I welcome the witnesses before the committee. Presentations will be made by a number of representative groups on the present and future needs of women's support services. I welcome Ms Bernadette Byrne, assistant manager of Mayo Women's Support Services; Ms Ruth MacNeely, co-ordinator of Mayo Rape Crisis Centre; Ms Fiona Neary, executive director of the Rape Crisis Network; and Ms Sharon O'Halloran, director of the National Network of Women's Refuges and Support Services.
Support Services for Women: Presentation.
Ms Fiona Neary
I thank the Chairman, as well as the Deputies and Senators present. We welcome the opportunity to very briefly present the current and future needs of support services in the violence against women sector. I represent the Rape Crisis Network, which is the representative body for the 16 rape crisis centres in Ireland. I will give a brief national overview and my colleagues will provide some examples of the effect on the ground of this national situation. The local examples to be provided by my colleagues are very relevant to the national picture for front-line services.
The national organisations working to address pervasive violence against women in Ireland propose an immediate increase of €7 million in funding towards the dedicated front-line services responding to women and their children who have experienced multiple forms of violence. The NGO representatives on a national steering committee have made proposals towards alleviating the worst effects of the current funding crisis facing rape crisis, refuge and support services. These include an increase in current spending for dedicated front-line responders in the region of €7 million, which should be ringfenced for that specific cause.
The nature of current funding arrangements as experienced by front-line service providers has been researched and detailed as having inconsistent and incoherent approaches from statutory funders at the national, regional and local level. Incoherent funding arrangements translate into time and resource-consuming efforts to secure funding by front-line services. The short-term and insecure nature of the funding means that services cannot plan into the future despite continual increases in demand on services being experienced. Widespread, consistent and persistent underfunding is also evident, along with negative experiences of negotiating funding with statutory funders. Persistent underdeveloped responses to violence against women in all its forms arise from the consistent funding crisis within the sector.
As a result of the ad hoc approach by the State towards funding, the NGOs on the national steering committee on violence against women have lobbied for and secured the set-up of an interdepartmental committee to address the funding arrangements. The outcome will be a more streamlined approach to funding front-line services. Therefore, the increase in funding to the sector could not be more timely, given that the ad hoc administration of the funding is being resolved.
We particularly welcome the opportunity to address this committee as it is the Department of Health and Children which shoulders most responsibility for funding front-line services. The budget for all front-line services from the health sector has effectively remained capped since 2002. This means that all refuges, rape crisis centres and support services have received the same level of funding in the period 2002 to 2005, inclusive. As everyone here will appreciate, this means that the funding available to the sector is now going backwards at a time when increasing awareness of domestic, sexual and other forms of violence against women is becoming apparent. This impacts upon our services in the form of increasing demand.
As a direct result of this funding cap, a substantial increase is required to maintain existing levels of service delivery without any development of services. In other words, a substantial rise in funding is needed just to stand still. Front-line services are not near the optimum level of services required to respond to violence against women. The reason this is so important, leaving aside the fact that the women affected cannot themselves access services, is the high cost to the State of the ineffective and unplanned response, as well as the high cost of under-funding our services.
Violence against women imposes a very significant cost on the State. In particular, violence results in significant costs to the health and justice systems. Research in the UK in 2004 revealed that domestic violence alone cost that country £23 billion sterling per year. The cost to the criminal justice system alone was estimated at £1 billion sterling. In the UK, it is estimated that the cost of investigating one domestic homicide is in the region of £1 million sterling. In the US, approximately 12% of mental health costs are spent on crime victims, with rape being the most costly of crimes to its victims.
An example of the cost of underfunding, relating to sexual violence, is that it is highly likely that survivors of sexual violence who cannot access appropriate support, such as a rape crisis centre, approach other more costly parts of the Irish health and social services sector. A survivor of sexual violence experiencing invasive symptoms is likely to make extensive and long-term demands on primary care and mental health resources.
We are lucky in Ireland that statistics are available to back up this position. Of adult Irish survivors of sexual violence, one in six has been an inpatient in a psychiatric hospital. This is in contrast to one in 46 from the non-abused population. Half of sexual violence survivors will be prescribed anti-depressant medication, compared with 9% of the non-abused population. With regard to anxiety, 37% of adult survivors will receive medication for the condition compared with 7% of the non-abused population. The inaccessibility of our services, which act as an early intervention, is costing the State more further down the line.
By consistently under-resourcing specialist early intervention front-line services, the State is increasing demands on other more costly aspects of the health and community budget. As these agencies are not equipped to deal with the real issue of sexual violence, either in childhood or adult life, symptoms such as depression, anxiety, alcoholism, homelessness and drug addiction are managed, but the root problems of sexual and domestic violence remain unaddressed.
The trauma of sexual violence has been proven to be less severe, less of a long-term problem and less disruptive to a person's life when addressed through immediate support and counselling. Early intervention has been demonstrated to reduce the immediate and long-term effects of trauma, thus reducing the cost to the State. According to the first National Rape Crisis Statistics, a copy of which we have given to each member of the committee, of those who reported sexual violence in adult life, 22% reported sexual violence by a male partner or ex-partner. This demonstrates the cross-cutting nature of forms of violence against women.
Underfunding means front-line services remain inaccessible to many who have been victimised. We know, from Irish and international data, that those who have been previously victimised are most likely to experience revictimisation, including revictimisation by a partner or ex-partner. Thus, reaching and supporting those who have been victimised provides a highly effective, preventative, cost-saving intervention and is the best way to spend money when under-resourced.
Underfunding makes our services even more inaccessible to people with disabilities whom we know to be especially vulnerable to victimisation. The Irish State is not saving money by under-resourcing front-line violence against women services. It can be argued that such underfunding is a false economy which is costing the Irish taxpayer extensively. Such costs to the State can be reduced by nationally planned and coherently delivered early intervention strategies from appropriately funded professional front-line services. The effective capping of funding to the violence against women sector since 2002 necessitates an immediate injection of funding to prevent the further erosion of vital services. At a time when more women are coming forward and trying to contact services, those same services are effectively cutting back in their service delivery.
Violence against women in Ireland includes domestic violence, rape and sexual assault, prostitution and associated trafficking, and pornography. Currently, in the Republic there are approximately 40 locally-based responses to domestic violence and 16 rape crisis centres. To maximise coherent, planned service delivery, more than 95% of these agencies are either members of or pursuing membership of the two national networks represented here today by me and my colleague, Ms Sharon O'Halloran. Other organisations work to address specific aspects of violence against women, including Ruhama, which works on the issue of prostitution, and Pavee Point, which works to address violence against Traveller women.
