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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 26 Apr 2012

Childhood Obesity: Discussion (Resumed)

I remind members and those in the Gallery that mobile phones should be completely switched off for the duration of the meeting. Apologies have been received from Deputies Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Seamus Healy and Eamonn Maloney and Senators Colm Burke and Marc MacSharry. Today we are continuing our series of hearings on childhood obesity. I welcome Professor Donal O'Shea, Professor Carlos Blanco, Professor Mark Hanson and Professor Niall Moyna, all of whom are esteemed professionals. They have completed a body of work and been very much to the forefront in tackling this issue. They have put forward solutions and perspectives on the issue, not just from a medical perspective. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome our distinguished visitors and I ask Professor O'Shea to make the opening presentation.

Professor Donal O’Shea

On behalf of the four of us on the delegation I thank the committee for inviting us. We are delighted to have the opportunity to make presentations and to take questions from members. We held our own private session while the committee was meeting in private session-----

I apologise for the delay.

Professor Donal O’Shea

No, it was very useful. We are pretty unanimous in the message we bring. I am the potential odd person out because I run an adult treatment unit but the emphasis in dealing with the obesity problem has to be prevention, prevention and prevention and it has to be focused on the kids. I will say my little bit about access to treatment but the most important aspect is prevention.

Obesity is undoubtedly the No. 1 social and health burden facing the developed world. Between 5,000 and 6,000 deaths in this country in a year are caused by overweight and obesity. Suicide deaths number 400 to 500 a year while deaths on the road number 250. There are prevention and management strategies in place to deal with road deaths; however, we seem to have no coherent plan as yet for dealing with the issue of overweight and obesity.

The normal weight for the average European male finishes at 12 stone two pounds and most people still think in stones and pounds but I have provided the weight in kilogrammes in the submission. The average weight for a woman is 10 stone three pounds. There is no doubt the biggest impact on weight is when one is in the normal or slightly overweight category. By the time a person comes to my clinic or to Professor Blanco's and Dr. Cody's clinic in Crumlin, it is really difficult because the body defends against weight loss like it defends against cancer or against infection. A total of 60% of the female population and about 70% of the male population are overweight or obese. This has increased from about 8% or 9% 40 years ago. This is probably about the population average, as 5% to 8% would be at that overweight-obese end of the spectrum.

Population obesity has doubled over the past 30 years but the number at the very severe end of the scale, the body mass index of 50, has increased tenfold; the number with a body mass index over 40 has increased fivefold. This is why treatment services are crippled.

Obesity is not like smoking because the effects of smoking are seen in the heart and the lungs with lung cancer, heart disease and stroke. Obesity and overweight make every bodily complaint worse, with the possible exception of osteoporosis. The weighed down skeleton tries to build up the bones to support the extra weight but everything else - depression, cancer, diabetes - is made worse, as is the outcome from infections.

I will not dwell on the childhood problem as this will be dealt with later. Safe to say we have enough tracking completed to know we are in trouble and the time for evaluating where we are needs to finish. We need to put in place a strategy and evaluate the impact of the strategy, which is why we are so pleased to be here.

I refer to a stunning Finnish study published in the New England Journal of Medicine recently which shows the tracking of childhood overweight and obesity into adulthood. It explains why our statistic of 25% of three year-olds is such a disaster. The study followed 6,000 kids from the age of 12 for approximately 25 years. For a child of normal weight the lifetime risk of being obese is 15%, in this current obesogenic environment. In the case of overweight or obese children, 65% were obese as adults. In the case of children who were obese, 82% were obese as adults. It is very difficult to escape if one allows one’s weight to track from childhood onwards.

The top shelf of the food pyramid, the highly processed foods and drinks, should account for about 5% of our food intake at most. A total of 85% of advertising expenditure is to advertise foods from that top shelf and the majority is aimed at kids. For example, when Katie Taylor, our outstanding female role model goes to the Olympic Games, she will be most closely associated with Lucozade Sport and all the kids who admire her will believe that when they run around and burn 100 calories they will need to drink 150 calories. That is disgusting. She is fantastic, she needs the sponsorship but the effect is that our kids are getting the wrong message.

I refer to the fact which is due to our infrastructure that five times more girls in secondary school drive themselves to school in Ireland than cycle to school. When I read this statistic I thought it meant they are dropped to school by car but it is that five times more girls drive themselves to school than cycle to school. This would have been an extraordinarily unimaginable scenario when most of us were at school.

The good news is that something can be done. We are not here to highlight the problem but rather we are here because the committee knows there is a problem. In my view, Finland is a beacon because the study has tracked the problem and is showing the impact. Studies in the United States have shown that the prevalence of obesity in kids is being turned around. They are doing a number of things: looking at media campaigns; influencing policy - which is what we hope will happen here as a result of this meeting; monitoring kids in school both for weight and physical activity; prioritising physical activity in the curriculum; and encouraging the agriculture sector to prioritise producing the right type of food so that the good shelves of the food pyramid are being developed as opposed to the top shelf foods.

We are here today to answer questions after the presentations and to hopefully help shape recommendations which the committee members could make for a cross-society strategy to help individuals and society to take responsibility. We know that the blame game is wrong and that it does not work.

Professor Carlos Blanco

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to speak to the committee. I have taken the liberty of inviting Professor Hanson, who works with us at the institute, to the meeting. I thank the committee for allowing him to participate.

I am the director of the National Children's Research Centre which is a charity. We deal with child obesity and diabetes. We have funding of approximately €2 million a year. We provide different plans and programmes for children of different ages. We have a teenage obesity programme which aims to solve that problem but we also realise that an obese child does not become obese overnight as it will develop over many years and could even begin in utero. We are trying to solve that problem and to observe what happens in the first year of life. In Cork we are using a big cohort of EU funds to continue a study of 2,800 newborns who were followed, first, for two years and now for five years. We have very good data on maternal health, pregnancy, delivery and the first five years. We expect that approximately 25% to 30% of those infants will be overweight, perhaps obese, at five years - even at two years. We need very good data to see whether we can help to monitor any future intervention. We cannot wait 25 years. In a shorter period we need to have some markers that will tell us we are doing the right thing.

When we were funding this study we also came across one of the possibilities that could help to prevent this problem, namely, education. We looked at some plans that were developed in New Zealand and Southampton for the education of children and, through them, of parents. This is one of our steps to tackle obesity in children. I will leave it now to Professor Hanson to explain the plan developed in Southampton which we have already started to implement in Dublin.

Professor Mark Hanson

I thank Professor Blanco and the committee for inviting me to attend. From what Professor O'Shea has told the committee, it is clear that the problem of obesity is something that occurs across the whole life course. As we age, the risk increases steadily in each of us but more and more we realise that in order to prevent this we need to intervene early. We have been giving a lot of thought to that in Southampton, following some of our epidemiological, or population, cohorts. The diagram on the top of page 2 of the handout shows data we now have which shows how the risk of obesity and all the associated diseases are passed from generation to generation. We know that education is critical here. It is a sad fact that women and their partners who have poor educational attainment very often have a poor diet, take less exercise and tend to be obese. Many pregnancies are unplanned so that by the time the couple realise they have conceived, a lot of the action, in terms of passing risk to the next generation, has already been played out on the stage. Unfortunately, therefore, many women are ill-prepared for pregnancy and make minimal changes to their lifestyle and health during pregnancy. Sadly, we can see this leads to poor infant diet. Poor maternal diet leads to unbalanced diet in infants. If we look at young children at the ages of four and five we can see this is now beginning to affect not only their body composition, the body fat to which Professor O'Shea referred, but also shows in the small levels of skeletal muscle and even the effects on their brains, in appetite control and even their IQ. They then go on to be the children who are likely not to do so well at school and so the cycle of risk continues.

We have done a lot of thinking about the priorities for intervention in this cycle, given that resources are not infinite and that we want to achieve impact within a short period of perhaps three or four years. The red bar on the slide shows that we think that one sensitive point - one may call it the Achilles heel - in this battle might be to attack the adolescent girl and boy of school age in order to promote health literacy in that group with a view to making not only our teenagers of today and tomorrow healthier, but also the babies born today and tomorrow.

