Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jul 2008

Disability Services: Discussion with Disability Federation of Ireland.

I welcome Mr. John Dolan, chief executive officer, Ms Joanne McCarthy, policy and research officer, and Mr. Allen Dunne, deputy chief executive officer, from the Disability Federation of Ireland, DFI.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members may ask questions after the briefing.

Mr. John Dolan

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the committee. I congratulate Deputy Ó Fearghaíl on his appointment as Chairman of the committee. I pay tribute to his predecessor, the new Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Moloney. During his time as Chairman of the committee, the Minister of State was extremely supportive of our work. We wish him well in the Department of Health and Children, where he has responsibility for the areas of disability and mental health.

In our presentation, we are going to be critical of the Health Service Executive in a number of ways. I hope we will do so in a respectful and careful way. There are other agencies which are also involved in the area of health. The HSE has relationships with the Departments of Health and Children and Finance, and with the Oireachtas.

I wish to deal with three core areas. The first of these relates to the amount of funding that is or is not available in respect of disability services. The second area is the partnership or relationship between the voluntary disability sector and the HSE. The third area relates to authority or governance issues vis-à-vis the HSE and the Oireachtas in respect of disability funding.

Of all the different areas of Government activity, and in the context of the national disability strategy, that relating to health is the most important for people with disabilities and mental health conditions. If people cannot get out of bed in the morning, access physiotherapy services, obtain appointments, etc., they are not going to be overly interested in other matters. That puts the committee and its members in an important place with regard to progressing the national disability strategy.

Under the national development plan, current total spending on disability services is over €2.5 billion. The DFI is concerned because the HSE has indicated that it is seeking to achieve what it terms "efficiency savings" of 1% per annum from the overall allocation of €2.5 billion — some €25 million — and diverting it to the other overspend areas within its budget. Furthermore, this year's allocation of €50 million of multi-annual funding from the 2004 package has not been released. It is our view that this money has been earmarked for investment in other areas. I am not confident people with disabilities will benefit from that funding this year. Taken together, it would mean €75 million voted by the Oireachtas is more likely to be diverted elsewhere this year.

Many disability organisations continue to fund-raise to provide necessary health services which the HSE has a statutory remit to provide. At the same time, the executive is attempting to draw this sector into new contracting arrangements which it states it cannot respect. It is not in a position in all cases to respect the independence and autonomy of the sector. That runs counter to Government policy and common sense.

We are making this case with a clear expectation people with disabilities will have access to the comprehensive range of health and personal social services that they need. We draw on two sources in that regard. The first is that, as human beings, people have a right to their dignity being vindicated by being able to reasonably expect basic health and personal social services will be available to them when they need them. This is about vindicating people's human rights and their dignity to get on with life in the State; it is not only about services. The second is the commitment of the Government and the social partners to implementation of the disability strategy set out strongly in Towards 2016 and An Agreed Programme for Government, which states "Government is determined to continue to prioritise the interests of people with disabilities over the next five years through a series of significant measures".

We are concerned about the downturn in the economy. Disability is enough of a difficulty or vulnerability for an individual without the fear, burden or concern that there may be a slowdown or cutbacks. The background to this issue is Part 2 of the Disability Act 2005 which provides for independent assessments of needs. The State says it has a huge job to do. The health needs of every person with a disability must be assessed in a statement and services provided progressively over a number of years. That is a statement the job is starting. It is difficult in that context for any of us to contemplate that we will not continue to make progress.

Last December we had a hard landing in the budget. In the three previous years a €50 million multiannual package was provided. On top of this, €20 million was provided in 2005, €35 million in 2006 and €40 million in 2007. Therefore, an additional €95 million was voted by the Oireachtas for disability services. This year €50 million was provided to honour a commitment given by the then Minister for Finance in 2004. That is a massive slowdown in the move to provide additional funding.

Disability is strongly embedded in the policy implementation cycle, which we very much welcome. A vision is set out in the national disability strategy, Towards 2016 and An Agreed Programme for Government to enable people to get out and about and earn a decent income. Commitments are set out in Towards 2016 that there be will "a constructive relationship with stakeholders in relation to progress on the Strategy as a whole". The NESC and Comptroller and Auditor General reports push for greater collaboration and working in partnership.

