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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2009

Irish Dental Association.

I welcome Mr. Fintan Hourihan, Dr. Ciara Scott, Dr. Helen Walsh, Dr. Jane Renehan, Dr. Maurice Quirke and Dr. Rosarii McCafferty of the Irish Dental Association. I remind them that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I assume the delegation is familiar with the format. We are glad to have received a detailed paper from the association. I ask Mr. Hourihan to present a three-minute synopsis of it. We would be grateful if the members of the delegation could then answer members' questions.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I thank the Chairman for his invitation to address the committee today. The Irish Dental Association's detailed submission reflects its great concern at the lack of understanding of dentistry, dentists and their patients. I propose to draw the committee's attention to a number of the specific challenges in the dentistry sector. I will also offer an insight into the association's commitment to enhancing the care it offers patients.

Good oral health is an integral part of the overall health of the population. Healthy mouths, gums and teeth are essential for everyone. In my brief presentation, I wish to focus on the haemorrhaging of dentists from the medical card scheme, which is designed to cater for the neediest members of society. I also wish to highlight certain difficulties in the provision of services to children and special needs patients who are seen by HSE dentists. It is no exaggeration to suggest that we are seeing a crisis in community care for patients. The number of dentists who treat at least ten medical card patients a month has decreased to approximately 700. One third of dentists do not participate in any way in the medical card scheme. There are blackspots, where few dentists participate in the scheme, in many parts of the country. Patients in such areas have to travel great distances to be seen for treatment.

It is unacceptable that significant waiting lists of patients who are waiting to be seen by general practitioners are being allowed to develop. Some 1,500 adults are waiting to be treated in Sligo. The number of dentists in County Meath who participate in the medical card scheme decreased from 36 to seven over a short period of time. Such developments reflect the State's inability to fund this service adequately. Difficulties have arisen because it is considered that a review of the scheme, in partnership with the Irish Dental Association, might be contrary to the Competition Act 2002. I am sure the committee has heard plenty about that. As no State funding is available for investment in dental practice facilities, improvements have to be funded solely from funds generated by dentists. The dental profession is unique in this regard, as no other profession is expected to develop and enhance its practice facilities without State funding or assistance.

It is instructive to compare the funding that is made available when medical card patients are treated by dentists to the funding that is made available when the same patients are treated by medical general practitioners. The average payment to each participating doctor in the general medical services scheme is over €190,000, whereas the average payment to each dentist is just €40,000. The State offers allowances and grants of approximately €60,000 to each doctor, but it offers nothing to dentists. The total amount of money paid to dentists — more than €55 million — is equivalent to the amount it pays in respect of the employment of secretarial and nursing staff by general practitioners. I emphasise that the Irish Dental Association believes that the level of funding given to general practitioners is entirely appropriate. The association is calling for steps to be taken to bring funding for dentists to a similar level, at least, thereby enhancing services for patients in better facilities and offering a wider range of treatments. Child dental services in the HSE have been rationed over a number of years. It is not an exaggeration to state that the association believes that services for adults are about to be similarly rationed. In short, we expect that the provision of dentures to patients will be rationed, as a result of the inadequate funding of this sector.

The short-sighted decision made by the Government in this year's budget to restrict tax relief on dental work will result in poorer levels of oral health. Tax relief on all medical expenses has been capped at 20% since the beginning of this month. This measure is deterring and unfairly penalising patients who require dental work. In effect, it cuts in half the only support offered by the State to many dentists who receive no other support or funding. We believe the relief should be restored at the higher rate to better promote oral health. The Government recently decided to amend the Competition Acts to enable the Irish Medical Organisation to represent general practitioners in negotiations with the Health Service Executive and the Department of Health and Children. The same principle of partnership should be applied to enable the Irish Dental Association to engage directly with the HSE and the Department. In the case of the IMO, the Government believes direct engagement is "necessary and desirable" so that primary care can be improved in the interests of "the overall efficacy of the public health system".

