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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 2005

Travers Report: Presentation.

I welcome the Tánaiste and her officials for a discussion of the Report on Certain Issues of Management and Administration at the Department of Health and Children associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters. Members may ask questions after the presentation. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to others. I stress in the strongest possible terms that parliamentary privilege only extends to discussions on the floor of both Houses of the Oireachtas and committee proceedings.

I propose that an interim report of the joint committee be laid before both Houses, in accordance with Standing Orders, with the following foreword inserted:

At its meeting on 9 March 2005, the Joint Committee on Health and Children met to discuss a Report on "Certain Issues of Management and Administration at the Department of Health and Children associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters".

The report was presented to the Committee by Ms Mary Harney, TD, Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children. This was subsequent to a Notice of Motion passed by Dáil Éireann on 9 March 2005 that the joint committee, or a sub-Committee thereof, do consider, including in public session, the Report on Certain Issues of Management and Administration at the Department of Health and Children associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters and to report back to Dáil Éireann within three months concerning the legislative and administrative implications of the report, its findings and conclusions.

The text of the Report on "Certain Issues of Management and Administration at the Department of Health and Children associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters" is contained in Appendix 2 of an Interim Report which the Committee agreed to publish on 9 March 2005.

The Interim Report was then laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas on 9 March 2005.

How long will this session last?

We are just beginning. I do not know for how long the Tánaiste will speak but we want to ensure maximum openness and transparency. We will invite a speaker from each party to respond to the Tánaiste. Is the text of the foreword agreed? Agreed. This is purely to advance the process.

Will we receive a copy of the text the Tánaiste will now read?

I am not going to use a text; I am going to give a brief summary of the report. I will issue a statement subsequent to the publication of the report, which I can make available.

While I appreciate that the Tánaiste has her own style of doing things, I find that unsatisfactory. This is a very important matter and it is one thing to say something at this committee and then issue something else following the meeting which inevitably will not reflect exactly what was said here. Normal practice when a Minister for Health and Children comes here to make such an important statement, whether it is on the Estimates or anything else, is that there is a written text which we will all have in front of us. It is an aide-mémoire for us but also a proper record. I am not satisfied we are doing things this way.

To get us all started on the right footing and make maximum use of this meeting, I understand there will be a verbatim account of everything said in this room.

I know that but they are not published for a long time.

Is there a reference to scripts in Standing Orders?

No but clearly what is most important is the fact that the Tánaiste is here straight from the Dáil. That is the issue.

It would be remarkable if the Tánaiste was not here.

It would be remarkable if Deputy McManus accepted the fact that we are going to try to advance this issue.

Away we go.

I am more than pleased to welcome the Tánaiste. Clearly, everything said here will be recorded in a verbatim account.

Is the Chairman placing a time limit on the meeting?

I am not; I am trying to say this is not a matter of being heavy-handed but of dealing with a matter that is of interest to all members. The Tánaiste is here to deal with it. She will outline her position and we will then invite comment. I doubt very much if members had time to go through the report in the last half hour to give a detailed response. I hope to suggest that we come back another day. Can we proceed with the first stage of the debate?

We are prepared to stay until we get the thing done.

Is that right? Good man.

I will invite the Tánaiste to speak to be followed by the spokespersons from each of the parties. Clearly, we are not here to stifle debate.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to address the joint committee on the Travers report. As it can see, the report, including appendices, runs to over 160 pages. The report itself is 94 pages long. Therefore, there is an onus on all of us to read and consider it carefully.

I pay tribute to John Travers for carrying out the important task of examining why it was the case that for 28 years charges were imposed on residents in long-stay public institutions without any legal basis. A summary of his findings and recommendations is contained on pages 87 to 94 of the report. I do not propose to go through them because everyone can read them for himself or herself. I propose to give a brief history of this matter as I see it.

In 1954 the Institutional Assistance Regulations were introduced, as indicated on page 140 of the report. They provided that people in long-term care could be charged for shelter and maintenance in the county home or similar institution. They provided that those with full eligibility, that is, people with medical cards, and those with limited eligibility could be charged for shelter and maintenance.

In 1970 a new Health Act was introduced in which for the first time the concept of full and limited eligibility was introduced. Effectively, it stated those with full eligibility could not be charged for what were called in-patient services which were defined in section 51 as institutional services provided for persons while maintained in a hospital, convalescent home and so on.

A resident in Crooksling Hospital, Maud McInerney, a ward of court, who was being charged for maintenance, took proceedings. As she had a medical card, she had full eligibility. The High Court held that because she was receiving some medical care, she could not be charged for shelter and maintenance under the 1970 Act. This decision was upheld by the Supreme Court in 1976. The Department introduced regulations, known as the in-patient regulations, to give effect to that decision. They are referred to on pages 140 and 141 of the report. Those regulations stated that one could charge people who are fully eligible. In addition to the regulations, the Department issued a circular which effectively told the health boards they could remove people from the status of full eligibility if they took away the medical cards because these people were now in institutional care and therefore did not need a medical card.

That remained the position for some considerable time, until recently. At the time those regulations were being introduced on foot of the Supreme Court case the Department's legal advisers advised against doing this. In 1978 the Eastern Health Board sought an opinion from Ronan Keane and Thomas McCann, to which there is reference on page 17 of the report.

The two Counsel advised the Eastern Health Board against attempting to defend in Court their approach to charges for in-patient services under the 1976 Regulations and Circular 7/76 on the grounds of likely failure and cost. They expressed the view that:

(i) the difficulties being experienced in levying charges on persons for long-stay care in health board institutions "arises from the failure of the legislature to deal with the question of charges for maintenance ... in a clear and unambiguous fashion when the 1970 legislation was being passed" and

(ii) the difficulties in such cases "can only be resolved by amending legislation".

I apologise for interrupting the Minister but there is a vote in the Dáil and we must adjourn for approximately 20 minutes. We will resume at 12.55 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 12.42 p.m. and resumed at 12.58 p.m.

I ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to resume.

The 1954 institutional regulations were introduced on foot of the Health Act 1953 which provided for a charge for shelter and maintenance in a county home or similar institution. This did not distinguish between people who had full eligibility, those who had medical cards and those who did not. The Health Act 1970 introduced for the first time the notion, legally, of full and limited eligibility. Full eligibility applied to those with a medical card, limited eligibility applied to others. Ms Maud McInerney, a patient in a home at Crooksling and a ward of court, was charged for shelter and maintenance there. A case was taken on her behalf to the High Court which found that she was entitled to full eligibility under the 1970 Act. The case was taken to the High Court, which found that under the 1970 Act she was a person with full eligibility. She was receiving some medical treatment, so that this was not simply a place of shelter and maintenance, but one with nursing and medical staff. She therefore qualified as someone who should not be charged. That was upheld in a Supreme Court decision. On foot of that decision the Department introduced regulations basically saying that one can only charge those with limited eligibility, but at the same time a circular was issued advising health boards of a way of taking away eligibility by removing the medical card. At the time, the legal adviser to the Department felt that was not legally sound.

