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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 2005

Hanly Report: Presentation.

The following presentation is by medical professionals opposed to the Hanly report. I welcome Dr. Tom Nolan, general practitioner; Mr. Peadar McMahon; Mr. Peadar McNamara, Ennis Hospital Action Group; Ms Marie O'Connor, public health researcher, and Dr. John Barton, Portiuncula Hospital, Galway. Perhaps Dr. Nolan might commence the presentation on the delegates' collective reasons for opposing the report. I understand each of them intends making a brief presentation. As the maximum time allocated is ten minutes, each speaker has been asked to adhere to a time limit of one minute and 40 seconds. I will ensure the time allocated is strictly adhered to in order that there will be adequate time for questions.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, that privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We have decided to go in a certain order, starting with Mr. McMahon.

Mr. Peadar McMahon

I am chairperson of the Health Services Action Group, HSAG, and also chairman of the County Monaghan Community Alliance. The Chairman has introduced the other members of the group. The HSAG was set up at a national meeting of concerned citizens from around the country. That meeting came about as a result of the removal of basic acute, 24-7 services, the downgrading of hospitals and the proposed centralisation of services to 12 sites. We oppose that type of hospital reform as being unsafe for patients, uneconomic and impractical. After the recent abolition of the health boards, people have no structures through which they can express their concerns or opinions regarding the health services in operation. We are thankful to the joint committee for the opportunity to come here and make our presentation.

In recent years the North Eastern Health Board, now the Health Service Executive, north-eastern area, has been implementing a policy of centralising services similar to the Hanly report's proposals. The people of Monaghan have experienced the disastrous consequences of this policy. Medical, surgical and trauma emergencies were taken by ambulance to other hospitals, including Dundalk, Drogheda, Cavan and, on occasion, Northern Ireland. Since July 2002 there have been at least 12 cases where the patient did not reach hospital in time to be saved or died very shortly afterwards. The people concerned might have survived had Monaghan Hospital been on-call for emergencies. At the same time numerous patients arrived by private transport to Monaghan Hospital and were treated, admitted and survived. They knew and were told afterwards by medical staff that they would never have reached another hospital alive.

It is very difficult for us to witness a state-of-the-art theatre, a full surgical health team and ancillary staff and a ward full of empty beds while Monaghan patients lie on trolleys in other hospitals waiting for a bed and treatment that could be provided safely and economically in Monaghan. To remove such basic services from Monaghan to Cavan or Drogheda is to deny the people of the county the right to equal access. The poor, the isolated, single mothers, the elderly and children are most disadvantaged and suffer extra trauma, pain and hardship as a result of the changes. However, no one will be spared when sickness strikes, and there will be more needless deaths. The Hanly-type reforms envisaged for the entire country will bring the same repercussions to people currently being served by hospitals like Monaghan but will also cause a knock-on effect for those served by the larger ones which are struggling to cope with their current workload. How can they cope with their current facilities if they must deal with the extra stream of patients who will come to them after the Hanly-type proposals are enacted?

I am not a medical person but as someone living in Monaghan, I am convinced by events there that the Hanly-type proposals for our small hospitals will not provide better services for our people. Rather, they will put basic services beyond the reach of those who most need them, cause further chaos in large hospitals and require countless billions of euro to implement. As concerned individuals and as a group, we have examined research into health systems elsewhere and, in particular, studied papers.

Mr. McMahon will have to finish shortly since time is very short.

Mr. McMahon

The other members will illustrate what the research shows.

I have four points to make. The Hanly report is premature, unsafe, undemocratic and out of date. It manages all of those four things, yet it is the proud policy of the Government. I hope members listen to what I say. References from approved teaching and training bodies countrywide relating to what I say which are not anecdotal can be found in the hand-outs.

The Hanly report is premature. The European Union working time directive is about harmonising work practices around the country, not about health care delivery. The report seeks to implement health care reforms and the directive at the same time. However, such massive change requires a period of stability and a great deal of resources, none of which we are willing to advance to these proposals. We do not have enough general practitioners or consultants. The Hanly report has grossly underestimated the numbers required in both areas, in the case of consultants by a factor of two.

The Hanly report is unsafe. The implementation timetable for commencement is immediate, that is, August 2004, yet we all know what was in place at that time — nothing, no advanced EMTs or nurse-practitioners. That is why we came to protest as patient advocates. We are not the only ones. All Clare GPs voted against it. The Association of Anaesthetists of Great Britain and Ireland stated it was worried about implementation without the necessary facilities and personnel being in place. The IMO consultants' committee called for an immediate patient impact statement before anything proceeded. Those are not the words of refuseniks in rural practices but of our own medical teaching and training bodies. Please listen to them.

The Hanly report is undemocratic. The Mid-Western Health Board voted to reject the Hanly report in its present form. Did that filter through to the democratic process? Democracy is the reason we are all here together as patient advocates. The Teljeur report is worth reading and members should read it. It shows how the consequences of the implementation of the Hanly report will be disadvantageous to people living in rural areas. The Hanly report has not been rural proofed. It must be or else we face the prospect of some form of legal challenge, whether it be based on the Constitution or the Health Act. We have enough of that.

The Hanly report is out of date and is completely out of step with the direction of reforms in Europe. Let us not start the process of reform with the Hanly report and my colleague, Dr. John Barton will outline the reasons for that.

Dr. John Barton

I will focus on a number of issues and the evidence which Mr. Hanly used to support the centralisation of emergency or urgent care. The evidence on which Mr. Hanly based his recommendations came from two papers from the United States and a paper from the United Kingdom which looked at the relationship between the volume and treatments provided as patients come through hospitals and the outcomes for those patients. The Hanly report states that there is a strong relationship between the volume of work that is done in a hospital and the outcome for the patient. What I, as a medical doctor, found when I researched the papers used was that there is not such a strong relationship. What really makes the difference is the facilities and staff who are providing evidence based care in the hospital to which the patient is admitted. If both go together, one will get good outcomes. That is what we need to focus on for acute and emergency care in hospital.

