JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 8 Mar 2012

FSA and Oberstown Detention Centre: Discussion with Chairmen Designate

Chairman

We will now resume in public session. Is that agreed? Agreed. I take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy and productive International Women's Day. I know our colleagues had a breakfast briefing and a photocall on the plinth, so I thank them for that and congratulate them. I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile telephones are off for the duration of the meeting, as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment even when on silent mode.

I welcome to our meeting the following from the Family Support Agency: Mr. Bill O'Dea, acting CEO, and Ms Sharon Foley, chairperson designate. I also welcome Mr. Joe Horan, chairman designate, Oberstown board, and Mr. Dan Kelleher, detention schools section, Department of Children and Youth Affairs. They are all welcome to the meeting.

As part of the programme for Government, the Government has initiated new arrangements for the appointment and composition of State boards. Those new arrangements include the role of Oireachtas committees in scrutinising appointments and engaging with such people. We are delighted to have two such people before us this morning, as representatives of State boards for the first time. I hope this meeting will be informative, interesting, productive and fruitful. We want to hear the witnesses' views and vision for the posts and boards under their stewardship, as well as the challenges and priorities facing them in the first 18 months of their tenure.

Before inviting the delegation to make their presentations, I wish to advise that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances and comments in the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are therefore then only entitled to qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments or evidence in relation to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible they will not criticise or make charges against a member of either House of the Oireachtas or a person outside the Houses, or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call on Ms Sharon Foley, chairperson designate of the Family Support Agency, to make her opening remarks.

Ms Sharon Foley

I thank the Chairman and other members of the committee for welcoming us here. I am the designated chairperson for the Family Support Agency and am delighted to have been considered for such a position. As I am new in the post, I may defer technical questions to the acting CEO, Mr. Bill O'Dea, who is accompanying me. I have provided the joint committee with copies of my presentation, so I do not intend to read all of it. I did, however, want to give members of the committee information that they can take away with them.

Members of the committee will be aware that the Family Support Agency was established in 2003. Late last year, it was decided that the Family Support Agency would be subsumed into the new Children and Family agency which will come from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

The agency currently has responsibility for the family resource programme, the counselling grants scheme, and research and information. At this point I would like to pay tribute to the former CEO, Mr. Pat Bennett. He only left the agency last Friday, so members of the committee will have to be kind to his replacement. Mr. Bennett has moved to the Adoption Authority as its CEO. He was with the Family Support Agency for nine years and was responsible for much of the great work that has been carried out there. I also commend the ex-chairperson, former Deputy Michael O'Kennedy, who steered the agency over the last nine years.

The agency's current budget is €26 million, which is down 19% since 2008. Approximately 93% of the budget relates directly to the support and development of community-based services for families and 6% is retained in-house for either governance and management or research and information. The agency currently has 12 staff, which is a decrease of 33% since 2008. While the original whole-time equivalent allocation was 18, under the Croke Park agreement and on foot of staff leaving, that now has fallen to 12. As the agency has a staffing target of 13, we are delighted to report we are ahead of target.

In coming to talk to the joint committee this morning, I note the agency faces a busy period. The plan is the agency will be subsumed into the new child and family support agency by January 2013 but realistically, it probably will be March 2013. Consequently, we have a 12-month period in which to effect this transition into the child and family support agency. One of my priorities in the next year is to give support to the acting chief executive officer and the staff as the transition takes place because it is a big movement for the agency and is a major development. However, I wish to ensure the family resource centre programme and all its work, as well as the counselling programmes are strong and well-positioned for the transfer and transition into the new child and family support agency. As members will hear later in my presentation, they form a critical part of that prevention and early family intervention I am sure they will agree is critical to support families. Obviously, we also wish to ensure we are meeting our commitments under the Croke Park agreement. There will be a number of reductions in budgets for family resource centres and counselling grants over the next three years that we intend to effect from the beginning of this year, although I acknowledge some of this started last year.

I will bring members through the main planks of the agency's programme, the first of which is the family resource centre programme, FRC. Its goal is to combat disadvantage by providing support to families and communities from locations within communities. All Deputies present will be aware of the family resource centres in their own communities and many of them will have visited them to open events or to be part of those communities. They do fantastic work. I live in County Laois and the family resource centre in Knockmay has been positioned within the community there for a number of years and has been carrying out work with those communities about which we are most concerned, namely, those which experience most social disadvantage. The services provided by family resource centres include information, advice and support for groups and families at a local level, assistance to community groups - they run a lot of training - shared use of facilities, education courses and training opportunities, child care facilities for those attending courses and after-school clubs. In most of the communities in which such centres are active, they are a hub of the community. They operate within the local community, are accessible and become part of the social fabric where people interact. They also are the starting point of much of our democracy in terms of getting representatives from such communities, many of whom have started out in such family resource centres. I spent five years working in the Blanchardstown community development project, which was one of the earlier projects launched in the early 1990s, and in the context of today being International Women's Day, many women came through it and went on into elected office themselves. Therefore, they really play a critical part in empowering local communities.

From the perspective of the Family Support Agency, it obviously provides financial assistance to assist with the staffing and equipping of centres. In 1994, the sum involved was £250,000, which had risen to €15 million by 2012. Consequently, the agency makes a significant contribution to the community sector. Direct support and advice is given by Family Support Agency staff, who also bring together the family resource centres as a national programme and support collective learning. I will speak to the centres at their annual general meeting this weekend to give them an idea of the plans.