That might make one think this intervention should perhaps be conducted in schools. Unfortunately, however, research shows there are significant barriers to implementing sustainable obesity prevention programmes in schools. Often there is not the infrastructure and resources, especially in the low socioeconomic groups one wishes to reach. Teachers are over-stretched in any case, the curriculum is full and there are often no opportunities to reach children out of school so that they can learn outside the classroom, which is where we know much significant learning takes place. Another factor is the pedagogy. We often think, and train our teachers to think, that teaching is a channel of delivery of information rather than a dynamic interaction. Many children feel that those kinds of interactions occur outside school.

We decided therefore there was a need to promote health literacy, in other words, not just knowing about health but actually internalising it and making it part of one's daily life, thinking of adolescents as parents-to-be and recognising that children are very strong arbiters and agents for change within their families. That led us to our project in Southampton, called LifeLab. I am delighted that Professor Blanco and his colleagues at the National Children's Research Centre in Crumlin in Dublin are beginning to pilot a similar kind of programme.

The programme brings together not only schools and local authorities but scientists, health professionals and educators. The message is that it is a hospital and research laboratory - based intervention around the theme of "Me, my health and my children's health". So, what do we do? We do not go into schools to try to get the message across to children. Rather, by augmenting the existing curriculum material we help teachers to start bringing in some important messages. We give them sessions of training and continuing professional development, CPD, so that they have the confidence to engage with this scheme. Then we bring the children into the hospital and the research laboratory. Many, of course, have never been in a hospital or, indeed, in a research environment. They get hands-on experience of some of the research tools we use and meet scientists who are actively engaged in research in their city, trying to prevent the diseases they are beginning to see and hear about that affect them. The slide at the bottom of page 4 gives some examples of some of the activities in their curricular material.

I have provided the committee with some quotes from an assistant head of science. All the science teachers we talk to find this an extremely valuable experience. The children like it. A reference is shown to a key stage 3 student, aged 13 or 14 years. Our data so far shows that this all has a lasting impression, not only in terms of children's perceptions of the diets they eat, the long-term impact these may have and the impact exercise may have on their health, but also on their choices of science subjects at school, a secondary benefit that arises from this scheme. This slide relates to six months after the intervention. The programme has also been evaluated by Ofsted and, in Southampton, by the secondary schools inspector.

In conclusion, we were delighted that we were short-listed for the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council, BBSRC, innovation of the year award for this year. We did not win the prize, unfortunately, but we were delighted to meet Vince Cable who was awarding the prize and explain the impact of this intervention.

I should stop there. I am delighted by the opportunity to extend this idea to Dublin where I believe it can genuinely have a real impact. The opportunity to bring these health and educational issues together under the umbrella of promoting health literacy for children today and the next generation may have a real impact on the problems which we know so well are facing us.

I thank Professor Hanson and Professor Blanco for their presentations. I call Professor Moyna.

Professor Niall Moyna

I thank the committee for its invitation to attend. I have two messages in my presentation and will use slides to keep all the members awake. One concerns the importance of primary prevention; the second is the under-utilised role of physical activity, particularly in our children.

I will start with a quote from Dr. Philip James, who was the chairperson of the British international obesity task force. He said:

We are not dealing with a scientific or medical problem. We are dealing with an enormous economic problem that is already accepted is going to overwhelm every medical system in the world.

We are all aware of the high levels of obesity and overweight among Irish children. In DCU we have undertaken a number of studies, one of which involved 5,000 Irish 15 to 17 year olds. We showed that 15% of them were overweight and 5% were obese. We saw pretty much the same proportions in both boys and girls.

The point about obesity is that it is an insidious disease, as has been noted. It does not occur overnight. An example from the United States, using data from 2006, shows the percentage of the population in each state that was clinically obese. The winner in 2006 was the state of Mississippi, where approximately 30% of the population was clinically obese. The people in Mississippi did not wake up one morning in 2006, look in the mirror and figure out they were obese; it happened over a long period. The blue area shows the states in 1992 where 15% to 19% of adults are obese and the green area shows states where 10% to 14% of adults are obese. As we move from 1992 to 1997, we see states with levels of obesity higher than 20%. As we move onto 2001, we can see that people in Mississippi were not very happy as they have obesity rates greater than 25%. From 2003 to 2006, more than 30% of the population of some states are clinically obese. The trend continues every year up to 2009. Even with billions of dollars spent, the population of America is becoming obese.

They started to collect the same information on children aged ten to 17 years. The next chart shows the number of overweight children from 2003 to 2007. By 2007, over 30% were obese, with an increase of 18% in the number of female children who were overweight and an increase of 10% overall. The trend is the same in the measure of obesity. As Professor O'Shea alluded to, once the child becomes obese, he or she has an 80% likelihood of remaining obese for the rest of his or her life. The issue is to arrest that and stop it from happening in the first place.

Two environmental factors cause obesity, what one eats and what one burns. The factors that determine this are the basal metabolic rate, the resting rate, and the other key determinant of our energy expenditure, our physical activity. When these two are in balance, our weight remains stable. If we eat more than we consume, we go into a positive energy balance and weight increases. We all go on a diet when that happens. The good news is that every diet works; the bad news is that every diet works only in the short term. Dieting asks people to change their behaviour, which is the hardest thing to do. The easiest thing to do is to adopt a behaviour in the first place. The solution should be primary prevention. Unfortunately, we are starting to use other interventions for children who are morbidly obese, including pharmacological therapy and surgical intervention. It is pretty sad to have prepubescent kids undergoing stomach reduction surgery at that age. We do not know the long-term issues for the rest of their lives.

The other side of the equation is energy expenditure, which is very important. If one burns more calories than one takes in, body weight will reduce. Ideally, we like to maintain an equilibrium. The current model is that our obesity problem is due to the fact that children are eating more calories than they expend. That is the prevalent view but it looks only at one side of the equation. The presumption is that the child has not increased caloric intake in 30 years but because our physical activity levels have decreased, the small decrease results in an increased caloric intake relative to expenditure. Even if kids eat what they were eating 30 years ago, our body weight will increase because we are exercising less. We spent too much time on caloric intake and not enough on energy expenditure. I have provided pictures of nine DCU athletes. Three of them have already qualified for the Olympics and the other six are looking to qualify. Each of them consumes twice the number of calories compared to the average male or female of the same age. I do not see much fat or body weight on the athletes because they expend what they eat through physical activity. The take-home message is that we are underestimating this aspect from the health perspective as well as the obesity perspective.

Many years ago, we were hunters and gatherers and our genes have evolved to support a physically active lifestyle. Our genes have not changed in the past 10,000 years and if we do not get regular exercise on a daily basis, our genes maladapt and we get hyperkinetic diseases, which are due to inactivity or lifestyle. Such diseases, such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, site-specific cancers, frailty and osteoporosis, are the main causes of expenditure in our health care budget.

I have also provided the committee with pictures of our children 30 years ago. The prevalence of technological innovation means we are engineering activity out of our lives. The vast majority of children lead sedentary lifestyles. Even if they eat what they were eating 30 years ago, their body weight is increasing and the balance is in disequilibrium because they are so inactive. Sedentary behaviour is known to be an independent risk factor for at least 35 health conditions. A new term is emerging, sedentary death syndrome, which describes the sedentary lifestyle mediated diseases resulting in premature morbidity. These all have their genesis during childhood and adolescence. There should be primary prevention during those stages.

It is recommended that Irish teenage boys and girls should get 60 minutes of moderate to vigorous intensity activity every day. A study of 5,000 teenagers shows that 65% of Irish teenagers do not meet those recommendations. This breaks down into seven out of ten Irish girls and almost six out of ten Irish boys. Another study assessed the fitness of Irish boys and girls using a bleep test, where the more runs one can do, the fitter one is. The normal weight boys could do 77 runs but the obese boys could only do 42. The best predictor of health and how long one will live is aerobic fitness. One rarely sees people who are aerobically trained going to a primary care physician with multiple risk factors for disease. However, the worrying trend for me is among girls. Normal weight girls had the same fitness level as the obese boys. If one is not physically fit, how can one perform physical activity and burn calories? It is an important aspect of the problem.