When I read a summary of the presentation the HSE made to the joint committee yesterday, I noted the absence of any reference to oral health. Unfortunately, this omission is symptomatic of the total lack of attention the HSE pays to oral health. We would welcome an opportunity to engage with the HSE on the provision of more extensive care for greater numbers of patients through investment, innovation and reform. The IDA wishes to be involved in discussions — our door will always be open. A properly resourced public dental service is necessary if we are to be able to continue to provide dental care to children, adolescents and special needs patients. The restrictions on the employment of dental staff have had a significant and adverse effect on the provision of services by dentists employed by the HSE. The association is seeking an explicit commitment to prioritising the employment of front-line clinical staff. It is calling for the immediate appointment of a senior dentist within the clinical care directorate, as announced by the HSE. That is necessary if dental services are to be managed and planned in a systematic manner that places a particular focus on patients.

The association wishes to make a number of recommendations in respect of orthodontic services. They are detailed in our submission. We recognise the need to review the regulation of the profession. We fully support any reforms that promote the highest standards of professional care and treatment and protect the public. We are ready to engage constructively with the Oireachtas in framing and developing legislation to ensure that changes are appropriate, relevant and enjoy the confidence of society and the dental profession. We recognise the need to enhance the strong support of the public for dental services and the profession in Ireland. We are committed to developing a system of alternative dispute resolution to ensure patient concerns are addressed in a timely, fair and comprehensive manner, with a view to offering an alternative to costly and time consuming legislation.

We emphasise the need to develop specialist care services in areas such as paediatric dentistry, special care dentistry, oral surgery and dental public health, which must be done on a nationwide basis. There is no opportunity for dental care to be provided in the vast majority of hospitals owing to the absence of anaesthetic cover. There is a dire need for the provision of such care to enhance services for patients.

While our submission contains many other matters and recommendations for change, I have kept my presentation brief. However, my colleagues and I will be pleased to answer members' questions.

I thank Mr. Hourihan for being succinct.

I thank the Chairman and my colleagues for allowing me to speak first as I must leave to attend another meeting. I also welcome the delegation and thank Mr. Hourihan for his presentation.

Has the Irish Dental Association consulted the HSE on the establishment of primary care teams and what is its role in the delivery of services as part of such teams? Mr. Hourihan indicated that one third of dentists do not participate in the general medical scheme. Will he explain their reluctance to do so?

I agree that greater oral health promotion is required from a very early stage in life. While the school dental programme is delivered in an equitable manner, waiting times for the service are long. Last year, I was contacted by a representative of a school who stated that sixth class children had not been called during the school year, as has been the norm. The reason this group was missed was the length of the waiting lists for the programme. In these straitened economic times when people have less money, this service was valuable to parents because it enabled them to have their children's teeth checked free of charge. Many parents would not otherwise be able to afford such a service. I ask our guests to comment.

I also ask the delegation to comment on the issue of early prevention, particularly given that children do not visit dentists at a sufficiently early age with the result that treatment is sometimes delayed. I have a major concern about people travelling abroad for dental treatment. It is easy to access dental care websites on-line. People will be aware that they can save a significant amount of money on treatments such as having crowns or bridges done if they travel abroad. Can the Irish Dental Association do anything to dissuade people from taking this course of action? As in the case of going to shops which offer the best value, people will go to the dentist where they can get the best value.

I welcome the delegation from the Irish Dental Association. Much of what Mr. Hourihan said is true, particularly in the area of dental services. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the future of primary care and how dentists believe they fit within it. I accept much of Mr. Hourihan's arguments, particularly on prevention of dental decay — prevention is always better than a cure. Leaving aside industrial issues, what single specific development does the Irish Dental Association seek? We all accept there is a problem with the Competition Authority and that this must be addressed by the Irish Pharmaceutical Union, the Irish Medical Organisation, the Irish Dental Association and others.

