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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 18 Oct 2022

Implementing Housing for All: Discussion (Resumed)

Today's meeting is with Cork City Council and Galway City Council in a continuation of a series of meetings we are having with local authorities to discuss Housing for All, the historical provision of housing through some local authorities and the projections for the coming years. From Cork City Council we are joined in the room by Ms Ann Doherty and Mr. Brian Geaney, and online we are joined by Mr. Fearghal Reidy and Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin. They are very welcome to the committee. From Galway City Council we are joined in the room by Mr. Brendan McGrath, Ms Patricia Philbin and Mr. Brian Barrett, and online by Mr. Dermot Mahon. I thank both councils for their opening statements, which were submitted to us in advance, have been circulated to members and will be published to the website after the meeting.

I will read a brief note on privilege before we commence. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Those who are attending online have limited privilege. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will begin with Cork City Council and then ask Galway City Council to make its opening statement. The format we follow is a seven-minute segment for each member. The seven minutes consists of time to ask questions and receive answers. If members want to direct a particular question to a particular local authority, that would be helpful. I ask them to keep their questions short in order to allow ample time for witnesses to answer. We have several substitutions.

I invite Ms Doherty to make her opening statement on behalf of Cork County Council.

Ms Ann Doherty

I thank the committee for inviting us to report on housing delivery in Cork city. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Geaney, assistant chief executive, Mr. Ó Donnabháin, director of services with responsibility for housing, and Mr. Reidy, director of services with responsibility for strategic and economic development.

As regards social housing delivery and targets, in the three-year period from 2019-21, a total of 3,698 social housing supports were delivered in Cork City Council’s administrative area. Of these, 847 units were provided using the build delivery mechanism, 294 homes were acquired, 218 homes were leased and 2,339 tenancies were created and supported through the housing assistance payment, HAP, and the rental accommodation scheme, RAS.

In terms of future delivery of social housing, under our housing delivery action plan there is a pipeline to provide 2,399 homes by 2026. This is made up of 2,134 homes to be delivered by build, including Part V, and 265 homes by lease. In 2022, a total of 691 homes will be delivered, which will be achieved through a combination of 515 homes by build, 122 homes by leasing, and 54 homes by acquisitions. Right now, there are 49 projects under construction which will deliver over 957 homes when completed. A further six projects that will yield 154 homes are due to commence on site before the end of 2022. The strong pipeline delivery is reached by activating city council-owned sites, the competitive dialogue procurement process, partnership with the approved housing body, AHB, sector, turnkey scheme acquisitions and Part V, with further housing development under way with the Land Development Agency.

As regards right-sizing schemes, in the past three years, Cork City Council built 41 right-sizing homes for older people. Construction of an additional 89 homes will be completed by the end of the year. These schemes are spread across five sites, all of which were either derelict or vacant.

On affordable delivery and targets, under the housing delivery action plan Cork City Council has a target to deliver 1,737 affordable homes of which 378 homes will be provided by the city council. The balance of 1,359 homes will be developed by the AHB sector and the Land Development Agency.

Cork City Council currently has four affordable housing schemes under construction that will deliver 215 homes. Of this, 135 affordable homes will be completed in 2022 and the remaining 80 homes will be completed in 2023. The AHB sector is delivering an additional 105 cost-rental homes across two schemes in 2022. Other schemes are at planning and pre-planning stages.

The delivery of both, via affordable housing, have been affected by well documented externalities. They are the Covid-19 pandemic, cost inflation, supply chain challenges and general market uncertainty. Part V housing is also reliant on the private sector delivery. That stated, Cork City Council remains strongly committed to continuing to deliver a strong programme to achieve our housing targets.

Vacancy and dereliction are key issues that relate to the fabric of the city. There is significant public discourse and, indeed, frustration regarding vacancy and dereliction. I will highlight some key facts in so far as these issues relate to Cork city.

As the members of this committee are aware, not all vacant houses are derelict. This is important because the instruments to address dereliction are not the same as those available to address vacancy. The city council's vacant homes and derelict sites team is working on a portfolio of just over 460 properties, which includes both vacant homes and derelict sites.

As members will know, the definition of dereliction is set out in the Derelict Sites Act. A key consideration of Cork City Council, in the first instance, is whether the property is safe and habitable. Where possible we also seek to determine the specific circumstances of the owners of each property. This is important as property owners may be facing difficult circumstances which led to the unsightly presentation or dereliction of their property. The city council engages with property owners who are actively seeking to remove dereliction through the planning process or by disposal of the site. If this engagement does not yield satisfactory results then we will move to place the property on the derelict sites register although, as one would expect, this is a long process.

Today, there are 110 sites on the derelict sites register, which is the highest number since the register was established. Measures to support regeneration and remove dereliction include repair and lease; buy and renew; and the living city. In addition, Cork City Council provides grants to support the development of premises in architectural conservation areas. In the last five years the total amount is €1.23 million and, as of January 2022, there was €4.1 million due from the derelict sites levy.

Cork City Council compulsorily acquired 22 sites under derelict sites legislation. It acquires a derelict site in the knowledge that not all sites are suitable for social housing and alternative solutions may be required to remove dereliction. That stated, over the last five years a total of 619 social and affordable housing homes were delivered or are under construction by the city council on vacant, derelict and regeneration sites. A further 206 homes are in the pipeline at these sites. This equates to a total of 825 homes that are spread over 50 such sites. This points to the relative complexity of bringing regeneration to these difficult sites. It also highlights the impact that the development of these sites will have across the city in terms of providing homes and regenerating neighbourhoods.

I shall now focus on vacant properties. According to the Revenue Commissioners at the end of June 2022 as much as 2.6% of properties in Cork City are vacant, of which in the order of 50% are vacant for fewer than 12 months. This information correlates with a survey of vacant homes that was conducted by Cork City Council in 2018. The reasons for vacancy vary. The new vacant house tax will add to the instruments that are available to address vacancies.

The work on vacant homes and derelict sites is led by a vacant homes officer who, in turn, is supported by a dedicated team. There is a cross-directorate working group that is made up of planning, property, law, housing and finance who work on derelict sites in the city. This team considers the suitability of sites for acquisition or disposal and the use of derelict sites for housing or regeneration purposes, along with other instruments that could address dereliction and vacancy.

To conclude, while we face a range of challenges there is considerable work under way by Cork City Council and our partners to achieve the targets of our housing action plan to deliver a total of 4,136 social and affordable homes in Cork city by 2026.

I invite Mr. McGrath to make his opening statement on behalf of Galway City Council.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend. I am joined by some colleagues. On my left is Ms Patricia Philbin who has recently moved from the housing function to a recent directorate that we have established to focus on capital delivery. On my right is Mr. Brian Barrett who manages the housing function in addition to community and economic functions. I am joined online by my colleague, Mr. Dermot Mahon, who is the head of unit within the housing unit.

The objective of Galway City Council in implementing the Housing for All policy is to accelerate the delivery of good quality social and affordable housing in an equitable manner, and in appropriate locations, in order to develop sustainable and balanced communities. The table set out in my statement covers the period 2020 to 2022 and shows a total 1,765 housing interventions have been successfully delivered across the board; 500 of them in the build Part V and turnkey arena; there have been 127 acquisitions, leasing or capital assistance scheme, CAS, delivery; and 1,138 rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and housing assistance payment, HAP, delivery.

There have been significant challenges in the past years which have disrupted delivery. The construction sector continues to experience these issues. That is reflected in material price increases, supply chain delays and disruption, and an increasing demand for skilled workers. These elements all have the potential to impact on our delivery. However, we remain committed to our targets and we are working with the Department, and all stakeholders, to ensure the optimum delivery of housing units.

As part of Galway City Council's commitment to Housing for All our housing delivery action plan provides for the delivery of 1,435 social homes, which is about 16% greater than the target that was set for us of 1,235. Our plan also provides 1,005 affordable and cost-rental units that will be delivered in the same period.

The second tabular statement sets out the total estimated delivery covering the period 2022 to 2026 and states an estimated 165 will be delivered through Part V in conjunction with LDA; 403 will be delivered by the local authority and existing landbanks; land that we are currently acquiring will deliver approximately 100; 163 will be delivered through turnkey interventions; 36 by local authority buy and renew; 541 under the approved housing bodies under capital advance leasing facility, CALF; 27 AHBs under CAS; and the total is 1,435. As the members will understand, the involvement of the private sector is an integral part of our delivery, particularly in the context of Part V and turnkey schemes.

The most recent housing needs demand assessment for the city has categorised 20.4% of households as “affordability constrained”. We will work closely, and are working closely, with the AHB and the Land Development Agency in the delivery of affordable and cost-rental units.

In preparation for post the lifecycle of our current housing delivery action plan, we continue to take steps to increase our landbanks to ensure adequate land provision for further delivery action plans.

The provision of age-friendly and universal design homes will also form a significant element of planned delivery in line with the city council's housing action plan for persons with a disability and age-friendly housing objectives. Of the units outlined in the table in our statement, 20% will be universal design homes and a further 15% will be age-friendly homes.

The city council continues to examine vacant sites and derelict sites as a further measure to support housing delivery. While there are limited vacant homes in the city given the high demand in the rental market, the city council has recently acquired three properties under the buy and renew scheme. In an effort to activate other initiatives in the city, the city council recently held a public event to promote the living city, and repair and lease schemes. We currently have six vacant sites on the register and a further ten derelict sites.

Quite a few large derelict sites have been removed from the register in recent times as they were rendered non-derelict and ceased to qualify to continue to be on the register. Recently four derelict sites have been compulsorily provided by the council. The purchase of two of these sites and an adjoining land bank have yielded a 15-unit development under construction on the combined sites. Since 2019, we have collected just over €413,000 in levies under the Derelict Sites Act. All bar €23,000 of what is due has been collected and the balance is being pursued.

The city council is committed to retrofitting existing properties that are returned to it on an annual basis to ensure that when these tenancies are created, sustainable properties are provided to new tenants in existing stock. Bringing our stock up to an energy rating of B2 is resource demanding but an essential task to ensure that we meet climate strategy targets. The average costs for this work are approximately €35,000 per unit.

This is an overview of our ambitions for the coming years. We are expanding and recruiting our delivery team to meet this ambition.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, their statements and for all of the work they and everyone in the local authorities in Galway and Cork city do. I will begin with Galway and I want to focus on the affordability issue. The housing crisis has two main characteristics, which are supply and affordability. I am told that affordability in Galway is even worse than in Dublin recently. House price inflation has exceeded Dublin and has been well into the double digits in recent years. When was the last time the local authority in Galway city delivered an affordable home? What was the most recent affordable housing scheme? I have been told anecdotally it was 2009. Is this the case?

Over what period will the 1,005 affordable and cost-rental units be delivered? Is it up to 2026? What will make up the 1,005? I hear from my colleagues, Councillor Michael Crowe and Senator Ollie Crowe, that there is real pent-up demand for affordable housing in Galway city and there is great anxiety about seeing some delivery. Will the witnesses share with the committee how the 1,005 homes will be delivered and within what timeframe?

Ms Patricia Philbin

The most recent affordable homes scheme was in approximately 2009. Some of these were Part V units we got back. The 1,005 homes will include 477 to be built on our own lands. We hope to get 204 through turnkey developments and 324 through AHBs and cost-rental units. We expect the cost-rental units to be delivered between 2023 and 2025.

That is great. The timescale is until 2026. What is the timescale for the 477 on the council's own land?

Ms Patricia Philbin

It is similar. At present we have a scheme of 85 approved under Part 8. We are progressing it and we hope to go to tender in the coming months. Depending on the tender we will have a better idea of when they will be delivered. We hope to deliver all the affordable homes within the timeframe of the housing delivery action.

They will all be delivered on local authority lands.

Ms Patricia Philbin

The 477 will be.

It may not be possible to give the exact price but can we have an idea of what the target affordable price will be for these homes?

Ms Patricia Philbin

I cannot provide one at present because it is a very different scheme from what the other scheme was. We sold the other scheme for the cost of what we built. For these schemes a formula has to be applied with regard to people's income and how the units will be costed based on the demand for them. With construction prices it would be impossible to say at this point. We are at pre-tender on a scheme. Once we get the tenders we will have a better idea of what prices we will face in terms of construction costs.

With regard to the affordable cost rental, will Galway City Council be able to achieve the target of a minimum of 25% below market price?

Ms Patricia Philbin

This is the ambition. As the Senator said, the market in Galway is quite inflated. It will be a bit of a challenge. Perhaps towards the end of the plan delivering the cost-rental units might be more cost effective. We will have to assess it as we go along.

I want to ask about housing for older people and age-friendly homes. What is the distinction between universal design and age-friendly homes?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Universal design can be used for the elderly and for people with disabilities. They are designed in such a way that they can be easily adapted if needs be.

What about age-friendly homes?

Ms Patricia Philbin

With universal design, we can match them to being age friendly. We intend to provide 216 age-friendly units in the lifetime of the plan. This is 15%. At present we have 15 on-site and a further 63 are being developed with an AHB. These should be delivered in 2024 or 2025.

Does the council deliver age-friendly home as unique senior citizen developments? Dublin City Council operates a financial contribution scheme for senior citizens who own their own homes and no longer want to stay in them. They can sell them back to the council and in return for making a financial contribution they are provided with fit-for-purpose senior citizens' housing. They also get a cash lump sum. Does Galway City Council operate a financial contribution scheme? If not, why not?

Ms Patricia Philbin

My colleagues will be able to answer this. I lost the first part of the question. I apologise.

The first part of the question was on whether age-friendly homes are delivered as unique senior citizens' developments or whether they are homes dedicated to senior citizens within mixed complexes.