It is also recommended that prepubescent kids, prior to secondary school, should accumulate approximately 15,000 steps per day. A study by Dr. Catherine Woods on fifth and sixth class primary schoolchildren shows that 11% of kids meet the recommendations during the week and 9% at the weekend. It is alarming and the trend is occurring at a younger and younger age.

Another study showed that, on average, six out of ten Irish secondary school children commute to school in an inactive fashion, either by car, train or another mode of transport. Only four out of ten actively commute and the figure is higher for girls than boys. Another published paper shows that if a child lives more than 2 km from the school, he or she will not actively commute to school. For every kilometre beyond 2 km, the likelihood increases that they will not actively commute to school. This is a major transportation issue.

It is extremely important that our kids are physically active and that we reduce obesity. I have displayed a chart showing the coronary arteries. In the wall of the arteries, plaque begins to accumulate. The earlier the child is exposed to risk factors, such as obesity, inactivity, smoking and high levels of glucose, the earlier this plaque begins to occur. Over a lifetime, the plaque ruptures and we get a clot, which causes the majority of heart attacks. This occurs through plaque that began to develop not in the 20s and 30s but in prepubescent kids. This is due to lifestyle. The bad news is that four out of ten women and six out of ten men will have a heart attack or sudden death as their initial presentation and they have heart disease due to ruptured plaque. The etiology of these diseases is that they begin early in life.

Plaque in the arteries of more than 0.5 mm is significant. A recent study published in the United States reported on autopsies carried out on children who died in motor vehicle accidents. The study used ultrasound to look at the children's arteries and, amazingly, two out of ten 13 to 18-year-olds had a significant build-up of plaque in the coronary arteries. I do not know if this group were obese kids but my calculation was that they were inactive and overweight kids.

We can measure a biomarker in our blood called C-reactive protein and it predicts the risk for cardiovascular disease. Under normal circumstances, it should be less than level 1. Levels 1 to 3 have an increased risk and those above level 3 have an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. A study of a population of Irish teenagers showed that an obese teenager has a level of 3.8. If I produced an ultrasound image, it would show a significant lesion in one of their coronary arteries. These are Irish kids, not American kids. The normal weight kids are perfect but the overweight kids are at risk and the obese kids have very high levels of C - reactive protein, which is a marker of inflammation and atherosclerosis. When we group them by fitness level, we see the same trend. The kids who were highly fit or moderately active were in the normal range, less than 1, while the kids who were untrained or sedentary were at 3.3.

Physical activity is extremely important for our children and not just in the context of obesity. Every effort should be made to develop appropriate levels of fitness in our schools. Ireland should become the model for the rest of the world in this regard. I was involved in a small project with RTE recently in which 10,000 kids took part in order to discover which first-year class could improve the most over a six-week period. The changes that took place in six weeks were phenomenal. I got letters from parents thanking me for getting children, particularly young girls, involved. These children were not involved in sport normally, but because we were giving the prize to the school that improved the most, their result was just as important as that of the fittest in the class.

In addition to activity being important in the context of obesity, it improves mental health, reduces rule-breaking behaviour, improves attention span and classroom behaviour, has a positive impact on academic performance and can play a significant role in the enrichment of the child's social life, development and social interaction.

I thank our four witnesses for their excellent presentations.

I join with the chairman in welcoming the witnesses. This is the second of a series of meetings on this issue and it is long past time the country took serious action to address an issue that has been progressively worsening. International comparisons show the situation here has deteriorated significantly and many other countries have a similar problem. Professor Moyna's graph showed how in the United States adult obesity has increased and how it is mirrored by child obesity. However, the presentation we had here last week showed there had been a small improvement in adult obesity levels, while childhood obesity rates continue to increase. What comment would the witnesses make on that?

With regard to Professor Hanson's pilot scheme, how many participated in it and how practical would it be to expand it? What is needed in order for it to be expanded and what costs would be associated with doing something similar here? We have seen a number of pilot schemes, but we need to move beyond the pilot schemes and develop a serious solution because the problem is expanding yearly and becoming more difficult. Unless we develop a strategy that can be implemented throughout the country, we will be just tipping around at the edges for many more years while the situation deteriorates.

I thank the witnesses. They have brought us a series of stark messages and these messages need to be transmitted to the people. A study done in the North of Ireland has come up with precisely the same frightening findings outlined by the witnesses.

There are dimensions to this issue that the committee and the Government need to consider. Health economics are not the only challenge we face. Personal economics are also a challenge, as research has shown there has been a change in the population pattern in this regard. Forty years ago, lower income families took more exercise and ate more healthily than middle and higher income families. This has reversed totally. It is not part of the witnesses' remit, but this committee and the Government must look at pricing policy. My philosophy is that we must make it easy for people to do the right thing and make it difficult for them to do the wrong thing. We should consider lower prices for healthy foods and higher prices for unhealthy foods. We should take the additional income from the sale of less healthy food and put it towards making more recreational and sporting facilities available for young people.

I thank the witnesses for the messages they have brought to us today. They have done us and the people we represent a good service by their testimony.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations which make a compelling case for action. While we knew obesity was an issue, the evidence has been put starkly before us. I have questions I would like to explore further. Professor O'Shea spoke about Finland being a beacon in this area. Why is that? We know and acknowledge the problem, but the issue for us is to decide on the proper response.

Food labelling is one issue and different member states have taken different approaches to it. I have yet to be convinced on how action on food labelling would help. Professor Moyna emphasised physical activity and spoke about structured and unstructured activity and how we can ensure we get a balance. The Growing Up in Ireland national longitudinal study of children shows us that children see unstructured activity as "doing nothing" time. When I was a child, doing nothing time meant getting out, running around and doing things. How do we ensure that balance?

School meals were mentioned in the context of where Finland made improvements. Last week, research showed that one in five children here goes to school or to bed hungry. What surprised me in that research was that this was not about poverty but about having the right food in the house for children. It is easy for us to assume that children going hungry means poverty, but in fact it was more about there not being the right foods in the house. The issue concerns training children. I visited a club in Blanchardstown which provides school meals and I noticed that one child was eating dry pot noodles over a bin. Pot noodles would not be my favourite food, but the child was eating them. The club ran a training session for parents on making lunches for children, and the child in question now makes tuna wraps to bring to school. These are more nutritious and cost less money. We must take a practical approach also and provide training on suitable foods. Is this an issue?

On the gender issue, I knew there was a difference, but did not realise it was so stark. Do we need to take a different approach for the different genders and do we need a targeted approach in that regard?

I will ask our witnesses to respond and then we will return to committee members.

Professor Donal O’Shea

I will address the aspects that are relevant to me. On the decrease in adult rates of obesity, I want the problem to get better. The evidence is that the problem is levelling off in the United States in adults, at 33% and that in Europe the level is heading up to approximately 33%. I have not seen convincing evidence that Ireland is levelling off at an adult level yet and it is important that is clear to the committee. I would like to come back to the committee with the latest accurate adult data, because I do not think we are levelling off yet. However, there are signs of hope that we can turn the childhood levels around in US data.

Deputy Colreavy spoke about getting the stark message out to everybody. We discussed whether we needed to say how bad the problem was because we know it and everybody knows it. However, in my view it needs to be restated at every opportunity that the problem is as bad as it is. The cost to the health care system in the United States is calculated at 21% of the health care spend which would be €3,000 million in Irish terms. This is the health aspect without even considering the social consequences.

On the question of pricing policy and making the right choice the easier choice, this is a fundamental issue in turning society around. This will involve examining pricing policies and also incentivising the healthier foods. This is a political issue and policy-makers will have to influence the Departments involved.

I will play devil's advocate. Even though we have increased taxes on cigarettes, people are still smoking. The professor referred to the top shelf in his presentation and he mentioned a figure of 5%.

Professor Donal O’Shea

It is recommended we should eat very little off the top shelf.

Will pricing in itself change the culture and behavioural attitude?

Professor Donal O’Shea

Fiscal measures are one of the few measures that have been shown to influence drinking and smoking. I am not so sure it has yet been shown to influence eating behaviour but it certainly has influenced consumption and food is a consumed item. There is strong evidence that fiscal measures are one of the few measures that will make a difference and this has to be considered.