It is a matter of serious concern that one in seven dentists have left the public scheme resulting in people being required to travel long distances to visit a dentist. A lady in my constituency who telephoned me yesterday stated it had been recommended to her that she travel to Dún Laoghaire for dental treatment. I find that extraordinary as I am sure there are dentists who participate in the scheme closer to her home. This is indicative of the problem people face, which is even worse in areas such as County Kildare as a result of geographic spread. Leaving that issue aside, in what direction would the Irish Dental Association like primary care to go? Do dentists believe they will be an integral part of primary care, as one would expect? Do they envisage being housed in the same building as other members of a primary care team? I believe they should be. What are their views on sharing information? As our guests will be aware, dentists must often consult general practitioners to check the medical status of patients before performing extractions or administering drugs, including antibiotics.

I welcome the delegation. Where does the Irish Dental Association believe it fits into the primary care network or team? Mr. Hourihan noted the HSE did not refer to dentists in its presentation. The joint committee wishes to ensure that dentists will be appropriately placed in our recommendations.

The most concerning aspect of the presentation is the statement that the public system, the DTSS scheme, is on the verge of collapse in many areas. What would be the consequences if that scenario were to materialise? What needs to be done in this regard? The presentation also refers to a number of vacancies and states recruitment restrictions are having a serious effect. Will the delegation clarify that issue?

Waiting times for orthodontic treatment are unacceptable. The longest waiting times cited in the list before us is 48 months for category B treatment in the southern area. What should be done to address this issue?

Where are the bottlenecks in dentistry? When I was a Member of the Dáil orthodontics was discussed every second week because the problems in that area were so serious. It appears these problems remain and have spread to routine dental treatment in the sense that it is becoming extremely difficult to access dental treatment, especially for patients who hold medical cards. Is the problem purely one of manpower or is it caused by the industrial relations issues which are cropping up? Is the excuse that negotiations would breach the Competition Acts contributing to the problems facing patients or are there simply not enough dentists and orthodontists?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We will try to address all the questions. I will respond to a number of them before asking my colleagues to address others.

A number of speakers referred to primary care teams. I pointed out that the HSE presentation did not make reference to dentists. The HSE makes a distinction between what it calls primary care teams or centres and primary care networks. The discussion is focused on the centres because they are physical buildings which will house general practitioners, therapists and a number of other grades, including perhaps pharmacists. The HSE then distinguishes between other occupations and professions which will work in networks. We understand these will be virtual networks in so far as communication between the primary care centres and those in the networks, including dentists, will be improved.

The Irish Dental Association has not had discussions with the HSE and would welcome any such discussion. In the first instance, there is scope and a need for much greater communication, on a structured basis, between dentists and medical professionals. While we will have an open mind on any proposals the HSE may put to us, in our view there are good reasons that surgeries operate on the current stand-alone basis. I understand the HSE also accepts this.

As to fitting in to primary care, given that dentists and dentistry are very much ignored and overlooked, it can only be for the betterment of patients that they are more integrated into primary care. Dentists work in general practice settings and a significant number of them work in the HSE. It is essential, however, that there is greater integration of dental services.

I wish to intervene because I think this is a critical point to our understanding of what the HSE is trying to do in terms of having the network with the larger population base and then the local primary care team. Let us take for example a population centre with 8,000 or 10,000 people where there may be one primary care team. There may be a local dispensary which, according to what the HSE said to us yesterday, it hopes to sell off. The HSE dentist works there part time. That HSE dentist would presumably be part of the local primary care team. I presume the dentist in private practice in that same community would be in some way or other part of that primary care team. Is it considered that he or she would be separate to that and deal with a network at a different level?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The Chairman has rightly distinguished between dentists who work in the HSE who currently operate out of clinics. Often they can work alongside other HSE colleagues. The general dental practitioners operate out of their own surgeries. I do not think the HSE is proposing, or that dentists are asking, that they would be integrated into primary care teams. To be honest, we have not had the discussion, although we want to have it.

Does Mr. Hourihan see the dentist in private practice in a community having a positive contribution to make to the local primary care team?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes, we do. We think it would be for the betterment of the community for services generally. I have some understanding of medical services and I can say categorically that dentistry is very isolated and it ought to be more integrated. How that is done is a matter for discussion.