Ms Patricia Philbin

The two we are developing at present are specifically for senior citizens. A number of our own developments are specific for senior citizens. We also provide units in other developments, with regard to community cohesion and sustainable communities.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

We do provide a financial contribution scheme. We amended our scheme of letting priorities a number of years ago to allow for it. It is not specifically for senior citizens. It can apply to other persons if the property is derelict or rundown and they need additional supports. We can provide an option whereby the property can be acquired directly by the local authority at 50% of the market value or the owner can dispose of the property privately and provide us with 50% of the proceeds. In return we will provide an age-friendly home if it is relevant. It usually comes with home care supports or HSE supports. The answer is that we do.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. Cork City Council is seen by the Minister as one of the best local authorities for delivering affordable or social housing. He said it and I have seen great work being done. My issue is that the Government's housing targets are not ambitious enough. I was a councillor for 11 years. As far as I am aware, Cork City Council has hit every Government target. Last October, there were 7,697 people and families on Cork City Council's housing list or on HAP or RAS. In August, the figure had risen to 7,875. This was an increase of 178 people or families. Cork City Council has done its job. It has delivered on every target. This is the proof of what we are saying, which is that the Government targets are not ambitious enough.

Mr. Brian Geaney

I thank the Deputy. He has acknowledged the significant work under way in the city council.

The targets are a minimum. They are also ambitious. We are going to build 515 units this year. Next year, our target is 821 units. With the projects we have on-site and in play now, and with the number of projects to go on-site, we are extremely confident we are going to achieve these targets. Whether it is affordable or social housing, though, where opportunities arise, and the committee will be well aware of the competitive dialogue process, in respect of 26 Part 8 projects across various brownfield sites in the city, we are active in the market. Our intention is to exceed these targets where we can in future.

I acknowledge that. The figures show this. My issue is that I think Cork City Council should be given more money, resources and staff. If the council can hit every target, then why not double them? These figures show that the housing crisis is getting worse in Cork. This is what they show. The Minister needs to back Cork City Council more.

We saw extreme weather conditions at the weekend with the rain and over the summer with the heat. We are now facing into a winter where we are going to probably see cold and snow. Is a contingency plan in place? I was told a story last Sunday evening regarding a man who wanted to present for homelessness and, instead, he was out the whole day in torrential rain. As was said, this was probably the highest rainfall in Cork city for nearly 60 years, but homeless people did not have access to shelter on Sunday afternoon. Several people died on the streets of Cork city a few years ago. Is there a contingency plan in place now to deal with extreme weather conditions to ensure there will always be somewhere for homeless people to go?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes. The contingency plan, the cold weather strategy, has been in place since October. There is no reason somebody would have been left out in the cold or rain, as the Deputy outlined. Arrangements were put in place by the Cork Simon Community over the weekend to deal with the severe weather event that hit the city. There was, therefore, no reason for somebody to be out in the rain or the cold as was outlined. There was absolutely no reason.

Is this a situation where what happens policy-wise, or what is stated, is not what happens on the ground? Deputy Ó Laoghaire and I recently met with representatives of Cork Simon Community. The organisation is doing great work. The issue, though, is that there seems to be a disconnect. Can we be assured this policy is in place for the winter?

Mr. Brian Geaney

This policy is in place. I do not know the case the Deputy outlined. At times, Cork Simon Community staff can witness behavioural issues with potential applicants to enter the services. As I said, however, there is no reason what was described would have happened yesterday.

I thank Mr. Geaney. The Minister was on RTÉ last night and he stated that it was possible to buy an affordable house in Fingal for €166,000. The cheapest house it is possible to buy in Cork city is on the Boherboy Road for €242,000. I think they are gone now. Can someone explain to me why a house in Cork is €76,000 dearer than one in Dublin? From what I can see, affordable houses in Cork are not affordable.

Mr. Brian Geaney

The Deputy will be aware that four schemes are under construction. These will be completed this year. The Deputy is correct to say that in the scheme at Boherboy Road a two-bedroom house costs €217,500, while a three-bedroom house costs €243,000. It is fair to say, however, that every site is different. Some sites are more complex than others. The Boherboy Road scheme will be cheaper than the other schemes under construction because the land was owned by Cork City Council, whereas the council had to acquire the land for the other three schemes under construction.

I appreciate that. My issue is that people in Cork are paying more for their homes. The council is delivering affordable housing. Good work is going on there and I recognise it. Why is the Government not supporting Cork City Council to deliver truly affordable homes? If a two-bedroom home on the Boherboy Road costs €217,500, this is still €51,000 extra. To let people know, the average three-bedroom house in Dublin is €80,000 to €100,000 more expensive than in Cork city. In this context, how can Cork city have these affordable homes? Is the Minister not giving the council the resources? We all know that after the last financial crash, local authorities, like those in Cork, were left with massive debts due to land. Is the Government now forcing Cork City Council to force people to pay these debts back, instead of the Government stepping in?

Mr. Brian Geaney

There is an affordable housing scheme. The council is determined to implement it. The Deputy will be aware that in 2020 the council borrowed €40 million, or put a borrowing facility in place for that amount. This was to get schemes up and running in Cork.

I am sorry to interrupt, but my time is up. I know what Mr. Geaney is saying, but these houses are not affordable. I will put one last question to Mr. Geaney, on which he can provide me with an answer later. What is the maximum price for an affordable three-bedroom property in Togher and Blarney? This figure is not on the website yet. I thank Mr. Geaney.

Mr. Geaney can respond to this question, if he wishes.

Mr. Brian Geaney

We are getting significant help through the affordable housing fund to bring these schemes forward and offer these houses to the market. The schemes we have advertised are oversubscribed. The price of a three-bedroom house in Togher is €280,000.

I thank Mr. Geaney. I call Senator Cummins.

I thank our witnesses for being here to help us with our work regarding the implementation of Housing for All. Starting with Galway, I would like some clarity concerning the figures provided. The first page of the opening statement refers to, if I combine the build figure with the acquisition one, 174 and 15, a total of 189. Turning to the second page of that statement, and looking at delivery for 2022, the figure referred to is 265 homes to be delivered. Turning then to the housing delivery action plan, on the third page there is a reference to 305 houses to be delivered in 2022. Meanwhile, the fifth page of that same plan cites 265 units to be delivered in 2022. Which is the figure that represents what will be delivered in 2022?

Ms Patricia Philbin

I can answer this question. Regarding the housing delivery action plans, these were completed in December 2021. Our targets have changed since. We do not expect to meet our target this year. We expect we will deliver 154 to 158 units. We have had one scheme delayed and several of the AHB units we had expected have fallen through as well.

The total is 154 to 158 units.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes. That is the total at the moment.

That is fewer units than were even referred to in the opening statement provided to the committee.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes, it is. We are examining acquisitions between now and the end of the year to see if we can secure additional units. We have had 36 expressions of interest from vendors regarding possible properties.

Will Ms Philbin please elaborate on what is at work here regarding this drop-off in the target? Can the factors behind this be explained? I understand they will be multifaceted across the board, but is there one particular factor across several schemes that has impacted the most?

Ms Patricia Philbin

There is not one in particular.

Ms Patricia Philbin

It is unfortunate that we have had a delay with one of our own sites. We had also thought we would be able to accelerate one of our turnkey projects, but that has run into delays while waiting for fire doors. Another AHB that we thought would provide 50 units this year will not be able to fulfil that number.

Is the delivery of those now expected in quarter 1 of 2023?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes.

I thank Ms Philbin. Turning to the issues of vacancy and dereliction, these questions are for the representatives of both councils. Starting with Cork, how many repair and lease units have been delivered in the last four years?

Mr. Brian Geaney

I think it is approximately nine or ten units. It has not proven to be very successful in the Cork market. The reasons include the fact that the rental market is buoyant there now. The level of subvention available, €60,000 including VAT, is not deemed to be enough to get some properties up and running. We have found-----

It is per unit as opposed to per house.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes, it is.

If three units are being delivered within the same property, then that is €180,000.

The council's figure is actually five and it had 34 inquiries. Why were there 34 applications but only a follow-through of five units delivered across two developments?

Mr. Brian Geaney

The overall figure is what we will do this year up to the end of 2022.

Mr. Brian Geaney

On the projects that were being looked at, we have now partnered with the Peter McVerry Trust. As for the issues when we went back to the property owners themselves, the longevity of the lease was a particular issue. People were slow to commit to a longer term lease. They might have been prepared to commit to a shorter term lease.

I would have thought the longer term lease was an advantage.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Some people do not want to be tied into a longer term arrangement. That was the research we carried out.

I thank Mr. Geaney.

Mr. Brian Geaney

To be fair, whether it is the Peter McVerry Trust, Galtan or Focus Ireland, these are housing associations that are very active, whether it is in the CAS or buy and renew, across the Cork market. They equally have found the scheme challenging to deliver units through.

I have engaged with them. We will have recommendations from this. I assume from what Mr. Geaney has said that one of the recommendations will be that the €60,000 allocation needs to be upped in that context.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes.

Galway City Council has not delivered a single unit under the repair and lease scheme, based on the figures on the Department's website. This is despite Galway being quite similar to Waterford, which has 50% of the national total of repair and lease units in the country. Why is this the case?

Ms Patricia Philbin

We have delivered on one repair and lease.

Ms Patricia Philbin

We had one inquiry related to a commercial property. The ground floor of the unit was not suitable for living accommodation but we asked the owner to look at the use of the two floors. We have not heard back from them since. There has been very little interest in it. That is why we held the event earlier this year. We advertised it publicly. About 40 people attended. It was a mix of auctioneers, architects, business owners and builders but there is very little take-up of it in the city.

The feedback from the council in Waterford, representatives of which have been before the committee, is they actively used the carrot-and-stick approach, with the CPO as the stick to get someone to come forward and then to have the repair and lease scheme be the carrot. Has Galway City Council done that with CPOs? How many properties has it attempted to acquire by CPO to try to bring out the owners of those properties to engage with the council on that scheme? If they are not willing to engage, the CPO is the obvious option.

Ms Patricia Philbin

We have a full-time vacant homes officer. Unfortunately, the position was vacant for a good part of the year because the person who held it was moved on to another job. We have done CPOs on the derelict sites. There were four CPOs and then there was another property we threatened a CPO on that Galway Simon subsequently acquired. That site is now being converted into ten single-bedroom units.

CPO has worked for the council in that context. Why then is it not doing more of it? Even if the follow-through is not there, it would get people to come out of the woodwork, engage with the council and then the offer of the repair and lease scheme can be there. Is that something the council can take from the committee today that it will endeavour to do?

Ms Patricia Philbin

We can, yes. Our vacant homes officer is permanently in place since September. As I said, we have held that event and we can follow through on any of those properties. We have had 12 successful applications through the living cities initiative and six have been delivered on. We can follow through on the other six.

Ms Patricia Philbin

There is a challenge with some of the properties in that there is commercial downstairs and then upstairs they do not have own-door access. That can be a bit of a challenge.

Yes. There are the fire regulations.

I thank Senator Cummins. I apologise but I must move along quickly as we have a lot of people attending. I call Senator Boyhan.

I welcome Ms Doherty, Mr. McGrath and their teams to the committee. I have some concise questions. I thank the council officials for coming in to engage with the committee. We appreciate it. I was listening from my office and have been listening since I came in. I will ask this question later but I want to flag it so the officials might reflect on it. Here we are, as people from different groups within the Oireachtas, asking the officials questions about their delivery targets. That makes me scratch my head and wonder whether the officials have a similar engagement with the people in the Custom House, who are the drivers of the Department and the policy. I ask the officials to reflect on that because I would like to hear how that critical analysis, oversight and engagement happens between them and the people in the Custom House.

I have a few questions for Ms Doherty and her team. I will come to Galway City Council if I have time. The officials have set out how many sites and properties are on the council's derelict sites list so they do not need to repeat it. How many of them belong to the council? It is an interesting figure that seems to be coming up all around the place. Councils themselves have responsibility, and are involved in the ownership of some of these properties. Are the officials satisfied all the council's properties that are derelict are on its list of sites? Can the officials advise us of the number of people who are on the council's social housing list? I will begin with those questions.

Ms Ann Doherty

No problem. I might invite Mr. Reidy in to talk about the derelict sites register. On the eligible applicants, at the moment we have 4,823.

All right, and how many of the properties the council owns or has an involvement with are on its derelict sites register?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

We have 110 on the register. We have acquired 29, of which 22 were compulsorily acquired. A further seven were acquired by agreement. Not all of them are used for housing. Some are used for regeneration and infrastructure.

How many of them belong to the council? How many does it own or have an interest in?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

We own 29 sites.

Those are sites that are derelict.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

Correct.

All right. What is the capacity for housing on those 29 sites? Has the council done an analysis? I ask Mr. Reidy and others to be quite concise in their replies, because time is running out.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

I will come back to the Senator with the absolute capacity if that is okay.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

Not all sites are for housing. Some are for regeneration and some for infrastructure.

Maybe at a later date the council could provide the committee with an analysis and breakdown of how many of the sites could be used for residential or have that capacity. As Mr. Reidy says, they are not all suitable but it is an interesting figure. Is the council considering the use of any vacant commercial or retail spaces for residential?

Ms Ann Doherty

We have done, and have delivered some. Mr. Geaney might want to talk about the current one, which is in the South Parish commercial building.

