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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 11 Dec 2003

Vol. 1 No. 20

Medical Practitioners: Presentation.

I welcome Dr. John Hickey, chief executive of the Medical Protection Society, Mr. Martin Burns, the society's head of information and analysis, and Mr. Anthony Mason of Messrs. Lane, Clark & Peacock, consulting actuaries. I would ask Dr. Hickey to begin the presentation on issues relating to the insuring of medical practitioners. Following that there will be a question and answer session.

Members of the committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Dr. John Hickey

It is an honour and a pleasure to be giving evidence before the committee today. I am grateful for the invitation. By way of introduction, I have been with the MPS for 18 years in a variety of roles and assumed my present position about 18 months ago. Mr. Burns, on my right, has a statistical training and has been at MPS for about six years. Prior to that he worked in the insurance industry for a long time with the Prudential company. Mr. Mason, on my left is the managing partner of Lane, Clark & Peacock, who are independent consulting actuaries to MPS. He has advised the MPS for over 20 years on our business. He also advises the NHS in England, Wales and Scotland. There are three separate pooling funds for medical malpractice in those countries. In addition, he advises five organisations in Australia and has recently advised the Federal Minister of Health on professional indemnity issues there. Sparing his blushes he is at least one of the most experienced if not the most experienced actuary in the world in this particular field. I thought it would be useful to have him here today.

I will try to put all the comments I have to make this morning into context. When we talk about obstetric litigation - and I know that is an area which the committee is focusing on - and cerebral palsy claims we are dealing with most severely handicapped individuals. No matter which side of the fence one sits on one has to have enormous sympathy for them. We have won two cerebral palsy cases at trial recently and while I am pleased that our doctors have not been proved to be negligent, I still have enormous sympathy for the poor children involved. Everything I say should be put in that context because it pales into insignificance compared to the plight of these children.

I would like to say something about MPS. It is a discretionary mutual association founded in 1892. Actually it is an offshoot of the Medical Defence Union. We have over 200,000 members in more than 40 countries and currently there are over 6,000 registered doctors and dentists as members in Ireland. Although the organisation is obviously pro-doctor that does not mean it is anti-patient. One of MPS's aims is to prevent avoidable harm to patients through education and to pay fair compensation to patients where it is due. MPS offers a wide range of benefits to members but only about 20% of the files that we open are related to claims of negligence. The other 80% have nothing to do with claims of negligence. They can relate to representations before medical councils or on manslaughter charges, inquests and so on. We are a discretionary mutual organisation and I do not know of any member who has been left uncovered by MPS, once he or she has paid the appropriate subscription.

MPS earns about €200 million in subscription income each year. They are called subscriptions and not premiums because MPS is not an insurance company. Available assets to meet the liabilities it faces are worth around €625 million as at 31 December 2001. MPS has another asset which all organisations of this type have, namely, the right to make a call upon members. We can go back to members and say: "Terribly sorry, but things have gone wrong and we need extra money." They can be asked for an extra year's subscription. The value of that contingent asset is about €200 million in the current year.

While MPS operates in many countries, it tries to make each major area self-funding over a period of time. That means there should not be cross subsidies between the subscriptions doctors pay in one country and that which they pay in another. So far as the Irish membership is concerned, doctors here receive no subsidy from outside Ireland and do not subsidise doctors outside Ireland. No subsidy is going one way or the other. This has been achieved by the control of legal costs particularly as well as administration costs over the years, careful management of claims, prudent investment strategy and most importantly, with the help of the actuarial bodyguards, the setting of appropriate subscriptions.

Moving on to the professional indemnity scene, Ireland is a difficult place in which to provide professional indemnity for doctors. There are some problems here, in particular with obstetric litigation. There is a problem, but there is no crisis. I am on public record many times saying this. The obstetric problem is not a new one. Almost 15 years ago to the day, MPS held a seminar in London which looked at the problems of professional medical indemnity. Half of that seminar was devoted to the problems with obstetrics. We in the MPS said at the time that 3% of our members, those who were obstetricians, caused 29% of our claims. Obstetrics presents a worldwide problem that we recognised for many years, with Ireland no different to any other country. Obstetrics is a high risk, high cost speciality, a fact we have recognised for a long time.

How big is the problem? I know the committee has received statistics from other parties, including the MDU. We agree with many of the latter's figures, such as the incidence of cerebral palsy being two to three cases for every 1,000 live births per annum. I agree that there are probably 20 obstetric claims in Ireland each year, and it is probable that eight claims are settled annually.