The key issue is that the voluntary disability sector is seen as a partner in the delivery of services, problem solving and trying to make everything work better with State agencies. That is clear at that level but I refer to the HSE and voluntary disability sector partnership which can bring a number of attributes to the table. We can muster community engagement and awareness, as well as voluntary fund-raising. All our boards comprise people who act in a voluntary capacity. A lot of other voluntary work is undertaken. The organisations bring a significant capital stock to the table, including innovation, expertise and ongoing strong relationships with people with disabilities. Many of them have people with disabilities embedded in their operation, management and governance.

The problem is that there is a major disconnect between this approach and the ongoing behaviour of the HSE. Recently, the executive published service level and grant aid agreements to which it would like the disability organisations and other external agencies to sign up under sections 38 and 39 of the Health Act 2004. The agreements look on the voluntary organisations as subcontractors rather than partners and provide for a control and dependency relationship rather than one based on trust and joint problem solving.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 2005 states, "The continuance of a relationship with not-for-profit service providers as partners in service development and delivery would involve the State in actively working with organisations to strengthen their organisational capacity". There is a need more than ever for voluntary disability organisations to be supported to ensure their governance structures can respond to the growing challenges. The challenges are welcome in that they are all about greater accountability, transparency and improved service provision for people with disabilities, yet the 1% funding cut will, first and foremost, affect the back offices of organisations which need stability and strength to operate better as organisations and with others.

We would very much welcome regular and ongoing engagement with the HSE on an organisation to organisation basis in achieving greater efficiencies for the purpose of ensuring services for people with disabilities are enhanced and money is not diverted elsewhere. We worked hard with politicians to secure that money and will not hand it back too easily. The ongoing reform programme in the HSE continues to hinder the formulation of positive relationships with the sector. We have tried to engage at every level with an organisation consumed by its own evolving or revolving structures where the impact of the internal efforts to reform is distracting from sufficiently and consistently focusing on people with disabilities.

I refer to the issue of funding. New and enhanced provision for services increased strongly between 2005 and 2007 but came to a halt in budget 2008. Not alone did it stop but it receded, from a total of €95 million in 2007 to €50 million extra in 2008. This was a deceleration in the rate of growth of almost 50%.

The Minister for Finance made a decision in 2004 to set up the very welcome multi-annual funding programme. At the time the Minister stated in the Budget Statement that other disability services would continue to be dealt with as a normal part of the annual Estimates process. This has not happened in this current year. Today is 1 July and we have not seen one cent of the €50 million of the multi-annual funding being pumped down the line and providing services to people.

We are down €45 million on last year and there is no sign of the €50 million. The 1% cut is being introduced now which has the effect of taking €25 million out of services for disabled people. This committee is one of the right places to ask why it is possible that an executive agency under the aegis of the Department of Health and Children can unilaterally overturn not only the funding allocation remit of the Oireachtas but what is set out in the NDP. These 1% efficiency savings may be called that, but it must be made clear that this is a conscious and systematic removal of funding voted by the Oireachtas for disability services and allocation to other areas. I have no doubt it was well meaning but decisions were made and we expect those decisions to hold.

I emphasise that as well as the multi-annual funding, if the results of the independent assessment of need are ever to be implemented, there is a great need in the medium to long term and over the years, for significant extra investment in the disability area. The NDP allocated almost €19 billion for disability services out to 2013. From 2010 onwards, the annual increases making up that funding will be simply 2% per annum. Those projections were done before the NDP was published and were made on the basis of the Department of Finance forecast of an annual growth rate of approximately 5%. If that money comes through — we hope it does — it will be a modest amount and will not achieve what we want. We are also at a point where we are not even sure that this money will hold. There are a couple of clear problems which we invite the committee to consider.

The HSE has admitted to this committee that it has diverted funding to other services and it stated that decisions to reallocate funding were made by the senior management team at national level. We also know that the chief executive, Professor Drumm, has acknowledged that money earmarked for palliative care was spent elsewhere. Last December the Minister for Health and Children wrote to the chairman of the HSE with the instruction that development funds designated for specific projects in the health service were not to be used to address the financial deficits incurred.

A Vision for Change states that €25 million was allocated for each year 2006 and 2007 but €17 million was delivered in 2006 and €10 million in 2007. This amounts to a little more than half of what was allocated. There are real and very pressing issues about the gap between allocations and what hits the spot. It is unacceptable to us that resources allocated to disability and mental health should be diverted to other areas. If health issues are not addressed, the policy of mainstreaming and the whole intent of the national disability strategy will be in tatters; it is as simple as that.