I am aware that the average population coverage for a GP is 1,000 to 2,000 people. Perhaps I should know but I do not, what is the average population that is required for a dental practice?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It does not operate on the same list or panel system.

I understand that. That is not my question. What population would a private dentist need to sustain a practice?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I might ask Dr. Quirke to answer that. He is a general practitioner.

Dr. Maurice Quirke

The European average in this regard is 2,500 patients per dentist. The Irish average is 2,000 patients per dentist.

It is not a lot different. That is my point. That is the information I sought.

We are significantly below the European average.

Dr. Maurice Quirke

Yes, by a considerable amount. We have a higher penetration into the market here than the European average.

That is interesting considering the problems with gaining access.

Dr. Maurice Quirke

I submit to Senator Twomey that the problems of access are not manpower issues in terms of general dental practice, or private practice as one might refer to it, they stem largely from issues around the Competition Act, in addition to difficulties with administration and funding of the medical card scheme within the HSE.

Does that include specialised dental care, not just general?

Dr. Maurice Quirke

I might defer to one of my colleagues within the HSE for more evidence on specialised dental care. My understanding of the delivery of specialist dental care is that it is extremely limited within the HSE, apart from the orthodontic service.

It is most interesting then that if one has a population of 8,000 people, as in the example outlined by the Chairman, that would generally require the services of four GPs and four dentists. It would seem that they would sit nicely side by side in a primary care team. It seems extraordinary to me that dentists have not been included. I await the dentists' own deliberations as to how they see themselves in the system.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Deputy Conlon asked questions about oral health promotion and early prevention. I might ask my colleague, Dr. Rosarii McCafferty, who is a public dental surgeon to address those points.

Dr. Rosarii McCafferty

I thank Deputy Conlon, who is no longer present, for her comments on the valuable service we provide in the public dental service. We, primarily, treat children up to the age of 16 and we offer also a special needs service. Currently, as she indicated, there is inequity throughout the country in the service that is being provided. Certain areas, especially in some rural areas, were badly hit following the embargo and subsequent cut in vacancies last year. In some counties we have very few dentists to treat children. That is why certain groups are not getting called for their normal school screening examinations.

I work in the north east, in County Meath. We have closed a clinic in Laytown in recent times and we are not offering any school screening service to first, fourth and six class children in that area because we do not have a dentist to run the service. In the neighbouring counties of Cavan and Monaghan early last year there was one dentist trying to run 11 clinics. Currently there are slightly more than three dentists trying to run the 11 clinics. Six of the clinics are closed. They are running an emergency service only. A child in pain will get seen but we are not in a position to offer any treatment. Consequently, there is a lot of unmet need. We do not operate waiting lists because we are not calling in people. The first, fourth and sixth classes that do not get called in 2009 are gone and in 2010 we are looking at new first, fourth and sixth classes.

We recognise the need for oral health promotion. We have good schemes in place around the country. We link in with schools on healthy eating policies. We have some good programmes on nutritional guidelines running in pre-schools. In some ways we would like to put ourselves out of a job. We would love to prevent all the decay that occurs in this country. We know that the building blocks are the services the children are receiving up to the age of 16. Many parents cannot afford to bring their children privately and we are the only service they can attend. In many areas throughout the country we are offering a limited service due to lack of staff.

I asked what should be done in that regard. It is most alarming that children are not accessing a service to which they are entitled. What specifically should we recommend as a matter of urgency in terms of filling posts?

Dr. Rosarii McCafferty

We are all aware of the current economic climate but we certainly would recommend that front-line services should be prioritised. The staff who treat patients — dentists, nurses and hygienists — are such a priority. We would love to see this matter addressed.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Our single call would be that vacancies are filled. We have compiled figures on the vacancies and we await a response from the HSE. It is no exaggeration to say that currently we are seeing a significant rationing of services. Our great concern is that we will see a rationing of services for the general adult population. Our expectation is that decisions will be made in the near future to ration the provision of dentures. If that happens it would cause a huge outcry.