I dispute the cost the MDU has placed on the obstetric cerebral palsy claims. The MDU said these eight claims can be settled for "up to €4 million". They can in fact be settled for in excess of €4 million. If one looks back at the MPS experience, the average settlement in the period 1990-2003 is about €2 million to €2.5 million per claim.

While the committee must look at the total cost to the State of obstetric litigation, one must look at the issue of professional indemnity on an individual organisation basis. Looking back at the MPS claims history in obstetric cases, on average only 40% of the total value of a claim relates to consultant obstetricians because liability is almost invariably shared with other doctors - NCHDs, other consultants and different organisations, midwives and so on.

The MDU quoted a claims inflation figure of 26.5%, which it has been quoting for years. The MPS paper presented to the committee contains a number of examples and analyses. I do not intend to go through the reasons we disagree with the MDU figure, but the MPS experience shows that between 1991 and 2003, obstetric claims were inflating by about 14% per annum. With a small number of claims in a very volatile situation, one has to be careful when looking at the figures. If one took the MDU figure of 26.5% per annum, then looked back at the maximum claim in 1991, which was about €1 million, and then inflated it at 26.5% per annum, one would expect an obstetric cerebral palsy claim to be settled today for €16 million, which is clearly not the case.

We have always said that obstetricians' subscriptions have been subsidised, not only in Ireland but elsewhere. Such subsidies are justified and are possible in Ireland where consultants' subscriptions have been supported by the Government through the reimbursement scheme. This support is justifiable because if one were to charge obstetricians the true risk related rate, one would drive them all out of practice.

Our attitude to subsidy shows the difference between a mutual non-profit organisation such as MPS and the commercial insurance market. If the MPS were a for-profit organisation, and I were chief executive of MPS plc, I would set subscriptions that would ensure that not a single obstetrician, neurosurgeon, orthopaedic, spinal or plastic surgeon would be a member. The reason is that it is very difficult to make a profit out of the risks involved in those areas. That is why medical professional indemnity is a special case that needs to be looked after by mutual organisations that understand the problems. Commercial insurers are not interested in covering the high risks.

The committee has heard about the so-called obstetrics special funds arrangements, which I shall refer to as SFAs rather than secret deals, if I may. There has been much discussion about them. The SFAs have allowed obstetricians to continue in practice in Ireland, particularly in private practice. Bearing in mind the importance of private obstetric practice to the delivery of health care in Ireland, their introduction was correct.

There is a chronology of events in the material supplied to the committee, and I will not go into the matter in detail. Suffice to say that during the period 1996-2000, the number of consultant obstetricians who joined the MPS was about 26. The number of consultant obstetricians in the MPS nearly doubled during that period. Most of them came from the MDU. We were already taking a lot of obstetricians from the MDU, and this was causing us concern. In February 2001 the MDU signalled that it was going to put up its subscription rates for consultant obstetricians to what we believed to be an entirely unjustifiable rate of €450,000. That made the MPS greatly concerned that all obstetricians would join the MPS, which we did not want. One might ask why that should be so, and the answer is that if an organisation is subsidising one class, such as consultant obstetricians, one must ensure that enough money is raised from the other lower risk consultants - not GPs - to fund those obstetric risks. If there is a sudden increase in the number of consultant obstetricians in membership, the subsidy burden on the other specialities clearly becomes unsustainable.

What could we have done? We could have put our obstetric rates up to what we believe is the unjustified MDU rate of €450,000 to stop all obstetricians joining the MPS. We could even have set the rates above the MDU rates in order to lose all our obstetricians. Alternatively we could have decided that the maximum rate for obstetricians should be about €250,000, charged €350,000, taken in all the obstetricians and made a profit of €100,000 per member. These options were clearly wrong, given the effects such rates would have on obstetric practice. We discussed our concerns with the Department of Health and Children and in March 2001 the Department wrote to the MPS and the MDU asking for suggestions on how to solve the problem. Both organisations proposed solutions and, as the committee is aware, the MPS solution was ultimately accepted. The MDU was given a chance to participate in those agreements.

The special fund agreements are prospective. They have no effect on the historic liabilities about which the committee has heard so much, nor any effect on existing MPS obstetric members under the first agreement. Both SFAs left the MPS and the MDU in exactly the same position. They removed the need to subsidise obstetricians going forward and left the historic liabilities untouched.

The committee has been told that there was a subsidy paid to the MPS. As chief executive of the MPS, I entirely refute that. A figure of €50 million has been bandied about. That is incorrect. No subsidy was paid. There is a Government subsidy for consultant obstetricians' subscriptions, which does not go to the MPS.

