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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 7 Oct 2008

Psychological Services: Discussion with Irish Association of Psychologists in Mental Health.

I welcome Dr. Eoin Galavan and his associates from the Irish Association of Psychologists in Mental Health. In due course, Dr. Galavan, you may introduce the members of your delegation. Before you do so, I draw your attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not extend to yourselves. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members may ask questions at the end of the presentation.

Dr. Galavan, you are very welcome. Perhaps you would introduce your colleagues and proceed with your presentation.

Dr. Eoin Galavan

Thank you, Chairman, for inviting us to address the joint committee. We are very glad to be able to give you a presentation. My colleagues are Dr. Michael Byrne, Dr. Adam Meiselman, Dr. Sheila Kissane and Dr. Gráinne Kelly. We are members of the committee of the Irish Association of Psychologists in Mental Health, IAPMH, which was set up in June 2007. At that time there was a sense of unease at the lack of progress in rolling out A Vision for Change and a national meeting of psychologists was sponsored by the Mental Health Commission. One of the needs identified at the meeting was for a professional body to represent the psychologists working in the child and adult mental health services nationally. Our committee is made up of people who represent both child and adult services throughout the country.

We would like to make two short presentations to the committee. Dr. Michael Byrne and Dr. Adam Meiselman will take about 15 minutes in doing so. We would be happy to answer members' questions afterwards.

Dr. Michael Byrne

I believe members have been given a lengthier version of my PowerPoint presentation.

Slide No. 4 highlights the recommended macro structures in mental health services. Most commentators, including the World Health Organisation, recommend that we develop a robust primary care mental health service where the majority of mental health presentations are catered for.

Secondary mental health care services ought to be developed, including community mental health teams and community-based residential care. Those services would facilitate individuals with severe and enduring problems. There ought to be institutional services for those who need more specific, specialised input. In a phased model one starts in primary care. I suppose the historical starting point for services in Ireland is in the 1960s when Ireland would have had the highest rate of hospitalisation for psychiatric care in the world. Hence much of our resources for mental health would have been absorbed into the psychiatric hospital system. There has been a subsequent and ongoing process of de-institutionalisation since, and now 1.5 per 1,000 population are in hospital, which is still one of the highest hospitalisation rates in the world.

The roll-out of community-based services under our mental health policy, A Vision for Change, describes how we need to develop a robust community-based service. However, resources are scarce and there are also concerns from multiple sources that the funding is not forthcoming to fund the roll-out of A Vision for Change.

Possibly even more problematic are the primary care mental health services which seem to have been "ignored", although that might be too strong a word. In the roll-out of the primary care strategy, there does not seem to be any mental health specific care services in the community. Relative to what is recommended, commentators might suggest that mental health services in Ireland are somewhat inadequate but also imbalanced. Reflecting the needs of service users with a diverse range of needs, it behoves us to provide multidisciplinary care and it is well recognised that clinical psychology is a core component or fundamental building block of such care. That has been recognised in all Western public health systems. All leading bodies such as the Mental Health Commission, the World Health Organisation and the Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health in the UK, and the National Institute for Clinical Excellence guidelines in the UK, recommend that clinical psychology be a core component of this care. The experience of service users is that their presentations are predominantly treated using a biological or medical model with little regard for psychological or social models of mental health. To adequately address the needs of service users, there is a need for a bio-psycho-social model of mental health that gives equal weighting to the often profession-specific divergent models of mental health.

How do we fill this void of the lack of psychological therapies both in primary and secondary care? It is important to highlight that clinical psychologists are unique in the sense that they are custom trained by the HSE, and are funded by it during their three-year doctoral programme. They work across a broad range of care populations using a broad range of psychological theories. Relative to other psychological practitioners who possibly operate only out of a single theoretical model or have limited diagnostic skills, psychologists can operate across all three levels of psychological service. They do not just operate through basic supportive, treatment, manualised or protocol work, but also through complex mental health presentations using a broad range of models.

It is important to highlight that the clinical psychology skill set is unique. The use of psychometric batteries is very important in trying to assess complex presentations. We are unique in that we work using scientifically-informed formulations or what might be called integrated maps of how clients have got to where they are. We also provide evidence-based effective and value for money interventions that my colleague, Dr. Adam Meiselman, will elaborate on further.