In June 2004, the NGOs on the national steering committee sought to identify the level of direct State funding received by front-line service providers in 2003 by surveying members of national networks and other front-line service providers. A total of 51 front-line service providers responded. The findings were stark. Three quarters of all front-line service providers indicated that there was no change to the level of funding they received in 2003 compared with the previous year. The total amount of direct State funding to these organisations was just over €12 million. The vast amount of this stems from the Department of Health and Children. Most refuges receive local authority section 10 funding. Of the 17 refuges that responded, 13 indicated that the proportion of funding received from this source amounted to 26% of their direct State funding. Funding arrangements with local statutory sources is of prime importance to front-line service providers, with 95% of all State funding to rape crisis centres channelled through health boards.
The level of funding currently received can best be described as severely inadequate to meet the current needs of women and their children experiencing violence through accessible, supportive and effective front-line responses. The sector has experienced an effective capping of funding since 2002, giving rise to a funding crisis within the sector in 2005. At the same time as services are experiencing a funding freeze, they are also expected to respond to an increase in demand for the range of services now required. The increase in demand from the newer immigrant communities, for example, poses an entirely new challenge to service providers who are attempting to make cutback resources go even further. It can be seen from the National Rape Crisis Statistics that a significant percentage of contact was made by refugees and asylum seekers who had experienced severe sexual violence, often at the hands of the security forces in their country of origin.
This situation remaines the same as of July 2005. There has been no increase in funding for four years and there is no reason to believe that an increase is on the cards for 2006. To date the NGOs on the national steering committee have received no signal from the Minister for Health and Children that an increase in funding will be sought and ringfenced for front-line violence against women agencies for 2006. As I have signalled, a substantial increase in funding is now required simply to maintain existing levels of service delivery. Front-line services are a long way from optimal services required to respond to the real needs of women and their children experiencing multiple forms of violence in Ireland.
We thank the committee for the opportunity to bring the current and future needs of women's support services in the violence against women sector to its attention. My colleagues will now give some examples of how this affects the organisations working on the ground.
Ms Bernadette Byrne
I am from Mayo Women's Support Services. Ms Ruth MacNeely and I will try to highlight exactly what it means for women when funding is so scarce.
Mayo Women's Support Services, MWSS and Mayo Rape Crisis Centre, MRCC, were set up in 1994. Both services operate in a largely rural community and are the front-line services in the county working on the issue of violence against women. The services are separate and unique but frequently work together and, in terms of prevention, have a strong position with regard to families and contact and support being available over a long period of time. We provide an outreach service which must be a core element of a rural service to ensure accessibility for all women. At present MRCC is unable to provide such a service because of continuing lack of resources for the centre. All appointments, therefore, are at the centre in Castlebar. This means that a woman from north Mayo may have to travel up to 80 miles to access the service. For women who are dependent on public transport, it is a much more difficult journey, in many cases a secret trip that nobody else knows about, with all the implications for the women concerned.
Crisis accommodation is a continuing need. Over the past 12 months MWSS has seen an increase in the numbers of women and children seeking refuge. MWSS does not provide 24-hour cover owing to lack of resources. In the last six months of 2004 the service provided 800 bed nights at its centre.
In keeping with other refuges we receive section 10 funding for the maintenance and upkeep of accommodation. The Government's homeless strategy recommends that section 10 funding should be paid on availability of bed spaces. MWSS is currently underfunded by at least 50% as it only receives funding for two women and four children. The reality is that for 95% of the time it provides accommodation for five women and up to 14 children.
Mayo Rape Crisis Centre has great difficulty in accessing safe accommodation for women using its services. Safe accommodation is vital in terms of young women who live in homes where abuse is taking place. Their options are limited and recent changes in the rent allowance system makes it difficult to access independent accommodation. As a result MRCC consistently sees young women who have come from the State care system. They find themselves displaced and vulnerable and end up in relationships that in some cases are abusive, just as a means of having a roof over their heads.
As stated earlier, MWSS was set up in 1994 and it was not until 2004 that it received State funding for a part-time child care worker. This funding comes from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform under the equal opportunities child care programme and was allocated on the basis of allowing women back into education or the workforce. While this is a positive initiative, it has nothing to do with the therapeutic needs that children may have.
In 2003 MWSS worked with women who were responsible for 515 children, that is 515 children directly affected in some way by violence and abuse in their homes. This week at the MRCC there are 45 clients using the service and between them they have approximately 50 children under the age of 18. In our efforts to address the appalling lack of recognition of the effects on children of living with domestic violence and their right to supports, we are currently working with Trinity College researching and identifying support needs of children.
Regarding the preventative aspect of services for future generations of children, both services work with women in the long term and often into the next generation. Mothers, in particular, getting help make all the difference to their sons and daughters. This point cannot be adequately emphasised. In the past ten years, those services have engaged at local level and have raised awareness generally and, in specific terms, provided workshops to statutory, voluntary and community groups. We are seriously hampered by the lack of resources to continue this work. For example, the western rape crisis centres developed a programme specifically for secondary schools but they have been unable to deliver it. We must always be aware and respond appropriately to the different groups of women, such as, for example, those who are refugees and asylum seekers, those from the Traveller community and those with disabilities who have particular additional obstacles to overcome in trying to access appropriate supports.
We ask that the knowledge and expertise garnered at local level be taken on board. This knowledge comes from the women who, with great courage, have told their stories. We owe it to them to listen and to act.
Ms Ruth MacNeely
The lack of funding has meant, in respect of Mayo rape crisis centres specifically, that there has been no increase in staff since 1997. The number of full-time workers remains static at three. The demand on the service has increased annually. The waiting list, which was 15, is down to 12 ,and the waiting period is up to six months for a service. A further outcome, because of the lack of the funding, is that we have been unable to develop a proper crisis response which should be fundamental to all rape crisis and domestic violence services. The hospital and the local Garda authorities put in place protocols for those presenting at the hospital or at the Garda station in the event of a sexual assault. However, we cannot provide cover to attend the hospital or a Garda station and the effect of this is to reduce the efficacy of the whole system in addressing crime.
In regard to the demand on the service in terms of the provision of counselling and also, more recently, the accompaniment and advocacy work of the centre, local statistics for 2004 indicate that the centre has benefited from the awareness raising campaign and the improvement in the Garda response. In previous years, the number of people who reported to the Garda was between 2% and 10%. in 2004, the number who reported increased to 25%. The demands on the service and how we respond, accompany people and help them through their experience are outside a counselling response. That is a huge demand on our service.