I have met the people who run the studies in Finland. There is no doubt when one studies the graph that Finland has levelled out ahead of other countries and has shown it is possible. Has the Senator a specific query about the practice in Finland?

Professor Donal O’Shea

They undertook a list of measures across every aspect of society, through pricing, farming, school education, physical activity. We need to tease out the specific measures.

It would be useful if we could be provided with more information. I would like to learn about the weight monitoring in schools.

Professor Donal O’Shea

Yes, weight monitoring in schools is a critical measure.

Would Professor O'Shea advocate weighing every student in school?

Professor Donal O’Shea

I would advocate lifelong weight and physical activity awareness. This can only be achieved by monitoring. It has to be done with sensitivity but there are ways of doing it with sensitivity. Resources will be required. On the question of whether food labelling makes a difference, no single initiative makes a difference and this is where the argument falls down. For example, the weighing of children at school, the labelling of food, changing the physical education curriculum, these measures on their own will not make a difference; no one measure makes a difference. A tax on high-sugar foods will not make a difference. However, as policy-makers we have to grasp the nettle. We need to do all those things.

Professor Carlos Blanco

This discussion highlights the need to educate people. We cannot change things for them; they must change things for themselves and they must make a choice. Children depend on their parents for their food for many years and so it is the parents who make the choices. We have to educate them to choose healthy alternatives in the supermarket. In general, very often, obese infants live in a family whose members are obese. Therefore, we have to deal with a problem affecting the whole family in many cases. We have to educate them to make good choices. It is very important that babies are born to healthy mothers in order to prolong that healthiness in a new generation.

As regards sports facilities, the United States has the best sporting facilities in the world but it has 33% obesity. It is not question of sports facilities but rather educating people. On the question of weight monitoring in schools, there is an issue about bullying and the stigmatisation of overweight children when monitoring is carried out. Nevertheless, the problem of obesity is significant. Obesity is many things all together and they all have to be dealt with. One of the ways to tackle the problem is by means of weight monitoring to raise awareness about the dangers of obesity. The parents need to understand that an obese child is stigmatised among his or her peers and will also be stigmatised as an adult in the future. I agree that general practitioners should weigh infants because weight is such an important aspect of health.

Professor Donal O’Shea

If I may expand that point, the study on growing up in Ireland showed that at age three years, 25% are overweight or obese; at age nine years, 25% are overweight or obese. The study was able to psychologically assess the nine-year-old cohort and it found they had low self-concept, low self-image and low self-esteem, which is the same profile as any child who is abused in any way. The failure to grasp the nettle means that society will be allowed continue to batten our children into that kind of mindset. It is possible this will have a negative effect on a tiny percentage but we have to be brave enough to say we cannot allow this sustained abuse of 25% of our kids.

Professor Carlos Blanco

It is the same as with the referendum in that people have to be educated to enable them to choose between "Yes" or "No" and with regard to obesity, people have to be educated in order to choose whether to be obese or not.

I hope we will advocate appropriately.

Professor Mark Hanson

Deputy Donohoe asked about the pilot study in Southampton. It is just that, a pilot study. I do not make great pretensions that we have been able to carry out a full-blown study and achieve a major impact across the city. However, it has enabled us to demonstrate that this kind of approach can be extremely effective and also it has enabled us to do an approximate costing of the study. The calculations are that it would cost about £50 to take each student in Southampton through the LifeLab programme. The impact and potential benefits of the programme in terms of chronic disease reduction and obesity shows that it is very cost-effective.

We now have the funding to develop a dedicated facility for LifeLab in our general hospital in Southampton. It does not need to be very fancy but it has to be a classroom which takes the children out of their comfort zone and makes their learning context-specific in this sense. This will enable us, by our calculations, to take 5,000 students a year through this facility. It has been received with great enthusiasm by teachers and students across the city. It is important to emphasise that our strategy is not adding anything new to the curriculum and it is not burdening the teachers with additional work because this would not be well received. Instead it is helping them to make their biology, health and society and food technology lessons more interesting. This is one of the reasons it has been taken up with such enthusiasm. Senator van Turnhout mentioned the question of gender effects. It is very striking in all our data that educational attainment and knowledge of these matters is sometimes less in girls than in boys and indeed, the will to do something about it seems to be less in girls than in boys, even though when they become pregnant, like every girl or woman they want to do the best for their baby. I refer to a point made by Professor Blanco that it is not just a question of giving people information and it is certainly not about making people feel they are being blamed for their behaviour but rather it is about empowering them, helping them to own it and to make their own choices.

I refer to a point made by Professor Moyna about carotid artery disease. We have data from a cohort in Southampton that shows that the woman's diet in pregnancy, especially in early pregnancy, relates to the cardiovascular function and structure of the carotid artery supplying the brain in nine year old children. This is data from a cohort of 3,000 pregnancies in Southampton. They are normal women. They are not grossly obese and they do not have a particular health risk yet, nonetheless, within the normal diets of the women in pregnancy we can see that what they eat, how much they eat and how balanced it is biases the cardiovascular structure and function of their children at age nine. They are already on this trajectory of risk. That must mean we are worried but it also offers hope because potentially we can do something about it if we start early enough.

Professor Niall Moyna

I wish to make two points. The first question on structured versus unstructured or incidental activity is a very important one. Structured activity is more or less sport; it is organised sport and some 30% or 40% of children participate in that. Unstructured or incidental activity is the activity in which we all engaged as we grew up such as playing on the green and that sort of activity but that type of activity has been engineered out of our lives. There is an emerging area of research called sedentary biology. Children are spending increasingly more time looking at screens, be it mobile phones, computers, iPads or televisions, than they are in any form of activity. We have to find ways to get unstructured incidental activity back into their lives. One of the suggestions I have made is that the school desk should be designed in such a way that every third period it would lift up and the pupils would stand during that class. Standing for that time would activate a hormone that breaks down lipids. I am sure all the members will ask for one of those stand up desks in their offices after hearing this. It is extremely important we find ways to get incidental activity back into the lives of children.

Given the economic position we are in, is it realistic to change the fabric of classrooms? I was a teacher and I could imagine that proposed scenario in a classroom of 30 children in the third period of a Friday morning. Is it a realistic proposal?

Professor Niall Moyna

I do not think it could be done in every school. Rather than have every child in a school stand up, another way to achieve this would be for three or five minutes to be taken off every class per day and a 15 minute period to be scheduled every day for a class to go for a walk or to stand during that period unsupervised. There are many ways to achieve this. We have to be imaginative about how it would be done.

I fully agree with Professor Moyna regarding sedentary behaviour. He is 100% right.

Professor Niall Moyna

In regard to the levels of obesity in males, I was referring to 2009. I agree with Dr. O'Shea. It has tended to level off in the United States but the levels of morbid obesity there have gone through the roof. A BMI of 30 is obese and one in every 2,000 Americans have a BMI above 50, which means they cannot sit in a chair or on a seat in an aeroplane. The blood pressure cuff will not go around their arm. We can think of all the areas their size impacts on their lives and that is the trajectory they are on. Trying to arrest that is extremely important.

The next speaker is Senator Gilroy to be followed by Deputies Conway and Kelleher.

I welcome the witnesses to the committee and thank them for their rather disconcerting presentations. It makes me feel like skipping my dinner or at least the dessert. The scale and the complexity of the challenge facing us is enormous. I read in an ESRI report of 2009 that physical education activity in Irish schools is decreasing from the recommended vigorous exercise of two hours per week and that decrease is more pronounced as children move from primary school into secondary school. That points to the scale of the problem and the difficulty we will face in having a meaningful input to try to make a difference.

I have many questions. How many calories would one need to burn off to lose 1 lb?

Professor Niall Moyna

Some 3,500----

Some 3,500 ...

Professor Niall Moyna

-----to lose 1 lb of fat. I am sure that is what the Senator would want to burn.

The Senator will have to start running.

A treaty referendum is coming up and that will present a good opportunity.

It seems the witnesses are saying there are patterns of risk behaviour laid down at a very early age that determine adult behaviour. Apart from being overweight, are there any other traits or characteristics, such as addictive behaviour, that would indicate risk at any early age? I am concerned regarding the diagrammatic representation on page 2 of Professor Hanson's presentation because it seems to touch on just about every stereotype of which we know - it shows a person who is overweight being ill-prepared for pregnancy, having a poor diet, low IQ and that creates a cycle. A great number of variables contribute to poor educational attainment and I would like Professor Hanson to point to some of the literature which isolates the variable of obesity over, say, inequality, marginalisation, unemployment and poverty, all of which also contribute to low educational attainment. That representation in the presentation seems very stereotypical.