In other jurisdictions, clinical consultancy relating to training and supervision of other psychological approaches is a well established practice. Given our training across multiple health populations from infancy to older adults and also across services, we have a good understanding of the need to provide an integrated service to users. Dr. Meiselman will elaborate on how psychologists are often missing from the multitude of mental health teams that exist and are proposed to exist in the country as per A Vision for Change.

Dr. Adam Meiselman

Will members please look at slide No. 14 in the handout? With the lack of psychologists in situ, many clients do not have access to psychological treatments. The question is what happens to those clients. What is the outcome for clients because of the lack of this service? A psychiatrist colleague of mine put it very simply — clients suffer. They suffer in particular ways which causes a great problem for all of us and ends up costing a great deal more money.

With the lack of psychological services there is an increased risk of harm to self or others. Clients are not getting access to care and their condition deteriorates. This increases the risk to the individual and, in some cases, to others, and in general the client gets worse. Because they get worse, they disproportionately end up coming back into in-patient care resulting in an increase in-patient admissions because we are not treating them effectively. Some people cannot cope with their mental difficulties and end up losing their job. They might lose their family. In the case of children, a child might not finish school or might start to have other difficulties that will set the stage for a very difficult later life. All of this accumulates and results in many more people needing to avail of Government assistance.

Let us now turn to slides Nos. 19 and 20 in the handout. There have been quite a few studies in the west looking at how psychological treatments save the health service money. The studies vary in the amount of savings but they tend to range between 10% and 50%, particularly when they focus on disorders where treatment by a psychologist is particularly effective, such as depression, anxiety, personality disorders and other common disorders. Savings are made when compared with the system that is in place which is a medical-oriented system involving psychopharmacology, medication and visits to a psychiatrist and psychiatric nurse. The studies find savings of between 10% and 50% and the average tends to be around 30%.

To understand why these findings occur and why there are savings it is important to understand an often misunderstood concept: medication is a palliative treatment in mental health, it is not curative. When I say palliative I refer to the reduction of symptoms, not curing a problem and because of this a person will be linked to the medication to keep the symptoms at bay. If they go off the medication the symptoms will, most often, return. This is a complicated issue that we will not go into in detail but this is one of the basics savings we have found. When one uses a psychological treatment for a disorder that shows efficacy, meaning it is effective for that disorder, it is time-limited. The medication is not time-limited and the studies have found savings after just two years of going through the process. However, many people are maintained on medication for ten, 20 or 30 years so the savings are far greater than those shown by the studies.

It is important to understand the factors that contribute to these savings. Psychological interventions are time-limited and highly effective for many disorders. In some cases medication is not even a legitimate option for certain disorders and will not be effective. Evidence shows that the best treatment for disorders such as anxiety, some trauma-based problems and personality disorders is psychological intervention. Best practice in those cases indicates that we should take that route, regardless of cost, however, it also turns out to be cheaper.

By treating specific problems with psychological treatments more people are kept out of inpatient care, due to a lower drop out rate from treatment. The psychological treatment can have a better effect because it is more curative and not just palliative. An analogy might be helpful in understanding the meanings of the words curative and palliative. If a person went to a physician complaining of very bad headaches and a pain-killer was prescribed the headaches would go away and this would be fine, for a while. However, the person would keep coming back to get a prescription for a pain-killer and the underlying issue of the cause of the headache would be ignored. This does not happen because physicians assess situations thoroughly. The physician may discover that the person's eyesight has deteriorated and that the cause of the headache is the fact that the person spends 12 hours a day in front of a computer screen. Psychological treatment looks behind the symptoms of a problem to find its cause. Medication deals only with symptoms and if we continue to do this we will spend a great deal on medication over time.

Many people drop out of treatment because they are put on medication and research finds that because of this they do not get help, their problems get worse and they end up, in disproportionate numbers, as inpatients. In 2006 this was estimated as costing €434 per day, so the medication and inpatient area is where many savings are being made.