I have listed some of the centres' strengths in my presentation and my priority is to look at the FRC programme's strengths and to bring them into the new agency. They really are about early intervention and support to families. For everyone in society, one's greatest concern is for those families that are most socially disadvantaged and the FRCs really are doing the work to support those families. They use a community development approach, not a top-down approach in which people are told what is best for them. It really is about empowering, training and building up the strengths within the community. They are highly cost-effective and are complementary to statutory forms of family support. Moreover, they are sustainable in that the volunteers who are trained through the centres often go on to become employees of the organisation or go to do other things within the community. Hence, they really are building up a legacy of long-term skills within communities that in the past have been marked by an absence of such long-term skills. They also are greatly concerned with integration and act as a community hub that can bring together services provided by local partnership companies, the Health Service Executive and the local county council. They bring about such integration because the aforementioned services often do simple things such as holding their meetings or joint planning groups or whatever within those centres, which have been a hub for the delivery of such integrated services.

My priority and that of the agency's staff over the next year is to effect the transition into the child and family support agency. We must ensure there is an emphasis on prevention and early family support within disadvantaged communities under the child and family support agency. The resources the FRCs will bring into the new agency will be their skill and expertise, as well as being an arm that reaches into those communities. It is the arm of prevention and early intervention with regard to families and the staff and I wish to ensure this is well-positioned in a new programme of the new agency. This really is about the strategic positioning of the importance of early intervention with families and I do not need to explain its importance to anyone present. Moreover, we seek the continued roll-out of the new strategic framework for family support within the FRC programme. This framework was developed by the Family Support Agency with the family resource centres and had aligned national objectives and outcomes for family support services.

The second major tranche of work carried out by the Family Support Agency concerns the scheme of grants to voluntary organisations that provide marriage, child and bereavement counselling services. This also was set up in the 1990s to provide counselling to couples to prevent marital breakdown. It later was extended to include counselling to children whose parents had separated, the provision of marriage preparation courses and bereavement counselling and support on the death of a family member. As the presentation shows, £300,000 was provided in 1993. That budget had increased to €11 million in 2010 but now has been reduced to €9.4 million. I have included a slide in the presentation to demonstrate how the counselling grant funding has been allocated in 2012. The plan is to reduce it by 12% each year from 2012 to 2014 and the figure for 2012 comprises a 12% reduction from the budget allocation for 2011. As for the composition of the allocation, approximately €5 million goes to marriage and relationship counselling, just over €600,000 goes to marriage preparation courses, €1.3 million goes to child counselling and €2 million goes to bereavement counselling and support. I wear another hat as chief executive officer of the Irish Hospice Foundation, which has been working with the Family Support Agency to set up supports for children who have been bereavement by the death of a parent or sibling. It is great to see this partnership working.

Some key achievements under the grants programme include the funding provided to 608 voluntary and community organisations which provide counselling services, of which 28 receive funding on a multi-annual basis, which allows them to plan ahead and to be able to plan their services. In addition, I refer to the national resource and network of 600 voluntary and community based services. Again, members will be aware of where such services, networks and supports are located within their own communities. They often are advertised through schools, church newsletters or whatever and constitute an essential part of the fabric of each community. There is support for the tender and roll-out of a new database for counselling groups to enhance data collection and analysis in association with the Association of Agency-Based Counselling in Ireland, AACI, which will be launched early this year. Following on from this, the agency hopes to position the counselling grants scheme in order that when it is moved under the aegis of the new agency, the annual quality reviews are further developed and further enhanced. I already have mentioned the partnership with the Irish Hospice Foundation.

As for the strengths of the counselling programme, obviously it is of direct assistance to families and their members to deal with difficult periods they may experience. The joy and beauty of the scheme is it provides direct assistance to families within their local communities, who are not obliged to travel to Dublin or wherever. Support within communities for families is essential. In respect of value for money, the Family Support Agency provides the cost of the counselling but the administration, capital and operational costs are borne by the organisations, which is a quite cost-effective way of running the scheme. As for the scheme's reach, those involved provide services to more than 70,000 people annually, with 250,000 hours of face-to-face engagement at an approximate cost of €200 per client. As for its quality, much of the counselling is accredited by the AACI and it is a unique partnership between the voluntary sector and the State. As referrals come from all aspects of the State services to these community-based services, it again is a model in which there is a synergy between both elements of our society.

The Family Support Agency's priorities in this regard over the next 12 months will be the transition into the new child and family support agency and making sure this is effected well and efficiently. Again, the emphasis will be on the value of family support via counselling within the community setting, because while much counselling may be provided in a medical setting or elsewhere, having it within the community setting is really important. It is fantastic for families who may be experiencing disadvantage to have such a service available locally. Another priority will be to be able to provide future directions to the new agency on how to improve quality. Consideration will be given to the development and provision of pre-parenting counselling as identified in the ERSI report on family trends, which is FSA funded. They are currently working with the Irish Hospice Foundation on bereavement support for children. The emphasis of that work is to try to ensure there is a quality network of supports available for families where there has been a bereavement.

There is a small amount on the information role of the agency which is provided for under the 2001 Act. It has a statutory responsibility to promote and disseminate information on marriage relationships, education, parenting, family responsibilities and related matters. The FSA would see itself as a conduit to build partnerships with others with experience in the area, including Barnardos, One Family and Treoir, which is very cost effective given that these are the organisations with the experience on the ground. The FSA has the mechanism to get that information either on its website or directly out to fund initiatives under information.