In 1978 the Eastern Health Board got an opinion from Ronan Keane SC and Thomas McCann SC. I have referred to that. They made it clear that one cannot change primary legislation by means of a regulation and that the Oireachtas had failed to introduce legislation to provide for these charges. On foot of the advice, the health board wrote to the Department of Health in July 1998 enclosing copies of the advice and so on. In its letter the board pointed to the negative financial implications of the situation arising from challenges being made against the board. It stated that while the legislation remained ambiguous, any assessment of charges against long-stay patients would remain open to challenge with inevitable loss of income. The board strongly advocated that "consideration be given to introducing amending legislation and at ending the present confused and ambiguous situation".

I will not go through all the advice. Mr. Travers draws attention to the fact that the advice both internally and externally was to the effect that there was no legal basis for doing what was being done. He says in the report that he found no substantial legal advice to the contrary. On the advice of the Department of Health, the cases taken by those who legally challenged the position on the long-stay charges throughout the years were not defended by the health boards.

On 5 February 1987 the then Minister was a caretaker Minister, John Boland. Labour had withdrawn from Government and John Boland was assigned the Department of Health. He took a memorandum to Government to provide for the introduction of new charges for in-patients and out-patients on foot of the budget. New health charters were being introduced and he used the occasion to bring in a provision regarding the long-stay charges. That Government left office and a new Government came into office in March.

On 27 March, the new Minister took the memorandum to Government. The Government decided to introduce the charges on foot of the budget and with regard to the long-stay charges the decision of the Government was to proceed "as was now relevant". All I can say is that it did not proceed and I do not know what "as was now relevant" means. The Travers reports refers to the "pinks". These are notes kept by the Secretary to the Government. They do not make up part of the formal decision of the Government but the Secretary takes notes of follow-up matter, or whatever. The "pinks" taken say that the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Health and the Taoiseach of the day were to meet regarding this matter.

That legislation came to the Dáil on 1 April, which was just a couple of days later. One must remember that these were dire economic times and clearly the Government wanted to introduce the new charges as quickly as possible. According to the Travers report, that is the only time the Cabinet ever considered the matter.

In 1994, in the health strategy published by the then Minister, the issue of long-stay charges is again referred to as one that needs to be legislated for, and legislation was promised. In 1989 the Commission on Health Funding referred to the legal issues involved. In a related issue in 2001, though not the same issue, the Ombudsman referred to the matter with regard to subventions in private institutions.

John Travers deals with the 2001 Act, when eligibility was extended to everyone aged 70 or over. Whatever confusion had arisen up to then, it was now clear that everyone of 70 or over, by virtue of their age, qualified as being fully eligible. Mr. Travers says the problem did not start with the Act or derive from it but again it was brought to the surface and should have forced a resolution.

The South-Eastern Health Board, having got advice from senior counsel in October 2002, regarding the eligibility issue on foot of the extension to those over 70, brought that to the attention of the Department in March 2003. The board tried to set up a meeting with the Department. That did not happen until the famous December meeting of which everyone is aware, when the matter was discussed. At that meeting it was agreed that legal advice would be sought. Very promptly after that meeting, on 27 January, officials in the Department prepared a file and a letter that was given to the Secretary General to be issued to the Attorney General in order to seek advice. That advice was not sought and there is confusion as to why it was not sought. Later in March 2004 a meeting was held between the management of the Department of Health and Children and the chief executive officers. The minutes refer to the fact that legal advice was being sought, which was not the case. In October 2004 another meeting of the CEOs of the health boards and the management of the Department referred to the fact that legal options were now being explored.

That is the basic summary. In October of this year, Deputy Kenny raised the matter on the Order of Business in the Dáil. At the time I asked for advice to be sought from the Attorney General. He gave the advice and told us we were acting ultra vires and must stop forthwith as we had no legal basis for what was being done. I sought a memorandum from the Department regarding the issue so that we could bring proposals to Government to correct the legal situation and to protect a principle most people supported.

There is no doubt that this principle had broad support. All the parties in office here for the past 50 years levelled these charges so there is no difficulty with the principle. Most fair-minded people believe that in return for shelter and accommodation one should make a contribution if one can afford to do so. People in the community and their own homes do that. The issue here was not one of principle but rather of giving legislative protection to a principle which was widely supported.

At the time, I asked the Secretary General of the Department to prepare a report for me on the matter and that report was brought to the Government. Regarding that matter, and speeches I made in the Dáil during the Second Stage debate — this is a matter to which John Travers draws attention — I had always maintained in December and November that this was all done in good faith, that it was legally defensible. As we know, that is not so. I became aware of that when some matters were discovered with regard to the Supreme Court case and in preparation for this report. Accordingly, the discussion at Government level and the subsequent Government decision was based on inaccurate and incomplete information. I very much regret that. I have already used the opportunity to correct, in the Dáil, the statement I made that it was done in good faith, because that is what I understood to be the case and that is what I was told. I will make further corrections tomorrow with regard to the information I put on the Dáil record which I published in December before I established the Travers inquiry.

We obviously have to learn serious lessons from all of this. It has serious implications for the Department which I am very proud to lead. In my short experience in the Department I have met some of the most professional, committed, hardworking civil servants, and I have been in the Dáil and Seanad since 1977. I have had a great deal of engagement with civil servants across the public administration over all those years. They are people who would have worked very long hours, for example in preparing the Health Service Executive legislation. Very long hours were worked on that matter by a terrific group of people who are totally committed to serving this State.

Some 300,000 people, or 315,818 if the Health Service Executive figure is verified, were wrongly charged. That should not have happened. We live by the law and must obey it. We have to put things on a sound legal footing. In December I asked the Assistant Secretary, Mr. Dermot Smith, who is here with me today, to do an audit across the Department of other areas where we levy charges on foot of regulations to ensure that this is being done on a sound legal basis.

Mr. Travers makes many recommendations regarding the Department, how it operates and how Ministers interact with civil servants. It is the job of the management team of the Department to manage the Department. I do not attend management meetings nor did I do so in the Department where I last was Minister. My role is a policy role rather than a management one. Mr. Travers makes the point that Ministers should not attend Department management meetings but rather attend policy meetings with the management group. I have always pursued that policy and will continue to do so.

Mr. Travers makes many other suggestions and I want to work with the officials to implement the necessary reforms. There is a new role for the Department in the context of the establishment of the Health Service Executive and a new unified system for the delivery of health services. It is a role encompassing policy, standards and legislation. The Department needs more resources to assist it with that new role, and I am determined to work with my officials to deliver that new mandate and lead the wonderful officials in the Department to implement the recommendations of this report so that something like this cannot and does not happen again.