Centralisation has been shown to disadvantage the young and the old. This is appreciated in the United Kingdom, in particular, where many acute care services have been centralised in the past 20 years but as a consequence of the rethink on services in 2003, a report was commissioned entitled Keeping the National Health Service Local. The first task of the people who drew up that report was the need to find new ways of developing services to support the maintenance of effective acute emergency care in smaller general hospitals. The first task of the Hanly report was to close the emergency services in Nenagh and Ennis and in St. Michael's and Loughlinstown hospitals. It is incredible to think that there should be such a divergence of opinion between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

Another argument that Mr. Hanly used in terms of favouring centralisation was based on what was happening in Belgium and Denmark where they are closing hospitals. The fact is that after the reforms have been carried out in Belgium and Denmark, Belgium will have 28 acute hospitals per million population, Denmark will have 15 hospitals per million but Ireland has nine acute care hospitals per million population. Why should we close acute services in those hospitals? It does not make sense.

Quality and safety are important issues that must be addressed. When a former Minister announced the Hanly reforms, he indicated the issue was not about closing acute hospitals but about quality and safety. The terms quality and safety are used more than 100 times in the Hanly report and yet of the 115 submissions to Hanly, none is from the Irish Society for Quality and Safety in Health Care. Quality, under the Institute of Medicine definition is a health care system that is safe, effective, efficient, equitable and timely. We have a long way to go before we have a quality health care system. Safety is not delivered by consultants delivering care at the front end. As we should know, it is delivered by looking at systems, as in the airline industry, rather than individual performance.

The working time directive is the other major key issue that must be dealt with. Ireland has 22 doctors per 10,000 population, the EU average is 33 doctors per 10,000. We need more doctors. The other way to solve the working time directive is to have other health care professionals provide some of the services that doctors are currently providing.

On the issue of medical education and training which we have been told cannot take place in smaller hospitals, we in Portiuncula hospital have been approached by University College Hospital Galway which tells us that we are needed to provide medical student education. If we want more doctors, we must keep our smaller hospitals open so that we can provide medical student education.

Mr. Peader McNamara

I am from Ennis. The closure of the accident and emergency unit in Ennis hospital is undemocratic. The people from Clare were not consulted and 25,000 people from every walk of life expressed their rejection of that decision at a public rally. The assertion that the hospital is unsafe is rebutted and, as a consequence of the closure, at least 20 deaths will occur each year. These figures come from hospital records.

As to the assertion that the hospital is uneconomic, the cost of treating patients at Ennis hospital is 66% of the cost of treating patients in Limerick hospital. It is unfair that 70,000 people from Clare must travel for more than 60 minutes to the accident and emergency service in Limerick. When one considers that 900,000 tourists and 2.5 million passengers travelling though Shannon Airport are all potential users of accident and emergency services, it is unrealistic that none will be available in County Clare. The withdrawal of beds from the hospitals in Ennis and Nenagh will add 57% to Limerick's acute bed numbers, a total of 800 beds, which is far in excess of the maximum for efficient service and this shows that the proposal is not well thought out.

The British independent reconfiguration panel was invited by the Department of Health and Children to examine the Hanly report and its proposals for Ennis hospital. It recommended the development of Ennis hospital and that has not been acknowledged in the Hanly report. To give an example of how unjust is the decision, the Downpatrick hospital was due for closure but retained its accident and emergency services because of demographic and geographic considerations. That hospital serves a population of 55,000, whereas Ennis hospital serves a population of 103,000. Ennis hospital successfully cares for 95% of accident and emergency admissions while 5% are stabilised and dispatched for specialised care. We are not looking for services such as brain surgery, we want a basic health service. It is unacceptable and groups such as the GPs in Clare, the Ennis hospital consultant and nursing staff state that patient safety is ignored if the removal of the accident and emergency goes ahead.

Ennis hospital has 88 beds but since 1 January up to 26 extra patients have been accommodated in the day ward casualty unit, physio unit and extra beds in other wards. Other hospitals put trolleys in the corridors but as the corridors are too narrow in Ennis hospital, the staff do everything they can to meet the overflow. If all acute beds are located in Limerick an outbreak of the hospital virus bug may result in major curtailment of admissions. There will be no fallback facilities for medical needs for the region and that is bad planning. What is happening is unethical. In 2000, €20.9 million was promised to develop Ennis hospital. The new Health Service Executive may make this investment between 2005 and 2009. The election promise is ignored. Let us not forget that promises made in print and broadcast in the media are, in the view of the communities to which they were directed, legally binding.

Ms Marie O’Connor

If the Hanly report is implemented at least one third of the country's maternity units will close according to Dr. John Gallagher, the then chairman of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologist. He says that these cuts will endanger the lives of hundreds of thousands of women across Ireland unless services are put in their place. Women are at risk of roadside births and deaths and we have seen such cases in Monaghan where four babies were born on the side of the road since 2001. I am sure that members will remember the case of Ms Denise Livingstone. Unplanned out of hospital or roadside births carry very high death rates, and British research shows they are eight times higher than planned hospital births. Women are also at risk of induction and Caesarian section and both procedures carry substantial additional risks for mothers and babies.

More than 60,000 women give birth every year. Centralising the services in just a handful of units will make birth more painful. Hormones will be used to speed up labour in overcrowded units as a means of preventing bottlenecks in the labour ward. Women deserve better.

Thank you, we will now hand over to members of the committee and I call Deputy McManus.

I welcome the delegation. It is important that the committee discusses these issues because there is no other forum for such debate now that the health boards have been disbanded. Such paucity of opportunity for discussion is disturbing.

I have a number of questions for the delegation. Mr. Hanly is no longer active on this issue but our questions in the House are met with the response that the report is alive and is under consideration by the Health Service Executive and the hospital authorities. Has the delegation had any engagement with these bodies? If so, does it feel any change of approach is likely or is the implementation of the Hanly report likely to proceed as planned?