Mr. Brian Geaney

We have used our competitive dialogue process where we go out to the market and partner, in effect, with the private sector or a developer or contractor. We use our own Part 8 process that comes before the members. We have repurposed some buildings. We have a right-sizing scheme currently nearing completion on the Blackrock Road in the city. It is the former Pettit consulting engineers office. There are 35 units being completed there. On the Kinsale Road is another commercial building where we have used the same process. We are just going to construction on that one. That is something we are using through this process to bring housing.

The council is navigating planning and building regulations and all that without any great difficulty.

Mr. Brian Geaney

We are succeeding, yes. There is substantial repurposing in those buildings but we are succeeding in it.

That is great. The council has a target of building 4,136 social and affordable homes by 2026. Before I go further I thank the officials for that. Their housing delivery plan is very impressive but again everything is only great and successful if it is delivering. The officials are telling us the council will deliver 4,136 units by 2026. Is Ms Doherty, as chief executive, confident of delivering?

Clearly, there would be partnerships with AHBs and the LDA. I have read the report and I see how everything overlaps, which is positive. Are the witnesses confident they can deliver that by 2026?

Ms Ann Doherty

I draw the attention of the Senator to our track record.

I thought Ms Doherty was going to ask me to draw breath.

Ms Ann Doherty

I draw the attention of the Senator to our track record which might help him make an assessment of our future capability.

Okay. Ms Doherty is reasonably confident.

Ms Ann Doherty

We live in a very uncertain time.

Given all of that-----

Ms Ann Doherty

It is a significant lift to get there.

Fantastic. I have a question on the 324 cost rental homes to be provided by AHBs. Can Mr. Geaney give some indication of the timelines around that in terms of delivery? At the end of the day, this is all about the delivery of homes. It is not about ideology; rather, it is about getting homes over the line and getting people into them. Can he tell us about the cost rental homes and synergies with AHBs? I understand the 324 units will be delivered through AHBs. What is the timeline for that?

Ms Patricia Philbin

We propose that in 2023 we will deliver 35 cost rental homes, in 2024 we will deliver 129 and in 2025 we will deliver 90. That makes up the figure of 324.

Ms Philbin is reasonably confident that can happen.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes.

I will continue on the question on cost rental because it is very an area I have a very keen interest in. The cost rental figure for Cork city for 2022 is 105 units. Is that correct? To clarify, in 2022, through the AHB sector, Cork will deliver 105 cost rental homes.

Mr. Brian Geaney

That is across two projects in Cork, one in Lancaster Quay, which the Taoiseach will open at the end of this month, on 28 October, and another 32 units in Ballinglanna in Glanmire.

I want to look forward to 2023, 2024 and 2025. Cost rental is a new form of tenure. I understand why it might be a little slow getting off the ground and why a lot of people are still not sure what cost rental is. What are the figures for the following years?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Our overall affordable housing figure is 1,737, less the 378 units for affordable purchase. With the AHB sector and the LDA, most units will be cost rental. Our biggest issue at the moment is getting activation for the planning permissions that are in place in the city. Some 8,000 units have planning. There is engagement with some developers, with a view to getting cost rental units to follow on from Lancaster Quay. However, the interest rate increase by the HFA and hyperinflation in construction are presenting challenges. We will have a significant opportunity to get some of those planning permissions activated with the LDA.

What are the figures for 2023, 2024 and 2025? I will ask the witnesses from Galway the same question. I understand the difficulty created by inflation, but the CREL has also been increased. Does that offset the problem?

Mr. Brian Geaney

The subvention will help. It is being increased to 45%, but the main challenge is the 1% interest rate increase introduced by the HFA. I will offer some comparisons. In Lancaster Quay a two-bedroom apartment is coming in at just under €1,100 and one-bedroom apartment is just under €1,000. With construction inflation and some of the newer opportunities under consideration, there will be an increase in rents which would make them €1,350 or €1,400 per month. There are projects that would be difficult to justify as affordable in the current market. With the increase in the subvention, it is to be hoped we will make some projects more affordable.

Does Mr. Geaney have an idea how many cost rental units will be produced in 2023, 2024 and 2025?

Mr. Brian Geaney

We hope to have 220 or 230 units per year for each of those years, if we can get some planning permissions activated.

Okay. I put the same question to the representatives from Galway. I understand the figure in the plan provides for 1,005 affordable and cost rental units. Could the witnesses from Galway break down those figures in terms of cost rental units in any greater detail?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Of the 1,005 units, 324 units will be cost rental.

Over what time period will the 324 units be delivered?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Thirty-five will be delivered in 2023, 199 in 2024 and 90 in 2025. After 2026, we expect to have a bigger supply of cost rental because two large schemes with the LDA are being progressed. They will be on-site towards the end of this plan but will be delivered after it.

I am not overly familiar with the work of Galway and Cork city councils. I want to ask about engagement with the LDA. There are two LDA projects, one in each county. I ask the witnesses to talk about how engagement with the LDA has been going and what it has brought to housing provision. We will start with Cork.

Ms Ann Doherty

There is a scheme in Cork city with the LDA, St. Kevin's, which Deputy Gould has spent a long time promoting. It involves a derelict site. We have a very good relationship with the LDA and signed a memorandum of understanding with it regarding the Cork city docklands, which is the biggest regeneration site in Europe. It is a significant regeneration project. We find engagement with the LDA great. It brings new thinking and different approaches. From our perspective, it is great to have a partner that we can bounce things off, which has been helpful for us. As I said, enabling works have started on the St. Kevin's site. It is an LDA project and we look forward to working with it on other projects in the city.

What will the St. Kevin's site produce in terms of affordable and cost rental housing?

Mr. Brian Geaney

The overall figure is approximately 270 units. I do not know whether the final breakdown has been worked out, but about 20% of the units will be for social housing with the balance for affordable housing.

All of the units will be for social and affordable housing.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes.

Ms Patricia Philbin

We had very good engagement with the LDA. We have two sites, Sandy Road and Dyke Road. We have the heads of agreement in place on Sandy Road and the design team is in place there. A steering committee has been established and we meet at regular intervals regarding progress on Dyke Road. We are currently discussing the heads of agreement. The chief executive might come in on that project.

I ask Mr. McGrath to give us a sense of what Sandy Road and Dyke Road will produce and the timeline involved. What is the breakdown in terms of cost rental and affordable housing?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Sandy Road comprises a 20-acre site jointly owned by the city and county councils and the ESB. Strangely, the three institutions have their depots and outdoor yards there. Like Cork, we have had very strong engagement with the LDA from the outset. We carried out an RIAI - Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland - visioning exercise on Sandy Road early in the process, which showed the residential delivery in terms of the local authority elements is in the region of about 550 to 1,200. We believe the higher figure, or closer to it, is achievable. That will be, in effect, a new residential suburb. A substantial number of the units will be affordable and some will be social units. It is about 12 to 14 minutes' walk from Eyre Square, to put things in context. It will be linked to the city centre by sustainable transport. It will be a mixed-use residential area. As Ms Philbin has said, the process is moving on. Part of the challenge is that we have to relocate our depots and people off the site. Parallel work is taking place in order to enable that.

I thank Mr McGrath. I will move on as I am out of time.

I thank representatives from both councils for the information they have given. I have a question for Cork City Council first, following what was said about the 8,000 planning permissions that have not been activated in Cork city. How does this compare with a few years ago? Is there a growing number of unactivated planning permissions? Could the witnesses give us a sense of those figures?

Ms Ann Doherty

The SHD process has driven many of those applications. It is a growing number. Obviously, we also had a boundary extension. When considering our data, one should bear in mind that before 2019 the city was five times smaller. The SHD process has driven many of those applications.

Okay. Many of these are SHDs.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes.

A few owners hold the bulk of these 8,000 unactivated planning applications.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes.

If we could get some of these sites activated, that could lead to 220 or 230 cost rental homes a year being delivered. What measures would help to activate them? What measures at local or national level could be taken to help local authorities activate some of these unused planning permissions? This is a key issue across the country, with approximately 80,000 unactivated planning applications, of which a large number have come through the SHD process, as Ms Doherty stated, and are owned by a few actors?

Mr. Brian Geaney

There will be a new call by the LDA through Croí Cónaithe. We expect that some developers in the city or holders of those proposed developments will put in a submission to that call. In addition, looking back at our project on Lancaster Quay with Clúid Housing Association, the 1% interest rate increase has changed the model radically in terms of trying to get back down to rents in the order of €1,100 for a two-bedroom apartment. There is also the hyperinflation in construction prices, which is an added dimension and problem.

Should penalties or disincentives be considered for people who have planning permissions but are not activating them?

Ms Ann Doherty

We need to recognise the viability issue. In Cork city, no apartments are being built, apart from what is being done through our social and affordable housing programmes. There is a viability issue, so I am not sure that a financial disincentive would achieve anything other than possibly leading to fewer properties being built. Maybe we should work together on measures that would help to address some of those viability issues. I do not have all the answers but we need homes and should be working collectively to create conditions in which homes can be built.

If there are no apartments being built by private developers who have all these planning applications, we cannot get less than zero if penalties are put in place to encourage people to stop sitting on planning permissions or to release the land to people who can make it viable.

Ms Ann Doherty

I do not disagree with the Deputy but I would like to work with people to make things happen.

I thank the witnesses from Cork City Council for their replies.

As regards Galway city, lower delivery is anticipated this year in terms of the build of social houses. It will be coming in at about 154 or 158 homes. The reasons cited by the witnesses are the number of delays on a local authority site, a turnkey site and an AHB site. Is there anything that could be done to reduce or prevent those sorts of delays? Is there nothing that can be done in respect of them?

Ms Patricia Philbin

On one of the sites, we have had to go out to retender it. Obviously, that is a long delay, but we expect to have a contractor in place at the beginning of January. The Department is very supportive in terms of moving that along. As regards the turnkey site, the delay was unavoidable. The builder could not get the supply of fire doors it needed within the required timeframe. As regards trying to accelerate the delivery on the AHB site, again, time delays are being experienced in the context of supplies.

A certain level of delays in construction projects is not unusual. In order to meet targets, does there need to be headroom so that one would be planning to deliver a larger number of builds than the target and, as such, if there is a delay on a project or two, one would still come in at the target? Is that a realistic approach that should be taken? Has the council just been very unlucky this year?

Ms Patricia Philbin

From the start, we outlined that the target set for us by the Department was not achievable because we were not on site with enough schemes to meet it. We tried to be ambitious in terms of trying to bring other sites forward but that just has not happened. It is about trying to accelerate more of our sites to offset. We expect to over-deliver on the targets set by the Department in certain years but, unfortunately, we will not reach the target this year.

If the targets were to be set higher and the council was going to be delivering more, what would it need as a local authority to do that? What support would it need? What challenges would it need help to address?

Ms Patricia Philbin

At the moment, we have sufficient land bank, but we will have to start considering that now. It comes down to resources. Thankfully, we have six additional capital staff on the administrative side who are being funded by the Department. This is the first time that has happened. A further five are due to come in terms of affordable home delivery. It is extremely challenging to recruit administrative staff, but also technical staff. It comes down to resources. It appears that there is insufficient capacity in the private sector in terms of architects and engineers. Mr. Barrett ran a competition recently and only one architect applied. It comes down to resources.

Staffing resources, including technical staffing resources, is a key challenge.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes.

Mr. Brian Barrett

The sector is crying out for technical skills such as architects, quantity surveyors, design teams and project managers. One just cannot get them at the moment.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. They are all on the front line of the crisis and they, and their teams, are doing all they can to help to solve it. I thank them for their efforts.

I have four questions that I would like each local authority to answer and then I will have specific comments and questions relating to their presentations. I will go first to Cork City Council and then to Galway City Council. What is the current social housing waiting list in Cork City Council?

Mr. Brian Geaney

It is 4,823, with applicants.

What is the number in Galway?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

We have approximately 4,000 households on the housing waiting list at the moment. I will get the exact figure for the Deputy.

Have the homeless counters of both councils reopened since Covid?

Mr. Brian Geaney

From our perspective, it never closed. We have a facility separate from City Hall. It is an accommodation placement service that operates five days a week.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Likewise, the service in Galway city did not close.

I know one of the councils confirmed this already, but do they both have full-time vacant homes officers?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes.

Fantastic. Do they currently have empty capital advance leasing facility, CALF, homes?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

We do, but no more than the average vacancy rate that might arise with stock turnover and so on. The majority of the AHB homes in the city are occupied.

Super. There is no particular impediment or stumbling block in that regard.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

There is not. They operate choice-based letting as well. We try to reduce the vacancy period between homes becoming available and being re-let. Obviously, there are works required in between, but the choice-based letting system operates really well in the city.

Mr. Brian Geaney

We have no issues with CALF properties, outside the normal re-lets.

Fantastic. I thank the witnesses. As regards Cork, I love the ambition behind the statement that targets are a minimum. That is a massive statement to make in a committee room such as this. I thank the council for that. Is 691 properties its target for 2022 , or is that what it expects to achieve?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Our target is 637. Although we refer to 54 acquisitions, acquisitions are not counted against our 2022 target. That is the national position.

Fantastic. Of those the council is going to deliver, 135 are affordable and 105 are cost rental this year.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes, exactly.

That is approximately 35%.

Mr. Brian Geaney

In terms of new build units in Cork this year, whether it is across our new build target for social housing, affordable purchase or cost rental, and then social housing for leasing purposes, there will be 858 new build units in the city.

Brilliant. That is encouraging. Also encouraging is the information that has been provided on dereliction in Cork and the 22 sites in respect of which compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, were issued, with 619 already delivered and 200 more in the pipeline.

I would be interested to hear if they had any best practice that they could share with other local authorities that are struggling in this field or if they were in a position to link with Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, or Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, to do a presentation on it. It would be good. What we do not want is reinvent the wheel for ever local authority. It is important we all learn from each other where things are working.