An Agreed Programme for Government stated that the Government is determined to continue to prioritise the interests of people with disabilities in the next five years. For that commitment to be honoured, another commitment in the programme for Government, namely, that half of the disability strategy would be implemented by 2010, must also come into play.

A particular legacy issue with regard to funding is what we describe as core deficit funding. A range of organisations exist around the country in all areas of disability which are still doing their own fund-raising and providing their own funding to provide basic health and personal social services. To cut to the chase, unless that unsustainable situation is sorted out, new services cannot just be added on when the foundations are left shaking. This situation needs to be sorted out. Funding was allocated in the years 2005 to 2007, a total of €15 million in 2005, €10 million in 2006 and €5 million in 2007, went through the system. Last year's money was withdrawn and there is no allocation this year for that area.

I refer to a tabular statement in the documents presented to the committee which details eleven organisations showing that euro for euro, these organisations are putting in exactly the same amount as is coming from the HSE. Introducing new services without addressing the shortfalls in current services is a case of building on sand. Organisations and people are being taken for granted by the HSE in this regard.

It is essential to get the health and personal social services right to make the disability strategy work. It is a magnificent strategy and people and governments from all over the world ask how it was done. It is a great strategy but unless this area of health — in particular the personal and social services — is dealt with, it will crumble. Funding for disability services needs to have its own budget subhead or some other mechanism — whatever works — to protect the voted money. We will still complain that there is not enough voted but it is really galling that money voted does not go where it says on the tin and this is totally unacceptable. The funding set out in the NDP, which we consider to be modest in terms of the overall project, must be protected. Budget 2008 represents a deceleration of almost 50% in the rate of growth over the previous year. This was a hit we took last December. We do not need one again in the middle of the year but we are getting it. The €50 million multi-annual funding has not been deployed into the system and the 1% efficiency savings, to use a euphemism, must be stopped immediately. The HSE view that it has an overriding statutory obligation to balance the books on a yearly basis, is at odds with other statutory obligations or decisions. For instance, money is voted by means of the Finance Act, so somebody will need to figure out how to avoid these being at odds with each other.

There is a great need for the HSE to acknowledge through its engagement with the voluntary sector that the voluntary disability organisations bring a great deal to the table and that we are not simply subcontractors, there to tender when the HSE considers it needs a service provided. In a sense they are losing a considerable amount by not seeing the broader picture of community involvement. Members and staff spent last weekend trying to get the community involved in the Oireachtas. There is Government policy regarding active citizenship, community engagement, keeping people interested in issues in their country. People do that in day in day out through disability groups and so on. We want the HSE to start working with us on the basis that we are partners with them. We respect its statutory role. Those draft service agreements need to be rewritten from the point of view that it should respect the independence and autonomy of this sector. I draw members' attention to the fact that as voluntary organisations we have the support of the Constitution. I believe Article 40 states that people have the right to form associations and unions. That needs to be understood.

The HSE is not the beginning and end of the matter, but it is without doubt, in the front line. People see and experience its performance and there is no shortage of media interest in that. People do not readily see the connections and relationships between the HSE and a range of other actors, the Departments of Health and Children, and Finance, and the Oireachtas. Being critical of the HSE is popular today to the point of being a national blood sport. I do not wish to add to that kind of discourse. However, there are points well felt across the sector and they need to be made. I hope I have done that in a respectful way.

If possible this committee should further analyse and reflect on matters relating to the relationship between the Oireachtas and the HSE having regard to disability funding. It would be useful for the committee to find a way to prevent the HSE from effectively subverting the decisions of the Oireachtas in respect of voted funding for disability. We need to get delivery of what has been allocated. We will row again about what we need. However, right now we need to get our mitts on what has been allocated in this year's budget — that €50 million. As part of that we need to unravel these 1% cuts, which have been taken from what was committed in the budget.

I point out to the witnesses that there is a vótáil in the Seanad which is why some members have left us.

I welcome Mr. Dolan, Mr. Dunne and Ms McCarthy. I do not have questions but have some comments. It is very sad that the witnesses are here and that we need to have this conversation. It is enough of a hardship in life to have a disability without having to face the full machinery of State to find obstruction and frustration. Mr. Dolan said that it is now nearly a national pastime to be critical of the HSE. As someone who has been critical of the HSE I make no excuse for placing criticism where it is due. Equally I will praise where praise is due. Before I say anything else let me say there are good people working in the HSE who are striving to do a good job and they are as frustrated as the witnesses and I are with the workings of the HSE.