With staff that can provide evidence-based treatment that works and will save the health service money, it would make sense to roll out A Vision for Change further and put psychologists into community mental health teams, where they have not yet been. This would be a financially responsible and medically prudent thing to do. With this understood, between 2005 and 2007 development teams were created in the health services and certain psychology posts were part of those teams. The problem is the recruitment embargo, of which we have heard much, kicked in and many of these posts were blocked. The moneys were then redirected to deal with overruns so few of the posts created in recent years were filled. This created a difficult problem. In addition to making room in the system for psychologists we must figure out how to ensure posts that are created come to fruition.

Dr. Eoin Galavan

I invite questions from members on our presentation.

I thank the delegation for the presentation. Is A Vision for Change dead as a document? Some €51 million was allocated in 2006 and 2007 and €27 million of this was spent on A Vision for Change. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy John Moloney, informed me last week that just €3 million will be spent this year, bringing the total to €30 million. At this rate the €51 million will take nine years to roll out. There was no allocation this year; the Minister said, "why would I allocate it to them when they would not spend it on what I allocated it for?" She was referring to the HSE and she had a point. She allocated €51 million and, through the Freedom of Information Act, the Mental Health Coalition discovered it had not been spent as was intended. She may never have known where the money went had it not been for the actions of the Mental Health Coalition.

Could the delegates tell us the number of qualified psychologists in the health service, in hospitals, and in communities and the number of multidisciplinary teams recommended by A Vision for Change? I want to understand the current position on psychology because A Vision for Change referred to multidisciplinary teams. In fact, Planning for the Future, in 1984, referred to multidisciplinary teams. The use of multidisciplinary teams has been policy since 1984 but we have been informed by various non-governmental organisations, NGOs, that there is not a single full multidisciplinary team in Ireland. There are partial multidisciplinary teams in certain areas.

Many promises were made in the area of child and adolescent psychiatry. We have heard of appointments that may have been made but we cannot identify if this is the case and where they are made. We are told there are many child and adolescent psychiatrists coming on stream but will this happen? Can the delegates comment on the speed at which psychiatric services for children and young adults, is progressing?

I wish to speak briefly on the psychological therapies forum; the delegates were not members of this but the Irish College of Psychiatry was. It issued a report around two weeks ago called Public Protection and it is an excellent document on regulating the area of therapy. The delegates have not referred to therapists, psychotherapy and other therapies. In a multidisciplinary team family therapy and occupational therapy are very important. The delegates did not touch on the therapeutic area of psychiatric services and perhaps it could do so.

I thank the delegation and apologise for being late. I have read the submission and the material sent to Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. I also apologise on behalf of Deputy O'Sullivan for her absence.

I know of two people who presented at psychiatric units needing help. There was no room and no clinician was available so they were sent home and both committed suicide. I was clearing out some items for a jumble sale the other day and I found a copy of Planning for the Future. I read the parts which related to mental health in anticipation of the meeting today. It staggers me that we knew at that time what was necessary. We knew what people needed, we had a plan and we knew how best to operate it. The delegation before us, however, tells us it will not happen and that confounds me.

We are coming out of the greatest period in Ireland's history for wealth creation and we still cannot take in people who desperately need help. I also meet people whose families believe they need help but who do not believe it themselves and that creates a difficulty. When people present in need of help and are turned away that is a greater crime. I do not know what we have to do as politicians, carers, families, clinicians and as a community to convince the Minister for Health and Children that we need to plan for the future. I do not know how we can convince her of what is necessary and how it can be put in place. People in the area do not expect everything to be done by next week, month or year but we expect the building blocks to be put in place so that it will be done in the future.

I know what my priority is but if the delegates were to prioritise an action in the coming year which could form the foundation for a service involving multidisciplinary teams within the community, what would it involve? If the Minister said they could have the necessary funding — which is unlikely — what would the priority be for the next 12 months? How do we prevent people who know they need help from being turned away? I am not sure such matters are anybody's fault but I want to know how we can stop it from happening.

I thank the Chairman. I thank the association for its presentation. I agree with everything said but one of the more important points was to highlight the fact that the value of the service lies in the prescription of medication for palliative, rather than curative purposes. No country in the world can provide the level of funding to meet the demand for services, so we must ensure we continue to meet needs.

