either organisation makes political donations.
No.
Mr. Towey
To my knowledge, the answer is no.
Senator Henry referred to the issue of young women being targeted. Such problems are of concern to us. We totally abhor promotions designed to encourage people to binge-drink, such as offering three vodkas for the price of one. We are totally opposed to those promotions and will try to take measures to ensure they do not take place among our members.
If we reported such promotions to the associations, would action be taken?
Mr. Towey
Absolutely, we would take measures.
What is the associations' position in relation to the type of drink I described as being served - three measures of vodka and a can of coke?
Mr. Towey
I am not aware of that taking place. If we are made aware of it we will certainly make representations with a view to having such promotions discontinued.
I can assure the delegation it happens. I have witnessed it personally.
Mr. Towey
I am not saying it does not happen.
Both organisations absolutely abhor that type of practice, which has nothing to offer society, the industry or the trade. I fully support Mr. Towey's comments in that regard. If such places are identified, we would certainly use all our influence to stop them. We agree that should be a cause for objection to renewal of licences. That is not a responsible way to treat alcohol.
I take it the associations regard reportage of such issues to them as vital in terms of the conduct of members.
Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Towey
Could I make a general statement about underage drinking and young people drinking? It is important that the trade works with Government agencies to sort out the problem. Before that happens one has to understand the culture that prevails today and that we are trying to grapple with when we are running our businesses. Young people today are behaving very differently from the way they did 20 years ago. They do not do most of their drinking in the pub, but at home before they go out. They are mixing alcohol with drugs. I heard of an incident recently where a person said a customer in his pub, whom he knew, looked perfectly sober one minute but walked out of the toilets five or ten minutes later looking starry-eyed.
Young people drank 20 and 30 years ago, and in my day as a student at times people drank too much but they did not go out and feel they had to kick somebody's head in, or engage in violent behaviour. Something has changed in the culture and it is not necessarily the drinks or the publicans. We believe drugs are a big part of that mix.
Alcohol is the biggest drug.
Mr. Hanley
A big problem in our society today, which I think the Oireachtas could tackle, is drinking on the streets and in parks. I come from Galway city and on a given Sunday when the weather is fine, as it has been for the past six weeks, there can be up to 1,000 people drinking cans and bottles of Buckfast around the Spanish Arch. These products are not being bought from any of the people the members around this table represent. We have no control over this type of behaviour. Somebody in authority should be fit to change it. If not, that is where 12 and 13 year olds will end up drinking.
Are you suggesting we close all off-licences?
Mr. Hanley
I am suggesting the Oireachtas could ban street drinking and park drinking in every corner and put the people back inside the premises where we would have to be responsible for the amount of alcohol they consume.
Some local authorities have enacted local regulations.
Mr. Hanley
Yes, but they are not being enforced.
That is the problem. It is enacted in Cork city but it is not being observed and that is the difficulty. There are other queries that——
Deputy Cowley wanted answers to a number of queries. High consumption of alcohol and abuse of alcohol is of course a worry for everybody in society. As I have already said, the people we represent for the most part have families. Something that has received a lot of attention in recent times is that 12 and 13 year olds are not buying drink in pubs but are getting drink at home from their elder siblings and in some cases with either the passive or active assistance of their parents. We must recognise the need to exercise responsibility in this area.
Can you expand on the phrase "passive or active assistance of their parents"?
Yes. We receive numerous calls from members of the federation who have problems with parents buying alcohol for their children in pubs and supplying it to them notwithstanding that the publican does not want them to be supplied. We get calls from people who say he or she is serving at a wedding and has a table of ten, including four ladies with four young children aged no more than ten or 12, who want the children to have wine. We tell the server that he or she cannot serve the children and that the group will have to be thrown out. That is not possible because this is happening at a wedding. Daily we face the difficulty of youngsters of 12, 13, and 14 being supplied with alcohol by their parents, elder siblings, the sister's boyfriend or the brother's girlfriend. This is happening in pubs throughout the country. For example, parents and their son may enter a premises and order a pint of lager, a gin and tonic and a Coca Cola. The gin and tonic is for the father, the Coca Cola is for the mother and the pint of lager is for the 16 year old son. It is bought by Daddy who is in his 40s. When that youngster is found to be consuming alcohol in the pub the only person who is challenged is the licensee and he faces a closure of seven or maybe 30 days.
The question was raised about enforcement and prosecutions in the west. Let me give you an example of prosecutions in the west. Three youngsters were found to be very drunk at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. with false ID cards on their person. They identified a pub where they may or may not have received alcohol earlier. Speaking from the Bench the judge congratulated them on coming forward and identifying the pub where they claimed they got alcohol. That is a problem that faces our members. When the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy John O'Donoghue, introduced the age cards in March or April 1999 there were forged age cards on sale in County Mayo within five days. They had been computer generated in the west. We presented to the Commission on Liquor Licensing a bag full of such cards that had been confiscated by members of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland in the Mayo area, in particular in Ballina and Castlebar.