Issues of capacity are particularly pressing. Many find it difficult to understand why an argument to reduce services at local level has been put forward when there is such a strain on capacity. An important question relates to the possibility of conflict between access and quality, as observed by the delegation. Are there any universal principles that can be applied to ensure that, as far as is possible, acute hospital services will be available to provide for local needs in a safe and high-quality environment? Such standards are necessary if local hospitals are to have any future.

I am concerned about the prospect of any reduction in accident and emergency services. I represent a rural constituency which does not have its own hospital. We will be in deep trouble if we lose the accident and emergency facility in Loughlinstown Hospital. Apart from accident and emergency and other frontline services, how does one answer the case that highly specialised services such as maternity or cancer services cannot be provided in every acute hospital? Does the delegation have a view in this regard?

The issue raised by the delegation in regard to student education is interesting. There is clearly congestion in the major teaching hospitals in Dublin. In Beaumont Hospital, signs stating "No students" can be seen on doors. Has the delegation explored the critical concept of ensuring the entire network of hospitals can provide student education? It is essential that such a situation pertain if we are to train the required numbers of doctors.

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed by members of the delegation. Prior to the publication of the Hanly report in September 2003, I organised a conference, attended by many of the delegates, at which I criticised most of its recommendations, particularly those which did not differentiate between acute and elective services. Accident and emergency services must not be removed, especially not as a consequence of the under-investment in primary care, including general practice and community policing, and in the ambulance fleet.

Many committee members will agree, however, that we see matters differently when it comes to elective services. Patients are willing to travel 50 or 60 miles to undergo hip replacement surgery or cancer treatment if they know they will get a better quality of service by undertaking that travel. Patients can make such decisions in the case of planned, non-emergency procedures. The Hanly report's most significant flaw is its failure to recognise this key difference between emergency services and elective procedures which may be planned several weeks or months in advance.

The claim has been made that those who oppose the Hanly approach argue for the provision of cancer treatment services in every acute hospital. Members of the delegation should make it clear that they are concerned primarily with the delivery of safe acute services in the hospitals they represent and that they fully support the regionalisation of certain electives services if such an approach will improve the outcome for patients. This point must be emphasised repeatedly. It has never been the case that those of us deemed "anti-Hanly" are seeking planned services in all hospitals. The issue is the provision of emergency services. My position on this matter has been consistent in that I always contended, even prior to its publication, that the Hanly report fell down amazingly on this point.

I welcome the delegates and commend them on the work they and other hospital action groups have done on this issue. They have stood in the way of the implementation of what would be a total disaster for the health service. In the 18 months since the publication of the Hanly report, many communities have demanded that their access to acute hospital services not only be retained but enhanced. There is significant demand for access to a high-quality health service. I commend the work done by a number of professionals on this campaign, some of whom, including Dr. John Barton, are in attendance today. Important contributions have also been made by Dr. Christine O'Malley of Nenagh General Hospital, Ms Catherine McNamara, a health economist, and Dr. Jim Bradley of Ennis General Hospital. They have done sterling work in showing that, as Dr. Barton observed, the evidence upon which the report is based is the opposite of what it is claimed to be.

We must finally put paid to the myth that small hospitals cannot deliver high-quality health services. I am particularly familiar with Nenagh General Hospital and, like all other small hospitals, it is delivering high-quality services to the community it serves. This is evident from the manner in which communities have stood up for their local hospitals.

I agree with Deputy Twomey that it is not a case of opposing regionalisation. For example, we are actively seeking the provision of quality cancer treatment services in the region previously under the aegis of the Mid-Western Health Board, in which only one cardiologist is currently available. The first priority must be patient outcomes and, though one will find none in the Hanly report, there is much evidence to indicate that smaller hospitals deliver better outcomes for patients and represent better value for money, an issue which must be a priority for all Oireachtas Members.

I urge all committee members to consider the evidence which has been presented to us. That the Hanly report is based on a fundamentally flawed premise presents the question as to why the report has been allowed to become part of Government policy. The implementation of its recommendations will be a disaster for the provision of health care. I have listened carefully to what the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, has said on this matter and it seems clear the report has not gone away. One need only look at the situation in Monaghan to understand the implications of a nationwide implementation of the report. The campaign to oppose the Hanly report continues apace, with groups throughout the country ready to mobilise at a moment's notice if they believe their hospital is threatened.

I sought this meeting for the delegation and I am pleased to welcome its members. I must confess an interest in that I am on the executive of the group.

Will the delegation speak about the Trinity report, which is an academic study of the Hanly recommendations? It includes an outline of certain scenarios which show that patients will have a much lesser chance of getting to hospital within the "golden hour" following, for example, an myocardial infarction or road traffic accident. People must get definitive care when they need it. The application of the principles of the Hanly report in Cavan and Monaghan has left people on the side on the road and some have not survived. If applied to the whole country, people would not be winners.

Mention was made of hospitals and the number of doctors. The EU average is 33 per 10,000 population, but Ireland has 20 doctors per 10,000 people. If one adds the number of non-consultant hospital doctors that the Hanley report states are needed to the number of consultants the report recommends, one gets the magic figure of 33 per 10,000 population — the EU average.

There has been a lack of planning and also negligence, although not necessarily dishonesty, with regard to the Department of Health and Children. The Hanly report has not gone away and continues the centralisation agenda, which is not in the interest of the people.

Deputy McManus mentioned the problem of capacity, which has always been a problem. I would like to hear the delegates' comments in that regard. Lack of funding has also been a constant problem. Ireland spends 6.7% of GDP on health, compared to 9.1% in Canada. However, we have only recently begun inputting a half-decent amount into the health budget.

Almost one-third of ambulance calls in the west, north-west and south-east are not responded to within 20 minutes of the call being made. I would also like to hear delegates' comments on this matter. How will these issues be affected by the Hanly report?