From my work over the years in health service management I know that research is key in driving change and improving practice. The FSA's research unit is a key component of the new programme in terms of prevention and early family support. We need to constantly improve our practices and deliver better services through using research. Research can really change the hearts and minds of people allowing us to bring new information to the table and change practice. I am a firm believer in the role of research and I would like to see it in the new children and family agency. Families' needs change over time and community and societal needs change over time. Given that we are in such a state of flux as a society we will need to constantly review how we find out and keep in touch with the public and keep that voice of the public alive in our work.

The research function is not a huge function in the Family Support Agency but it has been critical in changing thinking. As a practitioner I have used a considerable amount of its research. There is an online database of family research which is very beneficial because ten years ago although there was family research it was everywhere and it was very difficult to pull it together. Research coming up in 2012 includes: family relationships and family well-being; growing up in a one-parent family; and family well-being in difficult times, which will consider the factors impacting well being for families living on limited resources.

The Family Support Agency's action plan under the Croke Park agreement includes management of staff reductions in 2012, 2013 and 2014. The whole-time equivalent of 18 has been reduced to 12, which is one ahead of the plan. Absence management will form part of its PMDS system. Back-end ICT support will be provided through the parent Department and there is a service level agreement for that. It is currently reviewing the multiannual funded counselling organisations with the objective to improve accountability within the scheme, in terms of service provision and finance. It is streamlining the software-based self-evaluation system for FRC programme, which is the speak system of which members may be aware in terms of public bodies. This will ensure it is aligned with national objectives and outcomes for family support services.

I will give some information on myself and how I came to be chairperson designate of the Family Support Agency. I was the first CEO of the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and was there for a number of years. My background was as a dietician working in a community development setting and public health working in the Department of Health for a number of years and in the greater Blanchardstown development project. I would be very familiar with that community development approach. I am currently CEO of Irish Hospice Foundation. I spent more than ten years as a senior manager in health services with a health promotion background. Obviously the emphasis on prevention and early family support will be strong in my mind. Prior to coming into the Irish Hospice Foundation I worked on my own alongside many of the community and voluntary organisations facilitating, doing strategic planning, etc. I am a member of Health and Social Care Professionals Council, and up to taking up this post I chaired the audit and governance committee.

Members have a copy of my CV. I hope I bring to the table proven leadership experience and skills. I bring experience in strategic planning and development. It will be a difficult process in the next 12 months as is it for any agency to effect an amalgamation. I believe the staff are very positive and we want to keep that positivity going and ensure the transition is effected well.

We may look to this committee for ongoing support of and interest in the work of the Family Support Agency. I would be pleased to hear the members' views and experiences.

Chairman

I thank Ms Foley for her comprehensive, thorough and refreshing presentation. I welcome Mr. Joe Horan, the chairperson designate of board of management of Oberstown detention schools and I ask him to make his opening presentation.

Mr. Joe Horan

I thank members of the committee for the opportunity to discuss my nomination to the board of the three schools in Oberstown. I believe the members have received three documents - my opening statement, the CV and an issues paper that was prepared. I hope the members have had an opportunity to look at that document. There has been a shift in the legal responsibility to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs since 1 January 2012. From 2007 it had been under the control of the Department of Justice and Equality and prior to that the Department for Education and Science. Therein lies some of the complexities I have encountered in looking into the background of the issues faced by the board. At one time there were three boards on the campus.

I am aware of the Government's decision that chairs of State boards would appear before the appropriate Oireachtas committee to outline their vision and their background. I am happy to participate in that process and take on board the committee's views. My CV sets out the issues I feel are relevant to these tasks. I was county manager of South Dublin County Council from 2002 and retired last month. Before that, I was county manager in Meath County Council and was with Wicklow County Council from 1968. So I have been involved in local government for quite a while.

The South Dublin County Council area had a number of disadvantaged areas while also having considerable economic development. It was obvious that an interagency approach was required to tackle many of the issues that were emerging. I obviously welcome some of the structures that emerged at that time, including the JPCs and the local policing fora. In South Dublin we also had the opportunity to do things like the childhood development initiative in Tallaght, which was an evidence-based project that tried to deliver outcomes in areas such as education and health. It was a fairly well structured interagency approach in which we all signed up to certain objectives. That has relevance in what we need to do in Oberstown.

As an organisation we were very conscious of social inclusion and literacy projects. An innovation I mentioned in the CV was the concept of social credits in which we tried to devise a system whereby people could earn credits for pro-social behaviour. That was trying to engage young people in things such as music and sport and art thereby expanding their life experience. I was recently involved in preparing two projects in the county for Jigsaw because youth mental health is a major issue. I recently joined the board of Headstrong because I feel very strongly that that area has a consequence and I believe that might be relevant to this task. Within the organisation in South Dublin County Council we had a considerable staff. While that diminished from 1,600 to approximately 1,180 and its budget had declined from €300 million to €237 million, the organisation needed to face into culture change, which is something that is very relevant to most organisations. I also tried to maximise the use of ICT.

I know the budget for Oberstown is approximately €17 million and its staff has reduced by 33% since 2007. That was mainly due to the closure of the Finglas centre. Processes are required to ensure staff resources are focused on the problem as it can be sometimes lost sight of.