Ms Ann Doherty

We would be happy to. We have case studies. Mr. Reidy, who is online, and the team have developed case studies and we are happy to share them.

Brilliant. It sounds like Galway has between 152 and 158 in the pipeline to be delivered this year. Am I correct that this is 60% of their target?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Yes.

Unlike Cork, unfortunately, it is not a target as a minimum.

The officials spoke about limited vacant homes in the city. GeoDirectory, probably combining Galway City Council and Galway County Council figures, found that Galway was quite well above the average when it came to vacancies and the vacancy rate. The North and Western Regional Assembly found similar. What is Galway City Council characterising as the vacancy rate in Galway city?

Mr. Brian Barrett

We are working off the CSO preliminary census figures, which gives us a total of 2,963 vacant properties. The challenge with that within Galway city and why it might be higher is there are probably a lot of short-term lets because of the tourism business. That may increase the figures that are identified as vacant properties but they are actually active. That is a challenge that we have.

To come back on another matter, the actual figure for the housing waiting list is 4,321 households. Regarding the targets, while we are at 60%, we will exceed the delivery next year because a number of the projects are slipping into quarters 1 and 2 of next year. We will exceed our delivery next year.

What does Mr. Barrett expect to exceed them by?

Mr. Brian Barrett

By approximately 40 or 50 properties. Mr. Mahon might come in on that.

That would exceed 341.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

I can answer that. The target for next year is 219 and the pipeline at present is 343. Therefore, we will exceed the target next year. Granted, some of those we would have hoped to have completed this year but they are drifting into next year. It is 343 against a target of 219.

Where is that target of 219 outlined? I am looking at the table on the top of page 2 of the presentation.

Ms Patricia Philbin

It is the Department's target as opposed to our target.

Will Galway City Council hit its own target of 341?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

The target of 219 is the Department's target that is incorporated within our overall target for 2022 to 2026. It is the target the Department set. Our delivery, at the minute, is 343 units against that target of 219.

According to the table on page 2, in 2023, the target Galway City Council is setting itself is 341. This is the table at the start of page 2 of the statement Galway City Council has supplied to us today.

Ms Patricia Philbin

That table is the Department's targets for us as opposed to our targets.

That is the Department's target. Where is 219 coming from then?

Ms Patricia Philbin

That is what the Department set as our target for that year.

But that is 341.

Ms Patricia Philbin

They are giving us a target of 219 and we propose to deliver 341.

Okay. Is Galway County Council to deliver 265 - the figure above it for 2022 - this year then?

Ms Patricia Philbin

No. We will not meet our target for this year.

Okay. How is Galway County Council exceeding next year's target based on this year's homes running into next year, because the table does not show that?

Ms Patricia Philbin

On the table for the Department's targets?

I do not know who provides the table. It is what Galway County Council provided to us on page 2.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Those were the targets that were issued to us by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

This was issued to Galway County Council by the Department. Therefore, 341 is the target there for 2023.

Ms Patricia Philbin

That is our target.

Is that issued to Galway County Council by the Department or is it set within the local authority?

Ms Patricia Philbin

That is within our local authority.

Where does the figure 219 come from? Is that set for Galway County Council by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes.

Therefore, Galway County Council will not meet the target it set for itself of 265. What was the target the Department set for the council?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Three hundred and five.

Is it correct that the 265 that Galway County Council will not meet are baked into the 341 for next year already and the homes have rolled on into next year?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

That is right.

I suppose that will skew the council's targets next year. It will only perhaps meet them, rather than exceed them, by whatever figure they gave me earlier.

Ms Patricia Philbin

The overall target given to us by the Department for 2022 to 2026 is 1,235. We propose that we will deliver 1,435. Therefore, we are exceeding.

I am sorry, Deputy Higgins is out of time on that slot. There will be time to come back in again if she wishes.

I thank the Chairman. I would appreciate that.

I will move on now to the second Sinn Féin slot. I call Deputy Ó Broin.

I thank both local authorities for the presentations and all the data. I acknowledge the enormous work both our guests and their teams in both local authorities do on their housing and homeless brief. If that can be conveyed to the teams, certainly, on my party's behalf, I would appreciate that.

I will not ask lots of questions about figures because our heads are probably pickled at this stage but I will ask a few to help the committee get our head around the way in which the targets for affordable housing are determined and agreed. We had a briefing with the departmental officials on the housing need and demand assessment the other day and some of us left the meeting a little more confused about the operation of that tool than when we went into it.

The questions are general and I invite the local authority officials to explain in English as plain as possible how this works. It is all very well us having discussions around whether targets are being met or not, but how we determine the targets and whether they are sufficient to meet the need is an equally important question.

I am looking at both of the local authorities' housing delivery action plans as submitted to and agreed with the Department at the end of last year. For example, with respect to Galway, there is a table on page 7 of the plan that sets out the projected housing need and demand assessment, HNDA, need and affordability constraint each year up to 2026, and then the targets. This is no criticism of anybody in this room but I would say if anybody from Galway was reading that table, he or she would be scratching his or her head to determine that there is no affordability challenge in 2022, only 119 in 2023, etc.

Likewise, for example, the targets themselves are quite low. The HNDA seems to suggest Galway over the next five years has an affordability challenge of 551 households and there are targets set there for 1,005 units to be delivered between the local authority, LDA and AHBs. When I look at a similar table in Cork city's housing delivery action plan, given the size of the city and the constraints on cost for people who are renting or buying, there is only an affordability constraint of 1,700 households. The total target, when adding the local authority's, the LDA's and AHBs, is 1,700. I was hoping both local authorities could explain how is that figure derived in terms of the affordability test and how do we go from that to the actual targets because it looks like Galway has doubled the target from the need to the delivery whereas it looks like Cork has simply taken the HNDA and mapped that against the targets. Maybe both local authorities could enlighten us on that.

Ms Ann Doherty

I might invite Mr. Ó Donnabháin, director of housing, to assist with that analysis.

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

To determine the number of affordable and social housing units to be delivered in Cork city for the period 2022 to 2026, the HNDA included in the joint housing strategy and the city development plan were used. The number of social housing units equates to 20.4%, with the affordable housing percentage at 12.7%. That 12.7% equates to 1,737.

With regard to the social housing target as per the HNDA, our number, as set by the Department, would have been 2,996.

What we have sought to do, in recognition of some of the issues the Deputy has raised, is to seek a higher target and set that as a minimum target of the 3,934. Yes, the affordable target is a minimum and a significant portion of it will be delivered through the AHB and the LDA, with which we wish to work to set the minimums and drive those numbers. However, that is derived from the HNDA and-----

Where does the figure of 12% come from? How is an affordability requirement of 12% determined?

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

It is derived from the HNDA process which was provided by the Department as a tool to inform the joint housing strategy and the city development plan. We have been informed by that process.

I apologise for pressing Mr. Ó Donnabháin on it but will he explain how it works? We understand that the HNDA is a tool provided by the Department but how is a figure of 12% or 1,700 households in need of affordable housing generated? I ask him to explain in the simplest terms possible.

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

I will have to come back to the committee with the full detail of the breakdown. It looks at a number of factors and elements associated with the population of Cork and the relevant inputs from the point of view of affordability and household size with regard to purchasing power. They drive the figure.

How does it work in Galway?

Ms Patricia Philbin

I will deal with the affordable side and then I will get Mr. Mahon to come in on the social side. Some 24% was identified in the HNDA as being constrained by affordability, which equated to 904 units required. However, we have a target of 1,005 units.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

Similar to Cork, the Department provided the HNDA tool, which includes factors like local property prices, average incomes and household size. It generated the affordability-constrained number of 903. There a slight overlap in times because our development plan runs from 2023 to 2029 and the housing delivery plan runs from 2022 to 2026. There is a gap in the figure for 2022 because it was not produced as part of the HNDA process. We tried to match, as closely we could, the affordability-constrained households with our overall delivery notwithstanding that the target issued by the Department of 151 over five years was quite low. Ms. Philbin mentioned the scheme we have going to procurement shortly which will provide approximately half of that figure and we have a number of other schemes in planning. We are confident that the target of 151 will be easily achieved. I think that is it. Was there another part to the question?

No, I am out of time.

Deputy Ó Broin might have time in the third round.

I was listening carefully. If I am correct, there are 4,800 households on the housing list in Cork. We have 4,321 households on the housing list in Galway, which is a much smaller city. The Cork target for 2026 is 3,934 units whereas the Galway target is 1,435 units. Does the CEO agree that there is a housing crisis in Galway?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

There is a severe housing challenge.

What is the number of affordable houses in construction at present?

Ms Patricia Philbin

There are none on site at present.

What are the numbers to be delivered in 2022, 2023 and 2024, respectively?

Ms Patricia Philbin

The number for 2022 is zero. Eighty-five are to be delivered in 2023; 430 in 2024; 390 in 2025 and 100 in 2026.

For many people, 2025 is getting into the distant future. I understand that 80% of the cohort seeking emergency accommodation in Galway are Travellers. Will the witnesses outline very briefly why that figure is that disproportionate?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Would Mr. Mahon mind answering that question?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

We have a high proportion of Traveller families in private emergency accommodation throughout the city, including in a family hub that we developed in 2018 and a subsequent modular hub facility, which opened in 2020 and was the first such facility in the country. Approximately 40 Traveller families are availing of private emergency accommodation at present. Principally, the private rental market is not an option for Traveller families anymore.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

We looked at the figures in our mid-term review of the Traveller accommodation programme. The number of Traveller families accessing HAP is reducing to a minimal number. The number of direct local authority allocations or AHB allocations is increasing. The reliance on the private market with regard to accommodation supports for Travellers is significantly reduced, as it is for the general population, but Travellers find it especially challenging to access private rental accommodation in the current market. That has subsequently led to an increase in the number of homeless Traveller families that are presenting. Many of them are young family formations that are not in a position to which we would allocate a standard local authority allocation at this point, given their time on the housing waiting list. It is a problem.

We are working with Galway County Council and the Department. I think there was a question earlier on about engagement with the Department. We will meet with the Department and Galway County Council tomorrow to address this issue. There have been a number of committee meetings because a number of the families wish to be housed in the Galway county area and we are looking at how we might be able to facilitate that. However, Deputy Ó Cuív is right in that a significant number of the families in homeless services in the city are Traveller families.

Following on from that and recognising that a disproportionate challenge is faced by the Traveller community because of bias in the private market, will Mr. Mahon tell me how many Traveller-specific schemes were delivered in the past five years?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

No Traveller-specific schemes were delivered in the past five years. Our current-----

How many are planned for the next five years?

Ms Patricia Philbin

We are starting 40 units-----

Mr. Dermot Mahon

There are five schemes in planning, one of which, with the benefit of Part 8, will be on site in January. Two other schemes are with An Bord Pleanála. One of them has been with the board for a considerable period of time and the other one has been with it since April of this year. As soon as we get the green light for planning, we will be on site with those relatively quickly.

We have devised quite a unique proposal on Traveller-specific accommodation, which we call culturally specific Traveller accommodation, which is not a halting site or a group scheme but a combination of both. A scheme to redevelop the Circular Road halting site will commence in January which will be a good demonstrator model for other schemes throughout the city and the country with regard to a best-practice model for provision of Traveller-specific accommodation.

There are plans in place. Some of the timelines for planning can be quite frustrating but we have a plan. We have an active local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, and active subcommittees, one of which met earlier today. We are actively engaged with the local Traveller movement with regard to providing a series of supports for Traveller families but the big challenge is the delivery of those Traveller-specific units in the coming years.

Will some of them be replacements for substandard existing accommodation? They will not provide new accommodation for Travellers on the waiting list.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

Some of them are to deal with the existing issues on two sites in the city that will essentially have to close. We do not own one of the sites and the conditions on the other are not great. We need to close that site over time and provide alternative accommodation supports for those families who have requested a particular form of support, that is, Traveller-specific accommodation as opposed to a standard local authority house.

In our next TAP, which we will be drafting very soon, we will look at additional schemes required across the city whether they are the typical group housing scheme or our culturally appropriate Traveller accommodation schemes.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Does Mr. Mahon have the number for allocations of social homes to members of the Travelling community?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

It is hugely disproportionate in that Travellers might account for roughly 1% of the population or 2% in the city and possibly 5% of our total housing waiting list. Our allocation to Traveller families last year was up at about 10%. We afford a significant priority to Traveller allocations. They can be combined with certain specific properties where there is a disability requirement. Where we can provide support for Traveller families we are doing so. It is significantly disproportionate to their actual population across the city. It raises some challenges, but we deal with those as best we can.

If it is 5% versus 80% in emergency accommodation, it suddenly shows the scale of the problem.

Sorry Deputy-----

May I just ask one more question?

We are over the seven minutes. If the Deputy wants to ask the question,-----

I was very sharp with my questions.

-----we might not have time for the answer, but the Deputy may ask the question.

When was the original contract signed on the 58 units in Garraí Beag sa Bhaile Bán? What is the estimated time for completion?

Ms Patricia Philbin

The original contract was in 2019. The scheme needed to be retendered. The pre-quals are in at the moment. We will go to full tender with the appointment of the contractor early next year and a delivery timeframe of 14 months.

It should be delivered in 2024. So, it is five years.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the work they are doing. Ms Doherty said that 4,823 people are on the housing list. Is that for Cork city and county?

Ms Ann Doherty

They are separate local authorities for city and county.

From the point of an LDA, how much funding is there for people within the county, for delivery of houses for counties?

Ms Ann Doherty

I would have no information on the county council, which is a separate organisation with its own council and its own chief executive.