What resources already exist on the ground? Delegates commented that the report mentions taking beds out of Ennis. How will these be replaced? I visited Ennis General Hospital during the recent protest and was struck not by the lack of planning but the lack of funds to run a proper accident and emergency department. We received funds for accident and emergency in Mayo General Hospital and it made a huge difference. Lack of funds was the major problem in Ennis.

My colleagues have covered virtually everything I was going to say, but I welcome the delegates. It was perfectly obvious for years that the EU directive would have to be introduced and that we needed to increase the number of medical students qualifying. However, there has been no increase whatsoever in the number of graduates in Ireland, which is a serious flaw in bringing in such measures.

As Dr. Barton will be aware, we are experiencing grave difficulties in attracting consultants back to this country, which never happened before. Several consultant panels for jobs in Ireland have not had any EU applicants whatsoever. I never thought I would see that happen.

Have delegates factored in the emergence of trained paramedics who will now be involved in pre-hospital emergency care? This will take a while to get going, but it might considerably improve the ambulance service.

Mr. McMahon

Deputy McManus asked about opportunities to speak to the HSE. There are no structures by which we can meet and have discussions with the HSE and put across our points of view. Neither do our local representatives have such a structure. This is our first opportunity to speak to those who represent us and we are delighted. However, there is no other structure in place.

Dr. Nolan will answer the question regarding the Trinity report.

The report emanating from Trinity College, compiled by Teljeur, examines the proportion of the population living within 60 minutes of an accident and emergency unit in the event of acute myocardial infarction/coronary syndrome or a road traffic accident. It shows that things will change for the worse. First, not enough people live sufficiently close to an accident and emergency department. Second, following implementation of the Hanly report, rurally disposed fellow Irish people in particular will be further disadvantaged. The facts are there. The Teljeur report suggests the actual units of population served by a particular region should be much less because of the way in which people are disposed in what is essentially a rural community.

By what political and moral standard do we measure our delivery of health care in this country? It must be equity of care regardless of geographical disposition. A patient of mine recently said that if the vote of a constituent in a rural area equates with that of somebody living beside a major general hospital, why should their lives be worth less? The standard which dictates our standard of health care should be that everyone is treated equally. That costs money, and it costs more money to deliver that standard of care to people who are rurally disposed. We must accept that fact.

As Senator Henry said, we need a lot more doctors. The projection is 800 per annum, but we are currently producing approximately 300 per annum. Such a number requires central funding rather than relying on non-EU students to fund the €26,000 it costs per year.

We have much self-examination to do with regard to the whole process and it is not being highlighted in any way. This is the tragedy of the implementation of the Hanly report. They are poor fools who regard the message of the Hanly report as the only show in town without examining it. We hope for a process whereby the report is discussed and not just implemented. The Hanly report is far from finished, and never let it be said otherwise. If one has ever said it, one should wash out one's mouth.

The second part of the report is in the pipeline, and the first part is not being implemented at this time in the mid-west, Loughlinstown or other areas. It is being implemented in Monaghan and we need an immediate patient impact statement about what is happening there. It would not be tolerated in any other country. It is a disgrace, and we should hang our heads in shame if we do not say it must stop now.

Dr. Barton

I will take some of Deputy McManus's key questions. We should focus on quality and safety in our health care system. If we start to do that, as they are doing in the United States, we will get somewhere. However, we must define quality in health care and we must know what delivers safety before we begin to address the issue. It bothers me that there is not enough emphasis on this. In fact, it should be wholly about that. I remain concerned that the concepts which drove the Hanly report still exist quietly in the background within the people who run the Department of Health and Children and the health service. Many people believe in these concepts.

One of the main reasons for the Hanly report is financial. The drive behind those concepts was that one cannot have 37 acute care hospitals in the country and be able to provide the funds to keep them all open. That is the driving concept and creates much difficulty for me as a medical doctor working in a smaller general hospital. We cannot get away from financial concerns and the trade-offs that must ultimately be made. However, the drive behind the concept was financial. That issue has arisen since the original Fitzgerald report. How will we finance our acute hospital services? The vast bulk of people in our hospitals are older people. As a medical professional working in a small hospital, I met 92 year-old patients who, if the Hanly report was implemented, would end up in University College Hospital Galway, more than 50 miles away from their relatives. It seems wrong that we should produce a report that would result in these people being moved far away from their homes. We need to have treatment as close to home as possible, because the bulk of the people that need treatment are older people. How can we do that and keep smaller hospitals open? We must have proper facilities to look after patients. They need to be treated in appropriate surroundings and with appropriate equipment, so that a physician can investigate that patient properly. If we practice the appropriate evidence based care we will get a good outcome for the patient, no matter what the size of the hospital.

We know we cannot do everything in small hospitals, such as brain surgery. That is specialised care and we have no objection to that. However, 95% of patients that come through hospital doors can be given the appropriate facilities and staff in smaller general hospitals. As the population gets older, we will need to have these acute care services provided locally. It is absolutely crucial. With advances in information technology, this can be done. Tele-medicine and tele-health will be a crucial part of how we deliver quality and safety. This is particularly the case for a system that is short of highly qualified staff. This is already being done in the US and in Scotland. There is no reason we should not do it here. Working in Portiuncula Hospital, I often feel it would be nice to speak to a colleague in Galway on the television about the care of a patient in my hospital. This can be done if we focus on it. Information technology, such as decision based support tools, will assist the people who are caring for patients and can make a dramatic impact on providing quality care. Much more money needs to be spent on information technology.

In Portiuncula Hospital, we were fascinated to receive a request from University College Hospital Galway asking that we train their medical students. The hospital was aware that more trained doctors were needed in the health service. These students cannot be trained properly in specialised hospitals — they need general training, which can easily take place in smaller acute hospitals. When medical students in Ireland and the UK are asked how they feel about their education in smaller hospitals, our hospitals achieve a higher score than the university hospital. It is therefore crucial that we keep the smaller hospitals open. We will have to integrate the primary care sector with the secondary care sector. If we do not do that, we will never have the excellent health service we all want. It is very frustrating that our primary care service has virtually no integration with secondary care. Some health maintenance organisations in the US have a strategy for close integration between primary and secondary care. Once we do that here, we will begin to deliver a quality health service.