At one time there were three boards, but now there is one for the three facilities which work in slightly different ways. This board which will be in place for two years and the core values on which it will focus are care, education, training and other programmes with a view to re-integrating the child into society. This aim and how the campus is established are key to how the required changes may happen. Trinity House School is a secure facility while the other two are more open. The budget is managed by the Irish Youth Justice Service, which reports to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

The issue I have seen flagged most often through queries at this forum and others is with regard to 16 and 17 year olds at St. Patrick's Institution. How this is dealt with is a key issue. The Minister made reference to ending this in the briefing document prepared by the Department and to how this might be done. This is vital and a solid commitment should be made to it. The board should engage directly with and assist the Minister in making it happen as soon as possible. Another important issue is the additional facilities required there and I am aware of the background. A commitment has been made to a new facility. How the board facilitates the staff transfer when this happens is very important.

The briefing document also makes reference to good relations with other agencies in health and education. Good relations are important but one cannot get away from a structured approach. I reported to the former Office of the Minister for Children on a pilot project with a specific set of tasks signed up to by the other agencies with data sharing and critical incident protocols. I also reported to a high level group on outcomes for Travellers. This was also a structured approach. It examined whether we could have an impact on the lives of young Travellers and explore the good parts of the culture to which they are exposed, but also face up to the other aspects their culture might throw up for them. We examined issues such as violence.

Our aspirations were better accommodation and health, and outcomes for education and jobs were key. We ran a very innovative project in south Dublin with a work-based training programme involving approximately 50 young Travellers and secured 20 full-time permanent positions. This integration helped them to develop. In another forum I will examine whether some of this work can be expanded to other areas. I have been speaking to the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, about this. Workplace-based training could be a useful element for young people who end up in a training facility.

Aftercare tends to diminish when staff resources diminish. We need flexibility on this because aftercare is very important for keeping in touch with young people and helping them through various processes. I would like to see development in this area.

I mentioned Jigsaw and I am aware of a national specialist service for young people which examines the issues that arose in institutions in recent years. Perhaps promoting positive mental health might be examined.

The public are able to read the HIQA reports and I was able to view online the responses made by the committee to them. The issues are reasonably under control. Inspections were carried out in November 2011 and I would like to see them on the committee's agenda to ensure proper follow through. HIQA has referenced care policies and I can see these being highlighted with public response.

With regard to operational reform, discussions are taking place on the Croke Park agreement. Serious issues arise as to how work practices might make the campus work better. These are sensitive issues and it is important to respect staff and engage and communicate with them to ensure we are all working towards achieving a particular objective. Rosters are being examined and reform might help deal with some of the issues that exist at present.

While the three facilities work separately, some shared services now exist in payroll, catering and care policies. Scope exists to extend this. I have had a brief discussion with staff and there is willingness for them to identify areas where they can work together. Flexibility, rosters and changed management are critical issues. Incorporated technology would also assist the staff. A report on the integrated campus sets out issues and examines how a move could be made from the three facilities to a more integrated campus. I can see the board putting this on its agenda to see how it can be developed. It will require very good communications and leadership to ensure what we do is centred on getting an outcome for the young people in the institutions.

Our priority will be to deal with the young people in St. Patrick's Institution. We will set out the tasks the board might have in assisting the capital project development. It should prepare an inter-agency strategy along the lines I described. It should maximise the use of specialist services, show obvious compliance with HIQA and fully integrate services in one campus and establish good communications. These are the tasks as I see them and I am very happy to engage with committee members on any issues they might have.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Horan for his very enlightening presentation. Deputy Byrne must leave and I ask Deputies Ó Caoláin and McConalogue to allow her to speak first.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I am happy to accommodate the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I apologise to Mr. Horan and Ms Foley but I must leave to attend another meeting which was arranged in a hurry.

I read both CVs and the other documentation supplied. I do not have any major questions. I am very confident about their appointments and what they will do. I know Mr. Horan particularly well; I do not know Ms Foley as well. In the short time I have been a Member of the Dáil I have been very impressed with both of them and I have heard various things said about each of them at meetings. I wish them both every success in their appointments.

I hope I will have an opportunity on another occasion to have further discussions with them because I would like to raise a number of issues, on family resource centres in particular. I would also like to discuss with Mr. Horan the issue of young people being sent to St. Patrick's Institution. When I was growing up I travelled to Lusk on many occasions as a detention centre was based there which youth leaders visited in the evening. At the time I was very impressed with how it was run. I do not know whether it still exists.

I wish I had more time to speak and I thank the other committee members for allowing me to speak.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank Mr. Horan and Ms Foley for coming before the committee and for their presentations. I also thank their colleagues for accompanying them. I commend both of them on taking on their roles. I wish to ask Ms Foley how much working time is involved in being chairman of the Family Support Agency. What has been the level of engagement so far with regard to how the new child and family services agency will operate? Have the plan and structure been agreed? I thank Mr. Horan for taking on his role. It is useful to have a chairman who is from a different background, as Mr. Horan can bring an outside perspective. I wish him and Ms Foley well in their respective roles.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Bá mhaith liom fáilte a gabháil do Ms Foley, Mr. Horan, Mr. O'Dea and Mr. Kelleher freisin. I wish Ms Foley and Mr. Horan every success in their respective responsibilities in the time ahead. I appreciate that these are early days for them in terms of the questions that we might like to ask. If they take them on board, they might be able to give us some indication further down the road of what they cannot offer in response today.