The gaps in the service at present seem to be in the area of early intervention. Children who have autism, for example, seem to be diagnosed rather late. There also seems to be a difficulty in respect of people between the ages of 16 and 18, some of which is caused by the fact that, for whatever reason, professionals draw a demarcation line to define a person up to age 16 as a child and one of age 18 as an adult, with a gap in regard to people in the intervening bracket.

In light of the fact that extra funding will not be available in the next year or two, what co-ordination exists among different levels of the psychological service? I have often felt the psychological service should be totally integrated, including educational psychologists. The same people need the service, whether it is diagnosis or treatment, so a more integrated approach between the two is desirable. What do the delegates regard as priorities for an area which has limited resources? How do they see the service moving forward?

I too welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentation. It concerns me greatly when money allocated to a service is not used or is subsumed into another area. It is wholly inappropriate that money allocated to a service is not used, wherever it ends up. The psychiatric service was considered, for far too long, the poor relation for health funding. If we do nothing today other than ringfence money so that the amounts designated for psychiatric services are spent in that area then that would be a good day's work.

The 1960s were mentioned and we have come a long way since then. There have been huge changes and many of them for the better. I previously spoke, at a meeting of this committee, of an era when people went into psychiatric hospitals and spent their entire life there, never seeing the light of day and only coming out in a box. That was wholly inappropriate.

I have huge concerns about the direction we are taking in several respects. One example involves people who present with eating disorders. I have had personal experience in recent months of a young adult who presented with an eating disorder and ended up being dealt with by five different hospitals. At no stage was a care or treatment plan discussed with her. She was admitted and put on an intravenous drip and, once she was fit to eat, she was sent home. Her treatment only papered over the cracks but every time she presented she was more ill than she had been on the previous occasion. It is a very difficult disorder and she needed specialist treatment but the treatment was not there for her.

I was a teacher for many years and have always felt one has a duty of care to people in one's charge. It is up to whoever is in charge of treatment to make sure a patient receives the treatment as appropriate. The girl's parents were at their wits' end and did not know where to turn to do the right thing. They felt their daughter was dying in front of them and nobody was there to help. The girl was eventually admitted to a psychiatric hospital but it was an inappropriate setting and she did not get the level of treatment she needed or deserved. Thankfully, she is now improving but it is clear that, while we have come a long way, there seem to be areas in which we are going backwards rather than forward.

The presentation also highlighted the issue of suicide, particularly youth suicide. More people die by suicide than by road accidents but a greater emphasis is placed on driving safely. The Dunne report will be presented to the Minister today. We know of unfortunate people who are at their wits' end and do not know where to turn. In some cases people have gone for help, found no one to listen to them or help them and could not see a way out of the dark abyss in which they found themselves. Unfortunately, such cases often have fatal consequences.

Out of hours services are totally unsatisfactory. It is not a matter of working longer so much as working smarter. Deputy O'Hanlon spoke about education and health. They work at completely opposite ends. One would think they were on different planets when one hears of people who need psychological services in the arenas of health and education. It appears that never the twain shall meet. The health and education services do not work as a team. Huge efficiencies could be created if people would only devise a teamwork approach to provide necessary interventions and remembered that providing a service for the patient is most important.

Deputy Neville mentioned the lack of multidisciplinary teams. Where is there a model of best practice that could be replicated throughout the country? In the delegates' estimation, how many psychology posts need to be filled to bring the service to an appropriate level? Community mental health is the way to go. People want to live in the community but if they are to do so they must have the necessary supports and services.

I have read the IAPMH document and have met the association on previous occasions. It is depressing to read the document and listen to the delegation. We are all aware of the facts. Can the delegation confirm that educational psychologists take a different route from mental health psychologists with regard to expertise? One would not expect an educational psychologist to work in St. Ita's Hospital, for example.

As the delegation has outlined, money put aside for A Vision for Change was hived off elsewhere. Posts which were advertised were not filled and we have a huge deficiency in psychological services in our mental health service. As a general practitioner, I fully acknowledge and respect the value of psychological services. I agree with the delegation on the issue of medication. It works "in conjunction with" and not "instead of". Unfortunately, because of the gross deficiency in the service it is being used "instead of" much of the time, and not always with the best results.