A report from the UK has shown that the cost of providing two ambulances equates with the cost of looking after one ward. Ambulances cost much money to run and to service. Under the Hanly report, a patient suffering a heart attack in Athlone, 15 miles from Portiuncula Hospital, would be taken to University College Hospital Galway, bypassing our hospital. That patient would be cared for in the back of an ambulance by a paramedic. Would it not be better for that patient to be treated in Portiuncula Hospital by a physician with 20 years training in heart disease? It is nonsense to assume that paramedics can provide a service that equates with delivery of an acute care service in a local hospital. A recent report from Canada shows that paramedics providing intubation, ventilation and resuscitation of patients, does not improve the mortality of the patient that has had a heart attack. Defibrillation of the patient as soon as possible is what produces less mortality. There is therefore a limit to what paramedics can do. That is not to say we should not have paramedics. However, there is evidence to suggest that the longer one delays in getting a trauma victim to the hospital, the mortality increases. We need to look closely at the medical research there before we decide that this is the way to go. With due respect, patients being treated by paramedics in ambulances on bigger and wider roads will not solve our problems.

The witnesses here today have made a fair and balanced presentation. The Hanly report will have serious repercussions for the west of Ireland. Loop Head is roughly 60 miles from Ennis, yet it is expected that patients who suffer a heart attack in Loop Head or Carrigaholt will be brought beyond Ennis General Hospital to Limerick Regional Hospital. That is not on. Eight consultants in Ennis sent an open letter to the Taoiseach and the Minister stating that the conditions in Ennis General Hospital are unsafe. That is proof that we need an immediate upgrade of Ennis General Hospital. We must retain the small hospitals. Nobody opposes a centre of excellence. However, small satellite hospitals, such as those at Portiuncula, Ennis and Nenagh, must work with it.

There is a fine hospital in Ennis. All we want is an upgrade. We need a CAT scanner, two radiologists and two surgeons. That will not break the bank. Ennis General Hospital can be cost effective. It can provide a service to the people of Clare that they need and that they should receive as of right. The 103,000 people living in County Clare need a health service of which they can be proud. It is the same in any other part of the country.

As I told the former Minister, the Hanly report should be sent to landfill or incinerated because it is worthless. The Hanly report took no cognisance of what the consultants had to say. There are two gentlemen present today who deal with the general public on a daily basis and who know what people and patients want.

I am not a member of this committee, and I thank the Chairman for allowing me to speak, but I ask it to recommend to the Minister, the Taoiseach and the Government that the Hanly report be scrapped forthwith and that we maintain our small hospitals as acute medical and surgical units.

I also welcome the deputations. I will be brief and confine my contribution to some of the issues that were raised in a forthright way.

All members of the committee would agree with the representatives' comments about medical students and the current danger of not having enough doctors. Some months ago the committee produced a report on that issue, about which we are all concerned.

On the European working time directive, I strongly believe that the current hours non-consultant hospital doctors work are unsafe and must be improved. They are unsafe not just for the doctors but also for the patients, who are the most important people in the health service. The general thrust of the Hanly report is that the health care service in hospitals will move from being consultant-led to being consultant-provided. Would the delegation, as a group, be in favour or opposed to that?

Regarding the mid-west, I understand the local implementation groups are not working at present. Would the representatives explain why they are not working? Are they of the opinion that the groups may work at some stage or are they of the view that they should never work?

I will try to answer some of Dr. Devins's questions. First, the local implementation group in the former Mid-Western Health Board is not working because of a dispute on enterprise liability and problems the Department of Health and Children shares with the Medical Defence Union on that issue. It is part of a consultant boycotting of co-operation. It is nothing to do with us.

That was my point. If the dispute is resolved shortly, which I hope will be the case, and if the INCA and the IMO decide to proceed, will those groups start working?

Regardless of whether they do, the central issue is one of democratic responsibility and representation. If that group were to listen to what the people, via their representatives, had brought to its attention, namely, that the elected members of the former Mid-Western Health Board voted to reject the Hanly report in its current form, there would be nothing to discuss.

On the second point about increasing the number of medical students, this is common ground. It is part of the infrastructural problem. We do not have enough doctors. We have been producing 300 new doctors per year for the past 25 years, despite a population explosion and greater health needs, when we should be producing 800. However, Hanly proposes a cut in the number of training positions and a reduction in the number of non-consultant hospital doctors. How are we going to produce them? What was on Mr. Hanly's mind?

Training is very important. It is driving some of these reforms. Professor Arthur Tanner of the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland——

I am sorry to interrupt Dr. Nolan but I do not think Hanly suggested that. A considerable number of NCHD posts are not training posts.

The end result of the Hanly reforms will be a halving of the NCHD posts——

Many of those are surplus posts.

——and all those posts will be training posts only.

I thought Hanly called for an additional 1,700 consultant posts.

He did but he must call for four times the number of existing posts, not twice the number.

We should start with an additional 1,700.

We are discussing the Hanly report, which recommends a doubling of consultant posts. However, what I am bringing to the attention of members is the view of a professor of the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland that we need four times, not twice, the number of posts. There is a lack of accountability and responsibility in the Hanly report that is not put in the public domain.

Who said we need four times the number?

It was stated by Professor Niall O'Higgins, President of the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, in his recent charter day address. Part of the problem is that this information is not getting to the members of the committee, which is not their fault.

I sat on the Hanly committee and I am aware that Dr. Nolan's own college, the Irish College of General Practitioners, was very well represented. The IMO was represented in terms of consultants and junior doctors. The entire Hanly committee was top heavy with medics. What does Dr. Nolan say to that?