A consistent helpline is part of a crisis response and its importance cannot be adequately emphasised. It is an absolute lifeline to those women in crisis or to those who need ongoing support. If a woman is telephoning in a distressed state and gets through to an answering machine, this can set her back. It takes enormous courage to make that first call and it is crucial that somebody is at the other end of the telephone. It can make the difference between coming into a centre and not coming into a centre.
The demand and type of service required has changed in recent years, as stated in regard to reporting to the Garda, and necessitates a more immediate, well-informed and flexible response. According to the latest research from two reliable sources from the US — I do not have the references — outside of the common response, when a person is facing an overwhelming experience, it is a case of fright or flight. There is evidence to suggest that there is another response, namely, the freeze response which, effectively, is playing dead. We have seen evidence of the latter a great deal over the years. The latest research suggests that one of the other responses to trauma is that women will not leave their children unprotected. They cannot leave a situation without their children's safety being guaranteed. This affirms the need for safe spaces for women and children being available. Both services, in common with all refuge and rape crisis services throughout the country, are rightly expected to provide and to respond professionally and consistently at all times. They do this with care, always having been informed by service users. This was done despite the restrictions on funding.
The insecurity relating to funding also creates a sector in which workers do not have proper contracts. This leads to bad employment practice and ultimately burn-out. The lack of funding has implications with regard to the evaluation of best practice and the best use of funding. More consistent and reasonable funding would allow evaluation and reflection. While official evaluations are not carried out at present, it makes a difference to a victim to be supported on a daily basis. For both agencies, the pressure and competition for funding means the core work of centres has sometimes to be compromised. The race for funding frequently takes away time from service provision. I shall give an example of that.
Funding was recently made available from a Government Department. We knew about this one month in advance but the actual application had to be made within one week and it created enormous pressure on both services. Against all the odds, the Mayo women's support services and Mayo rape crisis centre have provided ongoing and consistent services of the highest quality to 2,500 women in the past ten years. Every woman who comes through the door or who makes a telephone call is treated with respect, attention and affirmation.
We have been through the Kilkenny incest case, the west of Ireland farmer case and many others and what is clear is the connection between domestic violence and sexual abuse. It is a well-documented fact. The National Children's Home's action for children study in 2002 found that children living with domestic violence frequently experience direct physical and sexual assault and that 10% have witnessed their mother being sexually assaulted.
We are glad to be before the committee today. We thank members for the invitation to appear and for their attention. I remind the committee of what Sophia McColgan said when she won the young person of the year award some years ago, namely, "The Government must listen and learn from the agencies on the ground". Hopefully, today is part of that process. We will finish with Ms Byrne reading a recent communication from a person who used the services.
Ms Byrne
This is from a woman who was in the refuge and left within the past two weeks. It reads:
To all the women in the service I wanted to leave something to show how thankful I was to you all so I decided to leave you this note. This is to thank you all very much for the support you have given me during my stay with you. I thank God every night your doors were open to me and my children. I can go on and make a new, happy and peaceful life for me and my children. For that I could not thank you all enough. The memories of here will be with me for a while but they will be fond memories. I can tell you now I left this note because it comes straight from my heart. Thank you to one and all.
I thank the delegation for the presentation.
I welcome the delegation and thank the Chairman for inviting it to come before the committee because domestic and sexual violence is often given a low priority when discussing health in general. That there has been no increase in funding since 2002 reiterates that point only too well.
I am obviously aware of how the services operate in County Mayo. Unfortunately, after speaking with Ms Byrne and Ms MacNeely on the shortcomings in the service — particularly that it is not offered on a seven days a week, 24 hours a day basis — we are aware that domestic and sexual violence does not adhere to the office hours of 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Such violence often happens late at night after drink has been taken or whatever. It was stated that the Garda authorities are setting up protocols. In my experience, this is not always particularly effective. What actually happens to a woman who finds herself in distressing circumstances such as those under discussion at 2 a.m.? To where can she turn? There was a time when one could send a person to the Sacred Heart Home in County Mayo for overnight shelter. We are now informed that the Garda is responsible. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be a clear protocol on where people should go outside office hours.
Ms Neary said that 26% of the funding for refuges comes from local authorities. Is there a co-ordinated national approach to how refuges and rape crisis centres throughout the country get funding? Why are there only 16 centres throughout the country? There does not appear to be a national policy. The level of experience and expertise built up over a period is undoubtedly invaluable to people who find themselves in need of the services. They can avail of the latter rather than having to report to an accident and emergency department or engage with ordinary mainstream health services. This should be recognised as a valuable service and funded accordingly. I have no doubt that the committee will make a recommendation in that regard.
The delegation could come here on another day when the public gallery would be full of journalists. Unfortunately, when this item is on the agenda it is difficult to get public attention. In that regard, can the committee issue a press release after the meeting to allow this matter be brought into the public domain? If members of the media are not prepared to come here, we should get the issue into the public domain. We will do that as individuals but the committee should also do something about it because it is just not good enough.
There should be a co-ordinated national approach to fund services for people who suffer domestic or sexual violence. These problems are not class conscious; they affect everybody in society. One can be very surprised to discover who are the victims of sexual and domestic violence. If people do not have a telephone number to call in confidence, it is difficult for them to turn up at their local hospital because of the perceived stigma relating to matters of this nature.
I was delighted to hear that there has been an increase in reporting to the Garda. That is a welcome development. It has obviously come about through the service provided on the ground but, unfortunately, many counties are not as fortunate as County Mayo. We have all heard about cases where women are afraid. They want to keep it quiet. I know of many cases, going back 20 or 30 years, where the women involved do not want anybody to know what happened to them but yet they need help. If that is their way of dealing with the situation, it is important that the service be provided. I thank the group for coming before the committee.
I also warmly welcome the group and thank its members for their excellent presentation. In my three years as a member of the Joint Committee on Health and Children, I have never been so taken with a presentation. At one stage, I was trying to fight back the tears. The presentation was excellent and it was made in a lovely, gentle manner. It is so sad that we, as a committee, would be affected by something like this problem and we sit here as politicians with one hand behind our backs, so to speak. I agree with Deputy Cooper-Flynn that we should issue a press release after this meeting. We have often discussed other issues and the press gallery would be full yet there is not one journalist here this morning. Shame on those who missed this excellent presentation.