It is important that, in taking on these responsibilities, they view this committee as an important aid in their objectives. We can be a conduit and a support. They are not present today to be put through the grinder as to the who, what and all the rest of it. Rather, their presence is about how we can best serve what I now recognise as a shared set of objectives across their areas of responsibility.

The Family Support Agency, FSA, will be merged with the child and family support agency by 2013. It is early days yet, but Ms Foley or Mr. O'Dea might be able to shed some light on the matter. In terms of the transition and ultimate incorporation in the new body, do they have concerns about the current workload and responsibilities of the FSA? Given the current circumstances in particular, will the merger impact on the FSA's ability to fund the 107 family resource centres around the State? Does Ms Foley have concerns in this regard or is she confident that this critical role in supporting the family resource centres and the work they do in all of our respective communities is secure?

Have recent cutbacks impacted on the levels of funding allocated to the scheme of grants for voluntary organisations that provide marriage, child and bereavement counselling services, which are also offered through the FSA and, in turn, through a number of family resource centres? How has the recession impacted on the families the agency supports through mediation and so on? What of the impact it is having on the well being of the children with whom it works?

I noted something in the outline provided concerning a number of reports that have been prepared. In particular, I recall welcoming the FSA-funded Attitudes to Family Formation in Ireland, which stated quite obviously that single mothers were the most socially isolated of all family groups. It also highlighted the need for policies to enable, encourage and facilitate men playing a greater role in parenting and facing up to their parenting responsibilities. These important reports have made a useful contribution. Has Ms Foley concerns about whether the FSA will be able to continue supporting these types of studies and research programmes?

I will address Mr. Horan's position concerning the detention school board. The Government has stated - a statement repeated in today's presentation - that it is committed to ending the practice of the detention of 16 and 17 year old boys in St. Patrick's Institution. The Oberstown Boys School does not have the capacity to cater to that number or to that particular cohort at this point in time. Will Mr. Horan elaborate on this point? Is it necessary to reach the point of undertaking capital works in order to facilitate that transfer and that utilisation into the future? Will Mr. Horan provide us with a sense of the current situation?

Regarding the inspection reports of the child detention centres, could the committee be provided with an update of the recommendations? The reports made a number of recommendations that have either not been acted upon or only partially acted upon. I will cite three examples. First, the recommendation to reduce the use of single separation and to ensure this practice conforms to standards in every instance. Second, the recommendation to develop single separation guidelines by the Irish Youth Justice Service, IYJS, in consultation with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the HSE. Third, the recommendation to improve planning for and support after discharge by the IYJS in liaison with the HSE and the Probation Service. These are important recommendations. The committee has addressed a number of issues in respect of post-18 year olds. The after discharge issue opens up a whole other area of questions concerning the centre's success in preparing young people for the challenges that life will present following their periods of detention. "Detention" is an unfortunate word in this instance. Nevertheless, it is the word that applies.

Deputy Eamonn Maloney

I wish to be associated with the Chairman's welcome to our four guests. Like others, I checked their submissions in advance. They were impressive. Given the nature of the work, these are not jobs that people rush into unless they have a strong commitment to such work. Ms Foley's commitment is reflected strongly. All practising politicians appreciate the FSA's difficult work, which is made even more difficult by the country's troubled situation. Nothing puts strains on families as much as poverty does. This is where we stand currently. There are signs that we will work our way out of this situation and pick ourselves up off our knees, but recessions always hurt the poorest the most. I compliment Ms Foley. Her curriculum vitae is impressive and I wish her good luck in her job.

I must declare an interest. I was going to say that I worked with Mr. Horan, but he did most of the work. I must put my hands up. When he arrived at South Dublin County Council, the second largest local authority in the country, he built a team and transformed the council into the best local authority in the country. His team got the award so often that it became embarrassing, even for me as a member. I am sure that my colleague to my left felt the same.

Mr. Horan was rather modest concerning his contribution. We all know what his work as a county manager involved, namely, the day-to-day running of a local authority. He had a hands-on approach. He did things that no other county manager would dare do. Although the situation was more complex, he touched upon the matter of people living along roadsides in caravans, etc. and their children not attending school, leading to their children being unable to read or write. This man threw himself into that work on top of all of his other work as a county manager. Working with others in the Traveller unit, he transformed the situation within a few years. South County Dublin had the largest number of Traveller families living on the roadside. By the time this man left, there was none.

I have made my next comment repeatedly, including in front of councillors, but I care little. When it came to making decisions on halting sites and so on, some councillors lost their nerve. They were either unwell or took trips to see their granny and so on. However, as I stated, this mattered little. This man pressed on and changed the situation.

Mr. Horan referred briefly, with even greater pride, to the children's development initiative which was established in Tallaght in south Dublin and the good work it did for those at the bottom of the social ladder. The team set up by Mr. Joe Horan, working with the CDI, took a completely different approach to a working class community that was down on its knees in every respect. This man, in conjunction with the council, set up a scheme which addressed the health, education and after school needs of children from morning until evening. It was also the first scheme which involved parents. Fortunately, the children's development initiative had the financial assistance of Mr. Chuck Feeney, a philanthropist, which is an academic name for a man who has more money than he can spend. He made a worthwhile contribution to this project, which resulted in the transformation for the good of the lives of many children.

I will not be asking Mr. Joe Horan any questions because as members can see, he is eminently qualified. I wish him good luck in his work.

Chairman

Thank you. We will now hear from Ms Foley and Mr. Horan, following which I will allow questions from Deputy Dowds and Senator Burke.