There are plenty of business people in Cork who want to provide accommodation for their staff, but they have been brought under the rule that they need to have a certain amount of social housing. If they are building a block of apartments for staff, they still need to build social housing units. If a person wanted to build 20 units for staff, those staff who otherwise would be on the housing list could then be taken off the housing list. Would it not make sense that if somebody had a business case where they want to build 20 apartments for their staff only, they should be allowed to do it?

Ms Ann Doherty

I suppose the Deputy is talking about the Planning and Development Act a bit more than dealing with the housing issue.

It is still a housing-----

Ms Ann Doherty

It is absolutely interconnected. I have no experience of any business person approaching me wanting to build units for their staff. Under the Planning and Development Act, a certain percentage of all developments must go for social housing.

If a business person in Cork city approached the council with a proposal to build housing for their staff, would the council support it? Would it not help to reduce its housing list?

Ms Ann Doherty

The Deputy is making an assumption that all the staff are eligible for social housing support, which they may not be; I do not know. We need to exercise our-----

Assumption or not, I am asking Ms Doherty if a person approached the council and was in a position to build 20 apartments for the staff of their business which supports the local economy and the local area, would she be in favour of that or not?

Ms Ann Doherty

Under the current Planning and Development Act, which as the planning authority we are obliged to administer, I could not facilitate that.

Ms Doherty could not facilitate it even if someone could put apartments up.

Ms Ann Doherty

I have to operate within the law of the land and that is how we-----

If there was a chance that they might look to change the law of the land under exceptional circumstances because we are in a housing crisis, would Ms Doherty support it then? Would she support it if the law was changed to help the council's process of delivering houses?

Ms Ann Doherty

If the law of the land changed, of course, we will administer the law of the land.

What I am asking is if it was a proposal-----

I might interject here. We are going through a significant review of the planning system and the Deputy might wish to submit that as an amendment.

It is something we will bring up, but would it not help us if we had the support of Cork City Council and Galway City Council and from people in their areas? Given that we are discussing the laws of planning at the moment if business people were in a position to build apartments for their staff, would it be something you would support?

Deputy, we make the laws and the witnesses present execute the laws.

Ms Ann Doherty

We could swap seats and I can become the legislator.

No, Ms Doherty can stay where she is and I am coming from the right county as well.

The witnesses here today cover the delivery of properties Cork city and Galway city. One of the witnesses from Cork City Council said that Cork has 29 derelict sites. Is that correct?

Ms Ann Doherty

I believe my colleague Mr. Reidy said we had acquired 29 sites under CPO.

How many of them are listed?

Ms Ann Doherty

Does Mr. Reidy have an answer to that? Of the properties we have acquired under CPO, how many are listed?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

I understand none of those properties is a protected structure.

How many of the properties Cork City Council has acquired are flood zones A and B?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

All of Cork is subject to flooding, particularly the city centre. Anywhere in the city centre would be prone to flood.

I understand they are all under flood zones because Cork city is down in a hole. How many of the derelict sites the council has are under flood zone A or B?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

I would need to come back to the Deputy on that.

Throughout the country we have a problem with flooding and many of the properties Cork City Council has acquired under CPO are within a flood plain. There is an issue with the accuracy of the flood plain maps at the moment. I had one myself this morning in Limerick where they actually had put in properties on a flood plain. We went away and we got it researched and found out that the maps were inaccurate. Many of the flood plain maps are inaccurate at the moment. Some of them are inaccurate from the levels they are taken. They are only taken on a basic map system. I would be interested to know how much money is being put into properties at the moment under flood zone A? They are actually stopping people building any houses at the moment under flood zone B in other counties. How many of the Cork City Council houses are under group A? I would be interested in finding out especially when it is good taxpayers' money going into building these houses. On the one hand, they are saying that these houses on a flood plain can be done up and on the other hand they are telling us that we cannot even do it in flood zone B which would only flood every 100 years. If Ms Doherty can give that information back to the board, it would be-----

Ms Ann Doherty

It would be best if we came back with that. It definitely was not in my prep list.

I was thinking that. I thank Ms Doherty for her time. Well done.

A few questions there require written answers, particularly how much of the council-owned land is under flood zone A and B.

I will finish on time. I will not even go on.

I appreciate that.

I thank the witnesses for their statements. They have a challenging job considering the numerous crises we have all been enduring. Although I missed the earlier part of the meeting, I watched it from my office. I apologise if any of my questions overlaps. According to the Cork City Council statement in comparison to the housing delivery action plan, it appears Cork will exceed targets for social and affordable housing in 2022. Are its projections for 2023 as promising?

I apologise if my question has been answered already but I would appreciate a quick answer.

Mr. Brian Geaney

We will meet our social housing target for 2022. We are very confident that we will meet our ambitious 2023 target of 821 units due to the pipeline that we have under construction and the number of projects that are about to go to construction.

In the context of the discourse it appears that there will be a shortfall this year. Will Galway City Council make up for this year's shortfall? The delegation may have answered my question already as Deputy Higgins asked about this aspect.

Ms Patricia Philbin

We have a shortfall this year but we expect to go over our Department target next year and we expect to go over our overall target by the end of our housing delivery action plan.

That is brilliant. Perhaps Deputy Matthews has already asked about cost rentals. Can both city councils give us an idea of their cost rentals?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Cork City Council has 105 units that will completed this year. As I outlined earlier, the Taoiseach will open 73 units at Lancaster Quay in Cork city at the end of October and there is a further 32 units at Ballinglanna in Glanmire. We have set our housing delivery action plan. We are engaging with the AHB sector and the LDA to develop a pipeline with regard to planning permissions that are in place in Cork but not yet activated. Again, we are confident that we will develop the pipeline and achieve our targets for the remainder of 2023, and for 2024 and 2025.

That is brilliant.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Galway City Council does not expect any cost rentals this year. We expect about 85 units next year, and a higher delivery of 430 in 2024 and 390 in 2025. Post 2026 we expect delivery to rise again because two of our sites are being developed by the LDA and they will start to deliver at that point.

That is brilliant. Have both authorities been approached by landlords wishing to sell their properties with tenants in situ? I ask because last week two delegations were before this committee. The delegation from Dublin City Council told us that the scenario I outlined has happened quite a bit and the delegation from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council said that it did not happen so much for them.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Galway City Council currently has 36 expressions of interest from venders.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Cork City Council is engaging with landlords as well. There are up to 50 properties under consideration at the moment.

That is great and shows the initiative is working.

There have been challenges over the past few years. Plus due to the war in Ukraine we have taken in around 50,000 refugees so they take up quite a few bed spaces and house spaces. I believe that we, as a country, should provide such assistance. Has such provision affected homelessness and the people who were already on housing lists? Do the city councils see light at the end of the tunnel?

Ms Ann Doherty

In terms of the homeless, finding emergency accommodation is more challenging and it is a challenge for the hospitality sector.

Mr. Brian Barrett

The situation outlined affects costs in the hospitality sector. I mean it keeps the price of hotel rooms higher than normal for this time of year because of the significant demand for accommodation that would not normally exist. By contrast, the situation supplies a portion of the labour force to the sector. There are challenges and I shall outline one major challenge. Some of the properties that we would have used for our cold weather response during the winter are now being to provide accommodation to Ukrainians. As a result we have had to find alternative accommodation for our cold winter response. There are challenges due to the demand for properties in the city and that situation is compounded by a student accommodation issue.

Are the delegations saying that the situation has not had any effect?

Ms Ann Doherty

For us, I do not believe that it has had any impact because we sourced new accommodation. By that I do not mean new build but accommodation that was not in stock. For example, a hostel that was used to house visitors to the city became vacant so it did displace a tourism market. Two other properties were vacated by religious orders so they were not in use in the city. Up to now I can very comfortably say no but the situation may change as time goes on if more displaced people arrive from the Ukraine.

That is great and thank you.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan was due to speak but he is speaking in the Dáil Chamber. I call Senator Cummins and Deputy O'Sullivan can speak when he arrives.

Earlier I asked questions about vacant and derelict premises. There are other schemes such as the buy and renew scheme, and CPOs. I shall focus on discussing leasing as a method of delivery. Cork City Council has a 122 units in 2022 and 80 units in 2023. I cannot remember if those details were mentioned in its housing delivery action plan or in the documentation supplied to the committee. Have the city councils found leasing as a useful tool in the delivery of housing units? Would they like to see leasing re-introduced?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Much of Cork City Council's numbers are made up of a pretty large social leasing scheme of 135 units. Interestingly, regarding the choice based letting, CBL, system, and certainly not in terms of the first CBL units, we have not found that people have differentiated between new build units by the local authority or an approved housing body. We still have people waiting ten or 11 years who are bidding on these properties. Social leasing activated planning permissions in the city. In my opinion the 135 units that I have mentioned would never have got to construction if the social housing leasing initiative was not in place.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

Galway City Council has had a slightly different experience in that there has not been much uptake by developers of large schemes. We have one approval of 42 units but that was subsequently withdrawn. It came back in through an AHB CALF scheme so social units will be delivered. In 2021, we had 11 units on a long-term lease and they were all individual one-off properties. This year, there are 3 units. So there are 14 units that will be allocated using choice based letting.

Is it useful? Every and all mechanisms that are available are useful. The plethora of schemes or options available to a developer can sometimes muddy the water because there is too much choice. We have received a lot of expressions of interest from developers who examined the feasibility of the long-term leasing option. As they worked through the process they found that it was not feasible and said they preferred to either pursue the turnkey route or partner with an AHB. We did not get a significant supply from long-term leasing other than one-off units with individual landlords. If the scheme were to be introduced then anything that increases supply is to be welcomed.

I concur with that view. There is an ideological hang-up about leasing, which is unhelpful. We must welcome any scheme that grants security of tenure to a tenant for between 20 and 25 years versus somebody living in an unsecured HAP property.

That is perhaps something we can debate as a committee in the context of our recommendations. I will take that a little bit further and focus on County Cork, given what Mr. Geaney said regarding the leasing element. He referenced earlier the inactivated private rented sector, PRS. We spoke with representatives from Dublin City Council about this last week. My view is that there is a huge opportunity in untapped PRS schemes that have not yet been activated. Mr. Geaney spoke about the difficulty in cost rental with the ultimate rents and what the calculation is coming out at. The problem as I see it is that X plus Y often equals market rent, not market rent minus 25% and, therefore, viability is the issue in that regard. He might comment on that.

There have been changes in the context of CREL, which are helpful in terms of the 45%. I appreciate that I am asking him to comment on something that is not in place but our job as a committee is to tease out possible ways of unlocking development. However, if a subsidy was in place so that X plus Y minus the subsidy equalled a more affordable rent, does he think that would unlock even more of the inactivated sites in Cork city?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes. I believe that if we can get rents down in the scheme for any of those developments I referenced at Lancaster Quay-----

That is for a one-bedroom unit below €1,000 per month and a two-bedroom at €1,200 per month.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Exactly. We need to be down at that level. Some might say those rents are still high. We had 1,800 applications in the city for those 73 units, however. The Senator is right; if we can bring in a subsidy that brings rents down to that level, it would get many of those planning permissions activated and create that social mix we want to get. We are doing an awful lot of social housing in the city.

We have to have a mix.

Mr. Brian Geaney

It is important that we have a social mix going forward.

And a living city.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes.

I appreciate that I may run out of time so perhaps Mr. Geaney could take that up a little later. With regard to the rightsizing scheme, he said approximately 35 units are nearly completed. Is that solely for existing social tenants to rightsize or is the council taking private houses into stock and allocating secure tenancies? If the council is doing the latter, how many of the 35 would that account for?

Mr. Brian Geaney

If the Senator does not mind, I will reference the scheme that went to construction and that has been completed.

That would be perfect.

Mr. Brian Geaney

The ratio between public and private was 2:1 and, therefore, of the 30 units, ten were private and 20 were social housing tenants who rightsized.

It worked well.

Mr. Brian Geaney

It worked very well and there was good demand.

Cork City Council got an additional ten units into its stock on the back of that.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Absolutely. In fairness, the key learning we had from the rightsizing schemes the council brought through the Part 8 process is that they have to be located in the areas in which people are giving up those houses and where they have lived for most of their lives.

If we have time, I would like to tease that out.

We are into the third round now. The order I am taking is Deputies Gould and McAuliffe, myself and Senator Boyhan. I can bring Senator Cummins back in then if that is okay. We will go to Deputy Gould now. We are okay to stick to seven minutes.

I will ask some quick-fire questions of Cork City Council. How many HAP properties is it in the process of purchasing? How many HAP properties have notices to quit of which it is aware? How many people are currently in homeless accommodation as a result of HAP properties being sold?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Up to 50 properties are currently being assessed. I have an overall figure but Mr. Ó Donnabháin might have more information. We currently have or have dealt with, we will say, 108 notices to quit to date. Mr. Ó Donnabháin might be able to confirm how many of them are HAP properties and how many of those would be sold.

How many people have gone into homeless accommodation as a result of their houses being sold?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Mr. Ó Donnabháin might have those figures. If not, we will come back to the Deputy if that is okay.

Does Mr. Ó Donnabháin wish to come in on those questions?

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

I do. We will have to come back on the specifics of it. To clarify, however, I will reference the fact that in 2021, 64 people were referred to our homeless services section, 40 of whom were valid and 24 of whom were invalid up to the end of August, showing the increase generally across the board.

(Interruptions).

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Ó Donnabháin; it is kind of difficult to hear. I wonder whether his microphone could be better placed.

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

Is that better?

We will try it.