I want to raise a matter that is of concern to me. This State is provided with a service through the representatives, whether it be via the support groups or the rape crisis centres, but they do not have the resources to deal with all the problems coming through their doors. Some people, therefore, will not get the attention they need. Others will get only half the attention they need and a small group will get full attention. Do the representatives envisage this problem ending up in a tribunal type situation with women feeling they have been victimised by the State because they have not received the counselling they need for themselves and their children? We must remember that for every one woman, there can be up to two children affected. Ms McNeely said she was looking after 15 women who, between them, have 50 children. That is a staggering number. If it was one woman, one child something could be done for them.
I want to put a question to Ms Byrne. The Western Region Rape Crisis Centre developed a programme specifically for secondary schools but has not been able to deliver it. I take it that would be like a transition year programme in that members of the group would go into the schools to warn young girls about violence and teach them how to stand up for themselves. Will she outline that in more detail and explain the reason the centre has been unable to implement the programme?
Approximately 12 or 18 months ago, when driving from Dublin to Sligo and back again, I saw advertisements displayed on large billboards. I understand they were erected by the rape crisis centres or perhaps Ms O'Halloran's group. In any event, they were extremely effective. We were being told about the problem in black and white. A woman's face was pictured with a man's hand reaching out to hit her. I should say that domestic violence does not only affect women. Men are also affected but, by and large, the figures relating to women are higher. The advertisements to which I refer stated that violence against women is a crime. That opened up our minds to the fact that it is a crime, just as breaking into a shop or stealing from somebody is a crime, and it should not go unreported. What was the take-up in terms of calls after that campaign? Was there an increase in the number of people seeking help as a result?
The representatives have really moved me this morning and I will talk about them wherever I go. I wish them well in their work.
I also welcome the representatives. The most important point the committee has heard today is the fact that funding was capped in 2002. In many ways, we have a duty to ensure that in the next budget round that figure is improved because, as the representatives said, they will otherwise be going backwards.
Further to what Senator Feeney said about the increase in reporting, the service providers are victims of their own success in many ways because the increase in reporting means that more people are being reached, which is what they want, but they are unable to provide the service to them and people can be disappointed. As one representative stated, there is nothing as bad as having taken that courageous decision to pick up the telephone only to get through to an answering service. That would be a setback to somebody in a crisis and I am sure the representatives are not pleased when it happens. Would the provision of a 24-hour service be the representatives' single priority or what would be their priority in terms of delivering a better service?
What is the reason for the 25% increase in reporting? In other countries, particularly those in the developing world, we have seen women's interaction with police forces. Our police force is somewhat different to those in other countries but there are ways of training police officers — reference was made to the introduction of protocols — to deal with these cases. The treatment a woman gets in a police station is vitally important. Some countries have introduced training for police officers in how to deal with victims of sexual violence. Does such training take place in Ireland? If so, I would like to hear more about it.
On a point of clarification, Ms Neary mentioned that a more co-ordinated approach is being taken in terms of Government agencies. That sounds positive but is that only in terms of organisation or will it deliver money also? Her presentation refers to the negative experiences of negotiating funding with statutory funders. Why is that the case? The evidence in the presentation is that the English experience, notwithstanding the trauma, costs billions of pounds. Senator Feeney alluded to the fact that we may see more tribunals established in the future but prevention is better than cure. It is much more cost effective. Why are the organisations still having these negative experiences? Is it the view of the representatives that people working in organisations dealing with violence against women are almost embarrassed to seek funding? That may sound provocative but there is a reference to negative experiences in the presentation. Why should that be the case or, dare I say it, are they adopting the wrong approach when they request money from statutory agencies?
The presentation from Ms Byrne and Ms McNeely refers to a waiting list of up to six months before people can get appointments. What does that mean? If somebody presents today, are the representatives saying they will not get proper therapy for at least six months? In addition, what is the average stay for people in the various centres?
I wish to comment first on the presentation by Ms Byrne and Ms MacNeely, which dealt specifically with the position on the ground. They highlighted alarming facts and figures, namely, that there has been no increase in staff in one of these organisations since 1997, and that 12 people are currently on a waiting list for a service in one of these organisations. Ass Ms Neary mentioned, people have to wait up to six months to get consistent appointments, there is no proper response to a person in crisis, no outreach service and no helpline. The representatives' organisations are operating on a shoestring while providing valuable services.
Having previously been a councillor and serving now as a Deputy, my experience in terms of dealing with individuals seeking funding from agencies such as the former health boards is that the modus operandi of those people managing local centres seems to be to stretch those working in such organisations in terms of resources to see how they cope. For example, if a woman with a child is seeking a back to education allowance and she can manage to live at home with her parents, the Department concerned does not provide the funding. It is as simple as that. Have the representatives’ organisations had a similar experience in that Government notes the organisations are able to provide double the normal service on half the money normally required and, because they can do that — even though they are doing so on a shoestring — its attitude is that the service is being provided, so what is the problem? Can the representatives give specific examples of the excuses given by the statutory agencies for the manner in which the people in power have dealt with them or the reasoning given by the statutory agencies for their decisions? I cannot see a justifiable excuse for not providing funding for a service that is being well provided but on a shoestring.
I wish to praise Ms Neary for the way in which the presentation was given. I am not a member of the committee but I am a member of the Joint Committee on Education and Science. I have constantly called on the Minister for Education and Science to arrange for the carrying out of a cost-benefit analysis of the impact of the lack of investment in primary education in terms of social welfare payments, tax revenue lost to the Exchequer and expenditure on prison spaces. In that sense, the representatives have been clever in their presentation but, unfortunately, there are no members of the media present to get across that message.
It should be re-emphasised that Governments tend to look to the next election, while the cost to the State of such investment could be borne over two terms of office of Government. It could be ten years down the line before the more costly aspects of investment in health and social services, to which the representatives alluded, come to have a bearing on society. Do the representatives agree that there is a need for a cost benefit analysis of Irish facts and figures in this area as opposed to relying on research in the UK? Would that help in putting the case plainly to Government? I presume all Governments would say that the bottom line is the cost involved. It would be helpful if the message was put across in the print media that it is costing the taxpayer money not to invest in primary education and in five years' time such lack of investment will cost the taxpayer even more money. I accept that it is not the more emotive issue of what each of the clients of the organisations has to face and how each of them deals with that. Governments tend to look at the bottom line. In that context, the battle must continue to shift to that bottom line.
It should be pointed out that the Government, by failing to invest in this area, is not only exacerbating the trauma faced by survivors and their children but it is costing the average person who does not come face to face with abuse on a daily basis more money. Are the representatives of the organisations of the view that such a case can be made without the support of a cost benefit analysis or will they call on the Government to do that?