What about the confidential nature of the deal, its secret element? If I had my time again I would do exactly what I did but I would have pressed the Department of Health and Children to release this deal from the confidentiality aspects which it asked the MPS to observe, and would have discussed it in greater detail with the representative organisations of the profession. I regret I did not do that. I was wrong, and have apologised publicly for that at the IHCA EGM earlier this year. I am pleased to see that the IHCA has now said publicly that it agrees that the special funds are in the public interest. I believe that the chief executive of the Independent Health Care Association of Ireland has suggested a similar scheme for private hospitals in Ireland.

The MDU says that in effect it lost its obstetricians because of the SFAs and therefore lost the chance to fund its historic liabilities. As I said earlier, many obstetricians had transferred to the MPS before the issue arose. The MDU also put its rates up to €500,000. Even if the MPS had put its rates up to €250,000, which was the upper limit of the range which we thought was justifiable for consultants, category one consultants would have a saving of €25,000 if they transferred to the MPS, category two consultants would save €50,000, and a whole-time private practitioner would save an enormous €250,000. It is therefore inconceivable that if the MDU put its rates up to €500,000 it would have any obstetricians left, irrespective of the special funds agreement. The only reason the MDU lost its obstetricians was that it raised its rates up to that unjustifiable figure which, to my knowledge, incidentally is the highest in the world. The committee will have seen in the newspapers and heard about the MDU attitude to historic liabilities. It is probably not appropriate for me to comment on that because that is a matter between the MDU and its members. However, I would say there is a moral obligation upon the MDU and the MPS has distanced itself from it in this regard and written to the Minister for Health and Children to that effect.

I am coming to the end, so I would like to say something about the future. First, the MPS is committed to continue serving members in Ireland so long as it is wanted. Second, I will come back to my opening point: the tort system in this country serves neurologically impaired babies badly. Take two babies, one impaired because of an obstetrician's negligence and the other because of an infection. Both have exactly the same needs. One gets a multimillion euro award while the other gets nothing. In the greater scheme of things perhaps 90% of cerebral palsy babies get nothing other than minimal State benefits. That is why the MPS has advocated since the time of that seminar in the late 1980s a ringfenced no-fault scheme for neurologically impaired babies. That should also be extended to children who are impaired by infections such as meningitis.

In summary, there is a problem in obstetric litigation in this country. There is no crisis. Our statistics show that. More generally for the medical profession, the problem is no worse than elsewhere. We have seen a flattening in claim frequencies in this country over the last two years. Returning to obstetrics, the special fund arrangements have solved the subscription affordability issues for consultant obstetricians. Those agreements are not retrospective. They only affect obstetricians' cover, going forward. There is no subsidy to the MPS whatsoever. The MPS Council - its governing body - disagrees with the MDU's stated position that it might refuse to indemnify its members. Finally, the MPS believes the tort system should be scrapped, certainly for obstetric and cerebral palsy cases, and a no-fault scheme instituted so that there is not a great disparity of treatment for these poor unfortunate children.

Dr. Hickey has made a great pitch for the MPS. As a result of the ongoing dispute with the Medical Defence Union, the MPS and the Department of Health and Children, have MPS numbers in Ireland increased substantially? Are there any statistics to show the level of increase that has taken place over a number of years?

Dr. Hickey

The total number of MPS members in Ireland in the consultant sector used to be about 300 or 400 and is now above 1,200. As regards general practitioners, the Medisec scheme was introduced in 1992 or 1993. MPS GP numbers have stayed level. MPS numbers for non-consultant doctors over time have varied depended on whether it had the contract for the medical indemnity scheme. That was a type of enterprise liability scheme for junior doctors. There are about 1,500. That figure is pretty constant over time.

Over what period of time did that level of increase, from 300 to 1,200, take place?

Dr. Hickey

Since about the early 1990s.

Did that accelerate during the past year?

Dr. Hickey

No, the acceleration occurred between 1999 and 2001.

I would like to ask about the confidentiality agreement with the Department of Health and Children. What was the basis for this confidentiality agreement? Was it the case that the MPS was concluding a particular contract peculiar to itself as against making the MDU aware of what was happening?

Dr. Hickey

I may not be the best person to answer that. I presume the MDU was asked to provide its own solutions to its problem, so in a sense it was not cut out of it. As the Minister for Health and Children said in the Dáil, both organisations responded. The Department then asked us to keep the details confidential. Why it wanted that I do not know. We should have pressed the Department much harder. I regret that. That is something I would change now. I would not change anything else.

Is it the MPS view that the Department of Health and Children should make public the agreement?

Dr. Hickey

I wish it had. It would have caused fewer problems for the MPS.