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

There has been a significant increase in the number of notices to quit. Deputy Ó Broin asked exactly how many of those are HAP or otherwise. I would have to come back with the detail on that to give the committee the exact breakdown. In terms of what Deputy Gould asked, however, from our perspective, 50 properties are currently being assessed that would have originated from HAP or RAS terminations. We are assessing eligibility on the basis of that being valid. We are, therefore, going through that process and we will take those on a case-by-case basis.

I thank Mr. Ó Donnabháin. I have another few questions. How many staff work full-time in the derelict sites unit in Cork City Council? To how many properties does the €4.1 million that is outstanding in the derelict sites levy relate? To be fair, I must give credit to the council. In the past three years, there has been a huge improvement in derelict sites levies collected. I believe it went from 7% to above 30%. I want to get it higher. What are we going to do to get it higher? If the witnesses do not have that information, they can come back to us with it.

Ms Ann Doherty

I will invite Mr. Reidy to address that question if that is okay.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

We have three full-time staff in the vacant homes and derelict sites levy section. That team is augmented then by the teams of planners and technicians. We also have a multidisciplinary team across property, law, finance, housing and planning policy, which regularly meets to go through the derelict sites. My understanding is that the derelict site levy applies to approximately 65 sites. That would move from time to time as sites come on and off the register.

I thank Mr. Reidy. I have a huge issue with dereliction in Cork. Recently, the Good Shepherd Convent was burned down for the third time. I am talking about major fires. There have been dozens of fires on the site, which puts fire brigade officers and emergency services people at risk. There have been fires in the former Sunset Ridge Hotel, the St. Kevin's hospital site and Vita Cortex in the past and these are all derelict sites. Will the council be more aggressive? It said a CPO has been placed on 22 properties. All four of those however - definitely Good Shepherd convent, the Sunset Ridge Hotel and Vita Cortex - should be compulsorily purchased. There are 110 derelict sites on the council's derelict sites register. I reckon the figure is at least treble that. We need to be more aggressive with tackling these landholders who are destroying, and having negative impacts on, communities. People feel angry when people are homeless or fighting to keep a roof over their heads and then they see buildings that have been derelict for decades. Some buildings have been on the council's derelict sites register for the 32 years it was set up. Is the council going to be more aggressive in tackling dereliction?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

All those sites the Deputy mentioned are either at planning, have been sold or are at various stages of a process. I assure him that the team and myself have been engaging directly with the owners or representatives of the owners of those sites to see how they are going to advance. It speaks to an issue of viability across the city, not just on derelict sites but in the delivery of compact growth. That is just the bigger context.

On being more aggressive, the Deputy will be aware that since 2019, we have been implementing a strategy for dereliction. That has been robust and has yielded some results in working closely with owners and getting sites off the derelict sites register.

In 2023, we will bring property owners to court to pursue the derelict sites levies that are due. It is hard to filter that out, but we now have files we are preparing for court and we will look at business cases-----

I thank Mr. Reidy for that. I am conscious that my time is running out.

We still have a huge eyesore on North Main Street. It was a very dangerous building. We have other such buildings in the centre of Cork city. I do not understand how landlords let buildings get into that condition. The buck stops with Cork City Council. I do not want to see the likes of what has happened on North Main Street happen again.

How many people applied for the 32 properties in the development in Glanmire?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Just over 900.

This is the point I am making. Cork City Council delivered 32 properties in Ballinglanna and 75 on Lancaster Quay, and 1,800 people applied for one development and 900 for another. This shows that the Government targets are too low. That 1,800 people applied for 75 properties shows the interest in and the need for housing out there. This is not a criticism of Cork City Council because it is hitting every target, but the Government needs to give the council more resources to deliver what it is delivering.

I thank Deputy Gould and call Deputy McAuliffe.

I thank our witnesses. Deputy Gould is not normally half as positive when they are not here. They have brought a degree of cheer to this place. May I pursue Deputy Gould's final comment? He said the council would be able to do a lot more if the Government gave it more. Is that true?

Mr. Brian Geaney

It is as we said earlier. The targets are a minimum. We operate on that basis. That is the position as conveyed to us by the Department as well. In working out our targets with the Department we had very good engagement.

The Department is not doing anything to restrict the council on delivery.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Absolutely not.

Is there more the council needs?

Mr. Brian Geaney

To be fair, whether it be any scheme that is submitted, any staffing request we have put forward or anything else like that, by and large they are being sanctioned.

In advance of today's meeting I spoke to my Fianna Fáil colleagues on both local authorities represented today. From Cork's perspective, there was particular praise, particularly from Councillor Tony Fitzgerald, who talked about the regeneration in the north-west area, in Knocknaheeny and so on. There is a question as to whether the council is doing enough to deliver on affordable housing. I accept that we passed the legislation only 12 months ago, which means that the idea that houses would be available 12 months later is a literal impossibility.

Ms Ann Doherty

It is very important to note, though, that we were ahead of when-----

Yes. That is right.

Ms Ann Doherty

Through the bravery of the elected members who approved the €40 million loan, we proceeded to embark on the roll-out of a scheme that did not exist. We cannot-----

Absolutely. It was a pity more local authorities did not look at the timeline for that legislation and do exactly what Cork City Council did. I appreciate Ms Doherty's response.

From Galway's perspective, I will raise with the witnesses a number of site-specific matters before then coming back to more general points. As for the affordable housing on the Merlin Woods site, Galway City Council is still working on a suitable model. Where is the council with that?

Ms Patricia Philbin

We are starting to draft the scheme of priorities in respect of the affordable housing. Then we will move towards going out to tender. We have pretty much decided on the model we will go with. We have been engaging with both the Department and the housing delivery co-ordination office.

To follow on from my last point, is there a reason Galway City Council did not take the lead Cork took? I would be critical of my local authority for the same thing. Galway City Council is still developing the model but the legislation was published 12 months ago. Is there a reason Galway City Council did not do what Cork did and move ahead of the legislation?

Ms Patricia Philbin

There is no particular reason other than resources. We are resourcing up our team. Thankfully, we have got approval from the Department for a further five staff to go on the team. That would be fully funded by the Government, which is very welcome.

That is very welcome. Where are things with the affordable element of the Clybaun Road site?

Ms Patricia Philbin

The Clybaun Road site is at stage 1.

Has that stage 1 been submitted?

Ms Patricia Philbin

It has been.

Excellent. Has stage 1 been submitted for Ballyburke?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes, a stage 1 has gone in for Ballyburke, but we have not finalised the breakdown of the units between senior citizens etc.

There was some delay on the Garraí Beag site. There were to be 58 social housing units there. There was a change of developer. Where are things on that site?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Pre-qualification tenders are in. They are being assessed. Then we will go to full tender. We hope to have a contractor appointed early in the new year and then-----

Is Ms Philbin in a position, in a public forum, to go into the reasons for that switch?

Ms Patricia Philbin

No, we cannot.

That is a fair answer. Is there likely to be an increased cost to the overall delivery of the project as a result of switching tenders?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes, it is obvious that there will be. The contractor that was there quoted 2019 prices. There are additional design fees. We have met with the Department only in the past week and it is still very supportive of the scheme and any additional funding required.

Very good. I thank Ms Philbin. I did not want to turn the Oireachtas committee into an area committee, but that information is important. We are trying to see how local authorities are implementing Housing for All. Two years ago, much of the legislation, the multi-annual plan, the budget and so on just were not there. It is impressive to see local authorities respond to that. It is a significant scale-up of ambition, resources and so on. I compliment the local authorities on that.

One thing we are starting to see from these meetings with local authorities is the issue of viability. Could the witnesses talk to us about procurements for both social and affordable housing? Can they give us a ballpark figure for procuring units from the market? I am talking about a two-bedroom or a three-bedroom house.

Mr. Brian Geaney

As just a ballpark, and depending on the area, obviously, we are looking at €340,000 or €350,000, maybe, for a three-bedroom house and up into the low €400,000s for apartments.

The Dublin figures are not disproportionate then. We are getting similar figures for Dublin. Is that for both social and affordable purchase?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes. It will depend then on whether the land is bought through, say, the dialogue process or whether it is land owned by the council itself.

Do the local authorities have a significant amount of land that they are using for these projects?

Mr. Brian Geaney

No. The first affordable housing scheme in the country, Boherboy Road, was built on land owned by the council, with no debt on it. We have another 55 acre site which we will bring forward for planning for a mix of affordable and social housing soon after Christmas. That is a site at Old Whitechurch Road, which will take over 600 units. That is a project we are anxious to bring to construction next year.

That would knock a big hole in-----

Mr. Brian Geaney

The site has a significant debt attached to it, though.

The council will have to cost that into the final price.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes. We do that.

In the context of the affordable housing fund, certainly for affordable purchase, it is basically cost minus the amount that can be drawn down from the affordable purchase. If, therefore, a house is brought in at €350,000 or €400,000, do you get €50,000 at the moment off the local authority-----

Mr. Brian Geaney

It is linked to the density of the scheme. We have some schemes of the four where we have been able to get to €75,000 and we have another scheme where we will be able to draw down the full subsidy. That will be launched fairly shortly.

It could be between €275,000 and €325,000, then, for affordable purchase.

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes, depending on whether or not we have had to purchase the land.

I appreciate that. I thank the witnesses.

I have other Members on the list here but they are probably caught up in the Dáil or the Seanad, so I will just go with who we have in the room at the moment. I call on Senator Boyhan, after whom I will have a couple of questions, and then Senator Cummins.

Deputy Gould is on his feet in another venue.

I will go back to Ms Doherty and Cork City Council. The witnesses' responses have been very impressive. I thank Deputy McAuliffe in particular for some of his questions because they elicited very quickly a lot of very positive responses. It is important to acknowledge that.

I wish to recap on something. We talked about the derelict properties in Cork. The witnesses identified and told us about the ones that were in the council's ownership or in which the council had some involvement. Do the local authorities levy fines themselves or how does it work?

Ms Ann Doherty

I will invite Mr. Reid to explain that.

There is also the extent of those fines and whether they are due or have been paid.

Ms Ann Doherty

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Reidy, but it should be remembered that some of the properties we own are ones we have acquired through the CPO process.

I am talking about ones that the council did not acquire. I am just trying to zone in on-----

Ms Ann Doherty

I thought earlier. I am sorry to mislead Mr. Reidy, but the question is on the sites on the register that were ours historically.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

In response to Senator Boyhan's previous question, we have six sites for social and affordable housing that are included in this, from the derelict sites’ acquisitions. I think that is the question the Senator asked earlier. We do not invoice those sites. We do not add to the cost of trying to deliver social and affordable housing.

So the council is judge and jury in its own cause to a certain extent. The council administers fines or levies on derelict sites, but it does not pay them itself.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

That is correct.

Yet we know the council pays its own rates. Local authorities pay rates on properties they own. That is one of the anomalies in the local government finances. Is Mr. Reidy saying that for some reason local authorities do not levy themselves? I could see the logic in that.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

It would be a matter of paying ourselves, to pay ourselves, effectively.

But local authorities pay rates to themselves.

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

That is correct.

What is the difference between the two? How do local authorities draw a line?

Mr. Fearghal Reidy

There is an accommodation in the derelict sites legislation for sites that are advancing in terms of planning permissions, so that we can look at solutions there to help remove the dereliction.

Okay. We will park that for a moment although I am not convinced.

I think Ms Doherty agreed when I asked that she would provide the committee with information on the plans for those particular sites.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes.

I am also interested in hearing about the units that could be maximised.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes.

I would very much appreciate that as I think it would be helpful. I want to go back to something I said earlier, that it was a bit like an inquisition here at a committee. I asked about it earlier, but we did not come back to it as we did not have time.

I want to ask about the engagement of both Galway City Council and Cork County Council with the Department. How robust are the engagements with departmental officials? Ultimately this is Government policy. I see the witnesses are smiling so clearly there is some action. I am interested to hear about the engagement because I sometimes wonder how robust is the questioning. I will not use the word "interrogation" if the councils are not delivering their targets, given that the funding is clearly coming from the Department. The witnesses might agree that we have a very centralised local government system. We effectively have local administration. We do not really have a local government system with as much autonomy as it should have. That is only my view. The witnesses are the practitioners of it and they have a difficult job. I do not envy them in that regard. I genuinely think we are blessed with the quality of our chief executives across the 31 local authorities. I say that because it must be said. It is not an easy task. There are many challenges, and they are very diverse. Ms Doherty might tell me about her targets, how regularly there are reviews with the housing people and how does that go? Are she and her colleagues pulled up? She might just share that with the committee.

Ms Ann Doherty

Our colleagues in the Department have been very supportive. We have complementary and different roles. There are definitely two of them. Therefore, there are checks and balances in our system. We respect that. We are very fortunate that there is a very strong team now in the Department. They have reorganised themselves to work on the different elements of the Housing for All programme. Even yesterday, the affordable housing team was down with us. It was very microscopic-----

It is very proactive.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes, it is very positive. We are fortunate in the sense that we are achieving our targets. We are pushing to do more where we can. That is the conversation. I presume if the conversation was the other way around it would be equally robust.

That is grand. I thank Ms Doherty.