I compliment the representatives on their presentation, which was splendid. Having been involved in fundraising for the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre for many years, I understand the dreadful fix in which these organisations find themselves. As other members have said, the committee will support every effort to ensure that the agency is given statutory funding. Do the representatives' organisations have voluntary committees to undertake fundraising on their behalf? It is much more difficult in the country to deal with the problem of abuse of women in the home, violence and rape than it is in the city, where people are much more anonymous. I noted the point that travelling 18 miles on public transport is very difficult for a person who is going to either report violence or seek counselling for rape. It is far more difficult for people to own up to perpetrating violence in the country because everybody knows who everybody is, while people are more anonymous in the city. The organisations are probably only seeing a small percentage of the number of people who are abused. They are finding it difficult enough to cope with providing services for those numbers but if more people sought assistance from them, the organisations would find it more difficult. There are almost certainly far more people affected.
It was interesting to note the large increase in the number of people who are prepared to report rape. What is the position regarding having acute cases examined? For example, is there a centre in Castlebar hospital that is helpful in that respect or are there GPs throughout the county of Mayo — it is a large county — who carry out examinations to obtain the forensic evidence needed? Have the organisations much involvement with the local legal aid boards?
I was concerned to hear what was said regarding the rent allowances. One of the representatives said that matters have become worse because of that position and perhaps she might expand on that.
I have been reading through the network's report. As we all know, the perpetrators of sexual abuse of children are almost always members of the family. Incest is a terribly difficult problem with which to deal. What is the position regarding sex education in primary and secondary schools in the representatives' areas? I compliment the representatives on all the work their organisations are doing.
I welcome the delegations and thank them for their presentation, which was informative. I was not aware that there was no increase in funding for the organisations during the past three years. That should be examined. I note that some 26% of funding for refuges comes from local authorities. What is the experience of the representatives of the organisations in Mayo in that regard? Does that service work and is it as positive as it reads in the documentation? I note that 15 women have been on a waiting list for this service for over six months. What happens in the event of one of those women finding herself in an emergency situation and having to find a place in a refuge to stay with her children? How do the organisations deal with such an emergency?
If funding was available to the organisations tomorrow, what would the representatives consider to be the priorities of their organisations? What do the representatives of the organisations in Mayo consider are the most important elements that should be addressed to improve the position?
Will Ms Neary indicate the current legal position in regard to a woman who has been raped? Is it still the case that the State will prosecute the case and that the woman will be called as a witness. Are there still moves afoot to change the position?
What is the essence of the school programme to which one of representatives referred? Does it involve teaching people to deal with anger and violence and is it equally relevant to boys and men and to girls and women?
The many questions raised indicate the level of interest in this issue among the members. I take Deputy Cooper-Flynn's point. She has been making the case on behalf of these organisations for quite some time. There is no media coverage of this meeting. It is not our place to apologise for that because it is outside our scope but we intend to follow up this issue by way of a press release. I will meet Deputy Cooper-Flynn and other members after the meeting in that regard. We want to highlight what has been said at this meeting. It is most unfortunate that members of the media did not see fit to recognise the valuable contribution we are making.
They may be watching it on their monitors.
We will try to rectify that by indicating what the representatives have said in a press release from the committee. In the meantime, I invite the representatives to respond to as many of the questions raised as they can.
Ms Neary
The first point I would like to make is that many questions were raised and this reflects the nature of the issue with which we are dealing. One member asked if we are our own worst enemies in that we keep managing on a smaller and smaller shoestring. Sometimes I think that is the case. Having worked in front-line service delivery, one of the hardest things I have ever done is to inform a woman calling a helpline that she must go on a waiting list. We are our own worst enemies to some extent in that we keep trying to find ways to make the money go further. It is very hard to not do that and to turn people away. I am not sure how we can respond to the many questions raised.
Ms O’Halloran
I will respond to some of the points raised and we will pick up on others as we proceed. I am the director of the National Network of Women's Refuges and Support Services. We are the national representative organisation for all domestic violence frontline services. We currently have 38 members throughout the country. We have 18 refuges and the rest are support services. The only difference between both is that of accommodation.
I am struck by the fact the media are not here today and by the lack of interest in this topic. A lot of work must be done to raise awareness of the issue of violence against women. It is difficult to hear that women are being raped in our community and that they are living as prisoners in their own homes where they are desperately abused. For that reason, it is a difficult message to get across. However, we must practice zero tolerance. That is my and everyone else's responsibility. My mother often asks me about my work, but she does not understand domestic violence. The person on the street does not understand it. The Government must spend large sums of money on explaining domestic violence and what we can do together to prevent it. We cannot allow it to continue. It is a huge indictment of our society.
As regards the billboard campaign by the national steering committee on violence against women, there was an increase in calls to helplines and services throughout the country. One talks about awareness campaigns and services from which funding has been withdrawn since 2002. We must make people more aware at national and local level and we must ensure that the services are provided for the women and children who need them.
There are places for women to go at 2 a.m. Most of the refuges operate a 24-hour service. The services have arrangements with the local Garda station where women can be contacted. They can go to the gardaí. It is critical that they are received well and that they are supported and protected in that environment, but that is not always the case. I know the gardaí are working hard to address that. As regards training for gardaí, Women's Aid and others do training in Templemore with the gardaí, but it is not enough. There is a need for more training. We must ensure that women take that first step, which is critical. Women are at most risk when they look for support and talk about this crime. We must get that message across. If one looks at the murder cases in this country, women are murdered at the time of leaving.
As regards the co-ordination of funding — local authorities were referred to — it is ad hoc throughout the country. Some services get local authority funding for one thing or another, but the services in another area do not. When we asked the Departments how much they spend on dealing with violence against women, we could not get a figure. That is why the interdepartmental committee on funding has been set up. We want information from each Department on how much it spends on dealing with violence against women and where it is targeted. The committee is considering setting up subheads which might make it easier in terms of knowing what money is available and where it is targeted. It is due to have a report ready for the summer Estimates.
We met the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, and he was supportive. He said if we can get this report to him, he will look favourably on existing needs. We have sought a meeting with the Minister for Health and Children, but we have been unsuccessful to date. The Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Fahey, is the chair of the national steering committee and he has supported these issues. He is also chairman of the interdepartmental committee on funding. We hope it will be better co-ordinated through these processes. We hope that when we ask how much money is being spent on dealing with violence against women we will get those figures.