At the outset I completely agree with Dr. Hickey about the desirability of some kind of ringfenced no-fault scheme for brain damaged children. There is enormous inequity in the way such children end up being treated. Speaking from experience, I had a brain damaged child and at this remove I can say I definitely had a case that could have been taken. However, I just did not have the fortitude to take it. Many parents are faced with making that decision. Do they have the fortitude to take a case that may go on for years or indeed do they have the fortitude to fight the State for services? Funding that is ringfenced would make life so much easier for parents in that situation.

I have a couple of questions. In his conclusion Dr. Hickey said he believed both organisations should meet their historic liabilities and that the MPS is able to do so through its strong financial position, the exercise of prudence, etc. Is he being somewhat disingenuous, implying that somehow the MDU was not prudent or does he accept that it might have been able to deal with the historic liabilities were it not for the fact that the State did a deal with the MPS? It effectively took its members and subscriptions away from the MDU. If the same thing had happened to the MPS, would it be able to meet those historic liabilities?

It is a moot point at this stage, but Dr. Hickey has stated that the deal was not a subsidy. It is not what would normally be termed a subsidy, but is it not that, in effect, where an indemnity is given which allows the MPS in turn to charge a much lower subscription rate to members? If the State was to provide an indemnity for historic claims, would the MPS be in a position to provide funds towards meeting those claims? Dr. Hickey says there is a problem but not a crisis. However, is it not a crisis for those who may have historic claims that may not be met? Is it not also a crisis for hospitals such as the Bon Secours and Mount Carmel? Are they going to close? Is that their future?

We will bank the series of questions.

We would all be much in favour of the no-fault compensation, given the escalating costs that have occurred in insurance generally in this country and the moves currently afoot through the PIAB to try and curtail them. Has Dr. Hickey any views on how a no-fault compensation as regards medicine could be implemented while at the same time recognising that certain patients need a degree of satisfaction if there is negligence on the part of the doctor? Could he say how claims against obstetricians in this country compare with similar claims either in the UK or in other European countries? The difficulty to which Deputy Olivia Mitchell alluded involves the historic liabilities of those former MDU members who have now joined the MPS. Has Dr. Hickey any suggestions on how those people's historic liabilities might be covered?

I am surprised to learn that the numbers of GPs in the MPS remain the same after the introduction of Medisec. The conclusion I draw is that most of those in Medisec were former MDU members.

I thank the MPS for its presentation. I have been a member of the MDU for decades and I am also a member of its Irish advisory committee, to which the MDU appoints people every couple of years. Many of the issues have been addressed by Deputy Olivia Mitchell and Deputy Devins. I am aware that the MPS has had cross-subsidisation by other consultants of the fees for obstetricians, and had far fewer obstetrician members than the MDU for a very long time. Could the MPS give us any idea how much it took in from obstetricians over the decades compared to what it paid out?

There is another issue which I raised in an Adjournment Debate a couple of years ago when this matter first became the subject of discussion. I am inclined to think that by means of this subsidy - I agree with Deputy Olivia Mitchell that one can only describe it as a subsidy - the Irish taxpayer will pay up for the obstetricians who were with the MPS, whereas we have no idea what will happen regarding the historic liabilities of those obstetricians who were members of the MDU. Deputy Devins has raised this matter, but what is to happen now that, as I understand it, all the MDU people have quite rightly transferred to the MPS? There was a report in the Irish Medical Times this week quoting Dr. Hickey as saying that the MPS would charge obstetricians in full time private practice a fee of €300,000 if a deal was not reached. This is a very serious issue for specialists in Mount Carmel Hospital and in the Bon Secours Hospital in Cork. If this is what the MPS intends to do, it is also a very serious matter for the Minister for Health and Children and for the Irish taxpayer.

I ask the committee's permission to ask the Vice-Chairman to take over as I have another appointment. I thank everybody very much. Dr. Hickey may now respond.

Dr. Hickey

Deputy Olivia Mitchell asked if the deals harmed the MDU. They did not. They should have had no effect on either organisation. The MDU had lost a substantial proportion of its consultant obstetricians to the MPS prior to those agreements. Over the period 1996-2000, 26 consultant obstetricians joined the MPS, which is a substantial number, most of which came from the MDU. The MDU had also said it would put up its rates to €500,000. As evidenced by the press cuttings which I have with me, the MPS said publicly that the true rate for consultant obstetricians was between €190,000 and €250,000. If the MPS had charged the true rate, the obstetricians would have transferred to the MPS anyway because of that great disparity between €500,000 and €250,000. The cause of the transfer was not the special deals but the MDU's rate increase to €500,000, which the MPS believed and still believes to be unjustified.