The document circulated by the delegation tells the committee what the problems are. It is up to us to put pressure on the Government to ensure that the posts are filled, notwithstanding the financial restrictions we face. I do not want to be too political on this matter. We could talk all day about the number of people who die by suicide. This discussion is particularly poignant for me today, for reasons I will not explain. I am sure the association could give us a three line recommendation regarding how the posts could be filled. We all accept that prevention is better than cure. We have all ready A Vision for Change, which clearly outlines the model. It does not need to be outlined again.

I feel depressed on this side of the House. I know that what the delegation has outlined is the reality. Only yesterday, I dealt with a patient who, fortunately, can be referred privately. A public patient in the same situation would wait a long time before being seen. He or she would have to be processed through the local psychiatric team, which is totally inappropriate. Patients should be able to access psychological and counselling services by direct referral from their general practitioner. I hope the delegation can highlight, in a couple of lines, the big item issues that need to be addressed.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for its submission. The last three pages of the submission speak of making matters worse. This section refers to posts that were lost and raises an important issue. If the Government wants to fund these needed psychologists in mental health is there something this joint committee can do?

I read in the Irish Medical News of 29 September that the HSE has confirmed that over the past four years the disposal of assets within the psychiatric, or mental health, sector has not resulted in a single euro being reinvested in mental health services. This money is parked and the HSE is currently putting together a proposal, which will be presented to the Department of Finance, for its use. I am not a member of this committee, unfortunately. However, I urge the committee to consider making urgent representations to the Departments of Finance and Health and Children. I cannot quantify the sum of money referred to.

There are other tranches of land and property in the pipeline for further disposal allied to our mental health services. There are huge blocs of land in close proximity to major urban centres that will realise, even in today's contracting market, quite a nest egg. Will this money be reinvested in mental health services? The penultimate slide in the presentation posed the question, "Is there something the joint committee can do to help with this issue?" This matter is urgent because the Department of Finance is probably sharpening its knives and looking at several dinner plates on which to scatter its largesse. The money should be ring-fenced for reinvestment. If it is to be reinvested in capital projects instead of in filling positions so be it. People are being treated in unsuitable and out of date facilities which require significant investment. If money has been generated from the disposal of property from within the mental health sector it should be spent within that sector. I commend that as an immediate action.

I would love to have a magic formula to address the need for psychologists, social workers and occupational therapists. It is unlikely that capital will be moved into resourcing day to day needs. At least a quarter of the population will depend on mental health services in our lifetime. I use the inclusive term "our". At least 25% of the people in this room will need this support. This is not just about resourcing. It is about recognising that we all have rights in accessing mental health supports. We are failing miserably unless we as legislators, and the Government in particular, provide the necessary resourcing to fulfil the rights of our citizens in this area.

I thank the delegates for their input and suggest that members of the committee deal with the point that four years' worth of money has been set aside in a piggy bank and may be plundered by another Minister in the very near future.

I assume the association senses the support members have for the points they have made. It is fortuitous that its delegates have attended today because we are in the process of scheduling a meeting with Professor Drumm and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, in which members will be anxious to raise the concerns they have expressed.

Dr. Eoin Galavan

Several members have asked about how many posts there are and how many we need. We will take A Vision for Change as a template and use it as a skeletal model. If there is one clinical psychologist on a multidisciplinary team serving a catchment area of 25,000 people and there are 400 or 500 people in the service, the psychologist can see some of those people but can only provide a skeletal service. We need 156 such clinical psychologists, as outlined in the report of the mental health inspector, but there are only 80 at the moment, so 50% of all the teams serving adults around the country have no clinical psychologist.

In child services the situation is even worse as 150 are required just to provide the skeletal level of one per team, while only 50 are in the system. That leaves a shortfall of over 170 clinical psychologists in the system to even reach a skeletal service. We are asking to be brought up to a level that provides the basic minimum complement because we are far below that at the moment.

Dr. Michael Byrne

The funding of training of clinical psychologists has been very ad hoc and some commentators would say it continues to be so. Up to five years ago there were two training programmes in Ireland, at TCD and UCD, and now we have four, which represents a big jump forward and does credit to the HSE and its predecessor. In 2002 the predicted requirement was 50 clinical psychologists per year but the training for the four programmes is not funded annually so 30 might come out one year and 40 the next. In addition, we now have the primary care strategy, A Vision for Change and the Disability Act 2005, which was implemented last year. We are still playing catch-up in outputting people to the system.