The points the witnesses made are points I made in the Chamber only a few weeks ago. It is unacceptable that we can vote money for specific purposes and find that faceless bureaucrats in a semi-State body can subvert that either through incompetence or through deliberate obstruction, prevent the funds from being spent and bring those funds to spend anywhere they like. At our last committee meeting I was informed by the CEO of the HSE that that has always been the case. However, it was certainly the first I was ever aware of it. It is grievously wrong and harmful to people with disability, with mental health issues and those in need of other front-line services. It is equally grievously harmful to our democracy. What are people to think if they elect Deputies who formulate policies on which the House votes and passes into law, and they can then be negated through sleight of hand or through incompetence?

I am at one with the witnesses in this area. It is wrong that front-line services get hit. I do not know what we can do other than continue to highlight the issues as the witnesses have done today. In fairness to the Minister, she has now stipulated that if funds are to be redirected again, she needs to be informed. That in itself may represent some progress. It is unacceptable that moneys allocated to the provision of disability services were not spent in that area. The 1% efficiency — another term for cut back — to be implemented across the board is a blunt instrument that will not yield the sort of results we want. We want to create efficiencies where there are inefficiencies. We do not want to harm services that are efficient. The witnesses presented a chart showing that 50% of funds come from fundraising by voluntary groups. Voluntary groups do an enormous amount of work and provide support that is not quantifiable. The HSE would find it horrendously expensive to reproduce that if it sought to do so. That is not mentioned in the presentation but is implicit and I am certainly aware of it, as would be many members of this committee.

I do not have any major question for the witnesses other than how they believe this might be changed. That may be an unfair question because I am the one who is supposed to be the politician and should offer solutions. I will press the Minister to ensure that the moneys allocated in these areas are paid up. In his opening remarks Mr. Dolan mentioned the previous Chairman of this committee who did a wonderful job when he was here. He also stated that he would seek to ensure there would be front-ending of the funds that should have gone into these. I intend to hold him to account on that and ensure it is followed through. That is the only thing that is fair and equitable.

Before I finish I will give a few hard real examples. Somebody at a recent clinic expressed dismay that the personal assistant became unwell and there was no replacement because of a recruitment ban. There are at least two other cases, one involving a child who has been attending a facility in Lusk. They used to pay a stipend towards it and were told that was no longer necessary. After a review of the Act they have suddenly been presented with a bill for €6,000 which is not justifiable. I am also aware of three different children who have finished their secondary education — for lack of a better term — and are now seeking an adult service, but no adult service can be provided because this is seen as a new development. Surely to God it is nonsense to call it a new development when we know that annually people will leave the secondary school sector and will be in need of adult services. We know that every year children will be born with Down's syndrome and St. Michael's House will need to offer them positions. It is now claiming it cannot do that either. We find ourselves in a very difficult position. Every society is judged by how it looks after the most vulnerable people. With the current approach of the HSE, we are failing that test. I offer my support and will endeavour to highlight this in every way I can. I hope the HSE will reverse these decisions and put the funding in place so that people can be given the services they need.

I welcome Mr. Dolan and his colleagues from the Disability Federation of Ireland. What he has outlined does not come as any surprise. There is a solution which was known during the debate on the Disability Act, namely, that there should be rights-based legislation. While one might have protection under Article 40 of the Constitution in respect of the freedom to form associations, there is no constitutional or legal protection in respect of the rights of people with disabilities. The Irish Human Rights Commission's submission on the aforementioned legislation stunned everyone by stating people with disabilities in Ireland were considered to be lesser beings in law. It did not exaggerate the position but simply told the truth. Throughout that debate I stated rights-based legislation was required and that the fund must be ring-fenced because everyone knows what happens in times of downturn — the most vulnerable are the ones who will fall off the end of the seat first. That is now happening and the issue must be examined seriously. Faces must be put on the points made by the representatives.

I met a group of people in Cork this morning who were distraught. They have a great commitment to their client base, people with severe disabilities who need personal assistants to get out of bed in the morning, to be washed or assist them to go to work, shop or visit a library. They require assistance to do things others take for granted and do every day of their lives without a thought. The group in question was obliged to issue letters last Friday to its client base informing them it had to cut back on the hours it could give them in providing personal assistance. In some cases, they are cutting back by up to 20 hours a week. One of the group's clients will now spend seven hours a day completely on her own. She is unable to get a drink for herself or go to the bathroom. She is unable to adjust her heating or use the telephone unaided but as a result of these cutbacks, will spend seven hours a day on her own. She is completely dependent on a personal assistant.