The lessons to be learnt from this apply not only to the Department of Health and Children. They could be applied right across the public service. Mr. Travers's terms of reference were to examine the Department of Health and Children. He was not asked to consider how the matter operated at health board level. However, the health boards had the legal responsibility. I will be giving a copy of the report to the chairman of the Health Service Executive and asking him to note carefully its conclusions to ensure, in its legal responsibility, that it proceeds only on a sound basis.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity presented this morning. I acknowledge the interest of members in this report. I would like them to be conscious of the fact that the Department of Health and Children has responsibility for approximately a quarter of the State's current budget — €12 billion this year. It deals with issues of life and death. Sometimes in that scenario, when people are extremely busy and under awful pressure, what is important is left aside in favour of the urgent. If there is any lesson that we all must learn from this report, it is that, notwithstanding the urgent things that must be done daily, the important things must be dealt with too. We cannot leave matters in the lap of the gods.

I will invite the speakers of the main Opposition parties to ask questions, starting with Deputy Twomey, followed by Deputies McManus, Gormley and Devins.

I am sorry to say that the issue of this report and the manner in which it has come before us this morning have a certain element of farce to them. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for us to ask clear questions, since we have had no opportunity to go through the report in any detail. Therefore, the questions that we ask and the issues that we point out this morning will, to some degree, be a little disjointed, and I hope that the Tánaiste can bear with us. We simply did not get the chance to read this report properly. It is very critical of the Department of Health and Children. It is also critical, though not as much, of the Ministers involved in the Department. There are still several questions to ask on the issues raised in the report.

What exactly is the role of a Minister in the Department of Health and Children, and what are the responsibilities of a Minister in his or her Department? We must examine this both in the past and in the future. We must also consider the way in which the Minister herself and her predecessor, Deputy Martin, dealt with the issue. The sequence of events since the Minister sent her letter to the Attorney General and since Deputy Martin joined the Department of Health and Children stand in complete contrast to each other and must also be explored.

There is also the question of the exact role of the Secretary General. It is being pointed out here that the Secretary General is taking most of the blame for what happened regarding the illegal charges. If I have a delegation coming to find out something about the health services, is it the Secretary General whom I should meet or the Minister for Health and Children? To some degree, I would have considered the latter person responsible for the Department. The Minister can talk all she likes about the managerial role, but ultimately someone must be in charge. That is how things should work; there must be someone taking ultimate responsibility for everyone.

The Minister may point out that she has a policy or legislative role. Regarding nursing home charges, the role is legislative, and it should therefore have been the Minister's ultimate responsibility rather than that of any official in that Department. That has not been clearly pointed out in any aspect of this report. The Minister herself made numerous references before Christmas to what she described as "systemic maladministration" throughout the Department of Health and Children. She has contradicted herself somewhat this morning by saying that she thinks that everything is fine in the Department.

I did not say that.

We can discuss that later. The terms of reference concentrate on administrative issues and Mr. Travers seems to have concentrated on them. There was very little focus on, and he draws very few conclusions regarding, what would be considered the political maladministration of the Department. If one thing has been pointed out in all this, it is that 2001 was a watershed for the issue. The Minister has referred to 1978, when legal advice was received on it. I have never heard of that advice, and I do not think that it is now available.

The next issue is the Minister's response. I did not have time to check, but was the Minister's response at the time published in the Travers report? What did the Minister of the day say when he received advice in 1978 that the charges were illegal? Did he sign his name at the bottom of it and file it away for ever more? There are also issues regarding the files that I will raise once I have perused the report.

The health boards did not challenge in court any case brought against them. They charged some people but not others. Does that not mean that there is a certain element of fraud involved? Has that been discussed at Government level? Some people were deliberately charged for nursing home care while at the same time others who challenged the charges were not. Was the issue of why the practice was being carried out across the country referred to the previous Minister, Deputy Martin, or even to one of his Ministers of State? Where does the current Minister stand on it?

Unfortunately, we have not been given the opportunity to discuss the report in great detail. It first discusses the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely. Apparently, Mr. Travers was told that there was a relatively brief discussion on the long-term care issue of charges. I understand that in the Dáil, the Tánaiste said that it had been dealt with in some detail. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely, stated that he would speak to the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Martin. The report states:

Minister Callely has informed me that his purpose in saying this at the meeting was to keep Minister Martin, who was not present at the meeting for the discussion on long stay charges, and the Taoiseach, informed that legal advice was being sought by the Department on the issue of charges for persons in long stay care in health board institutions.

The report also states:

Minister Callely informed me he recalls that he briefly mentioned the eligibility issue of long stay care of the over 70s medical card holders in the course of a Dáil vote on an unrelated matter to An Taoiseach in December 2003, to the effect that his Department officials informed him that there was different legal advices on "eligibility versus entitlement". He said it was made clear to him that the various issues could not be addressed until the legal position was defined and it was Minister Callely's understanding that the Department of Health and Children was seeking clarity and definite legal opinion.

Then it was totally forgotten. Essentially he is saying that the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely, informed both the Minister, Deputy Martin, and the Taoiseach, and that the issue had been raised with them personally. Nothing was done. There is a question to be asked regarding that issue. Another part of the report concerns Mr. Kelly, the Secretary General, in his report to Mr. Travers.

Can the Deputy tell us from where he is reading?

This is page 50, paragraph (4). His statement reads as follows.

I did not retain the folder and my firm belief is that I referred it elsewhere in the Department. I can think of no reason why I would have sent it to any official in the Department. However, given its potential consequences, my belief is that I would have brought it to the attention of the Minister, in advance of issuing the letter.

One might ask what is the relevance of that. Page 51, paragraph (6) reads as follows:

A folder containing the January 2004 submission was observed by another official of the Department (who would have recognised it and was aware of its significance) in the outer office of the Minister's Office at some point in early 2004. As a trusted and experienced member of the Department's staff I have no reason to doubt the validity of the very clear and explicit recollection described by this official.

Although the Secretary General might not have been aware of whither the folder disappeared from his office, it was quite clear to another official in the Department — something else not teased out in any great detail — that the folder was in the Minister's own office in the Department some time in early 2004. We all recognise that an enormous volume of correspondence passes through the Department of Health and Children. It includes parliamentary questions from Deputies, correspondence from health boards and voluntary organisations. While this matter was given the recognition it deserved with the Department, it does not seem to have been given the recognition it deserved at the political level. Mr. Travers to some degree has not emphasised this sufficiently.

This again is concerned with the statement of the former Minister, Deputy Martin, which says: "In that the item was dealt with quickly and in advance of my attendance and was referred on for clarification, it is clear that any mention of the discussions which may have taken place was at the very most brief and undetailed." He is confirming that this was a very short meeting. He makes an interesting point in his submission: "It is difficult to understand what purpose would have been served by referring such a file to my office as I was not being requested to sign the proposed letter or to contribute on the matter."

When this issue was raised with the Tánaiste, did she request the file in question be sent to her or did she just ask one of her officials to look into the issue? It is important to know what her approach was. Did she ask an official to get the Attorney General's advice on the issue or did she ask if there was any file or correspondence within the Department that she felt might be sufficiently important to read before she made any decision on it? I would like her answer on that issue because her handling of the matter seems to have varied from that of her predecessor.