Are there other issues to be addressed?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There was a question about orthodontics. My colleague, Dr. Ciara Scott, is an orthodontist. We accept that is an issue that generates a lot of interest.

Dr. Ciara Scott

Questions were asked about waiting lists and waiting times. Although I do not work in the southern area the average waiting time for some children is 48 months. That said, many of the children referred to the service come from fourth class and sixth class checks. It may be that those children, albeit that they are eligible for the waiting list, are not ready to start treatment or are not in urgent need of treatment. We have a triage system in that children are prioritised who urgently need orthodontic treatment and have problems that would become more complex, are more difficult to treat or would become compromised if they did not start treatment straight away. I hope the system serves them well.

As Dr. Quirke indicated, there is not a manpower issue in dentistry. There is not really a manpower issue in orthodontics. More orthodontists are registered as specialists in Ireland currently than was the case previously. The HSE orthodontic service has suffered from recruitment freezes and budget cuts in the same way as some of the other services. We can envisage that with the tax relief changes that have been introduced and with uncertain financial times ahead for parents the public orthodontic service will be put under enormous pressure and waiting list times will possibly be affected by that.

Does Dr. Renehan or Dr. Walsh wish to add anything?

Dr. Jane Renehan

There was a question on bottlenecks that I wish to address. I am a principal dental surgeon working in Dublin north west, which has a large, mixed and growing population. Having discussed this with colleagues throughout the country, I regard the bottlenecks as being associated with obtaining initial access to the health care services from a very early age. This has been identified in all the questions of the members. If children do not receive preventive care at a very early age and do not get screened in the early school years, difficulties will arise. If they are not brought into the orthodontic system by their sixth class screening at age 12, they will not be referred to the orthodontic service if orthodontic anomalies are spotted. This will lead to further difficulties when they enter their teens and later years. Eating habits change during the teens, during which period more high-sugar drinks and foods are consumed. If the Health Service Executive's public dental service does not catch children and youths up to 16 years, they will not only need preventative care but also treatment. In the latter case, my general practitioner colleagues must carry out what are probably more complex and advanced treatments, which are more expensive to the taxpayer. If the children are not referred to the preventative, early treatment and orthodontic services before 12, the State pays far more for dental services through the medical card or social welfare schemes.

Dr. Helen Walsh

Deputy Conlon mentioned the number of general dental practitioners who are not participating in the General Medical Services scheme. There are a few reasons for this, one of which is financial. Some 80% of the population is entitled to State support of some form or other for their dental treatment. The fees are very defined and 20% of the population are trying to subsidise them to a large extent. As times get worse, the figure of 20% will decrease and the number relying on State support will increase, thus putting more pressure on dentists who are trying to run their practices independently. We do not get any Government support, unlike our medical colleagues. As long as this continues, pressure on our system will increase.

Dr. Maurice Quirke

Deputy Conlon referred to dental tourism. There has recently been an almost fashionable trend to go to other countries in Europe for dentistry. Published evidence on this shows there is a considerable disadvantage to doing so. We all know that the best person from whom to receive one's dental, medical, pharmaceutical or any other treatment is a local provider because, if something goes awry, it can be dealt with expediently. A patient of mine with significant gum disease problems recently went to Europe for treatment and came back to me six weeks after her trip having had 22 crowns fitted on teeth that were never in need of them and on gums that certainly could not support them. It was akin to building a house in a bog and forgetting about the foundations. The lady was in pain. She had borrowed money from the credit union to fund her treatment. While we always encourage patients to shop around for treatment, they must be sure they are getting appropriate treatment. The published evidence to date suggests this may not be the case.

Dr. Jane Renehan

Deputy Reilly asked us to identify the one development we would like to happen. Our association would like to see more co-ordination of the dental services in the Health Service Executive. There is no single senior clinical post within the HSE that deals with dentistry. If there were, it would bring all 32 dental areas together, which are at present run by individual managers. They and their staff are very enthusiastic but co-ordination would lead to efficiencies and the delivery of a more effective service. Within existing resources, we could squeeze more out of the public dental service and achieve more.