First, the ICGP was not heavily represented. It increasingly, but unsuccessfully, sought to have the terms of reference of the Hanly report broadened. That is in print; I can give the Senator the reference.

I want to comment on that.

I will return to the Senator.

Second, the IMO consultant committee produced a ten-point plan relating to facilitation and implementation of the Hanly report and the first point related to a patient impact statement on the pilot areas. That has not materialised. It proposed putting in place the personnel and infrastructure that would facilitate safe delivery of the recommendations in the Hanly report. That was not put in place.

I want to return to the training aspect. In December of last year Professor Arthur Tanner, whom the members will be aware was on the task force, said that the smaller hospitals must remain open to do many of the routine surgical procedures. We have no problem with that. We are talking about gall bladder, hernia, varicose veins, appendicitis and similar operations. Professor Tanner was called in by the Minister for Health and Children and reprimanded because of that statement. He was told he could not say what he said because it was anti-Hanly.

On 5 March, the British Medical Journal carried a report from surgeons in training which stated that, as a result of the EWTD, they were not getting enough exposure in theatres, out-patient clinics and so on. Their actual training was being interfered with by the EWTD.

I am glad Dr. Nolan came before the committee today because heretofore all I read about was the anti-Hanly message from the media. I agree with much of what he said, particularly in regard to training. I also agree with Dr. Barton.

I sat on the Medical Council for five years and I have visited every major, medium and small hospital in the country. It is true that students and junior doctors prefer smaller local hospitals where they say the training is far superior because they get better, one-to-one training in a friendlier atmosphere. They also build up a rapport with their trainer and with patients. I would have thought it was a given that if a cardiac patient in the scenario similar to that Dr. Barton outlined was travelling from Athlone to Galway to what would eventually be described as a centre of excellence — and that patient was in need of urgent care — he or she should not bypass Ballinasloe Hospital, which would have the required expertise. I could not stand over a report such as that compiled by Hanly or a Government stating that the patient in question should be brought on to a centre of excellence. I do not believe that would ever happen. Why does Dr. Barton say it would happen?

That is what is happening in Monaghan.

The situation in Monaghan is, as Ms O'Connor indicated, very different. Were we talking about maternity services in Monaghan? In any event, why does Dr. Barton believe that would happen?

Dr. Barton

Approximately two days after the Hanly report was published I found myself, unwittingly in some sense, on a programme with Gerry Ryan. One of my colleagues who helped draw up the Hanly report, a man I respect enormously for the work he has done in health care, was pressed by Gerry Ryan to indicate what will be the status of Portiuncula Hospital when the Hanly report is implemented and the physician said that it would be a local hospital. The definition of a local hospital under the Hanly report is one which does not provide acute, emergent or urgent care but which provides chronic care and carries out minor surgical procedures. If one looks at the map used by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland in terms of surgical service delivery, it also indicates that Portiuncula Hospital will not be providing any acute surgical service. Therefore, a patient in Athlone who suffers heart attack would not have the facilities in a local hospital to be treated for that heart attack. He or she would have to go to the major centre and that would be to the disadvantage of some patients. Those are the facts of the Hanly report.

Under Hanly, only areas with a population of 350,000 can have an acute care hospital. The report indicated that an acute care hospital might — I stress the word "might" — be able to be provided in areas with a population of 250,000. That would mean that local general hospitals such as those at Castlebar or Letterkenny would become local general hospitals.

Portiuncula Hospital, which serves a population of approximately 100,000 people, is to become a local hospital, providing no acute care. Should I not become upset when I see old people who need acute care being unable to get that care in my hospital, where I run a cardiac rehabilitation service and a diagnostic service for heart patients and where my geriatrician colleague is providing excellent services for older people who fall and hurt themselves? The Hanly report proposes that we would not have that service.

People wonder why I get angry, upset and passionate about this issue. I am here today because this report is fundamentally flawed. It was poorly put together and not adequately researched. One of the major problems in the health care service is that we do not appear to have the people required to do the research to deliver the services that our people deserve. The Hanly report is a disaster as far as I am concerned.

There are some positive aspects to the Hanly report which I mention in my brief report. I have no difficulty with the regionalisation of care, the increase in the numbers of consultants, the fact that local hospitals would have enhanced facilities and that diagnostic facilities would be improved but downgrading secondary care hospitals such as Portiuncula, Roscommon, Ennis and Nenagh is wrong. It is inconceivable that people could draw up a report to make these hospitals local hospitals providing no acute care service. It is tragic. What more can I say?

Mr. McMahon

Dr. Barton is obviously emotional about his hospital. I became angry when reference was made to Monaghan being different and to maternity services because the 12 cases I mentioned which we have logged — there are many others we have not logged because we have no specific details on them — involved adults who suffered either trauma or heart attacks. One of the cases that received national media attention involved a person who was 400 yards from the door of Monaghan Hospital with two consultant physicians and a team of SHOs on duty. The ambulance was called, it travelled 400 yards from the hospital, collected a patient suffering a heart attack and took him to Cavan Hospital during which time he suffered a second heart attack and died. That makes us angry and such cases are happening in Monaghan. We have had 12 such cases.

Under Hanly, it is proposed to take that facility away from us for good. It will happen on 1 July this year because everything is now in place to do that. That makes us angry and fearful because if someone is living, as I am, six miles further north from Cavan, they have an even slighter chance of getting to Cavan Hospital if they were to suffer a heart attack. There is a further ten miles to travel before one reaches the Border. What about the people living there? What chance do they have of getting to Cavan if they suffer trauma or a heart attack? We are living in fear and the people living in areas with hospitals similar to Monaghan should be living in fear also because the train is coming down the line towards them. This issue is dear to our hearts and it makes us very angry that this type of measure is allowed to take place. Dr. Nolan called for a patient impact statement on what is happening in Monaghan. What is happening in Monaghan is a disgrace but the rest of the country must wake up because it will happen in those areas also. As Deputy Twomey said, we are not demanding brain surgery facilities or other major surgical facilities. We want emergency services in these small hospitals. Dr. Barton said they can be provided safely.