When Dr. Byrne refers to extra posts in the system does he mean in hospitals and in the community?

Dr. Michael Byrne

Yes. Because of the breadth of the training given to clinical psychologists, which includes all the care groups on a cradle-to-grave basis, they do not necessarily go directly into adult or child mental health services. They might work in the area of disability or with children and families. Mental health has to compete for those individuals.

Dr. Eoin Galavan

The mental health service draws psychologists from the training programmes into the system by opening up posts. If no posts are opened up, as happened this year, all the psychologists go into other areas. They are also needed in those areas, of course, but if one wants them to work in mental health one must open up the posts.

Does further training take place for clinical psychologists within the mental health service?

Dr. Eoin Galavan

The standard training of a clinical psychologist involves an honours degree in psychology, usually followed by a masters degree and experience. Then they pursue a three-year doctoral training programme in one of the four locations which were mentioned. The average length of time spent training is between eight and ten years, which is a huge investment in time, knowledge and skill base. The HSE funds the last three years but sometimes does not hire the people it has just trained.

Dr. Adam Meiselman

One of the questions concerned the provision of money for posts at what is a difficult fiscal time. I do not want the committee to see us as coming before it with our hands out, looking for something extra. I would rather members saw us as trying to save money for the health services. Employing psychologists, when they become a critical mass, saves a system money. Our current system does not have these people in place and that costs us more. As we look to save money in the fiscal crisis, we will spend more by not putting these people in place.

Ms Sheila Kissane

I will take the example of a person with an eating disorder. If that person receives treatment which does not work, it costs a lot of money. If a specialist service needs to be developed and there needs to be a psychological component but the money is spent on failed treatment, it is a waste of money. The way the system is set up needs to be looked at and we should not keep doing more of the same.

Dr. Eoin Galavan

In respect of eating disorders, the World Health Organisation recognises the community mental health team as the core component of treatment, and clinical psychologists provide a key component of that treatment. Treating people using a medical model, utilising medication or inpatient treatment, is simply not effective and that is recognised across the world. If one does not recruit people to community mental health teams that is what one ends up relying on. Many psychiatrists and psychiatric nurses who are colleagues of mine agree that this is not a matter of us or them. There is a mutual recognition of the need of all the different disciplines within the multidisciplinary team. They all bring a critical skill set which is absolutely necessary.

Ms Sheila Kissane

We were asked for examples of good practice. In Kilkenny the community mental health team has set up a community-based service which includes family therapists, social workers and psychologists who all work together to keep people out of hospital, and it is successful. There are pockets of good practice but they are very few. We regularly ask the Mental Health Commission for a model but the service is so underdeveloped that many resources go into an archaic system which is very ineffective.

Dr. Adam Meiselman

There was a question about psychotherapists and psychologists and the distinction between the two. Our association is supportive of psychotherapists but not as a replacement for clinical psychologists. Clinical psychologists are trained within and funded by the HSE. They cannot be replaced by other groups which, though they do wonderful work, cannot match the comprehensive ability the psychologist has.

The service works best with a full team, including a psychologist and a family therapist. The psychologist can assess the full comprehensive psychological needs of the client, and the team as a whole can decide how best to proceed. For example, evidence in a particular case might suggest the family therapist was appropriate but in other cases that would not be appropriate. The only person on the team with the ability to make the assessment is the clinical psychologist. Without him or her, a comprehensive clinical assessment cannot be done, which is why the health service funds and trains those psychologists in the first place. They are a core part of the system.