A senior clinician within the HSE would also link very well with our medical card colleagues and plan for the transition of patients from the salaried service into the private medical card service. The lack of a chief dental office in the Department for the past four years has left a very large gap in that the lead on oral health policy is not being taken within the Department. This is reflected in what one witnessed in respect of the HSE yesterday. No one spoke about dentistry and no one in senior management in the HSE knows about it. We are forgotten and isolated.

We are a very dedicated profession and I am very privileged to be working with dedicated, young, enthusiastic and well-educated staff. My colleagues in private practice experience this as well. Good people are entering the profession and unless they are brought together and have a champion to pull together their resources, the taxpayer will not see good value for money from us. This is a shame because we are willing to give it and to negotiate.

I apologise for not being present earlier but I found the written submission very interesting. I do not want to reopen the debate except to say I regard the dental service as a very important part of the delivery of good primary care in any community. Have the delegates had any discussions with the Health Service Executive about the delivery of primary care and the provision of a new, comprehensive, sophisticated primary care service nationally?

On page 28 of the submission, there is a table showing waiting lists, some of which are quite frightening. While I appreciate the shortcomings and what needs to be done, I must ask whether there are different levels of productivity among dentists nationally. If so, is there a reason?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

On the Deputy's first point, we have, I hope, made it very clear that we actually do want to have discussions with the HSE. We do not believe the HSE attaches any priority to dentistry and it is not seeking to speak to us. We hope an outcome of this meeting will be that it will get the message that it is in everyone's interest that it speak to us. There have been no discussions with the HSE but we would very much welcome them.

On the waiting list for orthodontic treatment, I will ask Dr. Ciara Scott to reply.

Dr. Ciara Scott

I am a specialist working within the service but I have consultant colleagues who participate in a group. I agree with Dr. Renehan's point that they have no national support and no one within the Health Service Executive or Department of Health and Children nationally is co-ordinating funding and services. There is a disparity between different regions and some get much better management support and funding than others. The latter are fighting for the service but unable to access the same funding.

What specifically does Dr. Scott regard as necessary to improve productivity?

Dr. Ciara Scott

I agree with Dr. Renehan that someone with national oversight and an overview of where the money is best spent and where there is most need would be of great value to the orthodontic service.

Dr. Jane Renehan

It is very difficult to measure productivity when one is fire fighting and when the very few dentists on the ground are engaged only in the provision of emergency services, including carrying out extractions and solving pain. This is not indicative of good productivity. As my colleague stated, we are trying to provide preventative care. A measure of the number of fillings or extractions is a very poor measure because one is measuring disease. As the Deputy knows, to measure the prevention of disease is almost impossible, but this is what we are trying to do. We are trying to prevent disease, and we are trying to stop working in that we are trying to work ourselves out of a job. If there is no disease, that will be our best measurement.

I fully agree on the issue of prevention and that firefighting is not necessarily the best approach. However, my question on productivity concerned comparing like with like. Particularly in disciplines where there is a scarcity of personnel, it is important we ensure where productivity is not as high in one area as another, it is addressed. I am not talking about prevention but about comparing like with like.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. There are two aspects to what we have been hearing today. One concerns primary care, on which we may require further clarification as we work towards the compilation of a report. The other aspect is the lack of focus on dental services in the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive. We are concerned about that. In March it will have its quarterly meeting with the Minister for Health and Children and Professor Drumm of the HSE at which members may put this matter on the agenda. It might be useful for the committee to engage with the Irish Dental Association after that meeting to assist it in further raising these matters.

Dr. Jane Renehan

On a point of information, the Department of Health and Children has instigated an oral health policy review which is at its end stage. An external consultant has been brought in to draw the document together. The Department should be well informed of matters in the area.

Sitting suspended at noon and resumed at 12.20 p.m.
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