On page 71, paragraph (11), it states:

I have been informed by the Department of Health and Children that the agenda and papers for the meeting were circulated to all of those listed as being in attendance at the meeting on the afternoon of 15 December 2003, i.e. the afternoon of the day immediately before the meeting. The papers were sent to their offices in the case of Ministers.

The minutes of this meeting that took place on 16 December 2003, between chief executive officers and high level officials from the Tánaiste's Department were sent to all Ministers the day before. Again, this is not just a monthly meeting or a tidying-up forum that occurs at intervals with the Department. I do not expect Ministers to remember or pay full attention to every meeting they attend. Some Ministers attend numerous departmental meetings during the course of the working day or week. However, one might a imagine that a two-page memo arising from a Minister meeting twice a year with senior Department of Health and Children officials and the health board CEOs would warrant a certain amount of attention. The farcical answers we have been hearing such as Ministers being in the toilet, being unable to attend or being late are not acceptable to the Oireachtas. We should have better answers from this report apart from the assertion that this is how it was, Ministers did not turn up and we are supposed to accept it.

I will allow other committee members to comment on some of the other recommendations. However, I would like to have the one concerning the role of special advisers better explained. Reading between the lines of the report, it seems that special advisers were not there to advise the Minister on what he was hearing, but were very much in the chain of command within the Department of Health and Children. My reading is that such advisers would talk to officials before the Minister did. It appears as if the Minister did not have direct contact with officials and advisers were dealing more with what was taking place within the Department. One can see how something might go wrong, with the Minister placing a buffer between himself and the officials. That is how I read it and I should like that to be clarified as well.

There should be direct contact between Ministers and officials. Mr. Kelly has alluded to this to some degree in saying that perhaps there was no copy of correspondence. This is important because what motive would the Secretary General have for saying he briefed the Minister on the issue, even on 10 March, when the Minister says he has no recollection of this? There is no written correspondence, but is there any reason for Mr. Kelly to lie? He does not seem to benefit in any way by doing this. The Minister is obviously getting the benefit of the doubt, not Mr. Kelly.

I have no doubt officials in the Department of Health and Children have much to answer for and that is clear all through the report. However, the same rationale does not appear to apply to their political masters, to use that term, within the Department of Health and Children, who seem to flit in and out, forget or neglect to read about what in effect are major issues. I am sure somebody must have pointed out that if this issue was allowed to continue, it would cost the taxpayer about €100 million year. We have heard a great deal about that since.

Those are some of the points in the report on which I would like answers from the Tánaiste. Other members will hopefully have picked out more items about which they feel it is important for the committee to get answers. I hope we will come back to this on a later date, on Committee Stage, and get clear answers. In the meantime, I will have had the opportunity to digest this report and perhaps I will find other anomalies for the Minister or her Department to answer.

Before we move on to the next speaker, Deputy McManus, I remind the committee that it is hoped that we can come back to this in a fortnight as well. It is also important for members to note that the Whips have agreed to take statements and questions and answers tomorrow in the Dáil.

I welcome the publication of this report at long last. The way its publication has been managed to protect the Taoiseach is quite despicable. However, the wriggling out of responsibility not only is a feature of the report's publication but also of the Government approach. Let us just look at what a Minister's actual role is under the Public Service Management Act 1997:

A Minister of the Government having charge of a Department shall, in accordance with the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, 1924 to 1995, be responsible for the performance of functions that are assigned to the Department pursuant to any of those Acts.

In November 1996, while in Opposition, the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, said:

Ministers are entitled to demand the best service the Civil Service can provide but if civil servants fail they should not be scapegoated. They should not be scapegoated on their failures when Ministers do not make the best use of the service provided.

The Minister, Deputy Harney, who was not a Minister then, said:

Accountability means that a Minister must take charge, must exert authority over his or her Department, and must avoid doing certain things because they are wrong but must do other things that are required of them. That is what duty is all about.

That is very clear, and using those yardsticks while recognising the responsibilities a Minister has, there is only one conclusion, namely, that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, should resign from the Cabinet and take responsibility for what has happened under his watch. This is the obvious conclusion in terms of political responsibility, quite apart from maladministration. I can come to no other conclusion. I am pretty confident that were the current Minister for Health and Children, who has ensured that this report is published at long last, sitting here, she would come to the same conclusion, that the Minister, Deputy Martin, should not be in Cabinet.

Has the Deputy reached that conclusion on the basis of the Travers report?

I am concluding that from the Travers report and——

I do not want to butt in, but how does one reconcile the fact that——

I am sorry. I believe I am entitled to——

I am just trying to follow the Deputy's train of thought.

The Chairman should allow me to say it in my own way.

I have not got the same conclusions from the report. That is why I was wondering.

I am sorry.

I am just trying to be clear about this.

We will try to break any possibility of the fact that this report——

The Deputy must speak through the Chair.

The Chairman's job is not to interrupt me. His job to facilitate the members of the committee.

I am trying to follow the report. The Deputy made a statement. I am wondering where we can find it in the report.

I want to complete my statement. The Chairman will not stop me from doing so.

I am not trying to stop the Deputy.

The Chairman should therefore allow me to continue.

I will allow her but I am trying to follow the report and I cannot find the statement.

I am an elected member of this committee and I am entitled to speak.

As I am. I clearly stated that I was trying to follow the report.

I am trying to develop the point I made.

I was wondering where it was in the report so I could go to the relevant page.

May I speak?

Of course.

There is clear political responsibility.

I refer again to the point that I am reading from the report that Mr. Travers——

I have never experienced this before. This is outrageous. The Chairman is being political and is defending his Minister and that is disgraceful.

I am not.

The Deputy should withdraw that remark.

I will not.

I am protecting nobody. I ask the Deputy to show me the reference in the report so I can follow her train of thought.

What question does the Chairman want answered?

Where in the report does it refer to the fact that the Minister should resign?

The Deputy is quite entitled to come to her own conclusions.

I am trying to be helpful in this.

With respect, the Chairman's points are irrelevant in this matter.

I am trying to be helpful.

Is the Chairman asking where it states in the report that the Minister should resign? Or is he looking for evidence that there was political maladministration on this issue?

I am trying to read the report in the short time that we have it. In the report, there is no indication from any document that Mr. Travers has read that any such briefing was provided to the Minister. I am trying to reconcile that.

It has been pointed out by the report that the Minister did so.

May I have the time to make a statement?

Of course.

I want to do this in a way that is respectful to the Chairman. I ask that the Chairman be respectful to me.

I am trying to be helpful.

That is the only conclusion that can be made in this report. We all understand why the Minister is trying to bring many Governments into this particular narrative. There have clearly been doubts and concerns on this for a long time. I ask that the Minister publish the various legal opinions. The opinion by the then senior counsel, Ronan Keane is often referred to, but the opinion by the South Eastern Health Board is not published. It would be useful to have all this material out in the open.

When the Supreme Court made its judgement, it said that the issue was beyond doubt in 2001. Whatever doubt there was beforehand, it became crystal clear from the moment when the legislation was enacted by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats to extend medical card eligibility to those over the age of 70 years. The report uses the term "doubly unlawful". So there is no doubt about its legality and it is also clear that the Department had knowledge of that and that the Minister is responsible for the Department.