The changes within the HSE are causing problems in that it is not clear how things will operate and who will have overall responsibility for the budget to deal with violence against women. That has become a little more clear in the past week. As regards local services, how and with whom does one lobby? As a national representative organisation, we have a direct line with the Department of Health and Children. We get our funding through the Health Service Executive. However, it is just a conduit. In other years we lobbied the Department of Health and Children for what we needed. However, it is not clear where we go now.
Ms O'Halloran is not alone there.
Ms O’Halloran
I know. Once these issues are resolved, we hope the co-ordination of funding will also improve.
Funding has been appalling since 2002. The majority of our clients in need of refuges and support services are children. Some refuges do not have child care workers or a budget. It is not seen as necessary in a refuge. Refuges and support services deal with second and third generation domestic violence against women. The children who came into refuges are now coming back as adults because they are experiencing the same violence as their parents. It is a vicious cycle which has not been broken. This issue must be addressed. It is costing the State a fortune in terms of psychiatric illnesses and other problems.
Ms Neary
It is also a fact that if front-line services were funded, some of these cases could be prevented. We are talking about a full cost benefit analysis. The investigation of a domestic homicide could cost approximately €1 million, and our services could prevent that. Such cost benefit analysis is required.
As regards tribunals and people suing because their human rights have been infringed through the absence of services, one must consider what will happen in some parts of the country. I have no doubt that Mary, who is in third level education and who is raped by a fellow student but who cannot access the service, will drop out of college because of the lack of ongoing support, which means she cannot report it to the gardaí or access a forensic medical examination. The myriad of costs to that individual in terms of her human rights and the loss of her contribution to our society as a citizen who can fully participate in it are multi-layered. It is likely that Mary tried to access a local service and got through to an answering machine. When she eventually got through, she would have been put on a waiting list.
There are multiple needs for someone who is sexually assaulted at night. There may be a need for shelter, medical care, which is not simply forensic, and appropriate Garda support if the person chooses to report the crime. The Rape Crisis Network has initiated a new range of work with the Garda since last September. It is looking at three areas in particular. The first is Garda training at all levels, while the second is the possibility of specialist investigators, whether that model could be useful in the investigation of sexual violence in Ireland and how appropriate it would be. The third area relates to sensitivity and the approach of the gardaí in working with people who have been sexually victimised. No budget has been provided for any of that work. The services and the individuals and networks involved are continuously trying to find ways to make progress, but funding is not made available.
This issue will cost the State. I know a woman who contacted us to find out if it would be appropriate for her to take a case to the European Court of Human Rights because she could not access a forensic medical examination. I do not know if tribunals will be set up to deal with this matter, but the State is losing out badly because of under-investment in this sector.
Ms O’Halloran
As regards refuge space, according to the media, women are turned away. There is a problem in Dublin which is unique to that area, namely, the need for more refuge spaces. Much of that is caused by the housing situation. Women cannot find transitional housing. They cannot move on. They are staying longer in refuges and, therefore, are taking up places. It is a situation unique to Dublin and it needs to be addressed in that context. Women who come for refuge are not turned away. They will be looked after in some sense but there is an issue in respect of accommodation.
On co-ordination, there is a group in Blanchardstown which has been together over a number of years. It has planned everything, costed the building of a refuge and it has a site. The Departments of Health and Children and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government cannot decide who should pay for this. The group has not been able to proceed, even though it has everything in place and in order. That refuge is critical for Dublin because there is a situation within the capital that needs to be addressed.
The other matter I would highlight is that last week the National Crime Council launched its research into the prevalence of domestic abuse. What emerged from its report is that we are touching on the tip of the iceberg as regards domestic violence. It also emerged that those who reported in the survey that they were experiencing domestic violence had not reported the crime. Therefore, those who are coming forward to seek services are the tip of the iceberg in terms of what is happening throughout the country.
Ms Neary
We are not unique in that regard. The SAVI report found that 50% of the women and men who have experienced some form of sexual violence in Ireland had told no one. Some 50% are still telling no one. We probably feel at this point that there is an avalanche in the press in that we are constantly now seeing sexual violence covered but 50% of survivors of sexual violence are still telling no one about what they experienced. Of the 50% who do tell, only 12% contact a support agency.
When those who had never previously disclosed their experiences of sexual violence were asked why this was so, one of the key reasons they gave was that nobody had ever asked them. In terms of protocols and guidelines, there is a need for certain of those in certain professions who come into contact with women who have experienced violence to be trained and familiar with the protocols in order to be able to routinely ask women if they are experiencing or have experienced sexual violence. There then must be a way to explain the different forms of violence being experienced.
Has the delegation seen the report from St. James's Hospital, where the authorities obliged nurses to ask about this?
Ms Neary
It was so distressing.
It was horrific to see the numbers concerned, particularly those coming in with old injuries.
What is the report to which Ms Neary referred?
Ms Neary
The Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland, or SAVI, report of 2002 which was produced by the Royal College of Surgeons and the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. Ireland is quite lucky in that it is one of the few countries which has a prevalence report for the extent of sexual violence within its borders.
Ms Byrne
To add to what Ms Neary stated about the protocols and procedures in hospitals or Garda stations, last year we and the Rape Crisis Centre undertook a number of information sessions with the medical staff at Mayo General Hospital. We targeted the antenatal clinic, the gynaecology ward and the maternity unit. It was decided that we would follow that with half-day workshops looking at screening and how to ask women about their experiences. Due to lack of resources, however, we have not been able to follow through with that. We have also done it with every public health nurse in County Mayo. They now would have some knowledge and awareness of the issue of domestic violence and, most importantly, information that they can give to women about available supports.
One point which must be highlighted is that we believe this concerns giving options to women. Refuge is crucial for many women but considering that in the region of 3% of women access refuge, one must ask where the other women are going and what other supports they need. Some women would not approach a refuge because of the stigma involved. Some women may be in a position where they can stay with family or friends or in a bed and breakfast establishment. For those women who must leave their homes in the middle of the night when the Mayo Women's Support Services are not available, we are now negotiating with the Garda authorities because gardaí find the only response they can give is to take the women to whom I refer to the 24-hour refuge in Galway. Why should women who live in Belmullet, Achill or Castlebar have to go to Galway?
It should be about the perpetrator of the abuse. Something needs to be done with that person. Women need to be given more options and we are working with the Garda in terms of trying to identify people in local communities. It is crucial to bring it to local communities. It is happening in our communities and we need to respond to that. We are working with local communities looking at safe places. I refer here, for example to bed and breakfast accommodation, where proprietors have agreed to provide space for women and their children on an emergency basis. The following morning we can provide assistance for such women. It is about providing as many options as possible for women. Not all women are the same. There are so many different groups of women that we must develop appropriate innovative ways of supporting them with whatever decision they make.