Dr. Eoin Galavan

As Deputy Neville said, a person trained in a school of psychotherapy, such as cognitive behavioural or family therapy, gains a limited focus. On the other hand, a clinical psychologist is trained to work with and recognise a variety of schools of thought around dealing with complex problems. When there is no clinical psychologist other team members, such as the psychiatrist or nurse, apply therapies which are inappropriate. When one takes up a position in a service which has not had a psychologist but has had psychotherapists, one often finds that patients have experienced several iterations of therapies, often unsuccessfully, because the therapy they need has not been assessed by a clinical psychologist. I do not say that other disciplines do not have some understanding of what therapy might fit a person but they cannot match the depth of the assessment of the psychological processing and the psychological development which a person has undergone to get to a certain point. Members of the team might know that CBT is useful for some people with depression so they refer them to the CBT therapist. CBT therapy, however, only has an efficacy rate of 50% and the clinical psychologist is needed for the 50% of people for whom that therapy is not successful. The clinical psychologist can assess why CBT therapy might not be useful for a certain person at a certain time and he or she brings to the team a breadth of knowledge and a skill base which no other discipline in the profession can bring.

When one joins a team which has not had the experience of a clinical psychologist, is it difficult to make one's position understood? Is it possible to work fully with the team, especially those from psychiatry? We have heard that psychotherapists, psychologists and others encounter difficulties with the psychiatric profession, which does not want them on its teams. They should be involved in teams on an equal footing.

Dr. Adam Meiselman

The Deputy raises an interesting point but, in fairness to our psychiatric colleagues, most of them are crying out for more of us and are desperate to have our input. They call us and ask for clients to be sent to see us, even though they know we are overloaded as it is. They are very upset at the lack of psychology input as most of them rely on it.

Many psychiatrists have not worked with a psychologist but that is because there are not many psychologists in the system. As a result, many psychiatrists do not have a full understanding of the discipline. Those trained in a certain era understand its value and the fact that it is evidence-based. We speak a common language, which is another difference between psychotherapists and psychologists. Clinical psychologists can work within and outside the medical model and have the same nomenclature and diagnostic abilities. Many psychiatrists like working with psychologists because they share a common language and can communicate with each other, though they often do not have the opportunity to do so. Other psychiatrists are not sure what to make of the situation because in all of their training in Ireland they never worked with a psychologist.

It is as if one is encroaching on their patch.

Dr. Adam Meiselman

That is an issue but, as my colleagues said, there is plenty of turf. There may be defensive reactions to another discipline but there is plenty to go around and we can work in concert with each other.

Dr. Grainne Kelly

All the points made today have been very valid but I work in a child and adolescent mental health service and we have attended this meeting because parents and children come to us for further input. They are more aware of the psychological therapies which are on offer and the fact that best practice guidelines for mental health urge that people talk about their symptoms. They should allow us to deal with their issues and help them cope with crises and problems. A stigma has prevented ring fencing for mental health and we know from the statistics that it is not a "them or us" situation.

A previous contributor said that we or somebody close to us will encounter these problems so I plead on behalf of clients and their families. Professionals know their stuff and are presenting the issues. Governance, money, people and delivery are needed and they must all come together. As clinicians, our hands are tied unless we can work within an integrated system.

Ms Sheila Kissane

I will address Deputy O'Hanlon's point that professionals themselves were sometimes responsible for a lack of co-ordination, such as in classifying people between 16 and 18 in a different way. We are trying to work towards a position where psychologists are managed under one department, so that there is greater integration among all who work in child and family services and adult services. In that scenario, an assessment comes into the psychology team and the team decides who is best to offer the service. When a team is set up and manages itself it can be difficult because, if each sets its own criteria, many people fall between the gaps. While a psychologist should be part of a particular team, he or she should also be part of a broader psychology team which will decide which service is best to meet a person's needs. In that way, we can avoid the situation where a team refuses to see a person, if he or she is over 16 or 18.

How many psychologists are there in the HSE and how many in private practices?

Dr. Eoin Galavan

The number in private practice is probably unquantifiable. One would have to differentiate between psychologists and psychotherapists as there are a huge number of psychotherapists and counsellors, such as the group proposing registration as therapists. Clinical psychology is a specialty in which people are trained specifically to work in the mental health service and clinical psychologists are much more numerous in the public service than in private practice.

I thank the association for its presentation. We look forward to engaging with Professor Drumm and the Minister on the issues the delegates have raised. Concern about ring-fenced funding is shared across the disability sector and it is repugnant to members on all sides of the House that money allocated for a specific purpose should be used for any other purpose. We have learned a great deal from the delegates and look forward to engaging with them at some time in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 21 October 2008.
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