At the MAC meeting on 16/12/03, this issue was dealt with as it was considered to be serious. The Secretary General states on page 50:

On Minister Martin's arrival at the meeting venue (Gresham Hotel), I was contacted by his Private Secretary and I left the meeting room for a short period (10 minutes or so) during which I met with him at the entrance to the hotel and briefed him on the discussion so far, including nursing home charges, as well as on the mood generally at the meeting.

Given the participation of Ministers of State Callely and O'Malley and Advisors in the earlier part of the meeting they would also have been in possession of the information necessary to brief the Minister or to follow up any concerns they had in their own right. Notes taken by the Secretary at the meeting indicate that Minister of State Callely had indicated his intention to brief both the Taoiseach and the Minister on the problem.

Are we being asked to believe that Mr. Michael Kelly is lying? If that is the case, I find it hard to take on board. I do not see why he would do so. If anyone in this room believes that Mr. Kelly is lying, can they come out and say so? I have been blunt about my views. People need to state that they believe that he was lying.

In regard to the folder that developed as a result of this meeting, the Secretary General states:

I did not retain the folder and my firm belief is that I referred it elsewhere in the Department. I can think of no reason why I would have sent it to any official in the Department. However, given its potential consequences, my belief is that I would have brought it to the attention of the Minister, in advance of issuing the letter.

He is being clear here. He is not saying that he definitely gave it to the Minister, but he is eliminating the possibility that he might have given it to anyone else. This looks like a man who is very careful about what he is saying. He is not making outrageous attacks on anyone. He is stating that his belief is that he referred it and that he cannot think of any reason he would give it to any other official. Why would he give it to any other official? He states:

A folder containing the January 2004 submission was observed by another official of the Department in the outer office of the Minister's Office at some point in early 2004.

He goes on to state:

Over the following weeks and months, had the folder with the submission been returned to me, I am confident that it would have prompted the appropriate response on my part.

Not only did the Minister have the information given to him verbally, presumably by his Ministers of State, he also had the folder which held up the letter that was to go to the Attorney General. That is what one can ascertain from this part of the report.

Ministers have a panoply of civil servants around them to do a very difficult job. We all understand it is a difficult job and I have been a Minister of State. I am also conscious that there is much support given to Ministers and that ultimately, the buck stops at the Minister's door. In this instance, it seems to me that a civil servant is being made a scapegoat to protect a Minister. We will have to develop the issue further, but that is the way it seems to be going in my view. I will not be party to that. We are elected and no one forces us to be Minister. We take on that job and a duty is attached to it. When a Department is not managed correctly and when things are not done in a proper way in accordance with the law, the Minister carries responsibility. I am sure the Minister agrees with me on this. That is why I have come to the conclusion that this Minister should not have a Cabinet position any longer.

In page 54, the Minister himself states: "The fact is that this was not drawn to my attention either formally or informally at any time." The two statements cannot be reconciled, but that is what the Minister is stating.

I welcome the Tánaiste and her officials to the meeting. When I addressed the Taoiseach this morning, I stated that the Green Party would not support the dumping on civil servants. When the Tánaiste spoke a few weeks ago about maladministration, I am on record as saying that the way was now being prepared to find scapegoats. I am afraid this is what has happened.

That is correct.

It is a feature of this Government. We have had reports on Punchestown and on the hiring of a public relations executive by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen. Now we have the Travers report.

The Tánaiste should contrast this situation with the speedy action taken by Deputy Phil Hogan when, as Minister of State, he was found to have made an error. Deputy Hogan did not blame civil servants bur rather made the correct decision by resigning from office. By contrast, there is a tendency on the part of this Government to brazen it out. In this instance, civil servants have been asked to take the rap. Does the Tánaiste believe this is correct and proper behaviour? She was the person who went into Government promising to keep an eye on these types of issues. Her party claimed that Fianna Fáil could not be trusted to govern alone. She has an opportunity today to say what she thinks of all this.

This report exposes a monumental and chaotic mess and shows that the interface between civil servants and the Ministers involved was extremely confused. The meeting that took place on 16 December 2003 was attended by the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, who said he was going to talk to the Taoiseach but seems to have had only a brief discussion. The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, was also there and says he assumed progress would be made on the issue. Is this Government on the hoof? It seems to be an Administration in which people make assumptions.

I hear Deputy Callely is excellent at following up in his constituency where he has the reputation of being reliable in responding to queries. However, where was the follow-up to this meeting? Why did the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, assume progress was being made? Most important, why did the Minister, Deputy Martin, just assume matters were ticking along nicely?

The Tánaiste has eulogised civil servants today. However, it appears it is only they who will take the rap on this matter. Does the Tánaiste trust the Secretary General? I ask her not to beat about the bush in her response but to offer a simple "Yes" or "No". If the Tánaiste does not believe the Secretary General's version of events, that represents a major breakdown in trust between the Minister and her civil servants. If, on the other hand, the Tánaiste trusts the Secretary General, there are serious implications for the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin.

I note with interest the Tánaiste's comments in regard to the Health Service Executive. There are many people in the Department of Health and Children who are not happy with the way the HSE has developed. The Tánaiste went on to say more resources are required for her Department. At least the Minister, Deputy Martin, was prepared to say he would introduce extra taxes in order to get more resources. The Tánaiste does not even say that and one must wonder how these extra resources will be secured.

This report has critical implications for the manner in which the Department will function from now on. Whatever about going back to 1976, there can be no excuse for the way the Government has acted since 2001 and especially in 2003 when legal advice was received in the form of an 80-page memorandum. The Tánaiste must take responsibility for her attempt to legalise theft. She is the one who brought legislation to that effect into the House. This issue has been a mess for the Government from start to finish.

The Government has at least had the courage to face up to the problem.

There has been no evidence of such courage.

This situation has been ongoing for years. Anybody who has read the report knows that.

I hope Government Members have the courage to ask for resignations.

Deputy Gormley should refer to page 39 of the report.

Deputy Gormley should be allowed to continue without interruption.

I hope the Government will not defend the indefensible and that the Tánaiste will have the courage of her convictions and ask for resignations in cases where people have misbehaved and have not taken their duties seriously.

I thank the Tánaiste for meeting the committee so promptly following publication of the report. The report has only been in circulation for approximately 90 minutes and during that time we have had two Dáil votes. I have only had time for a brief perusal of the document and it is not possible to have any definitive discussion about it in these circumstances.

In this context, I strongly welcome the Chairman's statement that we will resume later, after we have all had a chance to examine the report in depth and gain a clearer understanding of its import.

Appendices 14, 15 and 16 clearly indicate for the first time that this issue was discussed at the meetings of the MAC-CEO group. The fourth item on the agenda of the meeting on 16 December 2003 was a consideration of long-stay charges for the over 70s. The conclusion in this matter was that it was necessary to obtain a definitive legal assessment of the present arrangement as a first step. The second item on the agenda for the next meeting on 29 March 2004 mentioned that the Department had sought legal advice in regard to long-stay charges. Details of the final meeting in October 2004 indicate that the Department acknowledged the pressure building on the issue and stated that the legal options were still under review. I have one question for the Tánaiste in this regard. Was a definitive legal opinion obtained by the Tánaiste or her predecessor in the Department? If so, when did the Tánaiste receive that legal opinion?