On section 10 funding, the homelessness strategy recommended that funding be available on the basis of the number of beds provided, not the number of times those beds were used. Ms O'Halloran and Ms Neary spoke about it. There are so many differences throughout the country and we cannot get a clear answer as to why we are not getting full section 10 funding. We are told by the local authority that the Department is asking for detailed statistics. That is fine with us. We have the statistics to prove there is a need.
As already stated, we are currently underfunded by at least 50% under section 10. We cannot maintain accommodation if we do not have the funding to do so. The accommodation is of an extremely high standard in Mayo because it all is self-contained and is not a communal refuge. There are self-contained units for women, which is quite unique. If we do not invest in keeping that accommodation properly maintained, it will become run down. If we asked women to stay in a shabby place without appropriate facilities, what message would we be giving to them? We could not do that. It is disgraceful. We must receive the correct amount of funding.
I do not know whether a 24-hour system would be best for Mayo because it is about options. What we need is the flexibility to provide 24-hour cover, if necessary, and to provide a system where people are on call and where we have relief staff and support workers. We would have to employ more staff to support a woman if she needs that support.
I presume children who report sexual abuse are dealt with separately by the social services and would not go to Ms Byrne's refuge unless they were with a parent.
Ms Byrne
That is correct.
My query relates to the education of children. Are children who are there for a period able to access education? Does the matter of getting teachers in or of children attending the local school relate to the funding?
My second question, which is not related but is merely for my own information, is general in nature and concerns the perpetrators of abuse. Ms Neary stated that if one homicide can be stopped, money and lives will be saved. Once a case is reported and the woman is in the refuge, what proportion of the perpetrators subsequently threaten violence and what proportion would seek treatment on the basis of a female accessing the services?
Ms Byrne
On the issue of education, women who present at a refuge with their children would, if necessary, enroll them in the school in Castlebar. It very much depends on circumstances.
We were asked about the length of the average stay. In Mayo, the average stay would be in the region of 13 nights. It is about working with the woman in respect of what she wants to do after she is in refuge. It is crisis accommodation. We must work with her to look at where to go next.
We have a part-time child care worker. If the mother agrees and the children want to participate, she would undertake individual support programmes with children to help them make some sense of what they have been living with and what they have been witnessing.
I mentioned the research we are doing with Trinity College, where the researchers interviewed approximately 15 or 16 young people of various age groups. That research has not been published yet and I do not particularly want to say too much about it. Those interviewed said exactly what women said, namely, that nobody asked them. This was particularly the case in schools. They said the teachers in the schools knew this was happening.
What about sex education in schools in Mayo?
Ms Byrne
I do not think it relates to sex education. It relates to healthy relationships.
There are supposed to be programmes in both primary and secondary schools. A great deal is not being done in many schools. Children can be told that they can object to what they are experiencing.
Ms Neary
We may run into even more severely troubled waters in that regard because, in addition to the absence of programmes to examine what constitutes violence and abuse and what one should do if one is aware this is happening to oneself or someone else, it is increasingly obvious that most teenagers in Ireland now obtain their so-called sex education through pornography. We who have examined this area are aware that the messages deliberately put forward in pornography are not what we would regard as normal or healthy sexuality.
It is increasingly the case that our teenagers receive their sex education through pornography. We will see the effects of this over the next few years. In fact, we are already seeing the effects of it. In other countries, there is a recognition of the problems this will cause and education programmes are developed which specifically target and dismantle the messages put out in pornography and present what we want teenagers to understand to be healthy positive relationships. In the UK, these messages are delivered by a variety of sexual health workers.
We know from the research that has been undertaken in Ireland through teenage tolerance research that teenagers say they do not believe it is appropriate for teachers to do this work because teachers wear so many hats. They were very clear that it was not a matter of whether sex education could be delivered in a school setting but that they wanted individuals other than teachers to deliver these programmes. For anyone wearing an education hat, there are implications for the education system in Ireland, particularly the programmes we may need to deliver in conjunction with the education system in schools and community settings.
To refer to some of the other national points, a member asked if one had money in the morning, what would be the immediate priority. Unfortunately, our immediate priority is to get the money to maintain existing levels of services. We must catch up first. The priority after that is that this violence, which is highly complex, requires a co-ordinated and planned approach. This is where investment must go after we have provided the services that are currently required. The national steering committee is considering putting in place a coherent strategy in the future. However, it will come at a price. The pursuance of that co-ordinated strategy will mean the need for what will appear a substantial budget when one is not considering the cost implications if one does not deliver that budget.
Some of our services attempt at different times to have voluntary fundraising committees. Again, these committees must be supported. This is an increasingly competitive market, so to speak, in terms of trying to raise funding and retain volunteers.
In regard to liaison with legal aid boards, statutory units and general practitioners, I do not know if members would like to go into the legal technicalities. It is still the case that a rape victim continues to have the status of a witness in the judicial system if the State takes the case on behalf of the victim, and it is the Director of Public Prosecutions who will decide whether a case should be prosecuted. We frequently call for further accountability in terms of understanding how that decision is made. We are concerned that while the rate of reporting in Ireland is increasing, the rate of conviction is falling.
Given that this is a health-oriented committee, a whole other presentation could be made around legal issues which, as a coalition, we recently made to the Law Reform Commission. Last month, we presented our common legal position on the myriad legalities that must be examined. A whole other presentation needs to be made at an education committee on the broad remit of education and what needs to be considered. A multidisciplinary response is required in this regard.
With regard to incest education in primary and secondary schools, we find that very often people do not consider what is happening to them to be a crime. There is a need for this level of education so that people can understand what is happening to them.
Can I say something on incest, because something dawned on me when Senator Henry referred to it? Approximately 30 years ago, in the mid to late 1970s, the Rotunda opened the doors of its sexual assault treatment unit. This was the work of one of its masters who had been in Australia and seen a sexual assault treatment unit. This opened his eyes and he came back and set up a limited multidisciplinary team with whatever funding the State provided at the time. The person fronting the unit was Dr. Moira Woods who went on to pioneer great work in the areas of women's crisis centres and sexual abuse against women.