The special funds arrangement is not a subsidy. The MPS does not receive a subsidy. The deals are open. There is no subsidy going to anyone except to the individual obstetricians. The special deals allow obstetricians to continue to practise because if the MPS had increased its rates to stop the MDU members coming to us, we would have created a crisis in obstetrics. It must be remembered that we did not want the MDU members to come to the MPS, which is why the MPS approached the Department of Health and Children. The deals allowed consultant obstetricians, particularly those in private practice, to continue to practise.

The next question related to how the no-fault compensation system works and how it interplays with medical negligence. We have a lot of experience in this area in New Zealand, where the MPS has 10,000 members. A no-fault compensation system operates there. We find that the no-fault scheme deals with the financial aspects while what remains is the question of accountability. In a tort based system, such as operates in Ireland, the two issues get mixed up. People sometimes say they want to sue in order to make sure an event never happens again and that a particular doctor does not repeat what he has done. In New Zealand, the financial issue is looked after by the State but the MPS has seen a burgeoning of complaints against doctors in New Zealand. In my view, New Zealand has the most hostile medical/legal environment in the world for doctors practising there. Patients still want doctors to be held accountable, so systems are put in place to ensure that they are.

The next question related to how claims against obstetricians in Ireland compare with those in other countries. I will ask Mr. Anthony Mason to respond as he is better placed to answer that.

Mr. Anthony Mason

In terms of the size of claims in Ireland, they are high, but not as high as in the UK where currently the largest claims would involve as many British pounds sterling as euro in Ireland. Looking at what is being charged to Irish obstetricians, the claim size is high. One gets a higher number of claims in Ireland than elsewhere. The planned rates to be charged to obstetricians in Ireland are higher than the equivalent rates being charged in America, but that is primarily because there is a cap, a limit on what can be claimed in America. All insurance companies in America put a limit on what can be paid out for obstetric claims. The premiums being paid by doctors in America are round about $100,000 to $200,000.

The experience in Ireland is not good, but that has mainly to do with the number of claims brought rather than the absolute size of claims. Claims against doctors in the UK, Ireland and America are way ahead of those in Europe, although Europe is trying to catch up. Currently there are growing problems in France and litigation in Germany is increasing. Generally, however, the level of litigation against doctors in Europe is far lower than in Ireland, the UK and America.

Is Mr. Mason saying that the size of the awards is about the same in the UK and Ireland?

Mr. Mason

The awards in the UK are higher.

Is the number of claims in Ireland higher?

Mr. Mason

The number of claims in Ireland is probably higher than in the UK. In recent years there has been a levelling off. During the 1990s the frequency of claims against consultants in Ireland was extraordinarily high compared to the UK. A levelling off has taken place over the last five to ten years. That has been quite encouraging in Ireland, whereas in the UK there has been quite a steep increase.

Has the UK caught up with us?

Mr. Mason

On current trends, the UK probably will catch up.

Dr. Hickey

This matter relates to consultants and not to general practitioners. GPs in Ireland are pursued legally to a lesser degree in terms of frequency than they are in the UK.

The next question dealt with former MDU members and how a solution might be found. Another question related to the historic liabilities of the MDU and how they should be paid with regard to the people who transferred to the MPS.

There is a movement in and out of MPS membership all the time wherever we operate. It is not a large movement, but we have lots of former members. We have many more former members than existing members. Those members have a right to apply to us for an indemnity and can expect to be indemnified. As for the former MDU members now facing a horrific situation where they may not find themselves covered, the MDU should pay. It is that simple. The press releases accompanying the MDU's financial statements of a couple of years ago stated that they showed it in its strongest financial position for years. The MDU said publicly and in its annual reports that it has access to €300 million of reinsurance and capital, if needed. I cannot think of any need for that capital other than to pay the claims of former members. The MDU statements are in the MDU's publicly available accounts. That is the way to sort the problem and that is how the MDU should meet what is certainly a moral obligation.

I do not know what the position is but if the MDU cannot pay, then clearly we should look for an innovative solution. Over the past six months my colleagues and I have suggested to the consultants' association a number of solutions. In essence it comes down to whether it is a question for the MDU of "can't pay or won't pay". It must marry up the statements made in its accounts. If it has access to all the money it says it has access to, why does the MDU say it cannot pay?

From the various contacts I have had, it is my understanding that most of the people referred to transferred from the MDU, and not from the MPS.