Several members, Deputy McManus in particular, have expressed satisfaction that the report has finally been received. I do not know if members understand the enormous task Mr. Travers fulfilled in three months. The report was due to be completed on 1 March. However, Mr. Travers received a submission the Friday before that and another on 1 March which prevented him from completing the report until last Friday. Mr. Travers has worked almost single-handedly since 16 September, day in and day out, and through Christmas and the new year. It was a mammoth task which involved consultation with various Departments in search of records that went back to 1975.

We applaud him.

I received the report last Friday afternoon and must acknowledge that Mr. Travers has done an outstanding public service in record time.

We agree with the Tánaiste.

I gave a commitment when I established this process that the report would be published. Why would I commission a report if it were not to be published? Accusations were made that it would not be published in advance of the by-elections. I am never afraid of the truth. We can get nowhere if we do not deal with issues on a truthful basis and those who lie are usually caught out.

Deputy Twomey asked me about the advice from the then senior counsel, Mr. Ronan Keane, in 1978 and the attitude of the then Minister when it was brought to his attention. The report states in this regard:

The papers refer to proposals having been put forward by the Department in 1979 to "effect a suitable change in the definition of full eligibility" in the Health Act 1970. They ascribe ..... to the then Minister the view that he was "not keen to pursue this course of action".

I have been asked about who is telling the truth and who is lying. I will not adjudicate where there is a conflict of evidence.

Does the Tánaiste trust the Secretary General?

I will deal with what I was told. I assumed my role in the Department of Health and Children on 30 September 2004. Nobody briefed me on this issue, informed me of the concerns or pointed out that the legislation to establish the HSE should be used as an opportunity to legislate for the legalisation of these charges. I sought the Attorney General's advice in October, which was within a month of becoming Minister at this Department. I made that decision and I will take the rap for such decisions. I will not scapegoat civil servants or advisers and anyone else.

That is what the Tánaiste is doing now.

I asked the Secretary General for a report on these matters before I went to the Cabinet in December. We were bringing forward new legislation because I sought to protect the €2.5 million per week that we collect and, if possible, to make it legal retrospectively. The report I received is in the appendices, from page 145. This report is the reason I set up the Travers inquiry. It states "Overall, this body of law is quite complex, and has previously been regarded as allowing for some uncertainty as to interpretation." It also states "the Department and health boards have stood over this practice in the bona fide belief that it was legally defensible." It further states "The question of long-stay charges does not seem to have been given explicit consideration at the time the decision was made." That is true. The report refers to the discussion at the MAC meeting but I was not told in the report that there was a letter drafted and a file sent to the Secretary General. The Government made a decision and brought forward legislation on my recommendation, which was based on the information I had been given.

Could the Tánaiste simply answer the questions we have put? I asked a direct question. We have the report in front of us that includes the version of events supplied by the Secretary General. Does she trust the Secretary General?

I want to say to the Deputy——

The Tánaiste should answer the question. Does she believe in the truth?

(Interruptions).

I was not given the facts. I will not talk about what happened before I entered the Department. I will take responsibility from 29 September 2004. I was not told about this problem, nor does the report that was prepared for the Cabinet tell me about a letter that was drafted. I said in the Dáil on Second Stage of the Bill that I did not know why the letter was not sent. That is why I wanted an inquiry.

Does the Tánaiste trust him?

I will not answer any questions about trust. I will not make a choice between the Secretary General or the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, because there is a serious conflict——

The Tánaiste is going to defend him.

There is a serious conflict of evidence and I will not adjudicate on that.

The Tánaiste is damn right that there is a serious conflict of evidence.

Will the individual in question continue to be the Secretary General?

The Deputy must ask questions through the Chair.

Through the Chair, will he continue to be Secretary General?

Nobody will be made scapegoat by me or anyone else on my behalf.

Why, therefore, is the Secretary General moving from his job?

At the risk of being accused of not being impartial, surely we are not here to——

To get the truth.

We are here to get the truth. The Tánaiste has recognised the fact that there is a conflict but the question asked by the Deputy is not for this forum.

This man is moving job. Why is he leaving his job? Will the Tánaiste indicate why that is the case?

I will not comment on that.

What are we doing here?

We are here to discuss the report.

We are here to obtain answers.

This is an issue of critical public concern.

The Secretary General, Mr. Michael Kelly, is entitled to be respected here. If there is an announcement to be made about him changing jobs, it is a matter for him and others to make that announcement. It is not a matter for me and I will not be party to anybody seeking to undermine him.

Members obviously were not listening when I began the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should comment on, criticise or make charges against people who are not in the House.

We are not making any charges.

The members are making charges by implication.

On a point of information. It was mentioned on public radio this morning that the said gentleman was moving from the Department. That was not challenged afterwards. Is his absence today proof that this version of events is correct? This matter has been in the public domain for a number of hours.

As an impartial Chairman, I must make people aware of the fact that we cannot refer to people who are not here.

If it is not true, why was it not challenged on the radio? Why is he not here today?

Other members want to ask questions.

I asked the Tánaiste about the role of the Minister in the Department of Health and Children. From the legislation, it seems that the Secretary General may have the same if not more responsibility than the Minister. When Members ask about the Secretary General's position, they are not being difficult. They are asking valid questions. If there was a crisis in Government and someone asked about the role of the Tánaiste or the Taoiseach, it would be nonsense to say they had nothing to do with the crisis. The Secretary General has a significant role in the Department of Health and Children and it is valid to ask what is happening there.

I am trying to get to that by way of the responses to the four leading questions.

That is true. The Secretary General has a significant role and, as the report acknowledges, he has played such a role. If there is an announcement to be made regarding anyone's future position, it should be made in conjunction with the individual. Normal human decency would require that. The report criticises Ministers for not probing enough. It is also critical of advisers in that respect. On page 91, the report states:

There were also shortcomings at political level over the years since 1976 in not probing and questioning more strongly and assiduously the issues underlying the practices of charges for long stay care in health board institutions even if, or perhaps even because, the analyses and briefings being provided by the officials in the Department of Health and Children appears to have been deficient in many respects. These shortcomings were, however, of a nature, scale, substance and order of magnitude considerably less than those of the system of public administration.

Again, it points the finger at the Civil Service.

Does the Deputy respect Mr. Travers?

I do. I respect the Secretary General as well.

(Interruptions).

Was the Secretary General told to stay away today? Did he wish to attend this meeting?

He was not told to stay away.

We invited the Tánaiste here. Nobody else was invited.

Surely the Secretary General would attend as well.

I am told the statement on the Secretary General was issued. I can, therefore, confirm that Mr. Michael Kelly is moving from the Department of Health and Children on a secondment basis to become the Chairman of the Higher Education Authority.