While none of the states in America is doing terribly well in addressing the issue of obesity, can Professor Moyna indicate the factors that lead to some states doing worse than others? He referred to Mississippi. Will he indicate if there is a cultural trait or what is the dynamic at work in that state compared with its neighbouring state? I have many other questions but I will leave it at that for the time being.

I echo the sentiments of previous speakers regarding the witnesses' enlightening presentations. As someone who struggles with my weight on an ongoing basis, they have given me a lot of food for thought, pardon the pun, following on from the meeting.

I would like to focus on teenage girls in particular, for whom this issue is a matter of huge concern, and I am the mother of a daughter. Professor Moyna might be familiar with the policy initiative, Smarter Travel, introduced by the Department of Transport to encouraging a modal change away from the car - to get teenage girls out of cars and on to bikes and footpaths. The Department has provided funding for three centres in Ireland, one of which is in Dungarvan, County Waterford, which I represent. Would Professor Moyna link in with the Smarter Travel initiative and examine the results derived from it? A good deal of money has been allocated for this initiative not only to provide the infrastructure but, for the first time, to tackle behavioural change, and I believe that will be significant.

In preparation for our submission regarding that initiative, we sampled cohorts of teenagers in Dungarvan and found the main reason girls do not cycle or walk to school is that it would cause them to sweat. That is the No. 1 reason. It is to do with appearance and not about not being able to cycle a bike or not having the infrastructure in place. Many changes need to happen in terms of how young women are expected to present themselves by society, the pressures on them to feel attractive and all that kind of thing. That is very important. This may be a little outside the realm of the subject of the conversation we are having today but the No. 1 reason teenage girls do not want to get on the bike or on the footpath is that it could cause them to sweat.

Somebody made the point that the issue before us is complex and difficult but I argue it is not. A greater person than me, poor Gerry Ryan, used to say on the radio that "You could eat less and move more", and essentially that is what is required. It is to try to allow people the opportunity to do that. I would welcome the witnesses' input in monitoring some of the modal change that will happen, hopefully, in Dungarvan, Westport and Limerick, the three pilot sites for the Smarter Travel initiative. In particular, we need to start focusing on women in regard to this issue.

Professor Blanco spoke about pregnancy and he is monitoring 800 births in Cork over the next five years. How will those babies be selected and against what will his monitoring be measured? Is he measuring the results against a maternity hospital somewhere else? What are the types of things we need to start doing on a universal basis for women to ensure they have a safe pregnancy and that the baby has a safe delivery? Professor Hanson alluded to this as well. Is there data to show that the birth itself is a factor in terms of the trajectory of the child with regard to his or her weight and in terms of a Caesarian birth versus natural birth? Is that something he is measuring?

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations. I do not want to be repetitive but we could stay here for a very long time discussing this particular issue which is the biggest challenge facing us in the longer term. With the immediacy of budgetary difficulties in the health services, preventive medicine takes a nose-dive in the list of priorities. This is not a political point; it is a fact of life with regard to longer strategic planning and we should all be conscious of it.

Have research studies been conducted at Europe-wide level as opposed to various studies scattered throughout the countries in Europe? Is there a template international study from which we can draw? Is there a socioeconomic backdrop to childhood obesity and obesity in general? Is there an ethnic issue? Does it involve DNA, genetics or culture? Are these part and parcel of it and, if so, must they be addressed not only on a broader basis but also through targeting individual groups who may have challenges with regard to obesity?

The figures and statistics on female obesity point to a lack of exercise and a very sedentary lifestyle and in this regard I am quite concerned about my young girls. There is a broader issue and I have already raised the matter of the pressure on girls from wafer-thin role models such as Kate Moss and the undercurrent from advertising that if one smokes cigarettes one eats less and so will look like Kate Moss. Along with this, female sports are very low down the agenda. There is a small crowd in Croke Park for the all-Ireland camogie final but there is a huge crowd for the men's final. We do not prioritise the excellent sporting role models we have in this country. We should encourage sponsorship and perhaps incentivise it so more of an effort is made to promote positive Irish role models, particularly among our sporting elite. We should consider this when we speak about issues such as drink sponsorship.

The obvious place to monitor, assess and address the issue of childhood obesity is in schools through promoting activity. While we have a more sedentary lifestyle because of technology and we are either in front of the television or stuck on our iPods and iPhones, technology should also free up more time in schools. Classes could be shortened slightly because pupils are not writing down as much and rote-type education has gone. Perhaps more time could be made available for physical activity. This is an issue the committee may be able to discuss with the Department of Education and Skills and others to see whether something can be done. If physical activity, along with healthy eating, is the key to this then we have the solution and it is just a case of implementing it. The education system has a very proactive role to play in this. I know issues and challenges will arise but we will just have to confront and address them as they do.

The United States is in the lead with regard to having difficulties with obesity in general and the witnesses stated it takes up 21% of the health budget. How much investment in prevention has been made? The United States health model is very often driven by the problems as opposed to prevention. Is there an issue with health insurance with regard to preventive medicine and incentivising prevention? If one smokes there is a surcharge on one's health insurance because one is a higher risk. This is an incentive in itself not to smoke. Is there any such incentive in other countries? Is there any country with a similar make up to us which has cracked this issue? If so which country is it?

Professor Donal O’Shea

To answer Senator Gilroy's question on the addictive behaviour involved in overweight and obesity, there are big predictive factors with studies conducted 50 and 40 years ago showing twins separated at birth and brought up in different environments reached the same weight, so it is as close as height is to being genetically determined. The problem is that over the past 40 years we have poured the obesogenic environment on top of it so instead of 6% of people being obese, 26% are obese and the "go large" category of BMI over 50 has increased hugely.

Addictive behaviour underpins most of what human beings are about in one shape or form. Food addiction issues apply to approximately 10% of the morbidly obese population so it is a minority issue and it applies to a smaller percentage of the more general overweight and obese population. It must be assessed, which comes back to body image. Young women were mentioned, but increasingly it is an issue for young men. With the arrival of Hollister, the perfect bodyguard image, and bags showing the perfect male body, 15 year old boys see that image being put forward as attractive. It is unobtainable and clearly the majority do not lead the lifestyle to attain it. Body image distortion means male anorexia and eating disorders are increasing much more rapidly than female anorexia.

Have we tried to combat this with a communication message? Professor O'Shea is correct. I see it in schools where young boys and girls compete in the vanity stakes.

Professor Donal O’Shea

It is about moderation in everything and balance. There is no easy answer to it.

Deputy Kelleher made a good point. I find more young people smoke as an appetite suppressant.

Professor Donal O’Shea

The term "alcorexia" is also entering the language whereby young girls in particular save their calories for vodka and coke and chocolate. Therefore, a small percentage of them confine their calories to alcohol. At the edges we have many problems but for the majority in the middle, about whom we are speaking, most kids want to be healthy and when they are encouraged to change and become healthier they are delighted. They feel better and do better in school. We must be cognisant of the edges and issues such as male anorexia and body image, but we must address the central problem which is with regard to 90% or 95% of the population.

When I started my job I was approximately two and a half stone overweight. I began lecturing on obesity and overweight and after about a year I realised I needed to get down to a normal weight. It took approximately five years and that was fine. Professor Moyna told me I looked thin when I arrived this morning and I thank him. It is a struggle. It is about the right and healthy choice being the easy choice. It is about education so the right foodstuffs are at home and if one is tempted the worst one can do is have an apple or a digestive biscuit as opposed to a large quantity of really unhealthy food. It is not complex. At an individual level it is simple but at policy-making level it is extraordinarily complex and almost insoluble. However, it is not that it cannot be solved. We must study other countries, take the best bits and do our best.