In terms of Galway, we know the city council is not going to deliver its targets for 2022. The numbers are way down. I am not critical of that. There are reasons for it and Ms Philbin pointed them out very well. How was that taken up by the Department with the council directly? Mr. McGrath is the chief executive of Galway City Council. The numbers are down and the council is unlikely to deliver them for 2022. I hope 2023 will be a better year for the council. How does the Department reconcile all that with him vice versa?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

First, we have a housing task force that is chaired by a former Secretary General of the Department. That meets at least four times a year. That is a combined city and county task force. We have a full in-depth review once a quarter of delivery, reasons for hold-up, the pipeline and various other issues. In addition, I echo what Ms Doherty says, our team has a very robust, good, positive relationship with the Department. There are regular reviews right across the board, whether it is to do with Traveller accommodation, homelessness, the delivery of social and affordable housing. The new structures in the Department lend themselves very well to that. Only last week for example, every local authority chief executive, plus my two colleagues here met with the Minister. We have had ongoing and frequent engagement with Ministers, from the previous Minister, Eoghan Murphy, to the current Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. There is very robust scrutiny. I assure the Senator that the Department asked why we were behind target. We explained it but, equally, there is a very robust pipeline there to make up the slack. I am extremely confident that when we get to the end of 2026, not only will we have met the targets, but we will have exceeded them on both the social and affordable side.

That is great. I thank Mr. McGrath very much.

I have a few questions. Both chief executives referred to the housing delivery action plan. Are they fully available on the website? They are. That is great.

We did a short briefing last week on the housing needs demand assessment, HNDA. I am interested to hear from both local authorities their view on how difficult a process this has been and what it has revealed to them. It seems to be taking a very evidence-based requirement for all types of housing. Is that the experience of the witnesses of it? Has it revealed something to them that they were not aware of before in the housing targets?

Mr. Brian Barrett

I might ask my colleague, Mr. Mahon, to lead, and then I will come in.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

It is not a process that we undertake directly in the housing department. It is undertaken as part of the development plan process. We are not directly involved in inputting the data, although we do get the report once it is produced. In terms of our own affordability targets, we have a figure of 1,000 and the HNDA produced a figure of 900. So they were fairly close in terms of what our estimation was based on pipeline, our estimated demand against the data that were produced as part of the HNDA process. I do not think there was any surprise that those numbers were fairly similar.

Regarding the overall need for social housing, it might have underplayed that somewhat in terms of the HNDA figure and what we estimated in terms of the overall demand. We are not going to provide every solution for every need over the next six years. This will extend beyond the 2022-26 period. Supply will be required going forward. It is not that we are going to meet every single need. On the affordability-constrained households, there was a fairly good correlation between what we would have estimated and what the report produced ultimately.

I thank Mr. Mahon. I might stay with him on that then. Was the same methodology used to determine the affordability figure, as was used in the HNDA? Is that the reason for the very close correlation?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

Yes. The delivery action plan was being produced somewhat in isolation from the HNDA, because they were two separate processes. It was a case of our 1,000 being an estimate, based on pipeline and estimate of supply with an eye to what we thought the actual demand for affordable was. The HNDA produced its own figure, but they were fairly close.

I thank Mr. Mahon. To clarify, in the HNDA figure for the social housing requirement, he said one underplayed, but I am not sure which one it was. Did one underestimate more than the other?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

I think our own figure might have underplayed it. The HNDA figure would have been higher.

That would have been higher. So that would have produced 1,500 of a demand for social housing. Our targets from the Department were 1,235, so we increased our anticipated supply up to that 1,400 figure, to bring it closer to the HNDA figure. If anything, the Department's targets were below the HNDA figure. Our ultimate figure was to bring it closer to that, if that makes sense.

I thank Mr. Mahon. I am conscious that it is a relatively new process. The council is not dealing with an exact science here and is trying to make a lot of estimates and use the data that is available to it to come up with an appropriate figure. That was for Galway. I put the same question to the other witnesses.

Ms Ann Doherty

I will ask Ó Donnabháin to come in on that.

Mr. Niall Ó Donnabháin

As Mr. Mahon has said, we have also been working from the Department's target. The HNDA, from our perspective-----

I must ask Mr. Ó Donnabháin to stop there because I am not picking the audio up clearly. I will move on in the questions because I just have two minutes left. With regard to the earlier question about activating land, how far advanced are both of the local authorities in their zoned land tax mapping exercise? Perhaps both of the councils could answer that.

Ms Ann Doherty

We are on target to send out the maps and the timescales before Christmas.

Is Galway on target?

Ms Patricia Philbin

Yes, we are working away on them. There are challenges with them around data sets and the exemptions within them. We are working towards the deadline of 1 November for publication.

There was a question earlier about long-term leasing arrangements that local authorities can enter into. When the council enters into those arrangements it frees up other homes so that people can right-size and can be matched to those long-term leases. When those houses then become voids, because somebody has left them, do the councils try to bring them back? A figure was given by one of the local authorities for trying to bring the property back to the full A2 rating. Do the councils try to do that with all of the houses as they become available? How do the councils decide that? What is the funding stream available to do that? I will ask the Galway officials first, and then Cork.

Ms Patricia Philbin

Mr. Mahon will address the long-term leasing. With our own voids we try to do all of the retrofitting once the property is vacant because it is easier to do it then. The challenge there is the funding that is available for this work. It does not actually meet the full cost of it, so some of the funding must come from our own operational budgets.

Mr. Dermot Mahon

We have not had any returns yet. That is the current position. We have not had that experience in relation to long-term leases. The properties are all still in lease and they have not actually expired yet. There is a cost on the local authority because once that term is up there will be a requirement to potentially spend some money upgrading the property to hand it back to the landlord, if it is his or her desire to receive the property back. We must make provision for a sinking fund for repairs to those types of units. There is an ongoing cost. We are responsible for the day-to-day repair and maintenance but there is also a sinking fund costs there which we must factor in.

Mr. Brian Geaney

From a Cork perspective, the vast majority of the units that are being done through social leasing are new A-rated units. They are currently occupied and there has not been any vacancy issues to date. Similarly, we will have a sinking fund to carry out any repairs that are necessary when those vacancies arise.

With regard to voids, it is the case that when we have energy retrofitting funding in place obviously we will do the full suite of measures. We are conscious about getting voids re-let very quickly. That is some work we might come back to later when the properties are tenanted.

I am out of time so I have one very quick question to put to both of the councils. If there was more funding available for bringing voids back into use, do the councils have voids on their books that they can bring into use?

Ms Patricia Philbin

We have voids, but again it comes back to the labour and trades. We ran a competition lately for plumbers and electricians, and there are very few available.

Mr. Brian Geaney

There are a number of properties that need significant work. Additional voids funding would be welcome.

I thank the witnesses.

I will take up where I left off on the last round of questions. I compliment Cork City Council on the right-sizing approach that the council has taken to deliver on developments. It is particularly welcome that the council has tried to include those in private stock, and not only the councils own stock. For the benefit of the committee, and for the record, so it can be shared with the local authorities, will the Mr. Geaney tell us how the council goes about that process? For the 30 units that the council delivered, it allocated ten of those - which is 33% of that stock - to accommodate from private supply. I assume that the council went out to do an expression of interest and explained the process and what it entailed for the individuals and for the council.

Mr. Brian Geaney

As the Senator has said, we now have what we call "right-sizing". Previously we had approved by the council, and we still have approved, a downsizing scheme. In this scheme to date we have gone out into the local community projects and promoted this scheme among private homeowners. Our councillors were really good and active in promoting the scheme in their own areas. Ultimately, when the expressions of interest were made, those were worked through. The right-sizing initiative has allowed us to go into other areas. Some of the Part 8 developments we had previously taken through the council have been difficult. We now have social housing in locations where the council would not otherwise have delivered social housing in those locations historically. We now have 35 units about to be completed in the Blackrock Road in Cork city. There would never have been social housing on Blackrock Road previously. There are also 24 units in Bishopstown Road. Again, these are all high demand areas.

Will Mr. Geaney talk me through it? If, for example, I am the owner of a property, I am 60 years of age and I am looking to get one of these properties on the Blackrock Road. Will Mr. Geaney talk the committee through what happens there?

Mr. Brian Geaney

The owner will make an expression of interest. If the owner is 60 years of age he or she will get two thirds of the market value of the property. As I have said, we can make available to the committee the scheme that we have approved by the council.

That would be useful.

Mr. Brian Geaney

People are shown the development as it is nearing completion. The conveyancing process is worked through, and people are facilitated at every opportunity with the move that is ultimately made.

And the council then gives them a secure tenancy for the rest of their days?

Mr. Brian Geaney

For the rest of their days, and they would pay a differential rent.

That is based on their income?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes.

Does it also depend on their age?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes, depending on the age. The older the person is then the more money the person will get for the property on the basis that the term of the tenancy would be that bit shorter.

How does the council select those ten? Was the council oversubscribed for this?

Mr. Brian Geaney

We were oversubscribed for the first initiative. There may have been some people who wanted to bring adult children with them to the developments, for example. We did not allow that for the scheme. It was through an interview process. Some might have said that they were going to wait for another development in the area. It has proved very successful for us to date and we have a lot of interest in the developments that are under construction at the moment.

Okay. I have to compliment the council. It is very interesting how this has been delivered. There is a 71-unit development in Waterford city that is specifically geared for older persons. This is what I am trying to tease out with my council. What percentage of that development should be made available for those who have private homes versus right-sizing within their own stock, and the new people who are on the list who are above the age of 50? I will take that information from Mr. Geaney and I would appreciate it if Cork City Council could perhaps liaise with Waterford City and County Council on that.

We were teasing out the viability of the PRS and the opportunities that were there. Going back to some of the targets, Mr. Geaney said there would be 135 affordable homes this year. Are those solely the council's or is the LDA tied into them as well?

Mr. Brian Geaney

That is solely Cork City Council, on four sites.

What is the LDA delivering? Are they the units that are being delivered in Cork County? I apologise if I offended anyone by not knowing the boundary.

Mr. Brian Geaney

The ones the Senator is referencing are in County Cork, in Mallow. The LDA has a scheme at St. Kevin's where the enabling works have commenced.

The expected delivery timeline-----

Mr. Brian Geaney

It will be in phases, probably 24 or 25.

I am sorry, I had to nip out to another meeting. Senator Cummins should not compliment the witnesses too much because we need to make sure we keep the pressure on them. As was alluded to earlier, Cork City Council in particular is meeting what is expected of it and surpassing targets. I would like the witnesses' opinion on the affordable social mix in the city. It is something I would speak about regularly. Do they think we have hit the right mix in the city so far with the ratio of social to affordable? Should we be increasing or decreasing on one side or the other? If so, why?

Mr. Brian Geaney

People are talking about a housing crisis since 2015. It has obviously taken a while for local authorities to build a pipeline. We now have a very significant pipeline to deliver on social housing. We have the affordable housing scheme in place. As referenced earlier, in 2020 we had a borrowing facility of €40 million available to finance some of the schemes and get them up and running. We want to be doing more affordable housing and I think we will. We are going to build that pipeline like we built that social housing pipeline. There also needs to be a mix of purely private housing in the city that is more affordable because we want to get more mixed tenure into the city. We want to get some of those planning permissions that are in place activated for people who want to live and work in the city, to provide a long-term home on a stable basis.

I have a question about the site the council commenced itself, the one in Mayfield on Boherboy Road. I am not sure if Mr. Geaney had a chance to come back in on that after Deputy Gould spoke, while I was gone. If not, could he elaborate on how that scheme worked and the steps the council had to take to get out early?

Mr. Brian Geaney

It was land that we had in city council ownership and in the jurisdiction of Cork County Council at the time. We had to apply for planning permission to Cork County Council. It was appealed to An Bord Pleanála, which granted planning permission for 153 houses, 37 of which are social. Timing was everything. We got out early. We used the serviced sites fund, as it was known at the time, that has now been replaced by the affordable housing fund. We applied to the Department for funding. We used the competitive dialogue process to engage with the market and we selected a contractor who is now on site. There are 37 units to be completed this year and 80 units next year, at a price of €217,500 for a two-bed and €243,000 for a three-bed. We have launched a scheme. There are expressions of interest and those applications are currently being assessed.

Mr. Geaney mentioned having planning applications approved in the pipeline but not started yet. Can he give us an indication of how many sites, or even how many applications or units, are affected by that?

Mr. Brian Geaney

There are 7,500 units that have planning permission through the SHD process that have not been activated, plus another 500 units, giving 8,000 in total. From an apartment perspective, many of these are located in and around the city centre. We need to get those units on site and activated as quickly as possible.

What is the single greatest barrier? Is it construction costs? Is it just the climate we are in?

Mr. Brian Geaney

There is an issue with viability when constructing apartments in the city. Cork is not unique in that. Through the various schemes involving the LDA or cost rental, notwithstanding the current restraints with the interest rate increase, we are hoping developers will engage with the LDA, with us and with the AHBs with a view to getting those sites to construction. We also want to get some private housing as part of that, which is really important.

I have two more questions but I am not sure how much time I have left.

I did not start the clock so the Deputy is on his honour here. It is about Cork so I will let him away with it.

I just have two questions. I am going to keep it to Cork again, unfortunately.

Does the Deputy have a particular interest in Cork?

I do, yes. The single stage process is a bugbear of mine. There are different avenues of funding. I know there is an element of risk with a single stage process in the city. I ask Mr. Geaney to elaborate on what the issue is with that process within the local authority.

Mr. Brian Geaney

It is not a process we have utilised to date. It would hold some risk for local authorities if a project went wrong or if the costs increased during the procurement process. The competitive dialogue process we are using is a two-stage process and we are using that very successfully. We are engaging with the market and partnering with contractors through the Part 8 system, getting developments approved through our own council and then going to site once the project cost has not changed. We are able to look at the four-stage process but we have accommodated that down to a two-stage process with the Department and the Department has approved that.

I promise this is my last question. When the Croí Cónaithe scheme was initially launched it was for towns and villages and within the curtilage of those towns and villages. The Minister has spoken about extending it into rural and urban areas. Where is the council at with that? Have the witnesses been given any clarification on it?