It defies logic to announce a saving of 1% across the board. In this case, because the group is small, it will be obliged to endure a cut of 30%. It defies logic to tell a group of people to build its capacity in this regard because one is coming from a low base and then, having built it up, to announce cuts across the board, with which they must deal. One can imagine such persons stating in frustration that they will cease such activities and asking the reason they should do this for the HSE or the Government. It does not matter who one states is responsible, as people with disabilities will lose services. The aforementioned small organisation is efficiently run and has approximately three staff in the office. From where is the 1% cut to come in this case? Should one person from the office be lost? Although the service is trimmed to the bone, the cut is to be made across the board.

While I am no expert on efficiencies and cost cutting, I discussed the matter with someone who is. I asked him how one should make savings in times when it is necessary to so do, while insisting that savings of 1% should be made in one area while savings of 40% should be made in another. He told me the organisations which run the HSE and other Departments were incapable of micromanaging at that level. They simply lack the competence to state one organisation should not experience any cutbacks, while another should face cuts of 5%. Therefore, they opt for simple adjustments such as savings of 1% across the board. As I noted previously, this means that it makes no difference, whether one cuts a neurosurgeon or a porter.

All the predictions made during the debate on the Disability Act have come to pass. I am uncertain how to make adjustments in this regard. For the first time ever, people with disabilities, even those with profound disabilities, were becoming involved in society and their communities. Were these cuts to be implemented — obviously they will be — there would be a huge reversal in this regard. If the funding allocated until 2016 is to be played out at a rate of 2% per year, less than the rate of inflation, will that, in effect, constitute a cut? Because a guesstimate was made in the context of an allocation of €19 billion, it seemed to be an enormous sum of money. An inflation rate of 3% would be low, given the rates experienced in the past two years.

I also welcome Mr. Dolan, Mr. Dunne and Ms McCarthy. In the main, my contribution will consist of comments, rather than questions. One aspect they have highlighted is the important but unrecognised role of voluntary organisations. All members are aware of the tremendous role played by such organisations, in fund-raising in particular. Apart from providing a valuable service, they are a great and necessary support for many in the disability sector. All sides agree their work must be supported because they face great challenges.

I am concerned the HSE and voluntary organisations may be working separately and that a partnership approach is lacking. As Mr. Dolan noted, such organisations have tremendous expertise and a long track record of service delivery. Their role in communities in promoting and developing community acceptance and understanding of people with disabilities has been invaluable. To move forward, the HSE must adopt a partnership approach when working with voluntary organisations. There must be mutual respect because otherwise, we will go nowhere.

In addition, I refer to the necessity of respecting the dignity of the human being. A partnership approach affords people the opportunity to be the best they possibly can be, given the circumstances in which they find themselves. People who are supported can live their lives with dignity and have such dignity respected. All members would agree with this. I also agree that allocated resources should be ring-fenced. Members had a similar discussion a couple of weeks ago on palliative care. The new Minister of State has a tremendous interest in this area and is committed to ensuring he does the best he can for disability services. I am hopeful he will give members a favourable hearing in this regard.

In his presentation Mr. Dolan mentioned a gap in service provision. The representatives should highlight locations where service provision is worse than in others or where there are areas of best practice, as so doing might afford a learning opportunity to members.

I also wish to be associated with the welcome extended to our friends. We all acknowledge the lobbying skills of the Disability Federation of Ireland. In saying that, I do not patronise Mr. Dolan. I have often said to him that he needs to be as competitive as ever and this year the challenge is different. We are all saying that in different ways. I was interested in the comment on page 2 of the submission that the Disability Federation of Ireland is aware of the serious downturn in the economy. Mr. Dolan has obviously been listening to George Lee and that is fair enough. To be serious, it is easy for politicians to sound patronising when they talk about looking after the disadvantaged and the vulnerable but that is what we should be doing.