Deputy Kelleher mentioned strategic planning to address this issue. If we seek to generate income from, for example, a sugar, sweet and drink tax, which is being examined by the special action group for obesity, any finance that is generated from fiscal measures must be put into prevention and into the future of our children's health. We will have to get resources to do this properly. The World Health Organization is looking closely at what Ireland is trying to do. It knows that Ireland has a Government that is keen to address this issue and that health care professionals who are worried about it are talking to the policy makers. The world is looking for a beacon country. Ireland has a population of 4 million so it is a little laboratory. If we can do it properly, other countries can say that the fiscal measures which they thought would work do work. Introducing weighing in schools works. Attacking the adolescent obese child leads to healthier babies in five years. Looking at attacking the adolescent group is a great part of it because one could get a return with healthier babies within five years. One could begin to see that trend.

There is a big conference being held here this week, the EuroPRevent 2012. It runs over four or five days and involves a number of cardiovascular and paediatric groups coming together in Europe to try to prevent cardiovascular disease as their outcome. If one prevents cardiovascular disease, one prevents all the other conditions because if one is good to one's heart, one is good to every other part of the body.

The emphasis on schools is significant. The suggestion that technology should be used to free up time is excellent. I have not heard it stated as clearly previously. It should save time to give the student extra minutes to be active in school. That should certainly be examined. With regard to monitoring in schools, physical activity drops at the weekend. That tells one there is a role for the home in sustaining any changes made in school. One cannot just do it in school-----

Children do not live in schools.

Professor Donal O’Shea

Yes, it must feed into the home. That is why part of the LifeLab might work in taking the approach out of the school and making it seem real.

Professor Carlos Blanco

Regarding the Cork study in which 2,800 babies are being followed up, it is part of an international study on pregnancy and pre-eclampsia. However, Cork and now New Zealand are the only ones analysing what has happened with the product, which is logical. The baby is the summary of the pregnancy. The pregnancy could put that baby in any situation. They are following them for two years, and then five years. There is rich data on pregnancy, weight gain in pregnancy and the pattern of growth from zero to five years. It is known that too much weight gain in pregnancy is associated with obesity and it is known that if one is growing too much in the first two to five years it is associated with obesity later.

They also have rich data on diets and behavioural problems during the five years. They will deliver observational data. There is no intervention as it is observational data. It will help to get some type of markers for the future so one can state, for example, that where there is too much weight gain in pregnancy or too much growth, one must take care. I am a paediatrician and a neonatologist in Holles Street. The problem is that if one tells a mother to put the baby on a diet in the first three months of life, it will be crazy. Breast feeding is protective and is one thing one can do. However, it is very difficult. There is also the issue that when the baby cries a lot the parents will give it food to calm it. That association between behavioural problems and food is very effective. One learns that for all one's life.

One learns everything one will do in the first year or two of one's life - relationships, eating, behaviours and habits. Somebody has put them in one's mind. Of course, there are genetics and ethical signatures. However, that is the predisposition one will have. When one is a teenage girl and one does not wish to sweat, if one does not have that predisposition one probably does not have to use a bicycle. One does not have to sweat because one will not become obese anyway because one has some sort of protection and that can be monitored.

I do not believe the birth will have any influence on obesity. It is a very short process. We are talking about a teenage mother or mother-to-be. The birth is just a change of her status. One is not more fit than one was before that. Of course, it has different implications for different things but not for obesity.

Everything starts very early. We are talking about teenagers but this is starting very early. We can do something by educating people to make them aware that everything starts here, and not to wait until somebody is already overweight. We must deal with the normal children so they can avoid becoming obese. That is the idea.

Smoking and obesity are very different things. The issue with smoking is the third party smoker and third party problems. With obesity there is no creation of third party damage. Somebody can complain in an aeroplane that a person is occupying more space or is occupying their space, but it is a different issue. It is an issue with smoking but not with obesity.

I was not making that comparison.

Professor Carlos Blanco

No, but I was thinking about the insurance and over-charging. I do not think it will happen because it will be difficult. There is a lobby for that.

If one smokes, there is a levy on one's insurance.

Professor Carlos Blanco

I know.

If one is overweight or rapidly gaining weight, one's insurance is not levied.

Professor Donal O’Shea

It is beginning to happen.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Professor Donal O’Shea

That is beginning to happen in every country. I do not think it is a systematic thing.

Professor Niall Moyna

I met a few years ago under this initiative with some of the major health insurance companies in Ireland. It is against European Union law as it is discriminatory to give a reduction in premium based on one's health, which beggars belief.

Professor Carlos Blanco

I will conclude. We were talking about being sedentary and technology. Technology is here and it will not disappear. We cannot go back to the time when children played in the streets so what can one do? That was a good time, but technology is here. We have to use technology in some way. One cannot buy Kinects for everybody, but if they are very cheap and one can play at home by dancing or whatever, it is movement. It is a great deal more movement than just standing up for three minutes. Technology is there to help but it has to be cheaper. We can use it.

A policy has to be implemented and provide the time for research. The Government supported the Growing Up in Ireland study which cost a great deal of money and has given many results. However, whenever it establishes a new policy it will have to repeat that. It will have to be done and that is an investment. I believe it was €23 million. The Government will have to be prepared to do that.

Professor Mark Hanson

I owe Senator Gilroy an apology if I have given the impression that diet, lifestyle and life in utero are the only determinants of poor educational attainment and so forth. Of course, poverty is an enormous driver.

There is therefore no need to blame my mother.

Professor Mark Hanson

What I was saying is that we have evidence that this cycle operates and that this is one of the weak points in the cycle where we can do something. It would be great if we could fix childhood poverty, but obviously that is a big ask. However, we have heard of some potential interventions today that are feasible and affordable which could be instituted. Small things will grow bigger and they can then have an impact.

The other point I would make is in response to Deputy Kelleher's question regarding ethnic and genetic differences. This issue has concerned us greatly in this field over many years. There are ethnic differences in risk of obesity and there are a lot of data from the United Kingdom on members of the population of south Asian extraction. This led to the idea that perhaps there were genes for obesity. I suppose we all hoped the human genome project would allow us to identify what those genes were, in order that we could identify at birth individuals who had a higher risk. While one might or might not then weight their insurance premiums, one would then think about interventions. Sadly, we have not found such genes. While we have found genes that are linked to obesity, they do not account for a major proportion of the risk in the population as a whole. It is a case of "Yes" in respect of susceptible individuals but "No" in the population as a whole. This has led us to think much more carefully about the way in which the genes we inherit from our mothers and fathers interact with our environment during development to lead to later risk of disease. I believe this is where the future of early biomarkers of risk, whether it is the proportions of the baby at birth or more subtle epigenetic changes in the DNA, will allow us to detect people who are at risk and then to perform interventions later on.

As a final point, while I do not know whether I would dare to follow Professor O'Shea's comments about Ireland being a laboratory, it struck a chord. I recommend that members read clause 26 of the political declaration of the United Nations on the prevention of non-communicable diseases arising from its meeting in New York in September 2011. It focuses on early life, pregnancy, the reduction of diabetes in pregnancy and the opportunities so doing afford for the prevention of non-communicable disease. Would it not be great if Ireland could show the way to making that clause a reality?

Professor Niall Moyna

The idea of Deputy Conway's intervention in her home constituency of Waterford is fantastic because most studies in the United States indicate that local interventions work. What works in north Dublin may not work in north Monaghan or north Leitrim because of rural-urban differences. The Deputy is correct that such initiatives should be structured and evaluated. Perhaps three or four models would emerge that could then be implemented throughout the country. This is a wonderful idea.

I have an issue with our current health care model, which is disease-based, not health-based. Moreover, to think about a health-based model versus a disease-based model would constitute a seismic shift in thinking as they are very different. As an example of physical activity and how much one must do, exercise and activity are very important in preventing obesity but to lose weight, one really must reduce consumption. However, a person who was obese and who lost weight must exercise for approximately 90 minutes per day to maintain that weight loss. Consequently, once a person becomes obese, the dice are stacked against him or her. Even if one loses the weight, one must still do more exercise than someone who was not obese in the first place.