What happens next, post enterprise, regarding liability for obstetrics and the quote of €300,000? We believe that is the appropriate rate. It is consistent with the figure we suggested in 2001, inflated by about 11% per annum. We have been in discussions with the IMO, the consultants' association and the Department of Health and Children to say that if the special funding arrangements are stopped, a crisis will arise. Currently there is no problem, but a crisis will emerge if the arrangements are stopped. We need to look at innovative solutions to that problem and we have put forward suggestions. The State might step in to limit claims above a certain amount, or some similar solution might be found.

I do not want to tread in a political area, but I know the Minister has recently written to the consultants to say he intends to impose enterprise liability on 1 January 2004 if no agreement is reached. With some trepidation I must say that there is a lot of detail to be worked out regarding the post enterprise liability arrangements to ensure that the private obstetricians in particular can stay in practice once enterprise liability is introduced. Arrangements must also be made to give some security to consultants in terms of how much they will have to pay for their residual indemnity. Extra time is needed to sort out those details. Given the importance of these matters, I would like to be involved in them, though my commitments next week are substantial. It would be enormously helpful and beneficial if the discussions on these matters were delayed.

I know that the MPS had cross-subsidisation of subscriptions of obstetricians over the years and I asked how much was paid out. Recognising that the liabilities are years behind, were there sufficient funds coming in?

Dr. Hickey

I will shortly defer to my colleague, but it is clear from what I have said about the financial position of the MPS in Ireland that we have collected enough money from consultants to pay, over time, for all the liabilities we expect to have to meet under the discretionary basis of cover. We are fully funded and have sufficient funds to meet those liabilities. I have not got the exact numbers to hand; my colleague, Martin Burns, may have them.

Mr. Martin Burns

I have not got them to hand but we can supply the figures to the committee later. If one isolated obstetrics as the highest rated speciality in a mutual pool, it would of course show losses on a stand alone basis. In a document we signed and in a press release of two years we noted that obstetricians accounted for 4% of our members, 10% of our subscriptions, a fifth of our claims by number and a third of our claims by costs. The figures will not have changed greatly since then.

Dr. Hickey

I will ask Mr. Mason to make a point on the subsidy question.

Mr. Mason

I will briefly clarify how the special fund arrangements work. The MPS collects money from the obstetricians and puts that money aside. That is purely to meet claims arising from incidents from March 2001. The MPS does not keep that money. It puts it aside to meet the new claims from March 2001. The MPS pays for all the obstetric claims before that date that have both been reported and may be reported in the future, but relating to incidents that occurred before the start of the special fund arrangements. The MPS receives no money towards its past liabilities, its known liabilities and those new claims coming through. The MPS acts simply as a piggy bank. It takes money from the obstetricians and puts it to one side to meet future claims that might be reported. It will be many years before money is paid out from these special fund arrangements. As for any money being put in by the Government, it will be many years down the line before any money comes through. The MPS gets no benefit of any kind from these special fund arrangements.

I agree, but it looks as though the MPS obstetricians are going to get payment from the Irish taxpayer even if it comes down the line. It is recognised that the amount received by the MPS from obstetricians is very unlikely to be enough to cover the claims. It is hard to know what will happen regarding claims against former MDU members.

Dr. Hickey

With respect, Senator, the MDU has got money from the Irish taxpayer over the last 20, 30 or 40 years, for however long the reimbursement arrangements have existed.

So did the MPS.

Dr. Hickey

Yes, and we have said we will pay our historic liabilities when they fall due under the discretionary nature of the protection we provide. It is only the MDU which says it will not pay.

The MPS still has subscriptions from obstetricians.

Dr. Hickey

No, not at all. As I said at the outset, we have sufficient funds in Ireland to meet our actuarially computed liabilities. We have reached that position through the prudent setting of subscriptions, managing our investments and controlling our costs.

Are you saying that if MPS subscriptions stopped today, the MPS could go on meeting its liabilities indefinitely?

Dr. Hickey

I will ask our actuary to answer that.

I see him nodding. Why did I doubt this?

Mr. Mason

This is the crux, the key point. If the MPS lost every single member in Ireland tomorrow, it should still be able to meet all its liabilities. Effectively, the MPS no longer has any obstetric members in Ireland. It no longer has any income from obstetric members because all the money they contribute goes to the special fund arrangements. The Department of Health and Children can call on that money at any time. As far as claims are concerned, the MPS no longer has obstetric members. If every other MPS member in Ireland were to leave, the society would still be able to meet its liabilities.

What does the MPS see as the future for the private hospitals I mentioned?