Ms Sharon Foley

A large tranche of the questions related to the impact of budget cuts, about which, like everyone else, we, too, have concerns. There are two things happening in the family support agency. The agency is working with family resource centres and counselling groups to negotiate how best to effect the budget cuts and to ensure, in so far as is possible, they do not impact on front line services. I do not yet have an answer in regard to how they will impact on us. However, we will be monitoring the situation.

Deputy McConalogue asked about positioning in the new child and family support agency. The family resource centres and counselling service focus mainly on prevention. I would like to see that focus on prevention retained in the new agency. While the new agency will focus on child protection and on ensuring that the responses of the State and its agencies are appropriate in this regard, I would also like to see a balance achieved in terms of prevention, early intervention and the promotion of health, in line with some of what is happening in south Dublin and other areas. That would be my biggest concern.

In terms of transition of agencies - the most recent experience being the crisis pregnancy agency into the HSE - it is important to ensure the programme of work in the new agency is managed at a senior level and that recognition of the importance of that work is retained. I will, as chairperson, be trying ensure this happens. Were concerns arise, I would hope to have an opportunity to raise my concerns with this committee.

The Deputy asked about my time as chairperson of the Family Support Agency. The agency's board, which I chair, meets once month. The board of the Irish Hospice Foundation has generously allowed me to give that time. I pay tribute to those involved in that regard. They saw it as a recognition of their choice of CEO that I was asked to chair the family support agency. It is an honour to be asked to do this type of work.

In terms of the transition arrangements into the new agency, a task force has been established. Mr. O'Dea is a member of that task force, which is managing the plans for the transition. I have also listed it as an agenda item for our board meeting. As such, the situation is being monitored every month. We are addressing issues as they arise.

Mr. Joe Horan

I thank the Chairman and members for their comments, which are appreciated. I am pleased to hear that the committee would wish to be an aid to our work, which is important. It is always my intention to say it as I see it, which is useful.

Mr. Kelleher will respond on the issue of capacity. I am happy to engage with the Minister on this issue. I believe there are interim steps that can be taken which do not necessarily depend on capital works. There may well be some capacity that can be released, to which the issue of rosters may well contribute. I believe addressing this issue is a priority.

The HIQA recommendations were mentioned. I am aware that the latest inspections were carried out in November 2011 and that they will become the first issue for the board. While some of the issues that have arisen are minor enough, I will be asking how these are to be addressed. Mr. Kelleher may well wish to respond further on that point.

The provision of support services following discharge was mentioned. Members may recall that I mentioned in my opening statement that this was important. Given the ebb and flow of numbers in these facilities how time is used is important. There is a need for engagement on this issue in the context of changed processes.

Chairman

Do other people share Mr. Horan's concerns in regard to after care? I believe that Mr. Horan is correct that the linkage between discharge and reintegration is important.

Mr. Joe Horan

I have only visited the campus on one occasion, at which time I asked staff about longitudinal studies in regard to discharge of people from Mountjoy and other facilities. It is important there is a real emphasis on this issue. As far as I am aware it is an issue to which people are alert. There is a need for more structured work in this area, which I would like to focus on measurement and outcome and proper tracking in that regard. Currently, there is no tracking in this regard. It is possible to do it.

Chairman

Is buy-in happening?

Mr. Joe Horan

I believe so. The board will certainly buy in to the changed processes. The board must assist staff to change what they are doing in order to do what they should be doing. That is important.

Mr. Dan Kelleher

It is a great honour to be here. I would like to add a little more to what Mr. Horan had to say in response to Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions.

The Deputy asked how we are using our capacity at the campus and if the proposed development to extend the campus is necessary to ensure a resolution of the issue of confinement of 16 and 17 year olds to St. Patrick's Institution. Currently, there are approximately 40 16 and 17 year olds in St. Patrick's Institution, some of whom are on remand and others who are serving sentences under both age brackets. In Oberstown, where the numbers increase and decrease over time, there was very little spare capacity up to Christmas. There are currently 20 plus places available in Oberstown which could be used. We are one bad weekend away from losing ten of those spaces. If we had those 20 spaces available to us on an ongoing basis we could put a dent in the number of spaces we need to address the 16 and 17 year olds issue. However, it would not be enough and we would be relying on nothing else happening to bring the numbers back up again.

It is important to bear in mind in any discussion on children in detention that great progress has been made in the past couple of years in terms of the absolute number in detention between St. Patrick's Institution and Oberstown. We can supply the numbers to the committee at a later date. Taking the numbers from 2008-09 onwards, there has been a steady decline in numbers in St. Patrick's Institution and Oberstown. The Probation Service and the Garda diversion projects are gaining traction in the community, preventing the young people entering the criminal justice system in the first place. It is useful to note that even in the last budget, which was tough for every Department, diversion projects were kept at the same level as the previous years, which is a sign of success. Nonetheless, we must plan very carefully for those people we get into the campus and St. Patrick's Institution.

If an arrangement is made to bring some or all of the young people to Oberstown, we must ensure this can be done without a later reversal; it should be the ultimate solution. I work for the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, and she would say we need some type of capital project to provide a definitive solution for capacity on the campus. There is another reason we are pursuing the Oberstown project, as some of the units and buildings, particularly for Oberstown boys school, would be in a pretty poor state of repair. That forms part of another objective of the proposed project.