When the Rotunda opened the doors of the unit, within a month the place was flooded with children who were victims of incest. This was 30 years ago and, as a result, Dr. Woods has had her share of publicity, some good and some bad. It surprises me that we have not moved on since then. Being from Sligo, I am well aware of the Sophia McColgan case. Is this still ongoing and is it the case that we will not talk about it because it affects families?
Ms Neary
What we have seen over the past 30 years as a result of women's organisations and frontline services being set up and many people requiring change is that there is a greater awareness of what is taking place in this regard. However, social services do not have the resources to investigate the flood of allegations of child sexual abuse they receive. There are three interdisciplinary committees examining the issue of statutory provision for forensic medical examinations.
Given that we are moving forward progressively in dealing with adults who have experienced sexual violence and require forensic medical examination, the issue that has emerged is the need for the uptake of these services by teenagers. What quickly became evident to the committee was the absence of a paediatric forensic examination facility.
When one begins to deal with one aspect of the problem, all the other undealt-with aspects surface. This is an issue for our services, because if statutory units are set up throughout the country, they will require rape crisis support. However, there is no funding for rape crisis centres to provide this support. This support could be the key difference between one deciding whether to report a crime.
Ms O’Halloran
On the point made regarding the percentage of people who threaten ongoing violence, just because a woman accesses support does not mean the perpetrator will stop the violence. In fact, it can become much more complicated, particularly where children are involved. Custody and access are major issues. The perpetrator often uses the children to access the mother to continue the violence. It is a major issue if one does not have supervised access and custody.
It is appalling.
Ms O’Halloran
It is a major problem. It continually puts women and children at risk. On the perpetrator programmes, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform carried out an evaluation last year of programmes throughout the country. These findings were stark because the majority of men on these programmes continued to use violence. All the women interviewed had been raped as part of the abuse.
Why does the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform deal with the crime of rape outside the criminal justice system? These programmes are not attached to the criminal justice system, so the men are not being held accountable for their crimes. Women often make a decision to go back to the relationship because the man has gone on a programme. He knows that and will use that. It is very complex and we are calling——
Are women advised to be wary of going back?
Ms O’Halloran
The support services would be in contact with the woman and she would be aware of the dangers. It is a relationship and it is complex; she loves him and wants to be loved. It is complex for all those reasons. We need to insist that the programmes are strongly linked to the criminal justice system.
How can it be that they are not? Violence and crime exist and it does not matter what the pretext is. A crime is a crime.
Ms O’Halloran
There is a belief that if these men are brought into a room and given some personal development, the crime will go away. These men can stop their violence any time they want. They just have to say "I will not do it any more". They do not need to be retrained and reprogrammed, they need to be held accountable for their crimes.
Is it not somewhat more difficult dealing with violence? Is it a question of whether they grew up in abusive or violent backgrounds? It is more than just deciding to stop. That is the rational person's approach.
Ms O’Halloran
It is a fact that any person could stop tomorrow. Programmes can be useful but not if they are not linked to the criminal justice system.
Is it part of the problem that no action is being taken against them? It may emerge in therapy that their partner has been raped but what if she is not prepared to pursue it?
Ms O’Halloran
I wish to make it clear that these programmes do not offer therapy. They are simply personal development and anger management programmes. They are very basic in nature.
That is a clear distinction.
Ms O’Halloran
It is very different.
Ms Byrne
I wish to address that point. Ms O'Halloran stated that a man can stop the violence if he is rational. Women who come to the service and to the rape crisis centre often say that the man has a problem with his temper or with drink. We break that statement down. We say "OK, he is in the pub. Does he assault the barman? No, he does not. When he gets into a taxi, does he abuse the taxi driver? No, he does not." He waits until he comes home and he chooses to be violent then. It is as simple and as complicated as that. It is a matter of choice and society condones it because of the criminal justice system and for many other reasons. The emphasis is always on the woman who is questioned as to why she stays or why she does not leave. The question needs to be turned the other way. Why is he continuing to abuse his partner and the mother of his children?
That is an excellent point which expresses what has been discussed this morning. If he even dared to verbally threaten the barman or the taxi driver, there would be a court case pending. However, he can go home and half kill his wife by beating and possibly raping her and, as with a case of incest, it is all hushed up because it is happening within a family home.
We are pressed for time.
Five other joint committees have a role to play in this matter. A good point was made about the legal issues. I suggest that the committee write to the Joint Committees on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, Education and Science and Social and Family Affairs to elevate this issue.
I take the Deputy's point.
Ms MacNeely
We did not have an opportunity to answer some of the questions. The big issue is the question of appointments and what is to be done when someone in a crisis situation contacts us. We prioritise calls and check whether a person has other supports and whether other agencies are available to her. We give her that information but we must prioritise. We offer a helpline for two hours a day. Regarding the situation in County Mayo, there has been an increase in reporting but we need to see what will happen to those cases because we do not know.
On the question of the negative experience of negotiating for funding, we as service providers are rightly accountable and we are happy to be so but we must supply diverse funding agencies with a level of information. They all seek different information and statistics and this takes up a significant part of our work time.
I had many other points I wished to make. The SPHE programme is used in primary schools as is the child abuse prevention programme. The stay safe programme is supposed to be taught in all schools. The inspectorate demands those programmes——
Is it being taught?
Ms MacNeely
It is being taught but there are areas where it is being resisted. On a final point about incest and the area of sexual violence, this is the last issue any of us want to hear about and this is the wall over which a woman must climb to make any disclosures. I had other points to make but I will be quiet.
I do not wish to cut this discussion short. The presentation has been very interesting and the committee will wish to take positive action. I hope a press release will be issued about this meeting. I will ask Deputy Cooper-Flynn and others and the delegation to work together. This is not just a case of doing something for the optics.
I take the point made that this issue is not just to do with this committee's remitand there are four or five other committees which could be involved. Rather than a sub-committee of this committee dealing with the issue, I will suggest, at the meeting of the chairmen of committees, that a sub-committee made up of members from the five or six committees be set up to deal with the issues presented by the delegation. I do not think this committee alone can do justice to the issues raised. I ask that the delegation make a short written submission to the committee on the main points highlighted today and on those in respect of which it wishes to see movement. I will bring that submission to the attention of the committee of the chairmen of the joint committees.
I propose that the increase of €7 million requested by the delegation be supported by this committee and that a letter to this effect be addressed to the Tánaiste.
I propose that we lobby the Minister for Finance.
I support that proposal. Rather than just leave matters as they stand today, the committee will await the delegation's submission. It will not be left on the shelf. This has been a most interesting meeting. The committee will respond to the delegation within a number of months.
The joint committee adjourned at 12.38 p.m. sine die.