I related to Mr. Dolan before the meeting that I receive calls regularly about the Health Service Executive. A particular family contacted me yesterday about a disabled 17 year old child who was adopted. I do not relate the story in a flippant way. The family was told by the HSE that he does not have a school place next September. That is absolutely disgraceful. The mother said to me in a joking way that perhaps the best thing she could do would be to send her adopted child back to the HSE. While picking on the vulnerable might be good politics from the HSE's point of view — I do not impugn its motives — that approach should not be taken. All of us, even on the Government benches, must speak out and say when wrong decisions are taken and that they must be reversed. I am not afraid to say that. We are all entitled to our political persuasion and this is a political place but at a committee level there has always been a different kind of co-operation and in so far as it is possible, that should continue. I am clear about the support I wish to offer to the Disability Federation of Ireland and the disabled community.

I am not sure whether the Chairman is expecting me to ask a question. There has been much talk about the €50 million and having met Mr. Dolan and his colleagues last week I raised the matter in the Dáil. What else can we do in that regard? As far as I am concerned, if money is allocated for a definite purpose, it should be used for that purpose. I will not deviate from that in any way. It is always a challenge to get funding, but we must bear in mind that this is an even more challenging year than usual and that one must compete against other demands. The situation is made more difficult when the cake to be shared out is shrinking. What can we all do in partnership to ensure disability services do not suffer unduly, and that if there are cuts or budget adjustments, that they are at least fair and that we continue to properly-fund and resource front-line services? We should not pick on the vulnerable. I am prepared to do all I can to ensure that does not happen. I am no different to my better known, esteemed Opposition colleagues in that regard.

Not better known.

Members may have noticed I did not mention Tallaght much.

I was wondering whether Deputy O'Connor was unwell.

We were all somewhat taken aback by the fact that he did not mention Tallaght.

I wish to refer briefly to page 9 of the submission. The independent monitoring group on A Vision for Change published its report last Friday and it was absolutely scathing in its content. I do not know whether the witnesses have seen the report yet. Thirteen negative conclusions were made by the monitoring group.

To give an indication of the tone of the report, the first conclusion referred to the absence of clear, identifiable leadership within the HSE to implement A Vision for Change. The monitoring group considered that the HSE was mistaken in its decision not to implement the recommendation to establish a national mental health service director to drive the changes recommended. The monitoring group did not believe the administration arrangements the HSE has put in place are appropriate to the scale of the change required. The monitoring group noted that the HSE appointed a director of cancer services in 2007 to lead the implementation of the national cancer strategy and that the reform of the mental health services requires a similar approach. We are as likely to get that as I will not say what. On two occasions in its reports, the monitoring committee has been absolutely scathing of the approach to the implementation of A Vision for Change but that seems to have no effect on the thinking of the HSE.

The Minister has expressed frustration at the diversion of funds allocated for the development of A Vision for Change. She said what was happening was not right and that she would address the HSE on the matter. I hope we will be able to question her on the progress she has made. The report of the monitoring committee included 13 conclusions and 13 recommendations. Last year's recommendations were totally ignored by the HSE and it seems there is no commitment to implement the recommendations on A Vision for Change. The sooner we realise that the better. I was surprised at the little coverage the report received in the national media. That confirms how little attention psychiatric services and the need to develop them are given by anybody, let alone the Government.

The points made by Deputy Neville are very pertinent. Perhaps we might arrange a future meeting with the relevant personnel from the HSE to discuss that report.

Perhaps we could invite somebody from the monitoring committee on the same day.

Certainly.

I apologise for being late as I had another meeting to attend. It is important to recognise the improvements that have been made to services. For example, there was a substantial increase in funding and personnel. Successive Governments have been committed to ensuring that disability services do not suffer when there is a downturn in the economy. I hope that will continue to be the case.

I am the first to recognise that there is much more to be done. Twenty years ago when I was Minister for Health I used to say we would never be able to satisfy demand and if we satisfied need we would be doing well. Today we are still not able to satisfy demand, even in the good times. That is something we have to keep in mind. We need to prioritise what we are going to do.

If money is allocated for a service, it must go to that particular service. We all accept that. The main issue today is how we move forward. My concerns relate to two fronts. Mr. Dolan referred to engagement with the HSE to see how efficiencies can be found in the delivery of services. That does not just apply to disability; it applies right across the board. Given that €15 billion is spent on the health service it is important that we all involve ourselves in how we can get more efficiency for the money spent. In all health services there is an overlap between the different divisions. It was easier to spot where money was going before the HSE was established as many of the agencies were funded directly by the Department of Health and Children. Because of the overlap in various services it is difficult to pinpoint the exact amount that is going to any particular area, be it disability, cancer treatment or a whole range of services.