Chairman

Is the Department cognisant of the ombudsman's report from 2011, which was critical of St. Patrick's Institution? I appreciate that the capital funding project has not been made available. The report criticises issues of hygiene, clothing and even the relationships with staff. I welcome Mr. Horan's remarks on the flexibility of staff, and I applaud him for his direction in south County Dublin. Has the report been analysed? I am not being critical and I very much welcome that the diversion project is working, as I have worked in the community and have been involved with people at risk. The ombudsman was critical.

Mr. Dan Kelleher

Is the Chairman referring to the Ombudsman for Children report on St. Patrick's Institution?

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Dan Kelleher

I would not be able to speak in too much detail to that as it is still part of the Irish Prison Service and we look after the Oberstown campus.

Chairman

That is fair enough.

Mr. Dan Kelleher

In the lead-up and following the report, there has been a process of engagement between the governor of St. Patrick's Institution and the ombudsman to improve some of the facilities for those aged 16 and 17.

I wanted to return to a couple of other points made by Deputy Ó Caoláin. He mentioned HIQA recommendations on the use of separation. We refer to separation as a kind of sanction for a child for not co-operating with going to school or matters of that nature. That was contained in a previous report and there were follow-on actions to improve the policy used in the three schools for the use of separation and to try to be more selective in the use of that sanction. HIQA inspected the three schools in November and we have not yet received the feedback from the latest inspection. We hope and anticipate that some of the concerns raised in previous reports will be reduced on foot of those actions. I know the child welfare adviser in the youth justice service has asked management in the three schools to systematically report on the number of uses of separation in the three schools and we will check to see if we can get some of that data for the committee. There is an updated policy on the use of single separation, which is due to go before the board in its first or second meeting. We would be happy to revert to the committee on the issue, as the Minister is concerned and believes the practice should only be used where appropriate.

The Deputy also asked about planning for support after discharge. Much work already happens on an informal basis when the child is in custody, as the directors of the schools are in loco parentis for the child. They would always be very careful to ensure there is some contact and support when the child finishes his or her sentence. There is much contact with the HSE, the social work teams and the Probation Service, and there is ongoing work to improve the codes of practice for the level of interaction when a child is released. One issue being considered now is that currently the HSE has more focus on children in custody who are the subject of a care order under the Child Care Acts, and perhaps it does not have as much for the other children, where the body does not have a statutory parental role. We are in the process of trying to clarify that and as Mr. Horan noted, the board will be taking a big interest in the level of inter-agency contact when a child is released to the community.

Chairman

I apologise as I did not mean to put Mr. Kelleher on the spot on the St. Patrick's Institution issue.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I welcome the delegation. Many of the issues have been covered at this stage. Ms Foley mentioned homework clubs and, instinctively, I would be very supportive of the idea of such clubs for certain children. Will she outline the extent to which the homework clubs are spread through the country and does she have any mechanism for checking their effectiveness in helping children?

I do not know the extent to which there can be a proactive approach in dealing with family issues. I have many years experience as a teacher and elected councillor and it strikes me that a great number of children are growing up now with almost no male interaction. I was aware of the fact that I was often the only male role model in many children's lives, and there may not have been sufficient male role models in schools as staff tended to be predominantly female. Is there any way there can be a proactive approach in trying to encourage young women not to have children until there is a more settled family position? That would be tremendously beneficial for the children. Do the witnesses deal with what is presented?

The following issue should not reflect poorly on the witnesses as it is a problem throughout society. There seems to be far too many layers of bureaucracy and perhaps in child care, there are too many bureaucratic levels between the Family Support Agency, county child care committees and schools, etc. Is there any way the process can be streamlined, which would ultimately be to the benefit of children? They, along with their families, are the most important people involved in these issues.

Like my colleague, Deputy Maloney, I have had long dealings with Mr. Horan and endorse everything that my colleague said. I will not repeat his comments, although that is not because I disagree with them. I know the significant positive impact that Mr. Horan has made in south Dublin. Having known him for so long, I have no doubt he will try to check statistically the progress of all the people who go through Oberstown and the extent to which they manage to lead more productive lives after leaving. In terms of the work in Oberstown, statistically Mr. Horan can check on the progress of all the people who go through Oberstown and the extent to which they manage to lead more productive lives after leaving those institutions. If that happens it is of huge benefit to them and to society and from my knowledge of Mr. Horan and the innovative approach he has taken to many issues, I have no doubt that will be at the forefront of what he is doing. I wish both witnesses well.

Senator Colm Burke

I thank the witnesses for attending and giving a detailed submission. My apologies for not being present for all of the submission. Unfortunately, a vote was called in the Seanad just as they were about to start their presentation. My question may be slightly off-----

Chairman

I am sorry to interrupt the Senator but a vote has been called in the Seanad. The Senator has six minutes anyway.

Senator Colm Burke

I have dealt with the courts system and have some experience of dealing with young people in that I was chairperson of a board of management where we had over 50 young people in training who had dropped out of school, the vast majority of whom were referred to us by the Garda. It was a FÁS funded project which worked out reasonably well in that many of the young people ended up in employment when otherwise they may have ended up in St. Patrick's Institution.

The issue I raise relates to my brief experience of dealing with the courts. Regarding the Judiciary, have we done enough in terms of dealing with young people? Could we do much more in that regard? In fairness, the people in the Probation Service provide excellent support and excellent reports to the courts but on a few occasions I found there could be more understanding from the judicial side and the courts system generally. What are the witnesses' view on that? I do not want to put anyone in an awkward position on this but giving someone a custodial sentence marks them for life, although the Probation Service has done a superb jobs in recent years when one considers the numbers with which it must cope. Do the witnesses believe much more could be done within the legal system to deal with this issue?