Dr. Hickey

We have been in discussions with the consultants' association, the IMO and the Department of Health and Children. Support is needed for private obstetrics in Ireland. Our preferred option is to leave the special fund arrangements in place. That would be the simplest way. It may be that the Department wishes to stop those arrangements. We have said to the Department that if it stops the arrangements, a similar scheme must be put in place to ensure that consultant obstetricians can continue in private practice in this country. We have put forward some ideas on that in terms of claim limits being imposed and the State then stepping in.

I thank the MPS for its very good presentation. I am a member of Medisec. I was a member of another organisation, not the MPS, and many of us left because we felt we were perhaps subsidising consultants. Can Dr. Hickey confirm that this was the case? I noted that he said the MPS tried to ensure there was no cross-subsidisation.

Another matter was raised by my colleagues here today and by the MPS representatives. I have been hearing for years about the need for a no-fault system. I know such systems exist in other countries. I cannot understand and perhaps Dr. Hickey could enlighten me why it has not happened since it is so logical and important. Not to pre-empt his answer, I would suggest that this is a wonderful area for lawyers who make so much money out of it. It is so unfair. One baby, as he describes, comes into a multimillion euro settlement because negligence can be proven whereas the one that is unable to prove fault is just left on the scrapheap, regardless of how deserving the case is. God forgive me for saying it, but that is what it amounts to. Such children do not get the support.

Dr. Hickey may know about the support disability gets in Ireland compared to what it should get. It is logical to have a ringfenced fund particularly a no-fault fund. I know that puts the onus on doctors to ensure they too are accountable and do not get off the hook. People may say a no-fault fund would allow doctors to get off the hook. Doctors do not want that either. They want to be upfront about all these matters. My perception is that doctors have been given that explanation as the reason a no-fault system is not in place. People have blamed doctors in some way for the system but can the MPS confirm that this is a matter for Government?

This committee should recommend that a no-fault system is put in place. There are strong vested interests. A board should be set up to review the cases of such unfortunate children who come to grief. No matter where the fault lies, they are the ones who ultimately suffer. What type of society do we have when people have to go through a gladiatorial contest over who can produce the best legal team? If one can afford to pay for the best legal team - and it will cost an arm and a leg - there is a possibility of winning, but it is still a lottery. I would like Dr. Hickey's opinion on that.

I am a member of the MDU. Did I understand from Dr. Hickey's contribution that both the MDU and the MPS are well able to meet their historic liabilities in the obstetrical field from his perusal of the accounts?

Dr. Hickey

Yes, the MPS is.

The MPS is a worldwide operation, working in many countries and across many cultures. Its litigation experience varies from country to country. Did I understand Dr. Hickey to say that in Europe litigation is not as large a part of MPS business as it is in English speaking countries? Will he say why this is?

Dr. Hickey

Deputy Cowley asked if GP subscriptions were subsidised. They probably were in the early 1990s. As the MPS gets better over time actuarial techniques are improved and there is a better understanding of the business. I do not think GPs in Ireland have been subsidising consultants since the early 1990s. If one looks at the MPS rates there have been no increases since 1996. I know Medisec's rates have gone up. That is partly to do with claims expense and partly to do with the cost of reinsurance. Since September 11 in particular reinsurance costs have gone up dramatically and that may be one of the reasons. GPs have not been subsidising consultants in this country, in MPS at least for a very long time.

I agree with virtually everything the Deputy said as to why a no-fault scheme has not been introduced. The answer is probably expense for a general no-fault scheme; it is expensive. It was introduced in New Zealand on April Fool's Day 1974 but they have had to change it two or three times since. Nobody in New Zealand would go back to the old system, but it has a cost attached. I suspect that is the reason governments are somewhat reluctant to introduce it as a general scheme. I do not know why one has not been introduced for neurological neonatal impairment. I know the Department of Health and Children has set up a working party to look at that, as the Deputy is probably aware. The MPS will provide any information it can because it supports the introduction of a no-fault scheme. I am not sure if that answers the Deputy's question but it is the best I can do.

I will come back in a moment to the MPS and MDU historic liabilities question. Worldwide the litigation does vary dramatically from country to country. The frequency of claims in Hong Kong, for example, is equivalent to 20% of the UK and yet the awards are probably now higher. One gets dramatically disparate differences between the countries. Much of that is due to culture or how active the legal profession is, whether doctors are still on a pedestal as in the past and so on. In Europe it differs. MPS does not provide membership for doctors or dentists in Europe, apart from Ireland and the UK. From our contacts on the continent I know it is different. The VVAA, the major insurer of Dutch doctors, looks at me in horror when I say the MPS has paid out £4.2 million in the UK for a brain damage settlement. The sort of figures it talks about would be £1 million in an equivalent case. I believe much of that is due to the fact that the State benefits systems are that much better. Perhaps Mr. Mason can expand on that.