I would like to see the engagement Mr. Dolan referred to with the HSE take place. It is important that everybody knows exactly what is happening, why it is happening and that people discuss how the funding is apportioned. Against that background I will be asking the HSE to engage directly with the agencies.

Mr. Dolan referred to the individual agencies. I am not sure whether it would be possible to meet with agencies individually because of the multiplicity of them but there is no reason a general meeting with disability service bodies cannot be arranged. I would be happy to talk to the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, to bring to his attention the points raised here today.

I apologise for having to leave, although I was present for the presentation.

My main point concerns the release of funding this year. I submitted a parliamentary question in this regard, possibly in May, and it was sent to various sections of the HSE for a response. I have received an answer from only one of the sections, namely, the one responsible for Clare, Limerick and north Tipperary. It states the development moneys for disability services have not been received to date. This is the case everywhere given that I received an e-mail today from an individual in Dublin who is concerned about people leaving Setanta special school for children with autism without their having anywhere to go. She lists the individuals in question and the cost of providing the required services. Similar circumstances obtain throughout the country.

When the Minister and Professor Drumm were before the committee, the Minister said she was ring-fencing money for development purposes and that permission would have be obtained from her Department regarding the spending by the HSE of any money designated for such purposes. Just as we were told in no uncertain terms that €3 million would be ring-fenced to develop new hospices this year, a similar commitment should be made regarding disability services and mental health services. If not, it is because the Department and the Minister are saying it is alright for the HSE to spend the money in another area.

We should demand that the moneys be ring-fenced and that the money for new services for young school leavers who have nowhere to go be released for the purpose for which it was voted by the Oireachtas and for which the Government decided it was to be spent. The HSE is not supposed to be the policy-maker but the organisation that delivers on policy. This committee should convey to the Department of Health and Children that the money has not been distributed to the disability services, as was the intention of the Oireachtas.

I congratulate Mr. Dolan on his succinct presentation. I am sorry I had to leave to vote in the Seanad.

This committee has a great opportunity to deal with this issue head to head. It is not good enough that we do not implement the legislation we pass and the strategies we put in place; it is absolutely appalling. This committee, under the chairmanship of Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl, will go gung ho in supporting Mr. Dolan on this matter.

I apologise because I must leave shortly to attend the Order of Business in the Dáil.

Let me pick up on Deputy O'Hanlon's comment on demand and need. Mr. Dolan has outlined a demand in respect of which a response is needed. It is entirely different to talk about expectation. The Disability Federation of Ireland is not referring to an expectation that does not represent need — it does represent need.

I fully support Deputy O'Hanlon regarding the need to seek clarity from the HSE. Clarity is lacking time and again. Nobody seems to be able to tell us where the money has gone, when it was spent, what it was used for and who made the decision thereon. In respect of decisions, one must ask who made them, why they were made, what they cost and, most important, how they impacted on patient care. This committee, with co-operation from all sides, should seek to obtain these answers from the HSE. If we cannot obtain them here, where can we do so?

Many of the questions were rhetorical. Perhaps the delegates will respond to some of the specific ones.

Mr. John Dolan

There were some specific questions and I will try to deal with them. There has been much discussion this afternoon about the committee and the Minister, and about frustration with certain issues. I will address the points made by Senator White, Deputy Reilly and others. While I do not understand the ebb and flow of different Oireachtas committees and their various responsibilities, this committee should be a powerhouse for pushing, in whatever way it can, for a solution to this issue.

The issue affecting us is not simply the desire to fund disability services; it primarily concerns the will of the Oireachtas being frustrated, in one way or another, when money enters the executive system. This phenomenon is extreme and pinching us very hard. The members will have heard from others that they, too, are being pinched. Therefore, I am not stating one case is better than the other.

We need to obtain the committee's support. We will be very happy to work with it and any other group in this regard. The funding quantum will still be an issue. I am not ducking this and the federation will be back before any new Government giving out about the amount of funding granted at any particular time. For God's sake, the money that is voted is surely sacrosanct, unless the Government chooses to change its mind. Until it does, the moneys should be spent as proposed.

Deputy Lynch referred to the Disability Act and rights-based provisions. The outcome regarding the assessment of need and the aggregate of need was regarded as a deal breaker. The Government said it cannot go down the rights route and outlined its proposed approach. If it breaks faith with this, how can anyone trust any administrative solution to a problem affecting government and services? It must stick to its approach. We took it on good faith that the assessments would be made over a number of years, after which we would backfill. If the bucks are not available, one cannot backfill.