That is scapegoating.

Can we please have some order? This is unfair on the Tánaiste and the other Members.

On page 91, the report states:

In summary, the fundamental reason for the period of time that elapsed from the date at which legal concerns about the practice of long stay charges in health board institutions was known up to the request by the Department of Health and Children for legal advice from the Attorney General on 27 October 2004 lies in long term systemic corporate failure. That failure is principally a failure of public administration which, essentially, failed to identify, recognise and acknowledge the difference between actions and practices widely regarded as fair and reasonable and supportive of the development and protection of essential public health services and actions and practices that were legally valid. The failure of administration was compounded by the fact that the solution to the dichotomy between what was, perhaps, admirable and desirable from a public health, operational and societal perspective and what was legally valid was readily amenable to remedy through the introduction of a simple legislative amendment.

These are the conclusions of the report. There are many recommendations for change, which will be implemented. I look forward to working with the officials from the Department of Health and Children to implement the recommendations. I repeat what I said earlier, notwithstanding the findings of the report. More than 600 civil servants work in the Department of Health and Children in very pressurised circumstances. They do a hard job with huge commitment, dedication and professionalism. I stand over those comments although they are not incompatible with systemic maladministration. We should acknowledge that all of us, including politicians, make mistakes.

What about political responsibility?

I am drawing the conclusions of the report.

Could the Minister comment on political responsibility?

Politicians are ultimately responsible.

He is getting away scot free.

The Department is headed by a politician——

How far back does the Deputy wish to go?

A politician is accountable to the Oireachtas.

The Tánaiste should be allowed speak without interruption.

There is a great deal of amnesia about.

I have concluded.

I refer to page 89, paragraph (8) regarding the full eligibility of medical card holders for inpatient treatment. The Minister also referred to card holders who were involved in medical treatment. Has the Minister any views or advice regarding the extension of that finding to meeting the costs of private nursing homes where people with medical cards were refused entry to a public nursing home? This could have serious implications if a person with a medical card who was entitled to care in a public nursing home was refused entry and was obliged to access a private nursing home. Is there a cost implication?

It is clear from the evidence on page 147 of the report that the private secretary of the former Minister, Deputy Martin, was contacted by the Secretary General. On Deputy Martin's arrival at the meeting venue, the Secretary General was contacted by his private secretary and he left the meeting for a period of ten minutes or so to brief him on the discussion so far, including the nursing home charges as well as the mood generally at the meeting. Surely the former Minister was fully apprised and any suggestion that he has the excuse of not being at the meeting is unacceptable? The Secretary General made a decision and a special effort to apprise Deputy Martin's private secretary to ensure he was aware of the discussions. Over recent weeks we have heard Deputy Martin was not at the meeting, but this is surely unsustainable.

It is misleading.

I also welcome the Tánaiste and pay tribute to Mr. Travers who has conducted such a thorough inquiry in such a short time, especially when we look at other inquiries that have continued for years but have yet to produce reports. The clear and concise report is a great achievement. I refer to the High Court decision of June 1975 on page 10 of the report. Can the Tánaiste advise if the question of chargeability is related to the level of care? Could this be determined by the High Court decision? Is it possible that the State may not be completely liable for all care charges made since 1976? I am not nearly as intelligent as my colleague, Deputy Gormley, who has digested the entire report in 40 minutes, being the extraordinary character that he is.

The Deputy is a bright man.

I now have read as far as page 45 of the report. This question might be most appropriately addressed towards Mr. Mooney. How frequently would a Department seek the advice of an Attorney General? Is it an infrequent occurrence? The evidence on page 44 of the report indicates that the Secretary General had decided it was not necessary to go to the Minister on the issue shortly after the meeting of 16 December 2003. By 10 March 2004, the Secretary General makes the point that he again raised with the Minister the question of the long stay charges for over-70s. Would one expect to receive advice from the Attorney General fairly promptly? There was a lapse of time from December to March and we know that the fact that the letter did not issue became a problem subsequently. If one sent a letter in early December, would one not be prompted to call up the Attorney General to find out why no response was forthcoming? Would this time lapse indicate to the Secretary General that something was missing in terms of advice?

I have two brief questions. Is the Tánaiste psychic? I ask because we were debating the nursing home fiasco in the Seanad on 23 February and at the time I stated that Deputy Martin was responsible. Certainly, the Progressive Democrats Members were apportioning blame to him. The Tánaiste then informed me that he would not be found guilty in the report. I asked her how she could say so and if she was prejudging the report. The Tánaiste appears to have been vindicated today with the report's publication, where the blame has been shifted onto the civil servants. How did the Tánaiste know two weeks ago that Deputy Martin would not be found guilty in this report? Was she receiving regular briefings from Mr. Travers while he prepared the report? It seems amazing that the Tánaiste was able to speak with such clarity.

The central issue of this report is the conflicting evidence between Mr. Kelly and the former Minister, Deputy Martin. Does the Tánaiste agree that her handling of the issue contrasts sharply with Deputy Martin's mishandling of the issue? Can she state categorically that she has full confidence in her Cabinet colleague, Deputy Martin, as a result of this report? It is a straightforward question and everyone is wondering about it. Can the Tánaiste sit alongside him in Cabinet? I heard the Taoiseach give him a very lukewarm backing in the Dáil today. If I were Deputy Martin, I would not be optimistic about remaining in Cabinet much longer. The public is very disillusioned at present, with €60 million squandered on electronic voting without repercussions and now at least €500 million of taxpayers' money squandered, again without repercussions, with political responsibility being ignored.

I warmly welcome the Tánaiste and her officials. I refer to page 38, section 4.25 of the report to remind us of what this issue is about. It states:

It may be important to point out, to the extent that this might otherwise not be apparent, that the problems surrounding the custom and practice of charges for long-term care in health board institutions did not start with, or derive from, the 2001 Act. These problems, as indicated, had their origins in the decisions taken many years previously.

It is important that we all bear sentences like that in mind and stop jumping up and down and introducing all manner of side issues.

Such as the issues the Deputy raised.

Why does the Senator not quote the Supreme Court——

Such as Senator Browne's comments.

Could I ask the Senator——

I hold the floor.

Senator Feeney should be allowed speak without interruption.

What about the Supreme Court?

I will explain what I mean by people "jumping up and down". Senator Browne has again thrown in that old rag of an issue, electronic voting. Can we deal with the issue we are meeting to discuss?

Absolutely.

I am not aware that people are as angry as the Senator suggested.

Did it happen? I am using electronic voting as an example.

Senator Feeney, please proceed.

(Interruptions).

Can the Minister or her officials tell me if, from 1976, the long-term care issue was ever raised at health board level? There were 11 health boards throughout the country, on which politicians of all hues served. Was the issue raised from 1976 to the present and, if so, how was it dealt with?