Deputy McManus talked about access and quality. Access can be provided with safety and quality. We hate the term "centre of excellence" being applied to just one hospital in a region. All our hospitals should be centres of excellence. We can have major hospitals and smaller hospitals but they should all be centres of excellence because we want a quality service provided in all of them. All we want in small hospitals is acute basic emergency services so that when people suddenly become ill, they can go to their local hospital for help and will not be carted off in an ambulance to a hospital 40, 50 or 60 miles away to get that help. That makes us very emotional.

We have to conclude in approximately 15 minutes but a number of members, including Senator O'Meara and Deputies Twomey and Cowley, wish to contribute.

On the point Senator Feeney raised about the task force, it came to my attention around the time the task force report was published that its members had visited Nenagh General Hospital, which is welcome, but the views presented to them were never represented in the final report. In fact, there is a question as to whether that information ever got to the full membership of the task force. As Senator Feeney was a member of the task force, we might talk about that aspect in future. That is one example of the way the views of small hospitals were not represented.

Small hospitals were not represented on the task force and it has always been our view that the driving force behind this policy framework, which dates back to the 1960s, has come from the Dublin-based medical hierarchy, so to speak, and part of the thinking of that hierarchy is that the sooner we get rid of small hospitals the better. Our fight is on behalf of small hospitals and, as Dr. Barton and Mr. McMahon said — I am sure Senator Feeney and other members, particularly those with medical backgrounds, know this — small hospitals can deliver a quality service, sometimes against the odds. They operate in a context which says that quality service cannot be obtained in a small hospital. That is simply not true. The people who live in those communities know that is not true. People are travelling from Limerick to attend Nenagh Hospital, which speaks volumes.

Dr. Barton interpreted the Hanly report correctly in that it referred to radically downgrading a number of accident and emergency departments throughout the country. It is clear from the report that accident and emergency services would be regionalised to what it called acute trauma units in the regional hospitals, with general and local hospitals providing minor injury units only. That is a significant decrease in the level of service being provided in many accident and emergency departments. There can be no other interpretation of the Hanly report. It is clear that is what is intended.

Patients in many areas have to travel 60 or 70 miles for what we now consider to be accident and emergency services. The level of service available in an acute trauma unit — I worked in such a unit — is excellent but patients must get to the unit alive in order to benefit from the service. We are talking about the balance between keeping these patients alive until they get to these units and providing them with best service possible. We cannot close accident and emergency departments in many of the hospitals we are discussing because they keep patients alive.

Trojan work has been done in some of our trauma units throughout the country. It is a wonder to be in one of those units, particularly when a major trauma case comes into a level one trauma unit such as that at Cork University Hospital. It is the only time one will ever see something similar to what occurs on the television programme "ER" in this country but the patient must get to the unit alive. We cannot provide those facilities throughout the country but at the same time we cannot close accident and emergency departments because patients will not reach the level one trauma units alive, at least not until such time as we have an air ambulance service.

Reference was made to the fact that many consultants and doctors were involved in the Hanly report. That is the case but there is no doubt that the report was skewed towards major urban hospitals such as those in Cork and Dublin. Many of the people involved in the report are Dublin and Cork based consultants, although I am not making any disparaging remarks about them. If I was a GP or a consultant based in Dublin, I would probably reorganise the health services in a totally different way than would be the case if I lived in Waterford or Clonmel. We have to examine the services on a local and regional basis but where one lives will influence the way one views the development of these services. There was not enough representation on the Hanly committee of many of the hospitals about which we are talking. The report was skewed very much towards Dublin hospitals.

There is a perception that doctors and consultants in those hospitals see them as better and more specialised than others throughout the country but it must be borne in mind that 80% of the work done at St. Vincent's Hospital is exactly the same as the work done in Ennis Hospital and Nenagh General Hospital. An appendix case in St. Vincent's Hospital is as complicated as an appendix case in Nenagh General Hospital. A case of pneumonia in Nenagh General Hospital is the same that in a case at St. Vincent's Hospital. Specialised services, such as cancer treatment and respiratory and endocrinology services, which are not provided at Nenagh General Hospital are provided at St. Vincent's Hospital. However, we must keep in mind the fact that up to 70% of the procedures done in all hospitals are exactly the same, regardless of whether one is talking about a major teaching hospital or a small local hospital.

We must get the point across that these hospitals can deal with what we call, in medical terms, "the nuts and bolts" of medicine, the common ailments about which we are taught. It is only when we get to more complex issues that we need to regionalise or even nationalise the services. Much of that was missed in the Hanly report but I do not blame the consultants involved. Dublin and Cork were over-represented and they were simply pushing forward their views on this area.

The crux of the problem is that we are focusing on secondary care services when, as other members have stated, the reality is that we have neglected primary care services. They referred to manpower crises in terms of a lack of doctors. We know there is a problem with nurses and, by running down our primary services and not investing in primary care, we are paying the price of that with an increased workload going through the acute hospital sector with which it is unable to deal.

Some interesting points have been made. It is unfortunate that we do not have more time because I would like to hear more of Senator Feeney's views on what happened when she was a member of the Hanly committee. I am not saying anything about the Senator but it would be interesting to hear the comments that were passed back and forth when she sat on that committee and the way decisions were made. I am aware that members of the Irish College of General Practitioners and members of the Irish Medical Organisation were unhappy with the final published document. I understand they added caveats to it that were not accepted before the report was published but Senator Feeney would know more about that than I do.

This has been a good presentation because it brought up many important issues that would not have been raised otherwise. In a democracy there must be room for openness and transparency but the problem is that the primary care sector in particular did not have an input into the Hanly report.