Mr. Brian Geaney

The Minister has said the that is going to be extended into city areas. It will assist but given the way construction projects have gone and the cost of construction, we would suggest that it needs to be a higher level of subvention than what is currently in place. If the scheme is extended to the cities, we will obviously embrace that and promote it.

We have 12 minutes left if Deputy Ó Broin and Deputy Gould want to share that between them.

I thank all of the witnesses for all their answers. Apologies, I had to step out for a little bit of work. I know it is a long meeting but the information they have given us is genuinely valuable so I hope they do not feel we are having them here under sufferance. I have one request and two questions. This committee is doing a separate piece of work trying to understand housing need and demand assessment. If both councils were in a position to give a short note to the committee secretariat explaining the specific local inputs in their two local authority areas, particularly the affordability challenge but also any other specific information about social housing, that would be great. I only need something very short; I know the witnesses are very busy.

In response to Deputy Higgins and Deputy Ó Cuív, some figures were given out for the social housing waiting lists. I suspect Cork might have given us a net list figure and Galway might have given us a gross list figure but I could be wrong. Generally, the city councils do not do gross housing need. That is a wonderful thing I discovered when I was in with some smaller local authorities a while back. It is a brilliant thing. For clarity, if both councils know their net and gross needs, I ask them to explain the difference for the slow learners on this side of the room. That would be helpful.

Mr. Brian Geaney

For clarity, our figure of 4,823 does not include HAP or RAS recipients.

If they were included, would we be looking at a total of 7,500 to 8,000 households?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes, the total would include close to another 4,000 households.

The split is approximately 50:50 in terms of the council list-plus. This point is important because it is not common practice for all local authorities to present their elected members with a gross and net need. Having a gross need figure is a really useful tool. When the Housing Agency publishes its summary of housing needs assessments, which it will do again later this year, it only gives us the net need, that is, the number of people who are on housing lists. From the point of view of planning and targeting, particularly when the private rental sector is shrinking, it is helpful to know what the gross need is, which would include people in receipt of HAP and RAS. Some local authorities even include their transfer lists in their gross need. It is a very useful tool.

My second question goes back to targets and whether or not they have been missed. I fully understand that every project is different and there are things that are out of people's control. I am interested to know what happens when targets are missed. Under the previous Government's plan, targets were missed for a variety of reasons in 2020 and 2021 and the missed units seem just to have dropped off the picture. When Ms Philbin was answering the questions from Deputy Higgins, she seemed to suggest that if Galway City Council was not going to meet either the Department's figure or its own target for a given year, the expectation is that the council would try to roll that shortfall in and meet it by the end of the five years. Is it the case that under the previous Government's plan, missed targets were just missed targets? Is there a requirement or request now from the Department that if a target is missed in one year or another, the expectation for social housing is that the overall target over the five years will be met? I am interested in hearing from the representatives of both councils on that. When we asked people from the Department about it recently, they were not sure of the answer.

That is a mischaracterisation. The officials clearly said councils would have to make up the shortfall. I will be very surprised if the witnesses from the councils say otherwise.

It was I who asked the question and that is my interpretation of the answer. There was not clarity in the response.

Ms Patricia Philbin

We have an overall target to meet within the lifetime of the delivery plan. It might not fall exactly right within specific years but we have an overall target to meet.

That is very good news. I presume then that when the council reports back to its elected members, the reporting mechanism will reflect that? I take it, then, that what is in the December housing delivery action plans is one thing but the figures are adjusted by councils as they move through the year?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

The rigidity of the calendar year is not a good tool for judging this. Galway City Council will be judged on its delivery at the end of the period. We are confident we will meet the target and exceed it. If we miss our target this year, we have to do better next year. I am old enough and long enough in the system to remember when we had multi-annual housing programmes that were predicated exactly on that basis. We have carried that on into both Rebuilding Ireland and now Housing for All.

The previous Government's housing plan expired in 2021. From that plan, 6,000 or so units were missed across the State over the final two years. Those 6,000 units have not been added into anything else. The councils have a separate set of targets they have agreed with the Department under the new plan and if those targets are missed, they will be rolled in and carried forward. However, the missed targets from the past two years are kind of lost. Does Mr. McGrath agree that is a fair read of the situation?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

No, I do not totally agree with that. Mr. Mahon may wish to say more. We need to bear in mind that 2020 was part of the Covid period.

My point is not to criticise the lost targets, which happened for a bunch of reasons. It is more about wanting to understand the transition from one plan to another and what happened to the very considerable number of units, numbering 6,000 between 2020 and 2021 across a range of local authorities, that were lost. Where do they go? Are they subsumed into the new targets, added to the new targets or lost?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

I may be able to answer that question for the Deputy. If we look at our targets over the five-year period, we have a higher delivery target for 2022, which is the 305 figure. The number then drops to 219 for next year and it is 224 for the following year and 241 for the next. It is higher this year to reflect missed targets in the previous years. Those missed targets in 2020 have been carried forward into our targets for 2022. They have not been lost as such. Our projection and anticipated delivery is higher in the first year of Housing for All to make up for lost delivery in the two previous years.

My observation is not specific to Galway City Council but is a general one. If we take the social housing target in the first year of the Housing for All plan, it is approximately 9,000 units for the new-build programme, whereas Rebuilding Ireland was to end in 2021 with delivery of 10,000 units. Even though there was a significant loss of units from the targets in 2020 and 2021, the new targets, from 2022 and for a couple of years thereafter, are lower than what was in the Fine Gael-led Government's previous national development plan, which had a figure of 10,000 a year. The maths does not add up in that way. It might add up for an individual local authority such as Galway City Council but, nationally, we are dropping down to 9,000 for a couple of years and then building up to the 10,000 social housing units midway through the current plan. Does that make sense?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

I cannot speak for the figures nationally. We can only comment on our own individual targets. There is a higher delivery in year one to reflect missed targets in the previous two years and then it levels off in years two to five in the figures that are issued to us. As Ms Philbin and Mr. McGrath mentioned, we ultimately will be measured on our delivery against those targets. While the numbers this year will not reach target, the pipeline will exceed the targets for both 2023 and 2024. We will make up this year's shortfall in the next two years.

I thank the witnesses and apologise for taking more time than I should have done.

I have a question for the representatives from both local authorities. It is the same question I asked the witnesses last week. As my party's spokesperson on addiction recovery and well-being, I was contacted by a person who is in recovery for six months and has been taken off the housing list. I am not sure whether it is a case of being taken completely off it or suspended. Is this a policy councils are implementing? Do the witnesses agree that a person who is in recovery should remain on the housing list?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Yes, if a person's housing need has not changed, I see no reason he or she should come off the list.

I appreciate that. What is the position with Galway City Council?

Mr. Brian Barrett

It would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. If the housing need is there, people should stay on the list.

I am asking specifically about the situation where a person has a housing need and is on the list and then he or she goes into recovery. It could be argued that because people are in recovery, their housing need has changed. Our argument, however, is that within three or six months, they will be out of recovery and will still need housing. The witnesses are suggesting this is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I am looking for a commitment from all local authorities that people in that situation will be kept on the housing list. The witnesses are nodding. That is great.

My other question relates to voids and boarded-up houses. Having spoken about this issue with people in Cork City Council, I have long advocated that local authorities should be able to turn voids around as quickly as possible without having to send a list up to the Department. The requirement to do so is only red tape and bureaucracy. Do the witnesses think they would be able to turn voids around faster and reduce their number more quickly if they had the authority to do so and then to claim the money back from the Department afterwards without having to go through hoops?

Mr. Brian Geaney

We have a significant void repair programme under way-----

Is it not the case that councils must apply to the Department for approval?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Any reduction in red tape is always welcome. Everyone on this side of the table would agree with that.

What is the view of Galway City Council?

Mr. Dermot Mahon

We would not disagree with that.

That is great.

I am conscious of time but want to ask another question. In August this year, there were 104 first-time applicants to Cork City Council's housing list. When I was on the council, going back to 2019 or 2020, there was an average of some 1,200 families per year coming onto the local authority list. If we look at the amount of social housing being developed, even with Cork City Council doing great work, the number of people coming onto the list means the housing crisis will continue to worsen. I always advocated that the only way to tackle the housing crisis is by ensuring housing delivery exceeds the number of new applicants. That should be the minimum target each year. I am not sure what the figures are for Galway City Council in this regard. Do the witnesses think this would be a credible target to put in place?

Does Mr. Geaney think that would be a credible target?

Mr. Brian Geaney

Again, our targets are ambitious but we feel we can achieve them. The targets are a minimum and obviously where we can, we will deliver more. We are engaging with many different sites across the city to get them activated and decided on. That will continue and we will always try to do more.

I have two further questions if the witnesses can answer, allowing for time constraints. Is there a timeline for the completion of the Knocknaheeny west quarter regeneration and can Mr. Geaney supply us with a rough estimate of its completion date? I went to the first meeting on this project in September 2000 and now 22 years later, it is still ongoing.

The other question relates to vacancy levels in Cork. Eight of the top ten areas with highest levels of vacancy are on the north side. Will that be tackled? Is there a plan in place to tackle vacancy on the north side of the city? I thank everyone for their answers. It has been a really in-depth discussion and it was great to get the knowledge and to hear about the great work local authorities are doing. What we want to do here is to help local authorities to deliver housing so anything we can do, we will. We have differences politically but as a committee, that is our goal.

I thank Deputy Gould for finishing on that positive note. Just to clarify, there are a number of requests for further information. If Mr. Ó Donnabháin is still there, there was a question about the affordability figure and how the demand for affordability was configured. There is a question on notices-to-quit, in relation to housing assistance payment, HAP, figures; and a question for Mr. Geaney on the right-sizing scheme. If he could send details of this scheme to the committee we will make sure that goes to the right place.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

I know we are nearly finished but I want to say as a practitioner that the Derelict Sites Act 1990 is a very clunky piece of legislation and it needs to be looked at. Where local authorities do section 10 housing, one would hope the upcoming legislation and changes there will impose timelines for those. Timelines are there for strategic housing developments, SHDs, but not for local authority-led developments; which is not just housing incidentally.

We will have a number of sessions on the review of the planning system so if there are areas within planning that Mr. McGrath thinks should be brought to the attention of the committee, we would welcome that engagement from him and the other witnesses, who are front-line practitioners in planning and work on it every day of the week.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Just to say from a recruitment point of view, this is not unique to local authorities. There is a recruitment issue for the general public sector and local authorities are not immune from that. We say that to try to be helpful to the committee's deliberations because it impacts on the totality of what the committee is about.

On section 10s, what kind of timelines are we looking at?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Well firstly it is the complexity. If you are trying to manage a city like Galway which is 8 km wide by 5 km north to south and everything is within 2 km of an special area of conservation, SAC, a national heritage area, NHA, or a special protection area, SPA, everything is almost a section 10 to An Bord Pleanála. We have two current examples, one project that is probably approaching 18 months now, which consists of 83 homes-----

That is remarkable.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

-----and we have another one which is under review since June.

I think many of us are aware of delays for very large complex projects. I appreciate what Mr. McGrath is saying about those with proximity to special areas of conservation, but for the board to take so long to make a decision on such small residential developments is remarkable.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

If I could give a simple example, I am trying to put a set of ball-stop nets up behind a GAA pitch adjoining a SAC and that means an environmental impact assessment report, EIAR, and a section 10.

How long has it been with the board?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

It is not there yet.

That is a good point and I thank Mr. McGrath for raising it.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

It is not just the Galway City Ring Road or the Galway cross-city link, it is those other developments where there are not timelines.

It would be useful in the context of those future deliberations that the other local authorities that are not here are invited to make comment on the same. If there are examples like that, we need to know about them.

What I sense is that it is the amount of time it takes to get the direction rather than to carry a direction because a project is in proximity to very sensitive area that is the problem.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

If you want to do a development that adjoins an SAC and if you straddle two bird nesting seasons and everything else, it can take 18 months to do a full environmental impact assessment.

I understand but we are in a crisis in terms of biodiversity, species loss and environmental degradation so it is good that these environmental impact assessments are carried out. If the timelines were correct, would that satisfy Mr. McGrath's needs?

Mr. Brendan McGrath

The use of compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, was talked about. If a CPO goes to arbitration, you cannot buy it by agreement and you do not know until the arbitration is complete what the bottom line is. You might not be back at this committee but you might be back at the one next-door trying to explain how-----

Given that the Department will not agree the actual figure that will be refunded until the very end of the process, it is a big risk for a manager to take.

Just on the CPOs which is something we have discussed.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

By the way, the Derelict Sites Act is not a CPO, it is a vesting order procedures which is a different animal.

Ms Ann Doherty

I thank the committee for having us. I recall our last trip here on 17 October 2018. Today is 18 October 2022. It is interesting that some of the same issues such as viability and activation have come up. One of the things we focused on the last time as well was - and I do not want to get into a constitutional discussion - land ownership. That is something that may be significant. We flagged that the last time as well. It was interesting pulling out the details of our last meeting and having a read of it.

Four of these meetings have been set up with the four Dublin local authorities and the four other cities. We propose to put together a report and will probably engage further with other local authorities. It is up to the members to decide on that. The engagement with the witnesses who are working on these issues is very helpful.

Ms Ann Doherty

The issues of the cities are different and it is great that is recognised.

I thank Ms Doherty and all her staff for their attendance and also to Mr. McGrath and his staff that attended online. I thank the witnesses for the work they are doing and for their attendance at the committee today.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.07 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 25 October 2022.
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