Chairman

I agree with Senator Burke regarding the Probation Service and the issue of custodial sentences, particularly for young people. Mr. Horan made reference to St. Patrick's Institution. It is incumbent on all of us to move away from that type of institutional facility because as Senator Burke stated, it is about leaving a mark on young people that we should be trying to rehabilitate or work with rather than putting them into those institutions.

Ms Sharon Foley

I will take Deputy Dowds's question on the work that could be done around preventing single parenthood. Wearing my cap from previous work in the Crisis Pregnancy Agency, the biggest thing we can do to prevent single parenthood and that unstable family formation is encourage ambition. The most important thing one can bring to a young person's life is ambition to do something different. The way we do that through the family resource centres is by working with the mothers who create a different set of expectations for their children and their lives thereon. The Deputy will have seen that as a teacher in school where the parents are motivated to work with their children and to change their lives. That is the great strength that is brought in there.

I agree with the Deputy's sentiment regarding the streamlining of services at a local level. Many lessons should be learned from the integration of the Leader and partnership programmes, how they did and did not work and the way that created difficulties.

The family resource centres have set themselves up to work in the area of early family support and they work closely with the Health Service Executive, particularly at a local level. At the Family Support Agency level they are working with the child services element of the HSE on a service delivery model and how that will work in the future. They are thinking about those questions and examining that area.

I will ask Mr. O'Dea to answer the question on homework clubs, which is beyond my depth of knowledge.

Mr. Bill O’Dea

Regarding the homework clubs, and this links in with the proactivity of the centres in their communities, the family resource centres are managed by voluntary boards of management and they proactively engage with the community to get a representative board to run the centre. The extent of the activities that run in each centre is determined by the demand within the community and the number of groups. The homework clubs will not be in every centre throughout the country but in centres where there is a perceived need for a homework club.

In terms of the extent to which the agency will see the effectiveness of the homework clubs, each family resource centre puts together what is called a work plan for a three-year period and it is funded on the basis of that work plan for that three-year period by the Family Support Agency. Targets are set within that as to what will be achieved under the various headings be they homework clubs, after school clubs, personal development and programmed and unprogrammed activities. In that respect the agency gets a report on an annual basis from the individual family resources agencies. The Family Support Agency staff that manage the family resource centre programme are engaged on a weekly basis with the individual family resource centres. One of the advantages is that the staff of the agency have the expertise and the ongoing regular communication with the individual FRCs around the country. They also have the support of two separate support agencies which work daily with the family resource centres in identifying the needs within their area, identifying targets and putting together the various reports and plans and accounting for the way they achieve what is required within the community.

The Deputy made a point on the bureaucratic layers. As part of the transition of the Family Support Agency into the child and family support agency in 2013, the agency is part of the project team that is working on that. Two elements of that project plan and part of the work of the Family Support Agency is that, working with our key stakeholders on the family resource centre and council grants side of the house, which account for 93% of the funding we administer, we must put together a position paper for each of those programmes to demonstrate the way those two programmes will fit within the new service delivery model within the new child and family support agency. We have almost completed the first paper, which is to be finished by the end of this month. We are working with the HSE child and family services in putting that together as a general paper which will position how the family resource centre programme will go into the new service delivery model within the new child and family support agency.

Mr. Joe Horan

I thank Deputy Dowds for his comments. He is right in terms of the tracking scenario we talked about. We must have evidence-based initiatives and examine the issues. I set out the objectives which were to end up with a better outcome for the young person in the institution. In terms of how they are followed through, I understand some research has been done but I would like to see that embedded in the process. That is very much part of what should be done in terms of the change in process.

In terms of the way that data is collated, as we move towards better information systems we should have interchangeable data. In south Dublin we signed up to data sharing protocols which are very safe in that the data is anonymised. It can be done by way of case studies, etc., but it is the learning that is important. That is something that we would pursue.

Senator Burke made reference to the Probation Service. Much of the work we are doing in regard to the Safe Place and Life Cycle initiatives and trying to identify the things that impact on the individual is important. The examples I would give are the restorative practices. We examined the Restorative City concept in Hull in the context of the initiatives in Tallaght. They are important. People stumble at different times but we must find our way to ensure the work done by the various agencies is getting to the individual.

Much of what we have been trying to do is determine if the resources are being allocated on the basis of demand, and if the outcomes can be measured. That is why information systems are critical to that because we are guiding the initiatives. Some of the evidence-based ones in which we are involved are controlled studies which inform us but certain aspects which seem wonderful in theory do not get the outcomes. That needs to be taken into account. These matters are important, as are getting on with the job, preventing young people getting in there and trying to have interaction afterwards. These elements feed one another so we can change things to accommodate the learning in a well-defined process that is properly capturing data.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Horan, Mr. O'Dea, Ms Foley and Mr. Kelleher for attending. I wish them every success in their roles. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children is appreciative of the frankness of the exchange of views with the witnesses and of the presentation. The committee would like to continue the engagement with both boards and to invite them to return within 12 months to review how they got on and the progress made in their tenure. While it will not be a report card, the witnesses are welcome to return before the committee. The committee may visit Oberstown in the coming months and that visit can be arranged when the board has settled down and bedded in. I also thank the Oireachtas Library's research service for its co-operation.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 15 March 2012.