Let us be clear that what are being dressed up as efficiencies are cuts. The money is going out of the disability sector. Deputy O'Hanlon returned to my point that the federation would welcome and be happy to sit down with staff from the HSE. We do not get officials in the other seat to sit down and talk to us about how we can make the money go further. We are now being told efficiencies are important, but this is because somebody is stuck for money somewhere else. We are not being told about efficiencies because the HSE wants the money to go further for disabled people. There is therefore a breach of faith in that the authorities are saying one thing and going in a different direction. This does not and will not work.

I might think I run an efficient organisation but somebody could ask whether I have thought of certain approaches. We can all do this in our own housekeeping and have people take another look at procedures and help us. However, to say one is helping someone with a view to robbing that person is not acceptable.

Deputy Lynch referred to competencies. It is argued that cutting funding for everybody is fair but the removal of the ground from under everybody does not represent good decision-making.

I thank Deputy O'Connor for his remarks. In respect of the €50 million, he asked what else Members of the Oireachtas can do. They must face up to the issue of who makes decisions. In hurling parlance, one must face the puck out. We are very frustrated at hearing Oireachtas Members say they voted moneys and are peed off that they have not gone where they were supposed to go. They will have to stick at it harder than that.

Deputy Neville referred to A Vision for Change and I was reminded of monitoring arrangements for a new deal. It is being treated like the reports of the former inspector of mental hospitals, Mr. Dermot Walsh, as if the ink never hit the paper. It is more in sadness than anything else that I make that comment. It is the same old story.

Concerning the quantum of funding and the relationship with the HSE, it does not seem to have the capacity to sit down and go through matters. It moves from one matter to the next every day. We are seeking the committee's collective assistance in the matter of who makes the decisions and who must implement them.

I would not want anyone to think people do not appreciate the changes in services for disabled persons. We are getting paranoid that they could go down the tubes. I do not believe this will happen but many organisations and families are concerned the great ground that has been made up could be lost. We are looking for the capacity to exercise one's ordinary human rights — to be out and about and to go to the library. That is not too much to ask.

Ms Joanne McCarthy

On the question of how gaps in services can be examined geographically, the independent assessment of need will provide us with much detailed information which we have been missing to date. The NPS has a national physical and sensory disability database, as well as the NIID. As the NPS database is voluntary, not everyone with a disability will be included in it. Its annual report demonstrates significant gaps in a wide range of services. It only demonstrates needs and does not capture the full details. The same applies to the NIID database. There is the census and disability report which should give us some indication. The NIID report makes shocking reading.

It behoves the committee to work on the issues raised. I hope it will be able to invite the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Moloney, and the relevant officials from the HSE to discuss the points made. Members will also raise the matters individually.

The committee must have greater clout than an individual member. If it does not, we might as well throw our hats in the ring. Rather than have the Minister of State attend first, it might be better to bring the HSE official responsible for disability services before the committee. The section of the Department of Health and Children responsible for the delivery of services to people with disabilities must also be invited. They must be asked what is happening. We need information.

We need answers.

I propose the committee ask them where the €50 million has gone.

I support that proposal. Whenever HSE officials attend the committee, they are all nice people and it is a good corporate group. However, one tends not to gain access to the people who make the decisions. The HSE does a good PR job on its good days. The committee must identify the people with whom it should deal with and get them to attend. I would not dismiss the idea of having the Minister of State attend. The committee must take advantage of his good will.

I am not dismissing him. It would be as good for him to have this information.

I would not presume he does not have it.

I would not assume that either. We often assume Ministers receive information but as members will know, very often that is not the case. It is our job as a committee to ferret out the information. Those responsible in both the Department and the HSE must attend. Before, when only one attended, they claimed it was the other who was responsible.

The point is well made. The committee is agreed on this. The clerk will issue an invitation to the bodies concerned. The committee will make the official report of the meeting available to the Minister of State and indicate it wants to meet him at an early date.

Mr. John Dolan

The 1% cuts are not coming from the disability section of the HSE but from senior management and the PCCC and are across the system.

We made this argument about a different sector. The people responsible for the delivery of services to persons with disabilities have an obligation to argue their case.

I take the point. I thank the delegation for its presentation. I hope our engagement will be productive and that we will work closely together to advance this and future issues.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 3 July 2008.
Top
Share