There have been a number of European-based studies. For example, the HELENA study took a group of kids across Europe and assessed them across a number of fitness levels. In fact, I compared our children to the European averages on "The John Murray Show" on RTE radio. Members will be amazed to learn that the end of the six-week period, our girls ranked in the top 10% of Europeans for aerobic fitness and the boys in the top 20%. However, as a cautionary note, I believe the European averages have decreased dramatically in the past 20 years. As an example of the benchmark, during the shuttle run tests we carried out in the schools, the average boy completed around 62, while the highest score for a boy was 150. The average girl completed approximately 46, while 11 girls ran above 125. These girls were in first year and I believe there should be no difference between a boy and a girl in first year. Consequently, we should be setting the target up there. One suggestion I have made is that were one to meet these really high targets at the end of one's first year, one should be awarded five points towards one's overall leaving certificate points score. If one meets it in second year and third year, one should be awarded ten points and 15 points, respectively, and so on. Consequently, one could accumulate 100 points over a four-year period, which would induce children to understand the importance of lifestyle and of adopting behaviours. I reiterate the hardest thing to do is to change one's behaviour, so adopting such healthy behaviours is the approach to take.

As for the issue of genetics, I repeat there is no magic bullet as a single gene may result in 0.0001% of the world's population being obese. Probably 20 genes have now been identified that increase one's risk of becoming obese. However, even if one has those genes, being physically active suppresses the gene, which is very important. While one may have a genetic predisposition, a good example of the gene not being suppressed is that of the Pima Indians in Arizona. They had virtually no diabetes or obesity but in the mid-1970s, a large number of Pima Indians migrated to Arizona where they lived in an obesogenic environment with cheap alcohol. At present, 75% of Pima Indians, men and women, who live in Arizona have diabetes. In other words, this group had the genetic predisposition and were placed in an obesogenic environment. Consequently, exercise, activity and lifestyle can help in the suppression of genes.

My pet peeve concerns physical education, PE. Each time I hear a discussion on health and children, I hear how people think PE will solve it. Were I to tell members that the curriculum was to be changed whereby each child in Ireland was to be taught two hours of mathematics per week and they had an option of dropping out after third year, how do they imagine such pupils would perform in the leaving certificate mathematics examinations? I do not believe they would do very well. My primary degree is in physical education but in my opinion, it has failed us. We need a completely different model and I advocate that it be combined with the biology curriculum.

How has PE failed us?

Professor Niall Moyna

Look at our children.

Is this a failure of PE itself?

Professor Niall Moyna

Yes.

Does Professor Moyna think so?

Professor Niall Moyna

Undoubtedly. It must be completely changed. It is highly pedagogically based on teaching but it should be about health. Health should underpin the subject. I teach physiology and children who come to my class with an A1 in higher level biology fail to discern the relationship between smoking, alcohol, inactivity and any of the chronic diseases. We should have a really hard look at changing our biology curriculum. I would change the name of physical education because young girls of 14 with no interest in team sport think the subject is about elite sport.

That is a fair point.

Professor Niall Moyna

I would like to change its title and call it health and wellness. Sport and activity only constitutes one part of health and wellness and a much more holistic approach must be taken in this regard. Moreover, people are part of a community and a family and school cannot solve all of our problems. In fact, it is one place at present where one is guaranteed to be sedentary because one is sitting on one's backside all day. While I acknowledge it is a much wider issue, a really hard look should be taken at our current physical education programme in schools. The fact it is not an examinable subject on the leaving certificate curriculum tells one all one needs to know. Why should someone take it seriously if one can get 100 points for doing something else and zero points for doing this? I certainly would not be overly excited about it.

Should it simply be about attaining points?

Professor Niall Moyna

No, not at all. My initial idea was to give kids a monetary award but I now believe points could achieve the same result. One must motivate them and unfortunately, there is enormous parental pressure on children to attain such high points. Consequently, this is a bigger issue and when people mention PE in schools, I do not believe it will solve the health care problems of Ireland or its children.

Everything the witnesses have said has been very thought-provoking. Common sense, self-control and moderation play a huge part in respect of the choices one makes. On the street on which I grew up many years ago, most mammies were at home and they made dinner on one's return. Unfortunately, parenting is a lot different today and many parents are out working. They return home stressed out and it is quite difficult to decide what one will have for dinner at 5:45 p.m. when the kids have been home since 4 p.m. The point I am making is that social environment has a great deal to do with the high levels of obesity among young children today. I think the family environment and how well people are educated has much to do with it. I had noted to myself that school cannot be the be-all and end-all and parents must take responsibility. I would never send my 19-year-old daughter, who of five children is my baby, to the supermarket at the weekend because I know what would go into the trolley. She is probably the fittest in the house because she attends dancing classes four nights a week. There is a responsibility on parents to monitor what they put in the supermarket trolley. My granddaughter recently discovered the press where we keep crisps. We no longer buy crisps because of the need to reduce her intake of them. After two days she stopped looking in the press for them.

Have studies been undertaken of private schools, which as compared to schools in working class areas, appear to set aside more time for physical education? Have studies been undertaken of whether children attending private schools engage in more physical education? When my children were at school there was no PE class. Exercise time involved the teacher taking them out to the yard or to the gym for, say, ten minutes. Perhaps the witnesses will tell us if any such studies have been carried out.

Who refers children or adults to this service? Are they referred by GPs? Also do schools or local district nurses have a role to play in this area? I thank the witnesses for attending.

I call Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick, who is the committee's rapporteur on obesity.

Professor Moyna is a famous name, in the context of his care of players in Louth GAA, for which I thank him.

We will not mention Meath.

It is great that our schools and colleges are to get involved in addressing childhood obesity. Because I am involved in sport many parents believe I have a mechanism to help them with their children's obesity problem, which for them is a timebomb waiting to explode. I acknowledge the witnesses' comments around the mental health issues which often evolve at a later stage in life as a result of obesity. It is important parents know what food their children should be eating and what amount of exercise they should be getting. Perhaps the witnesses will give three examples of the type of nourishment which parents should provide to their children each day to ensure they are getting proper nutrition. Also, what type of exercise should parents be encouraging children to do? I believe good habits are formed at home.

There is a vote in the Dáil.

I was shocked by Professor Moyna's statement that for a person to lose one pound of fat he or she must burn off 3,500 calories. I run 5 km most days, which burns off a maximum of 350 calories. Can he advise of any shortcuts in this regard? It is important we also include fun activities. No one wants their child to be obese. We need to keep things as plain and simple as we can. As a parent, I would welcome any tips the witnesses may have in this regard.

We will suspend the meeting now until after the vote.

Sitting suspended at 1.45 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

I am aware that our witnesses have been here since early morning, so it is important we draw the meeting to a close. I understand Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick was in possession, so he might conclude his comments.

I would like to make one comment before we conclude in terms of pricing. Professor O'Shea spoke about the fiscal measure and in his presentation, he spoke about the majority and the edges. Given that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, is potentially looking at regulating the number of fast food outlets in the context of planning permissions and that the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, has spoken about bringing in a sugar tax and so on, is there a fear we are becoming a nanny State and are taxing the majority for the minority since we are bringing in water metering and household charges? I fully subscribe to the view that we need to change attitudes and culture in regard to obesity, intake and so on. Are we heading down the road of becoming a nanny State? Professor O'Shea might address Deputy Byrne's and Deputy Fitzpatrick's points if he can.

Professor Donal O’Shea

Parental responsibility is huge and must be part of the solution. It probably takes five to seven years for policy to effect change. It takes a long time. Parent power in terms of not buying the crisps has an effect in two days. We need individual responsibility.

I was in a soccer club in Sligo which banned energy drinks a couple of months ago. A couple of months later, the nearby GAA club banned energy drinks for its under 16s, so they only drink water. If they turn up with an energy drink, they must throw it out and fill up their bottles with water. They are told not to come back with an energy drink the next week. That has an immediate effect. It is not a nanny State. The Minister could not do that, nor could any policy maker. That is parent power and people power meeting policy influence coming down from above. One needs both.

In terms of studies in private schools - Professor Niall Moyna may know a bit about this - I know the Growing Up in Ireland study shows the difference already. Some 25% of children aged three are overweight or obese but that is 29% or 30% if one's parents do not have the leaving certificate or a university degree. It is 14% or 15% if one comes from an educated background. Even at the age of three, the class separation is there, which is very bad.