I will answer all the questions, though not necessarily in the order they were asked. Deputy Neville asked about the nursing home subvention, which is a completely different issue. I accept that it is related but people with medical cards who are in nursing homes either receive a subvention or pay the balance themselves. Legal advice received by the Department of Health and Children and from the Attorney General has confirmed that this is legally sound. However, in light of all of this, Mr. Smith is carrying out an audit of the Department regarding the legal issues around many of these charges. The Attorney General is assisting in this process because there is considerable confusion about that to which people are entitled. We discussed this last night on Committee Stage of the Health (Amendment) Bill.

Deputy O'Malley asked whether it depends on the level of medical care. The answer is no. The institutional assistance regulations are still in place but essentially it is not legally permissible to charge if any medical care is given. The situation would be different if a person was merely being accommodated in a hospital and was not receiving medical care. If any level of medical care, such as, for example, nursing care or care by a paramedic, is given, that qualifies under the 1970 Act as full eligibility.

Senator Browne asked whether I knew in advance what the Travers report would contain. I met Mr. Travers on 16 December 2004, which I think was the day I appointed him. I next met him three weeks ago when he came to interview me about what I was told and what I was not told. The only other meeting I had with him was on Monday week last. He informed me that he would not have the report ready for me the next day because information was being given to him on Friday but that he would try to have it ready by the end of the following week. I then met him on Friday when he gave me the report. As he was getting documents from the Department of Health and Children and other Departments, including the Department of Finance, my officials and the Attorney General were informing me about what was coming to light. That is the reason the State did not argue at any stage in the Supreme Court case that this was done in good faith because, between the passing of the Act and its referral by the President to the Supreme Court, the Attorney General and my Department made me aware of the Keane judgment dating back to 1978 and other legal advice.

There is a serious conflict between the evidence in the report from the Secretary General, Michael Kelly, and that provided by the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. I have already said that I will not adjudicate regarding this conflict of evidence because it would be both unfair and wrong of me to do so. If I do not have confidence in a Cabinet colleague, I will inform the Taoiseach of this. I would not remain in Government with a colleague in whom I did not have confidence.

Does the Tánaiste have confidence in the Minister, Deputy Martin?

The December meeting was held, as we know, and legal advice was to be sought. A letter was drafted very quickly and efficiently in the Department. Another meeting was held on, I think, 29 March. I have the minutes of that meeting here. At that meeting, it was said legal advice was being sought from the Attorney General. That was not true. At another meeting between the management team of the Department held in October 2004 after I became Minister for Health and Children, it was stated that legal options were being explored. This was not the case either. I wish to place on record that these are the facts.

Any advice health boards received is a matter for them. Of course many people in the health boards knew. Deputies in the Dáil are in possession of some of this advice. I heard a Deputy quote from it recently. I refer to the advice received by the South Eastern Health Board in, as far as I remember, October 2002, which was brought to the attention of the Department in March 2003. The Eastern Health Board received the Keane advice in 1978. Other advices were received in the meantime. When cases were challenged, the advice given was not to contest them.

The Tánaiste said that certain information was late in arriving, that this was what delayed it.

No. A statement was provided by the Secretary General on the Friday and another was provided on 1 March. I think Mr. Travers refers to it at the start of the report.

Deputy Fiona O'Malley asked whether the Attorney General was frequently consulted. I am of the view that the answer is yes. From previous experience — there are many people in the Oireachtas with far more ministerial experience than me — I am aware that when a Minister is presented with facts, he or she is normally presented with legal advice relating to those facts if there was some controversy of dispute involved. Advice usually is sought through official channels and the Minister involved would often raise the matter informally with the Attorney General. In my experience, it is normally done in writing through the official channels. The Department of Health and Children has huge responsibility and is involved in dealing with much legislation. In the course of preparing such legislation, it would be in constant contact with the Attorney General's office. If any of the officials would like to speak, I would be more than happy for them do so.

Mr. Dermot Smyth

I confirm what the Tanáiste said. The answer to the Deputy's question is that we frequently seek advice from the Attorney General's office and we receive prompt responses.

The fact that in December, the report——

I do not think the procedure being followed here is totally correct. I am advised that Mr. Smyth must provide his responses through the Tánaiste because he is not a witness.

The Tanáiste indicated that she was advised by the Department that advices were being sought from the Attorney General. It has subsequently been discovered that this was not the case.

I was never advised by the Department. I referred to the minutes of two meetings, the first of which was a meeting of the CEO-MAC group and took place on 29 March 2004 and the second of which was a meeting that took place in October. The minutes of the previous meeting of the CEO-MAC group in December acknowledge that legal advice was being sought from the Attorney General. The minutes of the October meeting state that legal options were being explored.

It is stated on page 44 of the report that the Secretary General of the Department, with admirable speed, established a working group following the meeting. It is also stated that the letter arrived on the desk of the Minister on 27 January but that it then went nowhere. Is that what the Tánaiste is stating?

There is a dispute over this and I will not adjudicate on it.

The folder was left on the Minister's desk.

I want to try to bring this matter to a conclusion.

I am slightly puzzled. The Tanáiste requested that the report be published. This was done and everyone gave credit to Mr. Travers for the report. He made a number of points in the report. The Tanáiste says she will not adjudicate on the difficult points. Who will adjudicate on them? Where do we go from here?

Before people leave the meeting, I wish to comment on that matter.

The public is puzzled as to why the Government would spend a huge amount of money having a report produced.

May I comment on that?

Mr. Travers arrived at a number of conclusions and perhaps the Senator should read them.

We must have the time to read the report. I suggest that members do so and then return here. There is a debate in the Dáil tomorrow. Do members wish the report to be examined by the full committee or should this be done by a sub-committee?

The full committee.

The full committee will examine the report and will have plenty of time to go through all the questions that have been asked. It is clear that we have not read the report. Do members agree that we should return to this matter in two weeks' time?

When we go through the report in two weeks' time, we will highlight certain matters. However, there is no point in doing so if the Government is not going to take action. There are a few points that have been raised today in respect of which adjudication is needed.

That is unfair on the Government. It has taken action and scapegoated a civil servant.

The question——

Does this question have to be answered in the next two days or can we wait two weeks?

Forget about timeframes. Who, if anyone, will adjudicate?

We know how other committees operated in respect of matters of this sort and we will do likewise. We will examine the report and ask questions. We are not going to be able to do that today. There will be a debate on the report in the Dáil tomorrow.

This short debate has shown that multiple conclusions on the report have been drawn by several members. Upon reading it, does the Tánaiste believe it is inconclusive? It is certainly not conclusive enough for the joint committee but, regardless of what our decision will be, does she have any plans to seek a less hastyfollow-up report? Questions on the political issues have not been answered comprehensively enough to satisfy some members of the committee, particularly those in opposition.

The report comes to very strong and hard-hitting conclusions but it is a matter for the joint committee and others to pursue the political issues, if they so wish. It is not a matter for me as I have done my job. I asked a distinguished public servant to carry out an investigation and will act on the findings of his report.

Is it agreed that the joint committee will go through the report? Agreed.

Will that happen in two weeks time?

On 24 March.

At what time will we meet?

At the usual time, 9.30 a.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.20 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24 March 2005.

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