Mr. Mason

There are a number of reasons. The culture to look for compensation is different in Europe. It is increasing, but it is a long way behind the English speaking countries. As Dr. Hickey said, the State, in many European countries, provides much better care for those who have some form of injury and therefore the patients are less likely to try to pursue compensation.

Dr. Hickey

Deputy Fitzpatrick asked about the MDU and MPS abilities to meet their historic liabilities. As far as MPS is concerned the answer is yes. It is probably inappropriate for me to comment on the MDU's position.

Dr. Hickey indicated earlier that from his viewing of the MDU figures there was enough money there to meet whatever liabilities might arise.

Dr. Hickey

It is not my review of the figures. They are the published figures.

I take the point.

Dr. Hickey

It has a balance sheet and it is open to everybody. As to whether the MDU is threatening not to pay an historic claim it is either a question of "can't pay or won't pay". If it is "can't pay" one must look at some of the statements in its annual report. It talks about access to £300 million worth of reinsurance and capital, if required. If it is a case of "won't pay", that is an issue between the MDU and its members.

I am interested in Dr. Hickey's comments as regards the special fund. Have there been any drawings on the money that has been put into the fund on the MPS's behalf to date? Where there are not sufficient drawings to diminish it completely so that the State has to put in some money, what will happen? Will that money eventually come back into the MPS kitty? I would agree entirely that the MPS is effectively acting as an agent for this fund. Does it charge an administrative fee or what does it get out of it?

Dr. Hickey

The funds are ringfenced. Under no circumstances would those funds come into the MPS general fund. They are actually accounted for separately with MPS accounts. We provide statements on a quarterly basis to the Department of Health and Children. Mr. Martin Burns has given me the figures. The payments made since inception on the two funds is next to nothing - €350. The account has €12.5 million in funds. We make a charge for managing the fund and also for paying the non-claims liabilities that members make upon us, for example, inquests, disciplinary problems which cost a great deal of money, etc. We just reserved a particular one at more than €1 million, not for the obstetricians, but for another case. Let me stress again that these funds are ringfenced - MPS does not benefit in any way from them - to allow obstetricians in private practice particularly to continue to practise.

Do you think that as the State takes a greater role as insurer, it will interfere with clinical licence and patient care? Is the increased cost of a no-fault system due to the fact that more people will receive payments, as prior to this only those who won the gladiatorial contest in the courtroom would be compensated? Will legal fees be reduced in the no-fault system?

Dr. Hickey

In a no-fault system, more people make claims. In a sense the system went wrong in New Zealand because the system originally was too broad - a claim could be made on Monday if you knocked your teeth out playing rugby on the previous Saturday. There are certainly savings, I think, to be made on legal fees, however, there is a massive bureaucracy running them. The system needs to be run efficiently, but it sometimes is not. As a result in the medical/legal environment the lawyers earn their money by either helping patients to attack doctors in the other systems in which they are held accountable and of course we charge New Zealand doctors approximately NZ$1,100, which is approximately €400 to €500 per annum for the legal fees we incur in defending them against that.

On the question of clinical autonomy, I led - Mr. Anthony Mason was on the team - the joint medical protection society Willis Carroon team which set up the Clinical Negligence Scheme for Trusts in the UK in 1994. We did a series of seminars around the country on behalf of the Department of Health trying to get NHS trusts into the scheme and trying to assuage consultants' concerns. The consultants expressed a great deal of concern not only about that scheme but also the enterprise liability type of a scheme when it was introduced in the UK in 1990. On balance, there has not been a restriction of clinical autonomy. I think another development in the medical scene is much more important - the accountability of the medical profession, particularly arising from the Bristol heart case in 1998. I had been saying to the profession for a number of years that if the profession wishes to maintain self-regulation, not only must the profession do it, but be seen to be doing it. Patients are not interested in the size of the brass plate but whether the doctor is competent. I do not think the profession was addressing that issue and, as a result of the Bristol heart case, a whirlwind of accountability schemes have been developed for doctors. In a sense those issues might restrict clinical autonomy more than the indemnity schemes. Whether that is right or not is a different question.

Vice-Chairman

Let me thank you for meeting the committee. We will certainly take account of your observations when formulating policy.

Before I adjourn, I wish to advise members that the committee will meet on Wednesday, rather than Tuesday at 10 a.m. to discuss issues relating to alcohol.

The joint committee adjourned at 11 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 December 2003.
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