In terms of who refers to us, we get referrals from everybody, from GPs to hospital specialists. Parents, in general, do not recognise their child is overweight or obese. A parent is most unlikely to be the one to bring the child to the GP. The GP or monitoring in school will pick it up. Parents do not recognise it. Mothers are a little bit better than fathers but both are poor at recognising it.

In terms of the time bomb comment which has been in the literature for some time, it is not a time bomb in that it has exploded. I am working at the bomb site. That is why I talk to Professor Blanco in paediatrics because that is where the bombs are being manufactured. We are at the bomb site where they have gone off. It is terrible.

Our adult population is being referred to us younger and bigger than when I started ten years ago. Our mean age was in the 40s but the mean body mass index was 44. We are now seeing a body mass index of 51 as our average week on week. We see the explosion members see on the graph in our clinic.

In regard to tips, the most important and in first position - it has been in every study ever done on how to be a healthy weight and how to maintain - is never to miss breakfast. That is amazing. I cannot understand how it is in there all the time, although we are beginning to understand why it is because it reflects a lot of things like regular eating and what was mentioned about breakfast cereals being available. It is about having cereal and a piece of fruit or something.

A parent should weigh himself or herself once a week and his or her child once or twice a year. One needs to know one is roughly on track with a child. One needs to know the height of the child but roughly from the age of four to 14, a child should be half his or her age in stone. A 14 year old should be approximately seven stone.

It is about being active for an hour a day and watching the calories, in particular the liquid calories because we are drinking more. Fruit is often in smoothie form. A smoothie should be one of one's five a day and not five of one's five a day. The physical activity is about being up and about and walking. It is not about getting to the gym. For the vast majority, it is really about time spent walking. Children cannot stop themselves running if they are out for a walk.

Professor Carlos Blanco

They say eating an apple a day keeps the doctor away. It is an educational thing. The parent must decide what to buy in the supermarket. It is about health literacy. Parents have to be aware. There are a lot of problems at this time. With the economic recession, people are very stressed and they probably eat more and drink more. It is very difficult to say to people not to drink more because they will say they may be back in 20 years' time but they want to be happy until then. It is very difficult to manage that behaviour. It is about education and telling people about the consequences. They must absorb that some way or another. That would be my message.

In regard to the LifeLab experience, we are using our lab at the National Children's Research Centre. We are working on a small scale with local schools in Crumlin. We could absorb a lot more. It will develop and we will work with larger numbers. We are working to establish a programme.

Professor Mark Hanson

As someone who skipped breakfast to get an early flight to join the committee today, I had better be careful about what tips I give. What we have heard about exercise is clear. On the dietary side, our research has shown that it comes down to a prudent diet, one that is high in vegetables, brown bread and fruit and low in sugar, crisps and red meat. We have heard from Professor O'Shea about the links with social classes. Deputy Byrne asked about private schools. It is clear that parents' levels of educational and, to a degree, social attainment pass risk on to children through factors like diet and exercise. For example, our data show that, of women who attained a university degree, only 5% ate an unbalanced or imprudent diet whereas the level among women who left school with no formal qualifications was higher than 55%. Education has a significant effect.

The Deputy also asked about parenting. I am concerned that many parents do not have access to health food because they live in high rises where there are only corner shops, they do not have the cash to buy it or they do not have the time or knowledge to prepare it, let alone help their children to exercise or to go to the gym. An educational intervention in a broader social setting would enable people to feel that they could take control of the situation and do something about it. This is not rocket science, yet it is surprisingly difficult to have an effect if we view this as a medical problem rather than a social issue in which everyone should be involved.

Professor Niall Moyna

Any form of activity is better than none. If a person who approaches me for advice is doing nothing, I tell him or her that five minutes per day is 35 minutes per week, which is better than no minutes per week. I try to get people to do however much fits into their lives, be it ten minutes or something else. If the person is a child, I choose something that he or she enjoys. There is a greater likelihood that people will continue their activities if they do them with others.

Will Professor O'Shea address the fiscal measures and the question of the majority versus minority? I have a small concern in that regard. Professor O'Shea stated that fiscal measures and pricing policies worked. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, is considering the prohibition of fast food outlets near schools. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, has discussed a sugar tax or fat tax.

Professor Donal O’Shea

Nanny state.

On the basis of Professor O'Shea's remarks concerning how pricing was working, are we heading towards a nanny state? The offenders to whom our guests referred are on the edges, yet we would be penalising the majority.

Professor Donal O’Shea

Refusing planning permission for fast food outlets near schools is a single issue that might make a slight difference and is difficult to quantify. The sugary sweet and drink tax that the Minister, Deputy Reilly, is considering will be labelled as a nanny state initiative. Policy makers will need to grasp the nettle, point out to people what is already the case - 25% of three year olds and nine year olds have low self-esteem and image concepts - and ask whether they are happy for that situation to continue or should we take action to generate income that must be invested in health prevention and not go to Germany or wherever. If one recommendation should be made, it is that if measures are introduced to generate revenue to influence behaviour, that revenue should be ploughed into preventing the problem at the level of cycle lanes, infrastructure and school physical activity.

With the money ring-fenced.

Professor Donal O’Shea

Or at least a significant amount of it. The nanny state argument would then become a caring state argument. One would need to convince people that the free consumerism economy of the past 30 years has led to a group of abused profiled kids and a health care and social burden that is unmanageable and that we should try to turn the tide through this key initiative. The example of the football club in Sligo is not a nanny state initiative. Rather, it is about being caring. Everyone agrees it is brave and good, which has a ripple effect. This is how we much go about the issue.

Prior to the meeting, we discussed the key messages that we wanted the committee to take from our comments. I have not heard about clause 26, but Ireland has been through a tough time and is on its knees. An island and population of Ireland's size has the capacity to emerge swiftly as the beacon country that everyone would need to beat properly and quickly. As an opening paragraph for this report, clause 26 asks whether it can be done and whether non-communicable illness can be bottomed out. Some 80% of type 2 diabetes cases can be prevented if people do not put on weight. We are knowingly growing this.

The key areas are education, education and education. Health literacy must be embedded in the individual's psyche, as both it and individual responsibility are important, and in the social fabric of our society. Health literacy must not just be about diet, which everyone concentrates on, but also about levels of physical activity, smoking and alcohol. We need to stop considering each of these killers one at a time, for example, a quit smoking or alcohol awareness campaign. They need to be bundled into one another so that we can have a group of 18 year olds who are physically active, do not smoke, do not like being out of their heads one night out of every two weeks and appreciate and enjoy being healthy. When people change their lives, lose weight and get healthy, they love it.

Future monitoring should not focus on how bad the situation is, but on the level of improvement. Are we making a difference and are healthier babies being born in the five-year period?

Although I have not mentioned it, there should be equitable access to treatment for obese adults and children. This is a deficient area currently and needs to be addressed. It is my area, but 90% of the argument is concerned with the prevention, prevention and prevention of childhood obesity. We cannot have a cancer strategy that does not involve treatment. We need to treat people for obesity, but much of the problem can be prevented through the measures we have outlined this morning. That must be the route taken.

Professor Carlos Blanco

People might believe that a large budget would be necessary for this recommendation. As Professor Hanson stated, the infrastructure and curriculum, be it biology or whatever, exist. As Professor Moyna stated, we must re-orient a little and make a link with the reality of one's life. We must put it together instead of just teaching a closed knowledge. It would not cost money, only a change of mind. It would be cheap. I do not know how expensive the activity programme would be, but it would probably be the same.

Professor Donal O’Shea

At one level it is complex but, at another, it is really simple.

It is about changing attitudes and behaviours. I thank Professors O'Shea, Blanco, Moyna and, in particular, Hanson, who made the effort to come to this meeting from Southampton, for giving us plenty on which to reflect. This is one of our priority topics. We previously dealt with the issue of alcohol and we will forward a copy of our report to the witnesses if they have not already received one. Deputy Fitzpatrick is preparing a report based on our hearings. The witnesses are the second group to appear before us and we have yet to meet representatives of the industry and the interdepartmental working group.

I thank the witnesses not only for meeting us, but also for the work they do in this area in terms of trying to education people through the media and their contribution as professionals. They have helped to change minds on this issue. This meeting has been very beneficial for the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 1 May 2012.
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