When the Hanly report was imminent, I got some feedback about what it might contain. I was asked by RTE to comment on it and I said the report's recommendations would fail because I could not believe, from what I had heard, that the Department would change course and invest moneys in the health service that it had not previously invested. It had commissioned many reports, including the Fitzgerald report and others, and to me the Hanly report was more of the same.

I had heard that the Hanly report referred to the need for more beds. The Department was not prepared to put money towards the 3,000 beds that were needed, so how would that happen under Hanly? The Department did not put money into the medical schools to allow for more doctors so how was Hanly going to cope with the need for more doctors? In other words, there was a credibility gap as regards the Department providing the money. Even if the money was available, how did the Department intend to implement the Hanly recommendations? These reports appeared to be a deliberate attempt to discredit the Hanly report before it was even published and ensure it would never work. Even if the money was available, and it has been proven that the Department was not prepared to put money into the system, the consultant contracts would have had to be renegotiated. That is no small task, as the Minister discovered.

Supporting staff would have had to have their contracts renegotiated because they would have to support the new consultants. The medical schools did not have the output to allow those consultants be employed and there were deadlines involved. This report was a falsity from the start and it calls into question the ethos in the Department of Health and Children and that of the Ministers who were supposed to stand over it but did not do so. The Hanly report is just another example of the nursing home report.

We are all in favour of a consultant-led system but where are the consultants needed to address the problem of the waiting lists in local hospitals? There is a waiting list of 1,000 people in the area of urology. The Hollywood report is another example of decentralisation. I take Deputy Twomey's point that people from the centralist areas are sitting on these committees and driving forward this agenda. Are they being sincere in saying they want a consultant-led service, which we all want? The Hanly report was a total overkill, so to speak, because it referred to having seven specialists in each department when the Department of Health and Children was not even prepared to put consultants into local hospitals or provide radiotherapy services for people in the north west. For the past two years, there has not been even a visiting service from St. Luke's Hospital. People have to travel to Dublin for that service. The Department is taking a skewed view. If it is in the know about what is happening, it is being criminal. If it is not in the know, which it should be, it is downright negligent. That is the bottom line.

People say that if we are criticising Hanly, we should come up with an alternative. The alternative is to support the local services. If Tesco can open supermarkets throughout the country, why can the Department of Health and Children not provide services for people instead of trying to remove them? There has been an obvious back-track with regard to Ennis General Hospital and Monaghan Hospital, and long may that continue, but people need a service. The alternative is to support the existing hospitals and ensure we have the EU average in terms of the number of doctors and hospitals, which is necessary. The result of this meeting should be that the committee would decide to throw out the Hanly report.

I have a question for Mr. McMahon. What was said about 1 July? Is he going "off blue light" again on 1 July?

Mr. McMahon

No. By 1 July all surgery in Monaghan will be reduced to 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday to Friday with SHOs and consultants coming across from Cavan on a daily basis. They will start their operation work at 10 a.m. and finish at 3 p.m. in the afternoon. It appears that theatre nurses have reached a pay deal with the Health Service Executive to the effect that they will only work from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday to Friday. Three weeks after they removed the surgical services across the Border in the South Tyrone Hospital in Dungannon, the College of Physicians moved in and said it was unsafe to have acute and emergency medicine there. We feel that the same scenario will take place in Monaghan after 1 July. The on-call status for medicine was restored in January but we fear it will be under serious threat again by 1 July.

Ms O’Connor

I wanted to answer a question asked by Deputy McManus on maternity care. Briefly, on the issue of costs, one of the biggest myths in Hanly is that small hospitals cost more to run. In fact, research shows the opposite is the case. We do not have costly duplication of services because we lack capacity to care for the sick in our society. That is evident from the trolley population. It is important to point out, for example, that in Ennis General Hospital, patient care costs 66% of what it costs to provide the same service in Limerick. Research shows that costs increase above 400 beds. Hanly would reduce all hospitals to a size that is uneconomic, both the bigger and smaller hospitals. It is not cost-effective to run 1,000 bed hospitals. In the United States, which has a very competitive health care environment, 200 beds is the average hospital size.

In regard to maternity care, we must examine whether there is a possible conflict between access to local care and high quality care and if it can be dealt with. We are aware that the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has set certain volume requirements in terms of keeping up members' skills. Childbirth is a very specialised area and abnormal births have also to be taken into account. The majority of women, 85% to 90%, left to labour at their own pace will have a normal birth. Obstetricians consider that 1,000 births per annum in any unit is the minimum required for them to keep up their skills.

To address this problem we could look at what has been done in Britain. Normal birth is the specialty of midwives and one of the solutions we need to look at is midwife-led units. A midwife-led unit recently opened in Cavan General Hospital and one is also in preparation in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. The north east is leading the way there. Midwife-led units are well established on the Continent. They are particularly well established in Britain and a large body of research exists to testify to their safety and high quality.

Mr. McNamara

There is one small point of which I wish to inform the committee. I referred to Ennis which has 88 beds and where 26 extra beds were provided giving 114% occupancy. Three to five death-threatening cases each week present in the accident and emergency unit. The committee should recommend to the Department of Health and Children that an inspection of every hospital that is affected would be carried out. If a hospital is redundant and not providing a service, I have no problem with closing it, but Ennis and most of the other hospitals I have phoned around are stretched to the limit in trying to cater for their communities.

Mr. McMahon

This is a wide-ranging area of discussion and we did not get an opportunity to develop a number of points. We hope committee members will read the literature we have supplied to them which contains references to other research we have done. Hanly should be revisited and this whole scenario should be looked at again. People from all areas of the country should have an opportunity to make an input into the type of reforms that will be introduced.

We appreciate the fact that we have been given an opportunity to appear before the committee to put forward our case. We thank the Chairman and committee members. We hope that we can continue to have some input into the reform of hospital services in a similar kind of forum in the future.

I thank Mr. McMahon and the group for appearing before the committee and outlining their main reasons for opposing the report. The exchange has been most informative.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.15 p.m. and adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 12 April 2005.

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