To return to Deputy Cowley's question about the date rape drug, practically all pubs now have warning signs on the toilet doors, behind the bars and everywhere else. We have issued posters, eventually with Garda support, one of which reads "Fancy a pint? Over 18? Prove it". We have posters every year such as "Are you having a drink this Christmas? Who is driving you home?", with a photograph of car keys. The Deputy tells us to be responsible in our activities. We are doing that and we will continue to do it because we feel it is part of our responsibility as a trade. It is in our long-term interest to ensure our customers are alive and well and the intention of the licensed trade is to encourage not just youngsters but everybody who is driving not to drink. If a person drinks alcohol he or she should not drive a car. Our slogan last year was "Leave the drinking to the non-drivers". The year before it was "Leave the driving to the non-drinkers". We have to get the message across to our customers and we have invested a high proportion of our income in doing that. If we reduce abuse we have to reduce consumption and that is the price we have to pay.
The Vintners' Federation of Ireland lobbied against the reduction in the limit of the blood alcohol level for drink driving. Would it support a reduction to 50mg? I do not doubt the federation's sincerity and I know it is only doing its job, but it is proven that there is increased consumption of alcohol which, it is proven also, increases the number of problems. In countries in Europe where the blood alcohol limit has been reduced there has been a reduction in the number of problems. As a measure that does work, would the federation support a reduction in the blood alcohol level to 50mg or would it lobby against it as it did before?
The lobby we raised against the Road Traffic Act 1994 was because we wanted the penalties to fit the crime. We believed that the penalties at the time were draconian, that if a person was 1 mg over the limit he or she was classified as a criminal for evermore. The penalties did not relate to the crime that was committed and the Oireachtas believed us and subsequently amended the legislation. I do not believe reducing the blood alcohol level from 80mg to 50mg will have any impact because in some of the European countries that now have a 50mg limit there is the greatest concentration of road accidents. Portugal is one case in point and there are others. It is assumed that by reducing the blood alcohol level to 50mg we would solve all these problems but we will not.
Does the federation accept the international evidence and the medical evidence that the chance of a collision is six times greater at 80mg than it is at a lower level?
I am not sure the evidence points to that.
It does. That is a fact.
There is a perception that the evidence points to that.
It does. If I could prove that was true, would the federation support a reduction to 50mg in the blood alcohol level?
In an effort to keep our customers alive, of course we would.
I have one final question, Mr. O'Sullivan, arising from your report related to the Garda. Is there an implied criticism in terms of the rotas being worked by gardaí? Are you saying that at flashpoints gardaí are not available or not on the street at the times when they should be available, which is late at night when most young people come out of the pubs or nightclubs?
It would be a pity if anything we have said either in the presentation or in the response would be taken, implicitly or otherwise, as criticism of the gardaí. We believe a Garda presence is a huge disincentive to violent behaviour and if necessary we would seek to talk to the Garda Commissioner about the way in which his forces are deployed, but like everybody else he has limited resources. A Garda presence at known flashpoints would contribute significantly to a reduction in the violence that takes place at those flashpoints.
That would be a very strong recommendation.
It would be a strong recommendation.
I will have to conclude the meeting as another committee is due to meet here.
Would the groups agree to a ban on serving spirits to those under 23 years of age?
Currently, it is not legally possible to introduce such a system.
Legally.
The Oireachtas passed legislation less than two years ago which prohibits us from doing that.
This is a new Government and a new Oireachtas——
It has prevented us from saying to our——
Would the federation agree with it in principle?
Is the Senator talking about serving only spirits to people under 23 years of age?
No, that people under 23 years are served only beer instead of spirits. Would the federation agree with it?
It would be unworkable. It would put obstacles in our way and in the way of the gardaí and everybody else. It simply would be unworkable.
The Vintners' Federation of Ireland is not prepared to address the problem of serious alcohol abuse. The problem is not with beer but with spirits and young people. I believe it is a good suggestion. Spirits are the problem.
To suggest that because I am not prepared to support the Senator's contention that only those over 23 years of age should be served spirits means I am not inclined to tackle the problem is a huge quantum leap from where we are and where we are trying to go.
I believe we have to do this.
We do not believe we can enforce a ban on the sale of spirits to those under 23 years of age, either with present legislation or with any new legislation the Oireachtas could possibly put before us. It would be unenforceable.
I thank the Vintners' Federation for coming before us. Unfortunately the education and science committee is due to meet in this room and we have overstepped our time.
I thank you for coming before us and being so frank and available to us. As you know this is part of an ongoing process whereby we are meeting with the various people who have some interaction with the problems of teenage drinking, underage drinking and binge drinking. We will meet the breweries within the next month, with Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society, the Garda and the education authorities down the line. We thank you for your contributions to the debate. We are delighted to have your recommendations as to how you see the way forward. When we are putting together a report we will take into account some of those recommendations.
The joint committee adjourned at 11.25 a.m. until 10.15 a.m. on Thursday, 1 May 2003.